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burnsy
06-11-2017, 08:20 AM
Good (physically and mentally strong) horses are becoming harder to come by. Only one horse made all three legs, Looking At Lee. Different horses hit the board in all three races, 9 different horses hit the board. Making races 2 and 3 weeks apart is seeming more and more like a problem. There have been exceptions in recent years but they are rare.

The weekend offered some really great racing, Belmont is on to something with the festival but the Triple Crown itself is kind of hype of hype now, when there are results like this and the lack of participation pretty much guarantees these results. The horses are actually showing the physical signs of not making it. American Pharoah is looking more and more like a freak or an Iron Horse compared to the modern 3 yo. I'm not a horse expert, I've been around them and know them, I'm more of a math, statistics and social science type person..............they have to take a look at the logistics of the Triple Crown in the near future. Don't ask Burnsy, ask a few of these trainers. I just look at the stats and sociology.

Tom
06-11-2017, 10:02 AM
I think yesterday defines Always Dreaming as a fit horse in the right place at the right time. I think he is at best the 5th best horse to run in all three races.

burnsy
06-11-2017, 10:46 AM
Totally agree Tom, but that's been the case in many of those Derby's, that's the horse I look for now, the "right now" horse. The peak race of the horses life becomes the derby. Nyquist, Mine That Bird, Giacomo, Orb, Super Saver and I'll Have Another, who only lasted one more race. The rest of those never lived up to it. Even the mighty Street Sense was out of the picture by mid summer. Who knows what's going on with Always Dreaming. Maybe, (hopefully) he will bounce back.

These are just the winners of the Derby. The Triple Crown should have some consistency, if its going to be called a "Triple". That's the main point, one horse (out of 20) competes in all 3? As soon as you lose, you are out, in many cases. And the elephant in the room is people saying that their horse can't do it. People don't say it out loud. But the intentions show loud and clear when one horse can't hit the board twice (in 3 races) because there are so few that come back to each one. That doesn't even touch on the ones that really can't go due to ailments and/or fatigue. Tradition and all that crap sounds great, horse racing and baseball are stuck on this nonsense...........that's why the new generations could give a crap. Its getting harder and harder to call this thing a "Triple"........no other sport could get away with it. I can almost agree with drunk guy (owner) that was bitching about California Chrome after the Belmont at this point. One horse ran in all 3, that's a joke.

PowerUpPaynter
06-11-2017, 10:49 AM
I think Cloud Computing will end up being the best horses of the crop.

Robert Fischer
06-11-2017, 11:01 AM
Every year, certain negative horseplayers whine about the proverbial 'bad' or below-average crop.

This year, those 'stopped clocks' may have gotten it right.

Always Dreaming is really impressive when he has things favorable enough.

Classic Empire was very tough in defeat in the Preakness. Tough enough to look at his Derby as an optimist. He was great in the Juvenile, and at least carried some of that forward to add to this crop.

Cloud Computing is a solid horse. He raced in only the Preakness, and got a good setup, but he provided a quality alternative in the 2nd jewel.

Battle of Midway was a very cool late bloomer. Probably the 4th best horse in the Derby, and was about 16th or so IIRC in odds rank.

Irish War Cry was OK.

Baffert had an off year in terms of Triple Crown additions.

Timeline had to be brought around slowly for races like the Haskell and Travers.

GREAT betting races from the the preps to the Triple Crown series. Interesting to follow along and forward.

Redboard
06-11-2017, 11:22 AM
I think the Triple Crown races are setup OK as it is, for now. The main purpose of these races is to bring in new fans (and therefore bettors, owners) to the sport. Itís not for the longtime, rabid, gambling-degenerated oldtimers like us.

We've already had a Triple Crown winner this century, so getting another one is not that big of a deal anymore IMO. If we don't have another TC winner in a while, that may be a good thing and add to the mystique. The Belmont is more exciting when thereís a TC on the line and thereís been a drought for a while. If this only happens once every few years, so be it. Between 1979 and 2015, 13 horses have gone on to win both the Derby and the Preakness, with 12 of those running in the Belmont. So, thatís roughly one every three years that we have a super-exciting Belmont, which is OK by me.

As far as "new generations giving a crap" , I'm not sure if they would give more of a crap if the races were spaced and setup so the best 3-year-olds did compete in all three races and were well-rested. The three races are currently over five weeks; if we spaced them out more than that, the young fans might lose interest given their propensity for short attention spans. However, if we go for decades without someone winning the first two legs, thatís a problem.

MonmouthParkJoe
06-11-2017, 11:22 AM
I love it every year. It definitely lost steam with no TC on the line and some horses skipping the Belmont, but I enjoyed it like I always do.

Lemon Drop Husker
06-11-2017, 11:29 AM
Looking back at the "heydey" of racing and we have the following horses that ran in all 3 legs of the Triple Crown:

1977: Seattle Slew, Run Dusty Run, Sir Sir
1978: Affirmed, Alydar (5 horse field in the Belmont)
1979: Spectacular Bid, Golden Act, General Assembly, Screen King (only 5 horses ran in the Preakness in 79)

If anything, we are at least getting reasonable sized fields in the TC races post Kentucky Derby nowadays. I couldn't even imagine the outcries in today's world if we would see 5 horse fields in the Preakness and/or Belmont.

Supposedly horses aren't as fit or able to run 12F as they used to be. Then again, the 70s had two renditions of 5 horse fields, two 8 horse fields, and two 9 horse fields. In the 2010's we have had the following field sizes for the Belmont: 12, 12, 11, 14, 11, 8 (Amer Ph), 13, 11.

Redboard
06-11-2017, 11:42 AM
Good point Lemon. If the three races were spaced every five weeks, other trainers wouldn't be as anxious to enter because they wouldn't feel they had a "rest" advantage, which could result in small fields.

classhandicapper
06-11-2017, 05:09 PM
I'm going to take a wild guess and say we may not have seen the best 3yo of this crop yet. I'm not particularly impressed with anyone. I don't think it's impossible for a new face to jump up and take over the division by the end of August. Arrogate wasn't on the radar at this point last year and this crop may not even be as good as last year's crop.

classhandicapper
06-11-2017, 05:27 PM
I'm going to take a wild guess and say we may not have seen the best 3yo of this crop yet. I'm not particularly impressed with anyone. I don't think it's impossible for a new face to jump up and take over the division by the end of August. Arrogate wasn't on the radar at this point last year and this crop may not even be as good as last year's crop.

Let me add one horse to the mix. I think McCraken may turn out to be pretty good. He made a really nice wide move in the Derby.

jocko699
06-11-2017, 05:57 PM
Disappointing triple crown trail but I thought it made for some very good betting angles. Of course I hit nothing so what do I know.

Baffert had the triple crown covered. IMO, Mastery was much the best 3-year old but we will never know. IMO, Reach the World was going to be a classic winner one day but succumbed to an injury.

I am hearing some big things out of BB's camp about his 2-year olds. We will know soon what next year's TC will look like.

Blenheim
06-11-2017, 08:48 PM
Tough game, rigorous schedule with fragile contestants; horse racing continues on its inexorable decline.

:11:

VigorsTheGrey
06-11-2017, 08:53 PM
I'm going to take a wild guess and say we may not have seen the best 3yo of this crop yet. I'm not particularly impressed with anyone. I don't think it's impossible for a new face to jump up and take over the division by the end of August. Arrogate wasn't on the radar at this point last year and this crop may not even be as good as last year's crop.

Class, have you read anywhere WHEN (What Decade?) racehorses began to race fairly regularly as 2 yr olds...? I don't know, but it seem a tad young for them to start in so early with heavy training....maybe the division lately is the result of racing thoroughbreds too early...

Tom
06-11-2017, 11:09 PM
Baffert had an off year in terms of Triple Crown additions.

But he had a Belmont Day for the books!:headbanger:

luisbe
06-11-2017, 11:43 PM
I'm going to take a wild guess and say we may not have seen the best 3yo of this crop yet. I'm not particularly impressed with anyone. I don't think it's impossible for a new face to jump up and take over the division by the end of August. Arrogate wasn't on the radar at this point last year and this crop may not even be as good as last year's crop.
Is Mastery being trained to return?

jocko699
06-11-2017, 11:48 PM
Is Mastery being trained to return?

Not yet but that is the plan.

CincyHorseplayer
06-12-2017, 12:23 PM
The Belmont isn't the end of the line for the 3yo crop. I look forward to the chase every year and start tracing pedigrees with the winners of the Saratoga and Del Mar stakes. There is no letdown for me after the Belmont because we are already in the midst of the best racing of the year. With the best yet to come. Don't get the borderline suicide watch mentality when the TC is over.

Robert Fischer
06-12-2017, 01:06 PM
The Belmont isn't the end of the line for the 3yo crop. I look forward to the chase every year and start tracing pedigrees with the winners of the Saratoga and Del Mar stakes. There is no letdown for me after the Belmont because we are already in the midst of the best racing of the year. With the best yet to come. Don't get the borderline suicide watch mentality when the TC is over.


Agreed.



Classic Empire, Always Dreaming, Cloud Computing, Timeline, all opted to skip the Belmont, - so that they can run big in the upcoming races this summer, and fall.

Those are some of the cream of this crop.

Obviously more racing ahead.


Makes no sense that some whine about top horses skipping the belmont, and then declare the season over!

Unless some of these rested colts, or some new face, becomes a champion, this will not be among the greatest 3yo crops of all time.

Even if Timeline were to become the next Arrogate(as some fans wildly predict), we'd probably grade the crop similar to last season.

However, we do have a crop. It has character. It still has some exciting potential. This crop is very much 'alive'. The cream of the crop has more good racing ahead.

dilanesp
06-12-2017, 01:34 PM
Good (physically and mentally strong) horses are becoming harder to come by. Only one horse made all three legs, Looking At Lee. Different horses hit the board in all three races, 9 different horses hit the board. Making races 2 and 3 weeks apart is seeming more and more like a problem. There have been exceptions in recent years but they are rare.

The weekend offered some really great racing, Belmont is on to something with the festival but the Triple Crown itself is kind of hype of hype now, when there are results like this and the lack of participation pretty much guarantees these results. The horses are actually showing the physical signs of not making it. American Pharoah is looking more and more like a freak or an Iron Horse compared to the modern 3 yo. I'm not a horse expert, I've been around them and know them, I'm more of a math, statistics and social science type person..............they have to take a look at the logistics of the Triple Crown in the near future. Don't ask Burnsy, ask a few of these trainers. I just look at the stats and sociology.

One other thing about American Pharoah-- and his crop.

AP ran the second half of his Belmont just as fast as the first half (1:13 and change, plus 1:13 and change, for a 2:26 and change Belmont). We are seeing a lot of 2:29 and 2:30 Belmonts as the horses get dead tired (look at the gallop out on Saturday, those horses are POOPED!). AP was a rare modern horse with plenty of stamina.

And his crop looks better too. He won the Belmont by 6 lengths, so the second place horse ran 2:27 and change. Frosted and Keen Ice were both nice horses running behind him. Dortmund was pretty good too.

AP is going to look better and better as the years go by (something I also say about Zenyatta and all the hate against her-- we are going to go decades before a filly or mare so much as runs second in the BC Classic once).

dilanesp
06-12-2017, 01:35 PM
Every year, certain negative horseplayers whine about the proverbial 'bad' or below-average crop.

Remember, at this time last year, Arrogate was an allowance horse that nobody had heard of.

EDIT: I see class got there first.

classhandicapper
06-12-2017, 01:41 PM
Class, have you read anywhere WHEN (What Decade?) racehorses began to race fairly regularly as 2 yr olds...? I don't know, but it seem a tad young for them to start in so early with heavy training....maybe the division lately is the result of racing thoroughbreds too early...


I have no idea when it started, it's actually the opposite. For decades horses used to race heavily at 2. It wasn't until recent years that the schedule started getting lighter and lighter.

dilanesp
06-12-2017, 02:10 PM
I have no idea when it started, it's actually the opposite. For decades horses used to race heavily at 2. It wasn't until recent years that the schedule started getting lighter and lighter.

I have racing forms from the 1980's with horses entered in the Derby with 20 starts.

Indeed, one of the now-discarded handicapping angles of the Derby was that you needed a certain number of starts, and a certain number of starts as a 3 year old, to win it. When Seattle Slew won it in his 7th career start in 1977, that was considered a major anomaly, for instance.

classhandicapper
06-12-2017, 02:30 PM
Is Mastery being trained to return?

As far as I know he hasn't been retired. Last I heard he was recovering from surgery and they were going to see how he was doing before making a decision.

I did forget about one other prospect. Pletcher had One Liner.

reckless
06-12-2017, 04:47 PM
Is Mastery being trained to return?

It's hard to have a sympathetic moment pertaining to anything Bob Baffert, but now that the Triple Crown series is over, in my not-so-humble opinion... Mastery would have been racing's and Baffert's second Triple Crown winner in three years!

Mastery would have made all three TC races a 'joke' by the ease he would have won them. Again, just my opinion.

Redboard
06-12-2017, 09:48 PM
I have no idea when it started, it's actually the opposite. For decades horses used to race heavily at 2. It wasn't until recent years that the schedule started getting lighter and lighter.

Two of the all-time greats, Man O War and Secretariat has stellar 2-year-old campaigns.

Afleet
06-12-2017, 11:21 PM
Think Practical Joke will turn out to be a good one

dilanesp
06-13-2017, 02:57 AM
Two of the all-time greats, Man O War and Secretariat has stellar 2-year-old campaigns.

Affirmed had an amazing 2 year old campaign, including 4 wins in 6 races against Alydar and wins in big 2 year old races on both coasts (Hollywood Juvenile, Laurel Futurity), as recently in 1977.

Spectacular Bid set two track records as a 2 year old the following year, including one in a route race (and 2 year olds NEVER do that), and won several big stakes.

cj
06-13-2017, 10:05 AM
Favorite Trick wasn't too shabby at 2 either, though 3yo season has to be considered a disappointment.

elhelmete
06-13-2017, 03:29 PM
Not yet but that is the plan.

Retired.

Blenheim
06-13-2017, 07:41 PM
Two of the all-time greats, Man O War and Secretariat has stellar 2-year-old campaigns.


The most heavily raced Triple Crown winner, "Mr. Longtail" went to post 60 times. Among his victories at 2 were the Hopeful at Saratoga and Keeneland's Breeders' Futurity. At 3, he raced 20 times en route to Horse of the Year. He prepped for the Kentucky Derby with seconds in the Blue Grass and Derby Trial, but won the Triple Crown by a combined 16 lengths. He added six more victories that year, including the Travers, before losing by a nose in the Jockey Club Gold Cup. At 4, he made 22 starts, and was favored every time in another Horse of the Year campaign. He won 12, including the Clark, Dixie, Brooklyn, Mass Cap, Jockey Club Gold Cup, and, by walkover, the Pimlico Special. He raced twice, without distinction, in an age 5 cameo.

Take a look at the lifetime past performances of Whirlaway.

http://www.drf.com/news/triple-crown-winners-whirlaway

Look at the days between races: won the Blue Grass on 24 April, won the Derby Trial 5 days later, won the Kentucky Derby 4 days later, won the Preakness seven 7 days later, won an Allowance against older ten 10 days later and then went on to win the Belmont eighteen 18 days later.

Truly amazing.

Some say them the good ol' days.

Interesting how times have changed.


:11:

jocko699
06-13-2017, 08:11 PM
Retired.

Yep, just saw it.

dilanesp
06-13-2017, 10:14 PM
The most heavily raced Triple Crown winner, "Mr. Longtail" went to post 60 times. Among his victories at 2 were the Hopeful at Saratoga and Keeneland's Breeders' Futurity. At 3, he raced 20 times en route to Horse of the Year. He prepped for the Kentucky Derby with seconds in the Blue Grass and Derby Trial, but won the Triple Crown by a combined 16 lengths. He added six more victories that year, including the Travers, before losing by a nose in the Jockey Club Gold Cup. At 4, he made 22 starts, and was favored every time in another Horse of the Year campaign. He won 12, including the Clark, Dixie, Brooklyn, Mass Cap, Jockey Club Gold Cup, and, by walkover, the Pimlico Special. He raced twice, without distinction, in an age 5 cameo.

Take a look at the lifetime past performances of Whirlaway.

http://www.drf.com/news/triple-crown-winners-whirlaway

Look at the days between races: won the Blue Grass on 24 April, won the Derby Trial 5 days later, won the Kentucky Derby 4 days later, won the Preakness seven 7 days later, won an Allowance against older ten 10 days later and then went on to win the Belmont eighteen 18 days later.

Truly amazing.

Some say them the good ol' days.

Interesting how times have changed.


:11:

Whirlaway is an actual all time great horse.

Which is why one should be careful about calling horses like Arrogate, Holy Bull, etc., "great".

Dahoss9698
06-13-2017, 11:34 PM
Whirlaway is an actual all time great horse.

Which is why one should be careful about calling horses like Arrogate, Holy Bull, etc., "great".

Would you consider Zenyatta great? How about Rachel Alexandra?

Lemon Drop Husker
06-13-2017, 11:42 PM
Whirlaway is an actual all time great horse.

Which is why one should be careful about calling horses like Arrogate, Holy Bull, etc., "great".

Did you ever watch Whirlaway run an actual race?

Nobody alive today with any interest in current horse racing has. Sure, we can watch black and whites, maybe check times from a time long long ago.

Can you say for an actual fact that Whirlaway is/was better than Arrogate?

soonboomer
06-13-2017, 11:51 PM
Would you consider Zenyatta great? How about Rachel Alexandra?

Great mares.....not great horses.

soonboomer
06-13-2017, 11:52 PM
Did you ever watch Whirlaway run an actual race?

Nobody alive today with any interest in current horse racing has. Sure, we can watch black and whites, maybe check times from a time long long ago.

Can you say for an actual fact that Whirlaway is/was better than Arrogate?

Arrogate>Whirlaway

Afleet
07-09-2017, 02:19 PM
Think Practical Joke will turn out to be a good one

Dwyer S. 1 Mile | Open | 3 Year Olds | G3 STAKES | Purse: $384,000

3 Practical Joke J. Rosario 123Lbs C. Brown 3.50 2.80 2.10


Times in 100ths: :23.12 :47.15 1:11.55 1:35.16

Time seems slow for Belmont, but was visually impressive imho

cj
07-09-2017, 11:38 PM
Dwyer S. 1 Mile | Open | 3 Year Olds | G3 STAKES | Purse: $384,000

3 Practical Joke J. Rosario 123Lbs C. Brown 3.50 2.80 2.10


Times in 100ths: :23.12 :47.15 1:11.55 1:35.16

Time seems slow for Belmont, but was visually impressive imho

Track was definitely on the slow side Saturday.

Afleet
07-10-2017, 09:51 PM
Thunder Snow may be the best of the crop-now that would be funny.

Thunder Snow (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/thoroughbred/thunder-snow-ire/2014?source=BHonline) led all the way to win the Prix Jean Prat (G1) for 3-year-old colts and fillies July 9 at Chantilly.

Thunder Snow, with jockey Christophe Soumillon up, completed the one mile over good turf in 1:38.78, without much need to hurry things along. He picked up his second group 1 win, following the Criterium International at Saint-Cloud, which completed his 2-year-old campaign.

“He's a monster,” Soumillon told the Paris Turf. “The race went well. He was able to go to the front and relax. When I asked him to accelerate he was very professional.

I can see it now: Thunder Snow upsets Arrogate in the BC Classic. The greatest upset in the history of the sport.:eek:

n.c
07-17-2017, 11:43 PM
seems like he does not have any expensive horses, but his horses seem to make
$$$$ for his owners. Triple crown races and other grade 1,2,3 races .