Religion II [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

Greyfox

02-20-2017, 07:21 PM

Pope Francis has posted:

"The other is a reflection that I shared at our most recent World Meeting of Popular Movements, and I feel is important to say it again: no people is criminal and no religion is terrorist. Christian terrorism does not exist, Jewish terrorism does not exist, and Muslim terrorism does not exist. They do not exist."

http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/messages/pont-messages/2017/documents/papa-francesco_20170210_movimenti-popolari-modesto.html

You could have fooled me about those Muslim extremists.

boxcar

02-20-2017, 08:27 PM

Light

02-20-2017, 09:46 PM

Oh...so I should embrace everyone's version of religion even though all the versions conflict in major points?

No, you do not have to embrace anyone else's perception of God. You just have to restrain yourself from damning anyone who disagrees with your version of God, to Hell.

HalvOnHorseracing

02-20-2017, 09:59 PM

Then you've mis-titled the thread - you should have called it "Boxcar's version of Christianity" - 'cause the "Religion I" thread was rarely an open-minded discussion of religion with all your narrow-minded posts....

I was thinking "boxcar Versus the World"

Tom

02-20-2017, 10:16 PM

I was hoping that three days after the original was closed, this one would rise........kind of a conversation starter.

Larry 3:16 "I don't care who you are, that's funny!"

TJDave

02-20-2017, 10:25 PM

OK, that's funny.

Who's Larry?

Tom

02-20-2017, 10:33 PM

The Cable Guy. Git'r done!

TJDave

02-20-2017, 10:35 PM

The Cable Guy. Git'r done!

Double funny. :lol:

boxcar

02-21-2017, 09:37 AM

No, you do not have to embrace anyone else's perception of God. You just have to restrain yourself from damning anyone who disagrees with your version of God, to Hell.

I'm only the messenger. I don't damn anyone; I only pass on Jesus' gospel message -- a message that is a two edge, depending on how it is received.

boxcar

02-21-2017, 09:39 AM

I was thinking "boxcar Versus the World"

That would be no match; for not even the gates of hell can withstand the onslaught of God's church!

VigorsTheGrey

02-21-2017, 11:02 AM

When the bible says god is light...is that literal...? How about that god is love...? Is that a metaphor?

boxcar

02-21-2017, 11:16 AM

When the bible says god is light...is that literal...? How about that god is love...? Is that a metaphor?

Yes, to 1 and no to 2. However, we should refrain from ascribing human emotions to God. His love is not like human love, nor is his hate like human hate. Nor is his anger like human anger, etc.

TJDave

02-21-2017, 11:29 AM

VigorsTheGrey

02-21-2017, 11:30 AM

Yes, to 1 and no to 2. However, we should refrain from ascribing human emotions to God. His love is not like human love, nor is his hate like human hate. Nor is his anger like human anger, etc.

Here are interesting websites I ran across....I was wondering what your thoughts were on it, especially on the links between the British Crown, the Vatican, Freemasonry, and the Jesuits....

https://archive.org/stream/MichaelTsarionIrishOriginsOfCivilizationVolume1/Michael%20Tsarion/Michael%20Tsarion%20-%20Irish%20Origins%20Of%20Civilization%20-%20Volume%201#page/n0/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/MichaelTsarionIrishOriginsOfCivilizationVolume1/Michael%20Tsarion/Michael%20Tsarion%20-%20Irish%20Origins%20Of%20Civilization%20-%20Volume%202#page/n0/mode/1up

boxcar

02-21-2017, 11:31 AM

Radar love.

No...God doesn't love like you either.

Actor

02-21-2017, 11:34 AM

As far as the resurrection, it's the best attested historical fact of antiquity ever recorded!

I'll call you and raise you 4.
Josephus, the NT Apocrypha, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Tacitus

Josephus. Previously debunked as you acknowledged.
NT Apocrypha. Give me a break. Are you seriously trying to sell the idea that NT Apocrypha is not Christian propaganda?
Tertullian. Born 155 C.E. could not possibly have attested to the mythical event. Plus, of course, he was on the Christian payroll, undoubtedly indoctrinated and not impartial.
Justin Martyr Born 100 C.E. is in the same boat as Tertullian.
That leaves Tacitus. Setting the mythicist question aside for the moment and addressing your assertion that the resurrection is “the best attested historical fact of antiquity ever recorded” I must ask where, in all his writings, does Tacitus so much as mention the resurrection?

TJDave

02-21-2017, 11:36 AM

No...God doesn't love like you either.

Syntax, Boxcar, syntax.

VigorsTheGrey

02-21-2017, 11:57 AM

http://www.ancient.eu/Constantine_I/

boxcar

02-21-2017, 12:29 PM

Josephus. Previously debunked as you acknowledged.
NT Apocrypha. Give me a break. Are you seriously trying to sell the idea that NT Apocrypha is not Christian propaganda?
Tertullian. Born 155 C.E. could not possibly have attested to the mythical event. Plus, of course, he was on the Christian payroll, undoubtedly indoctrinated and not impartial.
Justin Martyr Born 100 C.E. is in the same boat as Tertullian.
That leaves Tacitus. Setting the mythicist question aside for the moment and addressing your assertion that the resurrection is “the best attested historical fact of antiquity ever recorded” I must ask where, in all his writings, does Tacitus so much as mention the resurrection?

Sir, you asked for one extra-biblical source. You didn't qualify your challenge with "extra-biblical, atheistic-sources, or "extra-biblical secular" sources. Nor did you qualify with any date parameters.

But you're right about Tacitus. My bad. I misread something. However, as you know Tacitus did mention Jesus, his death, etc.

boxcar

02-21-2017, 12:32 PM

Syntax, Boxcar, syntax.

And what would you know about syntax?

boxcar

02-21-2017, 12:35 PM

Here are interesting websites I ran across....I was wondering what your thoughts were on it, especially on the links between the British Crown, the Vatican, Freemasonry, and the Jesuits....

https://archive.org/stream/MichaelTsarionIrishOriginsOfCivilizationVolume1/Michael%20Tsarion/Michael%20Tsarion%20-%20Irish%20Origins%20Of%20Civilization%20-%20Volume%201#page/n0/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/MichaelTsarionIrishOriginsOfCivilizationVolume1/Michael%20Tsarion/Michael%20Tsarion%20-%20Irish%20Origins%20Of%20Civilization%20-%20Volume%202#page/n0/mode/1up

I don't have time to read online books. (I have enough of my own backlog of hardcopies.) If you have a point to make, make it as succinctly as you can.

VigorsTheGrey

02-21-2017, 12:54 PM

I don't have time to read online books. (I have enough of my own backlog of hardcopies.) If you have a point to make, make it as succinctly as you can.

If you don't read other books Boxcar, you'll never get exposed to new ideas...surely you are not one of those narrow minded persons who get all of their viewpoints from one source, are you....?

boxcar

02-21-2017, 01:17 PM

If you don't read other books Boxcar, you'll never get exposed to new ideas...surely you are not one of those narrow minded persons who get all of their viewpoints from one source, are you....?

If you can't distill your online books into succinct, coherent points in a forum like this, you're wasting your time here. If I stopped to read everything under the sun -- all alternative views -- I would never get a chance to study things of genuine interest to me.

Actor

02-21-2017, 01:37 PM

Sir, you asked for one extra-biblical source. You didn't qualify your challenge with "extra-biblical, atheistic-sources, or "extra-biblical secular" sources. Nor did you qualify with any date parameters.Well, duh! Do I really have to spell it out for you? Do you really have to be told that stuff written centuries after the alleged event by authors who do not identify their sources are in no position to attest to the historicity of the event? Do you really expect me to come down to your level of gullibility?

Ok. I'll spell it out for you.

Scripture proves nothing.
Writings by authors who do not identify their sources, or who cite only sources whose existence cannot be verified, prove nothing.
Writings by authors who have a vested interested in perpetuating the myth prove nothing.

You are trying to shift the burden of proof. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The alleged resurrection is a super-extraordinary event and requires super-extraordinary evidence. Your evidence, if you can call it that, is tenuous and flimsy.

You made the claim. You prove it. You come up with evidence that is convincing.

You want "best attested?" Here are a few candidates.

The reign of Ramses II.
The conquests of Alexander the Great.
The measurement of the size of the earth by Eratosthenes.
The Second Servile War (i.e., the Spartacus Revolt).
The conquests of Julius Caesar.
The assassination of Julius Caesar.

VigorsTheGrey

02-21-2017, 02:23 PM

From The Irish Origins of Civilization

"1.Judeo-Christianity is an adulterated form of Druidism and Amenism
2. Atonism is the basis for the monotheistic elements of Judeo-Christian Theology
3. Members of the Flavian dynasty of Rome worked closely with leading Jews (Atonists) to establish the Christian religion
4. The so called "jews" who worked alongside the Roman nobility, and who directed their operations, were Atonists. Specifically, they were the leaders of the Order of Melchizedek (Akhenaton)
5. The founder of Atonism was Pharoah Akhenaten (Amenhotep IV). He appears in the Old Testament as Moses
6. Akhenaten's Atonists were members of the Hyksos dynasty of kings and princes..."

boxcar

02-21-2017, 03:58 PM

Well, duh! Do I really have to spell it out for you?

Yeah, you do because you are so duplicitous, as you have just proved again. Always moving the goalposts.

Do you really have to be told that stuff written centuries after the alleged event by authors who do not identify their sources are in no position to attest to the historicity of the event? Do you really expect me to come down to your level of gullibility?

Ok. I'll spell it out for you.

Scripture proves nothing.
Writings by authors who do not identify their sources, or who cite only sources whose existence cannot be verified, prove nothing.
Writings by authors who have a vested interested in perpetuating the myth prove nothing.

You are trying to shift the burden of proof. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The alleged resurrection is a super-extraordinary event and requires super-extraordinary evidence. Your evidence, if you can call it that, is tenuous and flimsy.

You made the claim. You prove it. You come up with evidence that is convincing.

You want "best attested?" Here are a few candidates.

The reign of Ramses II.
The conquests of Alexander the Great.
The measurement of the size of the earth by Eratosthenes.
The Second Servile War (i.e., the Spartacus Revolt).
The conquests of Julius Caesar.
The assassination of Julius Caesar.

Again, Jesus' existence is accepted by most scholars in this world. Some eyewitnesses to his life, death, burial and resurrection actually wrote parts of the NT -- John and Peter. Luke traveled with Paul and had the eyewitness accounts of the apostles Paul met with -- plus other eyewitnesses. Paul also saw the risen Christ and he wrote at least seven epistles. It is also very likely that Matthew is the Jewish tax collector Levi who came to faith in Jesus. (It was very common in the ANE for a person to have two first names!) Mark was very good friends with Peter and undoubtedly drew very much of his material from the apostle, etc.

In short, Jesus' existence is extremely well attested to. It is no wonder that no ancient writer or historian ever disputed his existence. Not even the Christ-hating Jews in the Babylonian Talmud denied his existence. And if anyone didn't want Jesus to exist, it would have been them!

boxcar

02-21-2017, 03:59 PM

VigorsTheGrey

02-21-2017, 04:23 PM

Now...do you actually have a point of substance to make about your talking points above?

Each one is already a significant point of substance...or don't you understand this...?

TJDave

02-21-2017, 04:31 PM

Each one is already a significant point of substance...or don't you understand this...?

Nothing having anything to do with religion has a significant point of substance.

boxcar

02-21-2017, 04:59 PM

Nothing having anything to do with religion has a significant point of substance.

And so you waste your time in this thread for what reason, specifically? Why not seek important topics out that might provide you with an opportunity to actually make a point of substance for once in your life?

boxcar

02-21-2017, 05:00 PM

Each one is already a significant point of substance...or don't you understand this...?

No...not really. I'm not biting at the bait.

Show Me the Wire

02-21-2017, 05:46 PM

0d4FHHf00pY

Actor

02-21-2017, 07:46 PM

And so you waste your time in this thread for what reason, specifically? Why not seek important topics out that might provide you with an opportunity to actually make a point of substance for once in your life?Why don't you?

thaskalos

02-21-2017, 08:01 PM

Yeah, you do because you are so duplicitous, as you have just proved again. Always moving the goalposts.

Again, Jesus' existence is accepted by most scholars in this world. Some eyewitnesses to his life, death, burial and resurrection actually wrote parts of the NT -- John and Peter. Luke traveled with Paul and had the eyewitness accounts of the apostles Paul met with -- plus other eyewitnesses. Paul also saw the risen Christ and he wrote at least seven epistles. It is also very likely that Matthew is the Jewish tax collector Levi who came to faith in Jesus. (It was very common in the ANE for a person to have two first names!) Mark was very good friends with Peter and undoubtedly drew very much of his material from the apostle, etc.

In short, Jesus' existence is extremely well attested to. It is no wonder that no ancient writer or historian ever disputed his existence. Not even the Christ-hating Jews in the Babylonian Talmud denied his existence. And if anyone didn't want Jesus to exist, it would have been them!

The gospels of the NT were all written anonymously, and nothing in them identifies, in ANY way, who the authors were...or with which other "gospel authors" these anonymous writers "associated".

Oddly enough...the author of the "Gospel of Thomas" fully identifies himself in the text as "Thomas O Didymos", who was "Doubting" Thomas...an acknowledged disciple of Jesus. But that gospel, although written by an authentic Jesus disciple, did not please the Church...so, it was despised and subsequently rejected. As a result, the "anonymous gospels" were accepted as "fact"...while the text written by the legitimate disciple was called "heretical"...and thrown away. Truth is indeed stranger than fiction. :faint:

HalvOnHorseracing

02-21-2017, 08:05 PM

Actor

02-21-2017, 08:23 PM

Yeah, you do because you are so duplicitous, as you have just proved again.Ad hominem attack! Also violates #4,9 & 12 of the TOS.
Again, Jesus' existence is accepted by most scholars in this world.Argumentum ad populum! I.e., appeal to the people. If enough people believe it, it must be true.
Some eyewitnesses to his life, death, burial and resurrection actually wrote parts of the NT -- John and Peter. Luke traveled with Paul and had the eyewitness accounts of the apostles Paul met with -- plus other eyewitnesses. Paul also saw the risen Christ and he wrote at least seven epistles. It is also very likely that Matthew is the Jewish tax collector Levi who came to faith in Jesus. (It was very common in the ANE for a person to have two first names!) Mark was very good friends with Peter and undoubtedly drew very much of his material from the apostle, etc.

In short, Jesus' existence is extremely well attested to. It is no wonder that no ancient writer or historian ever disputed his existence. Not even the Christ-hating Jews in the Babylonian Talmud denied his existence. And if anyone didn't want Jesus to exist, it would have been them!As you are fond of saying, "We've been down this road before." The question of the moment is whether the alleged resurrection is the most attested event in ancient history. It's an outlandish claim and as the claimant the burden of proof is on you.

boxcar

02-21-2017, 08:49 PM

Ad hominem attack! Also violates #4,9 & 12 of the TOS.
Argumentum ad populum! I.e., appeal to the people. If enough people believe it, it must be true.
As you are fond of saying, "We've been down this road before." The question of the moment is whether the alleged resurrection is the most attested event in ancient history. It's an outlandish claim and as the claimant the burden of proof is on you.

Oh, it is indeed. The resurrected Christ was seen by four (4) NT writers (not 3 as previously stated). Peter, John and Paul. Then there is James who wrote James. Granted, scholars aren't certain which James is it is: Is it one of the original apostles or is it Jesus' brother James who converted after he saw his resurrected brother? In either case...all the above were certainly contemporary with Jesus. Then you toss in Mark who received much of his material from Peter. And Luke saw all the apostles (or certainly most of them) and traveled with Paul. So, Luke got much of his information from them, as well as being eyewitness to many if not most of the miracles Paul performed, etc., etc. We couple all these facts with the consistency of all the different resurrection accounts, the transformed lives, the thousands who converted to Christ through gospel preaching etc., and the resurrection is the logical inference to the best explanation.

Have a nice night, sir.

thaskalos

02-21-2017, 08:56 PM

Oh, it is indeed. The resurrected Christ was seen by four (4) NT writers (not 3 as previously stated). Peter, John and Paul. Then there is James who wrote James. Granted, scholars aren't certain which James is it is: Is it one of the original apostles or is it Jesus' brother James who converted after he saw his resurrected brother? In either case...all the above were certainly contemporary with Jesus. Then you toss in Mark who received much of his material from Peter. And Luke saw all the apostles (or certainly most of them) and traveled with Paul. So, Luke got much of his information from them, as well as being eyewitness to many if not most of the miracles Paul performed, etc., etc. We couple all these facts with the consistency of all the different resurrection accounts, the transformed lives, the thousands who converted to Christ through gospel preaching etc., and the resurrection is the logical inference to the best explanation.

Have a nice night, sir.

"Resurrection", and "logical"...used in the same sentence...without speaking in jest. If this is what "faith" is...then I want no part of it.

boxcar

02-21-2017, 09:02 PM

"Resurrection", and "logical"...used in the same sentence...without speaking in jest. If this is what "faith" is...then I want no part of it.

Right. You'd much prefer to stick with your irrational blind doubts.

thaskalos

02-21-2017, 09:09 PM

Right. You'd much prefer to stick with your irrational blind doubts.

If I believe that a man actually resurrected himself from the dead, then...could I ever doubt ANYTHING in life?

VigorsTheGrey

02-21-2017, 09:15 PM

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus

There is a possibility that Josephus aided members of the Flavian dynasty to concoct a new religious narrative in the attempt to transform rebellious Jews into subservient taxpayers.....and the new narrative worked as many Jews converted....Josephus fully defected to the Roman side.

VigorsTheGrey

02-21-2017, 09:38 PM

If I believe that a man actually resurrected himself from the dead, then...could I ever doubt ANYTHING in life?

I doubt it, paradoxically...

Actor

02-22-2017, 03:34 AM

Oh, it is indeed. The resurrected Christ was seen by four (4) NT writers (not 3 as previously stated).And Snow White lived for years with seven horny guys, remained a virgin, and was resurrected by love's first kiss. :rolleyes:

VigorsTheGrey

02-22-2017, 11:13 AM

http://www.nbufront.org/MastersMuseums/JGJackson/ChristMyth/ChristMythPart3.html

Actor

02-22-2017, 01:08 PM

I dedicate this thread to all skeptics -- Actor, Hcap, Thaskalos, Vig, etc. This is the place to come to learn about true religion and the one true God.Am I first in the list because you think I'm the most skeptical? Or is it just in alphabetical order? :coffee:

VigorsTheGrey

02-22-2017, 01:30 PM

For a brief synopsis of the psychological unpinnings of the rabidly regilious mindset see page 503 of the following document:

https://archive.org/stream/MichaelTsarionIrishOriginsOfCivilizationVolume1/Michael%20Tsarion/Michael%20Tsarion%20-%20Irish%20Origins%20Of%20Civilization%20-%20Volume%202#page/n503/mode/1up

And the pages that follow page 505 are well worth the time spent here to examine their contents...

TJDave

02-22-2017, 01:45 PM

500 pages???

Can't you just say bat**** crazy and be done with it?

boxcar

02-22-2017, 01:51 PM

Why don't you?

Because you'd miss me.

VigorsTheGrey

02-22-2017, 01:52 PM

500 pages???

Can't you just say bat**** crazy and be done with it?

OK, bat......crazy!....but it still is an interesting read....and even with all this, religionists will admit no problems....all is well....in the garden, Chauncey...

boxcar

02-22-2017, 01:53 PM

Am I first in the list because you think I'm the most skeptical? Or is it just in alphabetical order? :coffee:

Why do you ask: Are you looking to be awarded with a trophy of participation?

boxcar

02-22-2017, 01:55 PM

And Snow White lived for years with seven horny guys, remained a virgin, and was resurrected by love's first kiss. :rolleyes:

That's so sweet of you to believe that. You do have a feminine side, heh?

boxcar

02-22-2017, 01:57 PM

If I believe that a man actually resurrected himself from the dead, then...could I ever doubt ANYTHING in life?

Sure you could! If God didn't have the power to raise the dead, then he wouldn't be all-powerful, would he?

dnlgfnk

02-22-2017, 01:59 PM

500 pages???

Can't you just say bat**** crazy and be done with it?

You were right, TJDave...

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129879&highlight=Jews

dnlgfnk

02-22-2017, 02:00 PM

Actor

02-22-2017, 06:56 PM

Why do you ask: Are you looking to be awarded with a trophy of participation?Do they have that?

boxcar

02-22-2017, 09:09 PM

Do they have that?

Oh yeah...in this new leftist Amerika -- there are no winners and losers, as is the case in the real world -- only winners. Where have you been?

Actor

02-23-2017, 01:18 PM

Where have you been?All the states west of the Mississippi except Alaska, Hawaii, Washington & Oregon. All the states east of the Mississippi except those east of New York.

Canada, Mexico, Jamaica and Grand Cayman.

Much more before I die.

Not sure I should count New Jersey. We were in Philadelphia and got lost. Wound up in NJ and returned to Philadelphia without stopping. Also maybe should not count Wisconsin. We drove from Chicago to Minneapolis and drove all the way through Wisconsin without stopping.

boxcar

02-23-2017, 01:57 PM

All the states west of the Mississippi except Alaska, Hawaii, Washington & Oregon. All the states east of the Mississippi except those east of New York.

Canada, Mexico, Jamaica and Grand Cayman.

Much more before I die.

Not sure I should count New Jersey. We were in Philadelphia and got lost. Wound up in NJ and returned to Philadelphia without stopping. Also maybe should not count Wisconsin. We drove from Chicago to Minneapolis and drove all the way through Wisconsin without stopping.

Then you should have known how millennials hate the idea of winners and losers.

By the way, you're not missing anything by staying away from Jersey. :puke:

Hank

02-23-2017, 07:10 PM

The gospels of the NT were all written anonymously, and nothing in them identifies, in ANY way, who the authors were...or with which other "gospel authors" these anonymous writers "associated".

Oddly enough...the author of the "Gospel of Thomas" fully identifies himself in the text as "Thomas O Didymos", who was "Doubting" Thomas...an acknowledged disciple of Jesus. But that gospel, although written by an authentic Jesus disciple, did not please the Church...so, it was despised and subsequently rejected. As a result, the "anonymous gospels" were accepted as "fact"...while the text written by the legitimate disciple was called "heretical"...and thrown away. Truth is indeed stranger than fiction. :faint:

Buried in desert sands for 2000 years the Gospel of Thomas proclaims.......

"Know what is in front of your face, and what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you.
For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed. And there is nothing buried that will not be raised."

And as you know my friend, the contents of this Gospel validates much of what one George Ivanovich Gurdjieff taught.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE5MFF2UNB4

Actor

02-23-2017, 07:50 PM

Where have you been?I forgot to mention that I've been to Hell. It's in Michigan. :coffee:

Actor

02-23-2017, 07:56 PM

Then you should have known how millennials hate the idea of winners and losers.What are millennials?

By the way, you're not missing anything by staying away from Jersey.Same for Idaho and Iowa. Just my opinion.

What's this got to do with religion?

boxcar

02-23-2017, 08:16 PM

I forgot to mention that I've been to Hell. It's in Michigan. :coffee:

Trust me: You haven't. A foretaste perhaps, but not the real thing.

Actor

02-23-2017, 08:55 PM

Trust me: You haven't. A foretaste perhaps, but not the real thing.Have you been there?

TJDave

02-23-2017, 09:49 PM

I forgot to mention that I've been to Hell. It's in Michigan. :coffee:

I know you're going to hell.

I just hope we can have a beer...

And it's cold.

Actor

02-23-2017, 10:04 PM

I know you're going to hell.

I just hope we can have a beer...

And it's cold.There are two bars there.

And, yes, it was cold.

Or did you mean the beer? :)

TJDave

02-23-2017, 10:23 PM

There are two bars there.

And, yes, it was cold.

Or did you mean the beer? :)

I just know that Boxcar believes he won't be there.

That makes hell, heaven.

boxcar

02-24-2017, 11:36 AM

Have you been there?

There are many varieties of foretastes of hell here on earth. And I've been to some of them. I posted once on this subject (perhaps before your day) on how life on this earth prefigures heaven and hell.

boxcar

02-24-2017, 11:37 AM

I just know that Boxcar believes he won't be there.

That makes hell, heaven.

Won't be where: The bars or hell?

VigorsTheGrey

02-24-2017, 12:08 PM

..... (Oh, never mind, God already told me all I need to know right here in this book....it is called the Bible....it tells the history of these people called Hebrews and Israelites... They are God's chosen people....and about a boy that was born in a manger who grew up to become a king and went on to save everyone from themselves and this evil thing called Satan and his angels who is out to get us so that he can have company forever in a bad place called Hell....which is where you will end up if you do not believe in the little boy in the manger who grew up to become king....I could tell you more but I have to go to band camp right now....).....

Greyfox

02-24-2017, 02:39 PM

Pope Francis said this week:

“But to be a Catholic like him, better to be an atheist!”

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2017/02/23/pope-says-better-atheist-catholic-living-double-life/

LottaKash

02-24-2017, 03:53 PM

Notice that it is about "The Kash"...?

boxcar

02-24-2017, 04:40 PM

Notice that it is about "The Kash"...?

Yup, the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.

Actor

02-25-2017, 09:59 PM

Yup, the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.
https://static2.sdith-images.com/media/catalog/product/cache/7/thumbnail/464x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_16353_1_195315_1_38903_1_48_1_835919.jpg

VigorsTheGrey

02-25-2017, 11:01 PM

When people worship god, what exactly are they doing...? I remember when I would go to church and we would sing songs...but what is it really...?

Being thankful no matter what your condition is...? Having a contrite, meek and humble spirit all the time...?

What does it mean to praise god...?

Do we wave our hands in the air and say "I love you, Lord"...?

How many times do we have to thank god for all that (He/ She/ It) has done for us...?

In what way do we "love" god..."love" Jesus...."love" the spirit...?

How is this love expressed...?

woodtoo

02-26-2017, 11:52 AM

The peaceful Muslims....
ISIS beheads 15 year old in Iraq in public square for listening to western music.

Love expressed in Islam.

PaceAdvantage

02-26-2017, 12:56 PM

The peaceful Muslims....
ISIS beheads 15 year old in Iraq in public square for listening to western music.

Love expressed in Islam.Makes "Jews wearing funny hats" kind of an insignificant topic when you put it like that...wonder if Vigors will agree.

VigorsTheGrey

02-26-2017, 01:43 PM

Makes "Jews wearing funny hats" kind of an insignificant topic when you put it like that...wonder if Vigors will agree.

Old injun saying... "long hair, short hair, no matter with head cut off"...

Still, I think the hats are funny, even if they are insignificant as you suggest...I think the commandment is that the head ought to be covered...(for what reason, I don't know, maybe you can explain it why God should desire this of humans)...but in any event, its like...."I don't really want to cover my head or wear a hat all the time, SO I'll just paste this lace circular patch on my head, and call THAT good...meets the minimum requirements of the law...and nobody can say that my head isn't covered, now can they....?

So I find it humorous the lengths taken by humans to appease an imaginary yet righteous and extremely holy God.....don't you...?

What kind of funny hats do you wear...?

boxcar

02-26-2017, 02:02 PM

How is this love expressed...?

John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
NASB

VigorsTheGrey

02-26-2017, 02:08 PM

John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
NASB
Where is the commandment to keep my head covered...? And why don't you wear a head covering also Boxcar? Like the Jews do and the Pope does...?

HalvOnHorseracing

02-26-2017, 03:24 PM

Catholics used to require women to wear a head covering. I can remember women pinning handkerchiefs to their head before heading inside.

boxcar

02-26-2017, 04:19 PM

Where is the commandment to keep my head covered...? And why don't you wear a head covering also Boxcar? Like the Jews do and the Pope does...?

I do wear a head covering. I call it hair.

VigorsTheGrey

02-26-2017, 04:59 PM

I thought you would be able to quote the Bible verse right off the top of your head, seeing how you are so well acquainted with every other one...so why do you think God is interested in his chosen wearing little circular hats...? And if this is what God commands, then why don't you wear one also...

dnlgfnk

02-26-2017, 06:07 PM

dnlgfnk

02-26-2017, 06:25 PM

uh...

"your" troll, "your" queries...

Time for a Labatts Blue just in time for the Bluenote vs. the Hawks.

boxcar

02-26-2017, 06:36 PM

VigorsTheGrey

02-26-2017, 06:55 PM

Boxcar,

I'm not much for sequels, but you're impressing me in Religious II with some uncharacteristic restraint versus you're troll.

Vigors, of course you're queries could be easily researched in the age of the internet as to the relevant biblical verse, or the motivations of various religious traditions regarding head coverings. Perhaps it would help if you backed away from the keyboard for a long stroll, since "all truly great thoughts are conceived by walking". (Friedrich Nietzsche)

You're right..... I'm taking a stroll as we speak..."The world is too much with us..."

The World Is Too Much With Us

BY WILLIAM WORDSWORTH

The world is too much with us; late and soon,
Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers;—
Little we see in Nature that is ours;
We have given our hearts away, a sordid boon!
This Sea that bares her bosom to the moon;
The winds that will be howling at all hours,
And are up-gathered now like sleeping flowers;
For this, for everything, we are out of tune;
It moves us not. Great God! I’d rather be
A Pagan suckled in a creed outworn;
So might I, standing on this pleasant lea,
Have glimpses that would make me less forlorn;
Have sight of Proteus rising from the sea;
Or hear old Triton blow his wreathèd horn.

VigorsTheGrey

02-26-2017, 07:11 PM

On Jews wearing hats....

"The Talmud states, "Cover your head in order that the fear of heaven may be upon you."[5] Rabbi Hunah ben Joshua never walked 4 cubits (6.6 feet, or 2 meters) with his head uncovered. He explained: "Because the Divine Presence is always over my head."[6] This was understood by Rabbi Yosef Karo in the Shulchan Arukh as indicating that Jewish men should cover their heads and should not walk more than four cubits bareheaded.[7] Covering one's head, such as by wearing a kippah, is described as "honoring God".[8] The Mishnah Berurah modifies this ruling, adding that the Achronim established it as a requirement to wear a head covering even when traversing fewer than four cubits,[9] and even when one is standing still, indoors and outside.[10] K". Wikipedia

PaceAdvantage

02-26-2017, 07:52 PM

fast4522

02-26-2017, 08:11 PM

The war on religion is everywhere, today it is this so tomorrow it is that. Holding back a rant because the assault is really on everyone, until the majority of enlightened pinheads change the war continues.

VigorsTheGrey

02-26-2017, 08:13 PM

WTF is your point...other than more thinly-veiled anti-Semitism?

I could point out about 1000 ridiculous things about every religion...the one you keep citing isn't all that ridiculous compared to some doozies out there...

This is not a Semite thing, besides nearly all Jews alive today are not blood related Semites....so "anti-Semite" is a real misnomer, for sure...

....this all started with women being forced to wear the hijab at the chess tournament held in Iran.....I think they should wear the dang thing and play chess....after all they are there to play chess, not make a political statement over women's rights....at this point, the women are just grandstanding with a global audience....BUT.....

....it did get me thinking about forced head covering for religious reasons...I learn that in Islamic countries, it is done for the reason of female MODESTY...but for Jew males it is done for FEAR OF GOD....two entirely distinct motivations.....BUT.....

It also got me thinking about possible reasons why God would be interested in any head covering at all, male or female.....?

After I search the mind of God, I could not think of any reason why He would care one way or another....and if God doesn't care.....well, well, why the hell should I.....next time I go to synagogue.... I'll leave my hat at home...

Those are my 2 points....

boxcar

02-26-2017, 08:14 PM

WTF is your point...other than more thinly-veiled anti-Semitism?

I could point out about 1000 ridiculous things about every religion...the one you keep citing isn't all that ridiculous compared to some doozies out there...

Not only that but the Talmud ain't the bible; yet he's asking me to justify an extra-biblical religious tradition.

Actor

02-28-2017, 11:34 PM

And I'm not narrow-minded; I'm critical-minded. :cool::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

boxcar

03-01-2017, 10:00 AM

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

:coffee::p

VigorsTheGrey

03-01-2017, 12:58 PM

Interesting read: Enjoy...!

https://archive.org/stream/The_Secret_Teachings_Of_All_Ages_-_Manly_P_Hall#page/n0/mode/2up

Greyfox

03-01-2017, 02:05 PM

Interesting read: Enjoy...!

https://archive.org/stream/The_Secret_Teachings_Of_All_Ages_-_Manly_P_Hall#page/n0/mode/2up

I'd need a magnifying glass to do that.

VigorsTheGrey

03-01-2017, 02:11 PM

Another really interesting book...!

https://archive.org/stream/TheCelticDruids/The_Celtic_Druids#page/n1/mode/2up

VigorsTheGrey

03-01-2017, 02:28 PM

I'd need a magnifying glass to do that.

There is a zooming tool that can be used to magnify the text, it looks like an inspectors magnifying glass...I use it also to read the texts so feel free to do so and enjoy the content of these marvelous books....

Greyfox

03-01-2017, 03:07 PM

Thank you.
I sampled various parts of the book and decided it's not my cup of tea.
But thank you anyways.

VigorsTheGrey

03-01-2017, 04:28 PM

Thank you.
I sampled various parts of the book and decided it's not my cup of tea.
But thank you anyways.

I understand, too many cooks spoil the soup...

VigorsTheGrey

03-01-2017, 05:36 PM

http://www.interhack.net/projects/library/antiquities-jews/

boxcar

03-01-2017, 09:28 PM

http://www.interhack.net/projects/library/antiquities-jews/

That might actually be a pretty interesting read -- comparing a secular historian's view of numerous historical people, events and institutions as presented in the bible.

VigorsTheGrey

03-03-2017, 12:39 PM

Check out this book Boxcar: Very cool...!

https://archive.org/stream/hierophantorglea00stew#page/n9/mode/2up

VigorsTheGrey

03-03-2017, 12:47 PM

Or this one: https://archive.org/stream/theoldpathsorthe00mcauuoft#page/n3/mode/2up

boxcar

03-03-2017, 12:55 PM

Or this one: https://archive.org/stream/theoldpathsorthe00mcauuoft#page/n3/mode/2up

Any resemblance between modern Judaism and biblical Judaism is purely coincidental. In fact, Christianity is eschatological Judaism! Christianity is Judaism fulfilled.

VigorsTheGrey

03-03-2017, 12:55 PM

https://archive.org/stream/secrethistoryofo00walsuoft#page/n5/mode/2up

VigorsTheGrey

03-03-2017, 02:25 PM

https://archive.org/stream/mysteriahistoryo00hennuoft#page/n1/mode/2up

VigorsTheGrey

03-03-2017, 10:04 PM

Any resemblance between modern Judaism and biblical Judaism is purely coincidental. In fact, Christianity is eschatological Judaism! Christianity is Judaism fulfilled.

Any yet neither C nor J are original....They BOTH grew out of an ancient and firmly established religious system....Old wine in new wine skin, as it were...re branded religion...there has never yet existed an entirely true system, nor one entirely false...the worshiping of god has been around for a long, long time, way before these newer arrivals...and all of them have borrowed stuff from each other and made it their own...then usually attempting to cover up their common origins by destroying the vestiges and icons of the former....look at what Islam is doing today, iconoclastic ruination of the historical sites of other religions...

boxcar

03-04-2017, 07:45 AM

Any yet neither C nor J are original....They BOTH grew out of an ancient and firmly established religious system....Old wine in new wine skin, as it were...re branded religion...there has never yet existed an entirely true system, nor one entirely false...the worshiping of god has been around for a long, long time, way before these newer arrivals...and all of them have borrowed stuff from each other and made it their own...then usually attempting to cover up their common origins by destroying the vestiges and icons of the former....look at what Islam is doing today, iconoclastic ruination of the historical sites of other religions...

Wrong. Judaism was the only ancient, organized monotheistic religion in the world. The entire ancient pagan world was thoroughly polytheistic, save for God's elect, which included among other people Abraham, Issac and Jacob -- the Grand Patriarchs of the Hebrews. The Hebrews eventually became Israelites when God made them a bona fide nation (as promised to these patriarchs) by giving them their own constitution, i.e. the Law of Moses.
Trust me on this: You will be very hard pressed to find one ancient people who were not polytheistic.

VigorsTheGrey

03-04-2017, 11:49 AM

Wrong. Judaism was the only ancient, organized monotheistic religion in the world. The entire ancient pagan world was thoroughly polytheistic, save for God's elect, which included among other people Abraham, Issac and Jacob -- the Grand Patriarchs of the Hebrews. The Hebrews eventually became Israelites when God made them a bona fide nation (as promised to these patriarchs) by giving them their own constitution, i.e. the Law of Moses.
Trust me on this: You will be very hard pressed to find one ancient people who were not polytheistic.

Judaism has pagan roots and is pagan as well as Christianity....it is all about Sun worship, the stars, the moon, and kabbala..... They learned their religion from Egyptians....they based their tabernacle on the temples in Egypt.... The Egyptians had arks that they carried around as well...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aten

boxcar

03-04-2017, 01:00 PM

Judaism has pagan roots and is pagan as well as Christianity....it is all about Sun worship, the stars, the moon, and kabbala..... They learned their religion from Egyptians....they based their tabernacle on the temples in Egypt.... The Egyptians had arks that they carried around as well...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aten

Abraham, Issac and Jacob (and many other before them, such as Eve, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Lot, etc.) did not worship the sun, moon or stars or any pagan gods. They worshiped the one true God. In other words, God always had a remnant of true believers.

Yes, the vast majority of the Hebrews who spent 430 years in slavery in Egypt naturally were influenced greatly by the pagan Egyptian religious practices. The Book of Exodus makes it clear that the vast majority of those Hebrews, whom God redeemed out of Egypt in the Exodus, were unfaithful and disobedient to YHWH, and were punished by God and not permitted to enter into the Promised Land. Therefore, the Mosaic Covenant was made with the "faithful" remnant, i.e. the new generation of Hebrews who did not sin like their fathers did. But even so...eventually, many within this new generation became unfaithful, as the rest of the historical books in the OT reveal.

Show Me the Wire

03-04-2017, 01:43 PM

https://youtu.be/s0-EgjUhRqA

VigorsTheGrey

03-05-2017, 12:24 AM

https://youtu.be/s0-EgjUhRqA

At least this cartoon Horus SHOWS UP in the church to talk with you, UNLIKE your whats-ya-ma-call-it, G_d...Adonai....theName....whatever you guys are calling IT now....You know "Christ" is not really Jesus's last name, is it...? It is Jesus "the Christ" Jesus really didn't have a last name now, did he...? How could he, he didn't have a human father...maybe he used Joseph's last name when he was growing up....

I guess he just told everyone that he was adopted....I wonder when Mary told him that he wasn't like other kid's, that, well, well he WAS DIFFERENT...He was God, but then again Mary being a good Jewish mother and all, prolly didn't go around telling too many other folks that her son was God...now would she...? I mean THAT would be kind of blasphemous don't you think.....?

PaceAdvantage

03-05-2017, 01:37 AM

VigorsTheGrey

03-05-2017, 01:50 AM

https://ia801505.us.archive.org/6/items/in.ernet.dli.2015.530195/2015.530195.canonical-prayer.pdf

VigorsTheGrey

03-05-2017, 02:05 AM

It's always Jews and sometimes Christians that you go after...but mostly Jews...anyway...I guess you endorse other religions like Islam and Hinduism...you never seem to be critical of them...why is that?

You can't find anything with which to make fun of Islam or Hinduism? And it's not like those two religions don't have lots and lots of followers as well...

You really, really, really don't like Jews or the Jewish religion, do you?

There is nothing special about Jews or Christians or Muslims or their monotheistic religion and there is absolutely no valid reason why they should be critical of non-monotheists, but they are...they are human beings, just like the rest of us...the origins of all human religions can be found here on the planet...and yes I am critical of other religions as well, including Islam which I abhor, I am critical of any religion that goes around murdering people in their o so HOLY name, and that includes Communism and Catholicism and Protestantism, and Imperialism and Fascism and Americanism as well....

PaceAdvantage

03-05-2017, 02:40 AM

No, not true. ON HERE, you seem to be most critical and dismissive of Judaism...you've still never addressed why that is...

I don't recall you saying one negative thing about Mohammed...but you've got all the names of God in Judaism down pat...including Adonai...which I find odd.

Why do you obsess on Judaism when there are any number of religions to pick on?

HalvOnHorseracing

03-05-2017, 11:11 AM

The name of the thread should be changed to "Two Atheists and a Lunatic Christian."

Show Me the Wire

03-05-2017, 11:41 AM

The name of the thread should be changed to "Two Atheists and a Lunatic Christian."

:lol::lol::lol: I appreciate a witty insight.

Show Me the Wire

03-05-2017, 11:48 AM

At least this cartoon Horus SHOWS UP in the church to talk with you, UNLIKE your whats-ya-ma-call-it, G_d...Adonai....theName....whatever you guys are calling IT now....You know "Christ" is not really Jesus's last name, is it...? It is Jesus "the Christ" Jesus really didn't have a last name now, did he...? How could he, he didn't have a human father...maybe he used Joseph's last name when he was growing up....

I guess he just told everyone that he was adopted....I wonder when Mary told him that he wasn't like other kid's, that, well, well he WAS DIFFERENT...He was God, but then again Mary being a good Jewish mother and all, prolly didn't go around telling too many other folks that her son was God...now would she...? I mean THAT would be kind of blasphemous don't you think.....?

I assume you didn't like the cartoon. I am like Actor in a way. I want peer reviewed documentation to support claims about the source of origination for specific religions. Something Actor himself does not follow on most of the claims he makes about Jesus.

Thank you for trying to enlighten me about Jesus' last name. I am fully aware that "Christ" is a title, as in Christ Jesus or Jesus the Christ.

boxcar

03-05-2017, 03:31 PM

Thank you for trying to enlighten me about Jesus' last name. I am fully aware that "Christ" is a title, as in Christ Jesus or Jesus the Christ.

But you could have enlightened Vigs with an explanation of what the title "Christ" means and the origin of the term.

Question: "What does Christ mean?"

Answer: To the surprise of some, “Christ” is not Jesus’ last name (surname). “Christ” comes from the Greek word Christos, meaning “anointed one” or “chosen one.” This is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word Mashiach, or “Messiah.” “Jesus” is the Lord’s human name given to Mary by the angel Gabriel (Luke 1:31). “Christ” is His title, signifying Jesus was sent from God to be a King and Deliverer (see Daniel 9:25; Isaiah 32:1). “Jesus Christ” means “Jesus the Messiah” or “Jesus the Anointed One.”

In ancient Israel, when someone was given a position of authority, oil was poured on his head to signify his being set apart for God’s service (e.g., 1 Samuel 10:1). Kings, priests, and prophets were anointed in such fashion. Anointing was a symbolic act to indicate God’s choosing (e.g., 1 Samuel 24:6). Although the literal meaning of anointed refers to the application of oil, it can also refer to one’s consecration by God, even if literal oil is not used (Hebrews 1:9).

https://www.gotquestions.org/what-does-Christ-mean.html

boxcar

03-05-2017, 03:33 PM

:lol::lol::lol: I appreciate a witty insight.

You're confusing depression for wittiness. HOH was having another one of his acute low self-esteem attacks.

Actor

03-05-2017, 04:30 PM

I assume you didn't like the cartoon. I am like Actor in a way. I want peer reviewed documentation to support claims about the source of origination for specific religions. Something Actor himself does not follow on most of the claims he makes about Jesus.What claims have I made about Jesus?

boxcar

03-05-2017, 04:36 PM

What claims have I made about Jesus?

And let another show begin... :popcorn:

Show Me the Wire

03-05-2017, 04:45 PM

What claims have I made about Jesus?

Regarding his existence, Jesus mythicists.

Show Me the Wire

03-05-2017, 04:49 PM

And let another show begin... :popcorn:

There is no show. Mythicisim is not accepted by accredited mainstream historians and/or theologians.

You should know this and when he quoted their works, you could have told him to apply the burden of peer review to his sources, like he applies to you.

boxcar

03-05-2017, 04:59 PM

There is no show. Mythicisim is not accepted by accredited mainstream historians and/or theologians.

You should know this and when he quoted their works, you could have told him to apply the burden of peer review to his sources, like he applies to you.

I went one better than "peer review". I told him to cite just one ancient first century source that even questioned the existence of Jesus or in any way casts doubt on his existence. But what do we find instead with secular ancient sources? We find Jesus' existence everywhere to be presumed if not outright stated.

Actor

03-05-2017, 05:23 PM

But what do we find instead with secular ancient sources? We find Jesus' existence everywhere to be presumed if not outright stated.Definition:

pre•sume ► v. To take for granted as being true in the absence of proof to the contrary.

This is "the argument from ignorance, which claims that a proposition is true because it has not been shown to be false, perhaps the most common logical fallacy in religious apologetics." -- Iron Chariots Wiki
I went one better than "peer review". I told him to cite just one ancient first century source that even questioned the existence of Jesus or in any way casts doubt on his existence.

This is also an attempt to shift the burden of proof which falls upon the one making the claim. It is not up to the skeptic to provide a questioning source, rather it is up to the claimant to provide an affirmative source.

Actor

03-05-2017, 05:27 PM

And let another show begin... :popcorn:About time. The thread has been languishing. :coffee:

By the way, I may be absent for a while. My computer has been intermittently acting up. It's still in warranty but the dealer says I have to send it back to the manufacturer for repair. I figure shipping both ways will take a week and repair will probably take another week (mostly waiting in the queue). So I may be out for two weeks or more.

VigorsTheGrey

03-05-2017, 05:48 PM

Would the following be considered a "peer reviewed" Document...?

https://archive.org/stream/TheManualOfTheHolyCatholicChurchV1#page/n41/mode/1up

VigorsTheGrey

03-05-2017, 05:53 PM

How about this one, is this peer reviewed....?

https://archive.org/stream/historyofinitiat00olivuoft#page/n5/mode/2up

Show Me the Wire

03-05-2017, 05:53 PM

Would the following be considered a "peer reviewed" Document...?

https://archive.org/stream/TheManualOfTheHolyCatholicChurchV1#page/n41/mode/1up

No. Not in the manner being used by Actor.

boxcar

03-05-2017, 05:53 PM

About time. The thread has been languishing. :coffee:

By the way, I may be absent for a while. My computer has been intermittently acting up. It's still in warranty but the dealer says I have to send it back to the manufacturer for repair. I figure shipping both ways will take a week and repair will probably take another week (mostly waiting in the queue). So I may be out for two weeks or more.

I really feel bad for your 'puter. On the other hand, it may welcome a break from you.

At any rate, I hope all goes well for both of you.

Show Me the Wire

03-05-2017, 05:55 PM

How about this one, is this peer reviewed....?

https://archive.org/stream/historyofinitiat00olivuoft#page/n5/mode/2up

Do you know what peer reviewed means?

Show Me the Wire

03-05-2017, 05:58 PM

The name of the thread should be changed to "Two Atheists and a Lunatic Christian."

After reviewing Vigors answer to PA, I suggest you may have to modify the title from two atheists to one atheist and one polytheists or pagan

VigorsTheGrey

03-05-2017, 06:12 PM

https://ia601507.us.archive.org/13/items/in.ernet.dli.2015.62045/2015.62045.The-Secret-Doctrine-Voli-1888.pdf

The Secret Doctrine by Blavatsky, this is a large file but loads easily on a computer...not recommended for download on phone or tablet.

VigorsTheGrey

03-05-2017, 09:58 PM

After reviewing Vigors answer to PA, I suggest you may have to modify the title from two atheists to one atheist and one polytheists or pagan

I'm not an atheist for one cannot be against something that is admitted to have no material basis...

I am not a Pagan either, as I neither worship gods, nor rocks, nor stars...

I am not an agnostic because I really can't say that "I just don't know"...

I am, however, a student of philosophy and religion, including the mystery schools, and arcane and secret knowledge...I enjoy learning about all these areas including Judaism...

HalvOnHorseracing

03-05-2017, 10:51 PM

I'm not an atheist for one cannot be against something that is admitted to have no material basis...

I am not a Pagan either, as I neither worship gods, nor rocks, nor stars...

I am not an agnostic because I really can't say that "I just don't know"...

I am, however, a student of philosophy and religion, including the mystery schools, and arcane and secret knowledge...I enjoy learning about all these areas including Judaism...

An atheist is a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

Now, convince me you don't fit that definition.

thaskalos

03-05-2017, 11:12 PM

An atheist is a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

Now, convince me you don't fit that definition.

To "disbelieve" isn't the same as to "lack belief". To "disbelieve" means that your mind is made up on the matter...whereas to "lack belief" could mean that you just lack sufficient proof in order to "believe".

HalvOnHorseracing

03-05-2017, 11:23 PM

To "disbelieve" isn't the same as to "lack belief". To "disbelieve" means that your mind is made up on the matter...whereas to "lack belief" could mean that you just lack sufficient proof in order to "believe".

Right, but in either case that makes you atheistic. Hence, either test (disbelieve or lacks belief) qualifies you.

dnlgfnk

03-05-2017, 11:38 PM

I'm not an atheist for one cannot be against something that is admitted to have no material basis...

I am not a Pagan either, as I neither worship gods, nor rocks, nor stars...

I am not an agnostic because I really can't say that "I just don't know"...

I am, however, a student of philosophy and religion, including the mystery schools, and arcane and secret knowledge...I enjoy learning about all these areas including Judaism...

The early moderns rejected the qualitative aspects of nature (intentionality, color, odor, taste, etc.) because they weren't quantifiable, attributing them to individual perceptions of things not actually existing in the physical world.

Do you agree?

VigorsTheGrey

03-06-2017, 12:01 AM

An atheist is a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

Now, convince me you don't fit that definition.

In order for me to believe or disbelieve, one MUST first provide a definition of WHAT GOD IS...No one can do this, because it is impossible to render a description of an immateriality....

One might say that god is "spirit"...Now what exactly is "spirit"..?

"Spirit" might as well be "Bncwebecsdugb" because there is no one to one correspondence here at all, to anything in the real world...it does not make sense to be "a" (meaning "not) "Bncwebecsdugb"....

One cannot be an "a-"Bncwebecsdugb"....an "abncwebecsdugb"....it is just nonsense....

Please provide a testable and provable definition of god, and you might make a believer or disbeliever of me....

Light

03-06-2017, 12:32 AM

I am, however, a student of philosophy and religion, including the mystery schools, and arcane and secret knowledge...I enjoy learning about all these areas including Judaism...

You should become a student of yourself. All answers are within. At least the ones that matter directly in your life. External information from books and philosophy is fine and can be enjoyable. But growth and awareness come from within and those books cannot do it for you. We think there isn't much within. But that's because we have his barrier called ego that guards our inner kingdom of Heaven.

LottaKash

03-06-2017, 12:40 AM

I am, however, a student of philosophy and religion, including the mystery schools, and arcane and secret knowledge...I enjoy learning about all these areas including Judaism...

ecclesiates 12: 8-14
8 ¶ Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity. 9 And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs. 10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth. 11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd. 12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

VigorsTheGrey

03-06-2017, 12:47 AM

ecclesiates 12: 8-14
8 ¶ Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity. 9 And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs. 10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth. 11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd. 12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

When you can give me a clear, correct, concise, and complete definition of what God is, then and only then, might I begin to even understand why in the world I should fear such a beast...

thaskalos

03-06-2017, 12:54 AM

Right, but in either case that makes you atheistic. Hence, either test (disbelieve or lacks belief) qualifies you.

There is a widely accepted label called "agnostic"...whereby you are allowed to profess your religious "doubts" without fully denying the existence of a "divine being". From what I've read...the "atheist" proclaims that there is no God...while the "agnostic" declares that he reserves judgement on the matter until sufficient "proof" comes along.

LottaKash

03-06-2017, 12:56 AM

When you can give me a clear, correct, concise, and complete definition of what God is, then and only then, might I begin to even understand why in the world I should fear such a beast...

Proverbs 1:24-33
24 ¶ Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; 25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: 26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; 27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. 28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: 29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: 30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. 31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. 32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. 33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

thaskalos

03-06-2017, 12:58 AM

Proverbs 1:24-33
24 ¶ Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; 25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: 26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; 27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. 28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: 29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: 30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. 31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. 32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. 33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

WHO has "called"...and we've "refused"?

Light

03-06-2017, 01:00 AM

When you can give me a clear, correct, concise, and complete definition of what God is, then and only then, might I begin to even understand why in the world I should fear such a beast...

If you have to fear God then it is not God. The Bible says God is love. So does many who have had NDE's. So does my experience, not based on anything I read or heard. If you haven't figured out the sole purpose for existence is love then you are still in the dark.

VigorsTheGrey

03-06-2017, 01:00 AM

You should become a student of yourself. All answers are within. At least the ones that matter directly in your life. External information from books and philosophy is fine and can be enjoyable. But growth and awareness come from within and those books cannot do it for you. We think there isn't much within. But that's because we have his barrier called ego that guards our inner kingdom of Heaven.

Most of the time I find the material WITHIN to be rather, well, boring, to say the least...besides I have access to libraries and the Internet....thousands of literary, philosophical, scientific, religious, and historical GIANTS to read, study, and learn from....for some, THIS is boring and quite tedious...

...I know many people who have ABSOLUTELY ZERO interest in any of these subjects...many are really quite anti-intellectual, and consider learning something new, to be somewhat, well, suspect....(He's just putting on airs)....

thaskalos

03-06-2017, 01:03 AM

Most of the time I find the material WITHIN to be rather, well, boring, to say the least...besides I have access to libraries and the Internet....thousands of literary, philosophical, scientific, religious, and historical GIANTS to read, study, and learn from....for some, THIS is boring and quite tedious...

...I know many people who have ABSOLUTELY ZERO interest in any of these subjects...many are really quite anti-intellectual, and consider learning something new, to be somewhat, well, suspect....(He's just putting on airs)....

Have you read this?

https://www.amazon.com/Search-Miraculous-P-D-Ouspensky-ebook/dp/B0081KQ14U/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1488780184&sr=1-1

LottaKash

03-06-2017, 01:04 AM

WHO has "called"...and we've "refused"?

I will give you one guess Silly...

thaskalos

03-06-2017, 01:04 AM

I will give you one guess Silly...

I must have missed the "call".

Light

03-06-2017, 01:05 AM

VigorsTheGrey

03-06-2017, 01:18 AM

If you have to fear God then it is not God. The Bible says God is love. So does many who have had NDE's. So does my experience, not based on anything I read or heard. If you haven't figured out the sole purpose for existence is love then you are still in the dark.

Most of us are in search of love, some of us have found it....that someone who makes us feel special and wanted....For some of us the special someone is God....for others, it is Jesus, for you perhaps, that love is inside of you already, and you have no need of someone else...Many turn to god because they have no one else in their lives that loves them...some one that will always be there for them...that looks after them, that BLESSES them....such is the human condition...

LottaKash

03-06-2017, 01:19 AM

I must have missed the "call".

Yep, Good Call...

VigorsTheGrey

03-06-2017, 01:21 AM

So you are saying you are boring to yourself?

Yes.

Light

03-06-2017, 01:35 AM

Most of us are in search of love, some of us have found it....that someone who makes us feel special and wanted....For some of us the special someone is God....for others, it is Jesus, for you perhaps, that love is inside of you already, and you have no need of someone else...Many turn to god because they have no one else in their lives that loves them...some one that will always be there for them...that looks after them, that BLESSES them....such is the human condition...

Yes that is the present human condition. Does not mean there is no more that you are not aware of. There is plenty more.

Light

03-06-2017, 01:37 AM

Yes.

Sorry.

VigorsTheGrey

03-06-2017, 01:48 AM

Sorry.

It is all ok....boredom is INSIDE of all of us...

VigorsTheGrey

03-06-2017, 01:49 AM

Have you read this?

https://www.amazon.com/Search-Miraculous-P-D-Ouspensky-ebook/dp/B0081KQ14U/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1488780184&sr=1-1

Cool. Here's a good site with many audio tapes
https://archive.org/search.php?query=ouspensky

Light

03-06-2017, 01:57 AM

It is all ok....boredom is INSIDE of all of us...

And so is love inside us. Love is not boring. Depends on where you focus your attention.

BTW, have you considered that perhaps the reason you may be bored with yourself is because you limit yourself with preconceived notions of who you think you are and your own potential? Can get a bit boring when you limit yourself.

What if your awareness was expanded? I doubt you would be bored.

VigorsTheGrey

03-06-2017, 02:03 AM

Yes that is the present human condition. Does not mean there is no more that you are not aware of. There is plenty more.

Let's all hope so...after all, it is quite a miracle that we are here at all...

...but at some point, there also must be an end to any "more"....however far-off into the future, there is always a point when "no more"...is right.

VigorsTheGrey

03-06-2017, 02:31 AM

And so is love inside us. Love is not boring. Depends on where you focus your attention.

BTW, have you considered that perhaps the reason you may be bored with yourself is because you limit yourself with preconceived notions of who you think you are and your own potential? Can get a bit boring when you limit yourself.

What if your awareness was expanded? I doubt you would be bored.

When you reach a certain age, you begin to wonder at how little time you have left, and you begin to understand the futility of all action...

My life has been just ONE LONG MOMENT IN TIME interspersed with regular intervals of sleep...and yet that MOMENT is but a cosmic flash, a flicker in the night, and measured against the background of eternity (or reasonably so), a dream...

...Yea, a dream, of a terrible Being untold, sleeping as well...all the while sounding a mighty furious snore, heard by none, at all...

boxcar

03-06-2017, 09:45 AM

It is all ok....boredom is INSIDE of all of us...

Have you ever considered LSD? That could really expand your horizons and awareness.

HalvOnHorseracing

03-06-2017, 10:23 AM

There is a widely accepted label called "agnostic"...whereby you are allowed to profess your religious "doubts" without fully denying the existence of a "divine being". From what I've read...the "atheist" proclaims that there is no God...while the "agnostic" declares that he reserves judgement on the matter until sufficient "proof" comes along.

Of course, Vigors denied that he was either atheist or agnostic. If I understood his logic, it was, how can I not believe in anything that isn't there. Ironically, if that line appeared in a George Orwell book it would have been considered brilliant.

The line between atheist and agnostic is very thin. The difference between believing there is no god and believing "we can't tell if there is a god" is perhaps fodder for a college debate, but still comes down to "I don't believe in a god." In any case, call him what you want, but Vigors doesn't believe in any particular god.

Remember, that this part of the conversation emanated from a humorous post about renaming the thread.

VigorsTheGrey

03-06-2017, 11:17 AM

Of course, Vigors denied that he was either atheist or agnostic. If I understood his logic, it was, how can I not believe in anything that isn't there. Ironically, if that line appeared in a George Orwell book it would have been considered brilliant.

The line between atheist and agnostic is very thin. The difference between believing there is no god and believing "we can't tell if there is a god" is perhaps fodder for a college debate, but still comes down to "I don't believe in a god." In any case, call him what you want, but Vigors doesn't believe in any particular god.

Remember, that this part of the conversation emanated from a humorous post about renaming the thread.

A "thing" is material..."God" is not material..."God" is not a thing...."God" is a non-thing...."God" "is" nothing....You want me to believe in (a) nothing...?
It is impossible to "believe" in (a) nothing...You want me to believe an "is" that isn't, don't you...?

Please prove your "is" that isn't...and please just don't say that "it" "is" that "it" "is"....or "I am that I am"...or some other religio-canard...

Maybe this thread should be called the "You cannot not believe in anything that isn't there"....thread....

Show Me the Wire

03-06-2017, 11:34 AM

The early moderns rejected the qualitative aspects of nature (intentionality, color, odor, taste, etc.) because they weren't quantifiable, attributing them to individual perceptions of things not actually existing in the physical world.

Do you agree?

I wonder if Vigors believes in gravity?

boxcar

03-06-2017, 11:44 AM

A "thing" is material..."God" is not material..."God" is not a thing...."God" is a non-thing...."God" "is" nothing....You want me to believe in (a) nothing...?
It is impossible to "believe" in (a) nothing...You want me to believe an "is" that isn't, don't you...?

Please prove your "is" that isn't...and please just don't say that "it" "is" that "it" "is"....or "I am that I am"...or some other religio-canard...

Maybe this thread should be called the "You cannot not believe in anything that isn't there"....thread....

Who says that a "thing" has to be material? My dictionary gives ten (10)...yes that is 10 definitions for this term. You should bone up on them. Thoughts are not material. Ideas are not material. Time is not material. The laws of logic are not material. The laws of math aren't material. But no one in his right mind believes that these aren't someTHING!

But you are correct that God is not a thing. God is a person.

VigorsTheGrey

03-06-2017, 12:23 PM

Who says that a "thing" has to be material? My dictionary gives ten (10)...yes that is 10 definitions for this term. You should bone up on them. Thoughts are not material. Ideas are not material. Time is not material. The laws of logic are not material. The laws of math aren't material. But no one in his right mind believes that these aren't someTHING!

But you are correct that God is not a thing. God is a person.

Better minds than ours have waded in this morass:

Abstract object (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_object)
Bundle theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundle_theory)
Conceptualism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptualism)
Nominalism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominalism)
Object (philosophy) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_%28philosophy%29)
Philosophy of mathematics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mathematics)
Platonic form (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_form)
Qualia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia)[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_universals#cite_note-18)
Realism (philosophy) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism_%28philosophy%29)
Universal (metaphysics) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_%28metaphysics%29)
Universality (philosophy) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universality_%28philosophy%29)
Constructor theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructor_theory)

VigorsTheGrey

03-06-2017, 12:31 PM

VigorsTheGrey

03-06-2017, 12:46 PM

https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.174211/2015.174211.Anacalypsis-Voli#page/n24/mode/1up

LottaKash

03-06-2017, 12:48 PM

A non-material person, I presume, replete with a non-material beating heart (the heart of Jesus) I suppose...and other such absurdities...

Yikes Vigors, you seem to be locked into this tiny little box..

Heck, even the scientists who may reject any sort of deity, will on the other hand, allude to "dimensions or realms" that are well beyond man's ancient or current ability to comprehend, as we yet know it...

Perhaps if you replaced "spiritually" with "dimensional" it might go a long way in reassessing some of the conclusions of some of the things that you have dismissed or rejected, as simply not possible...And, perhaps that "dimensionality" may have been expressed in a book somewhere...

boxcar

03-06-2017, 01:34 PM

A non-material person, I presume, replete with a non-material beating heart (the heart of Jesus) I suppose...and other such absurdities...

But still a person! God is not an "it" such as what Light's pantheism teaches. God is a person -- with a mind, will and affections -- NOT like man's but nonetheless still mind, will and affections.

thaskalos

03-06-2017, 01:43 PM

IMO...only a fool would describe God as a "person", based on something that he has read in a book. Especially when that book clearly states that "no man has looked at God, and lived".

IMO...whatever we say to describe God can, at best, be only PARTIALLY right.

boxcar

03-06-2017, 01:55 PM

thaskalos

03-06-2017, 01:59 PM

Only a fool would deny that Jesus was God come in the flesh. What was Jesus: An it?

Even Jesus HIMSELF denied that he was "God in the flesh". "Why do you call me GOOD? Only GOD is good!"...he exclaimed to someone who praised him.

VigorsTheGrey

03-06-2017, 02:56 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Heart#/media/File:Batoni_sacred_heart.jpg

The great conceit of Christianity is that it is not Pagan...

VigorsTheGrey

03-06-2017, 03:13 PM

https://jaelspeg.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/jesus-of-naz.jpg

This is your God, the one that created the universe in 6 days and then rested...?
Remember, there is only 1 God, so this MUST be Him, right...?

I suppose He is just reviewing what He wrote...

PaceAdvantage

03-06-2017, 03:18 PM

https://jaelspeg.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/jesus-of-naz.jpg

This is your God, the one that created the universe in 6 days and then rested...?Why the **** do you continue to mock people of faith?

Who the hell are you to be such an asshole? Where exactly do you get off?

Mocking boxcar is one thing...but to throw out these kinds of generalizations and insults to Christians and Jews (primarily...still haven't seen you mock Islam or Mohammed yet) is going over the line.

You need to step back and start acting more adult...accept that there are billions of people in this world with billions of different beliefs and let it end there.

VigorsTheGrey

03-06-2017, 04:06 PM

Why the **** do you continue to mock people of faith?

Who the hell are you to be such an asshole? Where exactly do you get off?

Mocking boxcar is one thing...but to throw out these kinds of generalizations and insults to Christians and Jews (primarily...still haven't seen you mock Islam or Mohammed yet) is going over the line.

You need to step back and start acting more adult...accept that there are billions of people in this world with billions of different beliefs and let it end there.
Me, little ol' me and my pen...? A threat to over 2000 yrs of Christianity and Judaism....I think not....my words cannot possibly alter the faith of the faithful....in fact, it makes them stronger, and affords them the opportunity to reply in their efforts to convert me....I have only presented a picture of what they say they believe in....they believe in the sacred heart of Jesus...they believe that Jesus created the universe, that Jesus wasa Jew who believed (and inspired theTorah)...why is it mockery to present in graphic terms what they believe....? I must have touch a nerve...I could speak also of the absurdities of Islam as well if you prefer...this is after all a thread concerning religion...and with billions of the faithful, maybe a dissenting view might be tolerated....posters can respond for themselves,
Or are you one of those knights that must protect the holy from the profane...my point is that Christianity and Judaism are both pagen through and through, in fact, all human religions are pagen...to maintain otherwise is the classic sign of a religious bigot....it is a false and vicious distinction to draw...and if the monotheists cannot see this...well, go figure...

boxcar

03-06-2017, 05:28 PM

Even Jesus HIMSELF denied that he was "God in the flesh". "Why do you call me GOOD? Only GOD is good!"...he exclaimed to someone who praised him.

No, he didn't! This passage has been discussed numerous times. All Jesus was doing was questioning this self-righteous, covetous rich man's presumption to any man's inherent goodness. This man thought Jesus was merely a "good" man -- a "good" teacher. He had no idea that he was speaking to the Jewish Messiah. Also, Jesus would have contradicted himself several times because in other places he made claim to his deity.

thaskalos

03-06-2017, 05:51 PM

No, he didn't! This passage has been discussed numerous times. All Jesus was doing was questioning this self-righteous, covetous rich man's presumption to any man's inherent goodness. This man thought Jesus was merely a "good" man -- a "good" teacher. He had no idea that he was speaking to the Jewish Messiah. Also, Jesus would have contradicted himself several times because in other places he made claim to his deity.

The truth, of course, is that you have no IDEA what Jesus was doing...regardless of how much you profess that you are attuned to his thinking process. And I defy you to present a single quote in which Jesus claims what you said earlier. That he was "God in the flesh".

boxcar

03-06-2017, 07:14 PM

The truth, of course, is that you have no IDEA what Jesus was doing...regardless of how much you profess that you are attuned to his thinking process. And I defy you to present a single quote in which Jesus claims what you said earlier. That he was "God in the flesh".

Don't get your panties in the wad. I never said Jesus used the formula you stated above.

Secondly, yes, I have a very good idea of what Jesus was doing since the bible teaches the doctrine of Total Depravity, and Jesus himself said that men are evil.

dnlgfnk

03-06-2017, 09:36 PM

I wonder if Vigors believes in gravity?

At least when Actor avoids foundational philosophical questions that may challenge his materialism (e.g., no physical process is determinate; some of our thoughts are determinate; how can thought be a wholly physical process?), he doesn't claim to be interested in philosophy.

dnlgfnk

03-06-2017, 10:39 PM

In order for me to believe or disbelieve, one MUST first provide a definition of WHAT GOD IS...No one can do this, because it is impossible to render a description of an immateriality....

One might say that god is "spirit"...Now what exactly is "spirit"..?

"Spirit" might as well be "Bncwebecsdugb" because there is no one to one correspondence here at all, to anything in the real world...it does not make sense to be "a" (meaning "not) "Bncwebecsdugb"....

One cannot be an "a-"Bncwebecsdugb"....an "abncwebecsdugb"....it is just nonsense....

Please provide a testable and provable definition of god, and you might make a believer or disbeliever of me....

Let's consider your "Bncwebecsdugb"...

The materialist W.V. Quine proposed an "indeterminacy of translation"...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminacy_of_translation

...whereby, for any collection of physical facts, no matter how large, there is nothing about them that entails one specific meaning rather than another. Your improvised word, or any other word, carries no specific, universal meaning in the ink, the type, the shape of the symbols, etc. Such is true of the physical world at large, according to no less than materialist Daniel Dennett, et.al...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminacy_(philosophy)#Indeterminacy_and_consc iousness

...Yet we do exhibit determinate thought in formal thinking... adding, arguing via valid inferences, focusing on my particular argument here in order to respond, etc.

Therefore, how can formal thinking be wholly a physical process?

PaceAdvantage

03-06-2017, 10:49 PM

Me, little ol' me and my pen...? A threat to over 2000 yrs of Christianity and Judaism....I think not....my words cannot possibly alter the faith of the faithful....in fact, it makes them stronger, and affords them the opportunity to reply in their efforts to convert me....I don't give a crap about your pen or 2000 years of whatever. I'm talking about your words, here, on my website. I've had enough of your bullshit and your antagonizing. We have agnostics and atheists on this board who are nowhere near as offensive as you are.

Learn how to communicate with people or get the hell out of here with your cattle prod that you think looks like a pen.

PaceAdvantage

03-06-2017, 10:50 PM

He had no idea that he was speaking to the Jewish Messiah.The vast majority of Jews would disagree with this statement.

VigorsTheGrey

03-07-2017, 12:17 AM

Let's consider your "Bncwebecsdugb"...

The materialist W.V. Quine proposed an "indeterminacy of translation"...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminacy_of_translation

...whereby, for any collection of physical facts, no matter how large, there is nothing about them that entails one specific meaning rather than another. Your improvised word, or any other word, carries no specific, universal meaning in the ink, the type, the shape of the symbols, etc. Such is true of the physical world at large, according to no less than materialist Daniel Dennett, et.al...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminacy_(philosophy)#Indeterminacy_and_consc iousness

...Yet we do exhibit determinate thought in formal thinking... adding, arguing via valid inferences, focusing on my particular argument here in order to respond, etc.

Therefore, how can formal thinking be wholly a physical process?

I'm not sure I understand your question here....Need to break it down without the complex jargon...

In my thinking , thoughts are fully material...they are chemo-electrical phenomenon within a physical and biological brain...thoughts are not immaterial in nature...

VigorsTheGrey

03-07-2017, 12:18 AM

https://libcom.org/files/Fire%20in%20the%20Minds%20of%20Men.pdf

VigorsTheGrey

03-07-2017, 12:30 AM

ok, will do...

boxcar

03-07-2017, 09:33 AM

The vast majority of Jews would disagree with this statement.

That still doesn't change the fact of who Jesus was, who he claimed to be and that he fulfilled numerous OT prophecies that predicted his first advent and predicts his second coming, as well. Truth is not established by a vote of the majority.

boxcar

03-07-2017, 09:46 AM

I'm not sure I understand your question here....Need to break it down without the complex jargon...

In my thinking , thoughts are fully material...they are chemo-electrical phenomenon within a physical and biological brain...thoughts are not immaterial in nature...

Think upon this, then:

‘If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents—the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else’s. But if their thoughts—i.e. of materialism and astronomy—are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It’s like expecting that the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milkjug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset.’

C.S. Lewis (1898–1963), The Business of Heaven, Fount Paperbacks, U.K., p. 97, 1984.

In other words, Mr. Vigors, all your posts, all your many links you've posted are absolutely meaningless; for in your worldview, they can explain absolutely nothing!

Truly, don't you have far better things to do with the very short time you have on this earth than waste that precious time with vain, meaningless babble?

PaceAdvantage

03-07-2017, 01:37 PM

That still doesn't change the fact of who Jesus was, who he claimed to be and that he fulfilled numerous OT prophecies that predicted his first advent and predicts his second coming, as well. Truth is not established by a vote of the majority.I would think Jews get to claim who their Messiah is...not you.

thaskalos

03-07-2017, 02:18 PM

I would think Jews get to claim who their Messiah is...not you.

Jesus was born Jewish...and he lived among the Jews for the entirety of his life. Consequently...if we are searching for the "Truth about Jesus"...should we go to the Jews...or should we travel thousands of miles away, to consult with people who never met him?

If we wanted to learn about Plato...should we go to the Chinese?

Show Me the Wire

03-07-2017, 02:51 PM

https://youtu.be/n1AoahtgqGs

Show Me the Wire

03-07-2017, 03:06 PM

We Are Jewish People Who Believe In Jesus
and we want to tell everyone about Jesus the Messiah

http://jewsforjesus.org/

PaceAdvantage

03-07-2017, 03:09 PM

http://jewsforjesus.org/Yes, that's why I wrote "vast majority of Jews" instead of all Jews...:lol:

Show Me the Wire

03-07-2017, 03:11 PM

Yes, that's why I wrote "vast majority of Jews" instead of all Jews...:lol:

I understood you. I was replying to thask's question about asking Jews. My fault for not being clear about the post I responded to.

thaskalos

03-07-2017, 03:14 PM

https://youtu.be/n1AoahtgqGs

Rabbi Schneider was right. That was very "advanced". :ThmbUp:

thaskalos

03-07-2017, 03:15 PM

I understood you. I was replying to thask's question about asking Jews. My fault for not being clear about the post I responded to.

Believe it or not...there is also a group out there calling itself "Muslims for Jesus". SO?

Show Me the Wire

03-07-2017, 03:19 PM

Believe it or not...there is also a group out there calling itself "Muslims for Jesus". SO?

They are not Jews. You asked about Jews and their take on Jesus. Seems there is a difference of opinion, between Jews, just as it was in Jesus' day.

VigorsTheGrey

03-07-2017, 03:19 PM

Think upon this, then:

‘If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents—the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else’s. But if their thoughts—i.e. of materialism and astronomy—are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It’s like expecting that the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milkjug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset.’

C.S. Lewis (1898–1963), The Business of Heaven, Fount Paperbacks, U.K., p. 97, 1984.

In other words, Mr. Vigors, all your posts, all your many links you've posted are absolutely meaningless; for in your worldview, they can explain absolutely nothing!

Truly, don't you have far better things to do with the very short time you have on this earth than waste that precious time with vain, meaningless babble?
I share my soul because I have a need to express my ideas...I know you don't always find me pleasant.....but I do indeed NEED your ears...thank you for being there for me...

Show Me the Wire

03-07-2017, 03:20 PM

I share my soul because I have a need to express my ideas...I know you don't always find me pleasant.....but I do indeed NEED your ears...thank you for being there for me...

How can you have something or believe in something that is not material, a soul? You speak with fork tongue.

thaskalos

03-07-2017, 03:21 PM

They are not Jews. You asked about Jews and their take on Jesus. Seems there is a difference of opinion, between Jews, just as it was in Jesus' day.

The Jews have a "divided opinion" about Jesus?

If you were to guess...what percentage of the Jews would you say accept Jesus as their "true Messiah"? Or should we embrace Boxcar's philosophy, that "the Truth isn't a popularity contest"?

Show Me the Wire

03-07-2017, 03:29 PM

The Jews have a "divided opinion" about Jesus?

If you were to guess...what percentage of the Jews would you say accept Jesus as their "true Messiah". Or should we embrace Boxcar's philosophy, that "the Truth isn't a popularity contest"?

I have no idea. Jesus' earliest followers were Jews. I have no personal knowledge of how many Jews followed Jesus and how many didn't during Apostolic times.

I have no idea how many Jews converted to Christianity over the centuries. So it would be impossible for me to say.

thaskalos

03-07-2017, 03:34 PM

I have no idea. Jesus' earliest followers were Jews. I have no personal knowledge of how many Jews followed Jesus and how many didn't during Apostolic times.

I have no idea how many Jews converted to Christianity over the centuries. So it would be impossible for me to say.

Isn't it odd to you that the vast majority of the Jews have rejected Jesus as a "Messiah"...while over a billion others have developed a supposedly intimate "long-distance" relationship with him as the "Son of God"?

Would it make sense if the Chinese were proclaiming Socrates as the "World's Wisest Man"...while the Greeks, who LIVED with him...considered him only "ordinary"?

boxcar

03-07-2017, 03:35 PM

The Jews have a "divided opinion" about Jesus?

If you were to guess...what percentage of the Jews would you say accept Jesus as their "true Messiah"? Or should we embrace Boxcar's philosophy, that "the Truth isn't a popularity contest"?

Depends on we have define the term "Jew". Under the Old Covenant, a Jew was one who physically descended, ultimately, from Abraham and was circumcised. But under the New Covenant, the definition has expanded to Abraham's spiritual descendants, i.e. those who have the faith of Abraham. Under the New Covenant, a "Jew" is one who is not necessarily circumcised in his flesh but is circumcised in his heart. If we go by this latter definition, I'd say that the percentage of "Jews" in the world is much larger than you think. But in either case...God is saving and has been saving a [b]remnant[b] of mankind from the very beginning.

VigorsTheGrey

03-07-2017, 03:36 PM

How can you have something or believe in something that is not material, a soul? You speak with fork tongue.

I use the word "soul" here figuratively, not literally, I know that is somewhat of a cop-out, but hey, monotheists do it all the time regarding scripture...when some passage makes no sense, like the universe being created in 6 days...that's figuratively speaking, the verse REALLY MEANS.....this or that....so go figure...what's good for the goose ought to be good for the gander, no....you don't really expect humans to be perfectly consistent, do you....? Nothing in the vast cosmos is....including your imperfect deity, who creates AND destroys the works of his own "hands" apparently never satisfied with what He has made....

Show Me the Wire

03-07-2017, 03:43 PM

Isn't it odd to you that the vast majority of the Jews have rejected Jesus as a "Messiah"...while over a billion others have developed a supposedly intimate "long-distance" relationship with him as the "Son of God"?

Would it make sense if the Chinese were proclaiming Socrates as the "World's Wisest Man"...while the Greeks, who LIVED with him...considered him only "ordinary"?

Do you currently know any living Jews who lived with Jesus? So I don't get your allusion to Greeks and Socrates?

Also, there really is no reliable evidence Socrates ever lived. He left no writings and there is a dearth of independent information concerning his existence. The major source of Socratic existence is Plato. Plato may have invented him as a character to flesh out his Dialogue.

Another source is Xenophon who, in his plays, describes Socrates very different than the wise person described by Plato.

Show Me the Wire

03-07-2017, 03:50 PM

I use the word "soul" here figuratively, not literally, I know that is somewhat of a cop-out, but hey, monotheists do it all the time regarding scripture...when some passage makes no sense, like the universe being created in 6 days...that's figuratively speaking, the verse REALLY MEANS.....this or that....so go figure...what's good for the goose ought to be good for the gander, no....you don't really expect humans to be perfectly consistent, do you....? Nothing in the vast cosmos is....including your imperfect deity, who creates AND destroys the works of his own "hands" apparently never satisfied with what He has made....

I would you expect you to be consistent in the basis of your position and not allude to non-material aspects literally and figuratively. You are right it is a cop-out. As if your life, which is a pure accident, has some esoteric meaning.

thaskalos

03-07-2017, 03:57 PM

Do you currently know any living Jews who lived with Jesus? So I don't get your allusion to Greeks and Socrates?

Also, there really is no reliable evidence Socrates ever lived. He left no writings and there is a dearth of independent information concerning his existence. The major source of Socratic existence is Plato. Plato may have invented him as a character to flesh out his dialogue.

Another source is Xenophon who, in his plays, describes Socrates very different than the wise person described by Plato.

That's odd. You entertain the idea that Socrates may have never existed...but you are not willing to consider the same thought about Jesus. Why is that? Is there more historical proof to back up the existence of Jesus than there is to prove the existence of Socrates?

The ancient Stoics (Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius...etc.), whose existence has been historically PROVEN...have spoken often about Socrates. But, surprisingly... NO ancient source of ANY historical note has ever left any written proof to support the existence of the "Son of God".

Show Me the Wire

03-07-2017, 03:59 PM

That's odd. You entertain the idea that Socrates may have never existed...but you are not willing to consider the same thought about Jesus. Why is that? Is there more historical proof to back up the existence of Jesus than there is to prove the existence of Socrates?

The ancient Stoics (Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius...etc.), whose existence has been historically PROVEN...have spoken often about Socrates. But, surprisingly... NO ancient source of ANY historical note has ever left any written proof to support the existence of the "Son of God".

I readily admit my belief is based on faith based on the teachings of the Apostles and my own spiritual experiences.

Show Me the Wire

03-07-2017, 04:03 PM

The ancient Stoics (Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius...etc.), whose existence has been historically PROVEN...have spoken often about Socrates. But, surprisingly... NO ancient source of ANY historical note has ever left any written proof to support the existence of the "Son of God".

Are they contemporaries of Socrates?

boxcar

03-07-2017, 04:06 PM

I share my soul because I have a need to express my ideas...I know you don't always find me pleasant.....but I do indeed NEED your ears...thank you for being there for me...

But don't you understand that in a naturalistic/materialistic worldview that says there is no purpose or intentionality to the universe -- or in Lewis' terms that the universe is just a big accident and so all that has evolved in this universe, including organic life, is every bit as much an accident and, therefore, incapable of rational explanation? Accidents can't explain anything! I love Lewis' analogy: A milkjug that fell over on the floor and splashed milk everywhere is an accident and those splashes are not capable of explaining the accident or how the jug itself came into existence or how anyone lamenting the spill can be explained! If the universe came into existence by blind, irrational forces, then everything in the universe is equally as blind and irrational -- including all your posts! Your posts explain nothing because nothing is capable of being explained in such a universe of blind, irrational forces.

Show Me the Wire

03-07-2017, 04:09 PM

The essentials of Epictetus' thought derive from the early or foundational period of Stoicism, from the third-century writings of Zeno of Citium, Cleanthes, and Chrysippus. Treatises he mentions by title include Chrysippus' On Choice, On Impulse, and On the Possibles, and he also mentions reading in works by Zeno, Cleanthes, Antipater, and Archedemus. Extant reports and fragments of these and other Stoic works offer many points of congruence with what we find in him.

It may still be the case that he accepts influence from other currents in philosophy, or that he develops some ideas on his own. The clearest instance of such influence concerns Plato, for Epictetus draws much inspiration from the Socrates depicted in Plato's shorter dialogues. emphasis added
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epictetus/

Strange you give credence to writings several hundred years later, to prove Socrates' existence which are based on Plato's dialogue for the existence of a man who left no writings and is not widely attested to exist by contemporaries.

Such a wise man should have been applauded and attested by his contemporaries. Yet strangely he is not.

thaskalos

03-07-2017, 04:10 PM

I readily admit my belief is based on faith based on the teachings of the Apostles and my own spiritual experiences.

That's RIGHT! Our religious beliefs are based on FAITH. That's why we shouldn't play "My-God-is-better-than-your-God" games with one another...because NO ONE'S religious beliefs are based on "FACT". If only the Boxcars of this world could understand that.

Show Me the Wire

03-07-2017, 04:15 PM

That's RIGHT! Our religious beliefs are based on FAITH. That's why we shouldn't play "My-God-is-better-than-your-God" games with one another...because NO ONE'S religious beliefs are based on "FACT". If only the Boxcars of this world could understand that.

Have I ever quarreled with the above assertion?

thaskalos

03-07-2017, 04:22 PM

emphasis added
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epictetus/

Strange you give credence to writings several hundred years based on Plato's dialogue for the existence of a man who left no writings and is not widely attested to exist by contemporaries.

Such a wise man should have been applauded and attested by his contemporaries. Yet strangely he is not.

There is a distinct difference between the two of us, SMTW.

I have no problem at all entertaining the notion that Socrates never existed. It is entirely possible that he was a figment of Plato's fertile imagination. But, if such a case could be made against the existence of Socrates...then it could be made even more persuadingly against the existence of Jesus. And I've got a hunch that you just wouldn't be able to entertain such a notion...regardless of how "possible" it may be.

Show Me the Wire

03-07-2017, 04:26 PM

There is a distinct difference between the two of us, SMTW.

I have no problem at all entertaining the notion that Socrates never existed. It is entirely possible that he was a figment of Plato's fertile imagination. But, if such a case could be made against the existence of Socrates...then it could be made even more persuadingly against the existence of Jesus. And I've got a hunch that you just wouldn't be able to entertain such a notion...regardless of how "possible" it may be.

How do you know that I never entertained that notion? And that I resolved it in favor of belief.

thaskalos

03-07-2017, 04:31 PM

What I believe is that Socrates existed...but not in the "idyllic" form that Plato presented him. And I believe that Jesus existed as well...but, again, not in the "perfect" form that the scriptures illustrate.

It's normal for the students to venerate the great teachers.

thaskalos

03-07-2017, 04:33 PM

How do you know that I never entertained that notion? And that I resolved it in favor of belief.

Is there a doubt in your mind that your religious beliefs might be unfounded? Or does your "faith" cover all?

VigorsTheGrey

03-07-2017, 04:37 PM

I would you expect you to be consistent in the basis of your position and not allude to non-material aspects literally and figuratively. You are right it is a cop-out. As if your life, which is a pure accident, has some esoteric meaning.

The difference between myself and yourself is that I might have a position of MY OWN, which I may choose to defend, sacrifice, or alter at will, depending upon my peculiar proclivities at any given time....you, have NO positions of your own, only those of Loyola....I am free to change my position upon the arrival of new evidence....your position is a red banner, a scarlet robe....so of course, you prize consistency, but better termed Constancy.....and have made of THAT....a fetish.

I have freed myself of fetishes both material and abstract.... I alone am "the Free One"

I do not make a fetish of "the One" or Perfection and transform myself into an obelisk, I do not transfigure myself into a copy of "the immovable one"..... I do not "ape" my ideal.....

Show Me the Wire

03-07-2017, 04:42 PM

Is there a doubt in your mind that your religious beliefs might be unfounded? Or does your "faith" cover all?

Yes for many years. I was at the least agnostic and at most an atheist.

Show Me the Wire

03-07-2017, 04:44 PM

The difference between myself and yourself is that I might have a position of MY OWN, which I may choose to defend, sacrifice, or alter at will, depending upon my peculiar proclivities at any given time....you, have NO positions of your own, only those of Loyola....I am free to change my position upon the arrival of new evidence....your position is a red banner, a scarlet robe....so of course, you prize consistency, but better termed Constancy.....and have made of THAT....a fetish.

I have freed myself of fetishes both material and abstract.... I alone am "the Free One"

I do not make a fetish of "the One" or Perfection and transform myself into an obelisk, I do not transfigure myself into a copy of "the immovable one"..... I do not "ape" my ideal.....

Good for you, exercising your free will.

boxcar

03-07-2017, 04:45 PM

That's odd. You entertain the idea that Socrates may have never existed...but you are not willing to consider the same thought about Jesus. Why is that? Is there more historical proof to back up the existence of Jesus than there is to prove the existence of Socrates?

The ancient Stoics (Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius...etc.), whose existence has been historically PROVEN...have spoken often about Socrates. But, surprisingly... NO ancient source of ANY historical note has ever left any written proof to support the existence of the "Son of God".

Huh? Shirely U. Jest! The Gospels were written by people (call them "reporters" if you will) who "interviewed" first century eyewitnesses to Jesus' life, death, burial and resurrection. As I recently told Actor, there are at least four disciples who wrote the NT who actually saw the risen Christ: Peter, James, John and Paul.

thaskalos

03-07-2017, 04:49 PM

Yes for many years. I was at the least agnostic and at most an atheist.

You are evading the real question that I asked. Is there a doubt in your mind...NOW.

And, if not....then what caused that "doubt" to go way? Your "faith" that your religious beliefs were ultimately RIGHT?

If there is a real possibility that Jesus's existence was manufactured, or somehow "exaggerated", then...how does that possibility get removed from our mind...as if it's an IMPOSSIBILITY?

thaskalos

03-07-2017, 04:51 PM

Huh? Shirely U. Jest! The Gospels were written by people (call them "reporters" if you will) who "interviewed" first century eyewitnesses to Jesus' life, death, burial and resurrection. As I recently told Actor, there are at least four disciples who wrote the NT who actually saw the risen Christ: Peter, James, John and Paul.

Nonsense. NO ONE knows who wrote the gospels...or whom those anonymous writers "interviewed".

You are totally incapable of entering into a mature conversation...that's why I am talking to SMTW.

Show Me the Wire

03-07-2017, 04:58 PM

You are evading the real question that I asked. Is there a doubt in your mind...NOW.

And, if not....then what caused that "doubt" to go way? Your "faith" that your religious beliefs were ultimately RIGHT?

If there is a real possibility that Jesus's existence was manufactured, or somehow "exaggerated", then...how does that possibility get removed from our mind...as if it's an IMPOSSIBILITY?

I don't believe I am evading your question. I addressed the above subject, somewhat, in the previous religious thread.

I entertained the doubts, as I progressed in my formal education and lost my faith for about 20 years. What caused the doubt to go away was personal spiritual experiences.

The answer is faith overcomes doubt.

thaskalos

03-07-2017, 05:15 PM

I don't believe I am evading your question. I addressed the above subject, somewhat, in the previous religious thread.

I entertained the doubts, as I progressed in my formal education and lost my faith for about 20 years. What caused the doubt to go away was personal spiritual experiences.

The answer is faith overcomes doubt.

I think that many people have "spiritual experiences". I've had them...and I don't consider myself "unique" in any way. But the human mind is a wondrous thing...and it's capable of all sorts of mental "creations". Just look at the world that it creates for us as we sleep...a world that appears so vivid and real in our dream state. Can we ever be sure that our "spiritual experiences" could be fully trusted?

"To doubt is the greatest insult to the Divinity", your signature says...and I couldn't disagree more. To me..."doubting" is the main function of the reasoning powers which separate us from the other animals.

Show Me the Wire

03-07-2017, 05:18 PM

I think that many people have "spiritual experiences". I've had them...and I don't consider myself "unique" in any way. But the human mind is a wondrous thing...and it's capable of all sorts of mental "creations". Just look at the world that it creates for us as we sleep...a world that appears so vivid and real in our dream state. Can we ever be sure that our "spiritual experiences" could be fully trusted?

"To doubt is the greatest insult to the Divinity", your signature says...and I couldn't disagree more. To me..."doubting" is the main function of the reasoning powers which separate us from the other animals.

Yes, I quoted the mystic Padre Pio, who worked miracles and suffered the stigmata.

thaskalos

03-07-2017, 05:25 PM

Yes, I quoted the mystic Padre Pio, who worked miracles and suffered the stigmata.

If we are to doubt the existence of Jesus and Socrates...I think it's only fair to also cast a suspicious eye on Padre Pio's "stigmata".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmata

Show Me the Wire

03-07-2017, 05:29 PM

If we are to doubt the existence of Jesus and Socrates...I think it's only fair to also cast a suspicious eye on Padre Pio's "stigmata".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmata

Many did, even in the Church. People doubt.

thaskalos

03-07-2017, 05:31 PM

Many did, even in the Church. People doubt.

It's necessary to doubt, especially in hugely-profitable enterprises...like politics and religion.

Show Me the Wire

03-07-2017, 05:40 PM

It's necessary to doubt, especially in hugely-profitable enterprises...like politics and religion.

To be critical and doubt is necessary for many things. However, faith is faith and if you doubt you cannot have faith or the hope of faith.

thaskalos

03-07-2017, 05:46 PM

To be critical and doubt is necessary for many things. However, faith is faith and if you doubt you cannot have faith or the hope of faith.

In religion...if you have no "doubt", then you could easily be conned into believing the wrong things. There are all sorts of different religions out there...and their followers number in the HUNDREDS of MILLIONS. ALL of them profess to be RIGHT, because they all have "faith" in their beliefs. But they could all easily be WRONG.

Show Me the Wire

03-07-2017, 05:53 PM

In religion...if you have no "doubt", then you could easily be conned into believing the wrong things. There are all sorts of different religions out there...and their followers number in the HUNDREDS of MILLIONS. ALL of them profess to be RIGHT, because they all have "faith" in their beliefs. But they could all easily be WRONG.

So you are advocating being agnostic as the correct path?

boxcar

03-07-2017, 05:55 PM

Nonsense. NO ONE knows who wrote the gospels...or whom those anonymous writers "interviewed".

You are totally incapable of entering into a mature conversation...that's why I am talking to SMTW.

You're in denial. First of all I didn't limit the four direct eyewitnesses to just writers of the gospels. I said NT. Paul identifies himself as being the writer of all the epistles he wrote. John identified himself (in his gospel he identifies himself as the "apostle whom Jesus loved) James wrote an epistle and Peter wrote two epistles. All these four were direct eyewitnesses to the risen Christ.

A very careful study of Mark will reveal a very high likelihood that Mark got most of his material from his close friend Peter. (Just as an aside, Mark never talks negatively of Peter in his Gospel!)

Luke traveled with Paul and got to meet all the apostles. After all, Luke accompanied Paul on his Jerusalem trips. And Luke makes it clear in his gospel that he investigated things carefully by talking with eyewitnesses.

Matthew is the only real question mark; but many scholars think Matthew was Levi the Jewish tax collector whom Jesus called unto himself.

When you couple all these facts with how all the NT is in complete harmony with itself, only a willful rebel could posit that Jesus never existed, or that he never died, or that his miracles never really took place or that He did not rise from his tomb. The historical accuracy of the NT is truly beyond question when examined HONESTLY!

thaskalos

03-07-2017, 06:07 PM

So you are advocating being agnostic as the correct path?

No. I am advocating searching for the "TRUTH"...regardless of where our search may take us. Why should I "believe" that this "Truth" is the exclusive property of the Christian...or the Muslim...or the Jew...or the Buddhist...or the Hinduist...or the Taoist? IMO...the "Truth" can only be discovered by INDIVIDUALS...not by GROUPS. You embark on a solitary journey WITHIN...with only your SELF as a guiding lamp. Because, if this "Truth" doesn't reside WITHIN...then you'll never recognize it "out there"...even if you stumble over it.

That's where my "belief" stands right now...based on my journey so far. But the journey ain't over...

thaskalos

03-07-2017, 06:08 PM

Show Me the Wire

03-07-2017, 06:10 PM

No. I am advocating searching for the "TRUTH"...regardless of where our search may take us. Why should I "believe" that this "Truth" is the exclusive property of the Christian...or the Muslim...or the Jew...or the Buddhist...or the Hinduist...or the Taoist? IMO...the "Truth" can only be discovered by INDIVIDUALS...not by GROUPS. You embark on a solitary journey WITHIN...with only your SELF as a guiding lamp. Because, if this "Truth" doesn't reside WITHIN...then you'll never recognize it "out there"...even if you stumble over it.

That's where my "belief" stands right now...based on my journey so far. But the journey ain't over...

Does not the self deceive? If the self deceives how can it be the guiding light?