"Half a loaf": Rescind and Re-write

[Teach]

“Half a loaf is better than none,” my colleague said. It’s 1974. I was then a member of a six-person teachers negotiating team that was engaged in collective bargaining with representatives of our town’s school committee. We had resolved most of the issues, with the exception of one. That one issue was class-size in our elementary schools. The contract had stipulated that elementary-school classes could have up to a maximum of 25 children. Our collective bargaining team were seeking to lower that figure to 20.

Well, we were at loggerheads with the school committee’s designees. We had suggested that if the town were willing to hire five assistant teachers to work in different elementary-school classrooms that would go a long way to alleviating the problem. The school committee would have none of it. They stated that as things stood they were already exceeding budget guidelines.

Moreover, we wanted to get the contract issue resolved before the start of the school year that was less than two weeks away. We subsequently held a meeting in our teachers’ association office. That’s when the suggestion to accept “half a loaf” came up.

Well, as I shift gears, with regard to the current travel ban stay that has been recently handed down by the 9th Circuit, I believe POTUS should consider the “half a loaf” approach. In fact, in my view, it wouldn’t even be a “half a loaf”.

This travel ban issue has become a cause celebre. There are other equally important issues that need to be addressed, e.g., relations with Russia, China, etc.

As I watched CNN last evening (I believe it was suggested by Professor Alan Dershowitz), I heard the idea of rescinding the current travel ban EO and replacing it with one less all-encompassing. I believe it makes a lot of sense.

Yet, the Trump administration could try to fast-track the issue by filing an emergency application with Supreme Court seeking a stay of the restraining order. This is a court battle that the federal government has no assurances of winning. In fact, with the current 4-to-4 split on the Supreme Court, it appears that a stalemate would be quite likely. That would let the Court of Appeals stay stand. Of course, the Supreme Court could decide to send it back down to the district court level; that would further delay the proceedings. It’s like going back to square #1.

A related element to all of this is the confirmation of Justice Neil Gorsuch to the High Court bench. With all the political and judicial ramifications that surround this travel ban issue, I would have to believe there would be no rush on the part of Democratic Party Senate members to confirm Justice Gorsuch. Particularly in light of the delays associated with Justice Merrick Garland’s appointment by the Obama administration.

If POTUS’s paramount objective in signing this 7-country travel ban was to protect the citizens of this country from acts of terrorism, the suggestion to rescind and re-write makes sense.

Oh, as far as our teachers’ collective bargaining negotiations over 40 years ago, we decided on the “half a loaf” approach. In the end, the contract was revised to lower the number, albeit ever so slightly, from 25 students per elementary-school classroom to 23. We fully understood that there are times you just don’t get everything you want.

[Tom]

Wonder why there is no student's union?
Isn't education all about the student, not the teacher?

Seems to me the most important people should be organized and making demands, not the other way around.

[Teach]

Tom -

When we have large class sizes, it is very difficult to give students the kinds of individual attention that you'd like to, In fact, some students in large classes, despite the best efforts of teachers, can "slip through the cracks".

When teachers seek lower class sizes, it is not in their interests; it's in the interests of their students.

[DSB]

Maybe if the cost of education was less (see teacher salaries and pensions), we could afford more teachers and lower the class sizes.

Work for you teachers out there?

Thought not.

[Clocker]

When we have large class sizes, it is very difficult to give students the kinds of individual attention that you'd like to, In fact, some students in large classes, despite the best efforts of teachers, can "slip through the cracks".



This is nonsense. I went to Catholic elementary and high schools where the standard class size was 30. There was plenty of personal attention for all students, and discipline, and I know for a fact that I got a better education than the vast majority of people that went to public schools. I got out of grade school with better reading and writing skills than the majority of high school grads.

The difference was that the teachers were dedicated and focused, and they didn't spend all their time worrying about benefits or unions or political correctness or other issues. Twenty students in a class? What a bunch of snowflakes.

And the "Board of Education" was an item that some of the teachers carried with them to enforce discipline as needed.

P.S. The idea that this has any relation to national immigration policy is also total nonsense. The issue there is not compromise, it is knowing the law and the courts (not always the same thing) and competently writing an order that will do the job and pass muster.

[Greyfox]

This is nonsense. I went to Catholic elementary and high schools where the standard class size was 30. There was plenty of personal attention for all students, and discipline, and I know for a fact that I got a better education than the vast majority of people that went to public schools. I got out of grade school with better reading and writing skills than the majority of high school grads.

Unless you also attended Public schools, I don't know how you could conclude that you got a better education in a Catholic school.
There are very good teachers in Public schools too.
The fact is, in any school, the cream rises.
Clearly, you are a smart guy and would have also likely done very well in Public schools.
Bright children learn in spite of the teachers quite often.
A combination of brightness + motivated attitude = success in either Catholic or Public schools. It's just that simple.

[AndyC]

Maybe if the cost of education was less (see teacher salaries and pensions), we could afford more teachers and lower the class sizes.

Work for you teachers out there?

Thought not.

Actually the cost of education has less to do with the teacher's salaries and pensions than it does the administrator's salaries and pensions. The bureaucracy of education is growing at an enormous rate.

[Clocker]

Unless you also attended Public schools, I don't know how you could conclude that you got a better education in a Catholic school.

I come from a large family, and my younger brothers, who are just as intelligent as I am, went to public schools. While the schools were in solid middle class suburbs, I know from talking to them about their school experiences and from their level of reading and writing ability that they did not get as good an education as I did.

I formed the same conclusions from a wide variety of work experiences since. In any case, I have never heard anyone ever try to claim that Catholic school students were deprived because of excessive class sizes.

[Greyfox]

I come from a large family, and my younger brothers, who are just as intelligent as I am, went to public schools.

Maybe they are just as intelligent as you. Maybe not.
It doesn't matter. Cream rises.

[boxcar]

“Half a loaf is better than none,” my colleague said. It’s 1974. I was then a member of a six-person teachers negotiating team that was engaged in collective bargaining with representatives of our town’s school committee. We had resolved most of the issues, with the exception of one. That one issue was class-size in our elementary schools. The contract had stipulated that elementary-school classes could have up to a maximum of 25 children. Our collective bargaining team were seeking to lower that figure to 20.

Well, we were at loggerheads with the school committee’s designees. We had suggested that if the town were willing to hire five assistant teachers to work in different elementary-school classrooms that would go a long way to alleviating the problem. The school committee would have none of it. They stated that as things stood they were already exceeding budget guidelines.

Moreover, we wanted to get the contract issue resolved before the start of the school year that was less than two weeks away. We subsequently held a meeting in our teachers’ association office. That’s when the suggestion to accept “half a loaf” came up.

Well, as I shift gears, with regard to the current travel ban stay that has been recently handed down by the 9th Circuit, I believe POTUS should consider the “half a loaf” approach. In fact, in my view, it wouldn’t even be a “half a loaf”.

This travel ban issue has become a cause celebre. There are other equally important issues that need to be addressed, e.g., relations with Russia, China, etc.

As I watched CNN last evening (I believe it was suggested by Professor Alan Dershowitz), I heard the idea of rescinding the current travel ban EO and replacing it with one less all-encompassing. I believe it makes a lot of sense.

Yet, the Trump administration could try to fast-track the issue by filing an emergency application with Supreme Court seeking a stay of the restraining order. This is a court battle that the federal government has no assurances of winning. In fact, with the current 4-to-4 split on the Supreme Court, it appears that a stalemate would be quite likely. That would let the Court of Appeals stay stand. Of course, the Supreme Court could decide to send it back down to the district court level; that would further delay the proceedings. It’s like going back to square #1.

A related element to all of this is the confirmation of Justice Neil Gorsuch to the High Court bench. With all the political and judicial ramifications that surround this travel ban issue, I would have to believe there would be no rush on the part of Democratic Party Senate members to confirm Justice Gorsuch. Particularly in light of the delays associated with Justice Merrick Garland’s appointment by the Obama administration.

If POTUS’s paramount objective in signing this 7-country travel ban was to protect the citizens of this country from acts of terrorism, the suggestion to rescind and re-write makes sense.

Oh, as far as our teachers’ collective bargaining negotiations over 40 years ago, we decided on the “half a loaf” approach. In the end, the contract was revised to lower the number, albeit ever so slightly, from 25 students per elementary-school classroom to 23. We fully understood that there are times you just don’t get everything you want.

Teach, EDUCATE yourself! Read FS 8 U.S.C. 1182(f) that deals with the President's sole discretionary power to limit or regulate entry into the U.S. by aliens or any CLASS of aliens whenever HE -- HE (did I say HE?) believes such entry would be detrimental to the U.S.

This statute, by the way, has been on the books since 1952 and has been used by several previous presidents.

Nothing has to be written. All this is needed is for the judges to rule on the merits of the law, which they did not.

[woodtoo]

Tom -

When we have large class sizes, it is very difficult to give students the kinds of individual attention that you'd like to, In fact, some students in large classes, despite the best efforts of teachers, can "slip through the cracks".

When teachers seek lower class sizes, it is not in their interests; it's in the interests of their students.
A dear friend of mine is a teachers assistant and spends all her time coddling
one Syrian refugee student under ten whom doesn't speak a word of English.

[DSB]

I'm from NJ.

It's all out of control here.

[Clocker]

Maybe they are just as intelligent as you. Maybe not.
It doesn't matter. Cream rises.

I expressed an opinion, which almost by definition cannot be proven. So I see no point arguing about it. It is my opinion based on my experience.

Based also on my limited personal experience, I have never seen or heard any criticism or evidence to show that the typically larger class sizes in Catholic schools has a detrimental effect on student development. Which was my whole point to begin with.

It is also my opinion that class size is grossly over-emphasized by teacher unions, and it is way down the list of problems faced by public schools.

[DSB]

Actually the cost of education has less to do with the teacher's salaries and pensions than it does the administrator's salaries and pensions. The bureaucracy of education is growing at an enormous rate.

sorry. meant to respond to this post.

[Teach]

Clocker –

With regard to the private parochial Catholic elementary and high school you attended, I’m sure you got a good education.

While growing up in Boston, I had a good friend who attended B.C. High (Boston College High School). Edward (everyone called him “Teddy”) and I would often share stories about our high school experiences.

Well, the school “Teddy” attended, B.C. High, was a private parochial Catholic school in which you needed to pass an entrance exam in order to be admitted. There were also tuition costs. The school, by the way, was an all-boys school.

“Teddy” would tell me that it was rare that anyone ever got out of line. No one ever hassled the brothers or lay teachers. There was a built in sense of self-discipline. There was a sense of family honor (being on the honor roll) and a sense of family shame if you got out of line and had to be disciplined.

Further, “Teddy” had to wear a sport coat and tie to school every day. There were penalties for violations of the dress code. One of the main things that “Teddy” impressed upon me was that discipline was strict and expectations were high.

On the other hand, the Boston public high school I attended had to accept everyone. No one could be turned away. There was no winnowing out of the student body, such as with entrance exams. There were no tuition costs (I’m sure some of the students in my high school, though they were bright enough, couldn’t afford the tuition at a private school). There was no dress code. Some of the kids in my school couldn’t even afford decent clothing. Some wore the same clothing virtually every day.

And yes, some of the teachers had discipline issues. If I remember, class sizes were usually fairly large, not the 30 students per class that you cited, but certainly in the 25 to 28 students per-class range. My point here is that class-size in a private school, though large (with its built-in self-discipline) can easily be contrasted with large class-size public-school classrooms where the students are more heterogeneous and self-discipline may be lacking.

Further, I sensed that some of the students in my classes really didn’t want to be there. I believe that’s a far cry from most parochial school where I understand that most students are self-motivated; they also have parental support.

In summation, as originally stated, I’m sure you got a good education at the Catholic parochial school you attended. Frankly, I believe I got a good education at the public high school I attended. I’ve always contended that education was a 50-50 proposition. The student and teacher must meet somewhere in the middle. As a teacher, I presented the opportunities for success, my student needed to meet me halfway to achieve that success through their preparation and determination.

[AndyC]

I'm from NJ.

It's all out of control here.

I'll see your NJ and raise you a California.

[Greyfox]

Based also on my limited personal experience, I have never seen or heard any criticism or evidence to show that the typically larger class sizes in Catholic schools has a detrimental effect on student development. Which was my whole point to begin with.



I'm fairly certain that there have been numerous studies into optimal class sizes and also the relationship between class size and student achievement.
For example http://www.centerforpubliceducation.org/Main-Menu/Organizing-a-school/Class-size-and-student-achievement-At-a-glance/Class-size-and-student-achievement-Research-review.html

Certainly there may be different optimum numbers for different subjects.
For example, some introductory University Classes often had 500 students because a lecture model was used.
With today's computers there is a tremendous opportunity for young minds to do a lot of "self guided researching" on their own and they may not need to be in a classroom at all or even have a teacher present.
One of the benefits of schools, Catholic or Public, happens outside the curriculum.
It's called "socialization." Kids in home schooling don't get that to the same extent.

[Tom]

What Trump should do is have his new AG arrest the judge who issued the stay and charge him with obstruction justice. The judge had no right to issue the ruling he did and the case that started it came from a state that had no standing to file in the first place.

Then, deport the judge to Syria.

[DSB]

I'll see your NJ and raise you a California.

According to this study, it's not even close. In fact, NJ spends almost double what Cal does.

http://education.cu-portland.edu/blog/classroom-resources/public-education-costs-per-pupil-by-state-rankings/