NYRA expands partnership with FOX Sports for live racing coverage in 2017

[PaceAdvantage]

Thought this deserved its own thread...

"All of us at FOX Sports are proud to expand our relationship with NYRA and to present more of the best of thoroughbred racing with additional shows from Aqueduct and Belmont," said Michael Mulvihill, executive vice president of research, league operations and strategy for FOX Sports. "Wagering on horse racing is trending up and more races are available on national TV than ever before. We're happy to be part of NYRA's strategy for the continued growth of this great game."

https://www.nyra.com/aqueduct/news/nyra-expands-partnership-with-fox-sports-for-live-racing-coverage-in-2017-claiborne-farm-to-be-2017-presenting-sponsor-of-telecasts

[Si2see]

In that case please remove my post from the other thread if need be, I really didn't think you wanted a new thread of the same subject :lol:

Jason

[NY Racing Fan]

So basically, Tony Allevato (the enemy of many NYC horseplayers) has decided to scrap the local NYRA TV Network in favor of allocating NYRA funds toward this national television initiative with FOX. I guess this is his misguided way of making his impact at his new job with NYRA. By the way, we also found out that his old friend Greg Wolf (announced formally in this article) is the one that is replacing the locally popular Jason Blewitt. Horrible.

[PaceAdvantage]

Will do...it's not really the same subject...plus that thread wasn't the appropriate place to bury this news IMO.

[PaceAdvantage]

By the way, we also found out that his old friend Greg Wolf (announced formally in this article) is the one that is replacing the locally popular Jason Blewitt. Horrible.That's one way to view it...but IMO, it would be the entirely wrong way to view it. Unless you're saying Greg Wolf will be on NYRA broadcasts every day they run...which I don't think is going to be the case. He'll only be part of the FOX broadcasts.

[NY Racing Fan]

That's one way to view it...but IMO, it would be the entirely wrong way to view it. Unless you're saying Greg Wolf will be on NYRA broadcasts every day they run...which I don't think is going to be the case. He'll only be part of the FOX broadcasts.

Perhaps but I'm guessing that the sum of Greg Wolf's income from NYRA for these national broadcasts will be similar to that of Blewitt's annual income that he was receiving from NYRA. To me, that makes it a redistribution of their "talent" budget.

[NY Racing Fan]

In regards to Jason Blewitt's departure from NYRA, Steve Haskin opened a mighty large can of worms as to the reason why he was let go. Appears that he is insinuating that Jason did something to force NYRA to fire him.

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-racing-steve-haskin/archive/2017/03/13/tracks-need-to-follow-nyra-s-tv-expansion.aspx

Comment section from bottom of article...


Jeffrey Byrnes • 6 minutes ago
Does anyone know the exact reason why Jason Blewitt left NYRA? I didn't a complete reason as to why? Steve?

Bryan Langlois • 21 minutes ago
Agree completely, although absolutely horrible decision to get rid of Jason. Not sure what NYRA was thinking on that one. He was the guy who always exuded what it was like to be a true fan of the sport.

Steve Haskin BH Staff Bryan Langlois • 15 minutes ago
Let's just say NYRA did not initiate this. It went beyond them and was something they had to do.

[EMD4ME]

In regards to Jason Blewitt's departure from NYRA, Steve Haskin opened a mighty large can of worms as to the reason why he was let go. Appears that he is insinuating that Jason did something to force NYRA to fire him.

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-racing-steve-haskin/archive/2017/03/13/tracks-need-to-follow-nyra-s-tv-expansion.aspx

Comment section from bottom of article...


Jeffrey Byrnes • 6 minutes ago
Does anyone know the exact reason why Jason Blewitt left NYRA? I didn't a complete reason as to why? Steve?

Bryan Langlois • 21 minutes ago
Agree completely, although absolutely horrible decision to get rid of Jason. Not sure what NYRA was thinking on that one. He was the guy who always exuded what it was like to be a true fan of the sport.

Steve Haskin BH Staff Bryan Langlois • 15 minutes ago
Let's just say NYRA did not initiate this. It went beyond them and was something they had to do.

Those are some interesting comments (those and the other 4).

Adding nationwide coverage is a massive slap in the face to the loyal older diehards of NYC.

Repulsive is a word that comes to mind but Repulsive doesn't even begin to capture how messed up their decision was to cut the channel locally.

Insanely stupid business decision to say the least.

[Mr. Pick 5]

Those are some interesting comments (those and the other 4).

Adding nationwide coverage is a massive slap in the face to the loyal older diehards of NYC.

Repulsive is a word that comes to mind but Repulsive doesn't even begin to capture how messed up their decision was to cut the channel locally.

Insanely stupid business decision to say the least.

They act like a few days of coverage on an obscure network like FS2 is some kind of solution for getting rid of the nyra channel....PATHETIC.....and haskin is singing the praises of nyra....almost just as pathetic :lol: ....these guys really just don't grasp the real issues apparently :bang:

[PaceAdvantage]

Insanely stupid business decision to say the least.Somehow, I doubt this. Businesses aren't in the business of making insanely stupid business decisions. If it turns out to be insanely stupid, you can rest assured the channel will come back.

If it's not insanely stupid, then you can rest assured the channel won't come back.

It's quite simple. And as they said in the Godfather, it's not personal Sonny, it's strictly business.

[ReplayRandall]

Steve Haskin BH Staff Bryan Langlois • 15 minutes ago
Let's just say NYRA did not initiate this. It went beyond them and was something they had to do.
Could it be that Steve Haskin is our own lovable "Askin Haskin"??..:pound:

[PaceAdvantage]

They act like a few days of coverage on an obscure network like FS2 is some kind of solution for getting rid of the nyra channel....PATHETICExcept they aren't acting like that at all.

I get it though...you can't help yourselves.

[PaceAdvantage]

Could it be that Steve Haskin is our own lovable "Askin Haskin"??..:pound:NO! I even asked him to change his screen name, and he balked. I might force the issue now...

[Mr. Pick 5]

Somehow, I doubt this. Businesses aren't in the business of making insanely stupid business decisions. If it turns out to be insanely stupid, you can rest assured the channel will come back.

If it's not insanely stupid, then you can rest assured the channel won't come back.

It's quite simple. And as they said in the Godfather, it's not personal Sonny, it's strictly business.

I'm sure that spotty coverage on FS2 is really gonna bring them the ratings :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

You're like the gift that keeps on giving.

[Mr. Pick 5]

You're like the gift that keeps on giving.

It's ok you are MARRIED to NYRA....(you may have deleted the post and thread of the user that brought this to light but I saw it)....so it's ok I understand your position

[PaceAdvantage]

In regards to Jason Blewitt's departure from NYRA, Steve Haskin opened a mighty large can of worms as to the reason why he was let go. Appears that he is insinuating that Jason did something to force NYRA to fire him.Which would blow your grand theory in reply #3, right out of the water. Of course, that is, you have to put stock into what Haskin wrote...

[PaceAdvantage]

It's ok you are MARRIED to NYRA....(you may have deleted the post and thread of the user that brought this to light but I saw it)....so it's ok I understand your positionExcept I'm not married...so that blows another theory out of the water. You guys got any other genius theories to float here?

[Mr. Pick 5]

Except I'm not married...so that blows another theory out of the water. You guys got any other genius theories to float here?

Still sensing a connection...could be very wrong here, maybe that poster was wayy off....but you do seem to be very pro nyra so that narrative does figure

[PaceAdvantage]

Still sensing a connection...could be very wrong here, maybe that poster was wayy off....but you do seem to be very pro nyra so that narrative does figureYeah, cause I grew up on the product and I know a lot of people there and I actually know the truth on some things, unlike a lot of other people around here.

[PaceAdvantage]

By the way, we also found out that his old friend Greg Wolf (announced formally in this article) is the one that is replacing the locally popular Jason Blewitt. Horrible.And speaking of by the ways, doesn't Greg Wolf already do some work for Fox Sports? Why yes, yes he does...as the article points out "Greg Wolf, formerly of TVG and with Fox Sports..."

And didn't Greg Wolf host some of the shows at Saratoga WHILE Jason was still working there? Why yes, yes he did...

Keep those hits coming boys...

[Mr. Pick 5]

Yeah, cause I grew up on the product and I know a lot of people there and I actually know the truth on some things, unlike a lot of other people around here.

That's understandle....and I can see where you are coming from to an extent....I honestly don't see the real argument for getting rid of the channel however, which to me makes little to no sense for a good number of reasons....This issue has already been discussed in detail in the past so I guess we will just agree to disagree on that point

[NY Racing Fan]

Which would blow your grand theory in reply #3, right out of the water. Of course, that is, you have to put stock into what Haskin wrote...

You may be correct and I may owe NYRA an apology for that one. However, NYRA owes me about 1,000 apologies so I can't quite say that we are even.

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't know the inside story on the channel...but it just seems stupid to declare it an insanely bad business decision...I mean, I think we should all agree that they didn't just wake up one day and say "hey, you know, I think we'll shut down the NYC racing channel on cable...yeah...that sounds like something we could do to fill the day."

I have to assume some thought and study went into it, and a decision was made. It will take time to see how good or bad of a decision it was, but I'm sure the preliminary research pointed to it being a good business decision, despite EMD's protests.

[NY Racing Fan]

And speaking of by the ways, doesn't Greg Wolf already do some work for Fox Sports? Why yes, yes he does...as the article points out "Greg Wolf, formerly of TVG and with Fox Sports..."

And didn't Greg Wolf host some of the shows at Saratoga WHILE Jason was still working there? Why yes, yes he did...

Keep those hits coming boys...

FOX Sports did not hire Greg Wolf in the release announced today. NYRA did. Allevato met him @ TVG.

[NY Racing Fan]

I don't know the inside story on the channel...but it just seems stupid to declare it an insanely bad business decision...I mean, I think we should all agree that they didn't just wake up one day and say "hey, you know, I think we'll shut down the NYC racing channel on cable...yeah...that sounds like something we could do to fill the day."

I have to assume some thought and study went into it, and a decision was made. It will take time to see how good or bad of a decision it was, but I'm sure the preliminary research pointed to it being a good business decision, despite EMD's protests.

And what metrics do you or NYRA use to determine whether eliminating the NYC racing channel is a good or bad decision? There are none. You can't necessarily make any correlation between total handle before and after the removal of the channel. There has been the introduction of a national NYRA wagering platform as well as dozens of other components that can lead to increase or decrease in handle that have nothing to do with the local television network.

If you factor in the blended takeout rate with the various signal fees for out of state tracks, you only need $3M-$5M in total annual national handle to be driven from the local network to make it worthwhile to pay the $500K fee. And that has nothing to do with all of the other benefits, like having free advertising/promotion, exposure to new/old fans, etc. In my opinion, it was a terrible decision by NYRA.

[PaceAdvantage]

And what metrics do you or NYRA use to determine whether eliminating the NYC racing channel is a good or bad decision? There are none. You can't necessarily make any correlation between total handle before and after the removal of the channel. There has been the introduction of a national NYRA wagering platform as well as dozens of other components that can lead to increase or decrease in handle that have nothing to do with the local television network.

If you factor in the blended takeout rate with the various signal fees for out of state tracks, you only need $3M-$5M in total annual national handle to be driven from the local network to make it worthwhile to pay the $500K fee. And that has nothing to do with all of the other benefits, like having free advertising/promotion, exposure to new/old fans, etc. In my opinion, it was a terrible decision by NYRA.So basically, what you're saying is, NYRA eliminated a PROFITABLE venture for them?

Come on now man...even you can't be that illogical.

Do you really think NYRA would have gotten rid of the channel if they had the numbers in front of them SHOWING THEM they are MAKING MONEY on the deal? Or do you think maybe your numbers are way off, that they don't get anywhere near 10% of the action that is generated by the TV channel, and that those using the TV channel may not be betting quite as much as you think they are?

Like I said, if this was an insanely bad decision, the numbers will show it and the channel will be back. Even NYRA doesn't like to throw money away, believe it or not.

[PaceAdvantage]

FOX Sports did not hire Greg Wolf in the release announced today. NYRA did. Allevato met him @ TVG.He's ALREADY working for Fox Sports...says so right in the Haskin piece...he was already on the Saratoga shows...what more do you want?

[elhelmete]

So basically, what you're saying is, NYRA eliminated a PROFITABLE venture for them?

Come on now man...even you can't be that illogical.

Do you really think NYRA would have gotten rid of the channel if they had the numbers in front of them SHOWING THEM they are MAKING MONEY on the deal? Or do you think maybe your numbers are way off, that they don't get anywhere near 10% of the action that is generated by the TV channel, and that those using the TV channel may not be betting quite as much as you think they are?

Like I said, if this was an insanely bad decision, the numbers will show it and the channel will be back. Even NYRA doesn't like to throw money away, believe it or not.

Exactly (the bolded).

Plus, who knows what ADW people bet through after being motivated by watching the NYRA channel?

[dilanesp]

Somehow, I doubt this. Businesses aren't in the business of making insanely stupid business decisions. If it turns out to be insanely stupid, you can rest assured the channel will come back.

If it's not insanely stupid, then you can rest assured the channel won't come back.

It's quite simple. And as they said in the Godfather, it's not personal Sonny, it's strictly business.

I have no idea of whether this is a good allocation of resources for NYRA.

But I do know that NYRA is completely outside of your "businesses don't make insanely stupid business decisions". Protected non-profit sinecures are not the same as real businesses. As long as nobody can buy the New York tracks and put NYRA out of business, there's no reason to particularly assume that NYRA is going to make good business decisions.

[Si2see]

He's ALREADY working for Fox Sports...says so right in the Haskin piece...he was already on the Saratoga shows...what more do you want?

Right, he has been working for Fox Sports for a while now ( several times last year during college football season he was working the studio desk )... I agree with PA, if anyone is paying him to cover the New York racing, it would still be Fox Sports.

[Mr. Pick 5]

In regards to Jason Blewitt's departure from NYRA, Steve Haskin opened a mighty large can of worms as to the reason why he was let go. Appears that he is insinuating that Jason did something to force NYRA to fire him.

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-racing-steve-haskin/archive/2017/03/13/tracks-need-to-follow-nyra-s-tv-expansion.aspx

Comment section from bottom of article...


Jeffrey Byrnes • 6 minutes ago
Does anyone know the exact reason why Jason Blewitt left NYRA? I didn't a complete reason as to why? Steve?

Bryan Langlois • 21 minutes ago
Agree completely, although absolutely horrible decision to get rid of Jason. Not sure what NYRA was thinking on that one. He was the guy who always exuded what it was like to be a true fan of the sport.

Steve Haskin BH Staff Bryan Langlois • 15 minutes ago
Let's just say NYRA did not initiate this. It went beyond them and was something they had to do.

Haskin has since deleted that comment and another which he made regarding receiving information about the blewitt firing in a private phone conversation and that he couldn't elaborate and it was up to nyra to release the information...very interesting....

[NY Racing Fan]

Haskin has since deleted that comment and another which he made regarding receiving information about the blewitt firing in a private phone conversation and that he couldn't elaborate and it was up to nyra to release the information...very interesting....

It looks like Haskin has since deleted that comment as well. Big faux pas by Mr Haskin. We can all speculate on what Jason did but the speculation may be worse than whatever it was that he did.

[EMD4ME]

It looks like Haskin has since deleted that comment as well. Big faux pas by Mr Haskin. We can all speculate on what Jason did but the speculation may be worse than whatever it was that he did.

I still have the screen with his comments (open tab from earlier), if you need it for some peculiar reason, let me know.

[EMD4ME]

I don't know the inside story on the channel...but it just seems stupid to declare it an insanely bad business decision...I mean, I think we should all agree that they didn't just wake up one day and say "hey, you know, I think we'll shut down the NYC racing channel on cable...yeah...that sounds like something we could do to fill the day."

I have to assume some thought and study went into it, and a decision was made. It will take time to see how good or bad of a decision it was, but I'm sure the preliminary research pointed to it being a good business decision, despite EMD's protests.

You're right. They sent their friendly faces of the company out into the field to survey the hardcore fans and I have countless e-mails that asked me my opinion.
































NOT

[EMD4ME]

PA, I'll have you know, I have employees that complain to ME about how bad they feel fielding complaints about the channel being gone.

The employees call the decision stupid and they have little respect for their superiors.


I have a two tiered question for you. It's very simple.

What did NYRA gain by cutting the NYRA network in NYC?

What is the downside for cutting the NYRA network?

[EMD4ME]

My last comment is for the OP and his post (PA not the user)


WHO CARES?


Obviously NYRA DOES NOT think that TV coverage matters. SO WHY.........WHY would they care to ADD coverage?




Don't bother answering. We both know why.

1) To help Kay make his COMPLETELY ASSININE and unwarranted $250,000 bonus

2) They will make up for local lost revenue/exposure/advertising with 30 ADDITIONAL STATE'S worth of new ADW subscribers.



We all know the release will come out 1 day, where Kay and the other stooges come out and say:

We made NYRA profitable. We earned COUNTRY WIDE market share of the ADW market. (If total handle drops, they won't mention that). If total handle somehow goes up, they'll pat themselves on the back. However, when those states get smart and they increase or add their source market fee, NYRA will come a knocking to local residents again.

Problem is, they'll all be DEAD, gave up the game or just won't care anymore.

It takes 3 weeks to start a new habit. It's been 2 1/2 months of no network.


How you or ANYONE can defend losing access to 10 million people (INCLUDING YOUR BEST AND MOST PROFITABLE CLIENTS) in return for $500,000 is SO STUPIFYING!!!




And yes, I'm pissed. I will forever be pissed. I hate people who sit back, watch something stupid happen and 1) do nothing 2) defend it.


BURNS MY FRIEKEN CORE.

[EMD4ME]

Somehow, I doubt this. Businesses aren't in the business of making insanely stupid business decisions. If it turns out to be insanely stupid, you can rest assured the channel will come back.

If it's not insanely stupid, then you can rest assured the channel won't come back.

It's quite simple. And as they said in the Godfather, it's not personal Sonny, it's strictly business.

Regardless of it being stupid or not, the channel will not come back.

Why? Because they will live off of the increase from 0% market share to X% market share of ADW business in 30 states.

They could get 0% handle in NYS and they'll still come out ahead.

Problem is, no one will notice or care.

Game continues massive downward spiral as countless NYC residents get zero exposure to horse racing.

[elhelmete]

How you or ANYONE can defend losing access to 10 million people (INCLUDING YOUR BEST AND MOST PROFITABLE CLIENTS) in return for $500,000 is SO STUPIFYING!!!



All I can add is this.

In my day job a couple years ago, I had a project of much greater general interest than NYRA racing and was on a channel that was available in approximately 85,000,000+ homes.

It was one season and done. Sometimes we had 75,000 viewers. That's 0.0882%.

Take your 10 million (residents), and adjust for widely-available city-by-city cable subscription rates and it's a much lower number, which also implies strongly a much much lower actual viewership. Less that 1% is a reasonable assumption. And so on...

I'd have to see more than your rantings and anecdotal info to agree that those watching are NYRA's "BEST AND MOST PROFITABLE CLIENTS."

[elhelmete]

Game continues massive downward spiral as countless NYC residents get zero exposure to horse racing.

There have never been as many ways to watch racing as there are today.

[EMD4ME]

All I can add is this.

In my day job a couple years ago, I had a project of much greater general interest than NYRA racing and was on a channel that was available in approximately 85,000,000+ homes.

It was one season and done. Sometimes we had 75,000 viewers. That's 0.0882%.

Take your 10 million (residents), and adjust for widely-available city-by-city cable subscription rates and it's a much lower number, which also implies strongly a much much lower actual viewership. Less that 1% is a reasonable assumption. And so on...

I'd have to see more than your rantings and anecdotal info to agree that those watching are NYRA's "BEST AND MOST PROFITABLE CLIENTS."

Please allow me to help you see what I'm talking about. (Sincerely)

I am 40 years old, I am BY FAR the youngest of the NYRA Elite ($300,000 a year and over in handle. NYRA doesn't have a super ELITE club. It's either $150,000 plus a year or $300,000 plus) that I see week in and week out in NYRA'S VIP only rooms. I know many of the diehards who handle the most amount of money amongst NYRA's on track fans.

Every single one of the people I see 130 X a year (52 X 2 and 26 or so extra days I attend live), absolutely hate their decision. It's a way of life amongst players. When you wake up, the NYRA channel goes on. Till you sleep, it's the channel that's on in your house on most days. It's convenient (very short delays in transmission) and some people still have flip phones and BET VIA NYRA TELEBET!!!!

I have been asked, by NYRA employees and directly to coach others on how to use............................wait for it................................................ ....







the INTERNET!!!! How can I coach a 72 year old how to use the internet in between races???? I have been asked (By NYRA people) to assist a gentleman with his ROKU set up. I COULDN'T SET UP MY ROKU without great difficulty because of a trick that YOU NEED TO KNOW (It's not in the damn instructions).


If you're not a NYC horseplayer, I can't possibly explain to you what the issue is. You're talking about former NYC OTB players (of 20-30-40 years) or on track diehards.

They can't spell internet, never mind use it.

[EMD4ME]

There have never been as many ways to watch racing as there are today.

Where are you located? What state?

[elhelmete]

Where are you located? What state?

California.

[SuperPickle]

These threads really bring out the stupid comments.

First off Greg Wolf is not replacing Jason. If you think that I don't have a strong enough education in special needs education to explain it to you.

Greg Wolf is a Fox Sports Employee. He does both studio and sideline reporting during college basketball and football for them. He also hosts their racing broadcasts along with people like Maggie and The Mig. He does not work for NYRA. He fills in on TVG on busy weekends. For example next month you'll see him on air because TVG will have crews live at both Keeneland and Santa Anita so he'll get some studio work. However his primary job is at Fox. He is paid by Fox Sports. Jason Blewitt was paid by NYRA. He was a NYRA employee. Everyone grasp that?

Second off I don't understand how anyone can see this as anything but positive. NYRA got the second largest Sports Network outside of ESPN to essentially double their racing coverage. How is this not good for the game? Are you people really complaining that this isn't a correct move versus what? More coverage of the inner track? Stronger exposure for Thursdays at Belmont?

Basically NYRA is trying to build a national tv network that will show every Graded stake they run on national television. If you don't think this is a good thing I question your ability to understand what's really good.

[EMD4ME]

California.

What % of clients in Cali, (notice please, how I don't call them horseplayers) spent their lives betting horses 5 days a week on track OR at a dirty slimy OTB?

[EMD4ME]

These threads really bring out the stupid comments.

First off Greg Wolf is not replacing Jason. If you think that I don't have a strong enough education in special needs education to explain it to you.

Greg Wolf is a Fox Sports Employee. He does both studio and sideline reporting during college basketball and football for them. He also hosts their racing broadcasts along with people like Maggie and The Mig. He does not work for NYRA. He fills in on TVG on busy weekends. For example next month you'll see him on air because TVG will have crews live at both Keeneland and Santa Anita so he'll get some studio work. However his primary job is at Fox. He is paid by Fox Sports. Jason Blewitt was paid by NYRA. He was a NYRA employee. Everyone grasp that?

Second off I don't understand how anyone can see this as anything but positive. NYRA got the second largest Sports Network outside of ESPN to essentially double their racing coverage. How is this not good for the game? Are you people really complaining that this isn't a correct move versus what? More coverage of the inner track? Stronger exposure for Thursdays at Belmont?

Basically NYRA is trying to build a national tv network that will show every Graded stake they run on national television. If you don't think this is a good thing I question your ability to understand what's really good.

But but but but Superpickle, NYRA said that there are so many ways to watch a race, TV isn't needed anymore.

I'm so confused :confused::confused::confused: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[SuperPickle]

But but but but Superpickle, NYRA said that there are so many ways to watch a race, TV isn't needed anymore.

I'm so confused :confused::confused::confused: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


You're confused that there's a difference between a channel that has distribution in the millions (maybe even thousands given its only available in certain boroughs of one city in one state) with a channel that has the distribution in the hundreds of millions in 50 states and Canada?

As I said this thread does bring out the stupid in people.

[EMD4ME]

You're confused that there's a difference between a channel that has distribution in the millions (maybe even thousands given its only available in certain boroughs of one city in one state) with a channel that has the distribution in the hundreds of millions in 50 states and Canada?

As I said this thread does bring out the stupid in people.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I am not sure if you know but :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: means I was being sarcastic ....

[SuperPickle]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I am not sure if you know but :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: means I was being sarcastic ....

My bad EMD. I still love ya!

[EMD4ME]

You're confused that there's a difference between a channel that has distribution in the millions (maybe even thousands given its only available in certain boroughs of one city in one state) with a channel that has the distribution in the hundreds of millions in 50 states and Canada?

As I said this thread does bring out the stupid in people.

SuperPickle, I get it man. Let's gain market share in 30 states and go from 0% to 25% market share (of ADW action). That way instead of getting 5% or whatever their signal fee is for "foreign" wagers, now they can get a full 16%-25% on each dollar wagered.


My issue is with just pissing on your local residents who live within 12 miles of AQU and BEL and saying to them: adjust or F OFF.

If it wasn't for their new "market", I'd bet my LIFE, the NYRA network wouldn't be going anywhere.



Now, please allow me to talk about this from a GRANDER perspective. From an overall (across the USA, from Cali to NY) perspective, does NYRA having access to 30 states GROW THE GAME? Absolutely not. This is strictly about market share of the ADW action. It's STILL THE SAME OVERALL PIE.

Except for 1 problem. With NYRA'S actions, I am 100000000000000% sure, BET MY LIFE, MY MOTHER'S LIFE, MY DAD'S LIFE and my other loved one's LIVES, 10000000000000000% sure, that THE game, that NYRA, has lost clients due to the loss of the NYRA Network.


How do I know? I see them everyday. I talk to them all the time. They're my family. They're my acquaintances, they're my neighborhood people, they're the people I see on track.

NYRA has just reduced the amount of


1) Horseplayers who bet on horses in NYC
2) The amount of money that the remaining horseplayers bet in NYC


Explain to me, as this thread has brought out the STUPID in me (BEING SARCASTIC), HOW the decrease in the amount of fans betting horses in NYC, is



GOOD FOR THE GAME?????

[Mr. Pick 5]

You're confused that there's a difference between a channel that has distribution in the millions (maybe even thousands given its only available in certain boroughs of one city in one state) with a channel that has the distribution in the hundreds of millions in 50 states and Canada?

As I said this thread does bring out the stupid in people.

Hate to inform you but your are wrong again....fox sports 2 doesn't even reach 100 million homes....to claim it reaches hundreds of millions is just WAY OFF.....and to think you tried to call the other people here stupid :lol::lol::lol:

[EMD4ME]

My bad EMD. I still love ya!

You love me? :confused::confused::confused::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Just kidding, we're debating. It's all cool. :lol::lol::lol:

[elhelmete]

What % of clients in Cali, (notice please, how I don't call them horseplayers) spent their lives betting horses 5 days a week on track OR at a dirty slimy OTB?

0%. Happy?

I'm sure when NYRA reports a plummeting handle, you'll feel vindicated.

[EMD4ME]

0%. Happy?

I'm sure when NYRA reports a plummeting handle, you'll feel vindicated.

Where in the world would you EVER get the idea that I care about:

1) Being right
2) Being vindicated
3) anything but.............



THE GAME GROWING AND SURVIVING.


All I care about is the game that I frieken love, growing and surviving.


I'd trade me being 100000000000000% wrong, over and over again in return for the game thriving and growing.


Now, as for the 0% answer, I respectfully will say that you don't know (which is fine, how could you? You're not from NYC) the NYC horseplayer market.


Average age in the high 60's to 70's. Most all spent their lives in a NYC OTB or on track. They have an ADW account because it gives some rebates and allows telephone wagering while they watch the NYRA Network.

These players lived the following. Either get on track or wager at a dirty filthy OTB where all you got was a screen that changed every 25 minutes and said:

B

A

D


They then evolved to hearing race calls.


They then evolved to a live TV showing the race.

They then evolved to either A) A NYCOTB Betting account and watching the races at home on the NYCOTB HORSE NETWORK while betting on the phone or B) A NYRA REWARDS account, watching the races on the NYCOTB HORSE NETWORK and wagering via NYRA TELEBET. or C) on track or D) at illegal horse/bookie operations. Trust me, I've seen them and been inside of them.


Then in Dec of 2010, NYC OTB closed.

They were begged to open a NYRA REWARDS account. They were BEGGED to wager via NYRA TELEBET, ON TRACK or worst case on line. NYRA said we'll continue the NYC OTB HORSE NETWORK. We'll make it the NYRA Network.

6 years later, after these fans stayed loyal and hit 70, 75 years old, they DUMPED EM LIKE a sack of potatoes as this STUPID SHORTSIGHTED GOV CUOMO appointed regime of stooges realized, we don't need this anymore. We have access to 30 new states. Who cares if we shrink our base of fans. We can just steal some of Twin Spire's fans, some of XPRESS BET's fans, some of Bet America's fans, some of ABC ADW's fans.



When this game dies. I will BLAME EACH and every one of the people who defended this stupidity. How any of you can not see it, STUPIFIES the remaining brain cells that I possess.

How any of you who defend this, call yourselves fans and participate in a horse forum, makes me :bang::bang::bang::bang::bang:


I hope this clarified things for you and I hope you now realize just how much I couldn't care less about being right. All I care about is this JUNKEN game surviving and thriving.

[ReplayRandall]

Move over to the tourney side of the street EMD, the learning curve is the only thing you'll have to overcome, better overall experience by far....

[EMD4ME]

Move over to the tourney side of the street EMD, the learning curve is the only thing you'll have to overcome, better overall experience by far....

I took the 1st baby step by listening to Thaskalos in the TLG thread (making my own $2 win picks) and then by playing someone who's extremely experienced in NCG.

Trust me, I have already learned a few things. One being: We (NCG and I) both liked a $50 horse in Feb. I bet the $50 horse in DD's, P3's and P4's but I didn't select the horse to win in the thread. That won't happen again.

Just like the Pick 5, I won't go in until I feel comfortable. No one likes being the fish. Your advice is always golden. You're a good man Replay Randall.:ThmbUp:

[dilanesp]

Second off I don't understand how anyone can see this as anything but positive. NYRA got the second largest Sports Network outside of ESPN to essentially double their racing coverage. How is this not good for the game? Are you people really complaining that this isn't a correct move versus what? More coverage of the inner track? Stronger exposure for Thursdays at Belmont?

I am all for more racing on television, but this paragraph contains a TON of spin. Nobody watches FS2. A lot of homes don't even get it.

If you are going to look beyond TVG and in-house networks, you want to put the races on something with a lot of distribution, because you are trying to reach casual and non-fans who don't watch TVG. NYRA's deal with NBC for Saratoga races is an example of that.

FS2 isn't going to draw any new blood.

[SuperPickle]

Hate to inform you but your are wrong again....fox sports 2 doesn't even reach 100 million homes....to claim it reaches hundreds of millions is just WAY OFF.....and to think you tried to call the other people here stupid :lol::lol::lol:

As of 25 months ago they had 45 million homes....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_Sports_2

Given its 25 months ago and combining it with streaming which wasn't launched yet they have a number approaching that. Also some of the NYRA shows will be on FS1 which clearly has 100 million.

But regardless of the number is the point I'm trying to make that you're nitpicking at is it greatly broadens the reach of their product which is a good thing.

[SuperPickle]

I am all for more racing on television, but this paragraph contains a TON of spin. Nobody watches FS2. A lot of homes don't even get it.

If you are going to look beyond TVG and in-house networks, you want to put the races on something with a lot of distribution, because you are trying to reach casual and non-fans who don't watch TVG. NYRA's deal with NBC for Saratoga races is an example of that.

FS2 isn't going to draw any new blood.

You guys have me cracking up on this FS2 stuff. The U.S. has about 310 million people. Around 200 million of them have access to cable. 25-50% have access to that channel on television, more if you factor in streaming. So it's a really audience.

Yeah I get FS2 isn't sexy. But here's what you're missing. ESPN won't even show horse racing. The fact NYRA got any deal is impressive. Also if they make the deal work it opens the possibility of more events and channels with more reach.

Yeah I get it it's not Wide World of Sports on a Saturday in 1984. But it's a deal that puts big races on national tv in front of millions of people.

Again there's nothing bad here.

[dilanesp]

You guys have me cracking up on this FS2 stuff. The U.S. has about 310 million people. Around 200 million of them have access to cable. 25-50% have access to that channel on television, more if you factor in streaming. So it's a really audience.

Yeah I get FS2 isn't sexy. But here's what you're missing. ESPN won't even show horse racing. The fact NYRA got any deal is impressive. Also if they make the deal work it opens the possibility of more events and channels with more reach.

Yeah I get it it's not Wide World of Sports on a Saturday in 1984. But it's a deal that puts big races on national tv in front of millions of people.

Again there's nothing bad here.

I would bet that unless a baseball playoff got shunted there once, there is not a single telecast in the history of FS2 that had an audience of millions of people.

[no breathalyzer]

My cable provider doesn't even offer FS2!

[Secondbest]

Just because they signed a deal doesn't mean anything. Mike Francesca had a deal to be on fs2 all they did was preempt him for soccer.The same will happen to nyra.
What I want to know does this mean that the MSG show they did from Belmont and Saratoga is now out.?

[NTamm1215]

People complain about the game dying and having no appeal to new fans then find fault with a major racing entity trying to get their product broadcast on a mainstream cable TV channel. Only in racing!

[dilanesp]

People complain about the game dying and having no appeal to new fans then find fault with a major racing entity trying to get their product broadcast on a mainstream cable TV channel. Only in racing!


Again, this is not a mainstream cable channel. It's a meaningless channel nobody watches.

[sour grapes]

msg will still be doing the belmont and saratoga live along with fox sports.

[Redboard]

My cable provider doesn't even offer FS2!

My Comcast in South Jersey doesn't carry it either.

However, I think it's a good move because I wasn't able to see the NYRA channel anyway (the only time I ever saw it was when I stayed in a NY motel, and when I did it was in low def.)

I'm sure Comcast will eventually include FS2. At least, there's a better chance of that happening than there ever was of Comcast carrying the NYRA network.

(PS: I don't watch racing on my computer, and don't ever want to.)

[cj]

(PS: I don't watch racing on my computer, and don't ever want to.)

I hear this a lot, and I understand it. That said, if you hook a computer up to your television via the HDMI port (preferable) or the VGA, it looks fabulous these days with all the great signals available. There are Chromebooks and laptops out there for under $200 so it isn't even out of the realm of possibility to have one dedicated for viewing on the television.

[Redboard]

I hear this a lot, and I understand it. That said, if you hook a computer up to your television via the HDMI port (preferable) or the VGA, it looks fabulous these days with all the great signals available. There are Chromebooks and laptops out there for under $200 so it isn't even out of the realm of possibility to have one dedicated for viewing on the television.

I get your point and feel that I'm technically competent to hook something up. I used to have something hooked up for the old HRTV, but I got pissed at it and took it down.

No matter what you have hooked up, it’s not as convenient as having it as another channel.

•Flipping Between Channels: I watch racing as another sport (football, tennis, golf, hockey, basketball, etc.) and flipping between sports is not as easy when racing is hooked up to another port on the TV. Not impossible, just not as convenient.

•Recording: Most times, I record sporting events then watch them later. In the morning, I might make bets for the day, then set the TV to record, for example TVG, and watch it when I get home.

Now, if I were a serious handicapper who lived and breathe racing and/or depended on it for a living, I could put up with the inconveniences, in fact, I probably would just watch it on the computer, in that case.

[EMD4ME]

I hear this a lot, and I understand it. That said, if you hook a computer up to your television via the HDMI port (preferable) or the VGA, it looks fabulous these days with all the great signals available. There are Chromebooks and laptops out there for under $200 so it isn't even out of the realm of possibility to have one dedicated for viewing on the television.

The NYRA channel had 4 tracks back to back to back to back. You didn't need to get up and click on the computer to check the next track out.

It takes away the "bait". The bait meaning if the channel is on, you're constantly tempted to bet 4 tracks. Now, even if you do what you said, it's just 1.

Just stupid when it comes to gaining handle.

Just stupid when it comes to giving convenience to your clients.

[elhelmete]

The NYRA channel had 4 tracks back to back to back to back. You didn't need to get up and click on the computer to check the next track out.

It takes away the "bait". The bait meaning if the channel is on, you're constantly tempted to bet 4 tracks. Now, even if you do what you said, it's just 1.

Just stupid when it comes to gaining handle.

Just stupid when it comes to giving convenience to your clients.

Yeah NO other channel shows multiple tracks back-to-back.

My 13 year old can watch multiple screens wirelessly sent from her computer to our 60" TV. No getting up. No clicking.

[EMD4ME]

Yeah NO other channel shows multiple tracks back-to-back.

My 13 year old can watch multiple screens wirelessly sent from her computer to our 60" TV. No getting up. No clicking.

Good for your 13 year old. I don't know how to do that and I'm not ashamed.

When I watch on my PC (hooked to a large screen HD monitor) all I can watch is 1 race at a time. I have to click into the "race watcher" and click to the track I want to watch.

If I get another laptop, hook it up via HDMI, won't I have to get up and click OR at best use a wireless mouse to click to another track?

That's annoying. Especially when I had a simple nice channel showing me 4 tracks (back and forth as post times changed) conveniently.

To NYRA. I'm your client. I bet a million bucks. YOU make me happy and convenient, don't tell me how to enjoy my passion.

[elhelmete]

Good for your 13 year old. I don't know how to do that and I'm not ashamed.

When I watch on my PC (hooked to a large screen HD monitor) all I can watch is 1 race at a time. I have to click into the "race watcher" and click to the track I want to watch.

If I get another laptop, hook it up via HDMI, won't I have to get up and click OR at best use a wireless mouse to click to another track?

That's annoying. Especially when I had a simple nice channel showing me 4 tracks (back and forth as post times changed) conveniently.

To NYRA. I'm your client. I bet a million bucks. YOU make me happy and convenient, don't tell me how to enjoy my passion.

I have Xpressbet. I can have 2 feeds at once on one laptop. Within those two feeds I can pick any tracks with a simple click.

I have several options how to get the pictures off my 15" laptop screen. In my office/lounge/betting parlor I have a separate and adjacent 24" computer screen I can HDMI into, or I can HDMI over to my 46" 4K tv or I can wireless to the TV. I usually wireless to the TV if I've got company. If it's me I just HDMI into my second screen. FWIW, most everyone I work with in my day job uses a 2nd screen for their work computer, so it's not a foreign concept for me.

Often times I will also have TVG on my TV and the XPressbet feeds on my second screen.

This setup is so much more flexible than watching ONE linear channel, which even with split screens can't always show all the post parades and warmups along with live racing.

I'm almost 50yo, BTW.

The only thing that this setup (and ones like it) lack is a reliable recording function.

[Secondbest]

msg will still be doing the belmont and saratoga live along with fox sports.
That's great. Thanks

[EMD4ME]

I have Xpressbet. I can have 2 feeds at once on one laptop. Within those two feeds I can pick any tracks with a simple click.

I have several options how to get the pictures off my 15" laptop screen. In my office/lounge/betting parlor I have a separate and adjacent 24" computer screen I can HDMI into, or I can HDMI over to my 46" 4K tv or I can wireless to the TV. I usually wireless to the TV if I've got company. If it's me I just HDMI into my second screen. FWIW, most everyone I work with in my day job uses a 2nd screen for their work computer, so it's not a foreign concept for me.

Often times I will also have TVG on my TV and the XPressbet feeds on my second screen.

This setup is so much more flexible than watching ONE linear channel, which even with split screens can't always show all the post parades and warmups along with live racing.

I'm almost 50yo, BTW.

The only thing that this setup (and ones like it) lack is a reliable recording function.

I'll show this to my 77 year old father and legally blind mother. Oh, Ill show this post to the dozens of on track 70 plus guys.

I'll circle back with you when we're all set up.

Give us about 28 years.

[EMD4ME]

Once again, you're missing THE point.


The client is not only inconvenienced, they are shut out. PERIOD.


It's a STUPID way to do business in NYC.


May work in Nebraska, Florida, Cali or Alaska but not in NYC. Different crowd.


As for me, I appreciate your point. It may help me 1 day. Thank you.

[ReplayRandall]

The only thing that this setup (and ones like it) lack is a reliable recording function.
I always knew that the DVD/VHS recorder I bought years ago, along with a dozen of VHS blank tapes, would come in handy one day....Been using it for about 3 years now.

[cj]

Good for your 13 year old. I don't know how to do that and I'm not ashamed.

When I watch on my PC (hooked to a large screen HD monitor) all I can watch is 1 race at a time. I have to click into the "race watcher" and click to the track I want to watch.

If I get another laptop, hook it up via HDMI, won't I have to get up and click OR at best use a wireless mouse to click to another track?

That's annoying. Especially when I had a simple nice channel showing me 4 tracks (back and forth as post times changed) conveniently.

To NYRA. I'm your client. I bet a million bucks. YOU make me happy and convenient, don't tell me how to enjoy my passion.

It is annoying to click a wireless mouse? Isn't it about the same as clicking a remote?

[EMD4ME]

It is annoying to click a wireless mouse? Isn't it about the same as clicking a remote?

For me, watching on my Laptop/HD monitor I can almost deal with it.


For my parents and uncle, not even remotely an option.


For the countless NYRA VIP's who have no internet option, not even an option.

P.S. There are what? 200 races a day? You want a horseplayer to remember to click 200 times a day to another race? I'm not talking about me or you. I'm talking about the older folk who even if they knew how, that would be so annoying to do.


You have to remember. For 20 plus years, we simply watched a channel that went back and forth amongst countless tracks that were coming up.

This game is DYING. Why would you make it much harder for someone to be enticed into a wager? Or to find a race to wager on? Or to simply focus on their handicapping???

[EMD4ME]

Do you know how utterly annoying it is to watch these idiots, advertise their new NYRA bets cross country all the while, us NYC diehards get told: WE DON'T CARE ABOUT WHAT YOU AND WHAT YOU HAD.

Don't like it, go away is the message.

No replies from MGT. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing.

I honestly am sick and tired of being deep in thought on track and getting asked where's the channel. How can I watch races. I feel bad and I help but it is so annoying. I don't work for NYRA. Many times I feel like I do.


Now, we're told: HEY LOOK , we're expanding coverage!!! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

That only makes me burn even more. Go F your additional coverage.

[ReplayRandall]

Do you know how utterly annoying it is to watch these idiots, advertise their new NYRA bets cross country all the while, us NYC diehards get told: WE DON'T CARE ABOUT WHAT YOU AND WHAT YOU HAD.

Don't like it, go away is the message.

No replies from MGT. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing.

I honestly am sick and tired of being deep in thought on track and getting asked where's the channel. How can I watch races. I feel bad and I help but it is so annoying. I don't work for NYRA. Many times I feel like I do.


Now, we're told: HEY LOOK , we're expanding coverage!!! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

That only makes me burn even more. Go F your additional coverage.
Your post reminded me of a long ago story my grandfather told me about his father, who just loved his horse and buggy. Automobiles were becoming all the rage with Ford putting out the Model A, then the very affordable Model T. Everyone had now switched over to the auto except for a few holdouts, my great-grandfather being one of them. No matter the convincing argument for the advantages of the auto, he would angrily not relent. In the end, he never gave in and came up with his own solution...He became AMISH.:rip:

[EMD4ME]

Your post reminded me of a long ago story my grandfather told me about his father, who just loved his horse and buggy. Automobiles were becoming all the rage with Ford putting out the Model A, then the very affordable Model T. Everyone had now switched over to the auto except for a few holdouts, my great-grandfather being one of them. No matter the convincing argument for the advantages of the auto, he would angrily not relent. In the end, he never gave in and came up with his own solution...He became AMISH.:rip:

Great story but like I said, someone like me can live with it, albeit it does impact how I work and how I enjoy the game.


I'm talking about the masses on track who now bet less. The ones who bet via telebet or made bets on track and went home to watch the races later.

[elhelmete]

Great story but like I said, someone like me can live with it, albeit it does impact how I work and how I enjoy the game.

You can live with it?


I'm talking about the masses on track who now bet less. The ones who bet via telebet or made bets on track and went home to watch the races later.

I'm sure Matlock or Judge Judy conflicts with the old show, so they might have to learn a new way.

[elhelmete]

For me, watching on my Laptop/HD monitor I can almost deal with it.


For my parents and uncle, not even remotely an option.


OK, 2 people.

For the countless NYRA VIP's who have no internet option, not even an option.

COuntless? To whom? You're supposedly top 1% of your class and you can't adapt a little bit? They need 'enticement' to bet which is only available via the old-school NYRA channel in standard def?

P.S. There are what? 200 races a day? You want a horseplayer to remember to click 200 times a day to another race? I'm not talking about me or you. I'm talking about the older folk who even if they knew how, that would be so annoying to do.

But they can dial into Telebet 200 times and press buttons there? They use SAMs on track?

You have to remember. For 20 plus years, we simply watched a channel that went back and forth amongst countless tracks that were coming up.

Yeah, TVG. Oh wait....

This game is DYING. Why would you make it much harder for someone to be enticed into a wager? Or to find a race to wager on? Or to simply focus on their handicapping???

Whatever validity your complaint has, and I'm willing to admit it has some, your arguments here are so unfocused, anecdotal, and flimsy it's really exposing your bare butt here.

[EMD4ME]

You can live with it?

If I absolutely wanted to play the game, I could physically turn my laptop on and monitor, do my thing and wager. I hate it as I can't see the horses warming up as I cap BUT I can physically live with it. I hate it but I CAN physically play.

Other's PHYSICALLY CAN NOT. What part do you not understand?

I now get the sense you're not conversing to understand and be open to someone else's opinions.


I'm sure Matlock or Judge Judy conflicts with the old show, so they might have to learn a new way.


Sure, I'll show my halfway blind mother how to do that. Right after we teach her how to use a cell phone :rolleyes:



See above

[EMD4ME]

OK, 2 people.



COuntless? To whom? You're supposedly top 1% of your class and you can't adapt a little bit? They need 'enticement' to bet which is only available via the old-school NYRA channel in standard def?



But they can dial into Telebet 200 times and press buttons there? They use SAMs on track?



Yeah, TVG. Oh wait....



Whatever validity your complaint has, and I'm willing to admit it has some, your arguments here are so unfocused, anecdotal, and flimsy it's really exposing your bare butt here.

Not exposing a thing. If you've been reading since the beginning, even someone who is blindly personally against me, could SEE what I am talking about.


People just like to argue based on biased opinions here.

There is zero logic to defend what NYRA did unless you work for NYRA or are from another planet/state and just don't get IT.

[cj]

For me, watching on my Laptop/HD monitor I can almost deal with it.


For my parents and uncle, not even remotely an option.


For the countless NYRA VIP's who have no internet option, not even an option.

P.S. There are what? 200 races a day? You want a horseplayer to remember to click 200 times a day to another race? I'm not talking about me or you. I'm talking about the older folk who even if they knew how, that would be so annoying to do.


You have to remember. For 20 plus years, we simply watched a channel that went back and forth amongst countless tracks that were coming up.

This game is DYING. Why would you make it much harder for someone to be enticed into a wager? Or to find a race to wager on? Or to simply focus on their handicapping???

I'm not really talking about the NYRA station. I don't live in New York and don't know enough about it to comment. I'm sure having it on TV was easier.

I was just saying if people want to take a few minutes to hook up a computer to the television it is really easy to do and the quality is really good for the tracks with and HD signal. Xpressbet offers signals in HD too and it is pretty easy to set up and see what races are coming up.

It is really easy to switch between inputs these days, as easy as changing channels with most remotes. I go back and forth between sports and racing all the time. For people outside NYC, access to live racing is as good or better than it has ever been in my opinion.

[aaron]

Not exposing a thing. If you've been reading since the beginning, even someone who is blindly personally against me, could SEE what I am talking about.


People just like to argue based on biased opinions here.

There is zero logic to defend what NYRA did unless you work for NYRA or are from another planet/state and just don't get IT.
Here is a list of things NYRA has given players and then taken away.
1-Free admission to account holders who maintained a $1000.00 balance.
2-The Racing replay show on TV.
3-Free parking at Aqueduct
4-Live racing on TV in New York City.
5-Raised the price of traditional program $2.50 after initially discontinuing this.{it is only the entries}.
6-Admission at Belmont is $5.00 up from $2.00 for grandstand admission.
In fairness to NYRA Baseball,Football,and Basketball have also taken away from their fans. Charging for PSL's and moving loyal customers from prime seating to lesser seats by raising prices.
The only difference is people continue to go to the other sports, while racing has become basically a studio show except for certain boutique meets.
In NY bettors/fans don't appreciate being given some terrific benefits and then having them taken away.

[EMD4ME]

OK, 2 people.



COuntless? To whom? You're supposedly top 1% of your class and you can't adapt a little bit? They need 'enticement' to bet which is only available via the old-school NYRA channel in standard def?



But they can dial into Telebet 200 times and press buttons there? They use SAMs on track?



Yeah, TVG. Oh wait....



Whatever validity your complaint has, and I'm willing to admit it has some, your arguments here are so unfocused, anecdotal, and flimsy it's really exposing your bare butt here.

Telebet is live operators. No buttons to push.



TVG not an option for most NYC residents. Spectrum wants $50 a month for a terrible product.

[EMD4ME]

Here is a list of things NYRA has given players and then taken away.
1-Free admission to account holders who maintained a $1000.00 balance.
2-The Racing replay show on TV.
3-Free parking at Aqueduct
4-Live racing on TV in New York City.
5-Raised the price of traditional program $2.50 after initially discontinuing this.{it is only the entries}.
6-Admission at Belmont is $5.00 up from $2.00 for grandstand admission.
In fairness to NYRA Baseball,Football,and Basketball have also taken away from their fans. Charging for PSL's and moving loyal customers from prime seating to lesser seats by raising prices.
The only difference is people continue to go to the other sports, while racing has become basically a studio show except for certain boutique meets.
In NY bettors/fans don't appreciate being given some terrific benefits and then having them taken away.

Thank you Aaron but we're talking to non NYC diehards. They just can't understand the environment in NYC, life at a NYC OTB etc.

If you never had it OR have been conditioned a certain way, there is no going back.


Best analogy I can give is: Imagine you are CJ or some California gal/guy and now you have to listen to the race call, no more ability to see the race.

You'll be on here complaining all day, believe me.

[elhelmete]

Here is a list of things NYRA has given players and then taken away.
1-Free admission to account holders who maintained a $1000.00 balance.
2-The Racing replay show on TV.
3-Free parking at Aqueduct
4-Live racing on TV in New York City.
5-Raised the price of traditional program $2.50 after initially discontinuing this.{it is only the entries}.
6-Admission at Belmont is $5.00 up from $2.00 for grandstand admission.
In fairness to NYRA Baseball,Football,and Basketball have also taken away from their fans. Charging for PSL's and moving loyal customers from prime seating to lesser seats by raising prices.
The only difference is people continue to go to the other sports, while racing has become basically a studio show except for certain boutique meets.
In NY bettors/fans don't appreciate being given some terrific benefits and then having them taken away.

Now this synopsis, to be honest, places it in much better perspective, especially the bolded.

I think NYRA (in this case, but horse racing in general), has for a long time been undercharging/overdelivering certain benefits in comparison to their gambling/sports cohorts, and they're discovering how hard it is to adjust their expenses and benefits. Just human nature. They ignored so much over time they're now caught in a high-expense world with a very f'd up pricing model.

BTW, I'm still pissed I can't use my Palm Treo and my Windows 95 PC.

[elhelmete]

Thank you Aaron but we're talking to non NYC diehards. They just can't understand the environment in NYC, life at a NYC OTB etc.

If you never had it OR have been conditioned a certain way, there is no going back.


Best analogy I can give is: Imagine you are CJ or some California gal/guy and now you have to listen to the race call, no more ability to see the race.

You'll be on here complaining all day, believe me.

Except the bolded is 1000% wrong. Credibility gone.

[aaron]

Thank you Aaron but we're talking to non NYC diehards. They just can't understand the environment in NYC, life at a NYC OTB etc.

If you never had it OR have been conditioned a certain way, there is no going back.


Best analogy I can give is: Imagine you are CJ or some California gal/guy and now you have to listen to the race call, no more ability to see the race.

You'll be on here complaining all day, believe me.

The point I am trying to make is that NYRA once was very progressive and gave their customers, benefits that were not available else where, but recently,they seem to be going in the other direction. You would think with all the slot money, they would give something back to the fans.

[EMD4ME]

Except the bolded is 1000% wrong. Credibility gone.

Now, I seriously see you are just being a troll.


You simply refuse to understand that I personally know, MANY on track people, who if they are NOT ON TRACK, can not see a race.

Whatever elhelmete. Be well sir.

[EMD4ME]

The point I am trying to make is that NYRA once was very progressive and gave their customers, benefits that were not available else where, but recently,they seem to be going in the other direction. You would think with all the slot money, they would give something back to the fans.

Yes, I agree, they were ahead of the curve.

Now, they somehow found ways to be behind everyone else.

1) No more ability to watch a race live before the wire at AQU.
2) Rebates were reduced (won't say how publicly)
3) Your list
4) Begged NYC OTB players to open accounts for rebates, phone wagering, watch the races on the TV channel we BOUGHT FOR YOU! Now, sorry, no more TV Channel.
5) closed Belmont VIP room for SPA 2014 meet.

Goes on and on.

[cj]

The NYRA Channel thing has been beat to death. Can we stick to the FS2 deal going forward? Thanks in advance?

[aaron]

The NYRA Channel thing has been beat to death. Can we stick to the FS2 deal going forward? Thanks in advance?

There is not much to say about FS2 deal. Nothing negative. It felt it was a positive last year and I feel it is a positive this year. A well done show.

[Tom]

People complain about the game dying and having no appeal to new fans then find fault with a major racing entity trying to get their product broadcast on a mainstream cable TV channel. Only in racing!

But it appears to be a premium - read: pay a lot extra on both Dish and TW.

Not interested.

[no breathalyzer]

But it appears to be a premium - read: pay a lot extra on both Dish and TW.

Not interested.

The last time i checked Comcast where i live didn't even offer FS2.. the channel must be pretty weak. I was disappointed last yr when i tried to tune in to watch

[dilanesp]

The last time i checked Comcast where i live didn't even offer FS2.. the channel must be pretty weak. I was disappointed last yr when i tried to tune in to watch


The public access channel that aired "Wayne's World" had more viewers.

[EMD4ME]

The public access channel that aired "Wayne's World" had more viewers.

:lol::lol: funny!!!

[thespaah]

They act like a few days of coverage on an obscure network like FS2 is some kind of solution for getting rid of the nyra channel....PATHETIC.....and haskin is singing the praises of nyra....almost just as pathetic :lol: ....these guys really just don't grasp the real issues apparently :bang:

As of Feb 2015 FS2 had an audience of 46 million tv homes. Hardly obscure
in any event, the cable channel thing in NYC is a mystery. However, NYRA provides a feed on line. HD quality. Anyone with a computer and a high speed internet connection can watch the day's races with no commercials.
Yes, i get it with the older folks wanting to pick up the remote( clicker) hit "on" and push two other buttons( for the channel number) and leave it alone for the next 6 hours....Here's the thing.
My friend's parents, both in their early 80's have made the adjustment. And they did not have to. They live upstate and still can watch live tv. He ( Dad) has the computer on the NYRA feed. He says its easier to make the bets on line instead of calling OTB.
Everyone will have to adjust.

[thespaah]

I'm sure that spotty coverage on FS2 is really gonna bring them the ratings :lol:

Please define "spotty".

[thespaah]

Still sensing a connection...could be very wrong here, maybe that poster was wayy off....but you do seem to be very pro nyra so that narrative does figure

And , you are anti NYRA. Touche....Or am I wrong and you are just complaining about this one issue( The channel)?

[thespaah]

That's understandle....and I can see where you are coming from to an extent....I honestly don't see the real argument for getting rid of the channel however, which to me makes little to no sense for a good number of reasons....This issue has already been discussed in detail in the past so I guess we will just agree to disagree on that point

The possibility that the cable operators wanted NYRA to pay more for the channel than NYRA management was willing to pay? Or perhaps the cable operators simply wanted the channel gone?

[dilanesp]

As of Feb 2015 FS2 had an audience of 46 million tv homes..

Only in the same sense that this website has an audience of 2 billion internet users worldwide.

[Secondbest]

The possibility that the cable operators wanted NYRA to pay more for the channel than NYRA management was willing to pay? Or perhaps the cable operators simply wanted the channel gone?

The former

[EMD4ME]

The former

$500,000 . That's pennies in today's world.

[Mr. Pick 5]

And , you are anti NYRA. Touche....Or am I wrong and you are just complaining about this one issue( The channel)?

Far from what you could consider anti nyra....I think they could do a lot of things better and definitely messed up with the channel....but I don't have any type of vendetta against them

[Mr. Pick 5]

Please define "spotty".

Sure....spotty as in they are only covering the meet in spots, and not on a daily basis....I think they are doing all or atleast a good portion of the toga meet from my understanding but Belmont only gets a few days of coverage

[PaceAdvantage]

$500,000 . That's pennies in today's world.Yet Kay's $250,000 bonus, which you love ranting about, is the end of the world to you....but the $500,000 that NYRA has to pay to keep the channel going...that's "mere pennies."

Funny how that works...

[EMD4ME]

Yet Kay's $250,000 bonus, which you love ranting about, is the end of the world to you....but the $500,000 that NYRA has to pay to keep the channel going...that's "mere pennies."

Funny how that works...

That's 2 different things. Here's why.

1)If the customers are being impacted severely (and we both know that turning your back on most of your decades long followers by cutting the channel to penny pinch is so wrong ) all so YOU can secure your $250,000 bonus, THAT is so messed up.

2)$500,000 in expenses to NYRA is pennies..
$250,000 to an individual is sizeable coin..

If 5,000,000 or so in handle is lost ( in wagers on nyra tracks and other tracks via nyra rewards/TV channel) then he just cost his company money.

And he gets a bonus for it because the 30 state expansion of nyra bets makes UP FOR it and their bone head decision is covered up.

I can't believe you of all people dont see that.

Having a non profit (for NY fans to enjoy) be leveraged for 1 persons $250,000 is REPULSIVE & DISGUSTING.

I couldnt care less if he makes 2,000,000 but when people lose access to something that should still be there for his gain, it borders on CORRUPT misuse of funds.

Remember. NYRA is a non profit that exists for the industry and fans to enjoy.

Someone and some people seem to have forgotten that.

[elhelmete]

When NYRA reports a confirmed $5m drop in handle from former channel watchers, all will be proven and I'm sure corrective action taken.

[PaceAdvantage]

EMD, why are you linking the $500,000 fee to Kay's bonus? And is he eligible for that bonus every year? Last I see he received this bonus was 2014. He didn't get it in 2015 or 2016 that I can find.

Isn't EVERYTHING related to the bonus? Why rant on the channel as being the linchpin to this bonus (if the bonus even exists any longer)?

After stuff like this from last year:

http://www.drf.com/news/comptrollers-office-says-nyra-fails-generate-surplus-racing-operations

I doubt Kay is going to be seeing a bonus anytime soon...channel or no channel.

[aaron]

Is it possible for racing to be profitable on its own without slot money ? Just asking ?

[JustRalph]

Is it possible for racing to be profitable on its own without slot money ? Just asking ?


In the largest markets, maybe. But in small markets? No way.

Small market MLB teams can't do it either.

[dilanesp]

Is it possible for racing to be profitable on its own without slot money ? Just asking ?

Yes.

1. Vacation tracks (Saratoga, Del Mar before they took on the fall season, Oaklawn) are often profitable. They make a decent amount of money on live attendance.

2. Simulcasting hubs should be able to turn a profit once contraction occurs.

Everyone not in those categories needs to go bye-bye, though. And slot money isn't helping because it is preventing needed contraction.

[aaron]

Yes.

1. Vacation tracks (Saratoga, Del Mar before they took on the fall season, Oaklawn) are often profitable. They make a decent amount of money on live attendance.

2. Simulcasting hubs should be able to turn a profit once contraction occurs.

Everyone not in those categories needs to go bye-bye, though. And slot money isn't helping because it is preventing needed contraction.

Thanks,I agree the Boutique meets can be profitable. According to your reasoning, which I am not saying is wrong, meets like Aqueduct and Belmont cannot run profitably.

[dilanesp]

Thanks,I agree the Boutique meets can be profitable. According to your reasoning, which I am not saying is wrong, meets like Aqueduct and Belmont cannot run profitably.

Depends. NYRA is a major player in simulcasting. That's a viable business model if the sport contracts and they aren't outbid for purse money by slot tracks.

[SuperPickle]

EMD, why are you linking the $500,000 fee to Kay's bonus? And is he eligible for that bonus every year? Last I see he received this bonus was 2014. He didn't get it in 2015 or 2016 that I can find.

Isn't EVERYTHING related to the bonus? Why rant on the channel as being the linchpin to this bonus (if the bonus even exists any longer)?

After stuff like this from last year:

http://www.drf.com/news/comptrollers-office-says-nyra-fails-generate-surplus-racing-operations

I doubt Kay is going to be seeing a bonus anytime soon...channel or no channel.

The irony of a guy who works in the financial sector calling out another guy's bonus as too much money and not representative of the health of the business he runs was perhaps EMD finest moment.

[EMD4ME]

EMD, why are you linking the $500,000 fee to Kay's bonus? And is he eligible for that bonus every year? Last I see he received this bonus was 2014. He didn't get it in 2015 or 2016 that I can find.

Isn't EVERYTHING related to the bonus? Why rant on the channel as being the linchpin to this bonus (if the bonus even exists any longer)?

After stuff like this from last year:

http://www.drf.com/news/comptrollers-office-says-nyra-fails-generate-surplus-racing-operations

I doubt Kay is going to be seeing a bonus anytime soon...channel or no channel.

I'm sorry you couldn't find it PA. Happens to me and the best of us.

Report of him receiving 2015 bonus in the July 25th 2016 edition of Saratogaracetrack.com

http://www.saratogaracetrack.com/horse-racing-224/2016/07/state-should-take-time-with-nyra.html


I would think that the 2016 "performance bonus :puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:" has not been decisioned yet as we are only in March....

[EMD4ME]

The irony of a guy who works in the financial sector calling out another guy's bonus as too much money and not representative of the health of the business he runs was perhaps EMD finest moment.

Irony???

Superpickle, I turned down bribes, refused to look the other way and was the most honorable, dedicated, passionate, sincere and ALWAYS CUSTOMER COMES FIRST Financial Advisor that you could ever find.

I'm dead serious, when I tell YOU, that you insulted me there and I won't take that Horse Manure from anyone.

Now, as for your point. Allow me to repeat myself. I don't care if Chris Kay makes $2,000,000 as a performance bonus.

Ever hear of the 7 deadly sins? I don't envy a soul. I hug strangers and want NOTHING in return when I do so, when people win big.

I don't envy him, so don't even THINK of going there.

I personally don't like to think that many die hards are suffering without access to racing, access to THEIR PURPOSE OF LIFE and in some cases THEIR BEST FRIEND all because MR. I want to secure my $250,000 performance bonus decides to cut a $500,000 cost line item from his company's expenditures.

He is THERE TO OPERATE a NOT FOR PROFIT organization that was BORN (yes, I know it has been amended) to successfully operate NY's 3 MAJOR THOROUGHBRED RACETRACKS FOR THE STATE AND FOR THE .....................................wait for it................................................ .........THE PUBLIC (YOU KNOW....the CLIENT) .

He is NOT THERE to sacrifice NY'S 3 MAJOR RACETRACK'S product or service SO HE CAN EEK OUT HIS undeserved bonus.

I, in my soul, KNOW YOU SEE what I'm talking about. Put your ego and experience in the industry aside, if your conscious allows you to and admit it.

I'm sick of everyone's biased bullshit on here.

How anyone can possibly call themselves a horse fan after trying to even attempt to take the "OTHER SIDE" in this one, is repulsive.

All of your biases are all over your words, faces, tone and skin. You should be ashamed of yourselves. DEAD SERIOUS.

[EMD4ME]

NO CEO of any racetrack, that actually loves this game, would ever shut out the thousands of people who are

1) Betting from a frieken nursing home
2) Homebound and bet on horses for company
3) The older folk who grew up with horses for 60 years of their lives in NYC
4) Too old to learn the internet


If it really came down to being profitable by a $1 and you need to get there and your 2 choices were:

A) Cut the NYRA channel to save $500,000

or

B) Take your bonus away


Call me insane and Mr. Pollyanna but I would cut my performance bonus if I were in his job. Swear on my mother's life. I could never sleep again if I chose A.

[SuperPickle]

Irony???

Superpickle, I turned down bribes, refused to look the other way and was the most honorable, dedicated, passionate, sincere and ALWAYS CUSTOMER COMES FIRST Financial Advisor that you could ever find.

I'm dead serious, when I tell YOU, that you insulted me there and I won't take that Horse Manure from anyone.

Now, as for your point. Allow me to repeat myself. I don't care if Chris Kay makes $2,000,000 as a performance bonus.

Ever hear of the 7 deadly sins? I don't envy a soul. I hug strangers and want NOTHING in return when I do so, when people win big.

I don't envy him, so don't even THINK of going there.

I personally don't like to think that many die hards are suffering without access to racing, access to THEIR PURPOSE OF LIFE and in some cases THEIR BEST FRIEND all because MR. I want to secure my $250,000 performance bonus decides to cut a $500,000 cost line item from his company's expenditures.

He is THERE TO OPERATE a NOT FOR PROFIT organization that was BORN (yes, I know it has been amended) to successfully operate NY's 3 MAJOR THOROUGHBRED RACETRACKS FOR THE STATE AND FOR THE .....................................wait for it................................................ .........THE PUBLIC (YOU KNOW....the CLIENT) .

He is NOT THERE to sacrifice NY'S 3 MAJOR RACETRACK'S product or service SO HE CAN EEK OUT HIS undeserved bonus.

I, in my soul, KNOW YOU SEE what I'm talking about. Put your ego and experience in the industry aside, if your conscious allows you to and admit it.

I'm sick of everyone's biased bullshit on here.

How anyone can possibly call themselves a horse fan after trying to even attempt to take the "OTHER SIDE" in this one, is repulsive.

All of your biases are all over your words, faces, tone and skin. You should be ashamed of yourselves. DEAD SERIOUS.


I'll call this one like it is. You've mentioned the CEO of NYRA and his bonus countless times including in a letter to him.

By comparison what is the bonus of the CEO of the financial services you work or last worked for?

[EMD4ME]

I'll call this one like it is. You've mentioned the CEO of NYRA and his bonus countless times including in a letter to him.

By comparison what is the bonus of the CEO of the financial services you work or last worked for?

I refuse to play "deflect". Address everything I said and then I'll gladly answer you.

[SuperPickle]

I refuse to play "deflect". Address everything I said and then I'll gladly answer you.

Again I think I have you dead to rights on this one. You've constantly complained about this guys "$250k bonus." You've also told you work at a huge financial services company.

Explain how your CEO's bonus is justified and this guy's isn't? You've made yourself the bonus police.

[NTamm1215]

Bill Carstanjen received over 8.5 million in salary last year as CEO of Churchill Downs Inc including 1.3m in bonus. All the while, Churchill Downs blocked their signal from certain ADWs and knocked down the grandstand at Calder.

But hey, who needs perspective when it comes to the disenfranchised?

[EMD4ME]

Bill Carstanjen received over 8.5 million in salary last year as CEO of Churchill Downs Inc including 1.3m in bonus. All the while, Churchill Downs blocked their signal from certain ADWs and knocked down the grandstand at Calder.

But hey, who needs perspective when it comes to the disenfranchised?

2 wrongs make a right? Another passionate opinion :rolleyes:. I know you don't care (about my opinion) but I am disappointed in you too. Especially since you're from NY.

[SuperPickle]

Bill Carstanjen received over 8.5 million in salary last year as CEO of Churchill Downs Inc including 1.3m in bonus. All the while, Churchill Downs blocked their signal from certain ADWs and knocked down the grandstand at Calder.

But hey, who needs perspective when it comes to the disenfranchised?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say EMD didn't send him an email out lining his childhood and the fact his bonus is obscene and how Churchill could have hired Jason Blewitt with that money.

[EMD4ME]

Again I think I have you dead to rights on this one. You've constantly complained about this guys "$250k bonus." You've also told you work at a huge financial services company.

Explain how your CEO's bonus is justified and this guy's isn't? You've made yourself the bonus police.

Uh No. To quote the illustrious "Whodoyoulike": I think your reading comprehension skills need some practice.

1) Again, I will gladly answer you AFTER you comment on all my points.
2) At least all of my CEO's earned their bonuses. They didn't hurt their clients viciously and then TAKE an unearned performance bonus.

I'm ashamed to even be partaking in a discussion with someone of your position. I feel dirty.

I know this will go nowhere (thanks to you, not me) , so goodbye Pickle. It's a waste of my breath interacting with you on this one.

[EMD4ME]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say EMD didn't send him an email out lining his childhood and the fact his bonus is obscene and how Churchill could have hired Jason Blewitt with that money.

I feel sorry for you man.

You actually had a chance to do something in the industry and this is the attitude you had?

No, I didn't write to him. 1) I boycotted them and they lost 98% of handle years ago. I also stuck to the boycott. 2) I don't live in Kentucky. I live in NY. I know NY racing. I lived it for 35 years. I've seen it inside out for those 35 years.

I have to stop there. It is extremely frustrating being a super fan and talking to a desensitized biased ex industry insider.

I need to go take a shower.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm sick of everyone's biased bullshit on here.

How anyone can possibly call themselves a horse fan after trying to even attempt to take the "OTHER SIDE" in this one, is repulsive.

All of your biases are all over your words, faces, tone and skin. You should be ashamed of yourselves. DEAD SERIOUS.Here's some fact.

An independent auditor was called in to tell the state what the salary should be for the next NYRA CEO before Kay was hired. They recommended something like $600K-$1.1 MILLION dollars.

Cuomo knocked it down to $300k, $300,000 BELOW the LOW END of this independent auditor's recommendation.

Your sense of entitlement here is amazing. First you want your racing channel, NO MATTER what, AND you want the CEO of NYRA to make peanuts.

Who should they get to run the joint? The guy stooping for tickets? Maybe he'll make the Cuomo low-ball number...

CEOs cost money, regardless of what you think of Kay. Forget about Kay...nobody is going to take the job (not anyone worth a damn) at the salary Cuomo hamstrung NYRA with...thus the bonus.

On another quote of yours, you're also dead wrong when you say $5,000,000 in handle from the TV station equals $500,000 in profit for NYRA. It's not even close.

[EMD4ME]

Here's some fact.

An independent auditor was called in to tell the state what the salary should be for the next NYRA CEO before Kay was hired. They recommended something like $600K-$1.1 MILLION dollars.

Cuomo knocked it down to $300k, $300,000 BELOW the LOW END of this independent auditor's recommendation.

Your sense of entitlement here is amazing. First you want your racing channel, NO MATTER what, AND you want the CEO of NYRA to make peanuts.

Who should they get to run the joint? The guy stooping for tickets? Maybe he'll make the Cuomo low-ball number...

CEOs cost money, regardless of what you think of Kay. Forget about Kay...nobody is going to take the job (not anyone worth a damn) at the salary Cuomo hamstrung NYRA with...thus the bonus.

On another quote of yours, you're also dead wrong when you say $5,000,000 in handle from the TV station equals $500,000 in profit for NYRA. It's not even close.

I want the man to make money. I have nothing against him personally. I simply disagree with his cost cutting. That is 1 thing you could not cut.

So, if 1000 people sit home, bet off telebet and watch on TV, handle $5MM (in just NYRA RACES) a year, at a blended takeout of 20%, you won't have a net profit of $500K?

That's $1MM in gross revenue. Besides the obvious cost of $500,000 for the channel and salaries of X employees (who take those X amount of calls), benefits, 401k matches, lease for where they accept the calls from etc you're telling me they still don't walk out with $500,000 in net profit?

Before you answer that.....think of the following. The 1000 people who sit at home, bet on telebet and watch on TV are 50%-75% likely to bet the OTHER tracks after the NYRA show ends AND they probably bet on off days as well.

Those same 1000 people continue to be fans/clients. They probably attend a few times a year, no?

How about the simple lost revenue from smacking those people in the face? They don't have to leave....What if they just bet less?

How much lost wagering handle will there be?

I can not even believe that someone as intelligent as you would try to have this discussion.

It seriously BOGGLES my frieken mind.

[EMD4ME]

You guys are the managers of the Chase Bank that I visit, that call me spoiled when I ask them if I can have a chase pen.


Sense of entitlement....WOW....Just wow.


I am TOTALLY NOT surprised that this industry is crashing and burning RAPIDLY.

With demeanors like this, I'm surprised it's not already dead officially. :rip:

[PaceAdvantage]

Who do you think is more objective in this debate?

The guy who desperately wants his channel back or the guy who has no access to the channel and doesn't have a vested interest in whether or not it returns?

I'm just trying to get you to think rationally for a change when it comes to this.

When you say things like "They hurt their clients viciously" you lose credibility.

Look, I don't like it that some people have lost the ability to watch the races. I think every cable channel should carry any and all local racing. But, unfortunately, that's not how the world works.

Reality has it that cable companies, at least in this instance, are charging some pretty hefty fees to have racing on their network. NYRA feels this is something their business can do without and come ahead in the end.

If they thought it was profitable to keep the channel, I guarantee you it would still be on the air.

After all, Kay's bonus is tied to performance, so why would he want to get rid of something that is contributing to performance and thus tied to his bonus?

[ReplayRandall]

You guys are the managers of the Chase Bank that I visit, that call me spoiled when I ask them if I can have a chase pen.


Sense of entitlement....WOW....Just wow.


I am TOTALLY NOT surprised that this industry is crashing and burning RAPIDLY.

With demeanors like this, I'm surprised it's not already dead officially. :rip:
You actually ask for a pen?....Now I know..:pound::rant::pound:

[SuperPickle]

Here's some fact.

An independent auditor was called in to tell the state what the salary should be for the next NYRA CEO before Kay was hired. They recommended something like $600K-$1.1 MILLION dollars.

Cuomo knocked it down to $300k, $300,000 BELOW the LOW END of this independent auditor's recommendation.

Your sense of entitlement here is amazing. First you want your racing channel, NO MATTER what, AND you want the CEO of NYRA to make peanuts.

Who should they get to run the joint? The guy stooping for tickets? Maybe he'll make the Cuomo low-ball number...

CEOs cost money, regardless of what you think of Kay. Forget about Kay...nobody is going to take the job (not anyone worth a damn) at the salary Cuomo hamstrung NYRA with...thus the bonus.

On another quote of yours, you're also dead wrong when you say $5,000,000 in handle from the TV station equals $500,000 in profit for NYRA. It's not even close.

Here's the thing with EMD...

It's the righteous indignation.

He's start multiple threads about Chris Kay. He's called him all manner of things including incompetent. Not only that he's shamed him on his bonus multiple including as the title of a thread.

I make a simple point that he's not one to talk given he works in the industry that prides itself on massive bonus and he becomes totally indignant. Like someone else has been calling Chris Kay names. And of course he won't address the issue.

So I'll wrap it up for EMD. Yes the CEO of EMD's company earned a bonus that was millions more than what Chris Kay got. No EMD didn't write him a letter criticizing the bonus. Why? Because his CEO didn't try and murder EMD's parents by eliminating the NYRA channel and firing Jason Blewitt.

Remember as long as the NYRA channel is in our hearts and our memories it lives on.

[SuperPickle]

Who do you think is more objective in this debate?

The guy who desperately wants his channel back or the guy who has no access to the channel and doesn't have a vested interest in whether or not it returns?

I'm just trying to get you to think rationally for a change when it comes to this.

When you say things like "They hurt their clients viciously" you lose credibility.

Look, I don't like it that some people have lost the ability to watch the races. I think every cable channel should carry any and all local racing. But, unfortunately, that's not how the world works.

Reality has it that cable companies, at least in this instance, are charging some pretty hefty fees to have racing on their network. NYRA feels this is something their business can do without and come ahead in the end.

If they thought it was profitable to keep the channel, I guarantee you it would still be on the air.

After all, Kay's bonus is tied to performance, so why would he want to get rid of something that is contributing to performance?

How broader issue that EMD presents himself as having deep business and financial experience but doesn't grasp budgets. Like the budget line items for television and executive compensation are tied together. Like if Kay didn't take his bonus they could pay Jason Blewitt with the money.

[Mr. Pick 5]

Here's the thing with EMD...

It's the righteous indignation.

He's start multiple threads about Chris Kay. He's called him all manner of things including incompetent. Not only that he's shamed him on his bonus multiple including as the title of a thread.

I make a simple point that he's not one to talk given he works in the industry that prides itself on massive bonus and he becomes totally indignant. Like someone else has been calling Chris Kay names. And of course he won't address the issue.

So I'll wrap it up for EMD. Yes the CEO of EMD's company earned a bonus that was millions more than what Chris Kay got. No EMD didn't write him a letter criticizing the bonus. Why? Because his CEO didn't try and murder EMD's parents by eliminating the NYRA channel and firing Jason Blewitt.

Remember as long as the NYRA channel is in our hearts and our memories it lives on.

Did EMD work for a non profit?....No, once again your points are moronic.

[PaceAdvantage]

Did EMD work for a non profit?....No, once again your points are moronic.Do CEOs of not-for-profit (a distinction from non profit) make no money? Especially non-charities like NYRA?

If there is any moronic point being made here, it's not by the likes of Mr. Pickle.

[EMD4ME]

Who do you think is more objective in this debate?

The guy who desperately wants his channel back or the guy who has no access to the channel and doesn't have a vested interest in whether or not it returns?

I'm just trying to get you to think rationally for a change when it comes to this.

PA, I can see the logic in that post. I don't blame you for it sir but you don't know me personally. I am THE guy who when his mother was found bleeding to death, was told she has a 5% chance etc. stayed calm and took a picture of her chart (where it showed that she was left unattended while she was hemorrhaging death for 5 hours). I have ice water in my veins. Spock Like.

I am able to seperate the 2.

THAT is why I am fuming. Are you the guy that gets spoken to on track week after week being asked how do I get the races? Are you the guy that listens to old people complain that they bet a ton of money ( I know as I've seen them there for 30 years) and can't anymore because their FLIP TOP phone doesn't have the internet? Are you the guy that has NYRA employees ask HIM to coach other players on how that STUPID ROKU product works?

Are you sitting here and rationally saying: You know what EMD? If NYRA turns just 2 small EMD's off, that's $2,000,000 in handle gone. That's $400,000 in NET PROFIT gone. You're right EMD, why risk 20 EMD's leaving (4,000,000) in net profit lost, all for $500,000.......

No, you're not. I don't know why but I know who the spock is in this conversation and it's me.


You're being illogical captain. The needs of the many (DIE HARD NYRA FANS IN NYC) outweigh the needs of the few.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ult9o3YC8DY


If you don't believe me, ask TLG how many tweets he received about the Channel being cut......It's all over Twitter.

[SuperPickle]

Did EMD work for a non profit?....No, once again your points are moronic.

NYRA isn't a non-profit but thanks for stumbling in here to show you have no clue about what you're talking about. Carry on.

[EMD4ME]

Do CEOs of not-for-profit (a distinction from non profit) make no money? Especially non-charities like NYRA?

If there is any moronic point being made here, it's not by the likes of Mr. Pickle.

PA, the spirit of that post was that NYRA exists for a cause and the cause is NY Horse Racing. Yes, the CEO should make money and I don't care if he makes 20,000,000 or $500,000. However, I will start to care when he cuts something that is uncuttable and gets a performance bonus. Yes, I will start to care when the best interest of the game IS NOT placed first.

What next? Are we removing the turf course and the dirt course?

[EMD4ME]

NYRA isn't a non-profit but thanks for stumbling in here to show you have no clue about what you're talking about. Carry on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Racing_Association


Restructuring[edit]
NYRA was reorganized and its franchise to operate the three racetracks was extended through 2033 under legislation approved by the New York state legislature on February 13, 2008. The new authorization provided $105 million in direct state aid and forgave millions more in state loans to NYRA. The association also gave up its claim to ownership of the land on which the three racetracks are situated. In return, the state gained expanded oversight responsibility. The state comptroller won the power to audit NYRA's books. The conversion of NYRA from a non-profit association to a not-for-profit corporation also gave the state attorney general enhanced oversight authority. In addition, the state now appoints 11 of the corporation's 25 directors. By changing from non-profit to not-for-profit status, NYRA also gained flexibility in its financial management.

[EMD4ME]

You actually ask for a pen?....Now I know..:pound::rant::pound:

They didn't HAVE them out, I needed 1 and I found it to be a turn off.

[SuperPickle]

PA, I can see the logic in that post. I don't blame you for it sir but you don't know me personally. I am THE guy who when his mother was found bleeding to death, was told she has a 5% chance etc. stayed calm and took a picture of her chart (where it showed that she was left unattended while she was hemorrhaging death for 5 hours). I have ice water in my veins. Spock Like.

I am able to seperate the 2.

THAT is why I am fuming. Are you the guy that gets spoken to on track week after week being asked how do I get the races? Are you the guy that listens to old people complain that they bet a ton of money ( I know as I've seen them there for 30 years) and can't anymore because their FLIP TOP phone doesn't have the internet? Are you the guy that has NYRA employees ask HIM to coach other players on how that STUPID ROKU product works?

Are you sitting here and rationally saying: You know what EMD? If NYRA turns just 2 small EMD's off, that's $2,000,000 in handle gone. That's $400,000 in NET PROFIT gone. You're right EMD, why risk 20 EMD's leaving (4,000,000) in net profit lost, all for $500,000.......

No, you're not. I don't know why but I know who the spock is in this conversation and it's me.


You're being illogical captain. The needs of the many (DIE HARD NYRA FANS IN NYC) outweigh the needs of the few.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ult9o3YC8DY


If you don't believe me, ask TLG how many tweets he received about the Channel being cut......It's all over Twitter.


EMD another falsity you keep stating is that you're some big customer of NYRAs. You claim you bet $2 million a year. NYRA handles around $650 million in their product combined with millions more in simulcast dollars to go over a billion dollars in handle.

So while you are a big customer compared to other customers you're significantly less than 1% of their handle. You simply don't meet any business school definition of a big customer.

You're a rounding error. If you walked away NYRA could replace your business with one more maiden claimer at Saratoga.

You don't see things in proper perspective.

[SuperPickle]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Racing_Association


Restructuring[edit]
NYRA was reorganized and its franchise to operate the three racetracks was extended through 2033 under legislation approved by the New York state legislature on February 13, 2008. The new authorization provided $105 million in direct state aid and forgave millions more in state loans to NYRA. The association also gave up its claim to ownership of the land on which the three racetracks are situated. In return, the state gained expanded oversight responsibility. The state comptroller won the power to audit NYRA's books. The conversion of NYRA from a non-profit association to a not-for-profit corporation also gave the state attorney general enhanced oversight authority. In addition, the state now appoints 11 of the corporation's 25 directors. By changing from non-profit to not-for-profit status, NYRA also gained flexibility in its financial management.

That's for confirming I'm right.

[EMD4ME]

EMD another falsity you keep stating is that you're some big customer of NYRAs. You claim you bet $2 million a year. NYRA handles around $650 million in their product combined with millions more in simulcast dollars to go over a billion dollars in handle.

So while you are a big customer compared to other customers you're significantly less than 1% of their handle. You simply don't meet any business school definition of a big customer.

You're a rounding error. If you walked away NYRA could replace your business with one more maiden claimer at Saratoga.

You don't see things in proper perspective.

When do your lies stop???? Jeez, you're worse than Dahoss man.

Actually, I take that back, Dahoss was a pleasure compared to your biased, lie filled diatribes.

I never ever said I bet $2,000,000 with NYRA. I said I bet 1 Million.

I never ever said I'm a big client. For Christ Sake, I had Replay Randall beat me up for belittling a million dollar a year player (myself) for being small.

Your agenda is repulsive. I may have disagreed with you in the past but man...at least I respected you. Now, I have no respect for you.

[PaceAdvantage]

PA, the spirit of that post was that NYRA exists for a cause and the cause is NY Horse Racing. Yes, the CEO should make money and I don't care if he makes 20,000,000 or $500,000. However, I will start to care when he cuts something that is uncuttable and gets a performance bonus. Yes, I will start to care when the best interest of the game IS NOT placed first.

What next? Are we removing the turf course and the dirt course?But it's NOT ****ING UNCUTTABLE. The vast majority of people STILL BETTING ON PHONES, while watching that TV channel, BET SHIT MONEY.

THAT'S THE HARD TRUTH.

And that's why it isn't worth it to NYRA to keep it going.

That's your hard reality that you fail to embrace.

I've already stated that it's my wish that everyone gets to watch the races in any way they want. But if wishes were that easy to come by, we'd all be wealthy.

If these people who used to rely on the channel wish to continue watching races and betting, they're going to have to find another way or cease betting.

It's called adapt or die. Horseplayers have been doing this since day one.

[EMD4ME]

But it's NOT ****ING UNCUTTABLE. The vast majority of people STILL BETTING ON PHONES, while watching that TV channel, BET SHIT MONEY.

THAT'S THE HARD TRUTH.

And that's why it isn't worth it to NYRA to keep it going.

That's your hard reality that you fail to embrace.

I've already stated that it's my wish that everyone gets to watch the races in any way they want. But if wishes were that easy to come by, we'd all be wealthy.

If these people who used to rely on the channel wish to continue watching races and betting, they're going to have to find another way or cease betting.

It's called adapt or die. Horseplayers have been doing this since day one.

Really? I hate to do it but 1) me, $1,000,000 via NYRA. I loved the TV. 2) I won't name him but a player at NYRA that I know bets just as much as me. You can ask the program manager if I'm lying. Go right ahead. 3) One of the biggest players I ever met, same thing, relies upon the channel while betting from his business office.

You're telling me that besides the 3 that I listed, which handle more than 5,000,000, there are not hundreds and probably thousands who relied upon the TV?

Answer that please.....Start there and tell me with a straight face, that it is worth risking that handle, fans lost, children who will never be shown the game from their parents (because maybe they "died as fans" as you called it) ALL FOR WHAT???

$500,000 measly thousand. Tell me with a straight face, that you think that was wise.

[classhandicapper]

I'm going to assume NYRA lost money on the network (or at least didn't earn an adequate enough ROI to justify its existence). That's why they shut it off. If that assumption is correct, it would be interesting to see how much handle they actually lost when they shut it off. It's probably extremely difficult to isolate that number given all the moving parts that impact handle, but if we had those numbers we could figure out who is right. It's certainly possible that based on the numbers they did have it made economic sense to shut it off. However, perhaps they didn't realize how much handle was tied to it and miscalculated as a result. For example, I never would have guessed that a million dollar handle guy like EMD (and others) would get so pissed off about it that they'd be willing to change ADWs. But if 2-3 guys like that jump ship and then you factor in other miscellaneous bettors the numbers start changing fast.

As a customer, it had zero impact on my handle, but I'd prefer it was still there and elaborated on that previously.

[dilanesp]

I am not going to opine on the rest of this, but NYRA's CEO should definitely not make a lot of money.The conceit behind NYRA is that it is a public trust that returns the revenues generated by New York racing back into the sport. (That isn't how it actually worked- historically it has been a kleptocracy and sinecure. But it is how it is SUPPOSED to work.)

CEO's of normal corporations make a lot of money because if they do their job well, the shareholders can make even more. NYRA's CEO should make a very modest salary consistent with the public trust model.

[Secondbest]

What's the handle since the channel closed compared to last year? Adjusted for number of racing days.

[Murph]

But it's NOT ****ING UNCUTTABLE. The vast majority of people STILL BETTING ON PHONES, while watching that TV channel, BET SHIT MONEY.

THAT'S THE HARD TRUTH.

And that's why it isn't worth it to NYRA to keep it going.

It's called adapt or die. Horseplayers have been doing this since day one.
Here we are again. The money from this segment of the population is SHIT MONEY to these NYRA folks. This seems to be the prevailing attitude on the subject.

I am with EMD 100% with his stance on the issue.

NO CEO of any racetrack, that actually loves this game, would ever shut out the thousands of people who are

1) Betting from a frieken nursing home
2) Homebound and bet on horses for company
3) The older folk who grew up with horses for 60 years of their lives in NYC
4) Too old to learn the internet


If it really came down to being profitable by a $1 and you need to get there and your 2 choices were:

A) Cut the NYRA channel to save $500,000

or

B) Take your bonus away


Call me insane and Mr. Pollyanna but I would cut my performance bonus if I were in his job. Swear on my mother's life. I could never sleep again if I chose A.

The way you outline your argument here might make a discrimination case under the Americans with Disabilites Act. This law has some teeth particularly when dealing with a non-profit who is demonstrated an action that will reduce the quality of life for a particular segment of the population.

I have no idea legally, but something like that might get some traction in New York City since state money will be involved without actually having to sue the state. Might be worth it to someone to try is all I'm saying.

The issue is certainly worth fighting for with every tool available. In fact I don't think NYRA has any right to cut this population off like they have with this little TV channel after happily taking their money all of their lives.

The bottom line on this thing seems trivial and is irrelevant. This is as good an issue as any to stand up to NYRA to say "You can't treat good citizens like this."

[EMD4ME]

Murph,

You're speaking from the heart, soul, experience , spirit and perspective of love for the game.


That is rarely understood here.

Most of these posters are negative overall OR have friends in the industry, hence are biased OR see passion and hate it as their souls are numb and are resigned to a "dead" existence. If not one of those , its misery loves company OR "it is what it is".


Thank GOD I am not one of the people who have replied to me negatively in this thread.


Seriously..... THANK GOD

[PaceAdvantage]

I am not going to opine on the rest of this, but NYRA's CEO should definitely not make a lot of money.The conceit behind NYRA is that it is a public trust that returns the revenues generated by New York racing back into the sport. (That isn't how it actually worked- historically it has been a kleptocracy and sinecure. But it is how it is SUPPOSED to work.)

CEO's of normal corporations make a lot of money because if they do their job well, the shareholders can make even more. NYRA's CEO should make a very modest salary consistent with the public trust model.Then why did an independent auditor suggest 600k to 1M?

[PaceAdvantage]

Here we are again. The money from this segment of the population is SHIT MONEY to these NYRA folks. This seems to be the prevailing attitude on the subject.It's called facing up to reality

I have no idea legally,You should have stopped right there.

[PaceAdvantage]

Most of these posters are negative overall OR have friends in the industry, hence are biasedYeah...WE'RE BIASED...whatever dude...and you're not! Incredible! :pound:

[SG4]

EMD another falsity you keep stating is that you're some big customer of NYRAs. You claim you bet $2 million a year. NYRA handles around $650 million in their product combined with millions more in simulcast dollars to go over a billion dollars in handle.

So while you are a big customer compared to other customers you're significantly less than 1% of their handle. You simply don't meet any business school definition of a big customer.

You're a rounding error. If you walked away NYRA could replace your business with one more maiden claimer at Saratoga.

You don't see things in proper perspective.

SuperPickle - I'm usually a fan of your posts, but I just have to jump in and say I thought this one was disgusting, especially if you are/were involved with track management. I know you're trying to display hardcore mathematics for a business' decision making purposes, but if you were to tell a customer that their opinions or business doesn't matter and they equate to a rounding error, that's simply rude & the beginning of a downfall for an organization. Lets say you work for a major bank who showed profit of a billion dollars last year, how safe would your job be if you told a customer with a $50 million account to go shove it? Do you think your boss would consider this unprofessional behavior OK cause the money lost on this standalone case is completely insignificant to the overall health of the company?

I'm a pretty substantial player, and I have been slighted by NYRA customer service a few times over the years. Nothing egregious enough where it was a moment where I felt the need to break off all accounts, but over the years I have found places to wager where I am treated better (both with customer service & better rebates) & NYRA's bottom line has suffered for it.

Your numbers quoted the total handle of NYRA being close to $1 billion, but haven't they shown a pretty thin profit margin, I believe they budgeted an expected profit of around $2 million last year? So isn't a player who handles $2 million (lets say at an average of 20% takeout rate) worth about $400k in profit? So wouldn't alienating 5 players of this size be the difference between being profitable & losing money? Would seem to me if this is the case then maybe these players should be regarded with some more respect. If I'm in error here in my calculations please advise.

[Murph]

You should have stopped right there. Why should I? I am only offering an opposing viewpoint.

[PaceAdvantage]

Because you admitted you have no idea...which at least is refreshing honesty

[dilanesp]

Then why did an independent auditor suggest 600k to 1M?

We don't know, but it is at least possible he or she compared it to what for profit CEO's are making, which is the wrong comparison.

[PaceAdvantage]

We don't know, but it is at least possible he or she compared it to what for profit CEO's are making, which is the wrong comparison.Or perhaps your theory of what the NYRA CEO should be making is a tad off

[dilanesp]

Or perhaps your theory of what the NYRA CEO should be making is a tad off

It is not a theory.

THE ONLY reason to have a NYRA is to run racing as a public enterprise. Otherwise it is just a sweetheart deal for insiders.

If you want a CEO who is paid private sector numbers, disband NYRA, sell to a private operator, and the CEO can make whatever the Board wants.

But as long as we have a NYRA, it should be exactly like any other government enterprise. Nobody should be getting rich, just like a DA shouldn't make the same amount that senior partners at law firms make.

[Murph]

It is not a theory.

But as long as we have a NYRA, it should be exactly like any other government enterprise.

That would include EQUAL access to their products for ALL citizens. You cannot single out a group who still uses land line phones and tube TV's because they do not bet as much as the provider would like.

This is not a difficult concept.

[Tom]

That would include EQUAL access to their products for ALL citizens. You cannot single out a group who still uses land line phones and tube TV's because they do not bet as much as the provider would like.

This is not a difficult concept.

Apparently it is.
Like it or not, they have the right to target who they want to target and ignore who they want to ignore. you are under no obligation to patronize them.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would give a crap how much the guy makes make,s what the handle is, or what the attendance is. It matters not to my betting.
All I need to know is what the odds are.

What else matters?

[elhelmete]

But as long as we have a NYRA, it should be exactly like any other government enterprise. Nobody should be getting rich, just like a DA shouldn't make the same amount that senior partners at law firms make.

It's. Not. A. Government. Entity.

[EMD4ME]

It's. Not. A. Government. Entity.

You're like that guy who has sexual relations with his 1st cousin and says:
She.not.my.sister.

They are as close to a government entity as you can come without saying it's literally the government.

Just stop....

[EMD4ME]

Apparently it is.
Like it or not, they have the right to target who they want to target and ignore who they want to ignore. you are under no obligation to patronize them.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would give a crap how much the guy makes make,s what the handle is, or what the attendance is. It matters not to my betting.
All I need to know is what the odds are.

What else matters?


Another terrible way to look at things.

I know when I was 1st falling in love with this industry, my 1 and only thought wasn't: what are the odds?

Yes, I actually don't care what he makes, as long as it doesn't interfere with the product/distribution/prices etc.

Handle and attendance do matter. I don't want to bet $1500 into a pick 6 with $14,000 in the damn pool.

I want people out at the track, as that's how FANS are born.

NYRA was an association that became a corporation that still has the same spirit behind it. To PROPERLY run horse racing in NY at the 3 major thoroughbred racetracks FOR THE GOOD of the industry and PUBLIC.

[EMD4ME]

That would include EQUAL access to their products for ALL citizens. You cannot single out a group who still uses land line phones and tube TV's because they do not bet as much as the provider would like.

This is not a difficult concept.

You're making some sense there Murph. If it's not legally wrong, it's morally wrong without a doubt.

[EMD4ME]

I am not going to opine on the rest of this, but NYRA's CEO should definitely not make a lot of money.The conceit behind NYRA is that it is a public trust that returns the revenues generated by New York racing back into the sport. (That isn't how it actually worked- historically it has been a kleptocracy and sinecure. But it is how it is SUPPOSED to work.)

CEO's of normal corporations make a lot of money because if they do their job well, the shareholders can make even more. NYRA's CEO should make a very modest salary consistent with the public trust model.

Especially when he is cutting off a large portion of the people who helped make this product even exist.

Again, that's called repulsive.

[EMD4ME]

SuperPickle - I'm usually a fan of your posts, but I just have to jump in and say I thought this one was disgusting, especially if you are/were involved with track management. I know you're trying to display hardcore mathematics for a business' decision making purposes, but if you were to tell a customer that their opinions or business doesn't matter and they equate to a rounding error, that's simply rude & the beginning of a downfall for an organization. Lets say you work for a major bank who showed profit of a billion dollars last year, how safe would your job be if you told a customer with a $50 million account to go shove it? Do you think your boss would consider this unprofessional behavior OK cause the money lost on this standalone case is completely insignificant to the overall health of the company?

I'm a pretty substantial player, and I have been slighted by NYRA customer service a few times over the years. Nothing egregious enough where it was a moment where I felt the need to break off all accounts, but over the years I have found places to wager where I am treated better (both with customer service & better rebates) & NYRA's bottom line has suffered for it.

Your numbers quoted the total handle of NYRA being close to $1 billion, but haven't they shown a pretty thin profit margin, I believe they budgeted an expected profit of around $2 million last year? So isn't a player who handles $2 million (lets say at an average of 20% takeout rate) worth about $400k in profit? So wouldn't alienating 5 players of this size be the difference between being profitable & losing money? Would seem to me if this is the case then maybe these players should be regarded with some more respect. If I'm in error here in my calculations please advise.

Finally, someone with some testicular fortitude to say it like it is, even if it means you may not be liked on here.

[elhelmete]

Especially when he is cutting off a large portion of the people who helped make this product even exist.

Again, that's called repulsive.

'large portion' :lol::lol::lol::lol:

[EMD4ME]

By the way SG4. 1 Billion is only 1000 1 million dollar a year players.

I know of 3 (including me) who total 5,000,000.

I wouldn't be comfortable knowing I just totally pissed off 1/2 of 1% of my base.

That means there are probably many more I pissed off.

But yet again, right now, these jackasses don't care. They only care about finding new market share in 30 new states.

THEY ARE NOT FOCUSING ON GROWING THE GAME. Like any other poor racetrack exec, they're only caring about today, not the long run. They only care about let's get X more market share in those 30 states, that doesn't create a single new fan. It just takes 1 fan from other ADW's.

Shortsighted and a crime if you ask me.

I wish I was in the industry and then you have poor exec's like this who are in a position to do well by the game that pays them and they always find a way to do the opposite.

PISSES ME OFF :mad:

[Tom]

I want people out at the track, as that's how FANS are born.

Then it is a good idea that they cut out the TV channel, right?

[elhelmete]

For the record, I'm not personally a fan of NY racing although I freely admit it's the best 12-month product in the country. 2nd place is pretty far behind.

NY State govt, and the machinations NYRA has gone through to navigate that swamp, and slot welfare are writing the preamble to its demise.

That does not make me happy. Not by a longshot. Go ahead EMD4ME and rant away and insult me and tilt at windmills...but you're arguing with just as ardent fan of the game as you are. And an owner, BTW.

[EMD4ME]

'large portion' :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Listen you California irrelevant knucklehead. You KNOW nothing about an NYC diehard horseplayer.

Stay in your always sunny whacko world in the west and enjoy your LA LA land.

When you spend your life at a racetrack and I mean LIFE. 40 years, 50 years of 7 days a week horseracing, maybe then you'll sniff a clue of who I am talking about.

[elhelmete]

Listen you California irrelevant knucklehead. You KNOW nothing about an NYC diehard horseplayer.

Stay in your always sunny whacko world in the west and enjoy your LA LA land.

When you spend your life at a racetrack and I mean LIFE. 40 years, 50 years of 7 days a week horseracing, maybe then you'll sniff a clue of who I am talking about.

Ad hominem time?

You know next to nothing about me, or where I grew up.

[EMD4ME]

I

Then it is a good idea that they cut out the TV channel, right?


You're kidding right Tom. Please, there's a time for jokes but this is not 1 of them.

If a couple takes their family to the track once, wouldn't it help if they had the access at home to further the love?

If someone has never been to the track, wouldn't it help IF they stumbled across a channel that had horse racing on it and say: WHAT'S THIS?

If someone works 50 hours a week 8-6, wouldn't it help if they came home and could just turn on the horse channel and make some bets.

If someone is 75 years old and has been a lifelong player AND they stop wagering because they have no more daily access, what are the odds of them ever bringing grandson EMD to the track? Near NILL.

[EMD4ME]

Ad hominem time?

You know next to nothing about me, or where I grew up.

You are correct, I don't. You said you're from Cali. I assumed and put 2 and 2 together. Am I wrong?

[Mr. Pick 5]

I

Then it is a good idea that they cut out the TV channel, right?

This logic has about the intelligence level of the baboon in your picture...

The industry needs as much exposure as possible, one of which ways used to be through the television channel. Just having the channel on tv was marketing to an extent, as it was showing the product to not only fans, but anyone with a tv remote flipping through channels. Maybe someone sees the channel starts slowly but surely following horses. A gradual progression after that may be, "Hey maybe it'd be cool to go down to the track and see what it's like live". Next thing you know, this person starts attending some live cards. This is just one example.

EDIT: If you were joking than I missed your joke totally...and didn't really find it all that funny if it was supposed to be a joke either

[Murph]

It matters not to my betting.
All I need to know is what the odds are.

What else matters? Tom, I always respect your opinion. I'm glad you added your comment because there is no argument for this statement. Pragmatic and consistent, you are absolutely correct.

This discussion is beginning to get a bit more interesting.

[Murph]

'large portion' :lol::lol::lol::lol:

It should be acknowledged that the metro NYC population who patronized Belmont and Aquaduct in the 50's, 60's and 70's are directly responsible for huge attendance numbers and nationally leading handle for most of those years. They have truly made NYRA what it is today.

It is well documented that gambling is an addictive activity. (just look inward for a moment) This generation was "hooked" on gambling with tube TV's, phone bets and a robust OTB network. It does not seem fair to me, considering the cost is less than $1 million, not to provide for them what they have made a regular and vital activity in their everyday lives.

They have done exactly what has been asked of them from this industry and have proven to be great customers demographically over decades. Now folks who are on the back end of this situation are the ones who LEAST deserve it.
They made NY Racing number one. It is NOT their fault greed and stupidity lead them to the situation they are now in.

It certainly was not SHIT MONEY while it was used to build the NYRA. These people deserve better than the ole' SHIT MONEY treatment the are getting today ... imho

[dilanesp]

It's. Not. A. Government. Entity.

It is, essentially.

Is Amtrak a government entity? Most of us here (and the US Supreme Court) would say yes. It is ostensibly a corporation, but it is set up to run the passenger trains as a public trust.

Similarly, is the Public Broadcasting System a government entity?

If you set up a company like this, but then pay the CEO a private sector salary, you are basically engaging in graft amd theft. NYRA's management gets all of the benefits of working in the private sector but assumes none of the risk of takeovers and competition.

[Secondbest]

Don't know if any body else posted this but Jason Blewitt is doing Gulfstream
With Ron Nicoletti

[elhelmete]

It is, essentially.

Is Amtrak a government entity? Most of us here (and the US Supreme Court) would say yes. It is ostensibly a corporation, but it is set up to run the passenger trains as a public trust.

Similarly, is the Public Broadcasting System a government entity?

If you set up a company like this, but then pay the CEO a private sector salary, you are basically engaging in graft amd theft. NYRA's management gets all of the benefits of working in the private sector but assumes none of the risk of takeovers and competition.

It's a not-for-profit corporation. You can wish away the differences with anecdotes but it's not 100% the same as a govt agency and the differences are very important and intentional.

I'm also sensitive to executive compensation, but stop short of making haughty proclamations like "Joe Schmoe doesn't deserve $$$$$$$." The argument in favor of higher compensation (not that I think it's always relevant or accurate) is you want to draw from the same talent pool the best companies do, and you want to retain people for the long haul. Again, I don't think that's always relevant but it's not illogical.

NYRA management has significant 'risk' of replacement. It's a franchise holder with significant rough times these past several years and operates under the greedy and tempermental eye of NY state.

[Tom]

Tom, I always respect your opinion. I'm glad you added your comment because there is no argument for this statement. Pragmatic and consistent, you are absolutely correct.

This discussion is beginning to get a bit more interesting.
Thanks, Murph.
These days, I am certainly not a target anymore.
That I can "Ensure" you. :rolleyes:

[Tom]

EDIT: If you were joking than I missed your joke totally...and didn't really find it all that funny if it was supposed to be a joke either

1. I was.
2. You did.
3. Who cares?

[EMD4ME]

It should be acknowledged that the metro NYC population who patronized Belmont and Aquaduct in the 50's, 60's and 70's are directly responsible for huge attendance numbers and nationally leading handle for most of those years. They have truly made NYRA what it is today.

It is well documented that gambling is an addictive activity. (just look inward for a moment) This generation was "hooked" on gambling with tube TV's, phone bets and a robust OTB network. It does not seem fair to me, considering the cost is less than $1 million, not to provide for them what they have made a regular and vital activity in their everyday lives.

They have done exactly what has been asked of them from this industry and have proven to be great customers demographically over decades. Now folks who are on the back end of this situation are the ones who LEAST deserve it.
They made NY Racing number one. It is NOT their fault greed and stupidity lead them to the situation they are now in.

It certainly was not SHIT MONEY while it was used to build the NYRA. These people deserve better than the ole' SHIT MONEY treatment the are getting today ... imho

Murph, you hit the NAIL SMACK on it's head.....

SHARP POST :ThmbUp:

[SuperPickle]

SuperPickle - I'm usually a fan of your posts, but I just have to jump in and say I thought this one was disgusting, especially if you are/were involved with track management. I know you're trying to display hardcore mathematics for a business' decision making purposes, but if you were to tell a customer that their opinions or business doesn't matter and they equate to a rounding error, that's simply rude & the beginning of a downfall for an organization. Lets say you work for a major bank who showed profit of a billion dollars last year, how safe would your job be if you told a customer with a $50 million account to go shove it? Do you think your boss would consider this unprofessional behavior OK cause the money lost on this standalone case is completely insignificant to the overall health of the company?

I'm a pretty substantial player, and I have been slighted by NYRA customer service a few times over the years. Nothing egregious enough where it was a moment where I felt the need to break off all accounts, but over the years I have found places to wager where I am treated better (both with customer service & better rebates) & NYRA's bottom line has suffered for it.

Your numbers quoted the total handle of NYRA being close to $1 billion, but haven't they shown a pretty thin profit margin, I believe they budgeted an expected profit of around $2 million last year? So isn't a player who handles $2 million (lets say at an average of 20% takeout rate) worth about $400k in profit? So wouldn't alienating 5 players of this size be the difference between being profitable & losing money? Would seem to me if this is the case then maybe these players should be regarded with some more respect. If I'm in error here in my calculations please advise.

So EMD loves to whip out the customer card when trashing NYRA. I wasn't trying to defend crappy customer service. I was trying to put the amount of money he wagers on perspective. Not promote the concept of crappy service.

It doesn't shock me you've had some bad experiences at NYRA. Here's a question I have for both you and EMD if customer service is important why do you bet there? Because I know enough about the sport to know NYRA will never treat you as well as an ADW. Because NYRA has to run tracks, race meets, deal with horseman jockeys and owners. It impossible for them to match the service aspect of an ADW who solely business is bettors.

So unless you're getting a great rebate why NYRA? Serious question.

[EMD4ME]

So EMD loves to whip out the customer card when trashing NYRA. I wasn't trying to defend crappy customer service. I was trying to put the amount of money he wagers on perspective. Not promote the concept of crappy service.

It doesn't shock me you've had some bad experiences at NYRA. Here's a question I have for both you and EMD if customer service is important why do you bet there? Because I know enough about the sport to know NYRA will never treat you as well as an ADW. Because NYRA has to run tracks, race meets, deal with horseman jockeys and owners. It impossible for them to match the service aspect of an ADW who solely business is bettors.

So unless you're getting a great rebate why NYRA? Serious question.

I don't know...Maybe it's because I've been living at the track for I don't know


34 FRIEKEN YEARS

Let's see what else. My mother is disabled now and it's my chance to take her out for some enjoyment. I have my own guaranteed seat in the exact seat that mom wants. I've known the gang for 4 frieken decades. I like to feed the birds at AQU etc etc etc.


Wait till tomorrow.....I have another one that you will go apeshit over. No time to post the "experience" now but I will tomorrow night.

Can't wait to get your twisted response....

[EMD4ME]

So EMD loves to whip out the customer card when trashing NYRA. I wasn't trying to defend crappy customer service. I was trying to put the amount of money he wagers on perspective. Not promote the concept of crappy service.

It doesn't shock me you've had some bad experiences at NYRA. Here's a question I have for both you and EMD if customer service is important why do you bet there? Because I know enough about the sport to know NYRA will never treat you as well as an ADW. Because NYRA has to run tracks, race meets, deal with horseman jockeys and owners. It impossible for them to match the service aspect of an ADW who solely business is bettors.

So unless you're getting a great rebate why NYRA? Serious question.

You are awesome at deflection.....

You must have some politician in you as well..... :cool:

[dilanesp]

It's a not-for-profit corporation. You can wish away the differences with anecdotes but it's not 100% the same as a govt agency and the differences are very important and intentional.

I'm also sensitive to executive compensation, but stop short of making haughty proclamations like "Joe Schmoe doesn't deserve $$$$$$$." The argument in favor of higher compensation (not that I think it's always relevant or accurate) is you want to draw from the same talent pool the best companies do, and you want to retain people for the long haul. Again, I don't think that's always relevant but it's not illogical.

NYRA management has significant 'risk' of replacement. It's a franchise holder with significant rough times these past several years and operates under the greedy and tempermental eye of NY state.

It isn't really like other nonprofits (and I don't think anyone running a nonprofit should make a big salary).

It's closer to Amtrak or PBS or the Federal Reserve Bank. It's an ostensibly private company that has been granted some valuable property by the government to run for the public benefit. And the people who run such agencies should make government money because they are running a public trust and their salaries come out of revenues that otherwise could be used to benefit the public.

(Also, the main reason they are threatened by the state so much is because they have a history of corruption. That's hardly the same as a private corporation CEO who gfears a takeover that will cost her the job.)

[PaceAdvantage]

If you want a CEO who is paid private sector numbers, disband NYRA, sell to a private operator, and the CEO can make whatever the Board wants.What CEO of a PUBLIC or PRIVATE sector company, near the size of NYRA, makes only 600k-1M? Name one. Profit or not-for-profit or non-profit...name one that makes less than $600,000 a year.

[PaceAdvantage]

But as long as we have a NYRA, it should be exactly like any other government enterprise.Except it's not a government enterprise.

[PaceAdvantage]

Listen you California irrelevant knucklehead. You KNOW nothing about an NYC diehard horseplayer.

Stay in your always sunny whacko world in the west and enjoy your LA LA land.

When you spend your life at a racetrack and I mean LIFE. 40 years, 50 years of 7 days a week horseracing, maybe then you'll sniff a clue of who I am talking about.Yeah, you're just the best EMD. The kindest most giving guy in the world. No, you never make it personal. You only go after trolls.

I guess this guy's a troll too, right EMD? I'm a troll too. Everybody's a troll who ever disagrees with EMD.

[PaceAdvantage]

Murph, you hit the NAIL SMACK on it's head.....

SHARP POST :ThmbUp:No it wasn't. It was an insanely stupid post.

You two are placing the former NYRA channel on par with food stamps and homeless shelters.

I can't stop laughing at this...:pound::pound::pound::pound::pound:

[EMD4ME]

No it wasn't. It was an insanely stupid post.

You two are placing the former NYRA channel on par with food stamps and homeless shelters.

I can't stop laughing at this...:pound::pound::pound::pound::pound:

Why are you making this "personal"? :pound:

Cheesh. You know Murphy has feelings, please respect them :)

Ok, I'll give you some time for some zzzz's :lol:. Off to nap I go.

[Murph]

No it wasn't. It was an insanely stupid post.

You two are placing the former NYRA channel on par with food stamps and homeless shelters.

I can't stop laughing at this...:pound::pound::pound::pound::pound:
Allright PA, though your comment may seem a bit harsh, it feels like this a good time for me to put the brakes on here. I responded to an off topic post and in a manner that was meant to generate an emotional response. It is not right to repeatedly contribute in taking any thread off topic.

I have no further comment here and respectfully yield to the OP with apologies.

[elhelmete]

It isn't really like other nonprofits (and I don't think anyone running a nonprofit should make a big salary).

It's closer to Amtrak or PBS or the Federal Reserve Bank. It's an ostensibly private company that has been granted some valuable property by the government to run for the public benefit. And the people who run such agencies should make government money because they are running a public trust and their salaries come out of revenues that otherwise could be used to benefit the public.

(Also, the main reason they are threatened by the state so much is because they have a history of corruption. That's hardly the same as a private corporation CEO who gfears a takeover that will cost her the job.)

A non-profit is NOT a not-for profit.

NYRA's land was taken away for slot $$. (I know that's not the official story but it's true enough here)

[PaceAdvantage]

Allright PA, though your comment may seem a bit harsh, it feels like this a good time for me to put the brakes on here. I responded to an off topic post and in a manner that was meant to generate an emotional response. It is not right to repeatedly contribute in taking any thread off topic.

I have no further comment here and respectfully yield to the OP with apologies.My "insanely stupid" comment was my way of taking EMD's "insanely stupid" comment on the removal of the NYRA TV channel and using it back at him. It wasn't necessarily meant to be harsh towards you, although obviously, that couldn't be avoided.

Do you not agree that you are placing the importance of the NYRA channel on almost the same level as desperately needed social services? That's kind of ridiculous, don't you think?

[Murph]

My "insanely stupid" comment was my way of taking EMD's "insanely stupid" comment on the removal of the NYRA TV channel and using it back at him. It wasn't necessarily meant to be harsh towards you, although obviously, that couldn't be avoided.

Do you not agree that you are placing the importance of the NYRA channel on almost the same level as desperately needed social services? That's kind of ridiculous, don't you think?I don't believe I took things quite that far. You mention entitlement programs, which are on the same level as quality of life issues. The seemingly minimal fixed cost of addressing this situation keeps my suggestion below an entitlement program. I see this as a quality of life issue for elderly people who have been long and ardent supporters of NY racing.

I am getting old fast and I have a newly found appreciation for what disabled and elderly will come to truly mean to me. It's not shit money man, but it is all we got.

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't disagree with you. I've already stated it would be ideal if the channel were still in operation so that more people have access to the product.

However, I am looking at this from a business point of view. Obviously, NYRA feels it isn't worthwhile to them from a business aspect to pay the $500,000 to keep the channel going.

NYRA is under much more scrutiny these past many years, rightfully or wrongfully depending on what you believe. So I'm sure if it turns out they are actually LOSING money by keeping the channel going, don't you think the state regulators who regularly examine NYRA's finances might be critical of keeping such a venture going? What should they do?

It sucks. I never said it didn't suck.

But you'll never convince me that NYRA shut down a money-making TV channel. I believe they had to have some way of knowing that it was a sound business decision to discontinue paying the $500,000 access fee.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'd like to make one further point to you Murph, if I could.

Take my website, PaceAdvantage.com.

It's been around for almost 17 years. People have been coming here for 17 years to shoot the shit about racing as well as a whole host of other topics.

For some people, I gather, this might be one of the very few ways available to them to talk about racing with other people. Hell, for some, it might be the only way they interact with people. Many are retired with limited options. Some might be disabled. These very people might look to this website as a very valuable social option, on whatever level you might want to view this.

Now say, hypothetically, I can't afford to run this website any longer, and I have to shut it down.

Would you be in your right to tell me I must keep this website going, despite it being a financial hardship, simply because people have come to depend on my website as their social outlet...they depend on it as a means of enjoyment to discuss racing and other topics with other like-minded people? Simply because I've offered this website to them free of charge for almost 17 years, I'm obligated to keep it going for their well being?

Because if I'm reading you correctly, that's similar to your recent argument in favor of NYRA keeping the channel going...even to the point of considering a lawsuit against NYRA for not continuing to fund the channel's existence.

[ultracapper]

I'd like to make one further point to you Murph, if I could.

Take my website, PaceAdvantage.com.

It's been around for almost 17 years. People have been coming here for 17 years to shoot the shit about racing as well as a whole host of other topics.

For some people, I gather, this might be one of the very few ways available to them to talk about racing with other people. Hell, for some, it might be the only way they interact with people. Many are retired with limited options. Some might be disabled. These very people might look to this website as a very valuable social option, on whatever level you might want to view this.

Now say, hypothetically, I can't afford to run this website any longer, and I have to shut it down.

Would you be in your right to tell me I must keep this website going, despite it being a financial hardship, simply because people have come to depend on my website as their social outlet...they depend on it as a means of enjoyment to discuss racing and other topics with other like-minded people? Simply because I've offered this website to them free of charge for almost 17 years, I'm obligated to keep it going for their well being?

Because if I'm reading you correctly, that's similar to your recent argument in favor of NYRA keeping the channel going...even to the point of considering a lawsuit against NYRA for not continuing to fund the channel's existence.

You know there are those out there that fit your description. This really is an outstanding site for so many reasons. But in no way should you be obligated to keep it running for any reason, financial or otherwise. If you wish to close it down and lie in bed the rest of your life, there should be nobody to tell you that you can't.

[Murph]

I'd like to make one further point to you Murph, if I could.

Take my website, PaceAdvantage.com.

It's been around for almost 17 years. People have been coming here for 17 years to shoot the shit about racing as well as a whole host of other topics.

For some people, I gather, this might be one of the very few ways available to them to talk about racing with other people. Hell, for some, it might be the only way they interact with people. Many are retired with limited options. Some might be disabled. These very people might look to this website as a very valuable social option, on whatever level you might want to view this.

Now say, hypothetically, I can't afford to run this website any longer, and I have to shut it down.

Would you be in your right to tell me I must keep this website going, despite it being a financial hardship, simply because people have come to depend on my website as their social outlet...they depend on it as a means of enjoyment to discuss racing and other topics with other like-minded people? Simply because I've offered this website to them free of charge for almost 17 years, I'm obligated to keep it going for their well being?

Because if I'm reading you correctly, that's similar to your recent argument in favor of NYRA keeping the channel going...even to the point of considering a lawsuit against NYRA for not continuing to fund the channel's existence.
Of course not. I do know this site is a valuable tool to many users at all levels for many reasons. You offer very liberal access for everyone to post in a forum that has as great an impact for the horserace gambling demographic than either twitter or facebook.

Many situations too often appear to force you to have to wade through alot of unnecessary crap, like repeatedly posting about thread drift or correcting trolling behavior. I REALLY do not want to be part of that problem. I know the effect that suggesting litigation has with you. Please consider that I replied in response to the "shit money" comment, and the next thing I know my keyboard feels like a gun in hand. I do not mean to offend anyone. Pure cold business vs empathy for those affected by those decisions is age old conflict.

If circumstances ever dictate that you can no longer operate Pace Advantage forums I think a part of you may even have some of the feelings you just describe to me. That is because you are a good man who cares deeply about this community. You do a fantastic job PA and I want to support your efforts here to monetize, remain in operation and keep this community vibrant going forward as long as you are willing and able.

It's not Pace Advantage without you, PA.

[dilanesp]

A non-profit is NOT a not-for profit.

NYRA's land was taken away for slot $$. (I know that's not the official story but it's true enough here)

NYRA never owned that land.

They saw they might lose their charter, fabricated a land claim, and blackmailed the state.

[dilanesp]

Except it's not a government enterprise.

It has been goven a public trust to serve a public function.

[dilanesp]

I'd like to make one further point to you Murph, if I could.

Take my website, PaceAdvantage.com.

It's been around for almost 17 years. People have been coming here for 17 years to shoot the shit about racing as well as a whole host of other topics.

For some people, I gather, this might be one of the very few ways available to them to talk about racing with other people. Hell, for some, it might be the only way they interact with people. Many are retired with limited options. Some might be disabled. These very people might look to this website as a very valuable social option, on whatever level you might want to view this.

Now say, hypothetically, I can't afford to run this website any longer, and I have to shut it down.

Would you be in your right to tell me I must keep this website going, despite it being a financial hardship, simply because people have come to depend on my website as their social outlet...they depend on it as a means of enjoyment to discuss racing and other topics with other like-minded people? Simply because I've offered this website to them free of charge for almost 17 years, I'm obligated to keep it going for their well being?

Because if I'm reading you correctly, that's similar to your recent argument in favor of NYRA keeping the channel going...even to the point of considering a lawsuit against NYRA for not continuing to fund the channel's existence.

PA, if you were granted a special state charter, exclusivity, and protection from competition, I would then say you would have an obligation.

[SG4]

Here's a question I have for both you and EMD if customer service is important why do you bet there?

Actually I don't bet through NYRA Rewards any more, unless I'm tapped out of my other ADW's, the other ADW's systems are down, or I'm on track & the internet or wi-fi service is too crappy for me to get bets in over my phone. So basically, if I am using my NYRA account nowadays it is because I am in a bad mood lol. All this being said, if they stepped their rebate % up, I'd have no problem making them my premier account again.

I was hoping you could answer the question I had for you from my first post- do you concur that NYRA is only showing profit in the vicinity of $2 million a year, so that losing just $10 million or so in handle a year would be the difference between them being in the red or black?

For a little levity break, here's an actual story about NYRA customer service from many years back - I called their telebet line & needed some help with something in my account, spoke to the rep for awhile who didn't get to the crux of my issue, I asked if I could have a supervisor's phone # to call direct, he said sure. I took down the phone #, hung up & dialed the new # I was given. It was a phone sex line.

[PaceAdvantage]

Of course not. I do know this site is a valuable tool to many users at all levels for many reasons. You offer very liberal access for everyone to post in a forum that has as great an impact for the horserace gambling demographic than either twitter or facebook.

Many situations too often appear to force you to have to wade through alot of unnecessary crap, like repeatedly posting about thread drift or correcting trolling behavior. I REALLY do not want to be part of that problem. I know the effect that suggesting litigation has with you. Please consider that I replied in response to the "shit money" comment, and the next thing I know my keyboard feels like a gun in hand. I do not mean to offend anyone. Pure cold business vs empathy for those affected by those decisions is age old conflict.

If circumstances ever dictate that you can no longer operate Pace Advantage forums I think a part of you may even have some of the feelings you just describe to me. That is because you are a good man who cares deeply about this community. You do a fantastic job PA and I want to support your efforts here to monetize, remain in operation and keep this community vibrant going forward as long as you are willing and able.

It's not Pace Advantage without you, PA.Talk about laying it on thick. :lol:

Appreciate the kind words.

[PaceAdvantage]

NYRA never owned that land.

They saw they might lose their charter, fabricated a land claim, and blackmailed the state.Where do you invent these sorts of things?

If what you said was true, that means NY State is an absolute pushover and caves readily to any myth told to them.

How does one fabricate a land claim? You mean I can just go to the state of NY, tell them I claim whatever parcel of land I wish, and they'll just say "OK sir, since you are claiming this land as yours, we're not going to contest or even check things out...we'll just accept your claim and off you go."

Just stop it already. It's hideous.

[PaceAdvantage]

PA, if you were granted a special state charter, exclusivity, and protection from competition, I would then say you would have an obligation.protection from competition? There is a casino right next door!

And in this day and age, when fewer and fewer people are attending live, and with nationwide simulcasting and ADWs, NYRA isn't really protected from the competition, are they? NY State hasn't ruled that I am not allowed to bet on any other racetrack other than NYRA tracks, have they?

[NY Racing Fan]

Where do you invent these sorts of things?

If what you said was true, that means NY State is an absolute pushover and caves readily to any myth told to them.

How does one fabricate a land claim? You mean I can just go to the state of NY, tell them I claim whatever parcel of land I wish, and they'll just say "OK sir, since you are claiming this land as yours, we're not going to contest or even check things out...we'll just accept your claim and off you go."

Just stop it already. It's hideous.

What dilanesp claimed is exactly what happened, although he is embellishing his usage of the word fabricated. It was doubtful that this land claim would hold up in court so it was used as leverage in the negotiation with the state.

[PaceAdvantage]

What dilanesp claimed is exactly what happened, although he is embellishing his usage of the word fabricated. It was doubtful that this land claim would hold up in court so it was used as leverage in the negotiation with the state.If it was so doubtful (and I'm not saying it was a slam dunk by any means), why didn't the state fight it?

Did someone at NYRA have compromising pictures of the Governor? It makes absolutely no sense. The state of NY was out for BLOOD when it came to NYRA back then....so why oh why would they allow what amounts to a frivolous claim (using yours and dilanesp's interpretation) get in the way of being able to completely dominate the proceedings?

[dilanesp]

Where do you invent these sorts of things?

If what you said was true, that means NY State is an absolute pushover and caves readily to any myth told to them.

How does one fabricate a land claim? You mean I can just go to the state of NY, tell them I claim whatever parcel of land I wish, and they'll just say "OK sir, since you are claiming this land as yours, we're not going to contest or even check things out...we'll just accept your claim and off you go."

Just stop it already. It's hideous.

PA, it was going to cost tons and take years to beat back the land claim. And the state needed immediate reforms.

But no, FYI, NYRA did not hold title to the land. There were some ambiguities in some contracts, which is what they based their claim on.

If NYRA owned the land, what did they pay for them? Who did they pay? How come there was never a deed and bill of sale?

And why did NYRA give up the claim?

[dilanesp]

If it was so doubtful (and I'm not saying it was a slam dunk by any means), why didn't the state fight it?

Did someone at NYRA have compromising pictures of the Governor? It makes absolutely no sense. The state of NY was out for BLOOD when it came to NYRA back then....so why oh why would they allow what amounts to a frivolous claim (using yours and dilanesp's interpretation) get in the way of being able to completely dominate the proceedings?

Because NYRA offered to give up the claim and make immediate reforms in exchange for staying in as operator. Whereas winning the land claim was a several year court fight.

[PaceAdvantage]

PA, it was going to cost tons and take years to beat back the land claim. And the state needed immediate reforms.Yeah, ok. If it was a total myth, it wouldn't have taken years and cost tons to prove.

And as for a state, especially NY State, needing ANYTHING immediately -- give me a break. Especially when it comes to HORSE RACING?!!??!?!

Yeah, I'm sure the public was just CLAMORING for an immediate crackdown on NYRA for all its heinous wrongdoing....:pound::pound::pound:

Don't make me laugh...half the voting public probably had never heard of NYRA...and I doubt the number of complaints pouring into the Governor's office amounted to more than than your standard suggestion box. Thus, there was no immediate ANYTHING needed, because if the Governor or any politician had waited and fought the land claim, there would have been ZERO political risk to them doing so...because the public, by and large, didn't have this on their radar...and if they did, it certainly wasn't a priority.

No, that "state needed immediate reforms" line really translated to "convenient political witch hunt" plus some casino money and whatever else was going on at the time...it's been a few years, I'm getting older, and I'm too lazy to go back and research it all...but it was far, far, FAR from the state going into emergency mode to correct an impending public crisis! :lol::lol::lol:

So much so that they gave in to a MYTH, as you put it, and placed themselves into a much weaker position then need be.

[Murph]

Talk about laying it on thick. :lol:
I don't know what else to do in this spot. I will follow your lead.

[dilanesp]

Yeah, ok. If it was a total myth, it wouldn't have taken years and cost tons to prove.

PA, I have advised clients to settle cases where I was 100 percent convinced that they were in the right, legally and factually, precisely because I knew the adversary was determined and it would have taken years and cost tons to prove.

[dilanesp]

And as for a state, especially NY State, needing ANYTHING immediately -- give me a break. Especially when it comes to HORSE RACING?!!??!?!

Yeah, I'm sure the public was just CLAMORING for an immediate crackdown on NYRA for all its heinous wrongdoing....:pound::pound::pound:

Don't make me laugh...half the voting public probably had never heard of NYRA...and I doubt the number of complaints pouring into the Governor's office amounted to more than than your standard suggestion box. Thus, there was no immediate ANYTHING needed, because if the Governor or any politician had waited and fought the land claim, there would have been ZERO political risk to them doing so...because the public, by and large, didn't have this on their radar...and if they did, it certainly wasn't a priority.

No, that "state needed immediate reforms" line really translated to "convenient political witch hunt" plus some casino money and whatever else was going on at the time...it's been a few years, I'm getting older, and I'm too lazy to go back and research it all...but it was far, far, FAR from the state going into emergency mode to correct an impending public crisis! :lol::lol::lol:

So much so that they gave in to a MYTH, as you put it, and placed themselves into a much weaker position then need be.

There were serious improprieties discovered at NYRA. That was no witch hunt. And the political system, which you say didn't care about NYRA, insisted on inserting governmental officials onto NYRA's board. That's not something politicians do if they (1) don't care about something and (2) think there is no wrongdoing.

Indeed, if the state were on a witch hunt, it would have been much better to just fight NYRA in court. Because if you do win the land claim, that's game, set, and match for NYRA. Instead, they made a deal, which is what you do when you want to get governmental officials onto the NYRA board so they can mind the store.

Absent a NYRA land claim, NYRA was going to simply lose the operator's license after the scandals, and someone else was going to be brought in. NYRA asserted the land claim and threatened the state with years of litigation unless the state played ball with NYRA. So the state took the best deal it could-- adult supervision of NYRA, plus an agreement by NYRA to give up the land claim so that if another scandal happens down the line, NYRA can be ousted.

That's just not a course of action any government takes if they are hunting witches. The state made the best deal they could in the face of NYRA blackmail.

[PaceAdvantage]

And the political system, which you say didn't care about NYRA, insisted on inserting governmental officials onto NYRA's board.I never said the political system didn't care about NYRA. They cared about NYRA a lot, although not for all the reasons you might think.

What I said was, the public at large didn't care about NYRA (if they even knew what the acronym stands for). Meaning, there was no RUSH to transform NYRA on behalf of the public, unless you think not adjusting the takeout level for a few months (although it was clearly stated correctly in the daily track program) is reason enough to throw out the baby with the bath water. Thus, the politicians COULD HAVE taken their time and fought this "MYTH" that you like to categorize the land claim as...and NOT have suffered ANY POLITICAL HARM in the court of public opinion by fighting the claim...meaning it was ZERO risk to GO FOR IT ALL, and yet they did not. They bargained with NYRA, thereby giving at least some CREDENCE to the land claim. There was ZERO reason NOT to fight NYRA on the land claim if it was indeed a MYTH as you say. That is my only point.

[dilanesp]

I never said the political system didn't care about NYRA. They cared about NYRA a lot, although not for all the reasons you might think.

What I said was, the public at large didn't care about NYRA (if they even knew what the acronym stands for). Meaning, there was no RUSH to transform NYRA on behalf of the public, unless you think not adjusting the takeout level for a few months (although it was clearly stated correctly in the daily track program) is reason enough to throw out the baby with the bath water. Thus, the politicians COULD HAVE taken their time and fought this "MYTH" that you like to categorize the land claim as...and NOT have suffered ANY POLITICAL HARM in the court of public opinion by fighting the claim...meaning it was ZERO risk to GO FOR IT ALL, and yet they did not. They bargained with NYRA, thereby giving at least some CREDENCE to the land claim. There was ZERO reason NOT to fight NYRA on the land claim if it was indeed a MYTH as you say. That is my only point.

I think the "rush" was that you had federal indictments, a bankruptcy case, and investigations that revealed serious improprieties at NYRA.

To say "well the public didn't know who NYRA was" misses the point-- these are the sorts of things that normally result in politicians taking action.

As I said above, your theory doesn't jibe with the government putting members on NYRA's board-- this is what a government does when it wants to keep a watchful eye on something or someone.

Finally, I didn't realize this before, but a court has actually held NYRA to be a state actor (i.e. a part of the government):

http://www.leagle.com/decision/In%20FDCO%2020110830877/GARCIA%20v.%20NEW%20YORK%20RACING%20ASSOCIATION,%2 0INC.

Taking into consideration both the "variety of mutual benefits" this arrangement affords NYRA and the State, and the State's obligations and responsibilities towards NYRA, the Court finds that a symbiotic relationship exists sufficient to render NYRA a state actor under § 1983.

You can thus sue NYRA under 42 USC 1983, which can only happen when the defendant is a governmental agency or agent.

The previous version of NYRA (before the deal with the state) was also repeatedly held to be a state actor:

Both federal district courts and New York state courts consistently held that the former NYRA was a state actor under § 1983. See Galvin v. New York Racing Ass'n, 70 F.Supp.2d 163, 173 (E.D.N.Y. 1998) ("The property interest in these state-issued licenses cannot be infringed by a state body, including the NYRA, without affording due process of law."); Stevens, 665 F. Supp. at 172; Alvarez, 2006 WL 2023002, at *3 (adopting reasoning of the court in Stevens and finding the former NYRA to be a state actor); Saumell v. New York Racing Ass'n, 58 N.Y.2d 231, 237 (N.Y. 1983) ("NYRA concedes for the purposes of this proceeding that its exclusion of petitioner constitutes `State action.'"); Halpern v. Lomenzo, 367 N.Y.S.2d 653 (N.Y. Sup. Ct. 1975) ("The State has so far insinuated itself into a position of interdependence with [NYRA] . . . that it must be recognized as a joint participant in the challenged activity, which, on that account, cannot be considered to have been so purely private as to fall without the scope of the Fourteenth Amendment.") (quoting Burton, 365 U.S. at 725).