Ortiz makes Zero effort to get lead and loses with massive show wagers.

[Andy Asaro]

Did everything he could to not get the lead with Terra Promessa. There is no explanation for what just happened other than it was intentional IMO. There should be an investigation into that one. I don't buy it for a minute. That was my reaction live.

7 $26.20 $9.40 $19.60
6 . $5.60 $12.40
3 . . $45.40

[EMD4ME]

Did everything he could to not get the lead with Terra Promessa. There is no explanation for what just happened other than it was intentional IMO. There should be an investigation into that one. I don't buy it for a minute. That was my reaction live.

7 $26.20 $9.40 $19.60
6 . $5.60 $12.40
3 . . $45.40



A lot of cash money to be made there in the show pool....More than a winner's share of the pot, nevermind the jockey's share of the pot...


No one will ever care, look or even ask a question BUT even if one did, the answer will be: I decided to rate her, she just didn't fire.

Anyone with 3 brain cells can see and know what he did out there.

For shits and giggles, I want everyone to just freeze the replay right under the wire the first time. His poor horse's nose was facing the ground!!!!

Into the clubhouse turn, the poor horses nose was making a sharp left hand turn (while being choked to death).

In other words, usual Ortiz bullshit. Doesn't matter if it's Jose or Irad.

Who can forget Jose's 4 horse field, off the BOARD job at AQU last year on Constellation? She only won a GRADE 1 next time out ..........

[Andy Asaro]

A lot of cash money to be made there in the show pool....More than a winner's share of the pot, nevermind the jockey's share of the pot...


No one will ever care, look or even ask a question BUT even if one did, the answer will be: I decided to rate her, she just didn't fire.

Anyone with 3 brain cells can see and know what he did out there.

For shits and giggles, I want everyone to just freeze the replay right under the wire the first time. His poor horse's nose was facing the ground!!!!

Into the clubhouse turn, the poor horses nose was making a sharp left hand turn (while being choked to death).

In other words, usual Ortiz bullshit. Doesn't matter if it's Jose or Irad.

Who can forget Jose's 4 horse field, off the BOARD job at AQU last year?

Gotta bombard Oaklawn with phone calls.

Just watched it again. No way was it on the up and up.

[EMD4ME]

Gotta bombard Oaklawn with phone calls.

Are you kidding? I'm SO happy Jose and Irad were out of town today and other days.

Racing at AQU's inner has been near 100% honest.

They can stay there forever as far as I'm concerned.


I see a major common denominator. Jose and Irad have done some amazingly terrible work on MONSTER ASSMUSSEN chalks.

They don't seem to care to screw with his horses.

[Andy Asaro]

Quote from Ortiz “She just didn’t show up,”

http://www.drf.com/news/streamline-surprises-azeri-terra-promessa-struggles-fifth

:lol:

[EMD4ME]

Quote from Ortiz “She just didn’t show up,”

http://www.drf.com/news/streamline-surprises-azeri-terra-promessa-struggles-fifth

:lol:

TOLD YOU! :lol::lol::lol:

[EMD4ME]

I love how the article says:


Ortiz didn't blame the loss on the trip :pound::pound::pound::lol::lol::lol:

Of course HE DIDN'T, he was the orchestrator of the loss, VIA THE TRIP!!!!

I sometimes swear I'm watching and reading WWE

[JustRalph]

I love how the article says:


Ortiz didn't blame the loss on the trip :pound::pound::pound::lol::lol::lol:

Of course HE DIDN'T, he was the orchestrator of the loss, VIA THE TRIP!!!!

I sometimes swear I'm watching and reading WWE

WWE has more fans by a huge margin

[EMD4ME]

WWE has more fans by a huge margin

If Asmussen is interviewed and he said I asked him to lead, IMHO, a jock pulling that shit, should be banned for life, with no opportunity for reinstatement.

If Asmussen wanted him to choke down and rate, he should come out and say that.

This one, like many others, looks so brutal to swallow as a fan of the integrity of this game.

If Asmussen left the riding to Irad, then he gets what he deserves. An off the board run. Irad is generally a passive rider but wink wink, when he has a true speed, he somehow finds ways to not lead....

[Andy Asaro]

Can't attach the PP's for some reason. Should have cleared easily at 1-5

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Yeah, I guess I'll stick my neck, out.

It wasn't that bad.

She didn't get the lead, nor was she really expected to do so. From there, she was boxed in into the clubhouse turn and then throughout the entire backside.

She got a little bit of room to run, and the hole closed. From there, she didn't have anything.

If you can read a PP, and watch previous races, you'd know she was far from being a 1/5 favorite in that field. Hell, she had been beaten by the nobody :1: Miss Mo Kelly just 3 back as dead chalk. The :1: was 36-1 today.

She didn't get an easy lead on the :5: and :7: today. Easy to see the :4: getting to the front and compromising her. Surely a local jock in JK Court was in cahoots with Irad, right?

[EMD4ME]

Yeah, I guess I'll stick my neck, out.

It wasn't that bad.

She didn't get the lead, nor was she really expected to do so. From there, she was boxed in into the clubhouse turn and then throughout the entire backside.

She got a little bit of room to run, and the hole closed. From there, she didn't have anything.

If you can read a PP, and watch previous races, you'd know she was far from being a 1/5 favorite in that field. Hell, she had been beaten by the nobody :1: Miss Mo Kelly just 3 back as dead chalk. The :1: was 36-1 today.

She didn't get an easy lead on the :5: and :7: today. Easy to see the :4: getting to the front and compromising her. Surely a local jock in JK Court was in cahoots with Irad, right?

When a horse's head is torn down so low that her eyes can see her breasts, we have a problem.

When TFUS has the horse leading by a few lengths, the horse could've lead by 3 if he didn't choke her out and she sat a choked down to death buried 3rd inside, we have a problem.

When any non novice can see a jock just sucking the life out of a horse, we have a problem.

When we have a jock's knees almost locked in a straight position as he's choking the life out of his horse, we have a problem.

What happened from the 5/8 on was TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. That horse spent so much energy fighting for air for over 3/8, she had no shot to hit the board.

I know you want to play smart but my friend, I think you would agree, she was given no shot to win by the rider.

I agree, 1/5, no way, ESPECIALLY with that jock aboard.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

When a horse's head is torn down so low that her eyes can see her breasts, we have a problem.

When TFUS has the horse leading by a few lengths, the horse could've lead by 3 if he didn't choke her out and she sat a choked down to death buried 3rd inside, we have a problem.

When any non novice can see a jock just sucking the life out of a horse, we have a problem.

When we have a jock's knees almost locked in a straight position as he's choking the life out of his horse, we have a problem.

What happened from the 5/8 on was TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. That horse spent so much energy fighting for air for over 3/8, she had no shot to hit the board.

I know you want to play smart but my friend, I think you would agree, she was given no shot to win by the rider.

I agree, 1/5, no way, ESPECIALLY with that jock aboard.

So, in your eyes, you expect a full and easy break, an easy get to the lead, and a walk from there.

Well, yes, that is how 1/5's usually happen.

I don't see a horrid break. I don't see the drawing back till the clubhouse turn. Now, the :2: could have argued the :4: cost her a placing, but what was the point when the :4: didn't hit the board?

Court is a respected rider at Oaklawn. He could see as well as anybody that if he didn't get the lead on the :2:, his horse had no chance. He went out and got it, while shutting off the :2:.

For a guy that loves "race riding" in the stretch, how can you not like race riding in the early parts of a race? You can't have one without the other.

[EMD4ME]

So, in your eyes, you expect a full and easy break, an easy get to the lead, and a walk from there.

Well, yes, that is how 1/5's usually happen.

I don't see a horrid break. I don't see the drawing back till the clubhouse turn. Now, the :2: could have argued the :4: cost her a placing, but what was the point when the :4: didn't hit the board?

Court is a respected rider at Oaklawn. He could see as well as anybody that if he didn't get the lead on the :2:, his horse had no chance. He went out and got it, while shutting off the :2:.

For a guy that loves "race riding" in the stretch, how can you not like race riding in the early parts of a race? You can't have one without the other.

Then my friend, I suggest you rewatch the replay.

Horse broke well and 1st. 5 seconds into the race, IRAD starts pulling the reigns hard. Watch the horse's head (and mouth) 5 seconds into the race. Her mouth is almost wide open and her nose is directly facing the ground.

All this before the items you saw on the Clubhouse Turn.

If you can't see a jock, who took a lone speed from FIRST to a brutally choked and buried third, then I don't know what to tell you.

I do love race riding at all parts of a race. Glad you brought that up. Iherd's #1 herding tactic is to herd a field right out of the gate. He had ZERO interest in MAINTAINING HIS lead (his horse broke great and first) and ZERO interest in being his usual self (Herding and intimidating after the start).


Chee, I wonder why :lol::lol::lol: I have dozens of thousands of reasons why.

BTW, I didn't even know this race was running. I didn't even look at another track besides AQU today. I only know about it as my friend was screaming during the race for the 2 to run out (he bet to show on the 3 and 7).

What the heck does court or anyone else have to do with Irad's actions. Obviously the money was made betting against the 2 to show. No other jock mattered but the rider of the 2

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Then my friend, I suggest you rewatch the replay.

Horse broke well and 1st. 5 seconds into the race, IRAD starts pulling the reigns hard. Watch the horse's head (and mouth) 5 seconds into the race. Her mouth is almost wide open and her nose is directly facing the ground.

All this before the items you saw on the Clubhouse Turn.

If you can't see a jock, who took a lone speed from FIRST to a brutally choked and buried third, then I don't know what to tell you.

I do love race riding at all parts of a race. Glad you brought that up. Iherd's #1 herding tactic is to herd a field right out of the gate. He had ZERO interest in MAINTAINING HIS lead (his horse broke great and first) and ZERO interest in being his usual self (Herding and intimidating after the start).


Chee, I wonder why :lol::lol::lol: I have dozens of thousands of reasons why.

BTW, I didn't even know this race was running. I didn't even look at another track besides AQU today. I only know about it as my friend was screaming during the race for the 2 to run out (he bet to show on the 3 and 7).

What the heck does court or anyone else have to do with Irad's actions. Obviously the money was made betting against the 2 to show. No other jock mattered but the rider of the 2

Come on.

Watching the replay now. :2: had the lead out of the break for maybe 50 yards. :4: was sent, and then compromised her like I said. How you can't see that is beyond me.

Only time she was "choked" was when the :4: got in front and came in on her. I don't know how anybody can see anything different.

https://www.americasbestracing.net/races/2017-azeri-s

[EMD4ME]

Come on.

Watching the replay now. :2: had the lead out of the break for maybe 50 yards. :4: was sent, and then compromised her like I said. How you can't see that is beyond me.

Only time she was "choked" was when the :4: got in front and came in on her. I don't know how anybody can see anything different.

https://www.americasbestracing.net/races/2017-azeri-s

Buddy, if you can't see that the 2 deferred and was choked out TO MAKE SURE the 4 cleared, then I think this conversation should end now.

I like you.

[Prof.Factor]

I saw the race 100% exactly how EMD4ME describes.
It looked to me like he counted on being hemmed in.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

I saw the race 100% exactly how EMD4ME describes.
It looked to me like he counted on being hemmed in.

So.....,

Do we need an exact quote or interview from the trainer as to how/why Terra Promessa was ridden, even though anybody with an ounce of smarts knew she wouldn't be handed the lead and that the rail was dead so they would take back a bit?

[jimmyb]

Choke hold for sure. Terra Promessa had all kinds of room before and entering the first turn. No need to check the animal whatsoever.

[luisbe]

Choke hold for sure. Terra Promessa had all kinds of room before and entering the first turn. No need to check the animal whatsoever.
I couldn't agree more.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

I couldn't agree more.

Everybody in this thread had the :2: at 1/5 :lol:

I had the :7: at 12/1 :jump:

[EMD4ME]

Everybody in this thread had the :2: at 1/5 :lol:

I had the :7: at 12/1 :jump:

Bro, that's not the point of the thread. I'm seriously and sincerely happy you had the 7. That's great.


We are talking about a horse having $350,000 to show on it AND the jock completely making sure the horse had no shot to hit the board.

Makes you wonder why the jock would do that, doesn't it?

[jimmyb]

The head on shows it more clearly. Ortiz had a two horse lane on the rail and chose not to take it.

[EMD4ME]

The head on shows it more clearly. Ortiz had a two horse lane on the rail and chose not to take it.

DING DING DING

[rsetup]

As a race watching horseplayer, the FIRST thing one needs to LEARN/UNDERSTAND/INTUIT is that horses that get perfect trips that are disguised as PSEUDO troubled trips, as the NOVICES would interpret them, need to be thrown out.

Here we are, 2017, and, it seems, most people here still don't get it.

The premise being put forth is that if the :2: had gone to the lead she would've beaten a horse, the :7:, that got a significantly worse trip than she did. But, if the :2: fell on her face after drafting the ENTIRE RACE, practically, then how the **** does she win when if she actually has to do some running?

This isn't bull ring racing. First out of the gate doesn't guarantee a horse a win. And the argument that horses that don't make leads would've won the race is getting real, real OLD.

[EMD4ME]

Ladies and Gents, when Irad is "on his game ;)" and is hellbent on winning with a speed horse, his body language is totally different. He actually pumps, herds from the gate, (REAL BAD), he times a spiral into the turn so his horse's right part of it's ass bumps the "pressing" horse as he spirals inwards into the clubhouse turn, he looks around and his knees are 180 from where they were there.


If they ever created vidoes on how to make sure a "$350,000 show on this horse" speed horse runs out, this was chapter 1.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Bro, that's not the point of the thread. I'm seriously and sincerely happy you had the 7. That's great.


We are talking about a horse having $350,000 to show on it AND the jock completely making sure the horse had no shot to hit the board.

Makes you wonder why the jock would do that, doesn't it?

Bro...

I just don't see it. Everybody and their dog before the race said the :2: would give up the lead because she didn't need to have it. If she got it fine, but others KNEW they had to press her so she wouldn't walk.

She actually ran TOO hard into the clubhouse turn in which she had to get checked. So Irad choked, and then checked? How is that even possible?

I get that some guy(s) laid down huge money to show. Get better at what you are doing, or at least "pay off" the jock that was supposedly "paid off".

[jimmyb]

Ortiz is the Boston Strangler incarnate.

[EMD4ME]

As a race watching horseplayer, the FIRST thing one needs to LEARN/UNDERSTAND/INTUIT is that horses that get perfect trips that are disguised as PSEUDO troubled trips, as the NOVICES would interpret them, need to be thrown out.

Here we are, 2017, and, it seems, most people here still don't get it.

The premise being put forth is that if the :2: had gone to the lead she would've beaten a horse, the :7:, that got a significantly worse trip than she did. But, if the :2: fell on her face after drafting the ENTIRE RACE, practically, then how the **** does she win when if she actually has to do some running?

This isn't bull ring racing. First out of the gate doesn't guarantee a horse a win. And the argument that horses that don't make leads would've won the race is getting real, real OLD.

I can respect what you're trying to say.

BUT...

1) I don't know if she would've beat the 7 but she would've had the best possible chance to do so. Looking at those 2, I'd say the 7 would've won. 2 would've 95% hit the board if he simply let her lead, she would've ran comfortable and loose. How do I know that? You can tell just by how the race developed into the clubhouse turn.

2) Distribution of energy. How do horses run out of the money and far back? A) No talent B) Unfit C) wrong surface etc etc skip to M) TERRIBLE DISTRIBUTION OF ENERGY RESERVES.

This horse was made uncomfortable, SPENT A TON OF ENERGY To be dragged back off a no flow race. She had no energy reserves left by the time they hit the 1/2. You get placed in a bear hug by a wrestler for 40 seconds and let's see how fast you can run......

Common man, you're kidding right? You think she could've RALLIED after being rank and choked out for 3/8's? Irad could put the hammer lock on Forego and make him be unable to close as well. Irad is THAT talented. Believe me.

Been seeing it for 4 years and everyone called me psycho on here. Now, we have Jose with Constellation, Irad with this one. At least there's some exposure out there.

[EMD4ME]

Bro...

I just don't see it. Everybody and their dog before the race said the :2: would give up the lead because she didn't need to have it. If she got it fine, but others KNEW they had to press her so she wouldn't walk.

She actually ran TOO hard into the clubhouse turn in which she had to get checked. So Irad choked, and then checked? How is that even possible?

I get that some guy(s) laid down huge money to show. Get better at what you are doing, or at least "pay off" the jock that was supposedly "paid off".

Looking at the PPs, the rider and the last race, whoever bet this horse to show, DESERVED to lose it all.

That was a stupid bet.


BUT, the bridgejumper never had a prayer as it looked like his/her money was earmarked for a new destination before the gate opened :lol::lol:

[ReplayRandall]

Seriously, how many huge odds-on favorites have you seen not hit the board??...There have been quite a few in recent years, but the only time it's called a conspiracy is when some nut-job puts down embezzled money from the company coffers and runs into a big fav that has trouble, gets a bad ride or just doesn't fire.....It's only a conspiracy when a bridge-jumper goes down in the show pool?.....Enough already.

[jimmyb]

Terra Promessa also had a decisive early and middle pace advantage according to PP's. Not saying she would have won as the 5 and 7 had better late numbers. Maybe Ortiz was confused, or maybe it was because he had never ridden the animal. All the same, he had every opportunity to do what the animal has always done and clearly wanted to do this race.

[cj]

Can't attach the PP's for some reason. Should have cleared easily at 1-5

Here is the TimeformUS PP, she is the 2.

[cj]

Everybody in this thread had the :2: at 1/5 :lol:

I had the :7: at 12/1 :jump:

I knew it was just a matter of time reading this thread until LDH dropped the old redboard hammer and put you guys in your places.

[EMD4ME]

I knew it was just a matter of time reading this thread until LDH dropped the old redboard hammer and put you guys in your places.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::pound::pound:

I don't know, something tells me he's emptying the beer cans as he types away :lol::lol::lol: (I like ya LDH! No harm meant ;))

[Andy Asaro]

Here is the TimeformUS PP, she is the 2.

She definitely should have cleared. I'm guessing her numbers are through the roof when she cleared in last two at Oaklawn.

[cj]

She definitely should have cleared. I'm guessing her numbers are through the roof when she cleared in last two at Oaklawn.

The pace today was also slow, only a 107 opening quarter. Other than her first start off the layoff she is usually much faster than that early, including 135 last out.

[EMD4ME]

The pace today was also slow, only a 107 opening quarter. Other than her first start off the layoff she is usually much faster than that early, including 135 last out.

135 VS 107. How many lengths is that CJ (to the 1st Q) in a 9F race?

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Seriously, how many huge odds-on favorites have you seen not hit the board??...There have been quite a few in recent years, but the only time it's called a conspiracy is when some nut-job puts down embezzled money from the company coffers and runs into a big fav that has trouble, gets a bad ride or just doesn't fire.....It's only a conspiracy when a bridge-jumper goes down in the show pool?.....Enough already.

I don't get it.

First and foremost, she had ZERO business being 1/5.

As pointed out earlier, she lost to the the no-chancer :1: just 3 back. And with a different jock. She can run a clunker. Hell, she ran 2 in row. Reality is, she is good on her best, but can be lapped on any given day.

If anybody actually did any work, or any study, they would know she wasn't a sure fire leader. Nor did she need it. She whooped the :4: and :5: before. As an owner/trainer/jockey of the :4: or :5:, you just wanna sit back and allow her to kick your brains in again?

This is Horse Racing 102. Barely above 101.

But hey, this horse that hasn't even ran the 3rd best speed rating in the entire field in her lifetime is going to go off at 1/5, and she should just go to the lead and romp? :lol:

[Lemon Drop Husker]

The pace today was also slow, only a 107 opening quarter. Other than her first start off the layoff she is usually much faster than that early, including 135 last out.

And 3 back?

[picojim]

Asmussen seemed upset with the ride

Added Steve Asmussen, trainer of Terra Promessa, "That was a debacle. You've got to get along with her, you just do. Can't fight with her. She knows who she wants to be, and that was not good."

[ReplayRandall]

Asmussen seemed upset with the ride

Added Steve Asmussen, trainer of Terra Promessa, "That was a debacle. You've got to get along with her, you just do. Can't fight with her. She knows who she wants to be, and that was not good."
It's always convenient to throw the rider under the bus, deserved or not, making the owner happy as well...:rolleyes:

[cj]

And 3 back?

The first race off a long layoff? I think it was 107. I shut my computer down already. I don't think anyone is arguing she was a legit 1-5 horse. They are arguing she shouldn't have been choked back of the slow pace. Trainer seems to agree, no?

[EMD4ME]

Asmussen seemed upset with the ride

Added Steve Asmussen, trainer of Terra Promessa, "That was a debacle. You've got to get along with her, you just do. Can't fight with her. She knows who she wants to be, and that was not good."

If we had a governing body, he would be banned for life.

But in US horse racing, he's free to do it again tomorrow, literally!

[Lemon Drop Husker]

The first race off a long layoff? I think it was 107. I shut my computer down already. I don't think anyone is arguing she was a legit 1-5 horse. They are arguing she shouldn't have been choked back of the slow pace. Trainer seems to agree, no?

Excellent. Find us another 1/5 that will most assuredly get the lead.:popcorn:

[cj]

Asmussen seemed upset with the ride

Added Steve Asmussen, trainer of Terra Promessa, "That was a debacle. You've got to get along with her, you just do. Can't fight with her. She knows who she wants to be, and that was not good."

Maybe he should have stuck with the regular rider instead of putting a known strangler on a speed horse. I have no sympathy for him in that regard.

[EMD4ME]

Excellent. Find us another 1/5 that will most assuredly get the lead.:popcorn:

What part do you not understand? I agree, poor play at 1/5. The ride was putrid. Irad made sure the horse was not comfortable. He subtly placed a choppy hammerlock 5 seconds into the race, made the horse rank and butchered the horse. It was a subtle butcher job.

This is about a lot of things but most importantly, to me, it's about Irad.

The $350,000 to show , the 1/5 aspect are just ancillary. Irad and his ride, especially after hearing what the trainer said, is the concern/focus.

Let me play psychic again......

Someone will chime in and say: That's how Irad rides, passive. He likes to save horse etc etc etc. This one turned out to look bad. I bet you he wishes he had this one back blah blah blah.

AND I CALL BULLSHIT to that someone before they even say it.

When you watch enough WWE, you already know the surprise ending coming up :lol: Same here....

[Mulerider]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::pound::pound:

I don't know, something tells me he's emptying the beer cans as he types away :lol::lol::lol: (I like ya LDH! No harm meant ;))

I can confirm LDH was on the 7. He and i were in the same tournament.

mule

[EMD4ME]

Maybe he should have stuck with the regular rider instead of putting a known strangler on a speed horse. I have no sympathy for him in that regard.

I agree. Why anyone would ride Irad on that speed horse, in a Stakes race ...:bang:

But Steve is much less at fault. Irad should be looked at and looked at hard.

[EMD4ME]

I can confirm LDH was on the 7. He and i were in the same tournament.

mule

I appreciate that Mule. I don't doubt that for a moment and he made a great play. That's not to be disputed. I like LDH and always want him to crush.

I'm more concerned with ethics and integrity in this case.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

What part do you not understand? I agree, poor play at 1/5. The ride was putrid. Irad made sure the horse was not comfortable. He subtly placed a choppy hammerlock 5 seconds into the race, made the horse rank and butchered the horse. It was a subtle butcher job.

This is about a lot of things but most importantly, to me, it's about Irad.

The $350,000 to show , the 1/5 aspect are just ancillary. Irad and his ride, especially after hearing what the trainer said, is the concern/focus.

Let me play psychic again......

Someone will chime in and say: That's how Irad rides, passive. He likes to save horse etc etc etc. This one turned out to look bad. I bet you he wishes he had this one back blah blah blah.

When you watch enough WWE, you already know the surprise ending coming up :lol: Same here....

If Terra Promessa is all legit, certainly those backing this "shit ride" will be laying mortgages on her to show next out, right? (Of course, Irad won't be riding, cause he chokes.). ;)

[EMD4ME]

If Terra Promessa is all legit, certainly those backing this "shit ride" will be laying mortgages on her to show next out, right? (Of course, Irad won't be riding, cause he chokes.). ;)

HA HA HA . No way buddy. That was a putrid bet at 1/5 or 1/1 to win, show??? Never on a speed horse like that. Never.

I get your point though. Hope you see mine (Irad). I'm done here.

Go get em tomorrow buddy!

[Bata]

OA lot of cash money to be made there in the show pool....More than a winner's share of the pot, nevermind the jockey's share of the pot..


.One thing is for sure ORTIZ gave rhe horse a terrible ride(( maybe it was the trainers instructions,or maybe the mafia told him to stiff the horse or else))
But to say he did it intentionally,so he can cash in on the show pool,is to put it mildly outrageous,how much more than the winners share you think he could've made,and besides is it worth it to jeopardize his career and get on the bad side of a trainer like ASMUSSEN, as everybody knows horses in short fields that layover their fields on paper,attract these huge show bets,what the bridge jumpers and the public forgets is that these horses nearly all of the time come into these races off of new tops, or 2 or 3 big efforts in a row that's why they look good on paper,friends horses are not machines,look at INSIDE INFORM @ GULF today C.A layed over the field but she was coming off 2 big efforts luckily for the bridge jumpers it wasn't a short field she still had a lot to show on her,
Guess what she run out too,let's blame the jockey she was wide.

[SuperPickle]

Maybe he should have stuck with the regular rider instead of putting a known strangler on a speed horse. I have no sympathy for him in that regard.

That's the best way to sum it up. Santana certainly would not have ridden the horse that way.

Look it was a painfully crappy ride. All young riders suffer from the idea of trying to get too cute. Irad has a huge habit of doing things like this. Mike Smith on the other hand has always said when he knows he has the best animal his goal is to get them to the lead ASAP because things like this happen the longer you wait.

That being said EMD and Andy's notion that there's something criminal is silly. It's a crappy ride. There were a couple hundred of them today. I have no more sympathy for the $350k bet on her than I have for the people who got crappy rides on other horses.

And of course hyperbole EMD showed up. Yes, let's start giving lifetime suspensions for crappy rides. Lets do it.

[EMD4ME]

That's the best way to sum it up. Santana certainly would not have ridden the horse that way.

Look it was a painfully crappy ride. All young riders suffer from the idea of trying to get too cute. Irad has a huge habit of doing things like this. Mike Smith on the other hand has always said when he knows he has the best animal his goal is to get them to the lead ASAP because things like this happen the longer you wait.

That being said EMD and Andy's notion that there's something criminal is silly. It's a crappy ride. There were a couple hundred of them today. I have no more sympathy for the $350k bet on her than I have for the people who got crappy rides on other horses.

And of course hyperbole EMD showed up. Yes, let's start giving lifetime suspensions for crappy rides. Lets do it.

A jock could come out and say I stiffed 14 horses last week and bet on them (losing) and YOU would say EMD photoshopped the video :bang:

No hyperbole on this one. Lone speed. Choked out. Trainer Pissed. Tons of opportunity to cash on horse running out. ALL FACTS.

You scream Coincidence from the Executive floor (9th floor)

Amazing how much coincidence always follows the Ortiz boys. :rolleyes:

[ronsmac]

Yeah, I guess I'll stick my neck, out.

It wasn't that bad.

She didn't get the lead, nor was she really expected to do so. From there, she was boxed in into the clubhouse turn and then throughout the entire backside.

She got a little bit of room to run, and the hole closed. From there, she didn't have anything.

If you can read a PP, and watch previous races, you'd know she was far from being a 1/5 favorite in that field. Hell, she had been beaten by the nobody :1: Miss Mo Kelly just 3 back as dead chalk. The :1: was 36-1 today.

She didn't get an easy lead on the :5: and :7: today. Easy to see the :4: getting to the front and compromising her. Surely a local jock in JK Court was in cahoots with Irad, right?You've got to be kidding.

[AltonKelsey]

I feel remiss in my stalking of emd for while and this is a good op.

I dont know this filly from adam and hadn't seen any of her races.

Watched the replay . Yes, Ortiz has the horse under something of a hold, and basically gets cut off into first turn. Never comfortable or clear after that. Then no horse in the stretch.


Now, here's the fun part.

Watch Santana in the previous win.

SAME HOLD out of the gate, but that time got clear easily .

I don't care what the trainer said, unless he gave instructions to send from the inside and get the lead , then you have to think it was the horse not being up to snuff and a bad circumstance (maybe the other riders had a better plan),

As for the imbeciles betting to show.

[SandyW]

I know quite a few players that had the exacta 7-6 in this race, as for myself I hit the pick-3 that ended in the 8th race with the 1/2 shot that gave me a pick-3 payoff of $773. My ticket read 7,9/2,6,7/2. In the 6th race I used the 7 because of Lukas and the 9 because Jack Van Berg put Gary Stephens up. I could not find any other reason why Stephens was at Oaklawn today as Van Berg's other horse in the Rebel had zero chance to hit the board. In the 7th race I thought the 2,6,7 were the three best horses. In the 8th race I singled the 2 as he was by far the best bet of the day in my opinion.
Sometimes not very often we get lucky when we think out of the box.

[LottaKash]

II don't care what the trainer said, unless he gave instructions to send from the inside and get the lead , then you have to think it was the horse not being up to snuff and a bad circumstance (maybe the other riders had a better plan),

As for the imbeciles betting to show.

Often times we completely overlook the "flesh and blood" part of the racing equation(s)...:pout:

[Andy Asaro]

That's the best way to sum it up. Santana certainly would not have ridden the horse that way.

Look it was a painfully crappy ride. All young riders suffer from the idea of trying to get too cute. Irad has a huge habit of doing things like this. Mike Smith on the other hand has always said when he knows he has the best animal his goal is to get them to the lead ASAP because things like this happen the longer you wait.

That being said EMD and Andy's notion that there's something criminal is silly. It's a crappy ride. There were a couple hundred of them today. I have no more sympathy for the $350k bet on her than I have for the people who got crappy rides on other horses.

And of course hyperbole EMD showed up. Yes, let's start giving lifetime suspensions for crappy rides. Lets do it.

It wasn't only the 1-5 and the massive show pool. It was the start of the P5 as well. it's a 7 horse field and with 1-5 and she was out of the tri's and supers. Plenty of money to be made with Terra Promessa out of the super.

Besides that when something like this happens there should be an investigation. In some other countries the rider would have been fined and got time off.

Maybe it was a brain fart by Ortiz, but maybe it was more than that. Should be an investigation IMO

[SuperPickle]

A jock could come out and say I stiffed 14 horses last week and bet on them (losing) and YOU would say EMD photoshopped the video :bang:

No hyperbole on this one. Lone speed. Choked out. Trainer Pissed. Tons of opportunity to cash on horse running out. ALL FACTS.

You scream Coincidence from the Executive floor (9th floor)

Amazing how much coincidence always follows the Ortiz boys. :rolleyes:

You do get that you're the reason things like this go unchecked.

If you were reasonable and simply pointed out the need for an investigation you might get action. But you can't be that guy. You have to crazy EMD. "He should be suspended for life!!!!"

So no one bothers to do anything. Why? Because you can't be placated. You can't be appeased without getting everything you want. So people go "it's not worth it to bother."

It must be such a sad and lonely life to go through life with uncompromising, narrow takes on most things in life and realize the reason solutions never go anywhere because you yourself are such a pain to deal with. You're uncompromising. You're uncollaborative. And you're very proud of this. But you never acknowledge you get no results. It's like your letter to Chris Kay. On surface it's a huge fail because it got no results or action. He didn't even reply. But to you it was a great letter because you went all EMD on him. And that's your goal. To be EMD not to fix things.

It's like all your NYRA drama. You get nowhere on most of your issues. A reasonable, mentally healthy person would ask "given my lack of results maybe I need to reevaluate the way I come at people and problems and may be more open minded, compromising and collaborative."

Not you, Your only acted is to double harder. More Chris Kay is the devil. More ban the Ortizs. More race fixing allegations. More, more, more.

It's like your only solution when being EMD isn't affective is to be EVEN more EMD.

It's just be sad and exhausting. You have to understand why people like PA find you difficult to deal with.

[EMD4ME]

You do get that you're the reason things like this go unchecked.

If you were reasonable and simply pointed out the need for an investigation you might get action. But you can't be that guy. You have to crazy EMD. "He should be suspended for life!!!!"

So no one bothers to do anything. Why? Because you can't be placated. You can't be appeased without getting everything you want. So people go "it's not worth it to bother."

It must be such a sad and lonely life to go through life with uncompromising, narrow takes on most things in life and realize the reason solutions never go anywhere because you yourself are such a pain to deal with. You're uncompromising. You're uncollaborative. And you're very proud of this. But you never acknowledge you get no results. It's like your letter to Chris Kay. On surface it's a huge fail because it got no results or action. He didn't even reply. But to you it was a great letter because you went all EMD on him. And that's your goal. To be EMD not to fix things.

It's like all your NYRA drama. You get nowhere on most of your issues. A reasonable, mentally healthy person would ask "given my lack of results maybe I need to reevaluate the way I come at people and problems and may be more open minded, compromising and collaborative."

Not you, Your only acted is to double harder. More Chris Kay is the devil. More ban the Ortizs. More race fixing allegations. More, more, more.

It's like your only solution when being EMD isn't affective is to be EVEN more EMD.

It's just be sad and exhausting. You have to understand why people like PA find you difficult to deal with.


DARN IT. I already used the prior post on Alton or whatever his name is.

Uhhh. Wrong. I think you're starting to get a bit obsessed with me Super.

You're not even close to the truth but whatever makes you feel better.

I'm smart enough to ABSOLUTELY know it's NOT ME. It's them.

Yes, if a jock stiffs a horse, I want them banned for life, AND???

How is that NOT a positive. Whatever, I can't waste my breath on your royalty. You're too classy for me in your 9th floor booth looking down on the unwashed masses.

You have a great evening now ya Big Pickle :)

[Andy Asaro]

PP's

[AltonKelsey]

emd had time to cut and paste a youtube video, but did he follow my instructions and go back and look at the jockeys 'style' in the previous win?

Might have to do this if he did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK9odsWwfIo

[EMD4ME]

emd had time to cut and paste a youtube video, but did he follow my instructions and go back and look at the jockeys 'style' in the previous win?

Might have to do this if he did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK9odsWwfIo

Who is that??? What is his name anyway???? :confused:

[Andy Asaro]

Seems like the tri and super are a little short.

[picojim]

Who is that??? What is his name anyway???? :confused:

Jackie Gleason

[AltonKelsey]

Jackie Gleason

Can't believe he really didn't know that. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Not possible.

[EasyGoer89]

Can't believe he really didn't know that. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Not possible.

The only way EMD would know Jackie Gleason is if there was a tv on the first turn at Charlestown, this way, at the ripe age of 4, he could have snuck a peek at honeymooners episodes while crafting out those turn times! :headbanger:

[EMD4ME]

Seems like the tri and super are a little short.

How many runners, excuse me, COUGH COUGH, I mean LDH's are out there? :lol::lol::lol:

[EMD4ME]

The only way EMD would know Jackie Gleason is if there was a tv on the first turn at Charlestown, this way, at the ripe age of 4, he could have snuck a peek at honeymooners episodes while crafting out those turn times! :headbanger:

1st, welcome back easru89..... :ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

2nd, I know who that was......Point is, it DIDN'T MATTER WHAT HIS NAME WAS....:lol::lol::pound::pound:

I guess you guys/gals weren't Rock fans....

[EMD4ME]

To Mr. Pick 5, wherever you are....

I can't believe Alton fell for the 2nd one as well...

:pound::pound::pound::pound::lol::lol::lol::lol::l ol::lol::lol::lol::lol::pound::pound::pound:

[EMD4ME]

Ironically, I was watching an old Honeymooner's episode where ralph finds the briefcase with hundreds in it. Gave the cop $100 for the needy children....Sigh...the good ol days....

[Mr. Pick 5]

To Mr. Pick 5, wherever you are....

I can't believe Alton fell for the 2nd one as well...

:pound::pound::pound::pound::lol::lol::lol::lol::l ol::lol::lol::lol::lol::pound::pound::pound:

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol: im here....but im a bit upset with you in the stauffer thread :pound::pound::pound:

Absolutely fantastic rock utilization here though i must say

[AltonKelsey]

Nowhere does it say I fell for anything, on the contrary.

Misinterpreting reality seems to be pattern. As does icon abuse.

:lol::jump::lol::jump::cool::D:bang::bang:

[EMD4ME]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol: im here....but im a bit upset with you in the stauffer thread :pound::pound::pound:

Absolutely fantastic rock utilization here though i must say

I'm just trying to come out and surprise the MILLIONS and...............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFAkmkfcTfU













:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Mr. Pick 5]

I'm just trying to come out and surprise the MILLIONS and...............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFAkmkfcTfU













:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Im a bit confused, was he talking about the people, or your average yearly wagering totals? :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[ultracapper]

Bro, that's not the point of the thread. I'm seriously and sincerely happy you had the 7. That's great.


We are talking about a horse having $350,000 to show on it AND the jock completely making sure the horse had no shot to hit the board.

Makes you wonder why the jock would do that, doesn't it?

See what his brother's mount paid to show?

[EMD4ME]

Im a bit confused, was he talking about the people, or your average yearly wagering totals? :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

:pound::pound::pound:

IT DOESN'T MATTER.......Just kidding :ThmbUp:

I wish the OLD ROCK could be a TVG reporter and interviewed Irad and Steve seperately after that race....

I'd PAY per second on that one !

[EMD4ME]

See what his brother's mount paid to show?

I did only because my pal bet the 3 and 7 to show.

Plus those smart enough to bet at OP got an on track SHOW bonus !

[Mr. Pick 5]

:pound::pound::pound:

IT DOESN'T MATTER.......Just kidding :ThmbUp:

I wish the OLD ROCK could be a TVG reporter and interviewed Irad and Steve seperately after that race....

I'd PAY per second on that one !

LOL what if after that ride asmussen just brought out the hardcore cart and started beating ortiz with some weapons....then again maybe asmussen was in on it too..... im not at all saying thats the case, but it does make you wonder.

[Racetrack Playa]

Jose Ortiz rode the :3:Tiger Moth in the Rebel:confused:, That got me Off the:2:
when he was on :2: Terra Promessa and won the Pippin, Why didn't:p Assmusen get Jose back on:confused:, He's a better speed rider right.
THe Pippin @ 23:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lybBEugZRFo

[EMD4ME]

emd had time to cut and paste a youtube video, but did he follow my instructions and go back and look at the jockeys 'style' in the previous win?

Might have to do this if he did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK9odsWwfIo

Despite you being a troll, I will answer your 1 point as I am an adult.

I could see where you thought that Santana had the same hold on her that Irad did. However, they are NIGHT and DAY different.

Santana allowed the horse to run in a natural fashion. Her head was slightly cocked downward after they crossed the wire (as opposed to Irad causing that super early) but Irad had her head severely cocked downward and inward.

Santana had a nice rated hold on her AFTER he let her get comfortable.

Irad made sure she became uncomfortable and his knees were locked with his weight shifted back (causing fricton for the horse).

Santana's legs looked similar but you could tell they are in unison with the horse's stride, not an attempt to butcher a horse.

You were kidding right? You were kidding, I hope.....

[EMD4ME]

LOL what if after that ride asmussen just brought out the hardcore cart and started beating ortiz with some weapons....then again maybe asmussen was in on it too..... im not at all saying thats the case, but it does make you wonder.

Everything crosses my mind, sadly......

The first part sounds fun though....:ThmbUp:

[AltonKelsey]

After the race is run they come out of the woodwork. Here's one pre race.


Hong Kong

They are about to run a 5 horse field with only TWO trainers involved.

And a handle of about 5 trillion dollars on the race.

[AltonKelsey]

emd, despite you being a , well, better not say it, I'll respond.

Have you EVER admitted to being wrong, or is your first impression etched in stone and immutable?

Time and date if you have it.

[PaceAdvantage]

I like you.Always making it personal I see. Either way...giving or taking...it's always personal with you.

[SoCalCircuit]

LOL what if after that ride asmussen just brought out the hardcore cart and started beating ortiz with some weapons....then again maybe asmussen was in on it too..... im not at all saying thats the case, but it does make you wonder.

Well Steve's hardcore cart might consist entirely of electrical shock devices.

[EMD4ME]

emd, despite you being a , well, better not say it, I'll respond.

Have you EVER admitted to being wrong, or is your first impression etched in stone and immutable?

Time and date if you have it.

To be open with you, I admit fault more readily than the average person. I do if for the good of the team and I do it because I am absolutely wrong.

If you actually read my posts, you would've found a dozen times that I said I was wrong-I'm sorry (in recent times). I'm sorry you don't pay enough attention (as you troll me) but I refuse to waste my time to prove it to you. Just read my posts and you'll find them.

[EMD4ME]

Always making it personal I see. Either way...giving or taking...it's always personal with you.

Not personal..... humane/friendly and what is wrong with letting LDH know I'm not fighting with him.

Internet communication doesn't properly reflect tone, what's wrong with ensuring the recipient gets the proper tone?


Don't worry, I like YOU TOO PA :pound::pound: Just kidding :pound::pound: (err, uuuhhh eerrr. you know what I mean :pound:)

[AltonKelsey]

No, I'm not buying it. And neither is anyone else, besides the 2 or 3 shills that follow you around .

Characterizing anyone disagreeing with you as trolling is proof of something, don't you think?

[PaceAdvantage]

To be open with you, I admit fault more readily than the average person. I do if for the good of the team and I do it because I am absolutely wrong.

If you actually read my posts, you would've found a dozen times that I said I was wrong-I'm sorry (in recent times). I'm sorry you don't pay enough attention (as you troll me) but I refuse to waste my time to prove it to you. Just read my posts and you'll find them.The one time you ever admitted you were wrong was after American Pharoah won the Haskell. But that lasted for about 5 seconds.

[EMD4ME]

No, I'm not buying it. And neither is anyone else, besides the 2 or 3 shills that follow you around .

Characterizing anyone disagreeing with you as trolling is proof of something, don't you think?

We've covered this. CJ told you to stop trolling me over and over and over again.

You didn't disagree. You, in the wise words of our master, had some sort of personal issue with me (take a number please, we're up to 2412, you have number 11,989) and I replied to you with facts, facts and more facts. You didn't like that and kept trolling.

I don't need to explain a thing to you. I fell for your fake attempt to discuss a race a few minutes ago. Won't fall for it again.

As for following people :confused::confused: I don't follow a soul around on here, so I have no clue what you're talking about.

You're not my girlfriend, so there's no need to prove a thing to you.

[EMD4ME]

The one time you ever admitted you were wrong was after American Pharoah won the Haskell. But that lasted for about 5 seconds.

I was wrong when I added up TLG's winners last week or 2-3 weeks ago. I immediately apologized and said I was wrong.

I openly state my picks sucked when 1, 2, 3 or more of them just run poorly with no excuse.

There's more, I just don't feel like searching through 9000 posts :)

[PaceAdvantage]

Dangerously close to closing this thread, as it's obviously run its course and is now veering into stupidville.

[SandyW]

I just watched the replay of the race again and did not see anything wrong with Ortiz's ride. He tried to go on early in the race and was locked in and stayed locked in all the way down the back stretch. When he asked the horse turning for home the horse came up empty.
These are horses not machines and are allowed to throw in a clunker every now and then.

[PaceAdvantage]

Careful Sandy. You're about to be told by the self-proclaimed "nicest guy in the world" that you are either a troll or an incompetent handicapper.

Welcome to EMD world.

Or maybe he'll just post up a clip of The Rock if he's feeling lazy.

[Stoleitbreezing]

The jock on the :2: choked and denied the horse her preferred running style. The previous two races she won wire to wire she defeated the victorious :7: by more than 5 lengths each time. I don't buy the horse was denied the lead or shutoff from the rail. The :2: was the pace setter in the G1 Kentucky Oaks last year when she broke from the rail and took that to the 3/4's before giving way. There is no doubt in my mind she could of/should of gotten the lead from the inside post against a short G2 field full of horse she beat already.

[EMD4ME]

Careful Sandy. You're about to be told by the self-proclaimed "nicest guy in the world" that you are either a troll or an incompetent handicapper.

Welcome to EMD world.

Or maybe he'll just post up a clip of The Rock if he's feeling lazy.

I love ya too PA :ThmbUp: :lol:


Hey, 100 people can watch a race and see 100 different things.

It's what makes the game so awesome. I'm done debating this one. 80% of the posters seem to see this 1 black and white. That's an accomplishment as this site's posters are usually pro defend them.

[Andy Asaro]

When this happens (Jock changes successful running style for no apparent reason) the Stewards should question the jock in more detail (We already know the Trainer was stunned by the ride). Additionally an investigation into unusual betting patterns should begin. The most logical place to look would be Betfair. Did someone or some group bet big against Terra Promessa? And how about in the mutuel pools.

Maybe it was a brain fart maybe not but you never know what comes out when you shake the tree.

[Tom]

When you see Ortiz on a horse, why expect an honest ride?
I never do. But then, I only see him when he ships out.

Crooked or stupid, I dunno.

[Robert Fischer]

It was at least a dumb ride, and unfortunate circumstances compounded the mistakes.

I couldn't see definitive evidence of race-fixing, so either:

a)He was masterful at cheating
b)I'm incompetent at detecting cheating
c)It was just a dumb ride, Or
d)Other

[EMD4ME]

It was at least a dumb ride, and unfortunate circumstances compounded the mistakes.

I couldn't see definitive evidence of race-fixing, so either:

a)He was masterful at cheating
b)I'm incompetent at detecting cheating
c)It was just a dumb ride, Or
d)Other

Trust me when I tell you, he is AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Great rider..... ;):pound::pound::pound:

[Andy Asaro]

I think most people could agree that there needs to be more scrutiny on Jockeys in these types of spots. If nothing else it serves as some kind of deterrent.

[ultracapper]

Just saw the race for the first time, and I can't believe what I saw. With two shakes of the reins that big Fav has the lead 30 yards out of the gate. She broke great and the jock, with mild urging, had the lead for the taking.

One of two things,

1) Those that are saying there is nothing wrong with, at minimum, that particular portion of the race, have either never watched a horse race, don't have a clue, or

2) are those that bet on other horses and are saying there is nothing wrong here, were, at the time of the race, watching it and saying down low to themselves, "RIGHT ON. THAT HORSE IS TOTALLY GETTING SCREWED". Those people only say it's all kosher now because now they can say to themselves they are smart 'cappers rather than just stupid lucky.

I don't know if the jock is a criminal or not, but at minimum he certainly mis-assessed the situation fatally out of the gate. A CLEAR lead was there for the taking right out of the gate. That jock murdered that horse's chances less than 5 seconds into the race. As for her nose down while running in the stretch, I don't think you can blame that on the jock AT THAT MOMENT. I think she was running like that because she had been basically gutted from the gate to the 1/4 pole by the trip she endured. She'd been grinding her gears up to the 1/4 pole, and they were stripped clean by the time she tried to kick it in turning for home.

[EMD4ME]

I know I can't wait for the next Asmussen horse with an Ortiz up that has a minus show pool....

They're good for 1 a year so far (minus pools blown up)

[Racetrack Playa]

:bang:Watch the :2: Terra Promessa in the Fantasy 2016
Santana UP, nose Down as usual and fighting
(:23.57, :46.96, 1:12.03, 1.38.08, 1:43.06) Fantasy
(:23.71, :47.41, 1:11.68, 1:37.00, 1:43.67) Azeri
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psLVu6SYLAM

[EMD4ME]

:bang:Watch the :2: Terra Promessa in the Fantasy 2016
Santana UP, nose Down as usual and fighting
(:23.57, :46.96, 1:12.03, 1.38.08, 1:43.06) Fantasy
(:23.71, :47.41, 1:11.68, 1:37.00, 1:43.67) Azeri
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psLVu6SYLAM

Are you kidding?

That was no where near what we saw Sat.

That fighting you saw near the 3/4, was Santana pulling her to get out of the kickback (go wider). Her nose wasn't facing straight down, like with Irad AND he had an awesome soft hold BEHIND A MASSIVE 3 horse duel early on. She was 90% comfortable there.

Its not even close.

[Racetrack Playa]

Not kidding EMD, :eek:

[EMD4ME]

Not kidding EMD, :eek:

That's cool. Parimutual game, that's why its the best game in the world :ThmbUp:

[AltonKelsey]

Not kidding EMD, :eek:

I already pointed this out using her LAST race. So now we have two examples of why the bash of Ortiz is ill conceived at best. You can lead em to water, but you cant make them think .

[EMD4ME]

I already pointed this out using her LAST race. So now we have two examples of why the bash of Ortiz is ill conceived at best. You can lead em to water, but you cant make them think .

It's not my fault you have no talent in watching a race.

And it's not my job to educate you.

[AltonKelsey]

It's not my fault you have no talent in watching a race.

And it's not my job to educate you.

No problem friend. And thanks for not using any icons.

[EMD4ME]

No problem friend. And thanks for not using any icons.

:headbanger: No problem :)

[jimmyb]

:bang:Watch the :2: Terra Promessa in the Fantasy 2016
Santana UP, nose Down as usual and fighting
(:23.57, :46.96, 1:12.03, 1.38.08, 1:43.06) Fantasy
(:23.71, :47.41, 1:11.68, 1:37.00, 1:43.67) Azeri
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psLVu6SYLAM

Looks like a carbon copy thru the first half. Same rank animal.

[EMD4ME]

Looks like a carbon copy thru the first half. Same rank animal.

So you think a horse that is comfortable (only threw head once BUT THAT was as Jock was pulling her abruptly outward near the 3/4) VS. a horse that was throttled down to run TOO slowly, with her head bobbing (facing the ground) every 2 seconds (and then a complete head tear off in the early ct run) is the same?

I am utterly shocked how people can look at the same thing and see 2 different things.

In other words, she ran with the complete emergency brakes on Saturday for 3/8.

In this other effort she was running LOADED and rated.

HUGE DIFFERENCE

[ultracapper]

She should have been on the lead and coasting into the clubhouse turn. That's so simple to see it's ridiculous.

[EMD4ME]

She should have been on the lead and coasting into the clubhouse turn. That's so simple to see it's ridiculous.

I think the conversation ends right there :ThmbUp:

When a horse is forced to run TOO slow and they are made super rank, game over.

When you factor in that he broke well and in front, no one was gunning (4 was not send hard), Irad had just no excuse not to lead.


Now Hypothetically speaking, if that was an honest run by IRAD, than it just shows how he is not an A type rider by any stretch of the imagination.

These days any average Joe Shmo jock wins some big races/many races as there are no Bailey's, Cordero's or Ramon's around to dominate a circuit.

[Racetrack Playa]

She should have been on the lead and coasting into the clubhouse turn. That's so simple to see it's ridiculous.

like the Oaks
I think this horse could be a jerk.but Idk
I still wondering about Santana :eek:5 wins and broke her maiden
I agree that the ride was bad , but it was not criminal ,anyway
LDH:ThmbUp: and NoBrthyzr :ThmbUp:
and Me.


She does have a funny head position,almost vertical ,
Some more youtubes for yall
Oaks 2016
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_1lV6dl0W4

@ 24:30 Honeybee 2016
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1h4vS2Trec

[AltonKelsey]

More evidence.

Clearly , this horse is ridden every time with a long hold early , and when she's right, the filly takes HERSELF to the lead. Probably doesn't want to be hustled by the rider. The connections do know their own horses after all.

This time, she simply didn't fire early , and the turn came up quickly, as did the squeeze.

If the rail was a bit dead as some have claimed, that might have added to the issue.

So there we have it, a reasoned analysis as opposed to a hysterical , paranoid one.

[Racetrack Playa]

That's cool. Parimutual game, that's why its the best game in the world :ThmbUp:
GL EMD, I think we play in different pools,Peace
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8l7OI7U6zM

[davew]

But how did Ortiz know the 4 was going to cut him off and then there would be a horse be his side the entire back stretch locking him in?

[Andy Asaro]

But how did Ortiz know the 4 was going to cut him off and then there would be a horse be his side the entire back stretch locking him in?

If he rode her to her best style he would have gone to the lead easily. Getting rank in a pocket with kickback is what you can usually expect when you take back from an inside post around two turns IMO

[AltonKelsey]

But how did Ortiz know the 4 was going to cut him off and then there would be a horse be his side the entire back stretch locking him in?

According to some, he was just hoping that would happen. If not, then he probably had a plan B and plan C to finish off the board so some idiot bridge jumper would get hosed.

These guys have a lot of time to figure all this out.

According to some.:cool:

[rsetup]

If he rode her to her best style he would have gone to the lead easily. Getting rank in a pocket with kickback is what you can usually expect when you take back from an inside post around two turns IMO


Only with horses that train the trainer rather than the other way around.


If she's on the lead early, given the way she performed when not ever asked to run until the stretch, she finishes last.

Of the top five around the track:

Only the pacesetter and PRINCESS failed to hit the board. Of course, if PRINCESS were gunned to the lead, she definitely would've wired them. :lol::lol: Right.

I mean, the horse was 1/5. Usually, I expect my 1/5 shots to be better than the others in the field and able to win with less than perfect trips. PRINCESS ends up getting a perfect trip and you're all falling all over yourselves making excuses for her.

Horses sits a perfect pocket trip and she doesn't fire. Screw the checking!!! She wasn't running when she was checking. She was sucking along.

[EMD4ME]

:19:like the Oaks
I think this horse could be a jerk.but Idk
I still wondering about Santana :eek:5 wins and broke her maiden
I agree that the ride was bad , but it was not criminal ,anyway
LDH:ThmbUp: and NoBrthyzr :ThmbUp:
and Me.


She does have a funny head position,almost vertical ,
Some more youtubes for yall
Oaks 2016
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_1lV6dl0W4

@ 24:30 Honeybee 2016
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1h4vS2Trec

Thanks for the video evidence :ThmbUp:

In the Honey Bee and The oaks her head is not pulled downward at any point like Irad choppily did on Saturday. She was allowed by the jock to gain her comfortable cruising speed and ran her best possible race as she wasnt wrangled down and MADE rank.

Appreciate it racetrack player :ThmbUp:

[EMD4ME]

More evidence.

Clearly , this horse is ridden every time with a long hold early , and when she's right, the filly takes HERSELF to the lead. Probably doesn't want to be hustled by the rider. The connections do know their own horses after all.

This time, she simply didn't fire early , and the turn came up quickly, as did the squeeze.

If the rail was a bit dead as some have claimed, that might have added to the issue.

So there we have it, a reasoned analysis as opposed to a hysterical , paranoid one.

You

A) must be a troll
B) must lose a lot on the horses
C) have no clue what you're watching..you may see but you have no clue what you're watching.

If you can't tell the difference between a horse wasting all her energy on a jock choking her out VS. A horse in a comfortable gait then I suggest you never play horses again..

In the Honeybee she never once is slowed down. She is allowed to run at her natural gait and cruising speed. Her head is never once cocked so downward as Irad had it 5 seconds into Saturdays race.

In the oaks she comfortably cruises to the lead. Never once throws her head. Never once has her nose pointed to her chest.


At this point, you're obviously trolling and should be banned.

[EMD4ME]

But how did Ortiz know the 4 was going to cut him off and then there would be a horse be his side the entire back stretch locking him in?

Is this a serious question? Like for real???

OK I'll act like it is for arguments sake.

1) if the main speed is dragged down behind the pacesetter, it means they are where ? The pocket.

2) it also means that the pace will be abnormally slower than expected. So....others will be dragged up into the pace.

3) it was about 90/1 that another horse WOULDNT be next to Irad as he slammed the emergency brakes on his mount.

[EMD4ME]

According to some, he was just hoping that would happen. If not, then he probably had a plan B and plan C to finish off the board so some idiot bridge jumper would get hosed.

These guys have a lot of time to figure all this out.

According to some.:cool:

Wow. Just wow....

[Andy Asaro]

One interesting dynamic in all of this is that some people (even people who I consider friends) are kind of mad at me for suggesting there was something nefarious going on. We rail about Trainers cheating all the time, even in big races. We say that they have a motive to cheat because it's all about the money. In the case of the Jock in this situation his cut if he won was nice but not nearly as much as the knowledge that he was changing tactics could have on say Betfair and Offshore.

Ortiz either willfully decided to change tactics without telling the connections, or he had a brain fart, or there was something crooked going on. At the very least don't you investigate the mutuel pools or even ask Betfair about any unusual action. If there was no unusual action he was guilty of the first two.

I would think that Ortiz earns enough money and doesn't have any expensive bad habits to need the money but that's not always the motive. Sometimes people do things because they can.

[sour grapes]

this must be an early april fools post about jose,yes it was a bad ride but to suggest he stiffed the horse to take down the show pool is laughable at best.He is 21 years old with a bright future and millions in the bank and hes trying to cash a show bet that would probably net him less than the 10% purse he would get if he won ,i know horseplayers are a skeptical group but this is being paraniod.

[menifee]

One interesting dynamic in all of this is that some people (even people who I consider friends) are kind of mad at me for suggesting there was something nefarious going on. We rail about Trainers cheating all the time, even in big races. We say that they have a motive to cheat because it's all about the money. In the case of the Jock in this situation his cut if he won was nice but not nearly as much as the knowledge that he was changing tactics could have on say Betfair and Offshore.

Ortiz either willfully decided to change tactics without telling the connections, or he had a brain fart, or there was something crooked going on. At the very least don't you investigate the mutuel pools or even ask Betfair about any unusual action. If there was no unusual action he was guilty of the first two.

I would think that Ortiz earns enough money and doesn't have any expensive bad habits to need the money but that's not always the motive. Sometimes people do things because they can.

Anyone who bets a 1-5 should be investigated as well. Anyone who bets Irad Ortiz at 1-5 on a lone speed horse should be banned from all tracks immediately. While we appreciate their contribution to the pools, we cannot condone stealing in the win pools.

[EMD4ME]

Anyone who bets a 1-5 should be investigated as well. Anyone who bets Irad Ortiz at 1-5 on a lone speed horse should be banned from all tracks immediately. While we appreciate their contribution to the pools, we cannot condone stealing in the win pools.

This I totally agree with but half heartedly. I want them in the pools :lol:

[EMD4ME]

:coffee:this must be an early april fools post about jose,yes it was a bad ride but to suggest he stiffed the horse to take down the show pool is laughable at best.He is 21 years old with a bright future and millions in the bank and hes trying to cash a show bet that would probably net him less than the 10% purse he would get if he won ,i know horseplayers are a skeptical group but this is being paraniod.

First of all , its Irad not Jose.

2nd- the argument of why would someone risk their career, they're so rich doesn't fly...anyone can play around .

People act like this game is so clean. The audicity one has to question something.....etc.

[NorCalGreg]

:coffee:

First of all , its Irad not Jose.

2nd- the argument of why would someone risk their career, they're so rich doesn't fly...anyone can play around .

People act like this game is so clean. The audicity one has to question something.....etc.

Isn't "Audicity" a brand of car speakers?

[Andy Asaro]

this must be an early april fools post about jose,yes it was a bad ride but to suggest he stiffed the horse to take down the show pool is laughable at best.He is 21 years old with a bright future and millions in the bank and hes trying to cash a show bet that would probably net him less than the 10% purse he would get if he won ,i know horseplayers are a skeptical group but this is being paraniod.

Full disclosure there were DD's, P3's, P5, exactas, tri's, and supers involved. It not all about the show prices.

The Trainer wasn't expecting him to change her winning style. Even the announcer who is a decent handicapper was shocked that she didn't get the easy lead.

In countries with exchange wagering it's much easier to follow the money. We see Jocks and other insiders get caught every year. Human nature is to take an edge if you can. And, we know that in the United States they almost never investigate this stuff.

Had I known he was going to change her optimal style (running loose on the lead) I would have bet all others to show and spread more in the P5 and in the vertical wagers. In the race I actually started the P5 with #2 and #5. I used the 5 because of the weight swing (think it was 8 or 9 pounds). If figured that if she was going to lose it would be because of a duel on the front end if someone else really sent their mounts. As it unfolded he took back behind a slow pace. It is a fact that her highest figures are run in wire to wire fashion.

[Andy Asaro]

Anyone who bets a 1-5 should be investigated as well. Anyone who bets Irad Ortiz at 1-5 on a lone speed horse should be banned from all tracks immediately. While we appreciate their contribution to the pools, we cannot condone stealing in the win pools.

The point is that that Oaklawn has lowered its show takeout (think it's 10%) and handle on that wager is up 50% according to their marketing person. Since Oaklawn has more inexperienced gamblers on track a lot of them bet to show for the thrill of cashing a ticket. Stuff like this changes their opinion of the game IMO.

[SandyW]

Why would anybody think that any jockey would cheat in a $350,000 race ???

[PaceAdvantage]

You

A) must be a troll
B) must lose a lot on the horses
C) have no clue what you're watching..you may see but you have no clue what you're watching.See what I mean? Almost to script.

You really have to stop this. Really.

[PaceAdvantage]

It's real easy to craft a situation after the race is run. I could probably back fit a million races into "hey look, he was cheating here..."

But the nuances and machinations some of you go through to try and fit that square peg into the round hole is a bit too much sometimes.

This is starting to look like one of those times....again

[PaceAdvantage]

PRINCESS ends up getting a perfect trip and you're all falling all over yourselves making excuses for her.

Horses sits a perfect pocket trip and she doesn't fire. Screw the checking!!! She wasn't running when she was checking. She was sucking along.Interesting observation...and ignored by most here.

EMD is going to tell you you're a troll (and sometimes you are...lol), and you don't know how to watch a race or handicap (this part I know is untrue).

In any event, thanks for playing.

[Run Nicholas Run]

Lets see what happens today as Irad is listed on three mounts at Parx,
will he use the "Nick Petro hammerlock" ?

[sour grapes]

Interesting observation...and ignored by most here.

EMD is going to tell you you're a troll (and sometimes you are...lol), and you don't know how to watch a race or handicap (this part I know is untrue).

In any event, thanks for playing.

i dont know why anyone would continue to bet good money between the takeout and conspiricies against them they could find a better hobby. .

[Mr. Pick 5]

Lets see what happens today as Irad is listed on three mounts at Parx,
will he use the "Nick Petro hammerlock" ?

Whenever irad ventures to parx he normally DOMINATES

[EMD4ME]

See what I mean? Almost to script.

You really have to stop this. Really.

Pa, see my interaction with racetrack player. That's normal. I told him we disagree. We hug . Continue on..

Alton follows me in threads, disagrees with everything I say and is on a crusade to just fight with me.

I'm calling him out in it. Its that simple

[EMD4ME]

Interesting observation...and ignored by most here.

EMD is going to tell you you're a troll (and sometimes you are...lol), and you don't know how to watch a race or handicap (this part I know is untrue).

In any event, thanks for playing.

I've pointed out why I disagree with facts.

No I won't call him a troll because he is not a troll.

You obviously Dont pay enough attention to your members posts

[PaceAdvantage]

Alton follows me in threads, disagrees with everything I say and is on a crusade to just fight with me. i don't care. People are allowed to "follow you." That's what you want, isn't it? A following. That's why you come here...to have people interact with you and respond to what you say.

If he didn't disagree with you, he wouldn't be a troll or accused of "following you." He'd be your best bud, like Mister Pick 5, who ALSO FOLLOWS YOU, but somehow isn't a troll.

[PaceAdvantage]

Here's a question. Are you all being far too influenced by Mr. Stauffer's call of this race? You know, the announcer some of you in this very thread have called abyssal this season at Oaklawn?

Because after watching the race in question multiple times...I have to wonder about soemthing.

Ortiz breaks in front, yes, but he actually doesn't start "taking back" his mount until AFTER he is passed by not 1, but 2 horses who were clearly going to get to the front over Terra Promessa. Indeed, BEFORE even Ortiz starts to take her back, Stauffer is already declaring her being taken back, when in fact she's being passed, not taken back...yet.

You don't see Ortiz change his position in the saddle, and you don't see Terra Promessa's mouth getting "yanked" until AFTER she is passed and is obviously not going to make the front going into the turn.

This entire thread just might be a pile of bullshit once again.

I should have known better and examined this race sooner.

[Mr. Pick 5]

i don't care. People are allowed to "follow you." That's what you want, isn't it? A following. That's why you come here...to have people interact with you and respond to what you say.

If he didn't disagree with you, he wouldn't be a troll or accused of "following you." He'd be your best bud, like Mister Pick 5, who ALSO FOLLOWS YOU, but somehow isn't a troll.

Just because ive supported EMD's views several times does not mean i follow him. In fact, I have actually disagreed with him at times as well, and made it known through my posts.

EMD is the most polarizing figure on this forum. If you want to call him stimulating good horse talk and banter and me responding to these posts "following" than so be it. I will admit, I am a bit surprised you're not nicer to possibly the poster who brings the most life to this forum.

[PaceAdvantage]

Just because ive supported EMD's views several times does not mean i follow him. In fact, I have actually disagreed with him at times as well, and made it known through my posts.

EMD is the most polarizing figure on this forum. If you want to call him stimulating good horse talk and banter and me responding to these posts "following" than so be it. I will admit, I am a bit surprised you're not nicer to possibly the poster who brings the most life to this forum.You and Alton "follow" EMD in a similar manner. But just because Alton disagrees with EMD a lot and you do not (most of the time), Alton is labeled a troll while you are not.

Completely unfair in my book. People are allowed to follow and respond to whomever they wish here.

[Mr. Pick 5]

You and Alton "follow" EMD in a similar manner. But just because Alton disagrees with EMD a lot and you do not (most of the time), Alton is labeled a troll while you are not.

Completely unfair in my book. People are allowed to follow and respond to whomever they wish here.

Alton does more than just disagree with him...in the past he has popped into random threads multiple times talking about diaz out of the blue...i would consider that trolling....as to additional instances i do not know any off the top of my head as i dont know all of their interactions, but im sure if EMD is calling the man a troll he has good reason...if they were just simple disagreements or differing viewpoints i highly doubt there would be an issue...in fact i doubt there really is an issue right now other than Alton being annoying and obnoxious at times which just has to be ignored at this point...maybe not all of these interactions with EMD were meant to be troll-like in nature....but how are you supposed to think otherwise after the initial string of comments

[PaceAdvantage]

Unless you apply for the job of moderator, how about you let me and the other moderators here decide who is a troll and who isn't. Trolls usually get banned.

If someone isn't banned after a while, you can consider them NOT a troll.

If we need more moderators, we'll let you know.

End of discussion. And back to the thread topic please. Thanks.

[Andy Asaro]

Here's a question. Are you all being far too influenced by Mr. Stauffer's call of this race? You know, the announcer some of you in this very thread have called abyssal this season at Oaklawn?

Because after watching the race in question multiple times...I have to wonder about soemthing.

Ortiz breaks in front, yes, but he actually doesn't start "taking back" his mount until AFTER he is passed by not 1, but 2 horses who were clearly going to get to the front over Terra Promessa. Indeed, BEFORE even Ortiz starts to take her back, Stauffer is already declaring her being taken back, when in fact she's being passed, not taken back...yet.

You don't see Ortiz change his position in the saddle, and you don't see Terra Promessa's mouth getting "yanked" until AFTER she is passed and is obviously not going to make the front going into the turn.

This entire thread just might be a pile of bullshit once again.

I should have known better and examined this race sooner.

As you and I have discussed I have an agenda beyond just the Board. In this case it is my hope that someone looking in might pass it along to someone with the authority to do a brief investigation. I would prefer that in cases like this the Jockey is questioned about the ride by the Stewards just like they would in Hong Kong which most of us agree that they have higher standards of integrity. After that you look into any unusual action. Surely more transparency in this area would be good for the game.

[EMD4ME]

i don't care. People are allowed to "follow you." That's what you want, isn't it? A following. That's why you come here...to have people interact with you and respond to what you say.

If he didn't disagree with you, he wouldn't be a troll or accused of "following you." He'd be your best bud, like Mister Pick 5, who ALSO FOLLOWS YOU, but somehow isn't a troll.

No. I don't come here for a following.

I come here to shoot the horse manure.

I can disagree cordially or passionately but if I see if someone is just disagreeing to troll, I'll call them out on it.

Mr. Pick 5 disagreed on Vic, superpickle and I disagree on 90% of topics, elhelmete and I same thing , thaskalos and I etc . Difference is I believe that they believe their thoughts. Where as Alton has just 1 agenda.


Anyway, that's cool. I'll just not pay any mind to Alton when applies.

[EMD4ME]

As you and I have discussed I have an agenda beyond just the Board. In this case it is my hope that someone looking in might pass it along to someone with the authority to do a brief investigation. I would prefer that in cases like this the Jockey is questioned about the ride by the Stewards just like they would in Hong Kong which most of us agree that they have higher standards of integrity. After that you look into any unusual action. Surely more transparency in this area would be good for the game.

Some transparency would be nice as well someone actually questioning and investigating.

[PaceAdvantage]

You don't have to worry about trolls. Let us worry about trolls.

If we see a troll, we'll whack them. If we miss a troll, and you alert us (either directly or declaring them a troll publicly), and we agree, we'll whack them.

If they don't get whacked, you can assume they aren't trolls.

Thank me very much.

[Murph]

Completely unfair in my book. People are allowed to follow and respond to whomever they wish here.
As long as you have tough enough skin.

[EasyGoer89]

this must be an early april fools post about jose,yes it was a bad ride but to suggest he stiffed the horse to take down the show pool is laughable at best.He is 21 years old with a bright future and millions in the bank and hes trying to cash a show bet that would probably net him less than the 10% purse he would get if he won ,i know horseplayers are a skeptical group but this is being paraniod.

yes, because all 21 year olds in society with 'bright futures' always take the 'most logical' route.

[EMD4ME]

Here's a question. Are you all being far too influenced by Mr. Stauffer's call of this race? You know, the announcer some of you in this very thread have called abyssal this season at Oaklawn?

Because after watching the race in question multiple times...I have to wonder about soemthing.

Ortiz breaks in front, yes, but he actually doesn't start "taking back" his mount until AFTER he is passed by not 1, but 2 horses who were clearly going to get to the front over Terra Promessa. Indeed, BEFORE even Ortiz starts to take her back, Stauffer is already declaring her being taken back, when in fact she's being passed, not taken back...yet.

You don't see Ortiz change his position in the saddle, and you don't see Terra Promessa's mouth getting "yanked" until AFTER she is passed and is obviously not going to make the front going into the turn.

This entire thread just might be a pile of bullshit once again.

I should have known better and examined this race sooner.

I dont know how to nicely say this ......

I'll try....

Vic was an a-hole to me, his announcing has had some faux pas but he was and is an excellent handicapper. An excellent handicapper / racecaller can clearly see things that average eyes can't.

Respectfully , you are 100% incorrect in your race replay assessment. Ortiz subtly dragged her and slowed her down well before the clubhouse turn and well before "she was passed". You don't need to see palms up or a rank horse to see a horse slowed down.

Vic saw it right and called it right. I don't think his surprise was the fact that she was rated. It was possibly due to his surprise with how the 1st 1/16 was developing. (Slow and soft). I don't think he wouldve been surprised if she was rated kindly behind 2 or 3 dead senders.

Announcers do speak code.....they can't obviously say what they want to say....

[PaceAdvantage]

I dont know how to nicely say this ......This has been your problem from day one around here.

So you wanted him scrubbing and whipping away out of the gate, even though she broke out front and was in the lead pretty easily strides into the race? That's what you think would have been a better trip?

A horse, who by your own words, should have gotten an easy lead...gets an easy lead after the start...then gets quickly passed by two rivals...

I'm not saying he rode that horse perfectly. I'm saying there is NO CLEAR EVIDENCE of what is being asserted here, yet again, for the upteenth time, against your favorite jockey target these days.

I see a jockey trying to play it too clever...thought he was on the best speed...got to the front pretty easily without pushing her...was passed unexpectedly then decided to ease off and not get involved in a three way speed duel and met resistance from his horse and trouble from the two in front of him as they entered the turn.

You're the last person on earth who can be relied upon for an objective post-race debriefing on an Ortiz ride.

[Ruffian1]

This has been your problem from day one around here.

So you wanted him scrubbing and whipping away out of the gate, even though she broke out front and was in the lead pretty easily strides into the race? That's what you think would have been a better trip?

A horse, who by your own words, should have gotten an easy lead...gets an easy lead after the start...then gets quickly passed by two rivals...

I'm not saying he rode that horse perfectly. I'm saying there is NO CLEAR EVIDENCE of what is being asserted here, yet again, for the upteenth time, against your favorite jockey target these days.

I see a jockey trying to play it too clever...thought he was on the best speed...got to the front pretty easily without pushing her...was passed unexpectedly then decided to ease off and not get involved in a three way speed duel and met resistance from his horse and trouble from the two in front of him as they entered the turn.

You're the last person on earth who can be relied upon for an objective post-race debriefing on an Ortiz ride.



I apologize for butting in to this mess of a discussion but is this race where this jock did what he allegedly did posted in here?
Can you provide a link?
If you already have, I am sorry for not searching.
Please enlighten me.

If not, I can find it if you give me the particulars.

I would love to see it.
And will be happy to share my thoughts, in case anybody gives a damn about them.
Maybe it will help sort this mess out.
Hope I can help.

[Racetrack Playa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iFdkHwkpGg

[Andy Asaro]

I apologize for butting in to this mess of a discussion but is this race where this jock did what he allegedly did posted in here?
Can you provide a link?
If you already have, I am sorry for not searching.
Please enlighten me.

If not, I can find it if you give me the particulars.

I would love to see it.
And will be happy to share my thoughts, in case anybody gives a damn about them.
Maybe it will help sort this mess out.
Hope I can help.

I attached PP's and a chart in the thread. It was the 7th at Oaklawn on Saturday.

[Ruffian1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iFdkHwkpGg


Thank you !!

[Ruffian1]

I attached PP's and a chart in the thread. It was the 7th at Oaklawn on Saturday.


Awesome !!

Really need them to understand the race.

Thanks so much.

[EMD4ME]

1) This has been your problem from day one around here.

2) So you wanted him scrubbing and whipping away out of the gate, even though she broke out front and was in the lead pretty easily strides into the race? That's what you think would have been a better trip?

2A) A horse, who by your own words, should have gotten an easy lead...gets an easy lead after the start...then gets quickly passed by two rivals...

3)I'm not saying he rode that horse perfectly. I'm saying there is NO CLEAR EVIDENCE of what is being asserted here, yet again, for the upteenth time, against your favorite jockey target these days.

4) I see a jockey trying to play it too clever...thought he was on the best speed...got to the front pretty easily without pushing her...3A) was passed unexpectedly then decided to ease off and not get involved in a three way speed duel and met resistance from his horse and trouble from the two in front of him as they entered the turn.

5) You're the last person on earth who can be relied upon for an objective post-race debriefing on an Ortiz ride.

1) No PA. I say it like it is and you hate that. Reason why you hate it that I say it like it is, is because it can cause you legal issues. I finally grasped that and I learned to speak code, like you asked me to do .

2) Are you ABSOLUTELY KIDDING ME BEYOND BELIEF HERE? This kid didn't need to scrub and whip at all. If he just didn't choke the horse out, he's up by 3 easy in this race on 3/18/17. If you don't believe me, ask the talented people out there that actually know what they are talking about. You can start and stop with CJ, your only moderator.

2A) SHE DIDN'T QUICKLY GET PASSED BY 2 RIVALS!!!!! She quickly got choked out to death to DEFER TO 2 RIVALS. One day, when you actually learn to race watch, I expect a sincere apology and thank you for the education.

3) Well that's the understatement of the last 2 decades......

I've defended Irad, you KNOW that.....but when I see a reason to critique, I will critique.

And he's NOT my favorite jockey to critique. I'm an EQUAL opportunity jockey lover/hater. If Ramon ever stiffed a horse, I'd call him out on it. He NEVER EVER DID. If Irad gives a great ride, I say: WOW, AWESOME RIDE BY IRAD. If Cornelio blows a mount, I state why his ride deserved an "F" in terms of performance. It's called being FAIR. You may think I am not but I am. Again, since we never met in person, you only see words on a screen. If we met in person, I guaranty, I bet my mother's life, your opinion of me would change in a heartbeat.



4) That is what people in denial (of nefarious tactics being employed) do. My wife isn't cheating on me, maybe she needs some alone time. Have you ever seen Irad ride a horse that he has OBVIOUS intentions on winning on? Have you taken close notice on a horse that Irad is OBVIOUSLY not trying to win on?

I HAVE. I have studied tape on this kid and his brother, 29 times in a row at 3 am, to see what their tendencies are. I study who they ride for, how they look around at the gate when they care or don't care. Shit I even know what their teeth look like. Not because I am obsessed with them but BECAUSE I am a pro gambler and I need the frieken edge.

For you to take a cursory look at this race and speak to people who LIVE off this game from a gambling perspective and dismiss us as nuts, is a slap to the people who keep this game alive, your site moving and the industry afloat.

3A) I am so DUMBFOUNDED for words, a librarian couldn't assist me.....SIMPLY, JUST WOW.....For many years, I was told that I have an amazing talent for watching races. I never ever believed a single person who said that. I thought people wanted to borrow from me, beat me to steal money from me, use me etc. Now, it's hitting home. I humbly do see that some other people don't see. How you can say that, someone that I respect, is unfathomable to my eyes, my brain and my soul. Frieken Stupifies me.

She wasn't passed unexpectedly because others accelerated and blew past her. Her JOCK PUT THE CORNELIO LOCK on her and took HER out of the race. If you can't see that, I suggest you NEVER EVER wager on a horse race again UNTIL you learn to watch races better.

If you simply don't want any legal issues for nefarious rides, simply ban the topic BUT please don't insult the people who can actually see bullshit when we see it.

5) BULLSHIT PA. I complimented Jose just the other day for changing races positively for his aggressive rides on a speed track. I have complimented them on great rides. Yes, I call a spade a spade. Honest people simply have a disease, it's called being honest. So, don't act like I just call out the bad, I call out the good and GREAT as well, when it comes to the Ortiz's.

[EasyGoer89]

1) No PA. I say it like it is and you hate that. Reason why you hate it that I say it like it is, is because it can cause you legal issues. I finally grasped that and I learned to speak code, like you asked me to do .

2) Are you ABSOLUTELY KIDDING ME BEYOND BELIEF HERE? This kid didn't need to scrub and whip at all. If he just didn't choke the horse out, he's up by 3 easy in this race on 3/18/17. If you don't believe me, ask the talented people out there that actually know what they are talking about. You can start and stop with CJ, your only moderator.

2A) SHE DIDN'T QUICKLY GET PASSED BY 2 RIVALS!!!!! She quickly got choked out to death to DEFER TO 2 RIVALS. One day, when you actually learn to race watch, I expect a sincere apology and thank you for the education.

3) Well that's the understatement of the last 2 decades......

I've defended Irad, you KNOW that.....but when I see a reason to critique, I will critique.

And he's NOT my favorite jockey to critique. I'm an EQUAL opportunity jockey lover/hater. If Ramon ever stiffed a horse, I'd call him out on it. He NEVER EVER DID. If Irad gives a great ride, I say: WOW, AWESOME RIDE BY IRAD. If Cornelio blows a mount, I state why his ride deserved an "F" in terms of performance. It's called being FAIR. You may think I am not but I am. Again, since we never met in person, you only see words on a screen. If we met in person, I guaranty, I bet my mother's life, your opinion of me would change in a heartbeat.



4) That is what people in denial (of nefarious tactics being employed) do. My wife isn't cheating on me, maybe she needs some alone time. Have you ever seen Irad ride a horse that he has OBVIOUS intentions on winning on? Have you taken close notice on a horse that Irad is OBVIOUSLY not trying to win on?

I HAVE. I have studied tape on this kid and his brother, 29 times in a row at 3 am, to see what their tendencies are. I study who they ride for, how they look around at the gate when they care or don't care. Shit I even know what their teeth look like. Not because I am obsessed with them but BECAUSE I am a pro gambler and I need the frieken edge.

For you to take a cursory look at this race and speak to people who LIVE off this game from a gambling perspective and dismiss us as nuts, is a slap to the people who keep this game alive, your site moving and the industry afloat.

3A) I am so DUMBFOUNDED for words, a librarian couldn't assist me.....SIMPLY, JUST WOW.....For many years, I was told that I have an amazing talent for watching races. I never ever believed a single person who said that. I thought people wanted to borrow from me, beat me to steal money from me, use me etc. Now, it's hitting home. I humbly do see that some other people don't see. How you can say that, someone that I respect, is unfathomable to my eyes, my brain and my soul. Frieken Stupifies me.

She wasn't passed unexpectedly because others accelerated and blew past her. Her JOCK PUT THE CORNELIO LOCK on her and took HER out of the race. If you can't see that, I suggest you NEVER EVER wager on a horse race again UNTIL you learn to watch races better.

If you simply don't want any legal issues for nefarious rides, simply ban the topic BUT please don't insult the people who can actually see bullshit when we see it.

5) BULLSHIT PA. I complimented Jose just the other day for changing races positively for his aggressive rides on a speed track. I have complimented them on great rides. Yes, I call a spade a spade. Honest people simply have a disease, it's called being honest. So, don't act like I just call out the bad, I call out the good and GREAT as well, when it comes to the Ortiz's.

Is curry playing tonight?

(Sorry, couldn't resist!) :D

[EMD4ME]

Is curry playing tonight?

(Sorry, couldn't resist!) :D

Vic was a prick to me but I miss him here. He hates me but I miss his additions to PA.

[EasyGoer89]

Vic was a prick to me but I miss him here. He hates me but I miss his additions to PA.

I agree I miss Vic here too.

[davew]

I am still scratching my head. If he did what you said, he intentionally pulled for half a lap, isn't that a lot of effort?

I have to admit, he isn't no Julie Krone, who in her 'prime' would of let that horse squeeze through a couple others or between the inside horse and the rail - even if there was only room for two thirds of a horse.

Maybe this Ortiz guy doesn't like the idea of going down on a horse in the front of the pack, just to see if he gets trampled by others, gets killed, paralyzed, broken bones and bed rest for ??? months or the rest of his life.

[EMD4ME]

I agree I miss Vic here too.

I hope VIC is ok.

[Mr. Pick 5]

I hope VIC is ok.

Well aside from being morbidly obese and terrible at announcing he seems fine...atleast hes done well in some handicapping competitions to put in a positive perspective

[EMD4ME]

I am still scratching my head. If he did what you said, he intentionally pulled for half a lap, isn't that a lot of effort?

I have to admit, he isn't no Julie Krone, who in her 'prime' would of let that horse squeeze through a couple others or between the inside horse and the rail - even if there was only room for two thirds of a horse.

Maybe this Ortiz guy doesn't like the idea of going down on a horse in the front of the pack, just to see if he gets trampled by others, gets killed, paralyzed, broken bones and bed rest for ??? months or the rest of his life.

That horse was done after 3/8. You try running with emergency brakes on for a major portion of a long race. You're done.


2) Have you studied how he rides when he's obviously "live" in HD of both the head on and the pan?

Have you watched how he rides when his horses unexpectedly don't do well in HD of the pan and head on in HD?


I have. Over and over again. I have to say, I can't say it's because he stiffed a horse.

But I can definitively say that when he is 100% live, he rides a whole lot different.....

[ultracapper]

That 1/5 fav in that race broke perfect, and the 2 horses that ultimately took the lead did also. But none of the 3 were hell-bent on getting the lead. There was no commitment from any of them as the gate opened. It was only in the early strides of the race when the other 2 jocks took advantage of the timid move by the fav. The fav just needed an easy attention getter to take the lead unopposed.

If that makes me nuts, I'm happy to be a crazy ass all day long.

[SG4]

Ortiz breaks in front, yes, but he actually doesn't start "taking back" his mount until AFTER he is passed by not 1, but 2 horses who were clearly going to get to the front over Terra Promessa. Indeed, BEFORE even Ortiz starts to take her back, Stauffer is already declaring her being taken back, when in fact she's being passed, not taken back...yet.

You don't see Ortiz change his position in the saddle, and you don't see Terra Promessa's mouth getting "yanked" until AFTER she is passed and is obviously not going to make the front going into the turn.


Not that anyone necessarily asked for my 2 cents, but IMHO I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle of the viewpoints here. Was the ride criminal? No. Was it garbage? Yes. From my eyes, Irad decides to put a hold on quite early in the race, when the 2 horses from his outside have about 1/4-1/2 a length on him. The smarter tactic (in hindsight) would've been to let his horse continue to stride out, hold that inside position at the same pace & by the time they hit the turn the ground saved will put her back on the lead where she can get a clear trip, albeit possibly pressured on the outside. As such a heavy favorite I would think staying out of trouble & a trip like that would be just fine. In that split second though Irad probably thought he can get her to settle behind a nice pocket of 2 speed horses & that she was so much the best that it wouldn't be an issue.

I think the bigger problem was in the race preparation - Irad loves to put the hold on & work out a stalking/closing trip, but it seems like this filly prefers a nice long rein, and rating wasn't her strong-point, imagine Asmussen could've mentioned this beforehand. I wonder if strategy was discussed at all, if Irad said he's concerned about the speed to his outside & he'll decide what to do from the break, that's when a trainer needs to speak up if sitting behind horses is a problem. I often hear trainers say they don't give any instructions & that's why they put the best jocks up on the horse, so who knows what helpful words, if any, are spoken about beforehand.

And I watched this replay on mute, had no $ involved, so an unbiased opinion.

[Ruffian1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iFdkHwkpGg


Thank you for the PP's and the video.

I am going to try and understand this race as best I can given what I have. What I don't have is the instructions, a full bio on if this rider loves to take speed back or not, if the trainer allows riders to "ride them like they own them" ( which I could never afford to do) but riding Maryland riders my whole life is not like riding elite riders or training elite horses either. Don't get me wrong, Md. riders were everything from HOF riders to pretty darn poor ones but all in all, if you knew who to ride on what horse, you could do just fine. And some riders , if you were lucky enough to get them, could win on damn near anything.
That said, here is what I see followed with a couple of comments .

They break at 41 on the tape. At 43 he looks over to see where, if and who any pressure might come from. His long hold tells me that if he does not make a solo lead he feels he will not be crossed over on, otherwise, the hands would have been further up the neck than his crotch to make sure he was not, if that was what he was told.
At 46 he takes a 2nd look . At 47 his hands stay back but he still thinks he can slide into the turn and not be crossed over on. ( An assumption but that's what I see).
At 51 things have changed. He realizes he will be shut off and knows he must get off heels before they switch leads. At that point he needs to be another length back from his current spot or risk getting dropped.
At this point, let's give credit where credit is due. The rider of the 4 knows EXACTLY what he is doing and knows that his best shot to win is to force the favorite to check and eat dirt on the fence.
What is getting lost in this is the 2 gets rank when her rider grabs her to get away from heels. That happens a lot with speed types or temperamental horses that don't really care for that type of ride.
From 54 to 1:27 she is fighting the rider and wasting valuable energy. She finally resettles starting at about 127.
As miserable as it is to watch by 147 of the race I am saying to myself, ok, you are 1-5 , show it. She still has some run in her I am fairly confident. She has relaxed the last 20 seconds and gotten her composure back.
It looks like the rider is ok with her starting to move from in between horses around the turn at about 148-153 but then she gets steadied again between horses.
As a side note, and speaking in general terms, not knowing this exact horse, speed when they are the best horse can get outrun early and still win but when they are pinned virtually the entire race and their right eye covered up for just about every step, more times than not, that type of running style horse will say, screw it, I'm done.
Having a clean right eye ( no pressure towards the outside eye any closer than a neck behind), allows a speed horse or a type that is not a solid stalker/closer, to at least feel halfway comfortable even though they much prefer to be in front( with a clean right eye and not in an eyeball to eyeball duel). This goes for just about every speed horse at any track.

At 156 the rider is asking for all she might have and she actually gives him something . She is trying and he is asking. At 207 his last chance is to angle out away from dirt and clear and hope that no dirt spray will help. He switches sticks to his left hand and shoots for an open run to his right. But as he starts to try and gain that spot, the 5 outside of him angles inward to keep the 2 down inside, thus driving the favorite back down behind the 6 horse . That ends any run from the 2 . The horse is mentally defeated and physically tired.
I see no evidence of the rider shutting the ride down until he is a well beaten 5th at about 221.

A couple of observations as a handicapper:
When I see 9-6-0-1, I wonder how much heart when things go wrong does that horse have.
The form shows her rate off horses with outside posts where see was controlling the horses inside of her but the one time she is inside and wins from off the pace, she is rank, which she was when pinned in this race.
I see 2 races where she was looked in the eye and stopped. One was the Oaks so no problem understanding that but the other race she was even money. So whats up with that? My guess is she is a very talented horse but needs certain things her own way to get her best effort. And today those things did not go her way. She did show effort today., but was also very rank and tough to get to settle for about 3/8ths to 1/2 a mile of the race.

If I am the trainer, I am pissed. But, if he told the rider to "see what happens leaving there", which I hear a lot these days, well, that is exactly what the rider did. If there was no firm " make the lead" or take back and get outside, or whatever, then the trainer left it up to the rider AND the other riders to set the race up for his horse. Can't bitch about that . He had to know that was a possibility.
Also, I don't follow this rider but if a speed rider was needed and this guy is not necessarily a speed rider, why did he get the mount?
I know I am dating myself but when I had a speed horse and wanted the lead or position I did not get the best rider in the room in Vincent Bracciale, I got Leroy Moyers or Bobbie Gilbert. I didn't get Jo Jo Ladner for that speed horse, I got Joe Rocco. I didn't get Mark Johnston for that speed horse, I got Larry Saumell.
My job was tough enough with the riders who's styles fit my horses. The last thing I needed was Jimbo clamping down Tor's Baby until the veins in his arms popped when I could have Tony Agnello shooting ducks on her.
And again, Jimbo was the best rider in that room. But IMHO, not on certain horses. And I didn't need Kindest Cut laying 4th inside. I wanted him on the damn lead, and that is where Larry put him.

So without knowing what was said by the trainer, much is left for speculation. But next time out, you will know exactly what was said, because the same rider will be back on her if the trainer is ok with the results, or Santana will be back up. Or, a speed type rider if Santana is not available or she runs at a different track. And yes, post position will be big just as it was in this race.

If the 2 and the 4 had switched post positions, I don't think we would be having this discussion. She could have and probably would have been fine a 1/2 a length off the inside horse and with a clean right eye down the backside. She would have moved at that point whenever pressure got closer than a neck to her right or if that never came, would have leaned on the 4 inside her around the turn and most likely drawn off turning for home.
And I am sorry to not agree with those that think the rider wanted to mess with the show pool. Quite honestly, customers assume that the goal they have in mind when they come to the track is a goal chased by everyone there. That is just not true.
A rider like that, in a race like this, for a trainer like that, with a career full of big paydays in front of him would not think in those terms. No way .

I know, some don't believe that. That's fine. But knowing Ramon from my years with him, he would say the same thing. If you don't believe me, maybe you would believe him.

There is my honest input on this race.

Hope all this has helped.

Good luck everyone.

[Andy Asaro]

Great post Ruffinan1

Asmussen did comment on the ride after the race.

He said: "That was a debacle. You've got to get along with her, you just do. Can't fight with her. She knows who she wants to be, and that was not good."

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/220503/streamline-rides-path-to-victory-in-azeri

[cj]

2) Are you ABSOLUTELY KIDDING ME BEYOND BELIEF HERE? This kid didn't need to scrub and whip at all. If he just didn't choke the horse out, he's up by 3 easy in this race on 3/18/17. If you don't believe me, ask the talented people out there that actually know what they are talking about. You can start and stop with CJ, your only moderator.


I think it was a bad ride, very bad actually. It makes no sense not to take that horse to the lead. This is especially true when it turned out the pace was pretty slow. Irad does this all the time, apparently thinking he is the new Pat Day. I'm not taking it any farther than that.

[Ruffian1]

Great post Ruffinan1

Asmussen did comment on the ride after the race.

He said: "That was a debacle. You've got to get along with her, you just do. Can't fight with her. She knows who she wants to be, and that was not good."

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/220503/streamline-rides-path-to-victory-in-azeri


Thank you Andy.

I would think he told the rider exactly that. And if so, he needed to send with that tough inside post to allow her a non fighting position. Then keep the right eye clear from that point on.
That could have cost her the race as well but at least she would not have been fighting him around the 1st turn and halfway down the backside.

But without a true commitment to avoid what happened knowing full well the inside post she had was an all or nothing proposition for her style , likes and dislikes, that commitment needed to be addressed in the paddock prior to riders up.
If it was, shame on the rider. The kid didn't listen. But if it was not, shame on the trainer for letting that inside post come back to haunt her.

[ultracapper]

Great post Ruffian1.

Excellent read.

[cj]

Thank you Andy.

I would think he told the rider exactly that. And if so, he needed to send with that tough inside post to allow her a non fighting position. Then keep the right eye clear from that point on.
That could have cost her the race as well but at least she would not have been fighting him around the 1st turn and halfway down the backside.

But without a true commitment to avoid what happened knowing full well the inside post she had was an all or nothing proposition for her style , likes and dislikes, that commitment needed to be addressed in the paddock prior to riders up.
If it was, shame on the rider. The kid didn't listen. But if it was not, shame on the trainer for letting that inside post come back to haunt her.

As I mentioned earlier, Asmussen asked for it when he took the local rider off, that had ridden her perfectly many times, for the "name" guy.

[Ruffian1]

As I mentioned earlier, Asmussen asked for it when he took the local rider off, that had ridden her perfectly many times, for the "name" guy.

Absolutely CJ.

That move backfires more than people think.

[whodoyoulike]

... Had I known he was going to change her optimal style (running loose on the lead) I would have bet all others ...

Really??

Just take a sec and re-think about your statement above.

[whodoyoulike]

yes, because all 21 year olds in society with 'bright futures' always take the 'most logical' route.

I didn't see this race. But, you need to realize, that the jockey's race perspective as it unfolds during a race is completely different from a spectator's POV as he views the race from a monitor or from the stands which is probably the reason for not taking the 'most logical' route (as you would).

Btw, are you really the individual who was previously posting as SRU?

I'm asking because I've recently seen a few posts speculating that you are.

[EMD4ME]

Well aside from being morbidly obese and terrible at announcing he seems fine...atleast hes done well in some handicapping competitions to put in a positive perspective

I was referring to his health....but I detect your sarcasm. :ThmbUp:

He was a prick to me for a LOOOONG TIME but even with that said, I want the man to do well.

[EMD4ME]

Thank you for the PP's and the video.

I am going to try and understand this race as best I can given what I have. What I don't have is the instructions, a full bio on if this rider loves to take speed back or not, if the trainer allows riders to "ride them like they own them" ( which I could never afford to do) but riding Maryland riders my whole life is not like riding elite riders or training elite horses either. Don't get me wrong, Md. riders were everything from HOF riders to pretty darn poor ones but all in all, if you knew who to ride on what horse, you could do just fine. And some riders , if you were lucky enough to get them, could win on damn near anything.
That said, here is what I see followed with a couple of comments .

They break at 41 on the tape. At 43 he looks over to see where, if and who any pressure might come from. His long hold tells me that if he does not make a solo lead he feels he will not be crossed over on, otherwise, the hands would have been further up the neck than his crotch to make sure he was not, if that was what he was told.
At 46 he takes a 2nd look . At 47 his hands stay back but he still thinks he can slide into the turn and not be crossed over on. ( An assumption but that's what I see).
At 51 things have changed. He realizes he will be shut off and knows he must get off heels before they switch leads. At that point he needs to be another length back from his current spot or risk getting dropped.
At this point, let's give credit where credit is due. The rider of the 4 knows EXACTLY what he is doing and knows that his best shot to win is to force the favorite to check and eat dirt on the fence.
What is getting lost in this is the 2 gets rank when her rider grabs her to get away from heels. That happens a lot with speed types or temperamental horses that don't really care for that type of ride.
From 54 to 1:27 she is fighting the rider and wasting valuable energy. She finally resettles starting at about 127.
As miserable as it is to watch by 147 of the race I am saying to myself, ok, you are 1-5 , show it. She still has some run in her I am fairly confident. She has relaxed the last 20 seconds and gotten her composure back.
It looks like the rider is ok with her starting to move from in between horses around the turn at about 148-153 but then she gets steadied again between horses.
As a side note, and speaking in general terms, not knowing this exact horse, speed when they are the best horse can get outrun early and still win but when they are pinned virtually the entire race and their right eye covered up for just about every step, more times than not, that type of running style horse will say, screw it, I'm done.
Having a clean right eye ( no pressure towards the outside eye any closer than a neck behind), allows a speed horse or a type that is not a solid stalker/closer, to at least feel halfway comfortable even though they much prefer to be in front( with a clean right eye and not in an eyeball to eyeball duel). This goes for just about every speed horse at any track.

At 156 the rider is asking for all she might have and she actually gives him something . She is trying and he is asking. At 207 his last chance is to angle out away from dirt and clear and hope that no dirt spray will help. He switches sticks to his left hand and shoots for an open run to his right. But as he starts to try and gain that spot, the 5 outside of him angles inward to keep the 2 down inside, thus driving the favorite back down behind the 6 horse . That ends any run from the 2 . The horse is mentally defeated and physically tired.
I see no evidence of the rider shutting the ride down until he is a well beaten 5th at about 221.

A couple of observations as a handicapper:
When I see 9-6-0-1, I wonder how much heart when things go wrong does that horse have.
The form shows her rate off horses with outside posts where see was controlling the horses inside of her but the one time she is inside and wins from off the pace, she is rank, which she was when pinned in this race.
I see 2 races where she was looked in the eye and stopped. One was the Oaks so no problem understanding that but the other race she was even money. So whats up with that? My guess is she is a very talented horse but needs certain things her own way to get her best effort. And today those things did not go her way. She did show effort today., but was also very rank and tough to get to settle for about 3/8ths to 1/2 a mile of the race.

If I am the trainer, I am pissed. But, if he told the rider to "see what happens leaving there", which I hear a lot these days, well, that is exactly what the rider did. If there was no firm " make the lead" or take back and get outside, or whatever, then the trainer left it up to the rider AND the other riders to set the race up for his horse. Can't bitch about that . He had to know that was a possibility.
Also, I don't follow this rider but if a speed rider was needed and this guy is not necessarily a speed rider, why did he get the mount?
I know I am dating myself but when I had a speed horse and wanted the lead or position I did not get the best rider in the room in Vincent Bracciale, I got Leroy Moyers or Bobbie Gilbert. I didn't get Jo Jo Ladner for that speed horse, I got Joe Rocco. I didn't get Mark Johnston for that speed horse, I got Larry Saumell.
My job was tough enough with the riders who's styles fit my horses. The last thing I needed was Jimbo clamping down Tor's Baby until the veins in his arms popped when I could have Tony Agnello shooting ducks on her.
And again, Jimbo was the best rider in that room. But IMHO, not on certain horses. And I didn't need Kindest Cut laying 4th inside. I wanted him on the damn lead, and that is where Larry put him.

So without knowing what was said by the trainer, much is left for speculation. But next time out, you will know exactly what was said, because the same rider will be back on her if the trainer is ok with the results, or Santana will be back up. Or, a speed type rider if Santana is not available or she runs at a different track. And yes, post position will be big just as it was in this race.

If the 2 and the 4 had switched post positions, I don't think we would be having this discussion. She could have and probably would have been fine a 1/2 a length off the inside horse and with a clean right eye down the backside. She would have moved at that point whenever pressure got closer than a neck to her right or if that never came, would have leaned on the 4 inside her around the turn and most likely drawn off turning for home.
And I am sorry to not agree with those that think the rider wanted to mess with the show pool. Quite honestly, customers assume that the goal they have in mind when they come to the track is a goal chased by everyone there. That is just not true.
A rider like that, in a race like this, for a trainer like that, with a career full of big paydays in front of him would not think in those terms. No way .

I know, some don't believe that. That's fine. But knowing Ramon from my years with him, he would say the same thing. If you don't believe me, maybe you would believe him.

There is my honest input on this race.

Hope all this has helped.

Good luck everyone.

Ruffian1, I can't thank you enough for your opinion. I've always liked it when you post, as your insight is wonderful.

I won't comment or reply on what you said as I disagree on some points but I wanted to say thank you and don't ever forget how much you are appreciated here.

One thing I will say, I heard that Ramon was mentoring Irad so I am not surprised that he wouldn't think anything was "up".

Please let him know the guy with the mother who was in the same bed as him at Weill Cornell Medical Center, says hello.

[whodoyoulike]

Racetrack Playa, thanks for providing the video link. It's nice to see the video whenever there's a discussion about a race to get an idea of people's complaints.


Ruffian1, I also felt your analysis was spot on. I don't remember anyone else mentioning being taken up as she gets too close to the front runners heels. I thought her running was disrupted a few times during the race which is always difficult to overcome, IMO.

[AltonKelsey]

I mentioned it it two diff posts.

" cut off"
"squeezed "

[whodoyoulike]

Sorry in long threads I usually read the OP and whenever I come into the thread. I don't recall seeing it.

Just glad others noticed it.

[AltonKelsey]

no prob. The idea of this exercise was to get people to look at this objectively, not in a rage.

Think we have mission accomplished.

[EasyGoer89]

The she maybe wild horse came to an alarming halt in the pippin stake, isn't the first thing you do as a jock (or the connections) say WHATEVER YOU DO don't get caught behind miss mabee wild? Isn't that the first thing you make sure doesn't happen?

Also in that pippin race, the promessa horse, on her own, easily outran mabee wild and streamline in the first part of that race, so even if she was just 'on her own' here shouldn't she have been to effortlessly be in front of those horses, especially 'mabee'?

harness racing has a worse reputation than tbreds but no way an elite harness driver would have allowed that to happen to him in a big race on a 1/5 speed horse.

[rastajenk]

no prob. The idea of this exercise was to get people to look at this objectively, not in a rage.

Think we have mission accomplished.That's got to be a PA First. :jump:

[Andy Asaro]

Anyone know if Betfair had in race wagering on this race? Would be interesting to see the changes from start to finish.

[Ruffian1]

Ruffian1, I can't thank you enough for your opinion. I've always liked it when you post, as your insight is wonderful.

I won't comment or reply on what you said as I disagree on some points but I wanted to say thank you and don't ever forget how much you are appreciated here.

One thing I will say, I heard that Ramon was mentoring Irad so I am not surprised that he wouldn't think anything was "up".

Please let him know the guy with the mother who was in the same bed as him at Weill Cornell Medical Center, says hello.

Thanks EMD. I don't see Ramon much anymore but do have a mutual friend I stay close with that sees him now and then and we trade hellos that way these days.
I knew you would not agree with everything I said I that is fine. All I wanted to do was try and give a totally unbiased, experienced opinion on the race for you and everyone to see. After that, it's up to each person to take from it what they want.
If indeed Ramon is mentoring Irad, he will have plenty to talk about on this topic. Irad seemed to think( just guessing from how he rode her the 1st 10 seconds) that she would flash more early speed on her own and he was looking for relax from the moment the doors opened. When I saw the PP's, it never entered my mind that she was a type to run off and not relax with things her own way. If he had just nudged her a little the first few strides, and then taken that nice long relaxing hold of her, I am convinced she would have had an easy early lead. Not easy in terms of lengths but easy in terms of effort to get there. The 4 would have had to challenge down the backside, but the 2 was superior and it would not have taken a ton of effort to shake the 4 off and keep her right eye clear IMO.
It was when he looked over the 1st time with that long hold that told the other riders of his intentions. The jock on the 4 horse saw him look over with that long hold and said thank you very much and took full advantage. THAT, if anything, was Irad's biggest mistake in this whole race IMO.

In my experience, riders might be great at what they do but reading the racing form and seeing what you or I see can be a challenge for many of them. Just because you are a rider it does not mean you can read a racing form any better than a novice might. I've seen way to many riders think they read the form and see something that I sure has heck don't see. So I would take that element out by having a frank discussion about my horses likes and dislikes, usually the morning of the race. That saved the paddock talk for a meet and greet for owners or a quick refresher before riders up.
I have to think the trainer did the same thing. And if he did, his actions into the next race will speak volumes.
I don't think you will see a repeat of that performance anytime soon.
All the best EMD. Keep up the good work .

[EMD4ME]

Last I bumped into Ramon we discussed his work ethic and talents....sigh...

He mentioned how he watched replays of his mounts and his opponents mounts. So impressive.

He also mentioned how he took some special balancing class/lessons and had experience I believe in equestrian events. We discussed how his #1 mission was to make the horse feel like he wasn't on him/her. To be 1 with the horse.

The other topic was his hands. Best hands I've seen.

Sigh.....

[Ruffian1]

Last I bumped into Ramon we discussed his work ethic and talents....sigh...

He mentioned how he watched replays of his mounts and his opponents mounts. So impressive.

He also mentioned how he took some special balancing class/lessons and had experience I believe in equestrian events. We discussed how his #1 mission was to make the horse feel like he wasn't on him/her. To be 1 with the horse.

The other topic was his hands. Best hands I've seen.

Sigh.....

Ramon was always trying to improve in ways others did not.
What a rare and special person he is.

I know from your posts that Irad vexes you in NY. Some rides can do that for sure. Plenty did that to me in my day.
Maybe try and predict how he will not ride a favorite in certain races and see if maybe that helps .
How sweet would that be to have what you perceive to be mistakes and I assume plenty are, actually work well for you .
Try to turn that negative into a positive.
If it works it will be like stealing.
Worth a shot and it beats all the frustration for sure.
Even if it doesn't work it might provide more incite to how he thinks.
Try and see past the stiff stuff to find something that will give you an edge.
Not saying your wrong but you need to redirect your energy on this topic towards something that can help you instead of drive your blood pressure up.
You can do that. You are that good.
So get after it and keep me posted. :ThmbUp:

[EMD4ME]

Ramon was always trying to improve in ways others did not.
What a rare and special person he is.

I know from your posts that Irad vexes you in NY. Some rides can do that for sure. Plenty did that to me in my day.
Maybe try and predict how he will not ride a favorite in certain races and see if maybe that helps .
How sweet would that be to have what you perceive to be mistakes and I assume plenty are, actually work well for you .
Try to turn that negative into a positive.
If it works it will be like stealing.
Worth a shot and it beats all the frustration for sure.
Even if it doesn't work it might provide more incite to how he thinks.
Try and see past the stiff stuff to find something that will give you an edge.
Not saying your wrong but you need to redirect your energy on this topic towards something that can help you instead of drive your blood pressure up.
You can do that. You are that good.
So get after it and keep me posted. :ThmbUp:


Great advice. I've done 2 things different in the past year

1) if the pace is questionable, assume Irad will not go.

2) leverage irads tendencies (like you said).

Its hard to believe but I am not on an irad crusade.

I'm just another guy commenting on this race . That's all.

[Murph]

There is my honest input on this race.

Hope all this has helped.

Good luck everyone.You describe some very subtle racing maneuvers by jockey and horse both. Information that is very difficult for an average handicapper to understand by passively watching and reacting to the race action.

Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge, Ruffian. I won't review any race replay as lazily as I have been doing this winter again. It will take some full time study to for me to find and recognize the points you make on my own.

I know I am lacking (work/study) race replay review skills and you've helped me realize how much improvement I can actually make in this area of advanced handicapping.

BTW If you have time, would you look at that Sparkle Slew race posted in the Changing Leads thread? (JK*.5)

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2139929&postcount=7

[PaceAdvantage]

They break at 41 on the tape. At 43 he looks over to see where, if and who any pressure might come from. His long hold tells me that if he does not make a solo lead he feels he will not be crossed over on, otherwise, the hands would have been further up the neck than his crotch to make sure he was not, if that was what he was told.
At 46 he takes a 2nd look . At 47 his hands stay back but he still thinks he can slide into the turn and not be crossed over on. ( An assumption but that's what I see).Hey EMD, How the hell is this any different than what I wrote? Yet he gets thanks and I get "you don't know what you're talking about."?

At no point did I ever say he was gunning for the lead early. But he certainly doesn't have a hammerlock (like you claim is going on, BEFORE he gets passed) on the horse until AFTER he starts being passed...that's all I was trying to say. But you keep saying she's being TAKEN BACK basically from the get go...hell, she wasn't even being taken back when VIC said she was being taken back. If that were true, she would have never made the front.

FOUL!

[Ruffian1]

Hey EMD, How the hell is this any different than what I wrote? Yet he gets thanks and I get "you don't know what you're talking about."?

At no point did I ever say he was gunning for the lead early. But he certainly doesn't have a hammerlock (like you claim is going on, BEFORE he gets passed) on the horse until AFTER he starts being passed...that's all I was trying to say. But you keep saying she's being TAKEN BACK basically from the get go...hell, she wasn't even being taken back when VIC said she was being taken back. If that were true, she would have never made the front.

FOUL!


IMO I see slack albeit slight in the reins until he needs to get into her mouth to get her out of a fast closing hole or risk getting dropped. That too me is certainly not taking her back, but instead, trying for an easy relaxed position. Again, I think he was surprised that the outside could cross over but I do feel looking over so early with that deep seat and hands way down prompted the outside rider to say thank you, and proceed to slam the door on her. The other outside jock was just following the 4 horses lead.
That's my 2 cents.

[Murph]

FOUL!
Gentlemen, please. We see feathers are ruffled and turf is violated here.

Look at the higher quality level of the recent posting here from new and regular users both. Let's keep the positive momentum going if we can.

[Prof.Factor]

Irad Oritz Jr.'s stats when riding the Odds-On favorite in a Stakes race during last 18 months.
Non-NewYork and Graded numbers are low.

Odds-on Fav : 23

Finished 1st: 11 (48%)
Finished 2nd: 8
Finished 3rd: 1
Finished Off: 3 (odds: 2/5, 1/5, 1/5)

Odds 1/5: 3/5
Odds 2/5: 5/7
Odds 3/5: 1/4
Odds 4/5: 2/7

NewYork: 10/19
non-NY : 1/4

GradedStk : 2/10
Non-Graded: 9/13

[EMD4ME]

Hey EMD, How the hell is this any different than what I wrote? Yet he gets thanks and I get "you don't know what you're talking about."?

At no point did I ever say he was gunning for the lead early. But he certainly doesn't have a hammerlock (like you claim is going on, BEFORE he gets passed) on the horse until AFTER he starts being passed...that's all I was trying to say. But you keep saying she's being TAKEN BACK basically from the get go...hell, she wasn't even being taken back when VIC said she was being taken back. If that were true, she would have never made the front.

FOUL!

new york foul is on emd4me. Thats emds 2nd and New York is over the limit.

2 shots for PA. 2 shots...

You just gave me flashbacks of 1994 NYC basketball. Ah the good ol days.:)

Honestly. Im tired. No energy to argue on this one anymore.

2nd answer... I like you more :pound:

(No offense ruffian-that was a semi personal joke )

[Ruffian1]

You describe some very subtle racing maneuvers by jockey and horse both. Information that is very difficult for an average handicapper to understand by passively watching and reacting to the race action.

Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge, Ruffian. I won't review any race replay as lazily as I have been doing this winter again. It will take some full time study to for me to find and recognize the points you make on my own.

I know I am lacking (work/study) race replay review skills and you've helped me realize how much improvement I can actually make in this area of advanced handicapping.

BTW If you have time, would you look at that Sparkle Slew race posted in the Changing Leads thread? (JK*.5)

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2139929&postcount=7



I just copied this over to the changing leads thread. Guess I should have done that to begin with. Sorry about that.

I see the horse switch to her right ( correct )lead at 1:18 which was very late. And as you can see, that is exactly when the horse starts to draw away. I try and liken it to a boxer only using one arm to throw punches. That arm gets pretty tired if it's the only one doing the work. Using both provides more stamina as well as balance and lessens muscle fatigue in one certain area. Nothing worse than playing a speed horse that is still clear at the 1/8th pole but on the wrong lead. You just know it probably will not end as well as it should. Sometimes they hang on, but more times than not, the get nailed.
Horses that run counter clockwise like the U.S. does are taught to run down straightaways on their right lead and around turns on their left lead. This is one of the first things they learn months before coming to the track.
It is true that sometimes the older horse won't switch because it might be a comfort, or lack of comfort thing going on. That is seen more in cheaper racing venues with older horses usually but not always. Switching back and forth can be a comfort thing as well. Or, on turf, mud or slop, or a cuppy sandy track, basically a surface they are struggling with, it can be that they are not comfortable with the footing and don't trust it. So they switch to find more solid footing. It really depends on too many things to say it's only one or two things.

When you see a maiden not switching, it can be that the horse is or has developed a bad habit. That habit is VERY hard to break. Some cheap speeds get so mentally stressed out that when pressured, they can't seem to remember to switch. But if that same horse has a comfortable lead as it turns for home, they might very well switch on that occasion.
Some still just will not switch period. And while that cheapens all horses because they can never reach their potential , they are not always cheaper horses.
Lite The Fuse hated to switch leads. Rarely if ever did. He was a hell of a horse even without doing so . Think how good he would have been had he switched turning for home. His offspring rarely did either which IMO is why he threw mostly cheap one dimensional speed horses.
Knowing a track that you play well and knowing the horses that do not switch can really make throwing speed out much easier. If it looks like a duel they will most probably fail. But if they are a type that WILL switch if left alone turning for home, and the pace suggests the horse will be clear at that spot, you can decide if it is worth the gamble to play the horse in hope of the horse switching.
It's homework yes. But it is knowledge that most you are playing against do not have. Therefore, too me, it's worth it both to use the horse and to not use the horse depending on the situation.

Lastly, jocks trying to MAKE a horse switch can work but honestly, it does not work all that often even if the rider is successful. If it's discomfort, they just made it worse. If it's stubborn, the horse probably does not appreciate it. I get why they try, but in my experience, you really need the horse to want to do it to have your best shot at success. Now if they just need a subtle reminder, a very slight weight shift or a light tap on the other shoulder with the stick turned down can do the trick. But again, life is good when they just do it themselves and it's never easy when they don't for whatever reason.
Hope that helps.

[ultracapper]

IMO I see slack albeit slight in the reins until he needs to get into her mouth to get her out of a fast closing hole or risk getting dropped. That too me is certainly not taking her back, but instead, trying for an easy relaxed position. Again, I think he was surprised that the outside could cross over but I do feel looking over so early with that deep seat and hands way down prompted the outside rider to say thank you, and proceed to slam the door on her. The other outside jock was just following the 4 horses lead.
That's my 2 cents.

That's exactly how I see the first 100 yards.

[cj]

That's exactly how I see the first 100 yards.

So in other words he just assumed the other jockeys would hand the 1 to 5 favorite the lead. Maybe he thought he was still in New York. 😀

[Ruffian1]

So in other words he just assumed the other jockeys would hand the 1 to 5 favorite the lead. Maybe he thought he was still in New York. 😀

I have a feeling he thought this horse was a bit speed crazy as every action early seemed to be about relax and not burn energy early. Making the lead seemed to be in his mind, a forgone conclusion.
Boy was that a misread.

[VigorsTheGrey]

I have a feeling he thought this horse was a bit speed crazy as every action early seemed to be about relax and not burn energy early. Making the lead seemed to be in his mind, a forgone conclusion.
Boy was that a misread.

Shouldn't a horse to trained to exert equal pressure on both sides always instead of having leads, left and right...I guess I don't understand or maybe leads are inevitable because of the syncopation of a horses natural gait...but if I pedal a bicycle, I would not favor or overexert one leg then switch back and forth...I would maintain pressure evenly, just speed up my peddling...

[EMD4ME]

So in other words he just assumed the other jockeys would hand the 1 to 5 favorite the lead. Maybe he thought he was still in New York. 😀

:lol::pound::lol::pound::lol::pound:

That was snot moving funny !!!!!

[LottaKash]

but if I pedal a bicycle, I would not favor or overexert one leg then switch back and forth...I would maintain pressure evenly, just speed up my peddling...

Not the same thing....They don't pedal..

Horses lead, either right or left...Nature of the beast...

Still, I have hammered the bike-pedals thruout my years, but even so, there was still a more/most stronger leg that was favored all the same... Takes a whole lot of training to get that out.. I just cranked and rode..

[ultracapper]

So in other words he just assumed the other jockeys would hand the 1 to 5 favorite the lead. Maybe he thought he was still in New York. 😀

Have you finally received your certification? I know it was something you've been longing for since the moment you realized there was actually something called a Sigma whatever whatever DOE. I congratulate you.;)

I think he was thinking too much and got cute. Like Mike Smith says...when you have the best horse, just get it out there and keep it out of trouble.

[EasyGoer89]

As I mentioned earlier, Asmussen asked for it when he took the local rider off, that had ridden her perfectly many times, for the "name" guy.

Bingo.

[cj]

I have a feeling he thought this horse was a bit speed crazy as every action early seemed to be about relax and not burn energy early. Making the lead seemed to be in his mind, a forgone conclusion.
Boy was that a misread.

And that, I think in a nutshell, is where Irad messes up. He is obviously a talented rider but sometimes he tries to dictate to the horse too much. The horse had just beaten the same crew running free on the lead, and she went plenty fast early doing it. Trying to relax her was foolish. To what end? She wasn't going any longer, wasn't facing any real new shooters that looked like serious competition, and there wasn't really any true speed signed on.

The guy is a physically talented rider but he needs work on the tactical side. Andy Serling had a great tweet string on this I'll post next.

[cj]

https://twitter.com/andyserling/status/843895025742352385

https://twitter.com/andyserling/status/843895450956713986

https://twitter.com/andyserling/status/843895594712289280

https://twitter.com/andyserling/status/843895747393310720

https://twitter.com/andyserling/status/843895889089495040

https://twitter.com/andyserling/status/843896135186071552

https://twitter.com/andyserling/status/843896306166910976

https://twitter.com/andyserling/status/843896503500529666

https://twitter.com/andyserling/status/843896653128130566

https://twitter.com/andyserling/status/843897172638777344

[ReplayRandall]

And that, I think in a nutshell, is where Irad messes up. He is obviously a talented rider but sometimes he tries to dictate to the horse too much. The horse had just beaten the same crew running free on the lead, and she went plenty fast early doing it. Trying to relax her was foolish. To what end? She wasn't going any longer, wasn't facing any real new shooters that looked like serious competition, and there wasn't really any true speed signed on.

The guy is a physically talented rider but he needs work on the tactical side. Andy Serling had a great tweet string on this I'll post next.
When I watch Irad ride, he reminds me of Paco Lopez and vice-versa....Two physically gifted riders, who are super-aggressive yet not fully matured mentally. It will be interesting to see the rise/fall of these two in the coming 5 years, though I think Jose Ortiz will ultimately be more successful...

[Ruffian1]

https://twitter.com/andyserling/status/843895025742352385

https://twitter.com/andyserling/status/843895450956713986

https://twitter.com/andyserling/status/843895594712289280

https://twitter.com/andyserling/status/843895747393310720

https://twitter.com/andyserling/status/843895889089495040

https://twitter.com/andyserling/status/843896135186071552

https://twitter.com/andyserling/status/843896306166910976

https://twitter.com/andyserling/status/843896503500529666

https://twitter.com/andyserling/status/843896653128130566

https://twitter.com/andyserling/status/843897172638777344

These are great comments !!
If he is really being mentored by Ramon, it's just a matter of time before he gets better at this particular aspect.
But it does not come overnight.

Mike Smith is a super example but the guy has been riding Irads entire life hasn't he ?

[EasyGoer89]

I remember a race a couple months ago w yorkiepoo princess (the sprint win not the route win) and the guy rode the hair off the horse as the 2nd betting choice from the Opening stride, he had a mental Plan and executed perfectly, he even drifted out into the track because he knew the 2/5 shot w Javier would be the one coming, there was an animated fist pump at the wire which led me to believe there was something 'extra' on this race as he doesn't fist pump like this on every ride.

What does all this mean? Well, I guess it means that sometimes he has a plan and sometimes he doesn't, sometimes he rides like his life depends on winning and other times he's just on cloud 9?

i still have to ask why he would allow the 4 horse in the Oaklawn race to get in front of him when that horse, the last time they met, stopped alarmingly and lost by a large margin. Isn't that the first thing you notice when you handicap the race, don't get caught behind that specific horse?

[Exotic1]

And that, I think in a nutshell, is where Irad messes up. He is obviously a talented rider but sometimes he tries to dictate to the horse too much. The horse had just beaten the same crew running free on the lead, and she went plenty fast early doing it. Trying to relax her was foolish. To what end? She wasn't going any longer, wasn't facing any real new shooters that looked like serious competition, and there wasn't really any true speed signed on.

The guy is a physically talented rider but he needs work on the tactical side. Andy Serling had a great tweet string on this I'll post next.

Ok. But it's astonishing that Irad tried this strategy riding the horse for the first time in a very big race. What possessed him to try this? Just bizarre. I'm pretty sure there's no bewilderment in Irad's mind, hey the horse didn't show up. But for a player it's just unfathomable. Why change tactics that worked? I think the answer is that there is no logical answer. You just have to shake your head and say, what just happened? There's no mitigating this with the jock has talent - I know you didn't try to mitigate it. It's just mind boggling and I didn't bet the race. Probably just practicing for the Bel turf on one of Chad's Cadillac's.

[EMD4ME]

I remember a race a couple months ago w yorkiepoo princess (the sprint win not the route win) and the guy rode the hair off the horse as the 2nd betting choice from the Opening stride, he had a mental Plan and executed perfectly, he even drifted out into the track because he knew the 2/5 shot w Javier would be the one coming, there was an animated fist pump at the wire which led me to believe there was something 'extra' on this race as he doesn't fist pump like this on every ride.

What does all this mean? Well, I guess it means that sometimes he has a plan and sometimes he doesn't, sometimes he rides like his life depends on winning and other times he's just on cloud 9?

i still have to ask why he would allow the 4 horse in the Oaklawn race to get in front of him when that horse, the last time they met, stopped alarmingly and lost by a large margin. Isn't that the first thing you notice when you handicap the race, don't get caught behind that specific horse?

THAT race was a perfect example of what he CAN do.

That was a picture perfect ride by Irad....

[Exotic1]

THAT race was a perfect example of what he CAN do.

That was a picture perfect ride by Irad....

He's ridden many of Rudy's horses very well this winter. On second thought, I would have had a good chance on some of Rudy's horses.

[cj]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/a1/24/0e/a1240e62fbd2c1a6914a5cb777c5cc4b.jpg

If only they'd chase them...:rant:

[Andy Asaro]

Ok. But it's astonishing that Irad tried this strategy riding the horse for the first time in a very big race. What possessed him to try this? Just bizarre. I'm pretty sure there's no bewilderment in Irad's mind, hey the horse didn't show up. But for a player it's just unfathomable. Why change tactics that worked? I think the answer is that there is no logical answer. You just have to shake your head and say, what just happened? There's no mitigating this with the jock has talent - I know you didn't try to mitigate it. It's just mind boggling and I didn't bet the race. Probably just practicing for the Bel turf on one of Chad's Cadillac's.

Lesson is IMO that we should be a lot more like Hong Kong when it comes to suspicious rides. Anyone have a good argument against?

[cj]

Lesson is IMO that we should be a lot more like Hong Kong when it comes to suspicious rides. Anyone have a good argument against?

The people in charge have no idea what a good, bad, or suspicious ride looks like.

[Andy Asaro]

The people in charge have no idea what a good, bad, or suspicious ride looks like.

Bingo. IMO they don't want to know the truth. If they did they would ask a few more questions of Ortiz and let the public know that they are doing a preliminary investigation.

[AltonKelsey]

Another good reason to not freak over rides that are simply and obviously ill conceived, is it waters down legitimate complaints.

Boy who cried Wolf and all that.

[EasyGoer89]

I remember many years ago the harness driver Ron Pierce and more recently a driver in Canada at Woodbine harness were essentially fined/suspended (not sure which, might be both)for what amounts to 'poor judgment'

Both drivers, 'sat in' with huge favorites who wouldn't have gotten beat otherwise, these guys were punished for egregious mistakes while riding unbeatable horses, could we fine and or suspend Ortiz for lack of judgment without trying to get into the grey area of deciding whether this was an intentional act?

Harness racing does it.

[Ruffian1]

Before I went out on my own, I had been an assistant trainer and my mentor had relayed instructions to give as he would split days between Bowie and Delaware Park in the summer. He would have me write down 2,3 or 4 key very short phrases to remind the jock of with each horse. Like, must be outside, or will split horses or hangs or loafs late or no ears in gate ( referring to the gate crew grabbing an ear to get the horse to cooperate).

He must have given me 1000 of them .

But he ALWAYS started out each set of catch phrases with , wait for it,...

RIDE AWAY.

Every single time.

Watch tape of Chris McCarron leaving the gate in the 70's, early in his career. He always did it for a few strides and THEN, he took his cross with the reins. That stuck with Chris.
Please watch an old you tube somewhere. You will see for yourself.

Needless to say, I never gave an instruction for any horse without saying
"ride away" first.

Irad could have used that advise.

Thanks boss. It served me well.

[EasyGoer89]

Before I went out on my own, I had been an assistant trainer and my mentor had relayed instructions to give as he would split days between Bowie and Delaware Park in the summer. He would have me write down 2,3 or 4 key very short phrases to remind the jock of with each horse. Like, must be outside, or will split horses or hangs or loafs late or no ears in gate ( referring to the gate crew grabbing an ear to get the horse to cooperate).

He must have given me 1000 of them .

But he ALWAYS started out each set of catch phrases with , wait for it,...

RIDE AWAY.

Every single time.

Watch tape of Chris McCarron leaving the gate in the 70's, early in his career. He always did it for a few strides and THEN, he took his cross with the reins. That stuck with Chris.
Please watch an old you tube somewhere. You will see for yourself.

Needless to say, I never gave an instruction for any horse without saying
"ride away" first.

Irad could have used that advise.

Thanks boss. It served me well.

Nice post!

Have you seen in your career that jockeys tend to want/listen to instructions? I'm under the impression that some of the top guys get 'insulted' if you tell them what to do, not sure if lower rung jocks listen more, I think a lot of trainers might not want to tell a jock how to ride just like they don't want anyone telling them how to train. What's your experience with this, I'd love to hear inside thoughts on 'instructions'

[EMD4ME]

Before I went out on my own, I had been an assistant trainer and my mentor had relayed instructions to give as he would split days between Bowie and Delaware Park in the summer. He would have me write down 2,3 or 4 key very short phrases to remind the jock of with each horse. Like, must be outside, or will split horses or hangs or loafs late or no ears in gate ( referring to the gate crew grabbing an ear to get the horse to cooperate).

He must have given me 1000 of them .

But he ALWAYS started out each set of catch phrases with , wait for it,...

RIDE AWAY.

Every single time.

Watch tape of Chris McCarron leaving the gate in the 70's, early in his career. He always did it for a few strides and THEN, he took his cross with the reins. That stuck with Chris.
Please watch an old you tube somewhere. You will see for yourself.

Needless to say, I never gave an instruction for any horse without saying
"ride away" first.

Irad could have used that advise.

Thanks boss. It served me well.

Again, AWESOME STUFF RUFFIAN.

Here's the problem I have with someone giving him THAT advice....


He knows that. He is capable of it. When Irad wants to win, he is a totally different beast. RIDES AWAY, knows who has speed as well and ATTACKS them via herding at the start...........

Herds at anypoint, gate, backstretch, far turn, cornering into lane and all of the lane. He even BULLDOZES foes in the lane if need be.


He KNOWS how to win....

Makes you wonder how and why he rides so poorly when he does.
It's not a matter of intelligence. It's not a matter of talent.


I'm going to give myself a pat on the back. ALL OF YOU WILL HATE ME for it but I will.

When everyone was jumping over eachother to get in line to applaud these 2 new kids that could ride in 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, I sat there and "critiqued" them.

I joined PA in 2013. I got blasted, put on a stick and burned while being rotated with an apple in my mouth because I said Irad and Jose are not as innocent as they are perceived to be.

In the last 12-14 months we have the following:

People in an UPROAR over...

Constellation got a "curious" ride and someone lost about a HALF A MILLION dollars to place on her in a 4 HORSE FIELD AT AQU on the inner.

Constellation did disappear but she came back to pay $28 in a GRADE 1.

AND


Someone or some people lost $350,000 on IRAD on this filly. All verticals came back short. His bro sat back and ran 3rd.


I went APESHIT when Petrov was given a CURIOUS ride in Dec at AQU. I went down to the rail, politely told Irad and Jose that someone, this 1 little person knows what they just pulled off. They stared with blank faces. Funny, on twitter, Irad was more "aggressive" when told of curious rides. That day, dead quiet.

Petrov is no star but he came back to run real well in Derby Preps.

I don't for 1 second believe those were coincidental PISS POOR RIDES.

Those 2 have so many piss poor rides, that I can never believe that it's just them being lackadaisical, lack of preperation or experimintation....not after watching them day in day out, 10 x a day on replay.


You're welcome ;)



P.S. I predict that we will be discussing Irad and Jose again about another 1 of "these" rides. Very shortly.

[EMD4ME]

I didn't watch Cordero day in and day out but I have never in my life, seen 1 jock herd so much so deceptively at the start than Irad Ortiz.


It was first pointed out to me by the sharpest player that I have ever met. It was a Dec race in 2013 or 2014 I believe. Irad had the 4 horse in a 1M dirt route on the inner.

The only other speed was the 9 (9 was the fav). Irad went to the 8 path after breaking with the lead and quickly tucked down before the turn BUT made sure the 9 was left out to dry.

Since then, I was more in tune with his gate herding.

To see him break well and put a deceptive hard to see (BUT VISIBLE) hold on, shows me yet again for 1000th time just how talented he is........


And I'm not referring to talented in terms of winning

[EMD4ME]

I remember many years ago the harness driver Ron Pierce and more recently a driver in Canada at Woodbine harness were essentially fined/suspended (not sure which, might be both)for what amounts to 'poor judgment'

Both drivers, 'sat in' with huge favorites who wouldn't have gotten beat otherwise, these guys were punished for egregious mistakes while riding unbeatable horses, could we fine and or suspend Ortiz for lack of judgment without trying to get into the grey area of deciding whether this was an intentional act?

Harness racing does it.

Great idea. I said something similar once and Super Pickle said that if we ban every jock for that, we'd have no riders.

Again, genious pioneer thinking on his part.

WHO CARES IF WE HAVE NO JOCKS? :lol:

In all seriousness, these riders would quickly learn (after the 3rd or 4th ban) that they can't play around.

[EasyGoer89]

Great idea. I said something similar once and Super Pickle said that if we ban every jock for that, we'd have no riders.

Again, genious pioneer thinking on his part.

WHO CARES IF WE HAVE NO JOCKS? :lol:

In all seriousness, these riders would quickly learn (after the 3rd or 4th ban) that they can't play around.

They make too much money to NOT learn quickly.

[Racetrack Playa]

[QUOTE=Ruffian1;2140167

Good luck everyone.[/QUOTE]
Hey Ruffain1 :ThmbUp:Thanks for the honest input and insight.

[Andy Asaro]

Hey Ruffain1 :ThmbUp:Thanks for the honest input and insight.

Ruffian1 is the gold standard of which posts should be measured IMO

[Andy Asaro]

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/On-The-Line/comments/03212017-hall-of-fame-ballot-offers-many-too-many-worthy-nominees/


But Asaro was way out of line when he suggested Saturday evening that Irad Ortiz Jr. single-handedly fixed Oaklawn’s $350,000 Grade 2 Azeri Stakes for older fillies and mares.

[PaceAdvantage]

So in other words he just assumed the other jockeys would hand the 1 to 5 favorite the lead. Maybe he thought he was still in New York. 😀He probably assumed, like most in this thread (including TimeForm), that she was going to get a relatively easy lead early. He broke well and hit the front...hey...working out as planned so far...then he gets passed quickly by not one but two others...he was riding too cute for words in my opinion.

I don't see how this opinion is invalid compared to the other theories put out here so far.

It happens all the time when a jockey is overconfident on a heavy favorite.

[classhandicapper]

He probably assumed, like most in this thread (including TimeForm), that she was going to get a relatively easy lead early. He broke well and hit the front...hey...working out as planned so far...then he gets passed quickly by not one but two others...he was riding too cute for words in my opinion.

I don't see how this opinion is invalid compared to the other theories put out here so far.

It happens all the time when a jockey is overconfident on a heavy favorite.

I tend to agree with this.

You can question why he didn't use her a little to get the lead, but when you see riders inside or outside you trying for the lead, you do risk getting into a duel if you try to outrun them and they are hell bent on the lead. If she got the lead easily he almost certainly would have taken it, but he didn't want to use her.

He seems to have quickly decided to settle in behind the leaders and win with much the best horse anyway. That's when the problems started. On her own she had enough speed to run with the horses that were being sent from the outside. So he wound up in an awkward spot too close to them instead of in the pocket. So he started checking her to take the position he wanted. Then she got a little rank (as speed horses being rated sometimes do) and she started burning up more energy as he continued holding her. Then it went from bad to bad when he couldn't find room to get her out.

It was unquestionably a nightmare trip and he almost certainly would have been better off going, but in that exact scenario you will sometimes get involved in a duel if you do send. Then if you lose because of it people will trash you anyway.

[Andy Asaro]

It was the type of trip you have nightmares about. What's the worst thing that can happen? That was it.

[PaceAdvantage]

I agree that a race like this SHOULD be examined closely.

When a 1/5 favorite runs out in a graded race and there is something like a minus show pool involved, it should be a matter of course to launch a preliminary investigation in search of any strange betting activity on all fronts.

Most if not all tracks employ automatic post-race drug testing for the horse involved in such races...so why not also examine the betting patterns in such races as well? It's actually quite telling that this is NOT already the status quo in the USA.

[Andy Asaro]

I agree that a race like this SHOULD be examined closely.

When a 1/5 favorite runs out in a graded race and there is something like a minus show pool involved, it should be a matter of course to launch a preliminary investigation in search of any strange betting activity on all fronts.

Most if not all tracks employ automatic post-race drug testing for the horse involved in such races...so why not also examine the betting patterns in such races as well? It's actually quite telling that this is NOT already the status quo in the USA.

Boom. Right on the money.

[classhandicapper]

Boom. Right on the money.

I agree too.

There is very little downside to checking betting patterns and ensuring the integrity of the sport to fans.

[Ruffian1]

I agree that a race like this SHOULD be examined closely.

When a 1/5 favorite runs out in a graded race and there is something like a minus show pool involved, it should be a matter of course to launch a preliminary investigation in search of any strange betting activity on all fronts.

Most if not all tracks employ automatic post-race drug testing for the horse involved in such races...so why not also examine the betting patterns in such races as well? It's actually quite telling that this is NOT already the status quo in the USA.

I couldn't agree more.

Some states have the testing for a big fav that runs out on the books.

It's automatic.

No idea about that state.

Managements as well as Stewards inefficiency is tough to watch sometimes.

It is stunning to me that so little effort is put towards customer relations.

When 1-5's run out, THAT is as much a customer relations thing as it is anything.

If the customer feels uneasy about any product, they will cease to support it.

It's like they want to fail their fan base.:bang:

Just somebody, anybody, at the track please step the hell up and do something !

[razor]

I think Asmussen and Santana had a falling out around the time Gun Runner
came to Oaklawn. He bought Geroux with him who had the mount on Gun Runner along with a couple more Asmussen horses. After that day Asmussen used Franco and Eramia until Luis Contreras came to town. I read where Asmussen said Luis was moving his tack from California and would ride first
call for him which is exactly what happened. I believe the only horse Santana has rode for him since Southwest Day is Lookin at Lee in the Rebel. Contreras didn't have a mount in the Rebel and I was curious why he put Irad on instead of his first call jock.

[Ruffian1]

Nice post!

Have you seen in your career that jockeys tend to want/listen to instructions? I'm under the impression that some of the top guys get 'insulted' if you tell them what to do, not sure if lower rung jocks listen more, I think a lot of trainers might not want to tell a jock how to ride just like they don't want anyone telling them how to train. What's your experience with this, I'd love to hear inside thoughts on 'instructions'

I never had a problem with any rider not wanting to hear what I had to say. What I said was more an informational on the horses likes or dislikes.
Sure, I would mention no pace or plenty of speed both sides of you or whatever, but more as a general overview of the way the early part might set up.
Telling them that they loaf on the lead late, or don't hit them or they will sulk or they are blind in a certain eye. No ears in the gate, won't run inside a horse late, etc. That stuff is vital info.
I would not try and tell them how to ride.
So I think as long as you are telling them stuff that will actually help them out it's fine.
I have heard other trainers in stalls next to me in the paddock trying to draw the jocks a road map before the race. That's just stupid IMO.
If I was a rider that would irritate me.

[whodoyoulike]

I agree that a race like this SHOULD be examined closely.

When a 1/5 favorite runs out in a graded race and there is something like a minus show pool involved, it should be a matter of course to launch a preliminary investigation in search of any strange betting activity on all fronts.

Most if not all tracks employ automatic post-race drug testing for the horse involved in such races...so why not also examine the betting patterns in such races as well? It's actually quite telling that this is NOT already the status quo in the USA.

I don't agree, especially in this case. I just selected your post but saw several agreeing with you on this so I'm not picking on you.

This thread was started implying that Ortiz compromised the horse's Win chances much less to even Show in this race. I saw the replay provided and didn't see anything which Ortiz did anything to hurt the horse's chances. It looked like the horse herself and the fact she was being boxed in by the other riders/horses did the compromising.

I saw at least three situations during the race where the horse was impeded and as mentioned previously 3x's is difficult to overcome for most horses.

[linrom1]

I don't agree, especially in this case. I just selected your post but saw several agreeing with you on this so I'm not picking on you.

This thread was started implying that Ortiz compromised the horse's Win chances much less to even Show in this race. I saw the replay provided and didn't see anything which Ortiz did anything to hurt the horse's chances. It looked like the horse herself and the fact she was being boxed in by the other riders/horses did the compromising.

I saw at least three situations during the race where the horse was impeded and as mentioned previously 3x's is difficult to overcome for most horses.

There are very knowledgeable racing professionals who analyze races for a living for major US Media outlets. Other than not wanting to publicly accuse Irad of malfeasance they overwhelming AGREE with OP assessment of how the race was run.

Have a good day.

[classhandicapper]

I just finished my review of the OP card and I agree with something Lemon Drop Husker mentioned near the beginning of the thread. I don't think speed on the rail was the ideal trip at Oaklawn on 3/18. It may not have been death in there, but I'm pretty sure you didn't want to get involved in a duel while on the rail if you had the choice.

I don't know if that played into Ortiz's thinking, but he may have had a sense that gunning inside was not ideal and that's why he wasn't aggressive. Of course it turned into a mess either way, but that could explain it.

Also, I think it's possible that Terra Promessa was not quite as good as she looked going into that race anyway. In my notes I have Oaklawn as mildly favoring inside speed the day of her last race when she won impressively and earned her best Beyer.

[whodoyoulike]

There are very knowledgeable racing professionals who analyze races for a living for major US Media outlets. Other than not wanting to publicly accuse Irad of malfeasance they overwhelming AGREE with OP assessment of how the race was run.

Have a good day.

I'm guessing you watched the race or replay.

So, why not provide your interpretation instead of making up your mind based on these "knowledgeable racing professionals who analyze races for a living for major US Media outlets"?

I still stand that the horse caused part or most of the problems.

[Andy Asaro]

There are very knowledgeable racing professionals who analyze races for a living for major US Media outlets. Other than not wanting to publicly accuse Irad of malfeasance they overwhelming AGREE with OP assessment of how the race was run.

Have a good day.

knowledgeable racing professionals who analyze races for a living for major US Media outlets.

Oh Lord.

Whole problem with Industry is that they hire "Experts" and pay "Experts" who aren't experts at all. Experts time races at Gulfstream for $800 a day. Gulfstream gave up on accurately timing races.

[EasyGoer89]

knowledgeable racing professionals who analyze races for a living for major US Media outlets.

Oh Lord.

Whole problem with Industry is that they hire "Experts" and pay "Experts" who aren't experts at all. Experts time races at Gulfstream for $800 a day. Gulfstream gave up on accurately timing races.

800 a day? Where can I sign up!