PDA

View Full Version : what do you think of clocker reports. the clocker services in general as a tool or a


trytrytry
04-04-2017, 10:24 PM
what do you think of clocker reports. the paid tout like clocker services in general as a tool or a scam or just more glitsy packaged info that really is worthless in the end?

green80
04-04-2017, 10:54 PM
what do you think of clocker reports. the paid tout like clocker services in general as a tool or a scam or just more glitsy packaged info that really is worthless in the end?

you summed it up perfectly "just more glitsy packaged info that really is worthless in the end"

Anyone that has been around track workouts in the am would know just how much of a cluster these really are.

EasyGoer89
04-05-2017, 06:34 PM
it helps but you have to know how to use it and how to integrate it into your handicapping. If you're looking to be spoon fed the winners, you'll be disappointed.

HalvOnHorseracing
04-07-2017, 01:01 PM
My anecdotal experience has been that every trainer has a pattern and if you recognize the pattern, you can tell when something is not exactly right. I've stood next to trainers when they gave instructions to the jockey. "Jog him once around, break off at the half-mile pole and give me a :49." Just gallop him a two-minus lick." When you see :49 in the Racing Form, all that may mean is that is how fast the trainer ordered the rider to work the horse.

I know some trainers who like to put a sharp speed workout into a horse early in a pattern, and then a series of sub-:50 four furlong works leading up to a race. Baffert seems to work his horses very fast.

I look for patterns without long breaks, and something typical for the trainer. Learn to recognize patterns and you're well ahead of a lot of handicappers. The only thing I have found useful from professional observers is comments on the horse's interest, action, and liking for the track surface - things you can't get from the workout number - but 90% of the time the horse won't look special in a workout.

jay68802
04-07-2017, 01:30 PM
My anecdotal experience has been that every trainer has a pattern and if you recognize the pattern, you can tell when something is not exactly right. I've stood next to trainers when they gave instructions to the jockey. "Jog him once around, break off at the half-mile pole and give me a :49." Just gallop him a two-minus lick." When you see :49 in the Racing Form, all that may mean is that is how fast the trainer ordered the rider to work the horse.

I know some trainers who like to put a sharp speed workout into a horse early in a pattern, and then a series of sub-:50 four furlong works leading up to a race. Baffert seems to work his horses very fast.

I look for patterns without long breaks, and something typical for the trainer. Learn to recognize patterns and you're well ahead of a lot of handicappers. The only thing I have found useful from professional observers is comments on the horse's interest, action, and liking for the track surface - things you can't get from the workout number - but 90% of the time the horse won't look special in a workout.

I agree. Know your track, and know your trainer.

Baffert with first time starters almost always is in a 7 day work pattern, has a 6 f workout in 1:13 to 1:14 and then follows with a fast 5 f workout.

Karl Broberg works his horses slow, anything at 4 f under :52 is fast for him.

whodoyoulike
04-07-2017, 04:25 PM
what do you think of clocker reports. the paid tout like clocker services in general as a tool or a scam or just more glitsy packaged info that really is worthless in the end?

If you ever get an opportunity, try and watch the early morning workouts live a few times. It's organized chaos, IMO. You won't know any of the horses but you can still learn a few things, like where most horses make their moves etc.

And, if you can, grab a big cup of hot coffee and a couple of donuts and sit near a group of regulars in the stands and just listen. And, bring binocs if you can.

Have never used a clocker report but in SoCal there was one which was very highly thought of, I think it was Bruno something unsure if he still offers it since my recollection was from the '90's and early 2000's.

Dan Montilion
04-07-2017, 05:14 PM
I use them for the negative works.

HalvOnHorseracing
04-07-2017, 07:28 PM
If you ever get an opportunity, try and watch the early morning workouts live a few times. It's organized chaos, IMO. You won't know any of the horses but you can still learn a few things, like where most horses make their moves etc.

And, if you can, grab a big cup of hot coffee and a couple of donuts and sit near a group of regulars in the stands and just listen. And, bring binocs if you can.

Have never used a clocker report but in SoCal there was one which was very highly thought of, I think it was Bruno something unsure if he still offers it since my recollection was from the '90's and early 2000's.

Bruno de Julio, greatest workout watcher in the world, and if you don't believe me just ask him. You might think there are so know-it-alls here, but they are pikers compared to Bruno. And skin as thin as rice paper.

I agree about the chaos. At most you can tell which stable the horse belongs to, but not much more. There are often private clockers in the stands. Maybe you could ask them how they figure out who is who.

no breathalyzer
04-07-2017, 08:07 PM
Bruno de Julio, greatest workout watcher in the world, and if you don't believe me just ask him. You might think there are so know-it-alls here, but they are pikers compared to Bruno. And skin as thin as rice paper.

I agree about the chaos. At most you can tell which stable the horse belongs to, but not much more. There are often private clockers in the stands. Maybe you could ask them how they figure out who is who.

:ThmbUp: I agree guy is a hack

EasyGoer89
04-07-2017, 09:40 PM
Bruno de Julio, greatest workout watcher in the world, and if you don't believe me just ask him. You might think there are so know-it-alls here, but they are pikers compared to Bruno. And skin as thin as rice paper.

I agree about the chaos. At most you can tell which stable the horse belongs to, but not much more. There are often private clockers in the stands. Maybe you could ask them how they figure out who is who.

He's the greatest workout watcher?

glengarry
04-08-2017, 12:59 AM
what do you think of clocker reports. the paid tout like clocker services in general as a tool or a scam or just more glitsy packaged info that really is worthless in the end?

They were good for a few years in California until the guys on TVG started using them. Then they went south. Like anything else, once it's out in the public, it becomes less valuable. Some trainers hate having clockers, other than those who work for the form (who just give a distance and raw time) giving their horse a rating. They want no transparency in the game. I wouldn't trust these guys to show what their horse has in the morning if it were to affect the price they get in the afternoon.

HalvOnHorseracing
04-08-2017, 01:01 AM
He's the greatest workout watcher?

It doesn't always come through on line but if you read that closely, it's pretty clearly sarcasm.

098poi
04-08-2017, 09:39 AM
Bruno de Julio, greatest workout watcher in the world, and if you don't believe me just ask him. You might think there are so know-it-alls here, but they are pikers compared to Bruno. And skin as thin as rice paper.

I agree about the chaos. At most you can tell which stable the horse belongs to, but not much more. There are often private clockers in the stands. Maybe you could ask them how they figure out who is who.

That is funny. I think I'll trust your judgement.

Bata
04-18-2017, 01:11 AM
what do you think of clocker reports. the paid tout like clocker services in general as a tool or a scam or just more glitsy packaged info that really is worthless in the end?
Worthless

EasyGoer89
04-18-2017, 04:08 AM
Worthless

These reports are only worth something for certain types of handicappers who know how to use the reports as a specific type of supplement, you also have to 'know your analyst' which means if you use a service for a long time You'll get to know how to cherry pick what you want vs just taking it all at face value.

If you're just blindly using them with the idea that they'll spoon feed you the winner than yeah, they're useless.

Murph
04-18-2017, 05:02 AM
These reports are only worth something for certain types of handicappers who know how to use the reports as a specific type of supplement, you also have to 'know your analyst' which means if you use a service for a long time You'll get to know how to cherry pick what you want vs just taking it all at face value.

If you're just blindly using them with the idea that they'll spoon feed you the winner than yeah, they're useless.Once you are satisfied with a w/o report product, can you describe a specific situation or race type you can use them in for any kind of edge?

agameofskill
04-18-2017, 11:16 AM
Way too many positive workouts listed and very few negatives. Hard to use effectively because of that.

menifee
04-18-2017, 11:21 AM
Thanks to xbtv you can now watch a lot of workouts yourself and form your own opinions.

Racetrack Playa
04-18-2017, 11:55 AM
Thanks to xbtv you can now watch a lot of workouts yourself and form your own opinions.
XBTV:ThmbUp:really like this
:confused: the NYRA should do this, HD workout coverage , and numbered saddle clothes to make horse identification a breeze.
How setting up a "timeboard" sorta like a toteboard @ the training track.

Robert Fischer
04-18-2017, 12:01 PM
I do not know enough about clocker reports to post an opinion.

EasyGoer89
04-18-2017, 01:37 PM
Once you are satisfied with a w/o report product, can you describe a specific situation or race type you can use them in for any kind of edge?

Let me think about this I'll reply later today or tonight.

elhelmete
04-18-2017, 02:59 PM
I have used some here and there. Some random thoughts about them:

They were useful to me in interpreting trainer intent patterns.

They were useful to me in hearing about visual cues.

There seem to be too many positive workout 'grades.' Like if almost all workouts are in the B++ to A range, what's the use? In fact the commentary on any given workout seemed way more useful than an arbitrary grade.

Times themselves, in cases where the private clocker hand-times in addition to listing the official time, don't mean much to me.

whodoyoulike
04-18-2017, 05:36 PM
Bruno de Julio is the one who I was recalling. Here is a YouTube. I'm not endorsing him but apparently, he's been around since 1991. I thought he was strictly SoCal but it looks like he's branched out across the country.

He mentions a few things he tries to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bin1ZALXYfM

EasyGoer89
04-19-2017, 05:47 AM
Once you are satisfied with a w/o report product, can you describe a specific situation or race type you can use them in for any kind of edge?

I think these workout reports are more beneficial to visual handicappers because the comments of the works 'mean more' to people who handicap from replays or watching live races and gallop outs. Since horses are fragile and can regress overnight, the way a positive work can supplement is that you know your horse came out of his last effort no worse for wear, if you love a horse off replay and didn't have a work note, your video comments could have been made 3 weeks ago, if your clocker says that your selection was full of run in his work and was the picture of health, that should make you confident that he hasn't regressed since you last saw him on replay.

Murph
04-19-2017, 07:05 AM
I think these workout reports are more beneficial to visual handicappers because the comments of the works 'mean more' to people who handicap from replays or watching live races and gallop outs. Since horses are fragile and can regress overnight, the way a positive work can supplement is that you know your horse came out of his last effort no worse for wear, if you love a horse off replay and didn't have a work note, your video comments could have been made 3 weeks ago, if your clocker says that your selection was full of run in his work and was the picture of health, that should make you confident that he hasn't regressed since you last saw him on replay.

I've read that workout notes or reports may be useful to track maidens up to their first start. I've suspected that good reports might help me if I play older G stakes races. I've never used w/o reports and there are alot of opinions on them. It's why I asked. It seems not many are buying them and I think that's about right.

I'm comparing a couple of things like 12 sec per furlong, furlong per day and some other things I haven't tried before. Like many comments nothing interesting to report in those tests yet. We have some good tips here, like K Broberg slow and Baffert pattern.

Has anyone followed Lord Admiral on youtube?

SA trainer Jay Nehf has documented this runners careerup to the races. Interesting to hear the trainer while the horse works. Looks like he films the videos himself.

lamboguy
04-19-2017, 07:27 AM
just from a personal perspective, about 10 years ago i sent a baby out to Hollywood Park. she won first time out her name was KITTY IN THE BAG. she was fast as all hell. so we needed to run her again and we sent her to Churchill to run in the WHA Juvenile Stakes the day before the Kentucky Derby. she flew into Louisville on a Federal Express plane and went to the track. she went to the track and jogged a few days and galloped, then she needed to work. she worked much slower than she normally did. we spoke to the trainer and he said that was because she had flown in and she wasn't used to regular dirt.

i had known that Bruno was in Kentucky clocking horses so i decided to call him and ask him what he thought. he told me that KITTY IN THE BAG was not the same filly he saw in California. i asked the trainer and he said there was nothing wrong with the horse. so we went along with the trainer and ran her in the stake race against colts. this was nothing new to us because we had a filly that came from us before that ran in this same race against the boys and won it.

sure enough she runs and runs no go, she comes out of the race with bad shin splints and as it turns out had no business running in the race to begin with. the cracks spread and she had to be put down.

this was the only time i had ever spoken to Bruno and i only wish i listened to him. at that time there was nobody else that was impartial that knew more about that filly than him. it seems like the guy has a good memory and keeps good notes.

i have met the other well known clockers and can tell you their reports don't mean to much to me. today i still speak to a few clockers that are not public ones and they are pretty good. i don't have any 2 year olds this year, but when i did i only sent them to tracks where i have a good relationship with the clocker in that place so that i can have a good set of eyes watching over things for me.

fifth.day.of.may
04-19-2017, 01:50 PM
I agree with the general notion that you have to be familiar with the trainer and their patterns. As a syndie player I know that the trainer controls tightly how fast the horse will train for a published work, and to take it a bit further many track clockers are not as good as others at that position.

So to me if I am going to use those type of tools I like the ones like DRF published this past winter for the GP meet, I got a couple of winners from reading how they worked out and what tactics they used when running.

Murph
04-19-2017, 02:28 PM
just from a personal perspective, about 10 years ago i sent a baby out to Hollywood Park. she won first time out her name was KITTY IN THE BAG. she was fast as all hell. so we needed to run her again and we sent her to Churchill to run in the WHA Juvenile Stakes the day before the Kentucky Derby. she flew into Louisville on a Federal Express plane and went to the track. she went to the track and jogged a few days and galloped, then she needed to work. she worked much slower than she normally did. we spoke to the trainer and he said that was because she had flown in and she wasn't used to regular dirt.

i had known that Bruno was in Kentucky clocking horses so i decided to call him and ask him what he thought. he told me that KITTY IN THE BAG was not the same filly he saw in California. i asked the trainer and he said there was nothing wrong with the horse. so we went along with the trainer and ran her in the stake race against colts. this was nothing new to us because we had a filly that came from us before that ran in this same race against the boys and won it.

sure enough she runs and runs no go, she comes out of the race with bad shin splints and as it turns out had no business running in the race to begin with. the cracks spread and she had to be put down.

this was the only time i had ever spoken to Bruno and i only wish i listened to him. at that time there was nobody else that was impartial that knew more about that filly than him. it seems like the guy has a good memory and keeps good notes.

i have met the other well known clockers and can tell you their reports don't mean to much to me. today i still speak to a few clockers that are not public ones and they are pretty good. i don't have any 2 year olds this year, but when i did i only sent them to tracks where i have a good relationship with the clocker in that place so that i can have a good set of eyes watching over things for me.

I am sorry you lost her when you shipped into this high profile event at TP. Owners have to protect against things like this as best they can. You risk you entire investment, expenses and the life of your spirited/beloved animal to a host of unknown variables. All this before you even think about making any kind of wager. I don't know how you guys do it. Thank you from an area fan for taking that huge risk in the WHAS Stakes. I'm sorry for the result.

My thought with the trainers perspective on this is, I have no idea what was on his mind. I have to ask myself 'have I ever cost a guy some money because I was distracted or frustrated in my job?' It's happened! I think I've done everything possible to reduce risk to my customer or boss, but I fell way short because the result proves that isn't my best work!

In a case like that my only defense is the Mr Obvious routine.
'Huh! I never made the connection!'

dasch
04-19-2017, 02:38 PM
For me personally, knowing how a layoff horse is training who I feel might be a standout saves me much more money in ticket costs than the few $$ it costs for the reports per week.

That being said, IMO all workout reports are not equal in value. For instance there is one particular service in California that gives 90% of ALL Richard Baltas horses high workout grades, and also on many occasions give positive comments and high grades to big drop-down horses who end up not performing well. THIS service is worthless to me.

EasyGoer89
04-20-2017, 12:48 AM
For me personally, knowing how a layoff horse is training who I feel might be a standout saves me much more money in ticket costs than the few $$ it costs for the reports per week.

That being said, IMO all workout reports are not equal in value. For instance there is one particular service in California that gives 90% of ALL Richard Baltas horses high workout grades, and also on many occasions give positive comments and high grades to big drop-down horses who end up not performing well. THIS service is worthless to me.

This is why I suggest to 'know your clocker'

If you know a baltas horse stinks and he's being written up glowingly, edge: you

Lose The Juice
04-24-2017, 10:48 PM
They are useful with company works for many trainers (generally meaningless with Chad Brown, though), but in baby races, it would be nice to have more detailed info from private facilities like those of Niall Brennan, Jim Crupi, Goldmark, Fair Hill, etc. Many baby winners started out at these places, and have likely have done things far better than the inevitable 3f-in-37 notations suggest.