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View Full Version : Monmouth Park to cut dates


MonmouthParkJoe
02-13-2017, 07:26 PM
Saw this coming a mile away. Looks like they are planning 50 days down from 57 last year. Maybe it will help with field size, maybe it won't. Not good



http://www.app.com/story/sports/horses/2017/02/13/monmouth-park-redice-racing-days/97851666/

onefast99
02-14-2017, 11:45 AM
This is called living on the edge. Parx will once again offer purses that MP cannot go near, Belmont and Saratoga will as well. The turf will be used a lot more this upcoming season as well and that means some cheaper horses running on the carpet. MP will need VLTs to survive, no vote is needed on this type of machine as it falls under the NJ Lottery Commission. The future is in jeopardy and Sports Wagering is a must as well as opening another OTW and not in a sleepy little town like Hillsborough. Time to have a good plan for 2018, and not just another band aid like the million a day meet in 2010. MP also needs a true marketing plan, this is 2017 not 2007!

Redboard
02-14-2017, 01:19 PM
Maybe when we get a new Governor in there, that might help.

SuperPickle
02-14-2017, 01:53 PM
I've seen every operating trick in the book and I don't any that solve Monmouth's problem.

Btw... my hunch is the saw stall requests and asked for less dates. They know what's coming. Navarro is like 10-12% of their horse population. If he doesn't show up that's a killer.

I just don't see an angle that saves them. You've got three tracks within 150 miles that have slots and bigger purses. Not to mention Delaware, Penn Nat and Charles Town.

I refuse to believe the casinos will ever let them get slots and honestly its a moot point because the state would never let them keep enough of the money to make purses high enough to bring back the horse population. New Jersey has a massive pension deficit. There's zero chance of the state giving up enough of a revenue share to REALLY help the horsemen. After the state got theres followed by the casino operators the purse impact would be small.

On top of it you've got land that is massively valuable. Probably too valuable to run horses on for a couple months of the year. It's a resort/seasoal location so you really have minimal wiggle room on moving dates. Nights? But lights are a seven figure investment.

And on top of everything the state breeding program is already dead. I don't think they produced 100 foals in 2016. That may sound minor but it used to be 300-500 back in the day. And all 300-500 were bred to run at Monmouth. So you had a built in foundation of horses. Now that's gone.

The Meadowlands may survive because the state can't really put anything else there but Monmouth appears terminal.

cj
02-14-2017, 05:31 PM
I just don't see an angle that saves them. You've got three tracks within 150 miles that have slots and bigger purses. Not to mention Delaware, Penn Nat and Charles Town.



Just FYI, Delaware and Penn are also within 150 miles (at least I think Penn is, Delaware definitely)

SuperPickle
02-14-2017, 06:25 PM
Just FYI, Delaware and Penn are also within 150 miles (at least I think Penn is, Delaware definitely)

My point was they have smaller purses than Monmouth (at least I think. Penn has to be close.)

The other three have larger. I think NWX1 at Parx are high 40's maybe even 50. Today they can a PA bred NWX1 for 51. Laurel a little less. I think Monmouth was around 36. So even if slots or something gave you a 20-35% push you're still only about even.

MonmouthParkJoe
02-14-2017, 07:49 PM
I've seen every operating trick in the book and I don't any that solve Monmouth's problem.

Btw... my hunch is the saw stall requests and asked for less dates. They know what's coming. Navarro is like 10-12% of their horse population. If he doesn't show up that's a killer.

I just don't see an angle that saves them. You've got three tracks within 150 miles that have slots and bigger purses. Not to mention Delaware, Penn Nat and Charles Town.

I refuse to believe the casinos will ever let them get slots and honestly its a moot point because the state would never let them keep enough of the money to make purses high enough to bring back the horse population. New Jersey has a massive pension deficit. There's zero chance of the state giving up enough of a revenue share to REALLY help the horsemen. After the state got theres followed by the casino operators the purse impact would be small.

On top of it you've got land that is massively valuable. Probably too valuable to run horses on for a couple months of the year. It's a resort/seasoal location so you really have minimal wiggle room on moving dates. Nights? But lights are a seven figure investment.

And on top of everything the state breeding program is already dead. I don't think they produced 100 foals in 2016. That may sound minor but it used to be 300-500 back in the day. And all 300-500 were bred to run at Monmouth. So you had a built in foundation of horses. Now that's gone.

The Meadowlands may survive because the state can't really put anything else there but Monmouth appears terminal.

I couldnt agree more. Night racing would be an option, position itself as a tbred option at a time that is dominated by harness and maybe catch some of the west coast crowd with their export. Realistically their on track handle isnt huge and lets face it we leave in a simo world now, at least 98% of tracks do. That investment for the lights is huge and with so few days now I am not sure it would be a good move.

That being said, I like to be on track with a beer in hand at 11:30am when they open. I would hate night racing and doubt I would go much. It would kill everything I love about it.

cj
02-14-2017, 08:05 PM
My opinion, if night racing were so great lots of tracks would be doing it. You aren't going to get many new bettors, but you will lose a lot of old ones. We also already have a pretty big test market for night racing. The results aren't very encouraging.

thaskalos
02-14-2017, 08:26 PM
My opinion, if night racing were so great lots of tracks would be doing it. You aren't going to get many new bettors, but you will lose a lot of old ones. We also already have a pretty big test market for night racing. The results aren't very encouraging.

Having no thoroughbred night racing on Mondays and Tuesdays makes no sense at all to me.

MonmouthParkJoe
02-14-2017, 08:33 PM
My opinion, if night racing were so great lots of tracks would be doing it. You aren't going to get many new bettors, but you will lose a lot of old ones. We also already have a pretty big test market for night racing. The results aren't very encouraging.

Well that's just it. You will alienate alot of the core fans that come out during the day. Most people are dining in the area at night or on the boardwalk. I cant see it working.

I know they are trying alot now with different events every weekend and while it does get people on track they dont bet. Small fields and the quality is certainly an issue.

Seems like a slow death at this point, unless something drastic happens.

EMD4ME
02-14-2017, 08:40 PM
Having no thoroughbred night racing on Mondays and Tuesdays makes no sense at all to me.

I totally agree. There is a market for it. People are home from work or retirees/pros are hungry.

I'd try running an A summer time track on a monday or tuesday night.

It's so annoying watching so few tracks in the winter and then BAM! 11 or more tracks are running in the summer on a saturday.

Why can't 1 or 2 of them run on a monday or tuesday NIGHT? (Besides the mountain-which is smart to do so).

I used to love those years where Sam Houston would run at 5 PM sunday or Penn ran on a non Wed-Sat night.

EMD4ME
02-14-2017, 08:46 PM
Well that's just it. You will alienate alot of the core fans that come out during the day. Most people are dining in the area at night or on the boardwalk. I cant see it working.

I know they are trying alot now with different events every weekend and while it does get people on track they dont bet. Small fields and the quality is certainly an issue.

Seems like a slow death at this point, unless something drastic happens.

Tell MP to do something drastic. 1 race ON TRACK only with 3% takeout. Make every race a 10% takeout, ON TRACK ONLY.

Partner with local businesses. Example: Local ABC restaurant. Come to MP, wager $200, get a $100 dinner voucher for ABC restaurant (tracked by a player's card). Split the cost with the restaurant. Have the restaurant market the track. Menu items include the MP Superfecta 4 course meal etc. Have fine track artistry all over the walls etc.

MARKET, MARKET, MARKET. Hire a 19 year old, I'm serious, and put them in charge of social media. Believe me, that 19 year old will do a better job than the 94 year old "Marketing/Teller" who may be in charge.

I hate this as much as you MPJoe. I grew up on many trips to MP. Bob Weems: Theyyyyyy'rrrrrrre offffffffff (echo Theyyyyyyyyy'rrrrrre offffff)

The 4th race, an exacta race at 6F, will be coming up in 23 Minutes ta Post Taaaam.

ReplayRandall
02-14-2017, 08:49 PM
Doesn't Lone Star park run at night? If so, how have they been doing lately? Hard to believe this track hosted the BC in 2004....

proximity
02-14-2017, 08:53 PM
horsemen generally don't like night racing. it would probably be a last resort.

EMD4ME
02-14-2017, 08:54 PM
Doesn't Lone Star park run at night? If so, how have they been doing lately? Hard to believe this track hosted the BC in 2004....

Agreed but Texas racing is a complete and utter DISGUSTING corrupt joke.

Meaning, the state senator has been accussed of corruption.

Also, the ADW ban in Texas is an utter JOKE!

Here is a state where they HAVE ILLEGAL RACETRACKS. Not illegal places that take bets on real racetracks BUT ILLEGAL RACETRACKS in forrests.

They LOVE HORSE racing but are not allowed to bet. It's sick.

EMD4ME
02-14-2017, 08:55 PM
http://lubbockonline.com/filed-online/2013-12-02/officials-50-illegal-horse-racetracks-texas


http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/texas-officials-concerned-over-rise-of-illegal-racetracks-in-state/


Finally, about the corruption:

http://www.statesman.com/news/political-fight-threatens-shutter-texas-racetracks/LufJD5vulitrXHQCdjWi5M/

cj
02-14-2017, 09:54 PM
Having no thoroughbred night racing on Mondays and Tuesdays makes no sense at all to me.

Mountaineer used to have it, and I guess will soon. There are a few diehards out there that bet it but the handle doesn't lie. This time of the year it is probably just too cold most places to run at night, and those places it is warm don't have lights.

cj
02-14-2017, 09:55 PM
I totally agree. There is a market for it. People are home from work or retirees/pros are hungry.

I'd try running an A summer time track on a monday or tuesday night.



Presque Isle does this, or has done it. Nobody bets.

alhattab
02-14-2017, 10:42 PM
I've posted this notion of a European type model before, and I still think it is the model of the future especially in the East. Run selected weekends during the summer. I'd say 30 days total. Keep the barn area open and charge stall rent unless you average x number of starts per horse during the meet i.e., if 24 horses and minimum is 3 starts then 72 total starts for the barn regardless of which horses run.

Memorial Day weekend: Even before the food trucks Memorial Day was always the traditional opener, and is a good track weekend because the beach weather can be iffy but there are a ton of people down the Shore and they're ready to party. So there's 3-4 days.

Fathers Day: Come back 3 weeks later for Father's Day, another big weekend. There's another 3 days and, conveniently, attractive timing for the horses that ran Memorial Day weekend.

Weekend before or after the 4th depending on timing of the Holiday.

Haskell Day/weekend around end of July.

Travers Day and/or Labor Day (increasingly a dead weekend)

End of Sept for an end of summer bash or something like that.

The trick to me is you need to claim the dates and keep them consistent every year, and need to spend some $ making sure the public is aware of the dates.

EMD4ME
02-15-2017, 06:59 AM
Presque Isle does this, or has done it. Nobody bets.

I wasn't clear enough. I meant an "A level" track. Not just any track :lol: .

But you're right. No lights, no chance to see if it will work..

castaway01
02-15-2017, 08:57 AM
My opinion, if night racing were so great lots of tracks would be doing it. You aren't going to get many new bettors, but you will lose a lot of old ones. We also already have a pretty big test market for night racing. The results aren't very encouraging.

Not only that, but NJ itself already had Garden State, Atlantic City, and Meadowlands running thoroughbreds at night. Two are gone and the Meadowlands just runs a few daytime turf cards now. It doesn't work.

I used to think there was a way to save Monmouth, but Super Pickle's first post in this thread summed up the issues well. Too much competition from tracks with higher slot-fueled purses, too few horses to make interesting races (common problem since the breeding numbers plummeted in the US), and the land being worth way more for other uses all argue against the track being saved. It's a shame because if you go there, it's certainly one of the places that does racing right. I can't say, "Oh, their customer service was awful, no wonder they closed." But the customers don't seem to be interested (except on Haskell day). It's similar to how no one is at Parx except on PA Derby day---except Parx has its percentage of literally billions in slot revenue to prop it up and Monmouth doesn't.

Bluto Blutarsky
02-15-2017, 09:47 AM
Somebody with the brains and the balls needs to look closely at how the NJTHA operates as MP racing days dwindle down to now 50. When NJTHA board meets there is never a written agenda and there are no meeting minutes taken-that is by design. What exactly are the full time salaries being paid to Executive Director Michael Musto, Benefits Coordinator Bill Hunter, President/Blue Grotto Maitre D John Forbes and Bob Kulina?? It is a mystery....

The vanity project that is the trackside restaurant "Blue Grotto"- when it is losing money- who is going to subsidize it's existence to keep it open?

Hey Fast- when was the last time the horsemen's "advisor" Dennis Drazin predictions came true on ANYTHING?

MonmouthParkJoe
02-15-2017, 11:06 AM
Tell MP to do something drastic. 1 race ON TRACK only with 3% takeout. Make every race a 10% takeout, ON TRACK ONLY.

Partner with local businesses. Example: Local ABC restaurant. Come to MP, wager $200, get a $100 dinner voucher for ABC restaurant (tracked by a player's card). Split the cost with the restaurant. Have the restaurant market the track. Menu items include the MP Superfecta 4 course meal etc. Have fine track artistry all over the walls etc.

MARKET, MARKET, MARKET. Hire a 19 year old, I'm serious, and put them in charge of social media. Believe me, that 19 year old will do a better job than the 94 year old "Marketing/Teller" who may be in charge.

I hate this as much as you MPJoe. I grew up on many trips to MP. Bob Weems: Theyyyyyy'rrrrrrre offffffffff (echo Theyyyyyyyyy'rrrrrre offffff)

The 4th race, an exacta race at 6F, will be coming up in 23 Minutes ta Post Taaaam.

I have always believed in trying to give a break for on track wagers, and we have the means to do it. The thing that kind of makes me think it wouldnt work at monmouth is the low on track handle compared to all source. I just looked at opening day last year which is a pretty good draw normally. All source was $4,621,073 with 13% of that being on track ($619,769). Attendance was 11,416 (yes know these figures can be inflated), but the per cap would be like $54 a person or about $5 per race. I would say that most fans there wagering have no idea what takeout is let alone be sensitive to it. With the shift in wagering to ADWs over the years, esp for big players, I am not sure how much of a difference it would make.

They do some partnering with local restaurants, like a free appetizer with a program, but not to the extent of a $100. Even if you bet $200 on track and assume the blend is 20%, they are making like $40 off you.

The problem in this industry, like so many others, is if you want good people that can make a difference you have to pay them what they are worth. With MP bleeding money esp after the last meet, I can see why they are hesitant. That being said, you have to spend money to make money.

SuperPickle
02-15-2017, 03:53 PM
Presque Isle does this, or has done it. Nobody bets.

EMD is out of his lane again. But in 80's and 90's when simulcasting first started EVERY initial simulcasting director at every track tried the idea of "hey no one races at blank day at blank time. Let's race and we'll have monopoly." Go back and look at some of the schedules from that era. You had all sorts of tracks trying twilight racing, night racing, starting before other tracks, starting after.

What's been proven in the last 20 years is it always better to race on the weekends and fight it out among 20 other tracks when the pool of money is 30 times what's available on Mondays and Tuesdays versus trying to build a following. Tracks like Oaklawn and Tampa and even EMD have proven if you run when everyone else does but you have a good product, with good fields run at the right post times you can make a lot more money than trying to create a following during the week. It's far easier to get the money bet into your product versus finding money for your product.

Btw... every time I post this some replies "but Parx races Monday and handles a ton, but Fairmont races Tuesdays..." That's different. They've been running those days for 30 years. They put the time in and created a following. It takes a LOT of time.

NTamm1215
02-16-2017, 12:02 AM
EMD is out of his lane again. But in 80's and 90's when simulcasting first started EVERY initial simulcasting director at every track tried the idea of "hey no one races at blank day at blank time. Let's race and we'll have monopoly." Go back and look at some of the schedules from that era. You had all sorts of tracks trying twilight racing, night racing, starting before other tracks, starting after.

What's been proven in the last 20 years is it always better to race on the weekends and fight it out among 20 other tracks when the pool of money is 30 times what's available on Mondays and Tuesdays versus trying to build a following. Tracks like Oaklawn and Tampa and even EMD have proven if you run when everyone else does but you have a good product, with good fields run at the right post times you can make a lot more money than trying to create a following during the week. It's far easier to get the money bet into your product versus finding money for your product.

Btw... every time I post this some replies "but Parx races Monday and handles a ton, but Fairmont races Tuesdays..." That's different. They've been running those days for 30 years. They put the time in and created a following. It takes a LOT of time.

Obviously it's about what money exists in the marketplace. Anyone who thinks that night racing is the panacea of thoroughbred racing is simply wrong. Very wrong. It is great for on-track business, but no one has seen any real correlation between the influx of people for a night card and the creation of real fans.

Where a changing schedule can help is with a lower volume track. Sam Houston ran a meet with Sunday afternoon racing in 2014 and averaged roughly 800k in handle. They added Tuesdays the following year and averaged at least 1.5m. They were better off being a big fish in a small pond than a guppy in the ocean.

Oaklawn and Tampa are interesting cases in terms of simulcast handle. Tampa's post times are worked to perfection to maximize handle and they do very well. Oaklawn management has eschewed any post time manipulation to add handle, clearly fearing they'll lose their devoted on-track crowd and it unquestionably costs them handle.

onefast99
02-16-2017, 04:30 PM
I've seen every operating trick in the book and I don't any that solve Monmouth's problem.

Btw... my hunch is the saw stall requests and asked for less dates. They know what's coming. Navarro is like 10-12% of their horse population. If he doesn't show up that's a killer.

I just don't see an angle that saves them. You've got three tracks within 150 miles that have slots and bigger purses. Not to mention Delaware, Penn Nat and Charles Town.

I refuse to believe the casinos will ever let them get slots and honestly its a moot point because the state would never let them keep enough of the money to make purses high enough to bring back the horse population. New Jersey has a massive pension deficit. There's zero chance of the state giving up enough of a revenue share to REALLY help the horsemen. After the state got theres followed by the casino operators the purse impact would be small.

On top of it you've got land that is massively valuable. Probably too valuable to run horses on for a couple months of the year. It's a resort/seasoal location so you really have minimal wiggle room on moving dates. Nights? But lights are a seven figure investment.

And on top of everything the state breeding program is already dead. I don't think they produced 100 foals in 2016. That may sound minor but it used to be 300-500 back in the day. And all 300-500 were bred to run at Monmouth. So you had a built in foundation of horses. Now that's gone.

The Meadowlands may survive because the state can't really put anything else there but Monmouth appears terminal.I will answer each one of your bold points:
1)Navarro isn't 10-12% of the horse population on grounds.
2)Delaware is sucking wind, Penn runs cheaper purses and is a $375 roundtrip hike from MP by way of horse transport.
3)The proposed VLTs are designed as a revenue source for the racetracks, no one is discussing pension monies paid back from this source.
4)The area where MP is located isn't considered a true second home shore town like Ortley Beach, Lavalette, Belmar, Seaside and Pt. Pleasant. The racing dates would never be moved it is a summer time track and has been that way since 1946!

onefast99
02-16-2017, 04:37 PM
Somebody with the brains and the balls needs to look closely at how the NJTHA operates as MP racing days dwindle down to now 50. When NJTHA board meets there is never a written agenda and there are no meeting minutes taken-that is by design. What exactly are the full time salaries being paid to Executive Director Michael Musto, Benefits Coordinator Bill Hunter, President/Blue Grotto Maitre D John Forbes and Bob Kulina?? It is a mystery....

The vanity project that is the trackside restaurant "Blue Grotto"- when it is losing money- who is going to subsidize it's existence to keep it open?

Hey Fast- when was the last time the horsemen's "advisor" Dennis Drazin predictions came true on ANYTHING?
It is a private company they do not have to divulge the incomes of those running the track, they bid on it fair and square. Without them the facility would have shut down. I'm not campaigning for any of them but lets look at who took this mess on and is trying to make it viable again. The Governor pulled the plug on racing in NJ, didn't you hear the round of applause he got when American Pharoah won the Haskell. The boos were deafening.

dilanesp
02-16-2017, 05:19 PM
Obviously it's about what money exists in the marketplace. Anyone who thinks that night racing is the panacea of thoroughbred racing is simply wrong. Very wrong. It is great for on-track business, but no one has seen any real correlation between the influx of people for a night card and the creation of real fans.

I will say this. Lights are not that expensive to install. There's no reason why every major track should not at least have them so they have the option of running a night card.

SuperPickle
02-16-2017, 06:19 PM
I will answer each one of your bold points:
1)Navarro isn't 10-12% of the horse population on grounds.
2)Delaware is sucking wind, Penn runs cheaper purses and is a $375 roundtrip hike from MP by way of horse transport.
3)The proposed VLTs are designed as a revenue source for the racetracks, no one is discussing pension monies paid back from this source.
4)The area where MP is located isn't considered a true second home shore town like Ortley Beach, Lavalette, Belmar, Seaside and Pt. Pleasant. The racing dates would never be moved it is a summer time track and has been that way since 1946!

You're one of those guys who won't give up. It's admirable but not especially intelligent.

Two points you're kind of playing games with...

1. Your number gaming. It's a PA message board speciality. Tell me what percentage of the backstretch Navarro is if I'm wrong. I know he had a 100 horses there last year and they had less than 1,300. So that's what 8-9%? Are you being the 1-2% off guy? Because that's not a good guy to be. Btw... I was asking about 2017. If he shows up with 100 horses he'll be 10-12% this meet. He could be 15%.

3. Come on. You're not that naive. They're not talking about raiding the VLT money so it won't happen? Are you serious? They didn't talk about it at NYRA either and as we speak Cuomo is pushing to cap the slot revenue for NYRA and push some of it into budget gaps. Surely you can't be dumb enough to believe it ain't happening in NJ. With a state with huge financial problems and casinos and other special interests groups spending HUGE money in Trenton.

I don't understand how horse racing politics works. You need jobs to get politicians on your side. That's why you need a breeding program which NJ doesn't have anymore. You've got to tie 10,000 to 20,000 horse racing jobs back to the slots. NJ can't do that. All the people making money at Monmouth are out of staters. The owners, trainers, jockey, etc. There's not way politicians go "I want to give this out of state horseman a bailout while seniors can't pay their property taxes."

I want to live in your Bambi World.

alhattab
02-16-2017, 08:23 PM
You're one of those guys who won't give up. It's admirable but not especially intelligent.

Two points you're kind of playing games with...

1. Your number gaming. It's a PA message board speciality. Tell me what percentage of the backstretch Navarro is if I'm wrong. I know he had a 100 horses there last year and they had less than 1,300. So that's what 8-9%? Are you being the 1-2% off guy? Because that's not a good guy to be. Btw... I was asking about 2017. If he shows up with 100 horses he'll be 10-12% this meet. He could be 15%.

3. Come on. You're not that naive. They're not talking about raiding the VLT money so it won't happen? Are you serious? They didn't talk about it at NYRA either and as we speak Cuomo is pushing to cap the slot revenue for NYRA and push some of it into budget gaps. Surely you can't be dumb enough to believe it ain't happening in NJ. With a state with huge financial problems and casinos and other special interests groups spending HUGE money in Trenton.

I don't understand how horse racing politics works. You need jobs to get politicians on your side. That's why you need a breeding program which NJ doesn't have anymore. You've got to tie 10,000 to 20,000 horse racing jobs back to the slots. NJ can't do that. All the people making money at Monmouth are out of staters. The owners, trainers, jockey, etc. There's not way politicians go "I want to give this out of state horseman a bailout while seniors can't pay their property taxes."

I want to live in your Bambi World.

The Rutgers study from a few years ago claimed 7,000 direct jobs (tracks, breeding and training) and 13,000 total jobs. I knew the thoroughbred breeding was a disaster, but thought the Standardbreds held up. They didn't. In my view, any public policy basis for supporting racing revolves around open space. We spend a lot of money in NJ to maintain open space rather than develop it. A vibrant racing industry would certainly help- it may not be the cheapest way but it has the added benefit of (mostly low paying) jobs. The open space issue is a real one in the country's most densely populated state.

Re the out of Towner issue, the Oaklawn model with support coming from instant racing works ok. Not much breeding going on in Arkansas I don't think. The NJ model is really weird- you can gamble in AC and you can gamble at home, but you can't go to a commercial establishment where people gamble on horses to
gamble on games you can play at home!

SuperPickle
02-16-2017, 08:46 PM
The Rutgers study from a few years ago claimed 7,000 direct jobs (tracks, breeding and training) and 13,000 total jobs. I knew the thoroughbred breeding was a disaster, but thought the Standardbreds held up. They didn't. In my view, any public policy basis for supporting racing revolves around open space. We spend a lot of money in NJ to maintain open space rather than develop it. A vibrant racing industry would certainly help- it may not be the cheapest way but it has the added benefit of (mostly low paying) jobs. The open space issue is a real one in the country's most densely populated state.

Re the out of Towner issue, the Oaklawn model with support coming from instant racing works ok. Not much breeding going on in Arkansas I don't think. The NJ model is really weird- you can gamble in AC and you can gamble at home, but you can't go to a commercial establishment where people gamble on horses to
gamble on games you can play at home!


The part people don't factor in is the foal crop. You've lost 50-60% of the foals in 20 years. They're aren't enough horses.

So the limited horse available will go to the track with the highest bidder. The highest bidder usually has slots.

Where guys like Onefast are wrong is a couple places...

1. Everyone else already has slots. So getting slots simply at best evens the playing field. It pulls NJ even with competitors. There's a strong argument it simply postpones Monmouth closing versus saving it. Delaware is in a death spiral and it has slots. Same with Prarie Meadows.

2. NJ has massive budget issues. Property taxes are huge. Pensions are massively underfunded. The idea politicians would tap millions in new funding and divert into horse racing versus the dozens of places their voters wanted relief isn't realistic.

3. We had a referendum on casinos. It lost in a landslide. Don't you think politicians see that as a canary in the cold mine? That NJ voters don't care about horse racing?

4. Racing in NJ has been going down hill for 20-30 years. They've been trying to get slots since Delaware got them in the early 90's. Don't you think if Trenton gave a crap about racing they'd do SOMETHING in that time?

You'd think after 20-30 years of Trenton saying no that intelligent people would get the message that help is not coming? Or to put it another way if Monmouth Park had a future that generated any sort of $$$$ don't you think someone other than the horsemen would be running it? Isn't the proof in the pudding the fact no one wants it?

alhattab
02-16-2017, 10:15 PM
The part people don't factor in is the foal crop. You've lost 50-60% of the foals in 20 years. They're aren't enough horses.

So the limited horse available will go to the track with the highest bidder. The highest bidder usually has slots.

Where guys like Onefast are wrong is a couple places...

1. Everyone else already has slots. So getting slots simply at best evens the playing field. It pulls NJ even with competitors. There's a strong argument it simply postpones Monmouth closing versus saving it. Delaware is in a death spiral and it has slots. Same with Prarie Meadows.

2. NJ has massive budget issues. Property taxes are huge. Pensions are massively underfunded. The idea politicians would tap millions in new funding and divert into horse racing versus the dozens of places their voters wanted relief isn't realistic.

3. We had a referendum on casinos. It lost in a landslide. Don't you think politicians see that as a canary in the cold mine? That NJ voters don't care about horse racing?

4. Racing in NJ has been going down hill for 20-30 years. They've been trying to get slots since Delaware got them in the early 90's. Don't you think if Trenton gave a crap about racing they'd do SOMETHING in that time?

You'd think after 20-30 years of Trenton saying no that intelligent people would get the message that help is not coming? Or to put it another way if Monmouth Park had a future that generated any sort of $$$$ don't you think someone other than the horsemen would be running it? Isn't the proof in the pudding the fact no one wants it?

Unfortunately, I generally agree. Hard to argue in light of the lack of state/government action. Monmouth's best chance is out of its control- Delaware dies and the PA government blows up or severely curtails the subsidy. The current NJ governor is no help but not sure others will be either. Hopefully they are. Otherwise Monmouth would have to go to a very short meet or run 15-20 days over several weekends.

onefast99
02-17-2017, 10:57 AM
You're one of those guys who won't give up. It's admirable but not especially intelligent.

Two points you're kind of playing games with...

1. Your number gaming. It's a PA message board speciality. Tell me what percentage of the backstretch Navarro is if I'm wrong. I know he had a 100 horses there last year and they had less than 1,300. So that's what 8-9%? Are you being the 1-2% off guy? Because that's not a good guy to be. Btw... I was asking about 2017. If he shows up with 100 horses he'll be 10-12% this meet. He could be 15%.

3. Come on. You're not that naive. They're not talking about raiding the VLT money so it won't happen? Are you serious? They didn't talk about it at NYRA either and as we speak Cuomo is pushing to cap the slot revenue for NYRA and push some of it into budget gaps. Surely you can't be dumb enough to believe it ain't happening in NJ. With a state with huge financial problems and casinos and other special interests groups spending HUGE money in Trenton.

I don't understand how horse racing politics works. You need jobs to get politicians on your side. That's why you need a breeding program which NJ doesn't have anymore. You've got to tie 10,000 to 20,000 horse racing jobs back to the slots. NJ can't do that. All the people making money at Monmouth are out of staters. The owners, trainers, jockey, etc. There's not way politicians go "I want to give this out of state horseman a bailout while seniors can't pay their property taxes."

I want to live in your Bambi World.
Here is a simple response to your continued ignorance on what is happening in the state of NJ horse racing wise. You have no idea what is being worked on within the industry. You continue to go after any forum member who don't agree with your views. You do have a few admirers and based on that you are on top of the world for a few moments, enjoy it!

MonmouthParkJoe
02-17-2017, 11:13 AM
From what I understand, F&B will be taken in house this year. That is a step in the right direction :)

Long live MP!

biggestal99
02-17-2017, 11:26 AM
More bad news. Soon to be weekends only.

Maybe new governor will revitize the industry.

Old one doesn't care anymore.

Allan

onefast99
02-17-2017, 11:36 AM
More bad news. Soon to be weekends only.

Maybe new governor will revitize the industry.

Old one doesn't care anymore.

Allan
Governor Christie made it very clear the racing industry cannot have anymore handouts, no more AC monies or state funding. They need to stand on their own. In the same breath he then gave Atlantic City more concessions as well as a bailout of the then 9th wonder of the world the Revell. :bang:

SuperPickle
02-17-2017, 09:03 PM
[/B]Here is a simple response to your continued ignorance on what is happening in the state of NJ horse racing wise. You have no idea what is being worked on within the industry. You continue to go after any forum member who don't agree with your views. You do have a few admirers and based on that you are on top of the world for a few moments, enjoy it!

The funny part is you frame this like you're the intelligent one and I'm the uniformed, ignorant one. That's adorable.

I'm basing my analysis on what's been executed in NJ during the last 30 years and the current political climate and financial needs. All of my analysis is based on facts and past performance.

Your analysis is based on "there's a bunch of guys in a room over there working on it." I don't deny that. I'm trying to explain to you that those guys have been in that room since the mid-90's and they've never done a thing.

NJ racing is essentially an 0-22 maiden and I'm making the point its most likely going to be 0-23 and your the guy telling everyone 23rd is the charm because you know something.

Which one is us is ignoring reality?

Btw... you've been posting on this forum that the cavalry is coming for a few years now and you've been wrong. I would hope you would have the critical thinking to go "maybe this guy is right." Apparently not.

onefast99
02-17-2017, 10:00 PM
The funny part is you frame this like you're the intelligent one and I'm the uniformed, ignorant one. That's adorable.

I'm basing my analysis on what's been executed in NJ during the last 30 years and the current political climate and financial needs. All of my analysis is based on facts and past performance.

Your analysis is based on "there's a bunch of guys in a room over there working on it." I don't deny that. I'm trying to explain to you that those guys have been in that room since the mid-90's and they've never done a thing.

NJ racing is essentially an 0-22 maiden and I'm making the point its most likely going to be 0-23 and your the guy telling everyone 23rd is the charm because you know something.

Which one is us is ignoring reality?

Btw... you've been posting on this forum that the cavalry is coming for a few years now and you've been wrong. I would hope you would have the critical thinking to go "maybe this guy is right." Apparently not.Until Monmouth closes for good I will continue to post and raise your blood pressure a notch at a time.