AP- on the edge of destruction!!

[fmhealth]

Yesterday, the AZ Republic published an article on the possible demise of TUP. Today, a similar article saw the light of day in a Chicago paper. Everyday there's more & more bad news concerning the ongoing viability of racing. I think we all know how this story ends.

Be Well,
fmhealth

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/20170807/rozner-illinois-bumbles-while-horse-racing-crumbles

[JustRalph]

Yesterday, the AZ Republic published an article on the possible demise of TUP. Today, a similar article saw the light of day in a Chicago paper. Everyday there's more & more bad news concerning the ongoing viability of racing. I think we all know how this story ends.

Be Well,
fmhealth

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/20170807/rozner-illinois-bumbles-while-horse-racing-crumbles

Yes we do! People will continue to bet

[ReplayRandall]

Yesterday, the AZ Republic published an article on the possible demise of TUP. Today, a similar article saw the light of day in a Chicago paper. Everyday there's more & more bad news concerning the ongoing viability of racing. I think we all know how this story ends.

Be Well,
fmhealth

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/20170807/rozner-illinois-bumbles-while-horse-racing-crumbles

It's called CONTRACTION.....No problem from where I stand.

[CincyHorseplayer]

It's called CONTRACTION.....No problem from where I stand.

Absolutely. It will hurt some of us when racing gets yanked in our neck of the woods but it will be better off in the long run IMO.

[fmhealth]

Find it unseemly to correct my friend Tony Perillo, GM of AP but his numbers are somewhat off. Nine years ago CHDN was selling at $38.00, today it's trading at $194.00. I'd say shareholders, of which I number, are very pleased with their ROI. Including the dividends, this stock is up over 300% during this period.

If CHDN eventually sells this property, as if appears they will, another 20% is easily achievable.

Be Well,
fmhealth

[thaskalos]

In the north and northwest Chicago-area suburbs...Arlington Park is the only food-serving facility with a liquor license that doesn't have slots. In that area, even the nickle-and-dime hamburger joints have slot machines...or they are on the waiting list to get them in the near future. But Arlington Park has been steadfastedly denied slots...because the Illinois politicians are supposedly AGAINST widespread casino gambling in the state.

In the meantime...the slots are in every tavern and fast-food joint that you can find...and the moron customers flock to these places, where a hot dog and fries often costs them upwards of $500. :ThmbUp:

[thaskalos]

It's called CONTRACTION.....No problem from where I stand.

I see a BIG problem. With the emergence of the racinos...the very tracks that should be "contracted" are among the most profitable ones around. Penn National and Parx are the crookedest tracks in the country, and should be the FIRST to get shut down for the betterment of the sport...but their thriving casino businesses guarantee that they are both here to STAY.

[ReplayRandall]

I see a BIG problem. With the emergence of the racinos...the very tracks that should be "contracted" are among the most profitable ones around. Penn National and Parx are the crookedest tracks in the country, and should be the FIRST to get shut down for the betterment of the sport...but their thriving casino businesses guarantee that they are both here to STAY.

Not to worry, as at some point PA state legislators will decouple racing from the casinos, then you'll see no more racing......It'll happen, a sure thing..;)

[olddaddy]

I see a BIG problem. With the emergence of the racinos...the very tracks that should be "contracted" are among the most profitable ones around. Penn National and Parx are the crookedest tracks in the country, and should be the FIRST to get shut down for the betterment of the sport...but their thriving casino businesses guarantee that they are both here to STAY.


And Parx and Penn National are dumps, Arlington is a jewel in all respects except the poly course.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

Not to worry, as at some point PA state legislators will decouple racing from the casinos, then you'll see no more racing......It'll happen, a sure thing..;)


I was talking about this today and have thought this for a while now, but think the precedent will be set in Florida. I know the FTBOA has been fighting this for a while, but other states should take notice. It really comes down to a matter of when, not if.

When it does, we will have contraction. Major circuits should still be around for the most part, it is the smaller tracks that serve as feeders that will be the real issue when they close. Sure, some of these horses will move to other tracks but if people think the foal crop is an issue now, wait till this happens.

Add to that, I dont know of anyone that became a fan of racing by visiting an OTB. Most get exposed to the live product and become life long fans. Those that are not lucky enough to grow up in an area with major tracks will not be exposed, then we will have a real issue sustaining the customer base.

[Valuist]

Legalized sports betting will be the final nail in the coffin. And its hard to feel sorry for the sport of horse racing. They wanted the band aid, short-term fixes. They never listened to the public.

[thespaah]

Not to worry, as at some point PA state legislators will decouple racing from the casinos, then you'll see no more racing......It'll happen, a sure thing..;)

About Pennsylvania..With the confiscatory 32% take out on vertical bets of three or more and all horizontal wagers, it is a miracle anyone with half a brain bets horses in that state.
If the geniuses in Harrisburg ever get around to decoupling casino gaming and horse racing. The industry at least on the Thoroughbred side is dead.

[cj]

About Pennsylvania..With the confiscatory 32% take out on vertical bets of three or more and all horizontal wagers, it is a miracle anyone with half a brain bets horses in that state.
If the geniuses in Harrisburg ever get around to decoupling casino gaming and horse racing. The industry at least on the Thoroughbred side is dead.

I don't mind playing Parx on Mon/Tue, I just don't play anything other than W, DD, or EX.

[Prioress Ply]

Legalized sports betting will be the final nail in the coffin. And its hard to feel sorry for the sport of horse racing. They wanted the band aid, short-term fixes. They never listened to the public.

Exactly right.

[jdhanover]

More contraction, yes. Extinction...I don't see that for a loooong time, hopefully not in my lifetime.

Legalized sports betting will hurt but not kill IMO. There is a different 'rush' from betting horses than games.

I could see about 1/3 of the current tracks fold in the next decade but I think that is the stabilization point. That would lead to fuller fields too. Some tracks make no sense to keep running, at least without slots (e.g., Arapahoe Park - too small, Aqueduct - just run BEL/SAR, etc) but others do.

There is still a lot of money bet each year on horse racing. The big money in the game could bet sports today if they wanted to.

[SuperPickle]

Legalized sports betting will be the final nail in the coffin. And its hard to feel sorry for the sport of horse racing. They wanted the band aid, short-term fixes. They never listened to the public.

This is 100% correct. Sports betting will be everywhere when it comes. Almost like the lottery. It'll be the thing that takes 15-40% of handle and pushes out all the tracks gasping for air (Finger Lakes, Monmouth, Arlington, Turf Paradise, Hazel.)

The initial implementation with cull the heard. Then if and when they get to Euro style operations (online, prop, in-play) then its over. When we get to the point in this country that you can bet an NFL or NBA game in-play sitting on your couch its all she wrote.

[CincyHorseplayer]

I'm not buying the extinction theory. Regionally horses would go to one or two places if other tracks shut down. Right now minor league horses around me are competing at Indiana Downs, Belterra Park, Thistledown, and Ellis. As much as I hate to say it my hometown track could go. They are sorry ass bunch. In the first year of the Racino they slashed purses midway through the meet and the facility total F-in sucks. They have a damn canopy cover on the tiny grandstand. It's pathetic. They've written the same condition book for nearly 20 years except they edited out races that would attract better barns/horses so it's basically welfare for Ohio horsemen with the sorriest horses. Even in my state of Ohio the horses that would ship north to Thistledown would make their races better just by adding the winning types. Thistledown by the way is at least trying. They increased their purses after their first racino season and did it again last year I believe. Anyway contraction would be welcome. It would work IMO.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

I'm not buying the extinction theory. Regionally horses would go to one or two places if other tracks shut down. Right now minor league horses around me are competing at Indiana Downs, Belterra Park, Thistledown, and Ellis. As much as I hate to say it my hometown track could go. They are sorry ass bunch. In the first year of the Racino they slashed purses midway through the meet and the facility total F-in sucks. They have a damn canopy cover on the tiny grandstand. It's pathetic. They've written the same condition book for nearly 20 years except they edited out races that would attract better barns/horses so it's basically welfare for Ohio horsemen with the sorriest horses. Even in my state of Ohio the horses that would ship north to Thistledown would make their races better just by adding the winning types. Thistledown by the way is at least trying. They increased their purses after their first racino season and did it again last year I believe. Anyway contraction would be welcome. It would work IMO.


I agree. I think alot depends on timing as well. Racinos have been around for some time now. There is alot of cross over into other areas of gambling by horse players but not vice versa. You would think handle would have dropped off the board with the casino cannibalizing our customer base. I still think it has, but the customers that the casinos have taken have now been replaced by the CRW outfits. So while handle has been stagnant or crept up a bit, alot has to do with the robots.

Alot will depend on how sports betting is rolled out. Monmouth, for example, estimates it could do something like $300 million a year in sports betting with around 3% going to purses which would certainly help in the short term. If sports betting is limited to B&M locations at first and given their split of on/off track handle, I dont think it will have that much bottom line impact to racing. If/when it moves to an online platform, that will hurt. If other jurisdictions can do the same, then it could really hurt. Given how long it takes things to get done in this industry, it could take a while.

[betovernetcapper]

For at least 20 years AP has threatened to close, if they didn't get the best racing dates, or a casino or whatever. If this time they do close, so what? It's part of Crapnet & I haven't bet there in years.
BTW each spring there has been the same story about exciting new stables with great horses and every year it's been the same old crowd with a lot of state bred races. Let them go & give the dates to Hawthorn. They are pretty decent people & I'm sure if they had the summer dates they could make it work.
Over the years AP has opposed Internet betting, rebates an anything else that would bring in business. Who needs them?

[wisconsin]

For at least 20 years AP has threatened to close

They DID close in 1998 and 1999.

[Hapman]

For at least 20 years AP has threatened to close, if they didn't get the best racing dates, or a casino or whatever. If this time they do close, so what? It's part of Crapnet & I haven't bet there in years.
BTW each spring there has been the same story about exciting new stables with great horses and every year it's been the same old crowd with a lot of state bred races. Let them go & give the dates to Hawthorn. They are pretty decent people & I'm sure if they had the summer dates they could make it work.
Over the years AP has opposed Internet betting, rebates an anything else that would bring in business. Who needs them?

Except no one wants to go to Hawthorne. AP is packed with well-off young families every weekend no matter how bad the product is. If you could get slots and get better purses and better fields too it would be the best option for the state going forward. The industry is almost completely dead though this is assuming there's a miracle and they can finally pass the damn slots. Otherwise there won't be even one track left here.

Overall, the sport needs to attract a younger generation and a place like AP is certainly far more up to the task than Hawthorne.

[illinoisbred]

Except no one wants to go to Hawthorne. AP is packed with well-off young families every weekend no matter how bad the product is. If you could get slots and get better purses and better fields too it would be the best option for the state going forward. The industry is almost completely dead though this is assuming there's a miracle and they can finally pass the damn slots. Otherwise there won't be even one track left here.

Overall, the sport needs to attract a younger generation and a place like AP is certainly far more up to the task than Hawthorne.

I live 20 some miles from Arlington but have not been there nor wagered on a race at that track in 3 years. From what a close friend that still almost daily attends Arlington tells me, the track has become a destination for hipsters. The track also plans many nonracing events on weekends (held though while racing is in progress) that appeal to hipsters. Betting must not be hip...hipsters haven't pushed a lot of money through the windows.

[Robert Fischer]

Wanted to bet against Oscar Performance, but they botched it.


Only 6 horses in the whole field , and it's sandwiched between a mediocre allowance, and a synth allowance that happens to be called a stake (bruce d).

not cool, Arlington

[Tom]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I98KeKV_F9g

Arlington needs a theme song...

Look at all the tracks, running today.
How many tracks, you gonna play?
They all got starting gates, but none are fillin'
You check with equibase, just to see who's still in.
It's a five horse race, so don't forget to bet place,
But you tell me over and over and over again my friend,
Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.

The handle's down, the take out is rising,
Not a lot of good news, on the horizon.
You want to make a bet but what's the sense in playing
No one wants the lead, is all I'm saying.
And the timner's on the fritz, and that's where it's staying,
But you tell me over and over and over again my friend,
Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.

[thaskalos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I98KeKV_F9g

Arlington needs a theme song...

Look at all the tracks, running today.
How many tracks, you gonna play?
They all got starting gates, but none are fillin'
You check with equibase, just to see who's still in.
It's a five horse race, so don't forget to bet place,
But you tell me over and over and over again my friend,
Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.


Give the man a Grammy! :ThmbUp:

[burnsy]

That's hilarious Tom , Eve of Destruction.

Its just fiction though, the game is thriving.......according to some. :lol:

[Tom]

The game can thrive and still not benefit the customers.

[thaskalos]

The game can thrive and still not benefit the customers.

Only as long as the customers have "money to burn". When things get tight...the game stops "thriving".

[Robert Fischer]

They couldn't card a full field for the Secretariat, and they couldn't put the Secretariat in their multi-race sequence of Stakes, and now, in the current joke of a field, Oscar Performance isn't even the heavy false favorite he was supposed to be. (Too small of a field, and not enough dumb money tuning in).


PASS.

[GMB@BP]

They couldn't card a full field for the Secretariat, and they couldn't put the Secretariat in their multi-race sequence of Stakes, and now, in the current joke of a field, Oscar Performance isn't even the heavy false favorite he was supposed to be. (Too small of a field, and not enough dumb money tuning in).


PASS.

will have to see the pace figures but that looked pretty legit

[burnsy]

The game can thrive and still not benefit the customers.


Bingo! Just citing handle numbers and attendance on the rare, few biggest days does not mean the customers are happy. The people that support the game all the time are not the same people that bet on Derby day or Whitney Day.

Your song was not just funny, its spot on. The real horse player, loyal customers want fields with more than 5 horses and the take out to decrease not increase. Then, you have people in this industry that mock the customer. They don't want to "hear" about the state of racing. Well, if your customers are complaining and they see a problem......you better see it too......or you are on the eve of destruction.

Quoting numbers from Saratoga....just about the only place crushing it, or Breeders Cup Days does not mean a thing.........if things keep going at this pace....the day will come when that erodes too. Just a matter of time. When the best customers are saying the product is going down hill and costing too much, how are you going to attract new people? Ain't gonna happen. Half of these younger people that show up, are doing everything the track offers except betting. And, once the "big day" is over they are gone until next year.

[betovernetcapper]

Except no one wants to go to Hawthorne. AP is packed with well-off young families every weekend no matter how bad the product is. If you could get slots and get better purses and better fields too it would be the best option for the state going forward. The industry is almost completely dead though this is assuming there's a miracle and they can finally pass the damn slots. Otherwise there won't be even one track left here.

Overall, the sport needs to attract a younger generation and a place like AP is certainly far more up to the task than Hawthorne.


AP offers petting zoos & clowns & such to attract young suburban families. These people as a group don't bet much. Even if they want to bet, it's hard if your trying to keep track of 3 rug rats. The future of racing isn't in track attendance, it's in Internet betting which AP has opposed consistently. They are all ready getting 17% on win bets, 21% on exactas & 25% on trifectas, pick 3s & pick 4s + breakage and an admittance fee. Additionally they get $4-5 dollars for a glass of draft beer that costs them a quarter and about the same amount for a hot dog which costs them a similar amount. If you can't show a profit under these circumstances, the slots aren't going to help.

RE Haw, I always found it a pleasant place with nice people. It's also across the street from the city which helps. When Medowlake was running his 2nd start, in a 2 year old stake race the place was packed, I went into the Gold Cup Room & looked for a place at the bar to sit for the afternoon, No seats. OK-no biggie & then I heard someone calling me Richie-Richie. It was the bartender & he pointed me to a seat with a "drink" in front of it. It was water with a sip stick. He whisked it away & brought me a bottle of beer. Bert Sonnier & the owners were standing with their drinks. I asked "how come I get a seat & Sonnier doesn't?" & he said "cause you tip". :lol:

If you want to attract younger bettors, they live on the Internet. That's the place to recruit them. :)

[betovernetcapper]

Bingo! Just citing handle numbers and attendance on the rare, few biggest days does not mean the customers are happy. The people that support the game all the time are not the same people that bet on Derby day or Whitney Day.

Your song was not just funny, its spot on. The real horse player, loyal customers want fields with more than 5 horses and the take out to decrease not increase. Then, you have people in this industry that mock the customer. They don't want to "hear" about the state of racing. Well, if your customers are complaining and they see a problem......you better see it too......or you are on the eve of destruction.

Quoting numbers from Saratoga....just about the only place crushing it, or Breeders Cup Days does not mean a thing.........if things keep going at this pace....the day will come when that erodes too. Just a matter of time. When the best customers are saying the product is going down hill and costing too much, how are you going to attract new people? Ain't gonna happen. Half of these younger people that show up, are doing everything the track offers except betting. And, once the "big day" is over they are gone until next year.

I like the way you think. Whenever I hear the $5 million dollar something race, I think "what do I care what the purse is? It's not going to me." The super majority of my betting is on claiming and allowance races. I find most of these big races fun to watch, but not so much to bet on. As far as I'm concerned they could lose all of them.