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View Full Version : Belmont Doings: Classic Empire, Japanese Invader Epicharis likely; 13 considering


Blenheim
05-23-2017, 10:23 AM
http://www.drf.com/news/belmont-doings-classic-empire-japanese-invader-epicharis-likely-run

Racetrack Playa
05-23-2017, 12:24 PM
Interview with @ Kiyoshi Hagiwara Epicharis (http://www.drf.com/horse/epicharis){@3:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izdooWdu-jU

betovernetcapper
05-29-2017, 03:45 PM
I followed Lani's efforts here, & he just didn't have enough early speed to compete. If you couple that with his sort of immature behavior off track, he had no chance. As I recall he just sort of inherited 3rd in the Belmont. His trainer said that while he wanted to come back, people were rude to him.

At any rate if this horse doesn't have enough speed to stay in contact with the leader, he might as well stay home. Just my 2$:)

Afleet
05-29-2017, 05:26 PM
IRAP going to the Ohio Derby

Rex Phinney
05-29-2017, 10:21 PM
Classic Empire should win this race easily if he gets even a C+ ride

LemonSoupKid
06-01-2017, 01:42 PM
Classic Empire should win this race easily if he gets even a C+ ride

I don't see him getting the distance and was totally unimpressed with how he found a way to (not win?) lose in the Preakness.

Can I throw out the dismissive "toss" if in fact he won't be on my tickets? :popcorn:

LemonSoupKid
06-01-2017, 01:43 PM
Anyone have last quarter times for the Preakness?

Longshot
06-01-2017, 02:21 PM
Anyone have last quarter times for the Preakness?

Here are the Final Quarters for Preakness horses from my program.

Senior Investment............25.15
Lookin At Lucky...............25.20
Multiplier........................25.31
Classic Empire.................25.70
Conquest Mo Money.........25.82

Bennie
06-01-2017, 07:26 PM
Conquest Mo Money to pass on Belmont.

LemonSoupKid
06-02-2017, 11:17 AM
Has any horse run in the Derby and Preakness, not having won, to come back and win in the Belmont?

I can't recall this ever happening. I think it's another reason why I'm loving tossing Classic Empire in this upcoming gem.

As an aside, do you guys think that the Preakness wasn't a relatively broken down scenario? How can you excuse CE's performance after that trip and his positiong/lead at the top of the strech (and into the final furlong)?

Wiley
06-02-2017, 05:45 PM
Has any horse run in the Derby and Preakness, not having won, to come back and win in the Belmont?

I can't recall this ever happening. I think it's another reason why I'm loving tossing Classic Empire in this upcoming gem.

As an aside, do you guys think that the Preakness wasn't a relatively broken down scenario? How can you excuse CE's performance after that trip and his positiong/lead at the top of the strech (and into the final furlong)?

Bet Twice in 87

letswastemoney
06-03-2017, 01:29 PM
Classic Empire had reason to quit in the Preakness. He had to confront the Derby champion early in the midst of a fast pace, and then hold off the closers.

Getting tired at shorter distances doesn't always mean the horse can't win going longer. If that were true, Palace Malice wouldn't have gone from fading in the Kentucky Derby to winning the Belmont.

Dahoss9698
06-03-2017, 02:59 PM
Getting tired at shorter distances doesn't always mean the horse can't win going longer. If that were true, Palace Malice wouldn't have gone from fading in the Kentucky Derby to winning the Belmont.

I agree with your premise but the example is a poor one. Palice Malice ran off in the Derby with the addition of blinkers. Blinkers off in the Belmont allowed him to relax.

LemonSoupKid
06-03-2017, 04:48 PM
Classic Empire had reason to quit in the Preakness. He had to confront the Derby champion early in the midst of a fast pace, and then hold off the closers.

Getting tired at shorter distances doesn't always mean the horse can't win going longer. If that were true, Palace Malice wouldn't have gone from fading in the Kentucky Derby to winning the Belmont.

Palace Malice didn't run 3 [grueling] races in 5 weeks. Thus, my last question.

LemonSoupKid
06-03-2017, 04:54 PM
Bet Twice in 87

Thanks. I just had a look at Bet Twice (FOY winner), barely losing twice in Derby and Preakness to Alysheba, then showing he was actually better than Alysheba in the Belmont, Haskell, then neither fired in the sloppy track Travers. Sounds like a top 3 year old. I'm fine that this is the only example to date; I don't see a resume of Classic Empire anywhere near Bet Twice, though admittedly CE could mature into it. I just don't find this group anywhere near as classy, and CE hasn't really impressed me in any of his races as a 3 year old. The last one was good, but disappointing ultimately, which is exactly what my opinion of him is.

Fightingirish51195
06-04-2017, 08:26 PM
Classic Empire had reason to quit in the Preakness. He had to confront the Derby champion early in the midst of a fast pace, and then hold off the closers.

Getting tired at shorter distances doesn't always mean the horse can't win going longer. If that were true, Palace Malice wouldn't have gone from fading in the Kentucky Derby to winning the Belmont.

Tire at 6 win at 7. One of the oldest angles in the book

Fightingirish51195
06-04-2017, 08:30 PM
Will be rooting for classic empire, but won't bet at under 2-1 and there's a good chance he will be. Horse is a fighter I'll say that much. Cat thief was too. His mothers father.

I'm giving a serious look at Irish War Cry. Think he's in for a big big performance.

Tapwrit has a chance

I like that horse twisted Tom. He keeps running. Butttt his begets a concern. He needs to improve on those

Quesmark
06-05-2017, 01:01 AM
Has any horse run in the Derby and Preakness, not having won, to come back and win in the Belmont?

I can't recall this ever happening. I think it's another reason why I'm loving tossing Classic Empire in this upcoming gem.


Bet Twice in 87

Easy Goer in 1989 did it too.

LemonSoupKid
06-05-2017, 03:35 PM
Easy Goer in 1989 did it too.

Yes sir, similar to my thoughts on the two who ran in all 3, but won the Preakness and Belmont: Afleet Alex and Point Given.

My point is that these are historically great horses.

I'm not buying Classic Empire is even close to these. Can anyone even make the case?

I'll eat my words if he wins, forget odds. I find this one of the easier tosses in recent history. If 2-1, you'd have to be a damn fool to bet that horse.

menifee
06-05-2017, 03:41 PM
You cannot bet CE because of the price. Could he win the race, sure. But I don't give him a high chance to do so. I actually think this Belmont could set up for a bomb. CE will get bet. Epicharis will get bet. Irish War Cry will get bet. I don't like any of those.

Longshot
06-05-2017, 05:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LemonSoupKid View Post
Has any horse run in the Derby and Preakness, not having won, to come back and win in the Belmont?

I can't recall this ever happening. I think it's another reason why I'm loving tossing Classic Empire in this upcoming gem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiley View Post
Bet Twice in 87
Easy Goer in 1989 did it too.


Add Victory Gallop in 1998 to he list of horses that hit the board in both the Derby and Preakness and then won the Belmont.

Racetrack Playa
06-05-2017, 05:48 PM
Has any horse run in the Derby and Preakness, not having won, to come back and win in the Belmont?

1963 -Amberoid , I think he ran in all 3 ,and won the Belmont.

LemonSoupKid
06-06-2017, 01:29 PM
Quote:
Add Victory Gallop in 1998 to he list of horses that hit the board in both the Derby and Preakness and then won the Belmont.

Not that I'm looking for reasons to make it harder for CE, but again, Victory Gallop was 2nd-2nd-won.

Amberoid 1966 Wood winner, finished 7th Derby, 3rd Preakness, won the Belmont. That's a good counter-example, also 11 starters too in the Belmont --- but happened 50 years ago.

LemonSoupKid
06-06-2017, 01:35 PM
You cannot bet CE because of the price. Could he win the race, sure. But I don't give him a high chance to do so. I actually think this Belmont could set up for a bomb. CE will get bet. Epicharis will get bet. Irish War Cry will get bet. I don't like any of those.

This is what I'm stressing the most: I would require a minimum of 5-1 to even think about Classic Empire. Given that's a 16.6% chance to win, and that lots of people will be betting him, it's a no brainer toss.

I find the latter two far more interesting; guessing their odds will also be interesting. I'm suspecting they'll be bet more than I'm expecting ...