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Valuist
08-03-2004, 09:54 AM
Quite an interesting dichotemy. One owner has been vilified for wanting to keep one champion in training. The other was somehow made up by the media as a "feel good" story. How this happened, I really don't know. Its quite obvious that the Chapmans had NO intention of racing after the Belmont. That's their right, but they also are a bunch of hypocrites. Don't feed us this bull$hit about how much you want to see him run again when facing the likes of Pleasantly Perfect, Pico Central or any of the other top older horses. God forbid, he might get beat. So what??? You still can't take away the Derby and Preakness wins. The fear is that he may get exposed....I've got news for you, Mr. and Mrs Chapman: people who have mares that might breed to him already know that he wasn't the second coming of Secretariat. There's no "hiding" anything. As for Paulson, I don't understand the criticism. Don't we want to see our top stars keep racing past age 4 (or 3 in some cases)? Granted the horse wasn't entered in the best spots on two occasions this year, but at the time, running 7f against Mayo On the Side didn't seem like an insurmountable task. Hopefully more owners would be more like Paulson, and less like the Chapmans.

PaceAdvantage
08-03-2004, 10:01 AM
Where were you a few weeks ago when I needed help in the trenches!!!??? LOL

SAL
08-03-2004, 10:11 AM
It seems that the only time we will see a talented 3yo continue racing is if he's a gelding (Funny Cide). Otherwise it's off to the breeding shed.

We're going to keep seeing this as long as people are willing to throw large amounts of money for unproven sires. The part that gets me is that Chapman seemed to be like the everyday guy that lucked out. Now that he's selling out for the money it's very disappointing.

Valuist
08-03-2004, 10:32 AM
I'd be curious to see a poll re: who was more popular: Smarty Jones or Cigar. I guarantee you 99% of the hardcore race fans would vote for Cigar. The ESPN, racing is 4 days a year crowd would go for Smarty.

I know the networks liked to paint Chapman as an "everyday guy" but he owns at least one Ford dealership. I guarantee he wasn't hurting for money before Smarty Jones came along.

ceejay
08-03-2004, 10:33 AM
We did see Congaree as a 5yo, didn't we? Md'O too.

But I agree, it is too rare.

KingChas
08-03-2004, 11:29 AM
I need to rethink my feelings for Azeri.After the loss to Mayo and the last place finish the next race I thought she was going the Mike Tyson route.I see I was wrong.I am admitting that.As for Smarty Jones why is everyone busting on the horse?I'm sure he still wants to run.What did he do wrong-lose 1 race.As Steven Davidowitz wrote he didn't think there was a horse in this country that could beat Smarty up to 1&1/4.He expected great things to come.Who will ever know?I guess we did get BS'd by the trainer and owner.I couldn't figure out the no ship to Belmont for a good workout over the track before the Belmont Stakes, when Servis said the horse was so frisky.As for the poor Mr. Chapman "I'm justa ham and egger"-I wish I could afford ham with my eggs.I wish I could be a poor millionaire too.

Valuist
08-03-2004, 12:19 PM
We're not so much busting on the horse as we are on the connections. Its not his fault that the Triple Crown races get 99% of the horse racing coverage, as far as the general public is concerned.

KingChas
08-03-2004, 12:31 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Valuist
You still can't take away the Derby and Preakness wins. The fear is that he may get exposed....I've got news for you, Mr. and Mrs Chapman: people who have mares that might breed to him already know that he wasn't the second coming of Secretariat.

Your not busting the horse?
You can foresee Smarty's breeding potential?
Exposed like maybe nationally?I have never heard anyone say "Smarty was the greatest horse ever".But he sure was DAMM GOOD!

Valuist
08-03-2004, 02:55 PM
I don't think I'm busting him. I'm just not saying he was the second coming of Secretariat. There was no basis at all for that talk after the Preakness. And some of the idiotic predictions; I think Battaglia said he'd win the Belmont by 20 lengths. I've felt he was more Triple Crown worthy than the other recent TC attemptees but even if he had won the Belmont, I don't think he would've been considered as good as those 3 champions from the 70s.

KingChas
08-03-2004, 11:28 PM
What I'm saying is don't come down on Smartys accomplishments because of the media.They need to sell papers,tv ad time etc.I know this is going to piss some people off,but most of the media people are morons.How many Secretariat 2nd comings have there been.Easy Goer-Favorite Trick-Point Given-Empire Maker-Fusachi-etc.....2 yr old Grade 1's -NY or Cal your in.The difference with Slew,Spectacular and Smarty was keeping the unbeaten streak going into the 3rd leg.Thats what seperates them from the others.The Big Red Horse--------Secretariat-------is still #1.His times on both the dirt and turf are amazing.Would he have ever been beaten on the turf?How many more track records would he have broken?

PS; USA media--Dallas Cowboys America's Team!
Guess us fans that root for other teams(Eagles-Giants-Pats-etc.) live in Canada huh?

Zaf
08-03-2004, 11:34 PM
Even if Smarty was 100 % sound, continuing to race him would be a huge risk. If you had an asset worth 48 Million, wouldn't you do everything possible to protect your interests ? By keeping him in the shed that value will not depreciate. By racing him you would possibly risk losing all. Does this make sense ?

:confused:

ZAFONIC

KingChas
08-04-2004, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by Valuist
We're not so much busting on the horse as we are on the connections. Its not his fault that the Triple Crown races get 99% of the horse racing coverage, as far as the general public is concerned.

Hasn't this been going on for the last 100+ years.I am a 365 day a year horseracing fan.The Triple Crown Races are the most watched followed a close second by the Breeders Cup(FACT SIR).Are you suggesting they stop or don't broadcast the Triple Crown races?Because I'm sure eventually you will have to pay to see it(ala-pay per view)past our time I hope.What do you want to watch the 10 yr old claiming championship at Penn National?
I guess the first Saturday in May we should just cut our grass.

CryingForTheHorses
08-04-2004, 08:48 AM
I understand ALL your beefs with the retirement of SMARTY..Lets put it this way..NOW you all know what I knew AFTER the belmont..That HE is a hurting unit..Now that everybody has come clean and SAID he is sore..WOULD you rather see him run..THEN be VANNED off..WHAT if the SERVIS team NEVER said a thing, RAN him and he BROKE down..THEN everyone would have said the SERVIS team was GREEDY...THEY CANT WIN. WOULD that SATISFY all of you?
When I saw him walking in that enclosure, I gasped...He stood at his water bucket...took a drink and then almost fell on his head as he started to walk away..Funny how NOBODY saw it..OR they didnt want to BELEIVE it.I have asked you guys to LOOK at his poster winning the derby..LOOK at his LEFT FRONT FOOT...You will see a foot that has been FILLED IN..LOOK at the hoof under a magnifining glass..YOU will see it then MAYBE change your minds about how you feel. I know there is a lot of money at risk here,I also would like to see a 3yo derby runner run at a later age, BUT if the horse really cant do it ..Enough said

PaceAdvantage
08-04-2004, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
When I saw him walking in that enclosure, I gasped...He stood at his water bucket...took a drink and then almost fell on his head as he started to walk away..Funny how NOBODY saw it..OR they didnt want to BELEIVE it.


Seriously, were you watching the same broadcast I was? Give me a break! Almost fell on his head???????????????? WOW!

CryingForTheHorses
08-04-2004, 10:28 AM
PA..Do you not look at a horse when he walks or steps away???..PLEASE tell me what YOU saw..I guess your friends also saw nothing. I am trained not to look for the good but to look for the bad.THATS what a GOOD trainer does..ITS just my way.HAVE you looked at the poster I am talking about?..WHY do you REFUSE to BELEIVE??..Maybe in reality you really dont know what to look for..I didnt say that after the belmont because I THOUGHT I saw.I called this right from the beginning..I do have a keen eye, MAYBE a little keener then you think..GIVE me some credit will you..

PaceAdvantage
08-04-2004, 10:55 AM
I saw nothing but a tired horse being cooled out in a very small circle by the barn. And when I get the video up, so can everyone else.

Valuist
08-04-2004, 10:58 AM
Let's not kid ourselves; these "injuries" to top quality 3YOs are probably far more imagined than real. Why don't the owners just be honest? "We know we can make more money from him next year as a stallion than a racehorse. It's about business." I could at least have respected for them being honest. Instead they must think the general public is either very stupid or naive to believe them. There's nothing wrong with making a business decision but there is about lying about it. Like I said earlier, once a car dealer, always a car dealer.

PaceAdvantage
08-04-2004, 11:02 AM
Here's the video....see if this works....if it does, tell us what you think about what you are seeing....

This won't be up for long, so check it out now....

Video of Smarty Cooling Out After Belmont (http://www.paceadvantage.com/Smart2.mpeg)

Pace Cap'n
08-04-2004, 01:58 PM
At the very start of the video, when SJ takes a few short, slow steps, he MAY be favoring his right front....(note the "MAY")

A very nice looking blonde hanging on the fence toward the end of the video....

And when I pause and restart it a few times, my computer locks up.....

CryingForTheHorses
08-04-2004, 01:59 PM
Cant see the video,WISH I could..ANOTHER question Mr PA...HAVE YOU looked at his LEFT FRONT FOOT..DO YOU NOT see how he is taking BAD steps..Why is it that you are NOT wanting to admit that he was sore..HELL I watched the belmont with several horseman and ALL of us were shocked at what we saw..NOT trying to argue this point any further,YOU seem to think you are right and NOBODY will argue with you cause your the moderator of this form.HORSES are my world PA and I make my living off them.I bet YOU would be a BAD owner because you wouldnt let a trainer do his job,,GUESS this comes from MISTRUSTING people.

PaceAdvantage
08-04-2004, 02:10 PM
Why do you constantly have to jump to personal conclusions??

I would be a bad owner?? Where do you get this crap from? If I had a trainer whom I trusted and believed was competent, of course I would let him or her do their job. But thanks for the free (unsolicited) analysis of my potential as a future owner....

Back to the point at hand...all I'm looking for is a second and third opinion here.

On the one hand, we have you saying Smarty is about to fall on his head he's so lame. Now we have Pace Capn saying he MAY be favoring his right front. That's a far cry from falling over lame.

Let's get a few other opinions, preferably from some "horse people" whom I know frequent this board.....

If they all agree with you McSchell, then I will offer my humblest of apologies and crown you Mr. Eagle Eyes 2004.

CryingForTheHorses
08-04-2004, 02:11 PM
Bill Foster Smarty's main companion and shed row foreman will be on and he is not too happy, John Hamilton from Three Chimneys, Bob Kulina NJ sports Auth. and Gm of Monmouth, Dr. Ben Schachter on just what are these "injuries" and more... 8-10pm est at www.1400thefan.com you can e-mail questions to samm@1400thefan.com

MAYBE we will get some LONGAWAITED answers

PaceAdvantage
08-04-2004, 02:14 PM
If you're having trouble, you may want to just download the clip if you have high speed (it's 6 megs)

Just right click on the link and "Save Target As" to your hard drive to view offline.....

I'm going to take the clip down in a few more hours....

If anyone has videotape of the Belmont Stakes, this clip is near the end of the telecast, when they are interviewing Marylou Whitney in the winner's circle. They cut to Smarty cooling out 2 or 3 times, but only once is he shown walking....that's the clip I put up here....

CryingForTheHorses
08-04-2004, 02:28 PM
OMG PA you just dont get it!!..FALL ON HIS HEAD...In horsemans terms..BAD STEPS..Watch him as he leaves his water bucket...DONT watch the legs..WATCH his head..LOOK at how STIFF he is..If you want to go a little further..Watch him as he is walking on the turf waiting to get his picture taken..I dont need other people opinions to KNOW what I did see.I have had crippled horses,HAD many that were thrown into the garbage can and won with them.I do have a good eye Mr PA and am NOT looking for any apology from you or anyone else.Please MR PA..LOOK at the foot if you get a chance..ALSO when you do look at him in the winners enclosure..LOOK at how his shoulder is trembling...LOTS of things will tell you a horse is sore besides BAD STEPS..YOU just have to be trained to see it..LOTS of good horseman can miss things on a horse,Lots of things are overlooked on a horse and thats why they bounce in races.When a horse cools out after a race he should be walking out and striding along..NOT taking LITTLE steps like SMARTY is doing.

PaceAdvantage
08-04-2004, 03:19 PM
Not all horses act the same, even you will admit this. You have no idea what "Normal" is to Smarty Jones, cause all you have to go on is a 22 second video clip seen on TV. You were not around him on a day to day basis.

Any horse that runs his heart out in the Belmont Stakes is NOT going to look like he just got back from an easy breeze.

I get it plenty. I know plenty of horsemen. I don't see how you can responsibly make such claims based on a dubious video clip seen on TV. If you were around the horse on a regular basis, then I'd take your opinion at face value. That's all I'm saying.

I don't think you're being fair to the horse, or his connections.

I've been around racing on the frontside and the backside for 17 years. I may not have a trainer's license, but I know a thing or two about horses....I'm not as dumb as you're trying to make me out to be, nor do I claim to know it all.

I'm still waiting to hear someone else's opinion about this that will agree with your "no doubt about it" OPINION.

PaceAdvantage
08-04-2004, 03:26 PM
I've come to the conclusion that this is silly. I'm finished arguing about this. You have your opinion, I have mine. Let's leave it at that. OK?

Observer
08-04-2004, 04:15 PM
I'll throw my hat into the ring here .. first .. yes, this has gotten pretty silly .. second .. the video clip is so short .. just flip a coin as to whether he's sore or not, and you've got a 50% shot of being correct. And as for this already short clip .. half of it is tarnished by the foreman kicking the ground, and throwing Smarty "off stride" .. and how could anyone expect a horse to run a race like Smarty did .. and not be tired, or even sore .. finally .. if Smarty was having so many "problems" .. why were they even trying to bring him back at all??

Everyone is entitled to their opinions .. but let's not forget, a certain trainer was crying out for the retirement of a certain prized Horse of the Year pupil because of a bowed tendon ... but this Horse of the Year has added 2 more grade 1s and become the top North American female earning .. so even the "experts" can be wrong.

Bottom line .. that video clip is too short to make any positive declarations .. especially with a handler getting in the way of a clear walk, of an understandably tired horse.

Observer
08-04-2004, 04:16 PM
For the record, the video clip is less than 8 seconds.

CryingForTheHorses
08-04-2004, 04:57 PM
PA SMARTY did one hell of job racing. His aches and pains were well earned. I will MISS him and am just as dismayed at his retirement.Im also sure he has had the BEST of Vets look at him.I also think that if he had won the TC, They would have retired him right away.Really doesnt matter if he was/is sore,ALL we have now are the MEMORIES
PS
your a good guy PA
Come to ft lauderdaleand Ill buy you a beer ;)

peakpros
08-04-2004, 05:28 PM
QUOTE]Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
PA..Do you not look at a horse when he walks or steps away???..PLEASE tell me what YOU saw..I guess your friends also saw nothing. I am trained not to look for the good but to look for the bad.THATS what a GOOD trainer does..ITS just my way.HAVE you looked at the poster I am talking about?..WHY do you REFUSE to BELEIVE??..Maybe in reality you really dont know what to look for..I didnt say that after the belmont because I THOUGHT I saw.I called this right from the beginning..I do have a keen eye, MAYBE a little keener then you think..GIVE me some credit will you.. [/QUOTE]




Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
Cant see the video,WISH I could..ANOTHER question Mr PA...HAVE YOU looked at his LEFT FRONT FOOT..DO YOU NOT see how he is taking BAD steps..Why is it that you are NOT wanting to admit that he was sore..HELL I watched the belmont with several horseman and ALL of us were shocked at what we saw..NOT trying to argue this point any further,YOU seem to think you are right and NOBODY will argue with you cause your the moderator of this form.HORSES are my world PA and I make my living off them.I bet YOU would be a BAD owner because you wouldnt let a trainer do his job,,GUESS this comes from MISTRUSTING people.



McShell,

I find your posts like the ones above to be rude and totally out of place.

My opinion is that you wish to argue your point in such a fashion to prove to us you are a gifted trainer. Well it isn't working for me.

Maybe your posts bother me more than most people here because am fortunate enough to own horses. And I have spent allot of time with hard working, humble, sincere trainers who have been willing to educate me without once putting me down.

I suggest you give it a try.

CryingForTheHorses
08-04-2004, 05:47 PM
WHY are they rude?
I never put anyone down?
NEVER said NOR do I THINK I am a GIFTED trainer..Thats your opinion.
All I am doing is speaking my mind, JUST like you are. I am NOT trying to offend anyone and myself have met and taught MANY humble people and horseman.Im glad you own horses so you do know just how many things may go wrong.Im also sorry if ALL my posts offend YOU..NEVER thought I was offending people.

PaceAdvantage
08-04-2004, 06:39 PM
Better yet McSchell, why don't you ship up to Saratoga around the 21st of August and a bunch of us will buy you a beer or two or three!!! LOL

CryingForTheHorses
08-04-2004, 07:01 PM
3 beers and Id be 2 sheets to the wind..YEAH YEAH..Get me drunk then beat me up lol
WOULD love to go..Havent been there since 1980.Kind of hard to leave here as someone has to train my horse.Also have a filly selling in the OBS sale aug 23,Hell if she sells for a good amount, I just may see you there.

KingChas
08-04-2004, 11:36 PM
Let's see PA buys a horse-Mcschell trains it, they win Triple Crown.
PA fires Mcschell-------Jimmy Jones and Jimmy Johnson all over again. Love It! Keep up the good debates guys makes life a lot more enjoyable.As for being rude no way-let em fight it out in the trenches! Free Beer For All---------------------KingChas

KingChas
08-05-2004, 12:09 AM
You know I watched this video 8 times.I am not an expert on this,but he is favoring his right front or rear.Watch when he walks his left rear hoof comes almost touching his left front hoof.Then watch his right rear hoof he's almost baby stepping,it doesn't come close to his right front hoof.Did I succede in confusing the hell out of everyone?I think McSchell might have a point.Also when video first shows Smarty, his head movement looks like hes in a little bit of distress.

PaceAdvantage
08-05-2004, 01:38 AM
OK, I pulled the video clip....it may pop up again for a little while tomorrow, but for the most part, don't expect the link to work anymore....

Dancer's Image
08-05-2004, 10:02 AM
Let's see...one person agrees with McSchell and PA pulls the video....hmmm, bout as subtle as a jackhammer!

(just yanking your chain a bit, PA...I actually admire how you and McSchell have handled your differences in this thread)

Pace Cap'n
08-05-2004, 01:37 PM
And nobody noticed the blonde???

PaceAdvantage
08-05-2004, 08:48 PM
It's a big clip, and it bogs down the server, among other things. It was up there all day yesterday, and most of the day today...might be up again tomorrow.....

Plus, you also have the copyright issues involved....

Tom
08-05-2004, 08:51 PM
The real reason Smarty Jones is retiring has noting to do with an injury...he just wants to smoke pot with Ricky Williams! :D

Zaf
08-05-2004, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by Tom
The real reason Smarty Jones is retiring has noting to do with an injury...he just wants to smoke pot with Ricky Williams! :D

and Quincy Carter :D

ZAFONIC

KingChas
08-05-2004, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Tom
The real reason Smarty Jones is retiring has noting to do with an injury...he just wants to smoke pot with Ricky Williams! :D

I heard Smarty was seen hanging out with Tapit after the Belmont.They were drinking a lot of beer!Every morning!