Autonomous vehicles

[highnote]

When you drive a car and come to an intersection such as a 4 way stop, you can often make eye contact with the other drivers and, through common courtesy, you can decide who should go first. It doesn't always work, but most of the time it does.

If you're driving a car and you meet up with an autonomous vehicle, can you trust that it will not pull out in front of you, or can you be more aggressive and always beat the self-driving car through the intersection?

[johnhannibalsmith]

Just run into it and put another dent in the mad race to make driving even worse.

[tucker6]

Just run into it and put another dent in the mad race to make driving even worse.

No. Let it hit you and then sue the manufacturer into submission. The old American way. I see this not ending well.

[highnote]

No. Let it hit you and then sue the manufacturer into submission. The old American way. I see this not ending well.

What happens if the self-driving car has to choose between hitting me or the pedestrian crossing the street?

What are the risks of different cars using different software packages?

[PhantomOnTour]

Scares the crap out of me.
Showing my age here, but I can't ever see myself being a passenger in a car that's hauling ass down the boulevard, driven by nobody.

[tucker6]

There is a reason plane auto pilots are turned off on takeoffs and landings. The human eyes and minds are still better than a computer.

[highnote]

There is a reason plane auto pilots are turned off on takeoffs and landings. The human eyes and minds are still better than a computer.

I have heard or read that jumbo jets can land themselves. Is that true?

[highnote]

How would you write software to handle this scenario:

Autonomous car "A" is driving on a two lane road with two passengers.

Autonomous car "B" is driving in the opposite direction with four passengers.

Three pedestrians are crossing the road and are in the middle of the lane of car "A".

Should car "A" continue toward the 3 pedestrians where it is almost certain to hit them and kill them, but car "A" will avoid a head-on collision of car "B with four passengers?

or

Should car "A" avoid the 3 pedestrians and collide with car "B" and risk killing all four passengers in car "B" as well as both passengers in car "A"?

[johnhannibalsmith]

Tell me who is in the car and a little about each of the pedestrians and I'll tell what I'd want it to do.

[tucker6]

I have heard or read that jumbo jets can land themselves. Is that true?
Yes, but they (airline and manufacturer) don't allow it.

[highnote]

Tell me who is in the car and a little about each of the pedestrians and I'll tell what I'd want it to do.

You can come up with any scenario. Take a "god" view and assume they are all people of equal worth.

Let's look at it three ways. Imagine you are driving or walking somewhere near your home.

Let's say you and a family member are passengers in the two passenger car, other family members are driving toward you in the four passenger car, and your family members are crossing the road.

Put yourself in either vehicle or as a passenger.

This is a real world scenario that has to be decided by software.

What decision do you want the software to make assuming that car "A" cannot avoid a collision with either the other car or the pedestrian. One or more people will die. Who is it going to be?

Do you want software to make the decision?

[johnhannibalsmith]

...

Do you want software to make the decision?

I'm the one who encouraged you to play Dukes of Hazzard with the thing and shove it off the mountain into a ravine.

[Greyfox]

Will self-driving cars be allowed to take drunks home from bars?:rolleyes:

[OntheRail]

How would you write software to handle this scenario:

Autonomous car "A" is driving on a two lane road with two passengers.

Autonomous car "B" is driving in the opposite direction with four passengers.

Three pedestrians are crossing the road and are in the middle of the lane of car "A".

Should car "A" continue toward the 3 pedestrians where it is almost certain to hit them and kill them, but car "A" will avoid a head-on collision of car "B with four passengers?

or

Should car "A" avoid the 3 pedestrians and collide with car "B" and risk killing all four passengers in car "B" as well as both passengers in car "A"?


Default... reaction hit ditch deploy airbags auto send all view video to facebook... dial autonomous wrecker to haul to recycle center.

[highnote]

Default... reaction hit ditch deploy airbags auto send all view video to facebook... dial autonomous wrecker to haul to recycle center.

There is no ditch to hit. There are jersey barriers on both sides of the road.

Only choice is to hit the pedestrians or hit the oncoming vehicle.

[tucker6]

There is no ditch to hit. There are jersey barriers on both sides of the road.

Only choice is to hit the pedestrians or hit the oncoming vehicle.

So are we to assume this automated driver will know all traffic laws and tort/insurance variables and make the best financial outcome decision for his passenger? If pedestrians are not in crosswalk, maybe hit them and plead they were the original law breakers in court. Like I said earlier, lots of worms in this can

[highnote]

So are we to assume this automated driver will know all traffic laws and tort/insurance variables and make the best financial outcome decision for his passenger? If pedestrians are not in crosswalk, maybe hit them and plead they were the original law breakers in court. Like I said earlier, lots of worms in this can

Someday drones will deliver packages from the sky and robots will deliver packages from an autonomous delivery vehicle and autonomous vehicles will drive humans everywhere.

Think of all the jobs that will be replaced -- probably a lot more than the advent of automobiles and phase-out of horses and buggies.

Fleets of autonomous vehicles will probably be owned by big companies. There won't be a need for taxi drivers. Companies like Lyft and Uber won't need drivers. There will be less of a need for auto insurance, mechanics, loan officers, technicians to change tires and oil.

I see a lot of benefits. Delivery drivers won't speed to make a delivery. They won't get careless or be distracted.

There might even be less crime because there will be cameras everywhere. All the robots, drones, and autonomous vehicles will have cameras that will be recording and/or streaming images locally or back to a server.

If people lose their jobs, how will they pay for a ride in a driverless car or have enough money to buy something that needs to be delivered?

Where will the new jobs come from?

Maybe everyone will get paid to create new filters for their snapchats?:rolleyes::D

[OntheRail]

There is no ditch to hit. There are jersey barriers on both sides of the road.

Only choice is to hit the pedestrians or hit the oncoming vehicle.

Three pedestrians are crossing the road and are in the middle of the lane of car "A"

Ah the ever changing parameters.... If in fact it is a tunnel lane... the forward scanning sensors would alert the on board system to either apply horn and voice recording tell the Liberal A**holes to get the *uck out of the road.. then hit gas or brakes as needed. (why do I say Liberal AH... who else would jump a Jersey Barrier to play in traffic... other then LAH's. we've seen them do it...) :pound:


All this may come to pass... sometime in the future.... beyond yours and my time. How many delivery trucks will be jacked by wifi bandits and a Nintendo Wee. :coffee:

[highnote]

Ah the ever changing parameters....

The parameters only changed because you added a ditch.

If I would have wanted a ditch in my hypothetical I would have added it. :D


All this may come to pass... sometime in the future.... beyond yours and my time. How many delivery trucks will be jacked by wifi bandits and a Nintendo Wee. :coffee:

That's a good point, too, about getting them hacked or someone with a device to send out false radar signals.


Or what about projecting a hologram into the road that the cameras might pick up?

[Actor]

When you drive a car and come to an intersection such as a 4 way stop, you can often make eye contact with the other drivers and, through common courtesy, you can decide who should go first. It doesn't always work, but most of the time it does.

If you're driving a car and you meet up with an autonomous vehicle, can you trust that it will not pull out in front of you, or can you be more aggressive and always beat the self-driving car through the intersection?The rule is "yield to the vehicle on the right." Eye contact has nothing to do with it.

[Actor]

Will self-driving cars be allowed to take drunks home from bars?:rolleyes:Will self-driving cars be able to tell that the guy behind the wheel is drunk and decide to take over?

[Actor]

Where will the new jobs come from?They won't come from anywhere.

As robots replace workers expenses decrease and profits rise. As workers are laid off fewer citizens can afford product, consumption decreases and profits fall. When the two lines cross capitalism as we know it end. Some form of welfare state is inevitable.

[highnote]

The rule is "yield to the vehicle on the right." Eye contact has nothing to do with it.

There is a four way stop sign not far from my house. Not everyone follows the yield to the car on the right rule.

Oftentimes four cars arrive simultaneously. If all four cars yielded to the car on the right none of the cars would ever move. Or they would all move at the same time and there would be a four car crash.

[rastajenk]

Eye contact has everything to do with it. Acknowledgment, awareness, the other person-isn't-looking-at-his-f***ing-phone-ness of it...it's the supreme act of civil behavior. A point, a nod, flash of lights are simple ways of saying, you go (trust me). You shouldn't have to rely on the law in such a common situation, actor, but you're one of them lib types, so maybe such courtesies are alien territory to you. :p

[cj]

You can come up with any scenario. Take a "god" view and assume they are all people of equal worth.

Let's look at it three ways. Imagine you are driving or walking somewhere near your home.

Let's say you and a family member are passengers in the two passenger car, other family members are driving toward you in the four passenger car, and your family members are crossing the road.

Put yourself in either vehicle or as a passenger.

This is a real world scenario that has to be decided by software.

What decision do you want the software to make assuming that car "A" cannot avoid a collision with either the other car or the pedestrian. One or more people will die. Who is it going to be?

Do you want software to make the decision?

Sounds like a script. I might work on it and call it "I, Robot".

[highnote]

Sounds like a script. I might work on it and call it "I, Robot".

It sounds like a better script than actual movie titled "i, ROBOT":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I,_Robot_(film)

That movie plot seems too far fetched for my liking.

However, there are elements of the movie that shed light on that the situations the programmers of software for a contemporary self-driving car must consider.

When faced with a situation like the one described in this thread the car's software will react according to the software that controls it. Just because the car is programmed to take a certain action does not mean it took the optimal action.

Who is to decide what is optimal?

What if all people do not agree on what is optimal in a given situation?

[OntheRail]

Highnote.. you are agonizing over this for no reason... Trump is cutting waste from the Federal Budget. I don't think Trump will approve funding of the needed sensors placed into the Highway system. So there you go... worry not. ;)

[highnote]

Highnote.. you are agonizing over this for no reason... Trump is cutting waste from the Federal Budget. I don't think Trump will approve funding of the needed sensors placed into the Highway system. So there you go... worry not. ;)

What? Me worry?

http://www.specialcabledeals.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/MadTV12.jpg

Why would special sensors be needed? They're not using them in tests right now?

[highnote]

Will self-driving cars be allowed to take drunks home from bars?:rolleyes:

Better yet... let self-driving cars take drunks to and from the bar! :D

[OntheRail]

What? Me worry?

http://www.specialcabledeals.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/MadTV12.jpg

Why would special sensors be needed? They're not using them in tests right now?


Driverless Cars Need Just One Thing: Futuristic Roads
https://www.mercatus.org/commentary/driverless-cars-need-just-one-thing-futuristic-roads

[JustRalph]

In five years they will be pretty damn good. I would ride in one. Imagine "recovering" your commute?

There are people here in Houston who commute 1.5-2 hours every day. I call them fools.

If you could actually work in your car during the commute it would change everything

[highnote]

In five years they will be pretty damn good. I would ride in one. Imagine "recovering" your commute?

There are people here in Houston who commute 1.5-2 hours every day. I call them fools.

If you could actually work in your car during the commute it would change everything

If they get all the bugs ironed out it would definitely boost productivity.

Still don't know why road sensors would be necessary. Self-driving cars are being tested without sensors on the road now.

As the technology improves it will also come down in price.

I'm not sure at some sort of radar that can see around a turn will ever be invented. Maybe sensors will only be needed in difficult to navigate areas?

Maybe temporary sensors will be set up in construction areas.

Most of the problems can be overcome through engineering. The tricky ones are the ones Donald Rumseld mentioned:

"... as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones."

[OntheRail]

I'm not sure at some sort of radar that can see around a turn will ever be invented. Maybe sensors will only be needed in difficult to navigate areas?
"

Go read the link from previous page...

[highnote]

Go read the link from previous page...

I read it quickly, but can't remember all of it. The gist of it seemed to be that sensors in rural areas might be easier because there are less right of ways to deal with.

Also, 5G should help.

[tucker6]

I read it quickly, but can't remember all of it. The gist of it seemed to be that sensors in rural areas might be easier because there are less right of ways to deal with.

Also, 5G should help.

OR signs saying slow down, blind child at play. How would a computer know?

[Fager Fan]

There is a four way stop sign not far from my house. Not everyone follows the yield to the car on the right rule.

Oftentimes four cars arrive simultaneously. If all four cars yielded to the car on the right none of the cars would ever move. Or they would all move at the same time and there would be a four car crash.

Lol. True. It's not yield to the car on the right anyway. It's who got there first. Then go in turn.

[Fager Fan]

I'd say the answer is do away with all 4 or multiple way stops. Either put in lights or make them roundabouts. Problem solved.

I'd say that bikers and walkers would just need to know that the same truism now will be true then - the car is bigger than you and will hurt your ass, so beware.

[Jeff P]

OR signs saying slow down, blind child at play. How would a computer know?
Image recognition software. (TDA)


-jp

.

[PhantomOnTour]

I'd say the answer is do away with all 4 or multiple way stops. Either put in lights or make them roundabouts. Problem solved.

I'd say that bikers and walkers would just need to know that the same truism now will be true then - the car is bigger than you and will hurt your ass, so beware.

The roundabout experiment here in Cajunland has been a bit of a failure. We have around 4-5 of them and I would say about 10% of the brilliant locals actually know how they work.
Most treat it like a four way stop, which they don't know how to use either...they stop and then they go, period.
The concept of the right of way belonging to those in the roundabout hasn't reached them yet. Heck, the whole "right of way" concept down here is totally backwards. Everyone is so intent on being nice that they yield when they have the right of way, which causes more problems than if they would just go.

[tucker6]

Image recognition software. (TDA)


-jp

.

would you bet your life on it?

[Fager Fan]

The roundabout experiment here in Cajunland has been a bit of a failure. We have around 4-5 of them and I would say about 10% of the brilliant locals actually know how they work.
Most treat it like a four way stop, which they don't know how to use either...they stop and then they go, period.
The concept of the right of way belonging to those in the roundabout hasn't reached them yet. Heck, the whole "right of way" concept down here is totally backwards. Everyone is so intent on being nice that they yield when they have the right of way, which causes more problems than if they would just go.

That made me laugh. My first experience with roundabouts was in England/Scotland 30 years ago, and they're fabulous. As long as people understand them. They don't seem that difficult to understand.

[highnote]

Heck, the whole "right of way" concept down here is totally backwards. Everyone is so intent on being nice that they yield when they have the right of way, which causes more problems than if they would just go.

When I first moved to the NYC metro area from the rural Midwest, it took me about 2 weeks to figure out that there is a reason no one is "nice". Being nice just pisses everyone else off because being nice slows down the whole system.

No one expects you to be nice. People on the East Coast are not mean. They are efficient. People from the Midwest might interpret that as being mean, but that is wrong. East coast drivers accept that you might be a little delayed by having to wait your turn or wait for a break in the traffic to make your move. Being nice causes a bottleneck and that is unacceptable.

[Jeff P]

would you bet your life on it?

Funny you should ask that.

Is that technology sufficient at the present time?

In most cases I'd tend to say yes.

But in some cases my answer would be hell no. At least not until such time as the technology is vastly improved.

Using technology that is currently available as I type this:

On a clear sunny day - with no obstructions whatsoever between cameras and roadside signs - computers programmed with TDA based image recognition software should be able to very quickly identify objects such as stop signs, yield signs, or speed limit signs with near 100% accuracy.

The software is able to do that based on shapes and colors. Or more specifically after having analyzed the coloring and locations of pixels in the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of images it has been fed during training sessions.

In the case of a stop sign the software should be able to discern the octagonal shape and the red coloring into meaning: That's a stop sign.

In the case of a speed limit sign the software should be able to recognize the shapes and coloring of the individual numbers and letters on the sign and translate those into a speed limit.

But what if some idiot does something stupid?

For example - hangs a beach towel over top of a stop sign?

Suddenly the shape is only octagonal on one side - with something the software hasn't been programmed to recognize flapping around in the breeze on the other side.

It's that "what if some idiot does something stupid" category that concerns me.

Most of us could probably think up a 1000 different ways someone could do something stupid to trip up the system.


-jp

.

[highnote]

Most of us could probably think up a 1000 different ways someone could do something stupid to trip up the system.


-jp

.

Reminds me of the scene in "Body Heat" where Mickey Rourke says to William Hurt something to the effect of, "When you commit a crime, 50 things can go wrong. If you can think of 25 of them, you're a genius."

[Jeff P]

Absolutely.


-jp

.

[johnhannibalsmith]

The roundabout experiment here in Cajunland has been a bit of a failure. We have around 4-5 of them and I would say about 10% of the brilliant locals actually know how they work.
Most treat it like a four way stop, which they don't know how to use either...they stop and then they go, period.
The concept of the right of way belonging to those in the roundabout hasn't reached them yet. Heck, the whole "right of way" concept down here is totally backwards. Everyone is so intent on being nice that they yield when they have the right of way, which causes more problems than if they would just go.

It's pretty comical out here in Arizona where they've tried to integrate them as well. People hate them and have no idea what to do with them. We had them bask east in the middle of highway speed roads and you got run over if you slowed more than a few miles an hour at the merge. I can remember getting my first lesson in driving the Latham Circle: "the key, is to never get going slower than seventy."

[JustRalph]

http://www.theverge.com/2017/3/6/14832354/volkswagen-sedric-self-driving-van-concept-mobility

Check this out

[OntheRail]

From the Vault 7 leak.

As of October 2014 the CIA was also looking at infecting the vehicle control systems used by modern cars and trucks. The purpose of such control is not specified, but it would permit the CIA to engage in nearly undetectable assassinations.

That is exactly why I hate drive by wire...it is hackable. Give me linkage and leverage to steer, brake and accelerate with.

And some people want to turn it over to I-ride Robots.

[Actor]

Image recognition software. (TDA)


-jp

.
would you bet your life on it?One guy did. Last May he set his cruise control at 74 mph, turned on his Tesla's autopilot and went to sleep. The car did not recognize a truck crossing the road and hit it full speed killing the car's driver.

[PhantomOnTour]

When I first moved to the NYC metro area from the rural Midwest, it took me about 2 weeks to figure out that there is a reason no one is "nice". Being nice just pisses everyone else off because being nice slows down the whole system.

No one expects you to be nice. People on the East Coast are not mean. They are efficient. People from the Midwest might interpret that as being mean, but that is wrong. East coast drivers accept that you might be a little delayed by having to wait your turn or wait for a break in the traffic to make your move. Being nice causes a bottleneck and that is unacceptable.

Gospel, this ^^

[Actor]

Lol. True. It's not yield to the car on the right anyway. It's who got there first. Then go in turn."Yield to the car on the right" is a "same time" rule.

[Actor]

OR signs saying slow down, blind child at play. How would a computer know?Artificial vision. It's in the works.

[Actor]

What the auto industry is working on is a truly autonomous vehicle, one that will not need special highways. It's an exercise in artificial intelligence. The vehicle will be able to see the road, signs, the entire environment and act accordingly.

The ultimate will be when you trust the car enough to put the kids in the back seat and have it take them to school without anyone behind the wheel.

[tucker6]

What the auto industry is working on is a truly autonomous vehicle, one that will not need special highways. It's an exercise in artificial intelligence. The vehicle will be able to see the road, signs, the entire environment and act accordingly.

The ultimate will be when you trust the car enough to put the kids in the back seat and have it take them to school without anyone behind the wheel.
what happens when that AI has a glitch due to a solar glare or some other interference, or simply due to a malfunction? Since nothing is 100% reliable, problems are inherent.

[johnhannibalsmith]

what happens when that AI has a glitch due to a solar glare or some other interference, or simply due to a malfunction? Since nothing is 100% reliable, problems are inherent.

Same thing that happens in the pizza place when a computer goes down now. The world starves rather than someone locating a pen and piece of paper.

[Actor]

what happens when that AI has a glitch due to a solar glare or some other interference, or simply due to a malfunction? Since nothing is 100% reliable, problems are inherent.True. But humans are also not 100% reliable. The claim (or hope) is that the robot driver will make fewer mistakes than a human with a net saving of lives in the long run. We'll see.

[tucker6]

Oops...


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/25/business/uber-suspends-tests-of-self-driving-vehicles-after-arizona-crash.html?_r=0

[PaceAdvantage]

Wonder what the insurance rates are on these autonomous vehicles....

[tucker6]

Wonder what the insurance rates are on these autonomous vehicles....

I guess the first question is why do people even need to have a self driving car? Is it too difficult to drive normally? I know geriatric and handicapped people may need such a car, but what about the other 90%? Seems like the market is smaller than the cost/benefit analysis needs it to be.

My gut tells me that as these cars advance toward being a commonplace occurrence on the road, states will more and more put stringent rules/laws in place to make it prohibitive to own one. Insurance rates will follow as well.

Edit to add that the contraption on the roof probably makes the vehicle top heavy, and thus why it turned onto its side. A wreck in an intersection rarely flips a car, so will be interesting to understand that dynamic as well.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm curious as to the here and now...these cars ARE on the road today, and thus require insurance if they are on the road...my question is, how do the insurance companies see these vehicles in terms of risk, and thus, my question as to the rates that are currently being charged.

[therussmeister]

I'm curious as to the here and now...these cars ARE on the road today, and thus require insurance if they are on the road...my question is, how do the insurance companies see these vehicles in terms of risk, and thus, my question as to the rates that are currently being charged.

From what I've read so far these vehicles have a much lower accident rate than human drivers, and the vast majority of crashes were caused by the other human driven vehicles. However I can see the possibility of juries awarding a much higher award to those injured by an autonomous vehicle.

As for the earlier discussion about the ability to read signs, eventually all road signs will be cataloged in the vehicles database. I don't know if they still do this but in the early days I've read that all debris in the roadway was in the database with each car giving an immediate update when it encountered something new.

[davew]

Domino's is going to start experiments with delivery's. I would rather walk into one of those things than have an AMAZON package fall from the sky on me.

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/robots-finally-themselves-useful-deliver-221225193.html

[davew]

autonomous mode runs into a parked police car :eek:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5784431/Tesla-Autopilot-mode-crashes-California-police-car.html

[Tom]

autonomous mode runs into a parked police car :eek:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5784431/Tesla-Autopilot-mode-crashes-California-police-car.html

:pound::pound::pound:

Technology!

If a car runs into a cop car and no one is driving it, who gets the ticket?

Would have been bad if the cops opened fire on the car and later said they saw a gun!

[barahona44]

:pound::pound::pound:

Technology!

If a car runs into a cop car and no one is driving it, who gets the ticket?

Would have been bad if the cops opened fire on the car and later said they saw a gun!
Or if the car was painted black. :)

[MONEY]

Someone crashed into my parked car and left the scene yesterday, while I was shopping.

I wonder Tesla had anything to do with it.

[FakeNameChanged]

https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/5/18126103/waymo-one-self-driving-taxi-service-ride-safety-alphabet-cost-app

Waymo, which is a subsidiary of Alphabet has started their fully automatic ride sharing in the Phoenix area. Video shows people riding in one of their cars. I watched a report today on autopiloted tractor trailers which will be here in the next five years if not sooner.