Great News! Stronach Group is sending Ritvo to Santa Anita to revitalize track

[Andy Asaro]

http://www.latimes.com/sports/more/la-sp-santa-anita-shakeup-20170520-story.html

Excerpt:


Tim Ritvo, chief operating officer of the Stronach Racing Group, is being sent west to help “implement best practices,” Sal Sinatra confirmed to The Times. Sinatra is the Maryland Jockey Club president and general manager.

Ritvo will arrive in Southern California in a few days and take up residence in a house that adjoins the downhill turf course at Santa Anita.

[dilanesp]

http://www.latimes.com/sports/more/la-sp-santa-anita-shakeup-20170520-story.html

Excerpt:


Tim Ritvo, chief operating officer of the Stronach Racing Group, is being sent west to help “implement best practices,” Sal Sinatra confirmed to The Times. Sinatra is the Maryland Jockey Club president and general manager.

Ritvo will arrive in Southern California in a few days and take up residence in a house that adjoins the downhill turf course at Santa Anita.


Santa Anita functions fairly well as a racetrack (it can still draw a big crowd, for instance) but is in deep trouble because of short fields and a big time horse shortage.

Hopefully Ritvo trues to address that.

[Andy Asaro]

Gotta take on the TOC and convince Belinda that we have to sell it as gambling game of skill.

[JustRalph]

Unless he's bringing about 500 hundred horses with him....wasted time

[SuperPickle]

Like him or hate him he's probably the best racetrack executive in the country at the moment.

Like Santa Anita or hate it the place is in trouble. They're life and death to race 4 days a week.

So my analysis is simple. I'm not sure if anyone can help Santa Anita but if anyone can its this guy.

Btw... one of things I know he'll look at is the viability of current race week. If the racing office says they can't do Thursdays right he'll move to axe them. At Gulfstream he preferred longer cards on the weekend. In the winter months they clearly had enough horses to race six days if they wanted to during the height of the meet. But he ran 11-12 races on the weekend sometimes even 13. He buys into the fact more races on Saturdays and Sundays are better. Notice Laurel has also gone to three days and their business is trending up.

So I'm pretty sure a three day race week is coming. Cue the sobbing of the horsemen.

[Andy Asaro]

Like him or hate him he's probably the best racetrack executive in the country at the moment.

Like Santa Anita or hate it the place is in trouble. They're life and death to race 4 days a week.

So my analysis is simple. I'm not sure if anyone can help Santa Anita but if anyone can its this guy.

Btw... one of things I know he'll look at is the viability of current race week. If the racing office says they can't do Thursdays right he'll move to axe them. At Gulfstream he preferred longer cards on the weekend. In the winter months they clearly had enough horses to race six days if they wanted to during the height of the meet. But he ran 11-12 races on the weekend sometimes even 13. He buys into the fact more races on Saturdays and Sundays are better. Notice Laurel has also gone to three days and their business is trending up.

So I'm pretty sure a three day race week is coming. Cue the sobbing of the horsemen.

Belinda is the only one who can save it but it's up to Ritvo to open her eyes to real solutions.

[theiman]

Andy,
Were you aware that Prime Ticket, in LA and OC, hasnt shown TVG for about 6 weeks now.
I e-mailed them yesterday, but dont expect a response until at least tomorrow.

For those not aware, Prime Ticket is Fox Sports West 2.

Nobody at SA knows why it was dropped. I get TVG on my cable but not in HD. Prime Ticket was/is in HD. Not sure if other Fox Sports Networks dropped TVG around the country.

They show UFC replays during the mid day when live racing is on.

[Andy Asaro]

Andy,
Were you aware that Prime Ticket, in LA and OC, hasnt shown TVG for about 6 weeks now.
I e-mailed them yesterday, but dont expect a response until at least tomorrow.

For those not aware, Prime Ticket is Fox Sports West 2.

Nobody at SA knows why it was dropped. I get TVG on my cable but not in HD. Prime Ticket was/is in HD. Not sure if other Fox Sports Networks dropped TVG around the country.

They show UFC replays during the mid day when live racing is on.

I had heard that. The Stronach Group can only control what was in the deal when they sold HRTV to TVG. I'd imagine that TVG doesn't want to spend the money to go on that channel but I'm just speculating. Hopefully with Ritvo there things will be different in a positive way.

I need to get off my ass and just stream the tracks I'm playing. That way I don't have to put up with split screens and the hosts not mentioning the winners odds when they cross the wire.

[Afleet]

Stronach is too busy suing Derbywars

[whodoyoulike]

Andy,
Were you aware that Prime Ticket, in LA and OC, hasnt shown TVG for about 6 weeks now.
I e-mailed them yesterday, but dont expect a response until at least tomorrow.

For those not aware, Prime Ticket is Fox Sports West 2.

Nobody at SA knows why it was dropped. I get TVG on my cable but not in HD. Prime Ticket was/is in HD. Not sure if other Fox Sports Networks dropped TVG around the country.

They show UFC replays during the mid day when live racing is on.

Can you keep us updated on this?

I'm uncertain if my racing channel is FSW2 but I've noticed mine hasn't shown horse racing in some time. I've been relying on my ADW but they've made changes a couple months ago and watching the races has changed or I just haven't figured it out yet. I emailed my ADW and their reply wasn't very helpful.

Thanks.

[elhelmete]

Unless he's bringing about 500 hundred horses with him....wasted time

Yes, exactly.

Gotta engage the TOC too, good luck. Didn't Lou Raffetto last 10 minutes here? And he's a terrific exec as well.

It's an awesome facility, and customer service really is top notch. Lots of improvements over the past 5 years to the physical plant.

[elhelmete]

Gotta take on the TOC and convince Belinda that we have to sell it as gambling game of skill.

I respect your opinion quite a bit Andy, but wonder specifically about the bolded above.

What track operator sells horseplaying as a game of skill?

What would that 'look like?'

Compared to most tracks I've been to, I find Santa Anita to be pretty progressive as far as bettor education and offering help to newbies. The weekend handicapping seminars are pretty good too.

If anything it seems like Stronach has almost mimicked the casinos who, in the face of declining gaming revenue, amped up their food/bev/accommodation offerings (and prices) to make up for it.

[castaway01]

Unless he's bringing about 500 hundred horses with him....wasted time

Exactly. And you can replace "Santa Anita" with "Monmouth" or 20 other tracks and you'd still have the same issue. Horse racing is not a viable investment, so there aren't enough horses to participate in it, which makes it less of a viable investment, which leads to fewer horses, etc. Can't sell an attractive betting product when you don't have anyone to run in the races.

[Andy Asaro]

I respect your opinion quite a bit Andy, but wonder specifically about the bolded above.

What track operator sells horseplaying as a game of skill?

What would that 'look like?'

Compared to most tracks I've been to, I find Santa Anita to be pretty progressive as far as bettor education and offering help to newbies. The weekend handicapping seminars are pretty good too.

If anything it seems like Stronach has almost mimicked the casinos who, in the face of declining gaming revenue, amped up their food/bev/accommodation offerings (and prices) to make up for it.

https://www.paulickreport.com/horseplayers-category/asaro-ground-zero-in-fight-for-future-of-horse-racing/

Billboards, print ads, digital ads saying

1. There's gambling at Santa Anita (sounds nuts but most don't know)

2. At Santa Anita we now pay more when you win. Stop by and gamble on the greatest gambling game of skill ever created.


And the Jockey Club and the NTRA already agreed to use Ca as a test jurisdiction to sell horse racing as a gambling game of skill and that they would support it if asked by Santa Anita and the TOC

[Andy Asaro]

Tim Ritvo to stay at Santa Anita for a while

http://www.drf.com/news/tim-ritvo-stay-santa-anita-while

Excerpt:

In a phone interview, Ritvo said he plans to arrive at Santa Anita this weekend.

“I want to spend more time out there like I should be,” he said. “I want to observe. There are no silver bullets and I can see what we can do to make things better.

“We’re going to come in and evaluate and see what’s been working and what needs help.

“I can dig into different issues.”

[elhelmete]

https://www.paulickreport.com/horseplayers-category/asaro-ground-zero-in-fight-for-future-of-horse-racing/

Billboards, print ads, digital ads saying

1. There's gambling at Santa Anita (sounds nuts but most don't know)

2. At Santa Anita we now pay more when you win. Stop by and gamble on the greatest gambling game of skill ever created.


And the Jockey Club and the NTRA already agreed to use Ca as a test jurisdiction to sell horse racing as a gambling game of skill and that they would support it if asked by Santa Anita and the TOC

Hmmm, I dunno, color me a bit skeptical (but still grateful for your continued opinion and hard work).

People really don't know you can gamble at racetracks? Or is it Santa Anita specific? Just really hard to believe.

I don't dispute your dissertation on churn, but for the new and new-ish gambler, when does he 'notice' he's losing the grind to takeout? If a newbie cashes a $2 exacta for $38.00 what's the psychology required to have to implant the notion that he should have gotten $40.20? By comparison, I suppose, a slots player could say "damn, $100 used to last me an hour, now it lasts 40 minutes." My friends who are blackjack players have been lamenting the proliferation of 6-5 tables for a while now. At least one casino I know of has been brash enough to introduce a 3-zero roulette wheel hoping players won't notice, or at least won't see other options.

[Andy Asaro]

Hmmm, I dunno, color me a bit skeptical (but still grateful for your continued opinion and hard work).

People really don't know you can gamble at racetracks? Or is it Santa Anita specific? Just really hard to believe.

I don't dispute your dissertation on churn, but for the new and new-ish gambler, when does he 'notice' he's losing the grind to takeout? If a newbie cashes a $2 exacta for $38.00 what's the psychology required to have to implant the notion that he should have gotten $40.20? By comparison, I suppose, a slots player could say "damn, $100 used to last me an hour, now it lasts 40 minutes." My friends who are blackjack players have been lamenting the proliferation of 6-5 tables for a while now. At least one casino I know of has been brash enough to introduce a 3-zero roulette wheel hoping players won't notice, or at least won't see other options.

If you ask the leadership of any alphabet organization in Ca they will tell you that we need more horses. Of course we need more horses but there is history on this matter.

In 2010 they said we need more horses. Well how do we get more horses? Well, we have to have bigger purses. Well, how do we get bigger purses? Well we can either make a serious attempt to grow handle and revenue or we can raise the takeout again.

The takeout hike in 2011 was supposed to fix everything. Read what K.B. said in 2010.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/140248/put-the-fun-back-in-racing-brackpool-urges

Excerpt:

“We offer in California the premier racing product on a year-round basis,” he said, “but we were offering our first-class product at a discount price. We’re changing the pricing model. We left win-place-show where it is. But we came up with a solution that will produce $30 million more a year. That’s a 25-to-30% increase in overnight purses.

[elhelmete]

If you ask the leadership of any alphabet organization in Ca they will tell you that we need more horses. Of course we need more horses but there is history on this matter.

In 2010 they said we need more horses. Well how do we get more horses? Well, we have to have bigger purses. Well, how do we get bigger purses? Well we can either make a serious attempt to grow handle and revenue or we can raise the takeout again.

The takeout hike in 2011 was supposed to fix everything. Read what K.B. said in 2010.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/140248/put-the-fun-back-in-racing-brackpool-urges

Excerpt:

“We offer in California the premier racing product on a year-round basis,” he said, “but we were offering our first-class product at a discount price. We’re changing the pricing model. We left win-place-show where it is. But we came up with a solution that will produce $30 million more a year. That’s a 25-to-30% increase in overnight purses.

Yeah, I totally get it, it was shortsighted and wrong to think a rake hike for the most popular exotic wouldn't have a deleterious effect in the long run. No argument there.

But I keep coming back to the horse (and my extension, ownership) problem.

Let's say we go back to 1990 when we had 40,000 foals and few (any?) slot-fueled tracks. California, as always, occupied it's own niche back then with whatever advantages and disadvantages to owners choosing where to race their stock. In relative terms, California wasn't in terrible shape compared to other major jurisdictions.

Now with the crop cut in half...and slot $$$ seemingly everywhere except California...and California being an enormously expensive place to do business...the disadvantages of being an owner here are grossly magnified in even greater proportion than the drop in foal crop size would suggest.

I've been part of a syndicate in SoCal for a few years now and I'm not doing it again. No, I wasn't specifically trying to make $$ per se, but shit, I'd like to see my horses race and not sit in the barn burning $$$ waiting for a race to fill! Having an exacta pay $40.20 instead of $38.00 isn't alone going to make me stay in as an owner. It's necessary, but the situation is in triage right now and other steps are necessary alongside takeout changes.

[Andy Asaro]

Yeah, I totally get it, it was shortsighted and wrong to think a rake hike for the most popular exotic wouldn't have a deleterious effect in the long run. No argument there.

But I keep coming back to the horse (and my extension, ownership) problem.

Let's say we go back to 1990 when we had 40,000 foals and few (any?) slot-fueled tracks. California, as always, occupied it's own niche back then with whatever advantages and disadvantages to owners choosing where to race their stock. In relative terms, California wasn't in terrible shape compared to other major jurisdictions.

Now with the crop cut in half...and slot $$$ seemingly everywhere except California...and California being an enormously expensive place to do business...the disadvantages of being an owner here are grossly magnified in even greater proportion than the drop in foal crop size would suggest.

I've been part of a syndicate in SoCal for a few years now and I'm not doing it again. No, I wasn't specifically trying to make $$ per se, but shit, I'd like to see my horses race and not sit in the barn burning $$$ waiting for a race to fill! Having an exacta pay $40.20 instead of $38.00 isn't alone going to make me stay in as an owner. It's necessary, but the situation is in triage right now and other steps are necessary alongside takeout changes.

The Stronach Group has the ability to reverse course. They must make a deal with the Pomona Fairgrounds for a extra wide mile turf course with a dirt course inside and 2000 stalls and a state of the art vetrinary and equine clinic. It's the only way to get people out here. They can work and run 4 3 week meets per year on the Pomona surface. And it's good public relations during the fair to showcase how well we take care of the horses that race.

Without that there is no hope for California Racing.

[dilanesp]

The Stronach Group has the ability to reverse course. They must make a deal with the Pomona Fairgrounds for a extra wide mile turf course with a dirt course inside and 2000 stalls and a state of the art vetrinary and equine clinic. It's the only way to get people out here. They can work and run 4 3 week meets per year on the Pomona surface. And it's good public relations during the fair to showcase how well we take care of the horses that race.

Without that there is no hope for California Racing.

Nobody wants to go to Pomona for the races. (Indeed, Fairplex used to draw fairly well back in the day, and its on-track had been declining for over a decade. That's why they were so happy to give up their dates to Los Al.) Nobody wants to go to Los Al either. (A notable event for Los Al came when they had California Chrome for a race last year. California Chrome at Del Mar draws over 20,000 (he did it three times, including once in the cold in November). He drew 5,000 or so at Los Al.)

Santa Anita is actually the best facility LA can possibly have for racing. The track itself is nice, and kept in very good condition. It's in a beautiful natural setting. It has a great brand name-- honestly one of the best in the country, right alongside Churchill and Saratoga and Belmont and Del Mar. And Santa Anita still draws very well on big race days (opening day, Santa Anita Derby, Breeders' Cup) and pretty well for things like the Breeders' Cup preview card in October, the Santa Anita Handicap, and the Kentucky Derby simulcast. (Contrast this with Belmont, which doesn't draw for anything other than the Belmont Stakes despite being in the biggest metropolitan area in the country.)

I suspect that the reality is there is no marketing formula that can do more than nibble around the edges here, and that the only thing that's going to help Santa Anita in the long term is if they figure out a way to get more horses entered into their races which will increase daily handle.

But if you ARE going to do a marketing formula, it should be based on a simple fact: Santa Anita can already draw 71,000 on track for the Breeders' Cup and over 30,000 on track for the Santa Anita Derby and opening day. So your challenge is not to reinvent Santa Anita or open more tracks-- it's to get those people in LA who already enjoy horse racing (and who come out for the big days) to come out more often. That's it. If you can do that, Santa Anita will make a big profit and all the rest will follow.

[Andy Asaro]

Nobody wants to go to Pomona for the races. (Indeed, Fairplex used to draw fairly well back in the day, and its on-track had been declining for over a decade. That's why they were so happy to give up their dates to Los Al.) Nobody wants to go to Los Al either. (A notable event for Los Al came when they had California Chrome for a race last year. California Chrome at Del Mar draws over 20,000 (he did it three times, including once in the cold in November). He drew 5,000 or so at Los Al.)

Santa Anita is actually the best facility LA can possibly have for racing. The track itself is nice, and kept in very good condition. It's in a beautiful natural setting. It has a great brand name-- honestly one of the best in the country, right alongside Churchill and Saratoga and Belmont and Del Mar. And Santa Anita still draws very well on big race days (opening day, Santa Anita Derby, Breeders' Cup) and pretty well for things like the Breeders' Cup preview card in October, the Santa Anita Handicap, and the Kentucky Derby simulcast. (Contrast this with Belmont, which doesn't draw for anything other than the Belmont Stakes despite being in the biggest metropolitan area in the country.)

I suspect that the reality is there is no marketing formula that can do more than nibble around the edges here, and that the only thing that's going to help Santa Anita in the long term is if they figure out a way to get more horses entered into their races which will increase daily handle.

But if you ARE going to do a marketing formula, it should be based on a simple fact: Santa Anita can already draw 71,000 on track for the Breeders' Cup and over 30,000 on track for the Santa Anita Derby and opening day. So your challenge is not to reinvent Santa Anita or open more tracks-- it's to get those people in LA who already enjoy horse racing (and who come out for the big days) to come out more often. That's it. If you can do that, Santa Anita will make a big profit and all the rest will follow.

Los Al is too far away. Trainers (CTT) were for Pomona instead of Los Alamitos. So was Del Mar.

[elhelmete]

Nobody wants to go to Pomona for the races. (Indeed, Fairplex used to draw fairly well back in the day, and its on-track had been declining for over a decade. That's why they were so happy to give up their dates to Los Al.) Nobody wants to go to Los Al either. (A notable event for Los Al came when they had California Chrome for a race last year. California Chrome at Del Mar draws over 20,000 (he did it three times, including once in the cold in November). He drew 5,000 or so at Los Al.)

Santa Anita is actually the best facility LA can possibly have for racing. The track itself is nice, and kept in very good condition. It's in a beautiful natural setting. It has a great brand name-- honestly one of the best in the country, right alongside Churchill and Saratoga and Belmont and Del Mar. And Santa Anita still draws very well on big race days (opening day, Santa Anita Derby, Breeders' Cup) and pretty well for things like the Breeders' Cup preview card in October, the Santa Anita Handicap, and the Kentucky Derby simulcast. (Contrast this with Belmont, which doesn't draw for anything other than the Belmont Stakes despite being in the biggest metropolitan area in the country.)

I suspect that the reality is there is no marketing formula that can do more than nibble around the edges here, and that the only thing that's going to help Santa Anita in the long term is if they figure out a way to get more horses entered into their races which will increase daily handle.

But if you ARE going to do a marketing formula, it should be based on a simple fact: Santa Anita can already draw 71,000 on track for the Breeders' Cup and over 30,000 on track for the Santa Anita Derby and opening day. So your challenge is not to reinvent Santa Anita or open more tracks-- it's to get those people in LA who already enjoy horse racing (and who come out for the big days) to come out more often. That's it. If you can do that, Santa Anita will make a big profit and all the rest will follow.

I pretty much agree with all of this, although I kind of liked my times at Los Al (Vessels is a really pleasant place to spend a day at the races).

I can get virtually anyone to join me at SA (or DMR) for their first trip out. I can even get them to go more than once...they always remark how beautiful and upbeat the place is.

But once I start to ease them into "how do I bet on horses" it's like I'm watching the Picture of Dorian Gray as their eyes glaze over and their head drops and their jaw goes slack due to the over-abundance of info and vagaries of the potential payoffs. And I simplify the shit out of it for first-timers.

[elhelmete]

Los Al is too far away. Trainers (CTT) were for Pomona instead of Los Alamitos. So was Del Mar.

I've heard that from multiple sources too and I just assume it's true, but "too far away" from what? (For Los Al...DMR IS just simply too far) Wasn't it also about stall capacity too?

[VigorsTheGrey]

One of the big downsides to Santa Anita is the commute to get there and home...traffic is ALWAYS a nightmare in that part of SoCal...Thursdays and Fridays, the last race lets out around 5-6 PM...and then you have bumper to bumper traffic on the freeways in all directions for at least an hour to get home, if not longer...I really think traffic has a lot to do with why more people do not show up...it is a hassle to get there and back home, and elders dislike driving in LA...weekend traffic can be worse...

[elhelmete]

One of the big downsides to Santa Anita is the commute to get there and home...traffic is ALWAYS a nightmare in that part of SoCal...Thursdays and Fridays, the last race lets out around 5-6 PM...and then you have bumper to bumper traffic in all directions for at least an hour to get home, if not longer...I really think traffic has a lot to do with why more people do not show up...it is a hassle to get there and back home, and elders dislike driving in LA...weekend traffic can be worse...

Traffic sucks everywhere in SOCal...as it does in many urban areas with race tracks. But there's some truth here. Lately I've been reluctant to take a trip out (and I'm about 25 miles from SA) unless I glance at the entries first and check out field sizes.

[Andy Asaro]

I've heard that from multiple sources too and I just assume it's true, but "too far away" from what? (For Los Al...DMR IS just simply too far) Wasn't it also about stall capacity too?

They would have had to build more stalls and make a new dirt and turf course. It was expensive but it would have assured a future. Los Al will not be there in 5 years IMO. That's why I believe that if the Stronach Group sees a future in Ca they will have to use Pomona. IF they don't it means their gonna sell or close IMO

[airford1]

Could it be He's coming out to put a FORK in Santa Anita?

[VigorsTheGrey]

What are the main reasons for the horse shortage...?

How can those reasons be resolved...?

How can we get more horses carded now and in the future...?

[VigorsTheGrey]

Maybe they should try to let the Japanese manage the track and model Santa Anita Racecourse on Japanese Racing...?

[airford1]

One of the big downsides to Santa Anita is the commute to get there and home...traffic is ALWAYS a nightmare in that part of SoCal...Thursdays and Fridays, the last race lets out around 5-6 PM...and then you have bumper to bumper traffic on the freeways in all directions for at least an hour to get home, if not longer...I really think traffic has a lot to do with why more people do not show up...it is a hassle to get there and back home, and elders dislike driving in LA...weekend traffic can be worse...

I live 6 miles from Santa Anita. I only go to the track 4 or 5 times a year, but I bet from home most everyday. The product that California has to offer isn't worth our time anymore. 6 horse fields and 4/5 odds will bust your ass in short order. Cant Play what Santa Anita and California has to offer.

[elhelmete]

Maybe they should try to let the Japanese manage the track and model Santa Anita Racecourse on Japanese Racing...?

That would be quite ironic.

[VigorsTheGrey]

I live 6 miles from Santa Anita. I only go to the track 4 or 5 times a year, but I bet from home most everyday. The product that California has to offer isn't worth our time anymore. 6 horse fields and 4/5 odds will bust your ass in short order. Cant Play what Santa Anita and California has to offer.

Agree. But I still would like to know why the horse shortage problem...without solving THAT, they got nothing going forward....

[elhelmete]

They would have had to build more stalls and make a new dirt and turf course. It was expensive but it would have assured a future. Los Al will not be there in 5 years IMO. That's why I believe that if the Stronach Group sees a future in Ca they will have to use Pomona. IF they don't it means their gonna sell or close IMO

I was at Pomona fairgrounds for a gymnastics meet for my daughter and walked over to (and snuck into) the old grandstand. If it (and the track) needed a lot of work back before HOL closed in 2013, it would need double now.

[airford1]

Not enough Owners for the last 20 years, and that killed the breeding industry. The State has to find a way to allow owners to break even with some tax advantages or the Industry is dead. No owners+ no Breeders= no races=betters go to the Indian Casinos and that= NO TAX DOLLARS to the STATE. The Indians ride for free.

[elhelmete]

Agree. But I still would like to know why the horse shortage problem...without solving THAT, they got nothing going forward....

Horse shortages are a universal problem BUT they affect some jurisdictions far more than others. California being one of them. IMHO I don't think it would have taken a rocket scientist to predict. We knew we were never getting slots $$ to boost purses and demand for horses, and raising the take on the existing product was bound to yield a dead-cat bounce if anything.

[dilanesp]

Horse shortages are a universal problem BUT they affect some jurisdictions far more than others. California being one of them. IMHO I don't think it would have taken a rocket scientist to predict. We knew we were never getting slots $$ to boost purses and demand for horses, and raising the take on the existing product was bound to yield a dead-cat bounce if anything.

I don't think raising the takeout was a good idea, but I also don't think it has anything to do with California's problems.

Honestly, even when Southern California was doing very well in the 1980's, we had the beginnings of the horse shortage. The last three weeks of the Hollywood spring-summer meet, and the Hollywood fall meet, were often filled with 5 and 6 horse fields even then (especially in dirt races for winners). And at that time the tracks were averaging 20,000 attendance a day. It's just gotten progressively worse over a 30 year period.

And during that time, there were TONS of 6 horse fields at Golden Gate and Bay Meadows.

It's a contracting sport. And what I am telling you is, even in its heyday, we didn't actually have enough horses for two year round circuits. We had them because horsemen demanded it. So now with the smaller horse population, there's just no way.

Eventually, we need to come to grips with the fact that there isn't going to be year round racing in Southern California. That's the original sin here.

[Rex Phinney]

I'm enthralled by the notion that the Pomona Fairgrounds is the thing that California needs to save racing.

I just can't stop thinking about it. That the answer to it all is the Pomona Fairgounds. :confused:

The ownership thing is something they need to take a look at. Owners just get thrashed out here. Was there ever a bounce in California breeding when Chrome came along? Did anyone ever even try exploiting that to boost the crop?

Santa Anita is a top flight facility, there is nothing that can be done there to improve the situation, fixes have to come from promoting the game better and getting more owners involved/ motivated to send horses out here.

I'd be all in favor of a 3 day raceweek. Boost the purses as high as you can get them and see if you can't get the field size growing.

[elhelmete]

I don't think raising the takeout was a good idea, but I also don't think it has anything to do with California's problems.

I compare takeout rates to the principle of compounding interest.

The numbers are real...compounding interest is real. But if you start too late (like saving for retirement when you're already 53) you can't really make it work for you. Dropping takeout now might have a good effect but IMHO we don't have enough time to wait for the math to work...at least not without committing to additional measures.

[cj]

I'd be all in favor of a 3 day raceweek. Boost the purses as high as you can get them and see if you can't get the field size growing.

You're right about Pomona. That isn't saving anything. The quoted part above would be great, but horsemen will fight that tooth and nail. The guys with the horses don't want competitive races. They want short fields where they can dominate.

[PaceAdvantage]

Santa Anita has forever had a problem with attracting a huge amount of horses.

As in real estate...location, location, location. Where are the feeder tracks? In short, there are none. Not with the kind of caliber needed to run at SA.

They are kind of an island unto themselves, which has always been a problem out there...and it's now exacerbated by the smaller foal crops of recent years.

[Andy Asaro]

I was at Pomona fairgrounds for a gymnastics meet for my daughter and walked over to (and snuck into) the old grandstand. If it (and the track) needed a lot of work back before HOL closed in 2013, it would need double now.

Right everything needs to be built from scratch. Maybe sell the land at GG and put some money into Pomona with a long term lease.

[elhelmete]

Santa Anita has forever had a problem with attracting a huge amount of horses.

As in real estate...location, location, location. Where are the feeder tracks? In short, there are none. Not with the kind of caliber needed to run at SA.

They are kind of an island unto themselves, which has always been a problem out there...and it's now exacerbated by the smaller foal crops of recent years.

Yup.

So let's run an example.

You have a horse at the $30K claiming level. Doing OK. Now he starts to decline as time goes on and you can't easily ship somewhere the horse is competitive and Santa Anita isn't carding many cheap races. So the horse sits. And sits. And when it is time to race are you happier to see him as one of five or one of twelve (as an owner)? I know I have a different answer to that question if my horse is running once every six weeks or twice a month.

[Andy Asaro]

Hollywood Park staying open was the best possible outcome for California Racing but short of that Pomona is the ONLY viable option if they believe there is a future in California. I'm sure the State would love to get money from a long term lease on land that generated very little outside the fair IMO.

[dilanesp]

I compare takeout rates to the principle of compounding interest.

The numbers are real...compounding interest is real. But if you start too late (like saving for retirement when you're already 53) you can't really make it work for you. Dropping takeout now might have a good effect but IMHO we don't have enough time to wait for the math to work...at least not without committing to additional measures.

Takeout is simply a really complicated issue. I think horseplayers think in terms of "lower takeout = more handle", which is true as far as it goes, but isn't really the point.

You have to consider such things as (1) whether the bump in handle will be enough to make up for the lower percentage (this is what anyone familiar with taxation policy would recognize as "the Laffer curve" problem and what anyone familiar with economics would recognize as "elasticity"); (2) whether there are regulatory or stakeholder roadblocks to lower takeout (i.e., the CHRB and the HBPA); (3) whether there are benefits to price discrimination (there's already some of this-- the players' pick 5 and the differences between exotic takeouts and WPS takeout, but there's a lot more of this that could be done).

I mean, if I were designing it from scratch, takeout would probably be lower overall, but I'd also charge takeout surcharges on big races (you think anyone's going to hold off betting the Derby or the Breeders' Cup due to high takeout?), I'd have more low takeout unique bets like the player's pick 5 so that people who care will bet them and people who don't care will continue to play other wagers with higher takeout, and I'd charge higher takeout in races with full fields and give big breaks on short fields (the way poker rooms drop the rake when the game is shorthanded).

It's definitely not as simple as just lowering it across the board.

[Andy Asaro]

Takeout is simply a really complicated issue. I think horseplayers think in terms of "lower takeout = more handle", which is true as far as it goes, but isn't really the point.

You have to consider such things as (1) whether the bump in handle will be enough to make up for the lower percentage (this is what anyone familiar with taxation policy would recognize as "the Laffer curve" problem and what anyone familiar with economics would recognize as "elasticity"); (2) whether there are regulatory or stakeholder roadblocks to lower takeout (i.e., the CHRB and the HBPA); (3) whether there are benefits to price discrimination (there's already some of this-- the players' pick 5 and the differences between exotic takeouts and WPS takeout, but there's a lot more of this that could be done).

I mean, if I were designing it from scratch, takeout would probably be lower overall, but I'd also charge takeout surcharges on big races (you think anyone's going to hold off betting the Derby or the Breeders' Cup due to high takeout?), I'd have more low takeout unique bets like the player's pick 5 so that people who care will bet them and people who don't care will continue to play other wagers with higher takeout, and I'd charge higher takeout in races with full fields and give big breaks on short fields (the way poker rooms drop the rake when the game is shorthanded).

It's definitely not as simple as just lowering it across the board.

Nobody has ever suggested that takeout be lowered across the board. You start by paying to the penny on WPS breakage and reduce exacta take to 16%(at 16% handle would have to go up about 30%) but you have to remember that at 16% a lot of people who stopped betting on Ca racing would come back so other wagers would be lifted as well. You do something, you monitor the trend, and you innovate and adjust when necessary. If 16% proves not to be optimal you raise it and do something else.

[dilanesp]

Hollywood Park staying open was the best possible outcome for California Racing but short of that Pomona is the ONLY viable option if they believe there is a future in California. I'm sure the State would love to get money from a long term lease on land that generated very little outside the fair IMO.

Hollywood Park staying open? How much money did you expect Bay Meadows (or Churchill before it) to lose keeping the place open?

Hollywood was not going to stay open. Indeed, I read some analyses DONE IN THE LATE 1980's (i.e., long before the attendance declines) that indicated that either Santa Anita or Hollywood was going to have to close (interestingly, it actually didn't matter that much which one did, just that one of them had to). The economics of this were that cut and dried even then. It obviously only got worse after the horse shortage (and after RD Hubbard, the last person who actually knew how to run Hollywood Park, sold it).

You can't have a business model that depends on track owners losing tons of money for indefinite amounts of time. And one of the big problems with your proposal about Fairplex is "exactly how is Fairplex supposed to cover the millions of dollars of improvements and make a profit if they do this?".

[Andy Asaro]

Hollywood Park staying open? How much money did you expect Bay Meadows (or Churchill before it) to lose keeping the place open?

Hollywood was not going to stay open. Indeed, I read some analyses DONE IN THE LATE 1980's (i.e., long before the attendance declines) that indicated that either Santa Anita or Hollywood was going to have to close (interestingly, it actually didn't matter that much which one did, just that one of them had to). The economics of this were that cut and dried even then. It obviously only got worse after the horse shortage (and after RD Hubbard, the last person who actually knew how to run Hollywood Park, sold it).

You can't have a business model that depends on track owners losing tons of money for indefinite amounts of time. And one of the big problems with your proposal about Fairplex is "exactly how is Fairplex supposed to cover the millions of dollars of improvements and make a profit if they do this?".
Right Hollywood Park was never going to stay open under any circumstances so why did they wait till the last minute to find an alternative and end up at a track with no turf course?

[elhelmete]

Right Hollywood Park was never going to stay open under any circumstances so why did they wait till the last minute to find an alternative and end up at a track with no turf course?

Waiting till the last minute is a specialty of horseracing jurisdictional bodies.

[Andy Asaro]

Waiting till the last minute is a specialty of horseracing jurisdictional bodies.

Most of the fault lies with Mike Pegram and the TOC.

[dilanesp]

Waiting till the last minute is a specialty of horseracing jurisdictional bodies.

+1

Also, you have to remember exactly how this went down. Hollywood kept on getting stays of execution. It was originally announced as closing 3 or 4 years before it actually did. And this is exactly the sort of thing that can cause people to be complacent, especially since the options available (whether doing what they ultimately did or doing something at Fairplex) cost money.

[cj]

Santa Anita has forever had a problem with attracting a huge amount of horses.

As in real estate...location, location, location. Where are the feeder tracks? In short, there are none. Not with the kind of caliber needed to run at SA.

They are kind of an island unto themselves, which has always been a problem out there...and it's now exacerbated by the smaller foal crops of recent years.

It is also the cost of racing a horse there.

[elhelmete]

Call me stupid. No really...call me stupid.

What would it take to get an additional, say, 5,000 foals bred and brought up to when they can be sold as yearlings? Or, if not sold, placed with trainers who would be paid (subsidized) to get them to their first race as a 2yo? (Of course I know not all 5,000 would make it...)

[VigorsTheGrey]

Probability that Santa Anita will become the next Hollywood Park and close within 2 years...? 50-50. Within 5 years: 100%

Agree or disagree...?

[elhelmete]

It is also the cost of racing a horse there.

$100 day fee plus-plus-plus-plus.

Let's say my trainer maybe will run every 4 to 6 weeks.

Therefore I have *maybe* 8-10 days to earn a purse within a year.

[dilanesp]

Probability that Santa Anita will become the next Hollywood Park and close within 2 years...? 50-50. Within 5 years: 100%

Agree or disagree...?

Disagree

[Andy Asaro]

$100 day fee plus-plus-plus-plus.

Let's say my trainer maybe will run every 4 to 6 weeks.

Therefore I have *maybe* 8-10 days to earn a purse within a year.

When they hiked the take and got all that Customer Subsidized purse welfare they kept the purse structure top heavy so 85% of the money went to the 10% who win all the races. Win should have been dropped to 55% and significant participation bonuses on a sliding scale should have been paid. But Guys like Pegram and the TOC don't represent all owners they represent the ones in their club. That's why the biggest outfits have gotten bigger since the take hike and some of the small outfits cant' buy feed for the horses.

[cj]

Disagree

Agree. Santa Anita isn't going anywhere any time soon.

[Rex Phinney]

Probability that Santa Anita will become the next Hollywood Park and close within 2 years...? 50-50. Within 5 years: 100%

Agree or disagree...?

Disagree

[Andy Asaro]

Other than Ritvo going there there are zero signs that they(Stonach Group) want to be in business at Santa Anita in 5 years. When they bought it they expected slots or instant racing would be approved one day.

[whodoyoulike]

... I'd be all in favor of a 3 day raceweek. Boost the purses as high as you can get them and see if you can't get the field size growing.

Sounds like you're a trainer or an owner.

[SuperPickle]

Agree. Santa Anita isn't going anywhere any time soon.

CJ while I agree with you pending a definition of "anytime soon" I think your confidence is too high. The reality is when Frank dies (he's 84) no one knows what happens.

The group think is he's a man who's made racing a big part of his life's work his heirs would not disassemble that over night. However we've all seen this happen in other instances so while I think we have confidence in Belinda and his estate I wouldn't let it cross over to cockiness.

I'll sum it up this way. I think Belinda wants to keep racing. However when there's a billion dollars on the table and people sit down at it unforeseen things tend to happen.

[cj]

CJ while I agree with you pending a definition of "anytime soon" I think your confidence is too high. The reality is when Frank dies (he's 84) no one knows what happens.

The group think is he's a man who's made racing a big part of his life's work his heirs would not disassemble that over night. However we've all seen this happen in other instances so while I think we have confidence in Belinda and his estate I wouldn't let it cross over to cockiness.

I'll sum it up this way. I think Belinda wants to keep racing. However when there's a billion dollars on the table and people sit down at it unforeseen things tend to happen.

But I think Frank is going to live to be 158, so there is that.

https://energy-drink-magazin.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Franks-Energy-und-Sports-Drink-Dose.jpg

[Rex Phinney]

Other than Ritvo going there there are zero signs that they(Stonach Group) want to be in business at Santa Anita in 5 years. When they bought it they expected slots or instant racing would be approved one day.

What are you talking about?

Did you miss the millions they spent on redoing the upper clubhouse sections into giant suites?

Did you miss the time they redid the dirt track over and over again trying to get it right?

Renovated every box seat in the place?

Renovated the entire Clubhouse/ box seat area betting and concessions?

They have sunk some serious money into this place in the last 3-5 years. Get a grip.

[Andy Asaro]

WTF are you talking about?

Did you miss the millions they spent on redoing the upper clubhouse sections into giant suites?

Did you miss the time they redid the dirt track over and over again trying to get it right?

Renovated every box seat in the place?

Renovated the entire Clubhouse/ box seat area betting and concessions?

They have sunk some serious money into this place in the last 3-5 years. Get a grip.

Are you sure they're happy with the return on attracting whales to Santa Anita? They look at it as a failure that cost a ton of money. Chandelier Room shut down most days. That was all Brackpools folly and that's why he's not running things anymore (it appears)

And guess what? It's still a ghost town.

[Rex Phinney]

Are you sure they're happy with the return on attracting whales to Santa Anita? They look at it as a failure that cost a ton of money. Chandelier Room shut down most days. That was all Brackpools folly and that's why he's not running things anymore (it appears)

And guess what? It's still a ghost town.

That's way different than what you said though. You said they have no interest in doing business there. And their prior efforts clearly show otherwise.

If you want to say they aren't drawing the crowds they'd like that's fine, but in no way do I think Stronach is operating Santa Anita like he wants to not do business there and to say so is crazy.

[elhelmete]

Are you sure they're happy with the return on attracting whales to Santa Anita? They look at it as a failure that cost a ton of money. Chandelier Room shut down most days. That was all Brackpools folly and that's why he's not running things anymore (it appears).

Boy they sure did F up the Chandelier Room, and demoting Frankie the bartender to the clubhouse was criminal.

[Andy Asaro]

Boy they sure did F up the Chandelier Room, and demoting Frankie the bartender to the clubhouse was criminal.

Since the takeout hike in 2011 they've laid off or reduced hours of well over 100 employees.

[Rex Phinney]

Since the takeout hike in 2011 they've laid off or reduced hours of well over 100 employees.

In the last 14 years handle nationwide is down something like 33%.

Hoping you can link this to the California takeout bump for us somehow, thanks.

[Andy Asaro]

In the last 14 years handle nationwide is down something like 33%.

Hoping you can link this to the California takeout bump for us somehow, thanks.

Yes, you're right. I'm a crazy idiot. I'm the dummy that helped get the 14% takeout P5 in and worked with H.P. to market it that has been such a failure.

[anotherCAfan]

Not enough Owners for the last 20 years, and that killed the breeding industry. The State has to find a way to allow owners to break even with some tax advantages or the Industry is dead. No owners+ no Breeders= no races=betters go to the Indian Casinos and that= NO TAX DOLLARS to the STATE. The Indians ride for free.
The special treatment shown to them is disgusting, and I'm glad someone else brought it up.

As for Santa Anita, it provides a west coast Breeders Cup host site (prime time TV on the east boast), and a west coast track for Stronach events (Pegasus? Preakness? time will tell).


I sure as heck hope Santa Anita is not closing anytime soon. This thread is scaring and depressing me simultaneously. :(

[Rex Phinney]

Yes, you're right. I'm a crazy idiot. I'm the dummy that helped get the 14% takeout P5 in and worked with H.P. to market it that has been such a failure.

When your action at the windows drops 33% in 14 years (nationwide, not just high takeout markets) you're in deep crap no matter what.

No level of change in the takeout (up or down) is correcting that.

When you go off and associate industry layoffs, cuts and everything else solely to the takeout you look like a crazy idiot. Don't do that, you will get farther.

[Andy Asaro]

When your action at the windows drops 33% in 14 years (nationwide, not just high takeout markets) you're in deep crap no matter what.

No level of change in the takeout (up or down) is correcting that.

When you go off and associate industry layoffs, cuts and everything else solely to the takeout you look like a crazy idiot. Don't do that, you will get farther.

I appreciate the advice but I'm just giving my informed opinion. Fine to disagree, getting personal not so much.

[Rex Phinney]

I appreciate the advice but I'm just giving my informed opinion. Fine to disagree, getting personal not so much.

When did I make it personal? You mentioned being a crazy idiot, not me. Hence, I reused that term on purpose.

I don't need to call you names on the internet.

[Andy Asaro]

That's way different than what you said though. You said they have no interest in doing business there. And their prior efforts clearly show otherwise.

If you want to say they aren't drawing the crowds they'd like that's fine, but in no way do I think Stronach is operating Santa Anita like he wants to not do business there and to say so is crazy.

Best,

A

[Andy Asaro]

What are you talking about?

Did you miss the millions they spent on redoing the upper clubhouse sections into giant suites?

Did you miss the time they redid the dirt track over and over again trying to get it right?

Renovated every box seat in the place?

Renovated the entire Clubhouse/ box seat area betting and concessions?

They have sunk some serious money into this place in the last 3-5 years. Get a grip.

Best,

A

[Rex Phinney]

Jesus, you taking your ball and going home now too.

Don't get upset because you get treated like everyone else on this message board. You ought to take pride in that and not whine about it.

[Andy Asaro]

Jesus, you taking your ball and going home now too.

Don't get upset because you get treated like everyone else on this message board. You ought to take pride in that and not whine about it.

Not going anywhere and not whining. You disputed what I wrote and I highlighted it for you.

This pissing contest is wasting everyones time and wrecking the thread. Give your opinion, offer your solution, and we can discuss or not.

[delsully]

I sure as heck hope Santa Anita is not closing anytime soon. This thread is scaring and depressing me simultaneously. :(

The field size and product at SA is scaring and depressing me simultaneously.

[Rex Phinney]

Not going anywhere and not whining. You disputed what I wrote and I highlighted it for you.

This pissing contest is wasting everyones time and wrecking the thread. Give your opinion, offer your solution, and we can discuss or not.

I think a takeout reduction on certain bets is a good idea. Surely you know all about the people who can be brought back because they watch the takeout rates religiously. I don't have access to those types.

I do know that for casual fans this is not even a concern, it isn't keeping them from going to the races or making bets.

So get some bets that might bring back some of the more die hard players but also let the tracks keep a higher % of the more basic bets to profit a little more on those who are not paying attention anyway. I also think the idea of different takeouts on different days is a terrific idea.

Outside of that I buy into the theory that less racing is better at this point. We see what Belmont did with Belmont day, we see the attention the Pegasus got, we see the numbers the Derby and Breeders Cup pull every year. For the future of the sport we need more days like this to get the attention back. Better quality racing on weekends for just about anywhere except Saratoga and Del Mar, let them run as many days as they please.

The Breeding needs to be addressed as well. I support an age minimum on breeding, and I support a foal limit per season as well. These are things that can keep our stars running longer.

[Andy Asaro]

I think a takeout reduction on certain bets is a good idea. Surely you know all about the people who can be brought back because they watch the takeout rates religiously. I don't have access to those types.

I do know that for casual fans this is not even a concern, it isn't keeping them from going to the races or making bets.

So get some bets that might bring back some of the more die hard players but also let the tracks keep a higher % of the more basic bets to profit a little more on those who are not paying attention anyway. I also think the idea of different takeouts on different days is a terrific idea.

Outside of that I buy into the theory that less racing is better at this point. We see what Belmont did with Belmont day, we see the attention the Pegasus got, we see the numbers the Derby and Breeders Cup pull every year. For the future of the sport we need more days like this to get the attention back. Better quality racing on weekends for just about anywhere except Saratoga and Del Mar, let them run as many days as they please.

The Breeding needs to be addressed as well. I support an age minimum on breeding, and I support a foal limit per season as well. These are things that can keep our stars running longer.

Casual Fans may not know about takeout but they do know that they almost always go home broke and most fail to make it through the learning curve. I got a commitment from the Jockey Club (Gagliano) and the NTRA (Waldrop) that if Ca. asked they would help support it as a test jurisdiction as a gambling game of skill. Just as important is an effort to direct people who are new to the game to bet WPS and Exactas. I would tell them to pick 3 horses and do a $2 exacta box and bet the longest shot to WPS. Then bring the form home and analyze who won and why. Cashing tickets is the only way to get people to make it through the learning curve. If they watch TVG and play the "experts" tickets they will quickly learn that they almost never cash a ticket.

[Andy Asaro]

I forgot the part about the free publicity the changes to the exacta takeout, the breakage (paying to the penny), and the education of new players would bring as a test jurisdiction. Just about every horse racing news outlet would be monitoring the progress. Message boards would be discussing the merits as well. That's hundreds of thousands of $$ of free publicity to the major jurisdiction that does it first.

[Rex Phinney]

This is where this conversation always goes. "Lower takeout fixes everything"

Nothing about whether we should race more or less.

Nothing about the noose that breeding is putting on the sport.

No comment on handle being down 33% in 14 years.

Just "lower. takeout fixes everything"

This is why i can't ever take that argument seriously. Every one of you guys has the same thing to say.

[Andy Asaro]

This is where this conversation always goes. "Lower takeout fixes everything"

Nothing about whether we should race more or less.

Nothing about the noose that breeding is putting on the sport.

No comment on handle being down 33% in 14 years.

Just "lower. takeout fixes everything"

This is why i can't ever take that argument seriously. Every one of you guys has the same thing to say.

Nobody ever said lower takeout fixes everything. You seem to want to ignore the marketing plan and the selling the gambling game of skill part along with the program to get newbies to bet WPS and exactas when they start.

I put most of it in this article that I have posted before. Nowhere do I write that lower takeout solves everything.

https://www.paulickreport.com/horseplayers-category/asaro-ground-zero-in-fight-for-future-of-horse-racing/

[MonmouthParkJoe]

Breakage has burned my ass for years. Why not use the breakage to seed a pool on a monthly basis? Hell, its the bettors money anyway right?

Or, use it to incentivize horses to start more? Have some sort of bonus using the breakage for horses that start X amount of times? Yes, the foal crop and field size has dropped, but so has the number of times a horse starts per year. And its not just at the stakes level, its all levels.

[Andy Asaro]

Breakage has burned my ass for years. Why not use the breakage to seed a pool on a monthly basis? Hell, its the bettors money anyway right?

Or, use it to incentivize horses to start more? Have some sort of bonus using the breakage for horses that start X amount of times? Yes, the foal crop and field size has dropped, but so has the number of times a horse starts per year. And its not just at the stakes level, its all levels.

Some of the revenue from breakage goes to Backstretch Workers. What they don't understand is if they payed to the penny the revenue from breakage would become revenue from takeout (Assumes an increase in handle). And on top of that I've suggested that since there are worthy causes we donate to why not have self serve machines with an option to donate the odd 90 cents or if you win and want to why not $20? And same goes for ADW's. Permanently disabled jockeys, backstretch workers, and horse aftercare. Makes too much sense I guess.

[elhelmete]

Casual Fans may not know about takeout but they do know that they almost always go home broke and most fail to make it through the learning curve. I got a commitment from the Jockey Club (Gagliano) and the NTRA (Waldrop) that if Ca. asked they would help support it as a test jurisdiction as a gambling game of skill. Just as important is an effort to direct people who are new to the game to bet WPS and Exactas. I would tell them to pick 3 horses and do a $2 exacta box and bet the longest shot to WPS. Then bring the form home and analyze who won and why. Cashing tickets is the only way to get people to make it through the learning curve. If they watch TVG and play the "experts" tickets they will quickly learn that they almost never cash a ticket.

I'm genuinely curious about this, as I take a ton of people (mostly newbies) to SA through my work and social circles. I'm trying to really wrap my head around how to 'educate' and what it means to convince someone that horseplaying is a game of skill (not being sure what they think it currently is...??).

When I go with a group (I've probably brought ten groups there of 20-50 people) the track has always assigned us a 'betting docent' or two to assist people in using the SAMs and how to bet in general. They've been great. I like to chime in when I can and suggest very simple bets like you do here, almost always using favorites so they cash a ticket. The flip side of that is the genuine lack of excitement when they bet a $1 exacta box with 3 horses for $6 and they cash for $7.10. I feel like a jerk pointing them to horses that either lose, or pay off so poorly it's a joke. They want longshots...but I want them to cash tickets so they feel the possibilities...

One other strategy I've had luck with is grabbing 3-4 of my newbie friends and throwing in with them on a show parlay. This adds a group aspect to gambling and if the initial stake is $5 each it's totally reasonable.

I don't think it's easy to toss a form and a program to a newbie and point to an archaic tote board and try to teach a lifetime of handicapping in 15 minutes. I think you have to boil it down to some sort of a 15 minute prep course they can execute immediately. I would never expect the vast majority of newbies to do homework after a day of losing to 3-5 favorites in 5 horse fields. These gambling newbies think a craps table is intimidating...the DRF PPs are really really a put-off to the newbies. I've seen it 100 times.

[whodoyoulike]

:1: I'm genuinely curious about this, as I take a ton of people (mostly newbies) to SA through my work and social circles. I'm trying to really wrap my head around how to 'educate' and what it means to convince someone that horseplaying is a game of skill (not being sure what they think it currently is...??).

:2: When I go with a group (I've probably brought ten groups there of 20-50 people) the track has always assigned us a 'betting docent' or two to assist people in using the SAMs and how to bet in general. They've been great. I like to chime in when I can and suggest very simple bets like you do here, almost always using favorites so they cash a ticket. The flip side of that is the genuine lack of excitement when they bet a $1 exacta box with 3 horses for $6 and they cash for $7.10. I feel like a jerk pointing them to horses that either lose, or pay off so poorly it's a joke. They want longshots...but I want them to cash tickets so they feel the possibilities...

:3: One other strategy I've had luck with is grabbing 3-4 of my newbie friends and throwing in with them on a show parlay. This adds a group aspect to gambling and if the initial stake is $5 each it's totally reasonable.

:4: I don't think it's easy to toss a form and a program to a newbie and point to an archaic tote board and try to teach a lifetime of handicapping in 15 minutes. I think you have to boil it down to some sort of a 15 minute prep course they can execute immediately. I would never expect the vast majority of newbies to do homework after a day of losing to 3-5 favorites in 5 horse fields. These gambling newbies think a craps table is intimidating...the DRF PPs are really really a put-off to the newbies. I've seen it 100 times.

:1: I don't have an answer for you. But, do you remember what brought you back the second time?

I really enjoyed my first adult experience. Afterwards, I purchased my first handicapping book and pretty much read it within 2 weeks. And, I read it several times afterwards the first year. It was Ainsle's which was lucky for me because I had no idea what was available at the time.

:2: You really can't expect "newbies" who have no idea what to do to immediately get it.

:3: This is good as long as you're not the one making the selections, go in that you know more than them. I think if you ask them to explain why they are making their selections will reinforce the handicapping aspects. Hopefully, you'll get some response other than the color of the silks etc., then you should step in. Otherwise, let them make their selections. As you said it's only $5 apiece.

:5: Again, before going suggest they read a handicapping book and remind them that this is gambling and unless they have a lot of discretionary income long shots are long shots for a reason.

[Andy Asaro]

I'm genuinely curious about this, as I take a ton of people (mostly newbies) to SA through my work and social circles. I'm trying to really wrap my head around how to 'educate' and what it means to convince someone that horseplaying is a game of skill (not being sure what they think it currently is...??).

When I go with a group (I've probably brought ten groups there of 20-50 people) the track has always assigned us a 'betting docent' or two to assist people in using the SAMs and how to bet in general. They've been great. I like to chime in when I can and suggest very simple bets like you do here, almost always using favorites so they cash a ticket. The flip side of that is the genuine lack of excitement when they bet a $1 exacta box with 3 horses for $6 and they cash for $7.10. I feel like a jerk pointing them to horses that either lose, or pay off so poorly it's a joke. They want longshots...but I want them to cash tickets so they feel the possibilities...

One other strategy I've had luck with is grabbing 3-4 of my newbie friends and throwing in with them on a show parlay. This adds a group aspect to gambling and if the initial stake is $5 each it's totally reasonable.

I don't think it's easy to toss a form and a program to a newbie and point to an archaic tote board and try to teach a lifetime of handicapping in 15 minutes. I think you have to boil it down to some sort of a 15 minute prep course they can execute immediately. I would never expect the vast majority of newbies to do homework after a day of losing to 3-5 favorites in 5 horse fields. These gambling newbies think a craps table is intimidating...the DRF PPs are really really a put-off to the newbies. I've seen it 100 times.

Right, they're not going to understand the form for a while but it's important to bring home after the races to study the winning profile. The $2 WPS and the $1 three horse exacta box let them cash tickets. As time goes by they will learn that it's bad to bet the money to show on a low priced horse. As time goes by they're learn more and more. The full experience is to handicap and then win. And show parlays are great IMO. Sounds like you do a great job with the people you bring there.

[reckless]

A lot of excellent thoughts and opinions in this thread. Thanks to all of you.

I have a thought I'd like to share. Now, while it might seem this comes from out of left field could Tim Ritvo's well publicized visit to Santa Anita also be a part of a long range plan to recruit some high profile racing stables to relocate East, where they could race much of the summer at Maryland and the winters at Gulfstream??

As some may know, there are whispers and rumors that Stronach is considering taking over Monmouth, Philadelphia Park and Delaware eventually to create a single circuit along the Mid-Atlantic. He'll need plenty of horse flesh to make it work.

[Andy Asaro]

A lot of excellent thoughts and opinions in this thread. Thanks to all of you.

I have a thought I'd like to share. Now, while it might seem this comes from out of left field could Tim Ritvo's well publicized visit to Santa Anita also be a part of a long range plan to recruit some high profile racing stables to relocate East, where they could race much of the summer at Maryland and the winters at Gulfstream??

As some may know, there are whispers and rumors that Stronach is considering taking over Monmouth, Philadelphia Park and Delaware eventually to create a single circuit along the Mid-Atlantic. He'll need plenty of horse flesh to make it work.

Tim has no idea what he's in for dealing with just the TOC. I certainly hope he gets on the right track and convinces Belinda to take some of the posted suggestions.

[GMB@BP]

Santa Anita has forever had a problem with attracting a huge amount of horses.

As in real estate...location, location, location. Where are the feeder tracks? In short, there are none. Not with the kind of caliber needed to run at SA.

They are kind of an island unto themselves, which has always been a problem out there...and it's now exacerbated by the smaller foal crops of recent years.

glad i am not the only one who sees this. they are at a disadvantage from the pool they can draw from. Everyones field size is down, just is worse in socal. its the new norm.

[affirmedny]

Yes, exactly.

Gotta engage the TOC too, good luck. Didn't Lou Raffetto last 10 minutes here? And he's a terrific exec as well.

It's an awesome facility, and customer service really is top notch. Lots of improvements over the past 5 years to the physical plant.

Raffetto worked for the TOC not the track is how I recall it.

[Hambletonian]

With purses as high as they are in the slots-infused tracks...there is no reason for the average horses to knock heads with those from the bigger outfits. California has always been an island unto itself, with few if any shippers available, so the problem is due to the local horse population.

The only real solution is to cut back racing days and combine conditions in order to get fuller fields. Right now, it is great if you are an owner (less competition), but the betting product sucks and they are going to lose ground in the percentage of ADW handle they rake in.

Slots racing has killed the premier tracks...plain and simple. Even those that have slots fueled purses. The talented horses are now well dispersed.

[airford1]

If you could make MONEY by racing horses there wouldn't be a problem.

[dilanesp]

If you could make MONEY by racing horses there wouldn't be a problem.

Owning thoroughbreds has always been a sucker's bet.

[SandyW]

With purses as high as they are in the slots-infused tracks...there is no reason for the average horses to knock heads with those from the bigger outfits. California has always been an island unto itself, with few if any shippers available, so the problem is due to the local horse population.

The only real solution is to cut back racing days and combine conditions in order to get fuller fields. Right now, it is great if you are an owner (less competition), but the betting product sucks and they are going to lose ground in the percentage of ADW handle they rake in.

Slots racing has killed the premier tracks...plain and simple. Even those that have slots fueled purses. The talented horses are now well dispersed.

Cut back racing days, California has already done that. They have to find more horses.

[GMB@BP]

With purses as high as they are in the slots-infused tracks...there is no reason for the average horses to knock heads with those from the bigger outfits. California has always been an island unto itself, with few if any shippers available, so the problem is due to the local horse population.

The only real solution is to cut back racing days and combine conditions in order to get fuller fields. Right now, it is great if you are an owner (less competition), but the betting product sucks and they are going to lose ground in the percentage of ADW handle they rake in.

Slots racing has killed the premier tracks...plain and simple. Even those that have slots fueled purses. The talented horses are now well dispersed.

they only run between 32-40 races per week.

If you cut back anymore than you are going to see a real max exodus of horses out of there.

Its akin to saying, need more money just raise the taxes (or takeout if you will), there has to be a balance or everything collapses.

[dilanesp]

they only run between 32-40 races per week.

If you cut back anymore than you are going to see a real max exodus of horses out of there.

Its akin to saying, need more money just raise the taxes (or takeout if you will), there has to be a balance or everything collapses.

This is why we have to go to one circuit rather than two. That's the solution, but the horsemen hate it.

[VigorsTheGrey]

What is a circuit...? Doesn't California have (One) already with SA and GG being in the same circuit...? They ship back and forth all the time....:confused: How do the Fairs fit in...? Are they in a different "Circuit"..?

[cj]

What is a circuit...? Doesn't California have (One) already with SA and GG being in the same circuit...? They ship back and forth all the time....:confused: How do the Fairs fit in...? Are they in a different "Circuit"..?

They don't really ship that much, and even then it just cannibalizes the races at the other track.

[elhelmete]

What is a circuit...? Doesn't California have (One) already with SA and GG being in the same circuit...? They ship back and forth all the time....:confused: How do the Fairs fit in...? Are they in a different "Circuit"..?

Separate circuits.

[GMB@BP]

They don't really ship that much, and even then it just cannibalizes the races at the other track.

I would saying shipping between these two circuits happens even less then it used too with the deletion of most of the mid level claiming races.

[theiman]

Can you keep us updated on this?

I'm uncertain if my racing channel is FSW2 but I've noticed mine hasn't shown horse racing in some time. I've been relying on my ADW but they've made changes a couple months ago and watching the races has changed or I just haven't figured it out yet. I emailed my ADW and their reply wasn't very helpful.

Thanks.

I have not received any response to my e-mail sent last weekend, to FSW or Prime Ticket. I sent a follow up e-mail on Wednesday, and do not expect a response, either. I was polite in my e-mail(s).

I did see a press release, on the drf site, that Prime Ticket is picking up a NYRA produced show, starting sometime during the Belmont meet and continuing on during Saratoga. It is supposed to be a 2.5 hour show. My guess the NYRA deal is a better deal $$ for both sides. It mentioned that both Prime Ticket and Fox Sports San Diego were going to be part of the deal.

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/BradFree1/status/868131681328283649