Arrogate and How We Define Greatness - Haskin @ Bloodhorse

[PaceAdvantage]

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-racing-steve-haskin/archive/2017/03/28/arrogate-and-how-we-define-greatness.aspx

In only four races, I repeat, four races, Arrogate has defeated:

The 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th place finishers of the Kentucky Derby

2 Preakness winners

The 1st and 2nd place finishers of the Belmont Stakes

The 1st and 2nd place finishers of the Dubai World Cup

2 Santa Anita Handicap winners

A Pacific Classic winner

A Jockey Club Gold Cup winner

A Travers Stakes winner

A Met Mile winner

A Whitney Stakes winner

A Woodward Stakes winner

A Stephen Foster winner

A Cigar Mile winner

A Haskell Invitational winner

A Queens Plate winner

2 Clark Handicap winners

2 UAE Derby winners

2 group I winners in Japan

2 group I winners in Dubai

A Group I winner in Argentina and Chile

A Group winner in England and Turkey

Once again, that is in only four races. And he defeated the majority of those horses by double-digit margins.

In those four races, at four different tracks and two countries, he ran Beyer speed figures of 122, 120, 119, and 115, broke two track records, including a 37-year-old record at Saratoga, and earned a 141 Timeform figure in the Dubai World Cup, the highest Timeform figure in the 25 years since it began rating horses in North America. And he’s won his four races on the lead in a 13-horse field, coming from third and fifth, and coming from dead-last in a 14-horse field.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Fantastic piece. Haskin is one of the greats writing about one of the greats I spoke of! Glad I started to subscribe to the BH a few years ago.

[JustRalph]

Looking at it from that perspective is very interesting.

Good piece👍:ThmbUp:

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Coincidentally, Gun Runner almost did the same thing. I don't want to come off as anti-Arrogate because I do believe he is a great horse who gave an incredible performance, but if the bad break had cost Arrogate the race Gun Runner would have accomplished all that Haskin listed AND additionally beaten a BC Classic Winner, a three-time Grade 1 winner, and the winner of the world's richest race, and I don't think anybody is putting Gun Runner (the winner of one Grade 1 race) in the HOF discussion.

Haskin's point is well taken. Arrograte didn't beat a field of stiffs, and maybe that's all he's saying. But do the same exercise for some of the BC races, and the winner will look similarly impressive. It's the nature of the biggest races with full fields.

Arrogate has won four G1 races in his career, not an uncommon accomplishment for top horses. They've been impressive wins and there is no doubt Arrogate is the current top dirt horse in the world. I think we can wait until the end of his campaign to have the discussion on where he fits with the greats of all time.

[Augenj]

That guy knows horse racing. The whole article is about perspective and it's spot on. ;)

[barahona44]

Coincidentally, Gun Runner almost did the same thing. I don't want to come off as anti-Arrogate because I do believe he is a great horse who gave an incredible performance, but if the bad break had cost Arrogate the race Gun Runner would have accomplished all that Haskin listed AND additionally beaten a BC Classic Winner, a three-time Grade 1 winner, and the winner of the world's richest race, and I don't think anybody is putting Gun Runner (the winner of one Grade 1 race) in the HOF discussion.

Haskin's point is well taken. Arrograte didn't beat a field of stiffs, and maybe that's all he's saying. But do the same exercise for some of the BC races, and the winner will look similarly impressive. It's the nature of the biggest races with full fields.

Arrogate has won four G1 races in his career, not an uncommon accomplishment for top horses. They've been impressive wins and there is no doubt Arrogate is the current top dirt horse in the world.I think we can wait until the end of his campaign to have the discussion on where he fits with the greats of all time..

To paraphrase Bill Parcells "Let's not put him in Saratoga Springs just yet"

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Do the same exercise for Exceller after the Jockey Club Gold Cup. You can start by saying "Defeated two Triple Crown winners." No horse has done that before or since.

Do the same exercise for Prove Out. "Set track records at Belmont and Saratoga." "Beat arguably the greatest horse ever."

Do it for Bayern in the 2014 BC Classic.

That takes nothing away from Arrogate. I'm just putting the comparisons in perspective.

[PaceAdvantage]

Coincidentally, Gun Runner almost did the same thing.Not even almost:

"In those four races, at four different tracks and two countries, he ran Beyer speed figures of 122, 120, 119, and 115, broke two track records, including a 37-year-old record at Saratoga, and earned a 141 Timeform figure in the Dubai World Cup, the highest Timeform figure in the 25 years since it began rating horses in North America. And he’s won his four races on the lead in a 13-horse field, coming from third and fifth, and coming from dead-last in a 14-horse field."

[cj]

Not even almost:

"In those four races, at four different tracks and two countries, he ran Beyer speed figures of 122, 120, 119, and 115, broke two track records, including a 37-year-old record at Saratoga, and earned a 141 Timeform figure in the Dubai World Cup, the highest Timeform figure in the 25 years since it began rating horses in North America. And he’s won his four races on the lead in a 13-horse field, coming from third and fifth, and coming from dead-last in a 14-horse field."

I let Steve know he was wrong about the 141 and he has corrected it. That rating came from the Travers and is his Master Rating. For the World Cup he was rated 134+.

[JustRalph]

I let Steve know he was wrong about the 141 and he has corrected it. That rating came from the Travers and is his Master Rating. For the World Cup he was rated 134+.

Only a 134? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Not even almost:

"In those four races, at four different tracks and two countries, he ran Beyer speed figures of 122, 120, 119, and 115, broke two track records, including a 37-year-old record at Saratoga, and earned a 141 Timeform figure in the Dubai World Cup, the highest Timeform figure in the 25 years since it began rating horses in North America. And he’s won his four races on the lead in a 13-horse field, coming from third and fifth, and coming from dead-last in a 14-horse field."

I'm not arguing that Arrogate hasn't put together a great streak. But he's only won four Grade 1 races in his life to this point. I just think you could make a Haskin-like comparison for a lot of horses and they would look as good. For now he is the brightest flash in the sky. If he finishes the year as he started it, there is a more legitimate conversation about where he fits with the all time greats.

[cj]

Only a 134? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

The + indicates it could have been faster but with the trip it wasn't really possible for him to go much faster on that day.

I rated the race on my own numbers and came up with a 133, give or take a point. I can't rate Arrogate 145 and then give Gun Runner a 140 because he was just a couple lengths behind.

[JustRalph]

The + indicates it could have been faster but with the trip it wasn't really possible for him to go much faster on that day.

I rated the race on my own numbers and came up with a 133, give or take a point. I can't rate Arrogate 145 and then give Gun Runner a 140 because he was just a couple lengths behind.

Great stuff! No matter how you cut it, top of the charts, literally.

[whodoyoulike]

Good article with some good points one should consider in their evaluations.

A question I now have is, Is Haskins the AskinHaskin member on here?

Since both are very articulate and write with a depth of horse racing knowledge which is unavailable to me.

[PaceAdvantage]

A question I now have is, Is Haskins the AskinHaskin member on here?No.

[lamboguy]

i am not going to say that ARROGATE wasn't the best thing that we have ever seen, but how come the horse that finished second to him gets no respect at all?

he did all the heavy lifting during the race on the pace and beat up all the other horses behind him except for ARROGATE who swooped and blazed by him.

[dilanesp]

Do the same exercise for Exceller after the Jockey Club Gold Cup. You can start by saying "Defeated two Triple Crown winners." No horse has done that before or since.

Do the same exercise for Prove Out. "Set track records at Belmont and Saratoga." "Beat arguably the greatest horse ever."

Do it for Bayern in the 2014 BC Classic.

That takes nothing away from Arrogate. I'm just putting the comparisons in perspective.


Actually Noor beat two triple crown winners.

[cj]

i am not going to say that ARROGATE wasn't the best thing that we have ever seen, but how come the horse that finished second to him gets no respect at all?

he did all the heavy lifting during the race on the pace and beat up all the other horses behind him except for ARROGATE who swooped and blazed by him.

He gets respect, but he was probably 10-15 lengths slower than the winner. They aren't close.

[dilanesp]

Here's the thing. These debates come down to what you think a racehorse has to do be labeled "great".

Traditionally, with very few exceptions (Count Fleet, maybe?), horses only got that label after sustained careers, lots of big stakes wins, carrying weight, maybe some track records, as well as beating a bunch of top horses.

So when I say that Round Table is a great horse, you know exactly what I mean by that.

Unfortunately, the breeding industry has ruined this aspect of horse racing. The only horses who have careers that can possibly put themselves into that definition tend to be geldings, stallions with limited breeding value, and mares.

The problem with adjusting the definition to make Arrogate and Ghostzapper "great" is that you are giving them credit for something they didn't do. I love Arrogate. He's probably the fastest horse I've seen on a racetrack since Spectacular Bid, and the third fastest in my lifetime (behind Spectacular Bid and Secretariat). But you just can't compare a horse who has run four good races to all time great horses who had long careers.

And I certainly don't think that the terrible changes to the sport, where good horses are retired quickly, run four times a year, and never carry weight so they can retire with high winning percentages in only a few starts because that's what the breeding industry wants should be responded to with a lowering of the standard of what constitutes "greatness". If you disagree, though, fine, then Arrogate's great. Can't wait for the horse who is declared great off one start.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Actually Noor beat two triple crown winners.

My fault. I should have qualified. Beat two Triple Crown winners in the same race. Noor did beat Assault and Citation, but I believe in separate races. But that was a good catch.

[thaskalos]

And I certainly don't think that the terrible changes to the sport, where good horses are retired quickly, run four times a year, and never carry weight so they can retire with high winning percentages in only a few starts because that's what the breeding industry wants should be responded to with a lowering of the standard of what constitutes "greatness". If you disagree, though, fine, then Arrogate's great. Can't wait for the horse who is declared great off one start.

Okay then. Let's just agree that we will never again see a "legitimately great horse". Is that better?

[PaceAdvantage]

That's what they're saying thaskalos, and it's not fair and not right and downright crazy to think that never again will a racehorse be born that couldn't compete or surpass the greats of yesteryear.

Only in racing is there ZERO evolution of talent?

Come on.

[Dream_Police]

How many of those does one horse cover(Chrome) the list is a bit misleading.
1 Ky derby winner-Chrome
1 Preakness Winner-Chrome
1 Dubai Cup Winner-Chrome

see what I am getting at.

[PaceAdvantage]

You guys have convinced me. Arrogate sucks.

[dilanesp]

Okay then. Let's just agree that we will never again see a "legitimately great horse". Is that better?

We just saw one.

But it will be a stallion of low value (like Chrome), or a gelding, or a mare. (Or maybe a horse owned by a sportsman who doesn't give a hoot, like Allen Paulson was with Cigar.)

[cj]

We just saw one.

But it will be a stallion of low value (like Chrome), or a gelding, or a mare. (Or maybe a horse owned by a sportsman who doesn't give a hoot, like Allen Paulson was with Cigar.)


You're not saying Chrome was great but Arrogate isn't yet, are you? I mean Arrogate is clearly on another level.

By these kind of measures there will never be another great pitcher because Cy Young won 511 games.

[VeryOldMan]

You're not saying Chrome was great but Arrogate isn't yet, are you? I mean Arrogate is clearly on another level.

By these kind of measures there will never be another great pitcher because Cy Young won 511 games.
I think you guys are being a bit unfair to dilanesp - he's suggesting that Chrome was on the same vector as some of the "old school" horses who raced deep into their career, or carried weight, or set track records, etc. CC raced when he was 5, which made him an "old man" which we rarely get to see in the modern age, unfortunately. We don't get to see Forego chase down Honest Pleasure spotting 18 pounds, e.g. I don't think anyone here is taking away from what Arrogate has accomplished - it's been a joy to watch as a horse racing fan.

[castaway01]

I think you guys are being a bit unfair to dilanesp - he's suggesting that Chrome was on the same vector as some of the "old school" horses who raced deep into their career, or carried weight, or set track records, etc. CC raced when he was 5, which made him an "old man" which we rarely get to see in the modern age, unfortunately. We don't get to see Forego chase down Honest Pleasure spotting 18 pounds, e.g. I don't think anyone here is taking away from what Arrogate has accomplished - it's been a joy to watch as a horse racing fan.

I think that's part of the reason why these arguments are so frustrating. There IS logic to the idea that horses from yesteryear who ran 20 times against top competition had more of a chance to prove their greatness than those running now. The problem, as everyone else is pointing out, is that if you have to run 30 races and carry 135 pounds to be great (or pick your old-time standards) we'll never have a great horse again.

If you prefer a baseball argument, Arrogate is Sandy Koufax. Most baseball fans (and what sport's fans love history and tradition more?) allow that Koufax was one of the all-time great pitchers even though he only had five brilliant years. We need to be more open to that argument in horse racing because otherwise we're just denying ourselves the chance to acknowledge horses like Arrogate.

[dilanesp]

I think that's part of the reason why these arguments are so frustrating. There IS logic to the idea that horses from yesteryear who ran 20 times against top competition had more of a chance to prove their greatness than those running now. The problem, as everyone else is pointing out, is that if you have to run 30 races and carry 135 pounds to be great (or pick your old-time standards) we'll never have a great horse again.

If you prefer a baseball argument, Arrogate is Sandy Koufax. Most baseball fans (and what sport's fans love history and tradition more?) allow that Koufax was one of the all-time great pitchers even though he only had five brilliant years. We need to be more open to that argument in horse racing because otherwise we're just denying ourselves the chance to acknowledge horses like Arrogate.

It's possible to acknowledge Arrogate (and Ghostzapper, who I continue to believe is the closest analogue to Arrogate) while acknowledging he's not in the same class as horses who truly had great long careers.

And the problem is, I don't think it's a good thing to relax standards just because nobody's meeting them. (Especially since it's still possible to meet them-- it is ONLY valuable stallions who get these stupid 4 race seasons. Compare how Baffert handled Arrogate to how he handled Game on Dude, for instance. Had Game on Dude been a bit better, he could have met tests for greatness. As it is he managed the second fastest 1 1/4 miles on dirt in history.)

[Nitro]

I think you guys are being a bit unfair to dilanesp - he's suggesting that Chrome was on the same vector as some of the "old school" horses who raced deep into their career, or carried weight, or set track records, etc. CC raced when he was 5, which made him an "old man" which we rarely get to see in the modern age, unfortunately. We don't get to see Forego chase down Honest Pleasure spotting 18 pounds, e.g. I don't think anyone here is taking away from what Arrogate has accomplished - it's been a joy to watch as a horse racing fan.
You Hit it right on the head my friend! There's a lot more to being considered a Great race horse than winning a few races in decent race time.

I wonder how many here would bet on Arrogate carrying a 120 lbs versus Dr. Fager carrying 130 lbs going a flat mile? I know where my money would be!

Fortunately there are still some of us who hold things to higher standards and don't believe in giving out a trophy to every kid just because they participated.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

I think most of the people not ready to insert Arrogate in the Secretariat-Man o'War category are simply saying let him finish his career and then we'll have a punctuation mark on which to decide. I'm not sure anyone doesn't believe Arrogate was a great horse who ran a great race in the DWC. But if you want to stick with the Koufax analogy, I don't think Sandy was HOF material after the 1961 season (he was only 36-40 in his first six years) or even the 1962 season. But after 1966 I don't think there were too many people who believed he didn't belong.

CJ, did you ever figure out what the TF figures would have been for classic races like Secretariat's Belmont or Seattle Slew's JC Gold Cup?

[cj]

I think most of the people not ready to insert Arrogate in the Secretariat-Man o'War category are simply saying let him finish his career and then we'll have a punctuation mark on which to decide. I'm not sure anyone doesn't believe Arrogate was a great horse who ran a great race in the DWC. But if you want to stick with the Koufax analogy, I don't think Sandy was HOF material after the 1961 season (he was only 36-40 in his first six years) or even the 1962 season. But after 1966 I don't think there were too many people who believed he didn't belong.

CJ, did you ever figure out what the TF figures would have been for classic races like Secretariat's Belmont or Seattle Slew's JC Gold Cup?

No, maybe someday when I have several assistants. 😀

[menifee]

I heard Beyer theorizing that perhaps the American t-bred was making a comeback. Clearly, the late 60s and 70s was the heyday of American racing. Fager, Secratariat, Affirmed,Slew, Bid.

We've now had two really good horses that can be compared to those greats. I hope the next decade produces some more as racing needs stars. Hopefully with the advent of the Pegasus and the amount of $ that's available they will actually compete against each other and stay on the track.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

I agree with dilanesp

Greatness involves a high level of performance over a long period of time. For horses you need to perform at a high level for at least 3 seasons to be considered "great"

Ghostzapper and Arrogate are very good horses but I would never call them great

In recent years in the USA only Zenyatta had the time component covered that would enable her to be considered a modern day great

[rastajenk]

I'm trying to imagine how horse-racing's corner of the Internet would look if it had existed back in the glorious '70's. I would think these guys would get an intense, long-lasting workout :rant: :pound: :pout: :popcorn: :rolleyes: :bang: in the effort to define greatness then.


:cool:

[whodoyoulike]

I'm trying to imagine how horse-racing's corner of the Internet would look if it had existed back in the glorious '70's. I would think these guys would get an intense, long-lasting workout :rant: :pound: :pout: :popcorn: :rolleyes: :bang: in the effort to define greatness then.


:cool:

Not just in horse racing but in a general sense, I think I would realize it when I see it.

[delayjf]

Ghostzapper and Arrogate are very good horses but I would never call them great

I would be curious to know how Ghostzapper compared to Arrogate from a speed figure perspective.

.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

I agree with dilanesp

Greatness involves a high level of performance over a long period of time. For horses you need to perform at a high level for at least 3 seasons to be considered "great"

Ghostzapper and Arrogate are very good horses but I would never call them great

In recent years in the USA only Zenyatta had the time component covered that would enable her to be considered a modern day great

That will never happen again with modern day horses due to the $'s in the breeding shed.

Even the people's champion in California Chrome is being paraded around the planet to breed for $'s after his retirement. His retirement being the OLD ripe age after his 5YO season.

Arrogate is the richest horse of all time due to 4 straight races. FOUR. In four races he was won more prize money than any horse ever. We'll see him for his 4YO season for about 2 more times before the BC Classic. Maybe even just 1 more time.

The entire sport nowadays is about breeding, and dollars made from breeding and purchases made for breeding, and breeding, and breeding, and breeding. Did I mention breeding?

With that context involved, we will never see another John Henry. Or a Cigar. A Kelso. A Dr. Fager. A Forego.

So to try and compare horses to the 70's and before isn't fair to either side. How about we just enjoy a really really special horse?

[Spalding No!]

With that context involved, we will never see another John Henry. Or a Cigar. A Kelso. A Dr. Fager. A Forego.
3 of those were geldings (and another was infertile). We certainly have seen some long-lived geldings in recent decades, they just haven't been particularly great.

Evening Attire, Funny Cide, Perfect Drift, Moreno, Commentator, Ruler On Ice, Kona Gold, Creme Fraiche, Primal, Hymn Book, Brass Hat, De Roche, Dramatic Gold, L'Carriere, Budroyale, Game On Dude, John's Call, Rail Trip, Lava Man, Sky Jack, Best Pal, General Challenge, Itsallgreektome, Well Armed, Del Mar Dennis, Super Diamond, Imperative, Sir Bear, Peeping Tom, Bribon, Private Zone, Balto Star, Arson Squad, Affirmed Success, With Anticipation, Valid, Victor Cooley, Not Surprising, A.P. Indian,...

And Shared Belief threatened to be a great one in an tragically short career.

[CosmicWon]

You're forgetting Wise Dan on the list of geldings, and he was a truly GREAT horse. Fabulous Strike should also be on that list and he put up figs faster than Arrogate more than once. Shared Belief was on the cusp of greatness and oh yeah won 5G1s in 12 starts from distances of 7F (1:20 and change) to 10F (2:00-1/5). He and Ghostzapper possess what Areogate may not which is versatility.

I don't think Arrogate would've beaten Frosted in his Met Mile last year.

If Arrogate runs but never wins again is he still "great"? The money thing doesn't impress me because he got lucky and happened to come around just in time for the first profligate Pegasus. Would he be as highly regarded if he'd won the Donn and $600,000?

Arrogate is to me Curlin-lite at this point and he has a looong way to go if he wants to be more accomplished (on the track AND in the breeding shed) than that beast.

I keep wondering how the guys on PTI would approach this discussion. I guess the fact that they haven't means Arrogate hasn't moved the sports needle much even after last weekend.

[JustRalph]

I don't think Curlin ever ran any numbers like we've seen from Arrogate. Just from memory?

[Spalding No!]

You're forgetting Wise Dan on the list of geldings, and he was a truly GREAT horse. Fabulous Strike should also be on that list and he put up figs faster than Arrogate more than once. Shared Belief was on the cusp of greatness and oh yeah won 5G1s in 12 starts from distances of 7F (1:20 and change) to 10F (2:00-1/5). He and Ghostzapper possess what Areogate may not which is versatility.
Yeah, I didn't bother with turf horses (except for John's Call). Wise Dan is a perfect example.

By the way, Cozmic One is nearly race ready at Santa Anita judging by the workouts.

[Spalding No!]

I don't think Curlin ever ran any numbers like we've seen from Arrogate. Just from memory?

119 Beyer in the BC Classic in the slop.

www1.drf.com/newsletter/CurlinLifetime.pdf

[CincyHorseplayer]

That will never happen again with modern day horses due to the $'s in the breeding shed.

Even the people's champion in California Chrome is being paraded around the planet to breed for $'s after his retirement. His retirement being the OLD ripe age after his 5YO season.

Arrogate is the richest horse of all time due to 4 straight races. FOUR. In four races he was won more prize money than any horse ever. We'll see him for his 4YO season for about 2 more times before the BC Classic. Maybe even just 1 more time.

The entire sport nowadays is about breeding, and dollars made from breeding and purchases made for breeding, and breeding, and breeding, and breeding. Did I mention breeding?

With that context involved, we will never see another John Henry. Or a Cigar. A Kelso. A Dr. Fager. A Forego.

So to try and compare horses to the 70's and before isn't fair to either side. How about we just enjoy a really really special horse?

A fine perspective Lemon Drop Husker. A nice opening salvo to the spring and the big year ahead of us brother.:ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

That will never happen again with modern day horses due to the $'s in the breeding shed.

Even the people's champion in California Chrome is being paraded around the planet to breed for $'s after his retirement. His retirement being the OLD ripe age after his 5YO season.

Arrogate is the richest horse of all time due to 4 straight races. FOUR. In four races he was won more prize money than any horse ever. We'll see him for his 4YO season for about 2 more times before the BC Classic. Maybe even just 1 more time.

The entire sport nowadays is about breeding, and dollars made from breeding and purchases made for breeding, and breeding, and breeding, and breeding. Did I mention breeding?

With that context involved, we will never see another John Henry. Or a Cigar. A Kelso. A Dr. Fager. A Forego.

So to try and compare horses to the 70's and before isn't fair to either side. How about we just enjoy a really really special horse?Chrome had ample opportunity to amass all that money and it took him all those races to do it...Arrogate did it in, as you say, four races (well, it was more than four, but who's counting?)

Anyway, just proves again what a superior animal Arrogate is...all that money was available to a bunch of other horses in 2016 and 2017 and they couldn't do it...funny how that works.

[PaceAdvantage]

Arrogate is to me Curlin-lite at this pointWow.

[thaskalos]

Seeing how fruitless a pursuit it is to compare horses from different eras...I've devised my own (admittedly crude) barometer for judging "greatness"...in man, OR beast.

This being a pretty big country...it takes true "greatness" to be the "best"...in ANYTHING. So...if a horse proves to be the best that I've seen in a DECADE...then I am willing to declare such a horse as "one of the best EVER". And Arrogate definitely qualifies.

[castaway01]

The entire sport nowadays is about breeding, and dollars made from breeding and purchases made for breeding, and breeding, and breeding, and breeding. Did I mention breeding?

With that context involved, we will never see another John Henry. Or a Cigar. A Kelso. A Dr. Fager. A Forego.

So to try and compare horses to the 70's and before isn't fair to either side. How about we just enjoy a really really special horse?

This has been true for at least the last 30 years though. I think it's actually more of a function of horses running fewer races under less weight that prevents comparisons to the "old days" than retiring early to breed. It's a shame some of us haven't adjusted our standards to acknowledge you can be great without accomplishing the exact same feats the champion of 1964 did.

[AskinHaskin]

It's possible to acknowledge Arrogate (and Ghostzapper, who I continue to believe is the closest analogue to Arrogate)


Are you speaking of the same Ghostzapper who went two turns exactly twice in his life? When one of those was a 4-horse field in the Monmouth slop?


Arrogate has already topped as many foes this year as Ghostzapper did in his entire Horse-of-the-Year campaign.

... the HOY campaign which kicked-off in July vs. Aggadan (never won stakes at all outside of Maryland-breds) and Unforgettable Max (only career stakes win was in a $54K affair at Delaware Park).

... the HOY campaign which continued against Presidential Affair (grade 3 winner on best days) and the great Zoffinger (ran 30 times after meeting Ghostzapper and lost all 30 of them to finish up 2-for-37)


There's half of Ghostzapper's HOY campaign right there!

The easy pace scenario in the BC Classic was just icing on the cake.



Arrogate could stop right now and tower over anything Ghostzapper ever legitimately did.


In far too many circles those voting for HOY just pause and consider whoever won the Gr. I Woodward and then submit their vote according to whichever name topped the list.



However I will agree that it is too soon to rate Arrogate with what are truly the all-time greats. He's still just a new 4yo though, so improvement isn't out of the question.

[EMD4ME]

No, maybe someday when I have several assistants. 😀

Should I sharpen up the resume? :)

[dilanesp]

Chrome had ample opportunity to amass all that money and it took him all those races to do it...Arrogate did it in, as you say, four races (well, it was more than four, but who's counting?)

Anyway, just proves again what a superior animal Arrogate is...all that money was available to a bunch of other horses in 2016 and 2017 and they couldn't do it...funny how that works.


That just shows how much these rich races have warped the sport.

[maddog42]

Chrome had
ample opportunity to amass all that money and it took him all those races to do it...Arrogate did it in, as you say, four races (well, it was more than four, but who's counting?)

Anyway, just proves again what a superior animal Arrogate is...all that money was available to a bunch of other horses in 2016 and 2017 and they couldn't do it...funny how that works.

Something tells me we haven't seen his best race... and that means we are looking at a Bid/Secretariat type horse. The last 2 years have been wonderful for racing.

[dilanesp]

Something tells me we haven't seen his best race... and that means we are looking at a Bid/Secretariat type horse. The last 2 years have been wonderful for racing.


I agree we probably haven't seen his best, but that's another reason to be tickef off at his light schedule. If he doesn't run much, it decreases the likelihood that he ever runs that freak race.

[Cratos]

I agree we probably haven't seen his best, but that's another reason to be tickef off at his light schedule. If he doesn't run much, it decreases the likelihood that he ever runs that freak race.

The DWC might not be the “freak race” which you are seeking to see Arrogate perform, but during that race he did have some freakish accomplishments:

• Fell behind the leader, Long River after the first 100m by 1.80 seconds and finished ahead of him by 5.10 seconds at the end; a 6.90 second change.

• After the first 400m, he ran the next set of 400m faster than the leader to include running the last 400m in 23.90 seconds.

• His average kph velocity for the last 400m was equivalent to the rate of running 6F in 1:07.89 seconds and this coming after running 1600m.

[dilanesp]

This has been true for at least the last 30 years though. I think it's actually more of a function of horses running fewer races under less weight that prevents comparisons to the "old days" than retiring early to breed. It's a shame some of us haven't adjusted our standards to acknowledge you can be great without accomplishing the exact same feats the champion of 1964 did.

1. "Adjusting our standards" is unfair to the past horses. Whatever category Arrogate belongs in, he just doesn't belong in the same category as Swaps, for instance. (Take a look at his 1955 and 1956 seasons, look at the times run and the weight carried, and get back to me.) When you call a horse with a career like Arrogate "great", you diminish horses who did a lot more.

2. It's actually not true that Arrogate can't do what earlier horses did. His owners don't want to do it. If Arrogate's testicles were cut off in a freak stable accident tomorrow, they suddenly would want to do it. (If Arrogate were a girl, they'd want to do it too.)

If owners don't want to run their horses and establish their greatness, that's on the owners. But we can't start elevating horses who haven't achieved enough to deserve the status of "greatness" just because owners are greedy with intact colts.