Saturday's Dwyer Stakes only 5 horses !!!

[Robert Fischer]

disgusting

Practical Joke and Battalion Runner will match up, but they failed to give us a bettable race.

:mad:

[PaceAdvantage]

It's not like this is some new phenomenon in terms of stakes races. I remember as far back as the late 80s and early 90s, there were plenty of big time stakes races at Belmont that drew short fields like this.

It sucks, but it's not like this is something new.

What is new is that a great many of your every day races are short fields around the country....

[Robert Fischer]

They screwed up the Suburban also, with only a field of 6 :bang::bang::bang:

Could have been a great card.

At first glance, it's only worth playing the 2 dirt features as part of a multi-race sequence.

Guess I will be focused on the two turf features.

[Cholly]

They screwed up the Suburban also, with only a field of 6 :bang::bang::bang:

Could have been a great card.

At first glance, it's only worth playing the 2 dirt features as part of a multi-race sequence.

that's how they accomplish moving you from 16% take-out to 25.

[Robert Fischer]

It's not like this is some new phenomenon in terms of stakes races. I remember as far back as the late 80s and early 90s, there were plenty of big time stakes races at Belmont that drew short fields like this.

It stinks each time it happens, when you've been looking forward to a race.

I guess the owners/trainers/top-jocks don't mind at all.

The affect is lessened to a multi-race player as well. If you happen to be playing the exclusive NYRA Bets pick 5, it's not a bad thing for the average player. They can use 2 horses in some of the races and construct an affordable ticket...

But, if you are looking for one field of stakes horses to sink your teeth into, and attack the vertical exotics, you are forced to go turf, and simply watch the dirt races.


that's how they accomplish moving you from 16% take-out to 25.
That's kind of how it feels sometimes.
Maybe it's just tough sometimes to draw a full field of dirt stakes and promising allowance and/or MSW graduates, for a $400K Grade3?, but sometimes these fields feel like a 'bonus' for the top barns, and a funnel for the multis (and in this case you have the new adw pk5 that was just unveiled).

Even if it's totally random, it's frustrating.

[cj]

Iowa Derby this week, Indiana Derby next week.

[sour grapes]

was watching old races from 1991,and the mother goose and coaching club only had 4 fillies,meadow star and lite lite against 2 tomato cans.go for wand had 2 opponents in the alabama.THe breeders cup has changed racing and its debatable whether its for the better.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

disgusting

Practical Joke and Battalion Runner will match up, but they failed to give us a bettable race.

:mad:



Exactly who is they and what did they screw up?

Both races had 13 nominations, but as CJ alluded to this time of year is tough esp for 3 years with the two derbys mentioned, Jim Dandy/Travers and Haskell on the horizon.

[dilanesp]

It's not like this is some new phenomenon in terms of stakes races. I remember as far back as the late 80s and early 90s, there were plenty of big time stakes races at Belmont that drew short fields like this.

It sucks, but it's not like this is something new.

What is new is that a great many of your every day races are short fields around the country....

This is exactly right.

It's also more new in California than it is in New York. California used to have a lot of 10 and 12 horse stakes races in the 1980's, at the same time when NYRA had lots of short fields. Now it's the opposite, California is even worse than NYRA at drawing horses into its stakes races.

There are more options for stakes horses, and stakes horses also run a lot less often. Also, stakes purses haven't caught up with inflation, except the very top line ones. For instance, while the Kentucky Derby has grown from $600,000 to $2 million in the last 30 years, the Charles Whittingham Stakes purse shrunk from $500,000 to $200,000.

[devilsbag]

On July 8, 1978, the Dwyer Stakes featured a field of three. However, that trio were a part of the best crop in the history of American racing. This year, not so much.

[Cholly]

Iowa Derby this week, Indiana Derby next week.

Iowa Derby, Indiana Derby, Dwyer Stakes

What do these 3 have in common?...CASINO MONEY paying the tab

[cj]

Iowa Derby, Indiana Derby, Dwyer Stakes

What do these 3 have in common?...CASINO MONEY paying the tab

Yes, though to be fair one of these would exist without casino money, the other two would not.

[Robert Fischer]

You guys want to bet into 5 and 6 horse fields?

The ****ing IOWA DERBY is taking all the horses...
Schedule must have caught NYRA by surprise this year...

They had 13 nominations, cut them some slack...
They were only able to close the deal with 5, it's tough these days...

It's the status quo, don't see the problem here...


Alright I'll bet the Garden City Oaks and the Belmont Derby then. Good luck on the Dwyer.

Maybe it will save me some money, because while everyone is trying to label Practical Joke a sprinter, I think he should demolish this field with plenty in reserve.

[dilanesp]

On July 8, 1978, the Dwyer Stakes featured a field of three. However, that trio were a part of the best crop in the history of American racing. This year, not so much.

1957 looks to me to be as good a crop as 1978. But that's a quibble. :)

[MonmouthParkJoe]

You guys want to bet into 5 and 6 horse fields?

The ****ing IOWA DERBY is taking all the horses...
Schedule must have caught NYRA by surprise this year...

They had 13 nominations, cut them some slack...
They were only able to close the deal with 5, it's tough these days...

It's the status quo, don't see the problem here...


Alright I'll bet the Garden City Oaks and the Belmont Derby then. Good luck on the Dwyer.

Maybe it will save me some money, because while everyone is trying to label Practical Joke a sprinter, I think he should demolish this field with plenty in reserve.

Ok.

So the Iowa Derby has a less than stellar group of three year olds. I highly doubt that race is surprising anyone.

Do you really think any track wants to have a stake with only five runners?

[deathandgravity]

Ok.. this maybe a stupid question? But..

Explain to me why if you had a ½ decent horse in the allowance ranks you wouldn’t pay the $4000 in fees & in hope of scooping up some of the minor purse payouts?

Are horseman aware of the other entries when nominating?

[whodoyoulike]

was watching old races from 1991,and the mother goose and coaching club only had 4 fillies,meadow star and lite lite against 2 tomato cans.go for wand had 2 opponents in the alabama.THe breeders cup has changed racing and its debatable whether its for the better.

On July 8, 1978, the Dwyer Stakes featured a field of three. However, that trio were a part of the best crop in the history of American racing. This year, not so much.

1957 looks to me to be as good a crop as 1978. But that's a quibble. :)

Hey!! I know one has to have a very good memory to be good at handicapping horses but you guys are over the top with these.

I'm in trouble because I can't remember what I had for breakfast just three days ago.

[Tom]

Iowa Derby this week, Indiana Derby next week.

Friday night?
Look forward to this every year.

[devilsbag]

1957 looks to me to be as good a crop as 1978. But that's a quibble. :)


Not looking for an argument, but I'm not sure it's that close.
I'm not looking at it as the three-year-olds of 1978, but the overall foal crop of 1975. So putting the glamorous Triple Crown races aside, and as an advocate for the west coast, you are welcome to include John Henry in your reassessment. ;)

[Tom]

Last 516 5 horse fields everywhere, favorites won 48% and WP 70%.

Go grab a nice $3 exacta!
Use it for a down payment on a beer. :headbanger:

Could be worse, could be one horse racing a shark.

[dilanesp]

Not looking for an argument, but I'm not sure it's that close.
I'm not looking at it as the three-year-olds of 1978, but the overall foal crop of 1975. So putting the glamorous Triple Crown races aside, and as an advocate for the west coast, you are welcome to include John Henry in your reassessment. ;)

Redefined that way, horses born in 1964, which include Dr. Fager, Damascus, Princessnesian, Gamely, and Fort Marcy, is going to count. Also 1966: Majestic Prince, Arts and Letters, Shuvee, Ta Wee, Cougar II, and Ack Ack.

[Secondbest]

Redefined that way, horses born in 1964, which include Dr. Fager, Damascus, Princessnesian, Gamely, and Fort Marcy, is going to count. Also 1966: Majestic Prince, Arts and Letters, Shuvee, Ta Wee, Cougar II, and Ack Ack.

Ta Wee. One of my all time favorites.

[ronsmac]

They screwed up the Suburban also, with only a field of 6 :bang::bang::bang:

Could have been a great card.

At first glance, it's only worth playing the 2 dirt features as part of a multi-race sequence.

Guess I will be focused on the two turf features.Dirt racing in NY is a joke, has been for years. They might as well turn the main track into a 3rd turf course and run all grass racing. That would eliminate these 5 horse fields.

[dilanesp]

Dirt racing in NY is a joke, has been for years. They might as well turn the main track into a 3rd turf course and run all grass racing. That would eliminate these 5 horse fields.

Only works for awhile. California continued to have 11 horse grass races long after our dirt racing went to hell, but now we card plenty of 6 horse turf races too.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

Ok.. this maybe a stupid question? But..

Explain to me why if you had a ½ decent horse in the allowance ranks you wouldn’t pay the $4000 in fees & in hope of scooping up some of the minor purse payouts?

Are horseman aware of the other entries when nominating?


Most times you pitch the angle of being able to get a horse graded stakes placed to get them in there. As it relates to saying who else is in there, each track is different.

Once the first Saratoga book comes out most horsemen wait on entering for stakes/allowance races upstate. Horsemen get pretty aggressive with their placement since everyone wants to win there.

[Fager Fan]

This is exactly right.

It's also more new in California than it is in New York. California used to have a lot of 10 and 12 horse stakes races in the 1980's, at the same time when NYRA had lots of short fields. Now it's the opposite, California is even worse than NYRA at drawing horses into its stakes races.

There are more options for stakes horses, and stakes horses also run a lot less often. Also, stakes purses haven't caught up with inflation, except the very top line ones. For instance, while the Kentucky Derby has grown from $600,000 to $2 million in the last 30 years, the Charles Whittingham Stakes purse shrunk from $500,000 to $200,000.

And that was only due to CD getting deserved manure for having owners pay such a big chunk of the purse ($1m in fees for 20 horses) while they pocket $100m over the two days. Hell, the owners should fuss louder and get the fees dropped to $20k or have CD boost the purse by another million.

[dilanesp]

And that was only due to CD getting deserved manure for having owners pay such a big chunk of the purse ($1m in fees for 20 horses) while they pocket $100m over the two days. Hell, the owners should fuss louder and get the fees dropped to $20k or have CD boost the purse by another million.

Honestly, the Derby should be one of the richest races in the world based on what it produces for Churchill.

[GMB@BP]

Dirt racing in NY is a joke, has been for years. They might as well turn the main track into a 3rd turf course and run all grass racing. That would eliminate these 5 horse fields.

I dont really understand why this is....i think its a bigger question for the entire industry.

why are turf fields constantly getting large fields and dirt racing small fields.

when you consider that half the races in NY, or more, are on turf its not a issue of there are just more dirt races.

[Robert Fischer]

I dont really understand why this is....i think its a bigger question for the entire industry.

why are turf fields constantly getting large fields and dirt racing small fields.

when you consider that half the races in NY, or more, are on turf its not a issue of there are just more dirt races.

I want to preface by saying that I do not know enough about this to have an opinion.


Some guesses:

Dirt racing is less random, and owners and trainers don't want to race in tough spots where they face a dominant rival.

The super trainers don't want to 'waste' a win purse with 2 or 3 entries in a dirt race. On turf, they are more likely to try to ensure a pace or hope one of their multiple entries gets a trip.

Everybody is resting and drugging their dirt horses. 'Spacing'.

Collusion. Taking turns for the purse money, and occasionally filling out the 5th or 6th horse w/ a 'b' horse to make a race go.

The breeding program. Some of the turf races (state-bred maiden (clm or MSW)) for example, are highly incentivized.

Turf horses fairly frequently get to run with the flow, and do no running, and there are more turf horses that are ready to run sooner, out of the populations.


Someone who has real experience with being a racing secretary, or someone who has studied the issue and knows the important factors would have to chime in.

[VeryOldMan]

[B]ecause while everyone is trying to label Practical Joke a sprinter, I think he should demolish this field with plenty in reserve.

Boom goes the dynamite from OP! :) Nice call.

[Robert Fischer]

Boom goes the dynamite from OP! :) Nice call.
thanks, but $3.50.
The exacta was generous, but I need Unified to fail here in order to get paid.

Public is emphasizing the '1-turn' aspect of the trip. (This was a 1-turn mile). I still think he can go 10 furlongs. If Timeline stays in top form, it makes 7f/1M an easy choice for PJ.


He had to wait, and gather his hooves underneath him for a 2nd time. But in some ways it was a very favorable trip. Battalion Runner is prone to flattening out, and any risk of Practical Joke making a premature move on the turn was mitigated by having to wait. Rosario almost made a turf finish by darting out with the 1 as cover.

Could be a really useful prep whether he stays 1-turn or gets Travers dreams.

[Tom]

PJ's best shot at the Travers is as a lead pnoy.
He will have trouble beating the ambulance around two turns.

[GMB@BP]

I see a lot of patting on the back of people saying he is a one turn horse...which may be true.

Its a really unique opinion though, must have been why he was 3/5.

[cj]

I see a lot of patting on the back of people saying he is a one turn horse...which may be true.

Its a really unique opinion though, must have been why he was 3/5.

Most of the big money is at two turns, I'd give him one more shot.

[Robert Fischer]

He moved prematurely in the Fountain of Youth. The Blue Grass Stakes was a merry-go-round, and he ran fine there. He ran fine in the Derby considering the conditions.

He's a tough horse to know for certain.

Multiple excuses can hide flaws, just as much as they can hide performance.

The only race that I really am against PJ on was his Champagne. Herded or not, I thought he should have cleared Syndergard(sp).

This is a horse 'The Fat Man' was high on, although I didn't always agree.

Chad Brown certainly has the luxury to focus to the 1-turn division if he chooses. Will be fun to follow/debate.