Transgender wrestler wins state title

[Inner Dirt]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/highschools/meet-the-texas-wrestler-who-won-a-girls-state-title-his-name-is-mack/2017/02/25/982bd61c-fb6f-11e6-be05-1a3817ac21a5_story.html?utm_term=.17b2534f3553

I would love to see someone defend this. Allowing a girl to compete taking male hormones, how is this fair to the other girls, and also how is it not cheating?

[MONEY]

Doping is now legal in Texas girls sports, it's only a matter of time before doping becomes legal for all.

[PaceAdvantage]

The world is nuts...somehow this will be seen as Trump's fault I guess...

How is this not a doping scandal? If the former SHE wants to now be a HE, let HIM wrestle the BOYS...no brainer...

[PhantomOnTour]

The world is nuts...somehow this will be seen as Trump's fault I guess...

How is this not a doping scandal? If the former SHE wants to now be a HE, let HIM wrestle the BOYS...no brainer...

You got me Pace...I was just typing an angry rant about how Trump caused this all
:rolleyes:

[PaceAdvantage]

You got me Pace...I was just typing an angry rant about how Trump caused this all
:rolleyes:It was a joke...lighten up

[johnhannibalsmith]

The world is nuts...somehow this will be seen as Trump's fault I guess...

How is this not a doping scandal? If the former SHE wants to now be a HE, let HIM wrestle the BOYS...no brainer...


I didn't read the story attached here but read another one and the state regulations require that athletes compete in accordance with the gender on their birth certificate. Another really logical sounding rule.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

The world is nuts...somehow this will be seen as Trump's fault I guess...

How is this not a doping scandal? If the former SHE wants to now be a HE, let HIM wrestle the BOYS...no brainer...

I saw the story yesterday. As I understood it

(1) Texas rules allow hormone therapy for kids in transition. Not that it is comparable, but I've pointed out the MLB, for example, allows hormone therapy for players that have been diagnosed with low-T. Most famously, A-Rod was legally taking testosterone (in addition to whatever else)

(2) He wanted to wrestle in the male bracket, but according to Texas rules

(3) Wrestlers have to enter in the sex listed on their birth certificate.

The whole transgender issue is rife with complications, this being one of them. I don't have an answer, I'm just not blaming the kid for thinking he was a girl trapped in a male body or the rules Texas has.

[garyscpa]

Where is Andy Kaufman when you need him?

[Inner Dirt]

I saw the story yesterday. As I understood it

(1) Texas rules allow hormone therapy for kids in transition. Not that it is comparable, but I've pointed out the MLB, for example, allows hormone therapy for players that have been diagnosed with low-T. Most famously, A-Rod was legally taking testosterone (in addition to whatever else)

(2) He wanted to wrestle in the male bracket, but according to Texas rules

(3) Wrestlers have to enter in the sex listed on their birth certificate.

The whole transgender issue is rife with complications, this being one of them. I don't have an answer, I'm just not blaming the kid for thinking he was a girl trapped in a male body or the rules Texas has.

Agree or not that it gives her an unfair advantage? Do you believe it fair that she is allowed to compete against females when she has medically changed her body to be masculine? You don't look like that from proper nutrition and weight training if you are a woman. I am sure you are aware that females cannot build muscles to the extent men can unless they take male hormones, steroids or similar substances that regulated athletic competitions do not allow.

If Texas allows this do they allow athletes to use steroids? It produces the same result.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Where is Andy Kaufman when you need him?

Still indefeatable.

1uQlB99WCuk

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Agree or not that it gives her an unfair advantage? Do you believe it fair that she is allowed to compete against females when she has medically changed her body to be masculine? You don't look like that from proper nutrition and weight training if you are a woman. I am sure you are aware that females cannot build muscles to the extent men can unless they take male hormones, steroids or similar substances that regulated athletic competitions do not allow.

If Texas allows this do they allow athletes to use steroids? It produces the same result.

Taking testosterone is taking steroids, and that is what she is taking to transition. As I said, allowing kids in transition to take it was a Texas rule.

I really don't think the issue is whether he has an advantage. It is the inconsistency of the Texas rules. How do you agree that taking steroids is allowable, but then turn around and say he can only wrestle girls?

The Olympic guideline is that any transgender female to male is allowed to compete without restriction, and they don't have to have undergone reassignment surgery. That makes sense to me. I'm not sure why Texas has resisted changing the rule, but as I said I can't put any of the blame on the kid. He's doing what the rules require him to do, even if it is obviously unfair. Texas needs to adapt to current scientific, social and legal attitudes on transgender issues.

[Marshall Bennett]

How would this not prevent some 6'3" 230 lb. she/male from competing in girls high school basketball? Talk about a dominating force. :bang:

[HalvOnHorseracing]

How would this not prevent some 6'3" 230 lb. she/male from competing in girls high school basketball? Talk about a dominating force. :bang:

Read my lips.

CHANGE THE F**KING RULE

[Jess Hawsen Arown]

Do you remember Richard Raskind? No. You may know him better as Renee Richards. A mediocre men's tennis pro who became a monster in women's tennis after a medical rearrangement of his genitalia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards

Following Richards' disclosure of her gender reassignment, the United States Tennis Association (USTA), the Women's Tennis Association (WTA), and the United States Open Committee (USOC) required all women competitors to verify gender with a Barr body test of their chromosomes. Richards applied to play in the US Open in 1976 as a woman but refused to take the test, and thus was not allowed to compete in the U.S. Open, Wimbledon, or the Italian Open in the summer of 1976.

Richards then sued the USTA in New York state court, alleging discrimination by gender in violation of the New York Human Rights Law.She asserted that participating in the tournament would constitute "an acceptance of her right to be a woman." Some USTA members felt that others would undergo sex change to enter women's tennis.Sports Illustrated called Richards an "extraordinary spectacle", and characterized reactions to her as "varying from astonishment to suspicion, sympathy, resentment, and more often than not, utter confusion." The USOC stated "there is competitive advantage for a male who has undergone a sex change surgery as a result of physical training and development as a male." Richards finally agreed to take the Barr body test. The test results were ambiguous. She refused to take it again and therefore was barred from play.

On August 16, 1977, Judge Alfred M. Ascione found in Richards' favor. He ruled: "This person is now a female" and that requiring Richards to pass the Barr body test was "grossly unfair, discriminatory and inequitable, and a violation of her rights." He further ruled that the USTA intentionally discriminated against Richards, and granted Richards an injunction against the USTA and the USOC, allowing her to play in the US Open. Richards lost to Virginia Wade in the first round of the singles competition, but made it to the finals in doubles.]

[rastajenk]

I think the logical out would be to say to confused kids with athletic skills, save the transitioning for later, and compete with your birth gender. Or go with the transitioning and give up the competition. Instead, we have to invest the resources of athletic organizations and the high emotions of everyone else involved into the personal satisfaction of one individual who has to have it his/her way. Totally selfish, and the enablers in this situation are just about as bad.

[LottaKash]

IInstead, we have to invest the resources of athletic organizations and the high emotions of everyone else involved into the personal satisfaction of one individual who has to have it his/her way. Totally selfish, and the enablers in this situation are just about as bad.

Totally Selfish...That's my bottom line...

[Inner Dirt]

I think the logical out would be to say to confused kids with athletic skills, save the transitioning for later, and compete with your birth gender. Or go with the transitioning and give up the competition. Instead, we have to invest the resources of athletic organizations and the high emotions of everyone else involved into the personal satisfaction of one individual who has to have it his/her way. Totally selfish, and the enablers in this situation are just about as bad.

Amazing how in this country the majority and masses can be inconvenienced to make allowances for deviates like this wrestler. So she (sorry, it has a vagina as off this writing, not a penis) can be whatever she thinks she is, she is allowed to take hormones that give her the ability to develop male like strength and athleticism. This gives her a huge advantage over the normal girls, a man of average strength is 3 times stronger than the average woman.
So if there are 1,000 girls wrestling in that weight class in the state of Texas you have screwed all of them out of a chance of winning so one oddball can be happy. Only in America, WTF.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Amazing how in this country the majority and masses can be inconvenienced to make allowances for deviates like this wrestler. So she (sorry, it has a vagina as off this writing, not a penis) can be whatever she thinks she is, she is allowed to take hormones that give her the ability to develop male like strength and athleticism. This gives her a huge advantage over the normal girls, a man of average strength is 3 times stronger than the average woman.
So if there are 1,000 girls wrestling in that weight class in the state of Texas you have screwed all of them out of a chance of winning so one oddball can be happy. Only in America, WTF.

People have different beliefs about what makes a person homosexual or transgendered. I happen to believe that it is the way they are born. I can't imagine anybody going through what that girl is going through without something she can't control driving her. She certainly didn't decide to transition just so she could win a wrestling tournament.

I'll just repeat what I've already said. Don't blame the girl for the incompetence of the adults involved. Those adults have the power to do the right thing. That is what needs to be done.

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't blame the student involved either. And I also believe it is pretty much out of a person's control who they are attracted to and how they see themselves gender-wise.

However, I don't necessarily believe they are born this way. Perhaps in some cases, perhaps not in other cases. Is the science "settled" on this? I don't believe that it is...

Just as intelligence is partly nature, partly nurture, I believe sexual identity and sexual orientation can be influenced just as much by the environment one develops in, as it can be by heredity.

[rastajenk]

What is the Q in LGBTQ? Can a person be born "Questioning?" Does that even make sense? It seems to me the Q undercuts the notion that humans can be born L or G; or B or T, for that matter.

[classhandicapper]

We live in a delusional society that is getting more delusional by the day. I can't even bring myself to try to have conversations with some people on the left anymore. I don't care who people are attracted to, who they sleep with, what sex they think they are, or anything else along those lines as long as it's all between consenting adults.

However, when it comes to competition you are the sex your chromosomes and pre op genitalia say you are because there ARE physical differences associated with those genetics. The rules governing drugs, hormones, etc... should apply to everyone.

If this person (originally female) wants to complete as a wrestler she has to do it as a woman but drug and hormone free. If it's more important for her to transition, then she can't compete. It's that freaking simple.

[Inner Dirt]

People have different beliefs about what makes a person homosexual or transgendered. I happen to believe that it is the way they are born. I can't imagine anybody going through what that girl is going through without something she can't control driving her. She certainly didn't decide to transition just so she could win a wrestling tournament.

I'll just repeat what I've already said. Don't blame the girl for the incompetence of the adults involved. Those adults have the power to do the right thing. That is what needs to be done.


She gets some of the blame for taking advantage of the situation, she isn't any better than the adults involved. She is competing with an extremely unfair advantage. How she could take any pride in beating girls who are training using natural methods is beyond pathetic.

[johnhannibalsmith]

What is the Q in LGBTQ? Can a person be born "Questioning?" Does that even make sense? It seems to me the Q undercuts the notion that humans can be born L or G; or B or T, for that matter.

Queer. Thankfully. Every once in a while I let that one slip while meaning no harm and now I don't have to stretch it out to 'queer-y' and try to finish a whole new sentence since it's okay again.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

She gets some of the blame for taking advantage of the situation, she isn't any better than the adults involved. She is competing with an extremely unfair advantage. How she could take any pride in beating girls who are training using natural methods is beyond pathetic.

I don't think anyone is arguing that she didn't have an advantage. I'm not sure I blame her any more than I blame Trump for taking advantage of tax laws that allowed him not to pay taxes. The poor kid just wanted to wrestle. The rules made her wrestle in the girls bracket. Texas could just have easily been as enlightened as the Olympics and allowed her to wrestle on the boys side of the table.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I don't think anyone is arguing that she didn't have an advantage. I'm not sure I blame her any more than I blame Trump for taking advantage of tax laws that allowed him not to pay taxes. The poor kid just wanted to wrestle. The rules made her wrestle in the girls bracket. Texas could just have easily been as enlightened as the Olympics and allowed her to wrestle on the boys side of the table.

Stop making sense.

[Robert Fischer]

I identify as a black comedian. Yet I am stared at when I take the stage, and have had patrons threaten and boo, when I use the n-word.

It's funny when people want to make believe that boring physical characteristics of theirs are different than they really are.
That is legitimately funny, although not really as creative as something involving abstract ideas or thoughts.

The MOST funny aspect is the 'Emperor's New Clothes' phenomenon, where people in the environment of the actor are afraid to speak about reality.

She's a girl who wants to live as a man and is taking PEDs while playing HS sports against girls.

Anyone who says things like "He dropped to his knees to celebrate his championship" steals the show with foolish entertainment.

[woodtoo]

Isn't taking hormone drugs cheating? I thought they disqualified many for this?

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Queer. Thankfully. Every once in a while I let that one slip while meaning no harm and now I don't have to stretch it out to 'queer-y' and try to finish a whole new sentence since it's okay again.

I'll admit I don't know enough about the definition of queer, at least as the community uses it, to understand why it isn't covered by the L, B, G, and T.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I'll admit I don't know enough about the definition of queer, at least as the community uses it, to understand why it isn't covered by the L, B, G, and T.

I just don't want to have to vomit up a bowl of alphabet soup in order to reference a non-hetero, so I'd just assume they kept the Q and dropped the rest.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Isn't taking hormone drugs cheating? I thought they disqualified many for this?

It is allowed under Texas high school rules for those in transition. I've also mentioned that it is allowed by MLB for players who have been diagnosed with low-T. It's also allowed in racing, including Hong Kong.

[MONEY]

I don't think anyone is arguing that she didn't have an advantage. I'm not sure I blame her any more than I blame Trump for taking advantage of tax laws that allowed him not to pay taxes. The poor kid just wanted to wrestle. The rules made her wrestle in the girls bracket. Texas could just have easily been as enlightened as the Olympics and allowed her to wrestle on the boys side of the table.
In my opinion, had the State of Texas been smart enough to allow her to compete against the boys, we would have never heard of her. She would have been flattened by most of the boys and gotten out of wrestling.

[newtothegame]

I love how the story writer, always refers to "Mack" as "him" or "He" or any other pronoun used to describe a guy.
I am of the belief that you are born who you are born as. I would take this one step further and say that since gender re-assignment hasn't happened yet, then she is still a girl.
However, I would also say in my opinion that it is not her fault for having to stay in the girls division. That is the responsibility of Texas athletics. The girl is only doing as instructed in terms of her wrestling.
I would also add that this whole concept of "Identifying" as something other then you really are is total BS. Can I identify as something I'm not and then everyone will automatically provide my new identity to me? If so, I want to identify as the richest man in the world or something along those lines. I will provide address so you all can start sending me the provisions to make that happen :lol::lol::lol:

[HalvOnHorseracing]

I love how the story writer, always refers to "Mack" as "him" or "He" or any other pronoun used to describe a guy.
I am of the belief that you are born who you are born as. I would take this one step further and say that since gender re-assignment hasn't happened yet, then she is still a girl.
However, I would also say in my opinion that it is not her fault for having to stay in the girls division. That is the responsibility of Texas athletics. The girl is only doing as instructed in terms of her wrestling.
I would also add that this whole concept of "Identifying" as something other then you really are is total BS. Can I identify as something I'm not and then everyone will automatically provide my new identity to me? If so, I want to identify as the richest man in the world or something along those lines. I will provide address so you all can start sending me the provisions to make that happen :lol::lol::lol:

I've actually worked with three people who were born men and transitioned to female. Oddly enough, all three of them were brilliant scientists, although I don't know there was anything meaningful in that. I don't think it would have been accurate to say they "identified" as women, as if they thought, if I can be anything I want I think I'll be a woman. In whatever way you believe you are a man, that is how they believed they were women. I don't pretend to understand it. But I certainly believe nobody would go through it on a whim.

[VigorsTheGrey]

I've actually worked with three people who were born men and transitioned to female. Oddly enough, all three of them were brilliant scientists, although I don't know there was anything meaningful in that. I don't think it would have been accurate to say they "identified" as women, as if they thought, if I can be anything I want I think I'll be a woman. In whatever way you believe you are a man, that is how they believed they were women. I don't pretend to understand it. But I certainly believe nobody would go through it on a whim.

One woman I know works in a field that historically has been dominated by men....She is brilliant and successful...and can work circles around most men...One of her colleagues mentioned that she "was different" than most females in that "she thinks like a man"....I find this comment rather intriguing....are there really distinct ways that men "think" as opposed to how women "think"...? If so, I would love to hear more about this....

[Robert Fischer]

Isn't taking hormone drugs cheating? I thought they disqualified many for this?

Yes. She should not be allowed to participate in any high school athletics, regardless of what gender classification is determined.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Yes. She should not be allowed to participate in any high school athletics, regardless of what gender classification is determined.

I mentioned that women transitioning to men are allowed to compete in the Olympics against men with no restrictions in terms of the hormones they are taking. Perhaps the Olympics are not enlightened, but if it is good enough for them, it is good enough for me.

[VigorsTheGrey]

We live in a delusional society that is getting more delusional by the day. I can't even bring myself to try to have conversations with some people on the left anymore. I don't care who people are attracted to, who they sleep with, what sex they think they are, or anything else along those lines as long as it's all between consenting adults.

However, when it comes to competition you are the sex your chromosomes and pre op genitalia say you are because there ARE physical differences associated with those genetics. The rules governing drugs, hormones, etc... should apply to everyone.

If this person (originally female) wants to complete as a wrestler she has to do it as a woman but drug and hormone free. If it's more important for her to transition, then she can't compete. It's that freaking simple.

You are right....this is the correct solution....as it is, her hormone therapy creates an unfair imbalance in body mass and strength versus her competitors.....and much like performance enhancing drugs are banned in most sports, hormone supplements ought to be banned for use in competitive events......you use...? Then you cannot compete...it really is that simple.

[Robert Fischer]

One woman I know works in a field that historically has been dominated by men....She is brilliant and successful...and can work circles around most men...One of her colleagues mentioned that she "was different" than most females in that "she thinks like a man"....I find this comment rather intriguing....are there really distinct ways that men "think" as opposed to how women "think"...? If so, I would love to hear more about this....

Critical thinking is rare among ALL genders.

There is the stereo type of woman whose role is passive and dependent, and whose desirability is treated way more importantly than intelligence. Some women that is certainly true.
Some women are legitimately more intelligent and resourceful than most men.

[Robert Fischer]

I mentioned that women transitioning to men are allowed to compete in the Olympics against men with no restrictions in terms of the hormones they are taking. Perhaps the Olympics are not enlightened, but if it is good enough for them, it is good enough for me.

I call it for what it is.

[Valuist]

I mentioned that women transitioning to men are allowed to compete in the Olympics against men with no restrictions in terms of the hormones they are taking. Perhaps the Olympics are not enlightened, but if it is good enough for them, it is good enough for me.

Yes, because the Olympics have never had drugging scandals.

[MargieRose]

I think the logical out would be to say to confused kids with athletic skills, save the transitioning for later, and compete with your birth gender. Or go with the transitioning and give up the competition. Instead, we have to invest the resources of athletic organizations and the high emotions of everyone else involved into the personal satisfaction of one individual who has to have it his/her way. Totally selfish, and the enablers in this situation are just about as bad.
:ThmbUp:

[delayjf]

Taking testosterone is taking steroids, and that is what she is taking to transition. As I said, allowing kids in transition to take it was a Texas rule.

What do you suppose the long term healthcare issues will be for those transgender who will be on steroids for life?

I didn't know A-Rod was allowed to use testosterone by MLB. FYI, low testosterone is one side effect of previous testosterone use.