Did Martin Garcia do the right turn body slam on Follow Me Crev on purpose?

[Andy Asaro]

Nobody can say for sure but it sure is suspicious given previous incidents. I'll go with yes just to stir the pot.

[Dahoss9698]

No doubt in my mind he did it on purpose.

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/868850949413937152

[Andy Asaro]

Baffert "He ducked from the starter" "He can do that"

[cj]

Who knows really, but the way California stewards have handled gate incidents certainly allows for the possibility that somebody would take advantage of it.

[Robert Fischer]

I couldn't tell either way.

It looks like whether it was intentional, or not, that once contact was inevitable that Garcia was aggressive. I don't see anything wrong with that, specifically.

I guess the question is whether Baffert, Tabor et al were 'pulling strings', and chose to impede a main rival, by using and potentially sacrificing one of his two A's.

I don't see it, but the potential is there, and that is worth some thought.

And when a potential advantage exist by way of cheating, you will see Gresham's law play out.

[Andy Asaro]

If anything Garcia should get days for it.

[SuperPickle]

I'm not Einstein but isn't giving your horse a poor start to give another horse a poor start illogical???

[Dahoss9698]

I'm not Einstein but isn't giving your horse a poor start to give another horse a poor start illogical???

Not if your goal is to eliminate the main competition for your longer priced uncoupled entrymate.

Let's think about this for a second. Martin Garcia is a 10% rider this year. That's with the benefit of riding a lot of choice Baffert stock. Why do you think that is? What does Baffert see that seemingly no other trainer sees?

He's a good Baffert soldier. He does whatever is needed for the team. You've been around, let's not pretend stuff like this is something that can't happen. Tag teams happen all the time. You started a thread about one at Golden Gate the other day remember?

[dilanesp]

Follow Me Crev is a deep closer anyway. Giving a deep closer a slow start doesn't hurt that horse's chances much.

The Bayern thing worked because it eliminated Moreno, the other speed horse in the race.

[cj]

Follow Me Crev is a deep closer anyway. Giving a deep closer a slow start doesn't hurt that horse's chances much.

The Bayern thing worked because it eliminated Moreno, the other speed horse in the race.

It may not hurt as much as it does a speed horse, but it definitely still hurts the horses chances. He had to make up several additional lengths because of the break. He was 11 lengths back after a 1/4 mile. This is not a horse that is usually that far back---not even close.

[Dahoss9698]

Follow Me Crev is a deep closer anyway. Giving a deep closer a slow start doesn't hurt that horse's chances much.

The Bayern thing worked because it eliminated Moreno, the other speed horse in the race.

Clobbering a horse at the start doesn't hurt his chances much? :lol::lol::lol:

What color is the sky? I'm just curious if we can agree on something obvious.

[Ruffian1]

Baffert "He ducked from the starter" "He can do that"


Absolutely.

[Andy Asaro]

Absolutely.

It's the starters fault. Remember the press conference where Baffert was caught on a hot mic telling Garcia what to say?

Got this from CHRB Spokesperson Mike Marten (who deserves a statue somewhere someday. This guy is the best at what he does and ALWAYS answers questions.)

I asked if the Stewards spoke to Garcia and/or are going to give him days off.

I’ve sent an email to Darrel McHargue.

Reviewing the race myself, it looked like American Freedom took him by surprise by veering right like that. But maybe a jockey is supposed to be prepared for that possibility. I don’t know. We will see what McHargue says.

[arw629]

I find this thread comical

[Andy Asaro]

I find this thread comical

If there was no history I wouldn't have put it up. But, there is.

[Ruffian1]

It's the starters fault. Remember the press conference where Baffert was caught on a hot mic telling Garcia what to say?


All I was saying is that a horse can duck from the starter and it is not a leap to say that. It does happen.
Don't know the race and never saw it. And if Bob got caught saying that I would need to follow up on why he is telling the jock what happened. It's the other way around right?

[Andy Asaro]

All I was saying is that a horse can duck from the starter and it is not a leap to say that. It does happen.
Don't know the race and never saw it. And if Bob got caught saying that I would need to follow up on why he is telling the jock what happened. It's the other way around right?

I agree that we are only speculating BUT there are a lot of people out here in Ca. who won't say anything on the record but are very suspicious of the slam.

And I am biased. I've had a long running feud with B.B.

[Ruffian1]

"But maybe a jockey is supposed to be prepared for that possibility."


Of course the rider is.

That goes without saying.

[Andy Asaro]

Twitter Poll a little different. With 95 votes

38%Yes, he's done it before.

26%No, wasn't his fault

36%Not sure but suspicious

[Andy Asaro]

"But maybe a jockey is supposed to be prepared for that possibility."


Of course the rider is.

That goes without saying.


Since they passed the whip rule Steward out here have a lot more control over jockeys. They get called in for things they would have never been called in for 5 years ago.

[Ruffian1]

I agree that we are only speculating BUT there are a lot of people out here in Ca. who won't say anything on the record but are very suspicious of the slam.

And I am biased. I've had a long running feud with B.B.


When riders are allowed a freedom like the gate stuff , it's only a matter of time before it either gets abused or somebody really gets hurt.

Darrel knows this as well as anybody.

Darrel rode without the luxury of any first step stuff when he was in Maryland. He knows full well about all this.

[dilanesp]

It may not hurt as much as it does a speed horse, but it definitely still hurts the horses chances. He had to make up several additional lengths because of the break. He was 11 lengths back after a 1/4 mile. This is not a horse that is usually that far back---not even close.

cj, there was a 3 horse speed duel. Maybe I am an idiot, but I absolutely expected him to be that far back. The other main closer (think his name was Big John B) was that far back too.

[Dahoss9698]

Can someone with a database run a query on when Baffert runs an uncoupled entry. I'm curious how often the longer priced horse wins and what the ROI is.

[Andy Asaro]

When riders are allowed a freedom like the gate stuff , it's only a matter of time before it either gets abused or somebody really gets hurt.

Darrel knows this as well as anybody.

Darrel rode without the luxury of any first step stuff when he was in Maryland. He knows full well about all this.

He's been very disappointing since they put him in charge. Politics rule.

[Dahoss9698]

cj, there was a 3 horse speed duel. Maybe I am an idiot, but I absolutely expected him to be that far back. The other main closer (think his name was Big John B) was that far back too.

It's not so much being far back as it is getting slammed at the start, no? Doesn't that hurt a horses chances?

[dilanesp]

It's not so much being far back as it is getting slammed at the start, no? Doesn't that hurt a horses chances?

It could. But if the incident puts the horse back where he was going to be anyway, that's a lot less significant trouble than it would be for a front runner being denied position (e.g., Arrogate in Dubai).

(A piece of trivia. 1949 Derby winner Ponder had a bad start every race. He was a deep closer. The chart comments used to say "Ponder, slow to begin as usual...")

[Ruffian1]

He's been very disappointing since they put him in charge. Politics rule.

That's a shame.

He was a great guy back when I knew him.

Great rider too.

He rode and won on the 1st horse I ever saddled.

Laurel.
November 8th, 1975.

[Dahoss9698]

It could. But if the incident puts the horse back where he was going to be anyway, that's a lot less significant trouble than it would be for a front runner being denied position (e.g., Arrogate in Dubai).

(A piece of trivia. 1949 Derby winner Ponder had a bad start every race. He was a deep closer. The chart comments used to say "Ponder, slow to begin as usual...")

It could? :lol:

Trouble is trouble. If you clobber a horse at the start their chances are hurt. Yes it would hurt a front runner more but it still hurts.

[cj]

cj, there was a 3 horse speed duel. Maybe I am an idiot, but I absolutely expected him to be that far back. The other main closer (think his name was Big John B) was that far back too.

There is no way he is that far back without the trouble. Hrs been in fast paced races like that before and is generally about 5 lengths back.

[dilanesp]

It could? :lol:

Trouble is trouble. If you clobber a horse at the start their chances are hurt. Yes it would hurt a front runner more but it still hurts.

I will give you an extreme example, but I don't think it would have harmed Vigors or Whirlaway one bit to be clobbered at the start, unless it injured them.

If cj is right that FMC was going to be closer up, then it hurt him. If Kent was going to put him that far back anyway, then it's just a bump at the start, and bumps happen all the time in racing.

[cj]

I will give you an extreme example, but I don't think it would have harmed Vigors or Whirlaway one bit to be clobbered at the start, unless it injured them.

If cj is right that FMC was going to be closer up, then it hurt him. If Kent was going to put him that far back anyway, then it's just a bump at the start, and bumps happen all the time in racing.


Your analysis Holy Bull's Travers gives me "concern" when I see you discussing closers. 😀

[Dahoss9698]

I will give you an extreme example, but I don't think it would have harmed Vigors or Whirlaway one bit to be clobbered at the start, unless it injured them.

If cj is right that FMC was going to be closer up, then it hurt him. If Kent was going to put him that far back anyway, then it's just a bump at the start, and bumps happen all the time in racing.

The point is the contact took something out of him. I'm not sure why that seems to be lost on you.

But by all means give me another example from 40 years ago as if it applies to today.

[dilanesp]

Your analysis Holy Bull's Travers gives me "concern" when I see you discussing closers. 😀

Really? Concern's last fraction sucked in that race, and he got a perfect trip.

I saw Concern at his absolute best, in the 1995 Californian. His closing kick in that race would have blown by Holy Bull.

[cj]

Really? Concern's last fraction sucked in that race, and he got a perfect trip.

I saw Concern at his absolute best, in the 1995 Californian. His closing kick in that race would have blown by Holy Bull.

I guess you haven't revisited that thread. You said a 27 final quarter would have win it. He ran well below a 26. Final quarter was 26.06 and he gained nearly a full four lengths. Conservatively that puts his last quarter at 25.44

[Robert Fischer]

Can someone with a database run a query on when Baffert runs an uncoupled entry. I'm curious how often the longer priced horse wins and what the ROI is.

curious as well. I second that request.


If it isn't a standalone profit, it's significant enough in contrast with most other trainers' uncoupled entries.

Baffert clearly doesn't object to the longer priced horse winning, and while (trusting the public's opinion of uncoupled entries) may be a generally safe heuristic, Baffert uncoupled entries require you to buck social proof, and do your homework from scratch.



guessing 'why?'
Perhaps part of it may be that Baffert can train a horse into stakes fitness without climbing an obvious class ladder.
Another contributing factor is the public's blind faith in whoever Baffert's latest now horse happens to be.
When a vulnerable 'now' horse, and a horse whom Baffert has basically trained-up to the race (layoff or class hike), meet, it's worth having a very open mind.

[Robert Fischer]

American Freedom is a horse that can make the conspiracy theorists go crazy.


Entered into the Pat Day Mile as a highly touted superstar
Entered into the Travers as 'Baffert's 'A'
Entered into the Alysheba as a 'thriving, improving' Grade 1 horse
Entered into the Gold Cup as 'Baffert's 'A'


Puppetmaster Baffert pulling strings

even has a CIA propaganda-quality name for the job. :eek:

[Andy Asaro]

From Mike Marten a few minutes ago.


Here is Darrel McHargue’s response, Andy

I spoke with the stewards at Santa Anita about the start of the 8th race that ran on Saturday regarding the actions of jockey Martin Garcia who rode #1 American Freedom. Mr. Garcia was not invited in to review the recordings of the start. The stewards criteria for calling a jockey in to review a start is: if a rider is negligent or slow to react to straighten his/her mount when it breaks inward or outward then that rider is called in and the incident is reviewed which may result in a sanction. In this instance after reviewing the incident they were of the opinion Mr. Garcia reacted in a timely manner and made a determined effort to straighten his mount, therefore he was not invited in to watch the race with the stewards. This policy is also followed at Golden Gate.



Nice to be with B.B.

[cj]

From Mike Marten a few minutes ago.


Here is Darrel McHargue’s response, Andy

I spoke with the stewards at Santa Anita about the start of the 8th race that ran on Saturday regarding the actions of jockey Martin Garcia who rode #1 American Freedom. Mr. Garcia was not invited in to review the recordings of the start. The stewards criteria for calling a jockey in to review a start is: if a rider is negligent or slow to react to straighten his/her mount when it breaks inward or outward then that rider is called in and the incident is reviewed which may result in a sanction. In this instance after reviewing the incident they were of the opinion Mr. Garcia reacted in a timely manner and made a determined effort to straighten his mount, therefore he was not invited in to watch the race with the stewards. This policy is also followed at Golden Gate.



Nice to be with B.B.

Business as usual, nothing to see here.

[Andy Asaro]

Business as usual, nothing to see here.

McHargue is really something else. This is about the fifth time he's come up with strange statements like this. Given the history you at least gotta call him in.

[GMB@BP]

American Freedom is a horse that can make the conspiracy theorists go crazy.


Entered into the Pat Day Mile as a highly touted superstar
Entered into the Travers as 'Baffert's 'A'
Entered into the Alysheba as a 'thriving, improving' Grade 1 horse
Entered into the Gold Cup as 'Baffert's 'A'


Puppetmaster Baffert pulling strings

even has a CIA propaganda-quality name for the job. :eek:

Just as an aside Baffert did not think he was the A going into the Travers. Thats not speculation but a fact.

I have no idea what he thought of him last weekend.

[cj]

Just as an aside Baffert did not think he was the A going into the Travers. Thats not speculation but a fact.

I have no idea what he thought of him last weekend.

It is like the only race the stewards ever remember if the last one. I guess that is why Kent gets let off all the time too.

[Andy Asaro]

It is like the only race the stewards ever remember if the last one. I guess that is why Kent gets let off all the time too.

The system drives me absolutely friggin nuts out here. All politics all the time. They've taken at least 20 years off my life.

[dilanesp]

I guess you haven't revisited that thread. You said a 27 final quarter would have win it. He ran well below a 26. Final quarter was 26.06 and he gained nearly a full four lengths. Conservatively that puts his last quarter at 25.44

I looked at the race. I had misremembered the last fraction-- I remembered the 1:35 to 2:02 but Holy Bull's last fraction was only 26 flat as you state.

It's still painfully slow (by comparison, Cupid, nobody's idea of a great horse, ran 25 2/5 on Saturday, and Follow Me Crev, a plodder, ran 24 3/5), but it's not as slow as I remembered it.

[cj]

I looked at the race. I had misremembered the last fraction-- I remembered the 1:35 to 2:02 but Holy Bull's last fraction was only 26 flat as you state.

It's still painfully slow (by comparison, Cupid, nobody's idea of a great horse, ran 25 2/5 on Saturday, and Follow Me Crev, a plodder, ran 24 3/5), but it's not as slow as I remembered it.

Comparing raw fractions at Saratoga to those at Santa Anita isn't exactly apples to apples, and neither is comparing an August 3yo to an older horse.

[kevb]

In my mind it was suspicious, but no one has mentioned that the 4 horse ridden my Jamie Theriot made a left turn out of the gate. Garcia and Theriot squeezed Crev back like a watermelon seed.

[SG4]

If you're in a G1 race and your big concern is how do I eliminate Follow Me Crev, I think that would a) speak sadly to our horse population & b) suggest you have a G3 horse at best. He's a nice, consistent horse I would love to own, but I have to think it's crazy to consider this was a premeditated move.

[Dahoss9698]

If you're in a G1 race and your big concern is how do I eliminate Follow Me Crev, I think that would a) speak sadly to our horse population & b) suggest you have a G3 horse at best. He's a nice, consistent horse I would love to own, but I have to think it's crazy to consider this was a premeditated move.

I think it's crazy to just accept everything that happens at face value in this sport.

The horse is a grade 3 horse at best. He was used as a hit man and rabbit in the Gold Cup. Tag team racing at its best.

I wonder how much money the connections of the winner bet.

[Andy Asaro]

If it never happened before we'd give them a pass BUT it has happened before with the Trainer/Jockey.

[cj]

If it never happened before we'd give them a pass BUT it has happened before with the Trainer/Jockey.

There was Bayern in the Classic though that wasn't really tag team, and of course Sky Kingdom / Shared Belief. I'm sure there are others.

[Spalding No!]

There was Bayern in the Classic though that wasn't really tag team, and of course Sky Kingdom / Shared Belief. I'm sure there are others.

Anyone have a replay of Race 2 at Santa Anita February 20, 2017?

That was Follow Me Crev's comeback race (not a Grade 1). His trainer had another entrant, Conquest Cobra in the race. If I recall correctly, that horse dueled for the lead while stalked by the 3-2 favorite El Huerfano. When the latter made a strong bid for the lead at the 1/4 pole, Conquest Cobra's jock drifted his mount out sharply, right into El Huerfano's path causing that one to shift out extra wide. Meanwhile, stablemate Follow Me Crev got by the other pacesetter and had a clear run along the inside, surging to victory.

[cj]

Anyone have a replay of Race 2 at Santa Anita February 20, 2017?

That was Follow Me Crev's comeback race (not a Grade 1). His trainer had another entrant, Conquest Cobra in the race. If I recall correctly, that horse dueled for the lead while stalked by the 3-2 favorite El Huerfano. When the latter made a strong bid for the lead at the 1/4 pole, Conquest Cobra's jock drifted his mount out sharply, right into El Huerfano's path causing that one to shift out extra wide. Meanwhile, stablemate Follow Me Crev got by the other pacesetter and had a clear run along the inside, surging to victory.

Finding SoCal replays that can be posted here are tough, but you can always find them at calracing.com or via most ADWs when logged in. I did find out the other day you can't get replays on calracing the same day of the races. You now have to wait until the next day. What a sport!

[dilanesp]

Finding SoCal replays that can be posted here are tough, but you can always find them at calracing.com or via most ADWs when logged in. I did find out the other day you can't get replays on calracing the same day of the races. You now have to wait until the next day. What a sport!

I posted about that back when they changed over. It was around the first of the year. Something relating to the contract that was signed with the video service.

[Spalding No!]

Finding SoCal replays that can be posted here are tough, but you can always find them at calracing.com or via most ADWs when logged in. I did find out the other day you can't get replays on calracing the same day of the races. You now have to wait until the next day. What a sport!
You're right. I found the replay on the Thoroughbred Daily News site, which has a good breeding section that posts the replays of wins of offspring of specific sires.

In this case you have to look up Quality Road and you will eventually find the Follow Me Crev allowance race with both pan and head-on replays.

Couldn't figure out how to link it to here though.

[Lono]

I'll just Boycott Keeneland and all KY tracks.