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razor
03-29-2017, 08:24 PM
Hi all

What would cause a horse to bleed thru lasix and what do you do with the horse when he runs back? Oaklawn's 5th tomorrow has a Van Berg horse that ran March 5th and comments say it bled and charts say it was vanned off. All his races previous that show up all have him on lasix with no issues except running like he's missing a lung.

Van Berg I always thought was a hay and oats kind of trainer so I trust his horses for the most part to be fit. So based on his last running line I would give him a look see in this race. He also worked 4 furlongs on March 24th in a respectable 48.4 breezing.

So whats everyones opinion on this horse or any horse in general that bleeds thru his lasix. What do you do with them nextime out?

Thanks.

HalvOnHorseracing
03-29-2017, 11:41 PM
Hi all

What would cause a horse to bleed thru lasix and what do you do with the horse when he runs back? Oaklawn's 5th tomorrow has a Van Berg horse that ran March 5th and comments say it bled and charts say it was vanned off. All his races previous that show up all have him on lasix with no issues except running like he's missing a lung.

Van Berg I always thought was a hay and oats kind of trainer so I trust his horses for the most part to be fit. So based on his last running line I would give him a look see in this race. He also worked 4 furlongs on March 24th in a respectable 48.4 breezing.

So whats everyones opinion on this horse or any horse in general that bleeds thru his lasix. What do you do with them nextime out?

Thanks.

Without knowing how Van Berg treated the horse, the horse may have been given a smaller than RMTC recommended dose (500 mg at 4 hours before a race). That is becoming more and more common. Trainers try to find the lowest dose that works for the horse. In which case they may up the dose next race.

I don't know if track conditions or environmental conditions affected the horse the day he bled through the medication.

It is also fairly common for horses to bleed through their Lasix although many of those horses do not bleed so badly that performance is severely compromised.

cj
03-29-2017, 11:44 PM
Without knowing how Van Berg treated the horse, the horse may have been given a smaller than RMTC recommended dose (500 mg at 4 hours before a race). That is becoming more and more common. Trainers try to find the lowest dose that works for the horse. In which case they may up the dose next race.

I don't know if track conditions or environmental conditions affected the horse the day he bled through the medication.

It is also fairly common for horses to bleed through their Lasix although many of those horses do not bleed so badly that performance is severely compromised.

It is also a bit of a misnomer. Horses don't bleed "through" Lasix, they bleed despite getting lasix. It isn't a foolproof drug and never has been. It is just as likely the dosage was exactly the same as it always is for the horse and he just bled anyway.

green80
03-30-2017, 08:32 AM
there are other bleeder medications that can be given in addition to lasix or along with lasix.

razor
03-30-2017, 08:46 AM
Thanks guys. From a handicapping perspective though are these types you see in the running lines automatic throwouts? Does the horse in question have to show something else special so to speak to have you consider them in todays race? Just curious what other handicappers had to say.

lamboguy
03-30-2017, 09:04 AM
Thanks guys. From a handicapping perspective though are these types you see in the running lines automatic throwouts? Does the horse in question have to show something else special so to speak to have you consider them in todays race? Just curious what other handicappers had to say.nothing in this game is an automatic throughout. i have seen plenty of horses win that have forms that don't show a pulse.

razor
03-30-2017, 09:56 AM
nothing in this game is an automatic throughout. i have seen plenty of horses win that have forms that don't show a pulse.

Yeah I understand what you mean Lambo. I have seen some atrocious looking running lines that have suddenly had a form reversal. When you see one of these come in you look back to see what you missed. You can present to the public false running lines to darken the form but you can't fake bleeding. Well unless you knowingly do like Halv said above give smaller doses knowing he will bleed as a way to darken the form. Just thinking it through.

johnhannibalsmith
03-30-2017, 11:33 AM
Generally speaking, I'd hate the horse. But, as a low class dweller, I've come to appreciate taking a glass half-full view of horses like this if the price is right. The logic goes something like this: If there is ever a time when a trainer is going to figure out all the things wrong with the horse that he's been clueless about, it is right after a terrible performance with infirmity/illness as a catalyst. That's the day they get the vet down there and scope and pull blood and jog and block and diagnose and treat and maybe even figure out something about the horse. Something that they can fix. Not so much in the case of bleeders for me if it was so apparent that it made the chart - I'd rather watch one unless the value is too great to pass - but the above is more or less why I rarely consider a horse a 'throwout' for such reasons.

razor
03-30-2017, 12:00 PM
Generally speaking, I'd hate the horse. But, as a low class dweller, I've come to appreciate taking a glass half-full view of horses like this if the price is right. The logic goes something like this: If there is ever a time when a trainer is going to figure out all the things wrong with the horse that he's been clueless about, it is right after a terrible performance with infirmity/illness as a catalyst. That's the day they get the vet down there and scope and pull blood and jog and block and diagnose and treat and maybe even figure out something about the horse. Something that they can fix. Not so much in the case of bleeders for me if it was so apparent that it made the chart - I'd rather watch one unless the value is too great to pass - but the above is more or less why I rarely consider a horse a 'throwout' for such reasons.

When a horse does bleed and he was on Lasix are there stipulations that the track or whoever place on that horse that he/she must pass before it can race there again? The horse in question is Grantastica in the 5th at Oaklawn. Had 12 races her career broke her maiden at Oaklawn for Van Berg. All her races were on Lasix. She ran March 5th bled and vanned off. Worked 4 furlongs on the 24th. I would assume she had to show someone (vet,track official) something to run back 25 days later. Is that what the work accomplished?

HalvOnHorseracing
03-30-2017, 12:04 PM
Yeah I understand what you mean Lambo. I have seen some atrocious looking running lines that have suddenly had a form reversal. When you see one of these come in you look back to see what you missed. You can present to the public false running lines to darken the form but you can't fake bleeding. Well unless you knowingly do like Halv said above give smaller doses knowing he will bleed as a way to darken the form. Just thinking it through.

LOL! I wasn't suggesting they do it darken a horse's form, but now that you mention it....

outofthebox
03-30-2017, 12:09 PM
Yeah I understand what you mean Lambo. I have seen some atrocious looking running lines that have suddenly had a form reversal. When you see one of these come in you look back to see what you missed. You can present to the public false running lines to darken the form but you can't fake bleeding. Well unless you knowingly do like Halv said above give smaller doses knowing he will bleed as a way to darken the form. Just thinking it through.A trainer would be foolish to administer a small amount of lasix knowing the horse would bleed to darken the form. Once a horse develops chronic bleeding episodes, it becomes very difficult to manage. I agree with all the responses above..

razor
03-30-2017, 12:19 PM
LOL! I wasn't suggesting they do it darken a horse's form, but now that you mention it....

Lol No I wasn't implying you suggested that in your response. Sorry if it came out that way. Do trainers mess with dosage on this stuff? Van Berg has had this horse for all his 12 starts and all on Lasix. The first time he ran him he won on Lasix so would he or anyone else mess with the dosage going forward? If so I wonder for what reason.

johnhannibalsmith
03-30-2017, 12:22 PM
When a horse does bleed and he was on Lasix are there stipulations that the track or whoever place on that horse that he/she must pass before it can race there again? ...

Yes, speaking generally again since there are probably exceptions scattered about, there is usually a 'jail' period for bleeding through lasix. As in, the horse is on the bleeder/vet list and can't be entered for 15 days, then it goes to 30 days, then something like 90, graduating upward for repeat events within a given time period. More or less, you get a chance to get it under control but you can't push it wily nily, and with each failed attempt at correcting it, you are being coerced to quit on the horse if you can't come up with the idea on your own.

razor
03-30-2017, 12:23 PM
A trainer would be foolish to administer a small amount of lasix knowing the horse would bleed to darken the form. Once a horse develops chronic bleeding episodes, it becomes very difficult to manage. I agree with all the responses above..

I tend to agree and I for one don't think Van Berg is a foolish trainer. So why run him back in 25 days? I don't get it something smells funny.

HalvOnHorseracing
03-30-2017, 12:38 PM
Lol No I wasn't implying you suggested that in your response. Sorry if it came out that way. Do trainers mess with dosage on this stuff? Van Berg has had this horse for all his 12 starts and all on Lasix. The first time he ran him he won on Lasix so would he or anyone else mess with the dosage going forward? If so I wonder for what reason.

I've talked to a quite a few trainers and they've all said they have cut back on the Lasix dose for most runners. There was a time when it was just automatic to give the horse the standard dose, but the threshold for furosemide is tough enough that if they can get by with a lower dose they will. Remember, probably no more than 3-5% of horses would be Level 3 or 4 bleeders. If you have a Level 1 bleeder, a sub-maximum dose would probably control bleeding enough.

However, the point about Van Berg is well taken. If you're going to mess with dose, you'll probably do it once you get the horse, but after 12 starts you should have it figured out. It's possible he tried cutting back as an experiment, or because the horse had flirted with the threshold, but it's just as likely the horse bled in spite of the Lasix.

johnhannibalsmith
03-30-2017, 12:48 PM
Looks like it was a bit of a rainy day on March 5 in Hot Springs, humidity could have been really high for parts of the day - just one of many possible influences that will possibly exacerbate the disposition. Even if you think Van Berg has lost his touch, he's seen a whole lot of bleeders of all stripes in several dozen handfuls of situations, I have to believe. I haven't looked at the race and doesn't sound like this is a lot of horse anyway, but if I were going to make an allowance for experience with the situation and liked the horse in the race, this is probably an example of a trainer whom I could be compelled to trust in judgment that the horse is as ready as he ever is.

Spalding No!
03-30-2017, 01:20 PM
there are other bleeder medications that can be given in addition to lasix or along with lasix.
Not legally in Arkansas, which adopted third party Lasix administration a couple of years ago.

razor
03-30-2017, 01:43 PM
Looks like it was a bit of a rainy day on March 5 in Hot Springs, humidity could have been really high for parts of the day - just one of many possible influences that will possibly exacerbate the disposition. Even if you think Van Berg has lost his touch, he's seen a whole lot of bleeders of all stripes in several dozen handfuls of situations, I have to believe. I haven't looked at the race and doesn't sound like this is a lot of horse anyway, but if I were going to make an allowance for experience with the situation and liked the horse in the race, this is probably an example of a trainer whom I could be compelled to trust in judgment that the horse is as ready as he ever is.

You could be right. I think for sanity sakes I am going to have to place a few dollars on this one. I was hoping they scratched her out but they didn't. I can't put my finger on what it is I like about her but at a morning line of 12-1 and after going off the previous race as a favorite in a entry I have to take a shot at a price.

biggestal99
03-30-2017, 05:04 PM
Yes, speaking generally again since there are probably exceptions scattered about, there is usually a 'jail' period for bleeding through lasix. As in, the horse is on the bleeder/vet list and can't be entered for 15 days, then it goes to 30 days, then something like 90, graduating upward for repeat events within a given time period. More or less, you get a chance to get it under control but you can't push it wily nily, and with each failed attempt at correcting it, you are being coerced to quit on the horse if you can't come up with the idea on your own.

Once had a mare that was a bleeder. Raced over 60 times, bled on lasix 4 times.

She was an iron horse, so when she didn't bleed on lasix, she was good to go a week later. However if she bled on lasix, you would see a layoff line, never won in those 4 starts after bleeding (did run a decent second once)

I would be leery but not an auto toss out.

Btw the stewards never found out about any of the 4 bleeding incidents.

Allan

Valuist
03-31-2017, 04:23 PM
When I see or hear a horse has bled thru Lasix, they are an automatic no-bet. If Lasix can't stop them from bleeding once, they are a candidate to bleed thru it every time.