Fingers Lakes saved for at least two years

[PaceAdvantage]

A final agreement has been reached to permit Thoroughbred racing to continue at Finger Lakes Racetrack as part of a two-year deal that includes additional funding for purses from several stakeholders.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/220480/deal-reached-to-continue-racing-at-finger-lakes

[porchy44]

I would bet Finger Lakes races, if it wasn't for the bulk of their races being 5 to 6 horse fields.

[SuperPickle]

I would bet Finger Lakes races, if it wasn't for the bulk of their races being 5 to 6 horse fields.

Exactly. It would been better if they went away.

This is not a good thing.

[EMD4ME]

Exactly. It would been better if they went away.

This is not a good thing.

Explain to me how it's good that FL goes away.


Explain to me how the NY BRED breeding industry is positively impacted by FL closing.

Explain to me where the non competitive NY breds will go after they can't hack it at NYRA.


Explain to me how positively impacted the related job sectors in upstate NY will be if FL closes.


I really want to learn so I am all ears.

[SuperPickle]

Explain to me how it's good that FL goes away.


Explain to me how the NY BRED breeding industry is positively impacted by FL closing.

Explain to me where the non competitive NY breds will go after they can't hack it at NYRA.


Explain to me how positively impacted the related job sectors in upstate NY will be if FL closes.


I really want to learn so I am all ears.


Simple... every problem in horse racing has some root in issues with horse population. Let's use some problems discussed on this board as examples...

Uncoupled Entries - tracks decoupled entries mainly to create additional betting interests to offset reductions in field size.

Takeout - it's not possible to argue horse population doesn't have a tie in to raises in takeout. Smaller fields equal less betting dollars so it's time to raise the takeout. But even taking population as a reason to raise takeout aside even with no increase it hurts because the smaller the field size the more takeout is felt and more breakage becomes important. The difference impact of takeout on a five horse field is bigger than a ten horse field.

Super trainers - Why do super trainers operate with impunity in certain areas. Why isn't Tampa harder on Jamie Ness? Why doesn't Monmouth scrutinize Navarro more? The answer is these tracks need horses. So when a guy shows up with 50-100 of them you don't ask questions. When a guy controls 5-15% of your horses he controls 5-15% of revenue which depending on the track may be the difference between making money and losing money. He's not a tenant he's a minority's owner. A business partner.


And finally most importantly it's an animal welfare issue. When tracks don't have enough horses for a meet it puts a huge strain on the population they do have. So whether it's racing secretaries pressuring trainers to fill the box to get races to go or trainers over running horses because fields are short and minor checks help pay the bills it definitely harms horses. When you can get 5% of a slot filled purse just by showing up with a sore nag it's not good.

Have you now learned something?

[Tom]

Explain to me how the NY BRED breeding industry is positively impacted by FL closing.

Explain to me where the non competitive NY breds will go after they can't hack it at NYRA.

1. Who cares?
2. They can stay at NYRA. If they are so bad, why do you care about those who keep breeding them?

[EMD4ME]

Simple... every problem in horse racing has some root in issues with horse population. Let's use some problems discussed on this board as examples...

Uncoupled Entries - tracks decoupled entries mainly to create additional betting interests to offset reductions in field size.

Takeout - it's not possible to argue horse population doesn't have a tie in to raises in takeout. Smaller fields equal less betting dollars so it's time to raise the takeout. But even taking population as a reason to raise takeout aside even with no increase it hurts because the smaller the field size the more takeout is felt and more breakage becomes important. The difference impact of takeout on a five horse field is bigger than a ten horse field.

Super trainers - Why do super trainers operate with impunity in certain areas. Why isn't Tampa harder on Jamie Ness? Why doesn't Monmouth scrutinize Navarro more? The answer is these tracks need horses. So when a guy shows up with 50-100 of them you don't ask questions. When a guy controls 5-15% of your horses he controls 5-15% of revenue which depending on the track may be the difference between making money and losing money. He's not a tenant he's a minority's owner. A business partner.


And finally most importantly it's an animal welfare issue. When tracks don't have enough horses for a meet it puts a huge strain on the population they do have. So whether it's racing secretaries pressuring trainers to fill the box to get races to go or trainers over running horses because fields are short and minor checks help pay the bills it definitely harms horses. When you can get 5% of a slot filled purse just by showing up with a sore nag it's not good.

Have you now learned something?

So, what happens when the 24 fish bowls become 12. Won't we have less owners (those that didn't want to relocate), less trainers (same thing) and less breeders?

Won't we, in a few years, have the same problem? Of course WE WILL.

All your factors will occur again in 5 years. That's not a cure. GROWING THE GAME IS THE CURE.

I don't see any talk of that on this site. Almost no where. That is the problem sir.

[SuperPickle]

So, what happens when the 24 fish bowls become 12. Won't we have less owners (those that didn't want to relocate), less trainers (same thing) and less breeders?

Won't we, in a few years, have the same problem? Of course WE WILL.

All your factors will occur again in 5 years. That's not a cure. GROWING THE GAME IS THE CURE.

I don't see any talk of that on this site. Almost no where. That is the problem sir.

Noooooooo...

First off if Finger Lakes closed tracks like Penn National, the mountain, presque isle and Ohio would absorb their horses and those tracks desperately need the horses.

Second, yes you need to grow the game. However 20-30 years ago foal crop was 40-45,000. Now it's half that. So half the tracks need to go to bring horse supple and demand in line.

Here's a brilliant business example. Remember when the U.S. auto industry closed all those dealerships a few years ago because the dealerships were based on a volume of auto manufacturing that was outdated? Remember the big three were making a fraction of the cars they made in the past? Exact same deal. Auto dealerships are racetracks. When the manufacturers were able to get the number of dealerships in the right proportion to the amount of automobiles produced the remaining dealerships flourished. And now you have a very healthy industry.

It's a basic business principle. If you don't bring the amount of distribution points (I.E. racetracks) in proportion with the quantity of output of product (I.E. horses) you run the risk of destroying the whole industry. It's like triage. If you don't make hard decisions and write off some assets they all suffer.

You say you worked in finance? This is a proven business principle that's worked countless industries most recently the auto industry. How are you not behind this?

[EMD4ME]

Noooooooo...

First off if Finger Lakes closed tracks like Penn National, the mountain, presque isle and Ohio would absorb their horses and those tracks desperately need the horses.

Second, yes you need to grow the game. However 20-30 years ago foal crop was 40-45,000. Now it's half that. So half the tracks need to go to bring horse supple and demand in line.

Here's a brilliant business example. Remember when the U.S. auto industry closed all those dealerships a few years ago because the dealerships were based on a volume of auto manufacturing that was outdated? Remember the big three were making a fraction of the cars they made in the past? Exact same deal. Auto dealerships are racetracks. When the manufacturers were able to get the number of dealerships in the right proportion to the amount of automobiles produced the remaining dealerships flourished. And now you have a very healthy industry.

It's a basic business principle. If you don't bring the amount of distribution points (I.E. racetracks) in proportion with the quantity of output of product (I.E. horses) you run the risk of destroying the whole industry. It's like triage. If you don't make hard decisions and write off some assets they all suffer.

You say you worked in finance? This is a proven business principle that's worked countless industries most recently the auto industry. How are you not behind this?

I am not behind it because IMO, once those horses that ship from FL to OHIO/MNR etc pass away, we still have less owners, less trainers and less everything.

More importantly, I grew up by going to Charles Town from birth. If it wasn't for my live experience, I wouldn't be playing horses my whole life. Take away the live experience at FL, CRC, Suffolk, Meadowlands Thoroughbred, Bay Meadows, Hollywoood etc etc etc etc and what do you have?


Less fans being brought into the game.

Cut down more tracks and what do you have? Less people betting in those states. Do you seriously think that upstate NY will be advertising simulcasting from SA or NYRA? No way in hell, they don't even do it now.

To me, we need growth. We need a national czar (no not you, or me :)), someone to say hey STUPID, unite or die. We need to bring people and kids out to the track. We need to advertise cross country (minus the bible belt and some other states) and through hands on true leadership, educate the crowd, show them what it feels like to work your ass off and make money gambling. Show them what it's like to pet your horse that you own (for $500). ETC ETC ETC

It needs to grow organically with a unified front for a common goal.

[lamboguy]

contraction in the horse racing game is flat out bad. but that is what is going on now and i have no idea how to contain it. the population has increased 3 fold in North America over the last 60 years yet we have lost over half the racing fans in that time. those are the awful numbers of the game. less horses and less tracks are only going to mean less fans.

due to casino and slot machines, the game has a unique opportunity to build itself back up again. owners and bettors are really one in the same. its no good to have 1 owner with 50 horses though.

the subsidies will end some day and it a dirty old shame that racing is just squandering away that money now.

[Inner Dirt]

I have 15 tracks on my do not bet list plus all artificial surfaces. I have 7 tracks on my top list. 7 tracks lie in the middle and that is this list Finger Lakes is on. I gauge tracks by how well I usually do betting them, I could care less if the average race was a $5,000 claimer with a 6 horse fields and winos slept in the stair wells as long as I did well there. Even those tracks I never bet I wish them well, too many tracks have closed already since I have been betting horses the last 40+ years.

I have only been to 10 four legged racing tracks in my lifetime (8 horse, 2 dogs) and 4 of those are no longer in business. Auto racing venues I have attended even fared worse, of 8 I have attended only 3 still remain.

[Thomas Roulston]

A turf course would save it forever.

[Run Nicholas Run]

give Bobby Messina a jockeys license again:lol:

[FantasticDan]

NY Breeders Fund offering an incentive for NY breds by NY stallions who win a MSW at FL:

http://www.drf.com/news/new-incentives-fuel-optimism-new-york-breds-sires

The New York Thoroughbred Breeding and Development Fund also approved an incentive to invest in New York-breds sired by New York stallions. When such a horse wins a maiden special weight at Finger Lakes, the horse will earn an additional $7,000 from a fund purse enrichment.

“Our hope is that the seven-grand boost in first-place money will help more of our breeders look to our registered New York stallions first when making breeding plans,” said Tracy Egan, the fund’s executive director.

[Hambletonian]

there is no growing this game, period.

racing here is a not a sport, it is all about gambling. and as a gambling endeavor it is a failing enterprise.

keeping FL on life support for a couple of more years does nothing to change any of this.

[SuperPickle]

there is no growing this game, period.

racing here is a not a sport, it is all about gambling. and as a gambling endeavor it is a failing enterprise.

keeping FL on life support for a couple of more years does nothing to change any of this.


Exactly. Finger Lakes is going to close that is inevitable. Doing it now versus later helps other tracks stay a float.

Simply put unless you're a horseman in upstate New York there's no good in place continuing to race.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...

Simply put unless you're a horseman in upstate New York there's no good in place continuing to race.

Come on. This is a tad extreme. I don't buy for a second that you don't believe that there are more losses when a track closes than simply those endured by the horsemen.

[thespaah]

Exactly. It would been better if they went away.

This is not a good thing.

How in the world could the closure of a race track that provides a home for NY State Breds to race. Horses that are not necessarily NYRA caliber, but still can take home decent purses and keep the NY Breeding industry going.
Unless NYRA cards a bunch more State Bred races, Finger Lakes must remain an alternative for NY horsemen to race their NY Bred stock.

[thespaah]

Simple... every problem in horse racing has some root in issues with horse population. Let's use some problems discussed on this board as examples...

Uncoupled Entries - tracks decoupled entries mainly to create additional betting interests to offset reductions in field size.

Takeout - it's not possible to argue horse population doesn't have a tie in to raises in takeout. Smaller fields equal less betting dollars so it's time to raise the takeout. But even taking population as a reason to raise takeout aside even with no increase it hurts because the smaller the field size the more takeout is felt and more breakage becomes important. The difference impact of takeout on a five horse field is bigger than a ten horse field.

Super trainers - Why do super trainers operate with impunity in certain areas. Why isn't Tampa harder on Jamie Ness? Why doesn't Monmouth scrutinize Navarro more? The answer is these tracks need horses. So when a guy shows up with 50-100 of them you don't ask questions. When a guy controls 5-15% of your horses he controls 5-15% of revenue which depending on the track may be the difference between making money and losing money. He's not a tenant he's a minority's owner. A business partner.


And finally most importantly it's an animal welfare issue. When tracks don't have enough horses for a meet it puts a huge strain on the population they do have. So whether it's racing secretaries pressuring trainers to fill the box to get races to go or trainers over running horses because fields are short and minor checks help pay the bills it definitely harms horses. When you can get 5% of a slot filled purse just by showing up with a sore nag it's not good.

Have you now learned something?
You make valid points. However, I respectfully reject your doom and gloom context...

[BIGTKLO]

Simply put unless you're a horseman in upstate New York there's no good in place continuing to race. Quote from a previous post.


Unless you're an announcer, paddock commentator, paddock judge, placing judge, steward, racing secretary, camera operator, program coordinator, clocker, valet, food vendor, program seller, mutual teller, farrier, hay-man, veterinarian, janitor, clerk of scales, jock's room attendant, etc...

Opinions are like ---holes we all have one.

[cj]

If the product they are putting out now is what we are going to see for the next two years, no thanks.

[dilanesp]

I think the comments about NY Breds and about the people employed by the track and its horsemen, while well intentioned, get this issue wrong.

Thoroughbred racing is not a welfare program. No business is, except some very specific examples that I am not a fan of but which nonetheless exist. (There's no doubt, for instance, that some Pentagon procurements are not needed for the defense of the country and happen anyway because they provide jobs in key congressional districts.)

Thoroughbred racing is a business. Which has to make a profit. And which has to respond to changes in demand.

About 10 years ago, a whole bunch of Boston Market restaurants closed in Southern California. This sort of thing happens all the time. All the time. People lost their jobs, suppliers lost a major customer and may have had to cut back their own operations, etc. Plus the remaining customers lost a place where they could get pretty high quality fast food and good rotisserie chicken.

But here's the thing. If you kept it open, in the hope of attracting the young generation to rotisserie chicken, how much are you willing to pay to do that? How much are you willing to lose?

Horse racing is less popular than it was. It also has more competition. And by the way, it also has satellite wagering-- one of the huge things that hurts small tracks like Finger Lakes is that even locals in central New York state who follow horse racing now have the opportunity to bet better cards, and they do. As people have even said in this thread, if you are a handicapper, why would you play Finger Lakes, with its 6 horse fields of New York bred cheap maiden claimers, when you can play much better betting races being carded by other eastern tracks?

So as much as it sucks to be an employee at Finger Lakes looking at imminent job loss, and as much as it sucks to be a racing fan in that region of New York who is looking at losing their home track, and as much as it might mean that some people will never find their way into this sport because there is no local operating racetrack, and as much as it is true that there are a lot of New York bred horses who will now have to run in other, tougher spots, that really doesn't matter when it comes to this issue. Thorougbred racing isn't run to maintain an income for these people, to ensure that New York breds of limited ability can win races, or to ensure that someone in a relatively sparsely populated portion of the country can attend the races. It's run to make money. And in order to do that, it has to contract.

[lamboguy]

horse racing is becoming more and more popular all over the world these days. its even more popular in this country, but just for the bigger races. when people go to see the day to day product anywhere they get turned off. again, just the opposite in other places..

[PaceAdvantage]

If the product they are putting out now is what we are going to see for the next two years, no thanks.Amen to that

[EasyGoer89]

Amen to that

You mean the 88 cent super in the first today didn't get your juices flowing?:D

[johnhannibalsmith]

Caldor style. Don't knock it.

[EasyGoer89]

After all the jokes, the pick 5 pays 8k.:coffee:

[EasyGoer89]

You mean the 88 cent super in the first today didn't get your juices flowing?:D

Speaking of 88 cent supers......

1st at Belmont :lol:

[SuperPickle]

Amen to that

When I beat the retraction drum I get accused of harming the sport or even worse being callous about people's jobs.

The reality is for the good of the sport we need to close some tracks and Finger Lakes is high on the list. The idea of retreating to move forward is a pretty proven business model. The auto industry is the biggest example. Brands like Saturn and Oldsmobile went away. Hundreds of dealerships closed. But the parts that stayed open have flourished. The industry is in the best shape in decades because they eliminated their weakest parts. On the retail side you've seen places like Krispy Creme and Boston Market close hundreds of stores to keep hundreds of other ones a float.

I really wish some people on this board would stop clutching their pearls over racing changing and grasp for the long-term survival of the sport their needs to massive disruption in the business model and nothing can be a sacred cow.

[Thomas Roulston]

Since they're suddenly so keen on spending money on racing in New York (see the just-announced Inner Dirt Track to turf course project at Aqueduct), it's time for a turf course at Finger Lakes.

Then FL is here to stay.

[FantasticDan]

WED 5/17 card has been cancelled, I assume for lack of entries.

[dilanesp]

WED 5/17 card has been cancelled, I assume for lack of entries.

Or lack of interest.

[EasyGoer89]

Wasn't boomerang Becky the favorite at post time? was I seeing things?

[cnollfan]

What are the rules for the Finger Lakes Pick 5? There is a carryover today but it doesn't appear to be a straightforward, non-jackpot bet.