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classhandicapper
03-22-2017, 09:47 AM
I find it interesting that the NBA is having all these discussions about resting players and how it impacts the sport negatively.

Coaches like Gregg Popovich have argued that the science and results on the court argue for resting players because it keeps them fresher for the important games at the end of the season and extends player careers. Fans and the sport itself had an issue with it because he would sometimes rest his star players for the marquee TV games that help generate interest in the sport.

Now more teams are imitating Popovich because they know he is right. So it's starting to blow up into a bigger issue.

The first major trainer I recall believing spacing was very important was Bobby Frankel. Then other trainers copied his success with that approach until it basically became the norm.

If the NBA can figure out a way to balance the rest required to keep players fresh for the playoffs and extend their careers vs. the best interests of the sport, maybe racing can also.

cj
03-22-2017, 09:58 AM
I personally can't equate what basketball players go through, including the ridiculous travel schedules, to a horse running every couple weeks. If the horses really need that much time off like they get now it is because of the drugs IMO.

Inner Dirt
03-22-2017, 10:22 AM
Honest question, why can harness horses race weekly for months at a time and thoroughbreds average to race once a month or less?

classhandicapper
03-22-2017, 10:44 AM
I have mixed feelings on the subject, but I think both sports face the same fundamental problem.

In basketball the goal is to avoid injuries and stay fresh for the playoffs and finals.

In horse racing the goal is to stay fresh and avoid injuries so you can win the Breeder's Cup and an Eclipse Award.

The only debate is what the optimal strategy is in terms of rest/spacing to accomplish those goals. That's where the science and data should help.

I believe the science and data is pretty clear for NBA players. That industry has the money and resources to study things like that to death and has.

I've seen some miscellaneous studies on horse racing that suggest overwork (including workouts) will eventually lead to horses tailing off. I know from decades of experience before the spacing phase that the older horses that used to peak in Jan-Mar and race on a full schedule were often not the same horses peaking in the fall. However, I haven't seen hard data with controls.

It's possible to be correct about spacing but overshoot and leave money and prestige on the table.

It's possible to be correct about spacing in general but wrong about a specific horse.

I think racing needs more hard data (some people may already have it) to demonstrate the optimal strategy. If it turns out that spacing is required, do what the NBA is doing and try to alter schedules, purses, work with owners and trainers etc... so we don't don't lose marquee matchups as often.

Spalding No!
03-22-2017, 11:15 AM
This "spacing" trend seems to do nothing for the issue of soundness. Look at what happened to Mastery, who was perfectly capable of racing in the earlier preps at Santa Anita, but his trainer opted to wait all the way until March to unveil him at 3. Ghostzapper sat out 6 months between his BC Classic win and the Met Mile and was toast a couple of weeks later after winning the latter. Invasor won in Dubai in March then awaited the summer to campaign towards a second BC Classic. He failed to make a single start.

The reality is these horses are still under intense training despite not racing. Or they are treading water and getting extra recovery time in the form of "light" training only to go into an accelerated (and therefore more intense) training program because they now not only have to make the target race but also be fit enough to contend for the win without the benefit of a prep race. So maintaining soundness doesn't seem to be the focus of this training style.

It seems the reasons behind it is possibly recovery from drugs and a obsession with avoiding "bounces" and/or losses in general (via speed figures, bloodwork, etc.) that might downgrade a horse's (or the trainer's for that matter) reputation.

As for the observation that the top horses horses early in the year are rarely the same ones that are peaking in the fall, that simply points out the need for a distinct "season" in horse racing, at least at the top class level (as it is in just about every jurisdiction outside the US). No horse of any kind can withstand year-round racing and training for more than one or two consecutive years. If the horsemen are not willing to take the initiative and simply have an off season for their charges then perhaps some governing body can mandate that graded stakes are only carded between, say, March and October.

As it stands now, this "spacing" trend is a lot like Kramer's theory of sleep from Seinfeld. A bunch of cat naps during the day instead of solid 6-8 hours at night would somehow allow him to get more accomplished. It didn't work.

In the end, he was so spent that his girlfriend had him tossed over a bridge into the East River.

Secondbest
03-22-2017, 11:15 AM
Honest question, why can harness horses race weekly for months at a time and thoroughbreds average to race once a month or less?

That's a great question.

Spalding No!
03-22-2017, 11:19 AM
That's a great question.
One major difference between Standardbred racing and Thoroughbred racing is the gait (and therefore speed) at which they respectively compete. In general, jogging is a lot less intense then galloping.

That's not to say that Standardbred's don't suffer significant injury while racing and training.

MonmouthParkJoe
03-22-2017, 11:28 AM
One major difference between Standardbred racing and Thoroughbred racing is the gait (and therefore speed) at which they respectively compete. In general, jogging is a lot less intense then galloping.

That's not to say that Standardbred's don't suffer significant injury while racing and training.

Plus 1 here. I think alot has to do with the gait not being as traumatic. I also think part of it also goes with the difference in purse monies offered between the breeds. Some of the better harness horses do take some time off but the purses are much higher at that level. Most bottom level horses run more so they earn their "keep"

Secondbest
03-22-2017, 11:32 AM
One major difference between Standardbred racing and Thoroughbred racing is the gait (and therefore speed) at which they respectively compete. In general, jogging is a lot less intense then galloping.

That's not to say that Standardbred's don't suffer significant injury while racing and training.

I understand that but a lot of them run every week. I think CJ may be right about the drugs

Spalding No!
03-22-2017, 11:34 AM
I understand that but a lot of them run every week. I think CJ may be right about the drugs
Racing Standardbreds receive a lot of medications and therapies between starts despite the short interval.

cj
03-22-2017, 12:48 PM
I have mixed feelings on the subject, but I think both sports face the same fundamental problem.

In basketball the goal is to avoid injuries and stay fresh for the playoffs and finals.

In horse racing the goal is to stay fresh and avoid injuries so you can win the Breeder's Cup and an Eclipse Award.

The only debate is what the optimal strategy is in terms of rest/spacing to accomplish those goals. That's where the science and data should help.

I believe the science and data is pretty clear for NBA players. That industry has the money and resources to study things like that to death and has.

I've seen some miscellaneous studies on horse racing that suggest overwork (including workouts) will eventually lead to horses tailing off. I know from decades of experience before the spacing phase that the older horses that used to peak in Jan-Mar and race on a full schedule were often not the same horses peaking in the fall. However, I haven't seen hard data with controls.

It's possible to be correct about spacing but overshoot and leave money and prestige on the table.

It's possible to be correct about spacing in general but wrong about a specific horse.

I think racing needs more hard data (some people may already have it) to demonstrate the optimal strategy. If it turns out that spacing is required, do what the NBA is doing and try to alter schedules, purses, work with owners and trainers etc... so we don't don't lose marquee matchups as often.

The goal of about .1% of horses is to win BC races and Eclipse Awards. What about the rest?

I don't think Bobby Frankel started out thinking spacing was necessary. He adapted his methods as Lasix became more and more prevalent. He was ahead of the curve. Trainers have probably gone overboard, but they didn't just start racing less for no reason.

EasyGoer89
03-22-2017, 01:43 PM
Honest question, why can harness horses race weekly for months at a time and thoroughbreds average to race once a month or less?

Harness horses don't carry weight on their backs that's prob the biggest factor.

Decades ago harness horses used to get a lot of training between races, not as much anymore, they get freshened between starts, some guys won't train them at all between races these days, that was unheard of decades ago.

thaskalos
03-22-2017, 01:54 PM
The NBA players are asked to play 5 games in 7 days...while flying to all sorts of different locales. The horses today are having a hard time racing once a month...while stationed at the same place months at a time. There is no valid "spacing" comparison between the two sports...IMO.

The horses aren't rested so they can be "freshened". They are rested because they are forced to race with ailments...while under the effects of powerful pain-killing drugs.

ultracapper
03-22-2017, 02:24 PM
When the San Antonio Spurs know they are going to be no lower than a 3 seed in the playoffs as early as Christmas regardless of whether they win a mid February game or not, they know they can rest their guys in that game with no consequences to their championship hopes.

The NBA and horse racing are apples and oranges.

ultracapper
03-22-2017, 02:31 PM
as for Pop, notice he always rests those guys in marquee games? It's never against the lowly teams, always against major contenders. He's monitoring what his 8th, 9th, and 10th guy on the roster can do against teams that are going to matter in May and June.

dilanesp
03-22-2017, 03:43 PM
I have mixed feelings on the subject, but I think both sports face the same fundamental problem.

In basketball the goal is to avoid injuries and stay fresh for the playoffs and finals.

In horse racing the goal is to stay fresh and avoid injuries so you can win the Breeder's Cup and an Eclipse Award.

The only debate is what the optimal strategy is in terms of rest/spacing to accomplish those goals. That's where the science and data should help.

I believe the science and data is pretty clear for NBA players. That industry has the money and resources to study things like that to death and has.

I've seen some miscellaneous studies on horse racing that suggest overwork (including workouts) will eventually lead to horses tailing off. I know from decades of experience before the spacing phase that the older horses that used to peak in Jan-Mar and race on a full schedule were often not the same horses peaking in the fall. However, I haven't seen hard data with controls.

It's possible to be correct about spacing but overshoot and leave money and prestige on the table.

It's possible to be correct about spacing in general but wrong about a specific horse.

I think racing needs more hard data (some people may already have it) to demonstrate the optimal strategy. If it turns out that spacing is required, do what the NBA is doing and try to alter schedules, purses, work with owners and trainers etc... so we don't don't lose marquee matchups as often.

All of this is of course possible, but on the other hand, there are huge monetary incentives to race good horses as little as possible (remember, claimers still race a lot!), whereas 50 or 75 years ago, the incentives were precisely the opposite.

I tend to assume that people in big money sports are doing what is economically rational (and justifying it with claims about physical exertion) until proven otherwise.

classhandicapper
03-22-2017, 03:45 PM
The NBA players are asked to play 5 games in 7 days...while flying to all sorts of different locales. The horses today are having a hard time racing once a month...while stationed at the same place months at a time. There is no valid "spacing" comparison between the two sports...IMO.

The horses aren't rested so they can be "freshened". They are rested because they are forced to race with ailments...while under the effects of powerful pain-killing drugs.

You are basically saying the same thing as Popovich.

NBA players play through injuries also. Resting is to a large extent about reducing the risk of injuries and not aggravating them. It decreases the probability of injury and/or for a minor injury to become a major one that shortens a player's career.

The assertion is that horses, being more fragile, get injured easier, wear down from daily training and racing, and you risk turning minor things into major things if they are not given time off.

There's not much difference in those things.

The major difference is that Popovich has science and data to back up his assertions and strategies.

In horse racing we have theories based the experience of trainers and we have the opinions of handicappers that spend little to no time with flesh and blood horses. I have yet to see hard data. I only have my own experience. I've seen horses wear down over the course of a season, possibly due to an accumulation of injuries but perhaps from just being tired from daily training and racing. What I don't have is controlled percentages and probabilities.

classhandicapper
03-22-2017, 03:59 PM
The goal of about .1% of horses is to win BC races and Eclipse Awards. What about the rest?

I don't think Bobby Frankel started out thinking spacing was necessary. He adapted his methods as Lasix became more and more prevalent. He was ahead of the curve. Trainers have probably gone overboard, but they didn't just start racing less for no reason.

Lasix could easily be an issue. We probably need more data on that also.

It's true that the Breeder's Cup only impacts the best horses, but I hear that kind of thing about the cheap NY Breds I own a piece of too. The trainer works all his horses very lightly. Once a horse is fit, he rarely even breezes them. They mostly just gallop daily and may breeze once just before a race. When they haven't had a break for awhile and show any signs of going off form (even if still sound) he wants to send them to the farm for a freshening.

dilanesp
03-22-2017, 04:22 PM
Lasix could easily be an issue. We probably need more data on that also.

It's true that the Breeder's Cup only impacts the best horses, but I hear that kind of thing about the cheap NY Breds I own a piece of too. The trainer works all his horses very lightly. Once a horse is fit, he rarely even breezes them. They mostly just gallop daily and may breeze once just before a race. When they haven't had a break for awhile and show any signs of going off form (even if still sound) he wants to send them to the farm for a freshening.


My mother owns racehorses, uses minor trainers, and has the same experience.

However, at least out here, the big high percentage claiming trainers aren't like that at all. They run their cheap horses all the time.

iamt
03-22-2017, 05:25 PM
I've always felt that this is a Lasix issue along with the desire for early speed.

Our races are run backwards to almost any other country in the world. Horses are asked to exert themselves early and then hang on as best as they can; horses are asked to run past their limit in almost every start.

Australia run their horse's much more, and their style is to run a much slower pace early and sprint the last quarter, their horses aren't exerting as much in a race as ours.

Add a diuretic to the mix in Lasix and the physical demands are added to again.

rsetup
03-22-2017, 09:23 PM
The major difference is that Popovich has science and data to back up his assertions and strategies.



You give Popovich and NBA 'science' too much credit. The only player that the Spurs have had incredible success with in terms of the physical aspect is Leonard. And it's probably more about him being a physical freak than anything else. They'd didn't develop his lateral strength -- he had it coming in. Throughout the years a constant for them is that Ginobili and Parker will ALWAYS miss games due to some injury or other. Some BS injury. Maybe, just maybe, their staff is not 'training' them correctly. And it's not like Duncan remained some freak as he got older. In fact, Ginobili is better at his present age than Duncan was. And Parker probably will be in a wheelchair when he gets to his late 30's. Problem with the NBA (and other sports) is that they don't take their time and do not develop overall body symmetry. If you have it, you're not getting hurt. Perfect example of this is Greg Oden: one of his legs was slightly shorter than the other. Rather than trying to straighten him out, which would've required a lot of work over a long period of time, they went the surgery route and made him useless. He pretty much admitted this in some article I recently read.

HalvOnHorseracing
03-22-2017, 10:35 PM
From personal and anecdotal experience, for humans I'd say a lot of injuries are the result of (1) being tired, (2) doing something beyond your skills and abilities, or (3) some sort of fluke.

Ski areas talk about more people getting injured trying to make that last run of the day, or skiing on a slope beyond their ability. How many turned ankles are just the result of a bad step?

There are clearly repetitive use injuries. When you hit a certain age it's amazing how many people you know that have hip replacements. And if you look at professional athletes, many of them suffer physically as the age.

I've not seen statistics, but anecdotally it seems horses more often get injured late in a race (when they are tired) or early (when they are making maximum exertion to get into a race) or on a fluke (clipping heels) or because of the track condition (Del Mar turf 2014). There are also injuries that are surely the result of things like microfractures going undetected and turning into something worse.

My offhanded opinion is that use of powerful pain killers is a very, very minor part of the picture. They are too easily detectible to be of much value. Trainers have a pretty significant probability of getting popped for flunixin if they only use a 24-hour withdrawal time, and that hardly falls into the category of powerful pain killer. However, my other offhanded opinion is that horses go into serious training too soon, and there is one big reason why - the Kentucky Derby. If you have a horse that shows any sort of precocity and ability, you're thinking Derby. I understand you are never going to change the importance of the Derby, but I would say most horses should wait until very late in their two year old season or early in their three year old season before starting serious training. Just a lot of stress on an immature horse.

dilanesp
03-23-2017, 12:17 AM
My offhanded opinion is that use of powerful pain killers is a very, very minor part of the picture. They are too easily detectible to be of much value. Trainers have a pretty significant probability of getting popped for flunixin if they only use a 24-hour withdrawal time, and that hardly falls into the category of powerful pain killer. However, my other offhanded opinion is that horses go into serious training too soon, and there is one big reason why - the Kentucky Derby. If you have a horse that shows any sort of precocity and ability, you're thinking Derby. I understand you are never going to change the importance of the Derby, but I would say most horses should wait until very late in their two year old season or early in their three year old season before starting serious training. Just a lot of stress on an immature horse.

You act as if all painkillers are illegal. Bute is legal.

HalvOnHorseracing
03-23-2017, 09:40 AM
You act as if all painkillers are illegal. Bute is legal.

No, I don't act as if all painkillers are illegal, and certainly anyone familiar with my work wouldn't question my knowledge of the RMTC allowable substances.

I qualified my statement with "powerful" which perhaps I wrongly assumed people would understand meant something like opiods or numbing agents like lidocaine. The third sentence of that paragraph references the legal therapeutic flunixin (banamine) which along with phenylbutazone are allowable NSAIDs. Banamine and bute would be to morphine as tylenol and ibuprofen are to oxycodone. Banamine and bute are not "powerful" painkillers. They are meant for relatively minor pain, and do not mask the pain like lidocaine would.

But I realize that I can't assume everyone knows the difference between mild and powerful analgesics and anesthetics so I'll be clearer in the future.

So the new sentence would be, My offhanded opinion is that while the use of some NSAIDs is legal under RMTC guidelines, use of powerful pain killers, like morphine, or numbing agents like lidocaine, is a very, very minor part of the picture.

Thomas Roulston
03-23-2017, 01:21 PM
Look at what has happened to the Derby prep races: The Wood Memorial, for example, has gone from two weeks before the Derby to three weeks before the Derby to four weeks before the Derby.

The reason for this is that horses that are bred for speed are more, how shall I say, delicate than horses that are bred for stamina. Injuries to horses have become both more frequent and more severe for the same reason.

We need to Make Horse Racing Great Again (clears throat).

PhantomOnTour
03-23-2017, 02:15 PM
I disagree with any analogy btw HorseRacing and Basketball with regard to rest.

NBA players are being rested because the playoffs are long and grueling.
All series are now best of seven & the refs let em grind a little more.
Season is too long and so are the playoffs.

Horses are resting because (in my opinion) the breed is being weakened by drugs and the constant speed influence in the breeding shed. The breed is simply less durable than it was 25yrs ago

HalvOnHorseracing
03-23-2017, 02:50 PM
Look at what has happened to the Derby prep races: The Wood Memorial, for example, has gone from two weeks before the Derby to three weeks before the Derby to four weeks before the Derby.

The reason for this is that horses that are bred for speed are more, how shall I say, delicate than horses that are bred for stamina. Injuries to horses have become both more frequent and more severe for the same reason.

We need to Make Horse Racing Great Again (clears throat).

I'm not sure it is that simple. A number of years ago the prep races were an integral part of training. Trainers like Woody Stephens would focus on one particular race and would use a combination of training and prep races to get his horse ready. And he could have cared less about winning the preps. Now, trainers are so adept at getting horses ready from training alone, their prep race schedule is minimal. I also think trainers don't want to shoot the horse's wad by peaking too close to the main event.

It's kind of a chicken and egg problem. Did horses become delicate so trainers raced them less, or did they race less and people assumed it was a result of getting becoming delicate? Other factors, like purse size influence the number of times a horse ran. Forego won around $2 million in his career and that lasted 7 years. Now, top three year olds can exceed that by the end of their season. Maiden races at Saratoga have purses almost as big as stakes races in the 70's. Trainers don't have to start horses as often to make plenty of money, and they've also adopted the attitude that if you only have so many bullets in the gun, you don't waste them on a non-winners this year allowance race to get ready for a stakes.

I don't think we're ever going back to a time where the best horses raced 14 times a year. Secretariat raced eight times as a two year old. That would be unimaginable today, but I don't know that horses were that much sounder in 1973.

In the days of the four-milers, they were running two minute+ miles. Probably a lot less stress at those pace levels. European runners with American breeding show "stamina" but they also only are under maximum exertion for the last quarter of a mile. I'd concede the overt evidence points to a weakening of the breed, but I'd say the times have changed enough that I'm not sure the strength of the breed has diminished as much as people think.

classhandicapper
03-23-2017, 03:14 PM
You give Popovich and NBA 'science' too much credit. The only player that the Spurs have had incredible success with in terms of the physical aspect is Leonard. And it's probably more about him being a physical freak than anything else. They'd didn't develop his lateral strength -- he had it coming in. Throughout the years a constant for them is that Ginobili and Parker will ALWAYS miss games due to some injury or other. Some BS injury. Maybe, just maybe, their staff is not 'training' them correctly. And it's not like Duncan remained some freak as he got older. In fact, Ginobili is better at his present age than Duncan was. And Parker probably will be in a wheelchair when he gets to his late 30's. Problem with the NBA (and other sports) is that they don't take their time and do not develop overall body symmetry. If you have it, you're not getting hurt. Perfect example of this is Greg Oden: one of his legs was slightly shorter than the other. Rather than trying to straighten him out, which would've required a lot of work over a long period of time, they went the surgery route and made him useless. He pretty much admitted this in some article I recently read.

I don't think Popovich was talking about player development. He was talking about winning championships he might not have won had he played his players more minutes per game and in more games. He's also talking about the typical decline we see for players based on age compared to what his own players experienced. Statistically, many guys start declining in their late 20s and it accelerates into the 30s. This has been studied to death. He keeps his players productive per minute into their 30s.

We have a possible example of what he's talking about recently.

Towards the end of the season last year the Golden State Warriors were playing their best players a lot of minutes because they were chasing the single season win record. The smartest basketball gambler I know was screaming that they were making a mistake and should be resting their players. In the opinion of some people, they were a little flat in the championship series and lost despite no playoff games being on a back to back. They aren't going to make that mistake again.

Personally, I see a similar pattern with horses. Many seem to last longer and continue developing if you don't run them into the ground. Top colts get retired quickly. However, for example, we often see mares way over the top and declining by 4 or 5. Rachel was arguably not as good at 4 as at 3. Zenyatta fired close to her A race at 6 after 19 starts. They raced her that way to keep her fresh for BC races and she wound up lasting a lot longer than most mares.

The problem is that's just one example of anecdotal evidence from observation. I would like to see it studied to death like they've studied basketball.

dilanesp
03-23-2017, 05:16 PM
No, I don't act as if all painkillers are illegal, and certainly anyone familiar with my work wouldn't question my knowledge of the RMTC allowable substances.

I qualified my statement with "powerful" which perhaps I wrongly assumed people would understand meant something like opiods or numbing agents like lidocaine. The third sentence of that paragraph references the legal therapeutic flunixin (banamine) which along with phenylbutazone are allowable NSAIDs. Banamine and bute would be to morphine as tylenol and ibuprofen are to oxycodone. Banamine and bute are not "powerful" painkillers. They are meant for relatively minor pain, and do not mask the pain like lidocaine would.

But I realize that I can't assume everyone knows the difference between mild and powerful analgesics and anesthetics so I'll be clearer in the future.

So the new sentence would be, My offhanded opinion is that while the use of some NSAIDs is legal under RMTC guidelines, use of powerful pain killers, like morphine, or numbing agents like lidocaine, is a very, very minor part of the picture.

There's no distinction between "mild" and "powerful" pain killers with respect to the issue we are talking about here, injuries and how they affect how often a horse runs. The fact is, even a "mild" painkiller will OBVIOUSLY have the effect of allowing more injured and unsound horses to run. So ignoring the legal painkillers in declaring that painkillers can't have any relationship to why horses run less nowadays pretty much nullifies your point.

dilanesp
03-23-2017, 05:18 PM
Towards the end of the season last year the Golden State Warriors were playing their best players a lot of minutes because they were chasing the single season win record. The smartest basketball gambler I know was screaming that they were making a mistake and should be resting their players. In the opinion of some people, they were a little flat in the championship series and lost despite no playoff games being on a back to back. They aren't going to make that mistake again.

Honestly, there's a whole bunch of post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning in this. Other teams have set win records and won in the playoffs, and the Warriors were actually extremely unlucky to lose last year's Finals.

aaron
03-23-2017, 07:20 PM
The goal of about .1% of horses is to win BC races and Eclipse Awards. What about the rest?

I don't think Bobby Frankel started out thinking spacing was necessary. He adapted his methods as Lasix became more and more prevalent. He was ahead of the curve. Trainers have probably gone overboard, but they didn't just start racing less for no reason.

Frankel was also influenced by the sheets. Today,I think many trainers are sheet users and for that reason favor significant time between races.
Years ago Woody Stephens won the Met Mile and Belmont Stakes on 5 day rest, then rested Conquestor Cielo till Saratoga and that ended up his last race.

classhandicapper
03-24-2017, 09:57 AM
Honestly, there's a whole bunch of post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning in this. Other teams have set win records and won in the playoffs, and the Warriors were actually extremely unlucky to lose last year's Finals.

The thing is, there has been data collected and studied by math gurus to back the assertion even if it's more complex than that single reason.

I've never even seen data from the sheets players to back their assertions about spacing. Most of the data I have seen or compiled myself suggested that sharp horses are better off coming back quickly, not the other way around. But I've never studied the long term impacts. I just have observation.

Robert Fischer
03-24-2017, 10:29 AM
The NBA media team and ad-revenue people are very bright.

We have the most marketable players concentrated on less than a handful of the teams.

The NBA's most interesting case study is the New York Knicks, who maximize their marketability of location, and has pulled off the magic-trick of being the league's most valuable franchise, while operating completely separate from worrying about any semblance of on-court quality. The Knicks are 100% marketing and market position, and anyone studying the NBA can learn about the league from this.

The season is basically decided some 30-40? games into the 82 game season stretched to the max, and then the 'Playoffs' renew interest as a premier ad-revenue vehicle.

Because of the dynamics of the league, the money men prefer that the most marketable players and teams are not rested in away games, -particularly away games which depend upon the marketable teams and players visiting to draw ticket sales and ratings/marketability.

The NBA is definitely a an apple/orange contrast from Horse Racing. Horse Racing has no such burden of multi-billion dollar media revenue concerns.

dilanesp
03-24-2017, 12:55 PM
The NBA media team and ad-revenue people are very bright.

We have the most marketable players concentrated on less than a handful of the teams.

The NBA's most interesting case study is the New York Knicks, who maximize their marketability of location, and has pulled off the magic-trick of being the league's most valuable franchise, while operating completely separate from worrying about any semblance of on-court quality. The Knicks are 100% marketing and market position, and anyone studying the NBA can learn about the league from this.

The season is basically decided some 30-40? games into the 82 game season stretched to the max, and then the 'Playoffs' renew interest as a premier ad-revenue vehicle.

Because of the dynamics of the league, the money men prefer that the most marketable players and teams are not rested in away games, -particularly away games which depend upon the marketable teams and players visiting to draw ticket sales and ratings/marketability.

The NBA is definitely a an apple/orange contrast from Horse Racing. Horse Racing has no such burden of multi-billion dollar media revenue concerns.

The Cubs and Clippers were also examples of this in baseball and basketball, although both of them finally did improve.