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View Full Version : Better Derby Winner: Nyquist or Always Dreaming


PowerUpPaynter
05-12-2017, 08:10 AM
I know Nyquist was never the same after running, im pretty sure, the fastest opening 1/4 in Preakness history but at this same point in their career who do you think it the better horse?

And on a side note although not part of the poll question who do you think is better competition Exaggerator or Classic Empire?

HalvOnHorseracing
05-12-2017, 10:21 AM
I know Nyquist was never the same after running, im pretty sure, the fastest opening 1/4 in Preakness history but at this same point in their career who do you think it the better horse?

And on a side note although not part of the poll question who do you think is better competition Exaggerator or Classic Empire?

The day after the Derby Nyquist had won the biggest race for two year olds and the biggest race for three year olds, so just looking at the time after the Derby but before the Preakness it is hard to argue Nyquist was not ahead of Always Dreaming.

Exaggerator certainly showed he was a mudlark. At this point I have more reason to believe Classic Empire will have an impact on the championship races than Exaggerator did. The Derby chart documents the trouble Classic Empire had.

CLASSIC EMPIRE bobbled soon after the break then was hammered off stride between rivals when forced down, regrouped to rate off the inside, picked up steam leaving the far turn, swung five wide for the drive, had his run briefly interrupted when bumped and carried out mid stretch, regrouped and churned on.

At this point I'm inclined to give Classic Empire a big chance in the Preakness.

Robert Fischer
05-12-2017, 01:50 PM
Always Dreaming certainly has potential to be better than Nyquist. He'll have to determine that. Can he relax around legitimate pace rivals?
Exaggerator is wayyyy better than Classic Empire.

Sinner369
05-12-2017, 02:08 PM
For me it is SILLY to compare at this point in time.............wait until the triple crown race are over.

HalvOnHorseracing
05-12-2017, 04:10 PM
Always Dreaming certainly has potential to be better than Nyquist. He'll have to determine that. Can he relax around legitimate pace rivals?
Exaggerator is wayyyy better than Classic Empire.

Every horse has potential, right up until they lose. And the only way we'll know is when they run the race.

That's a pretty bold statement without having the benefit of hindsight on Classic Empire. Was Exaggerator better than CE the day after the Derby? Because he wasn't 2YO of the year, and he won exactly one Grade 1 prep race, same as CE, and was 2nd in the Derby to CE's extremely troubled 4th. And subsequent to the Derby, he won two races, both in the mud, when Nyquist set a killing pace. Otherwise he was 11th in the Belmont, 11th in the Travers, 7th in the Pennsylvania Derby. The facts are at best ambiguous regarding Exaggerator's place as a top racehorse, but wayyyy better than CE? Unless you have the definitive Magic 8 Ball, that's just horseplayer bluster.

señorclipclop
05-12-2017, 10:47 PM
Always Dreaming certainly has potential to be better than Nyquist. He'll have to determine that. Can he relax around legitimate pace rivals?
Exaggerator is wayyyy better than Classic Empire.

Um, no.

Robert Fischer
05-13-2017, 12:59 AM
I could tell you that Exaggerator's San Vicente was better than anything Classic Empire has ever done, but you would think I'm even crazier.

best to just leave it at horseplayer bluster.

rsetup
05-13-2017, 01:44 AM
I'm tired of reading about all the pseudo trouble that CE supposedly gets into. This trouble has resulted in CE NOT HAVING TO RUN AT KEY POINTS of his last two races. Factor in his track aided win in the BC and, clearly, it's time for this horse to show us what it can do. No reason he shouldn't be able to break well and have a forwardly placed trip along with AD. No more excuses.

Viruss
05-13-2017, 03:06 AM
Come on now.Going into his next race. You can't over look this horses effort, considering the running style, track conditions and troubled trip.


Earl J

PowerUpPaynter
05-13-2017, 09:49 AM
As someone who is not a fan of Always Dreaming, i must say. The reason why he is a better horse for the Triple Crown races than Classic Empire is because he breaks out of the gate fantastically and creates his own great trips. I think he will continue to do that. Just like horses that always have trip trouble its usually a product of the horse.

burnsy
05-13-2017, 11:55 AM
For me it is SILLY to compare at this point in time.............wait until the triple crown race are over.

Totally agree. Lets see how things play out first. Just making the next race is an accomplishment in itself. As for Classic Empire, horses that have a habit of getting in trouble are not good to bet at a short price. Plus, he got banged up pretty good in the Derby, not a good sign going forward. If he comes up second choice in the Preakness you have to look past him IMO. He has a fair shot but I don't know if he turns the tide on Always Dreaming at that track.

Always Dreaming has the potential to be a better horse than Nyquist. He just keeps getting better, Nyquist kind of hit a ceiling early in the season. Always Dreaming is stringing together races at the right time. That's why these trainers are holding these horses back. You can toss the 2 yo season these days.

señorclipclop
05-13-2017, 12:36 PM
As someone who is not a fan of Always Dreaming, i must say. The reason why he is a better horse for the Triple Crown races than Classic Empire is because he breaks out of the gate fantastically and creates his own great trips. I think he will continue to do that. Just like horses that always have trip trouble its usually a product of the horse.

You have to wonder how much worse his break is because of Leparoux. I think he put CE in more trouble than he would have had with most other competent jockeys. He Union Rags-ed him.

arw629
05-15-2017, 04:03 PM
Nyquist had accomplished way more than Always Dreaming to this point. How is this even debatable?

n.c
05-16-2017, 12:16 AM
since AD at Pletcher barn, he has won every race going away from the field.
Dominick Schettino - AD had good speed numbers with Shettino, who is a so so trainer - horse is talented.

classhandicapper
05-16-2017, 04:29 PM
They are similar at this point, but Nyquist had a lot more races under his belt at this stage so Always Dreaming has a greater probability of moving forward faster.

Actor
05-18-2017, 05:06 PM
There's a story of two men who asked their mother which was the better violinist, to which the woman replied "Heifetz."

Thomas Roulston
05-19-2017, 04:22 PM
Curiously, while both horses have a DI above 4.00, both also peak in the Intermediate group (Nyquist: DP = 1-2-1-0-0, DI = 7.00, Always Dreaming: DP = 3-5-4-0-0, DI = 5.00), so their distance pedigrees are not as bad as one might think. Both closely resemble 1986 Preakness winner Snow Chief (DP = 0-4-2-0-0, DI = 5.00) in this respect.