New York vs Every other track

[RacingFan1992]

Why is it that horses who excel at places such as Keeneland or Santa Anita but are flops at places such as Belmont or Saratoga and the opposite is also true. Easy Goer and Sunday Silence come to mind. There are some horses who are the exception such as Songbird. Can anyone explain this?

[EasyGoer89]

Different surfaces and a lot of the 'flops' are shipping related, if you sent a horse from NY to Cal or vice Versa 2 months before their race and let them get acclimated and have a handful of works over the new surface and get used to temp and climate changes, you would have a lot less flops imo.

[RacingFan1992]

Different surfaces and a lot of the 'flops' are shipping related, if you sent a horse from NY to Cal or vice Versa 2 months before their race and let them get acclimated and have a handful of works over the new surface and get used to temp and climate changes, you would have a lot less flops imo.
As for the track surface, Easy Goer flopped in the Derby and Classic at Churchill Downs and Gulfstream because it was either a slop track or it was not his home track.

[EasyGoer89]

As for the track surface, Easy Goer flopped in the Derby and Classic at Churchill Downs and Gulfstream because it was either a slop track or it was not his home track.

I wouldn't say he 'floopped' at Gulf, if Sunday Silence didn't show up at Gulf, EG wins by a large Margin going away, saying EG flopped at gulf is similar to saying Z flopped when she lost to Blame.

EG was helped by Belmonts sweeping turns and the length of that race, don't know if his success at Belmont was surface related, could have been more distance, sweeping turns and timing related.

[EMD4ME]

I wouldn't say he 'floopped' at Gulf, if Sunday Silence didn't show up at Gulf, EG wins by a large Margin going away, saying EG flopped at gulf is similar to saying Z flopped when she lost to Blame.

EG was helped by Belmonts sweeping turns and the length of that race, don't know if his success at Belmont was surface related, could have been more distance, sweeping turns and timing related.

Put Cordero on Easy Goer and he wins the TRIPLE CROWN and the Classic.

That passive weak hand mush Pat Day cost him millions.

There's a reason people gave Pat a middle initial of F. I hated him as a rider. One of the most over rated ever.

[whisperlunch]

Pat Day is probably the best jockey ever.

[EMD4ME]

Pat Day is probably the best jockey ever.

Nice to see you on PA, Pat F Day :kiss: :lol:

[thaskalos]

Not only was Pat Day a great rider...but he was the classiest guy to ever sit on a thoroughbred.

[dilanesp]

I wouldn't say he 'floopped' at Gulf, if Sunday Silence didn't show up at Gulf, EG wins by a large Margin going away, saying EG flopped at gulf is similar to saying Z flopped when she lost to Blame.

EG was helped by Belmonts sweeping turns and the length of that race, don't know if his success at Belmont was surface related, could have been more distance, sweeping turns and timing related.

He loved Aqueduct too. His Gotham was awesome.

Sunday Silence was just a better competitor. In any other crop EG would have been a TC winner and probably an all time great.

[EMD4ME]

I can give you that as I don't know him personally.

Doesn't mean he gave Easy Goer the rides Easy Goer needed.

[EasyGoer89]

Not only was Pat Day a great rider...but he was the classiest guy to ever sit on a thoroughbred.

Many years ago I found myself walking next to Pat Day in a racetrack parking lot and it was early in the year and he had just won a race earlier that day on a fancy 3yo gorgeous looker, very well bred and I said hello to him and asked about that horse and gave him my 2 cents that he may be a 'derby horse' and in so many words he told me 'it's Really hard just to get there' and essentially 'talked me off' this horse and he turned out right, the horse essentially vanished and never even made it to a prep race. Classy guy, totally gave me the time of 'day' even though I'm sure it was obvious to him I knew nothing about racing lol

[Gentz]

I think as far as comparing New York to California shippers it all has to do with pace.. New York horses only run half of a race due to slow pace and Southern Cal horses run every bit of it.. Generalizing of course... When NY horses ship to So Cal they are usually outrun and when its reversed So Cal horses face a slower pace and have more left.. Just an observation and MHO.

[EMD4ME]

I think as far as comparing New York to California shippers it all has to do with pace.. New York horses only run half of a race due to slow pace and Southern Cal horses run every bit of it.. Generalizing of course... When NY horses ship to So Cal they are usually outrun and when its reversed So Cal horses face a slower pace and have more left.. Just an observation and MHO.

Makes a lot of sense :ThmbUp:

[mountainman]

Medication loopholes and comparative blind spots in testing procedures that certain trainers can better exploit within certain jurisdictions to the advantage of certain horses.

[BELMONT 6-6-09]

Pat Day is probably the best jockey ever.

A great jockey indeed, but, he wasn't called Pat wait all Day" for nothing. He had a tendency to wait to make the final move and came up short in some big races.

[burnsy]

He loved Aqueduct too. His Gotham was awesome.

Sunday Silence was just a better competitor. In any other crop EG would have been a TC winner and probably an all time great.

That was the difference, and I don't know about calling Easy Goer's losses a flop. The Preakness was as close as it gets. Easy Goer had all the talent in the world but he didn't like the "eyeball", Sunday Silence loved it. Every horse has a personality and Sunday Silence had that killer instinct. Easy Goer had a bloodline for horses that didn't care for that final push when it was tooth and nail. Many Alydars had that trait, including Alydar himself. Easy Goer was great when he could canter up by 4 on his own track, it was the competitive ones he had trouble with out of town.

Horse racing is no different than any other sport, the "team" prefers their own ground, some travel well, some do not.

Turkoman was sort of the same way.

[zico20]

Put Cordero on Easy Goer and he wins the TRIPLE CROWN and the Classic.

That passive weak hand mush Pat Day cost him millions.

There's a reason people gave Pat a middle initial of F. I hated him as a rider. One of the most over rated ever.

I concur. Day blew more wins than all the other jockeys on the planet combined. :D

[dilanesp]

Medication loopholes and comparative blind spots in testing procedures that certain trainers can better exploit within certain jurisdictions to the advantage of certain horses.

To this day I think this explains Lava Man's career.

[rrpic6]

Not only was Pat Day a great rider...but he was the classiest guy to ever sit on a thoroughbred.

Ask some of his fellow jockeys to verify that, especially some of the lower level journeymen he'd have to share a locker room with.

RR

[aaron]

Put Cordero on Easy Goer and he wins the TRIPLE CROWN and the Classic.

That passive weak hand mush Pat Day cost him millions.

There's a reason people gave Pat a middle initial of F. I hated him as a rider. One of the most over rated ever.
I always find it amazing that people think Pat Day was a great rider. Pat wait all Day lost more races with his tactics than any top jockey should have. The one positive about him, for some reason, he was very good in 7F races.

[dilanesp]

I always find it amazing that people think Pat Day was a great rider. Pat wait all Day lost more races with his tactics than any top jockey should have. The one positive about him, for some reason, he was very good in 7F races.

He had some incredibly great rides in big races. Check out the 1984 and 1990 BC Classics to start with.

[ReplayRandall]

Ask some of his fellow jockeys to verify that, especially some of the lower level journeymen he'd have to share a locker room with.

RR

Those that knew Pat before 1984, would have a different opinion than those jocks who knew him afterwards....

[ReplayRandall]

I always find it amazing that people think Pat Day was a great rider.

Tough crowd.....Pat Day only rode 12 BC winners(2nd all-time), had 8803 lifetime career wins(4th all-time) and amassed $298 Million in lifetime purse earnings(1st all-time).

[aaron]

Tough crowd.....Pat Day only rode 12 BC winners(2nd all-time), had 8803 lifetime career wins(4th all-time) and amassed $298 Million in lifetime purse earnings(1st all-time).
Not arguing with his record. I believe at the time of his retirement, he was the leading rider in lifetime purses. I just remember watching him and wondering what he was doing. I never felt that way watching Cordero,Bailey or Pincay.

[Spalding No!]

Why is it that horses who excel at places such as Keeneland or Santa Anita but are flops at places such as Belmont or Saratoga and the opposite is also true. Easy Goer and Sunday Silence come to mind. There are some horses who are the exception such as Songbird. Can anyone explain this?
Not sure I buy this as a real phenomenon. Other "exceptions" (going back circa 1970) include:

Big Spruce, Exceller, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid, John Henry, Broad Brush, Alysheba, Precisionist, Criminal Type, Flying Continental, In Excess, Pleasant Tap, Sultry Song, Marquetry, Cigar, Dramatic Gold, Bertrando, Skip Away, Riboletta, Lite Light, Wekiva Springs, Tiznow, Congaree, Medaglia D'Oro, Borrego, Ron The Greek, Hoppertunity, Lakeway, Lady's Secret, Chief's Crown, Gulch, Ibero, Aldebaran, Pico Central, Bayakoa, Sharp Cat, Azeri, Toccet, Mucho Macho Man, Ancient Title, Island Whirl, Fort Larned, Bates Motel, River Keen, Autobiography, A.P. Indy, Thunder Gulch, Susan's Girl, Glorious Song, Bold N' Determined, Serena's Song, Silverbulletday, Rags To Riches, Life's Magic, Goodbye Halo, Very Subtle, Gamely, You, Indian Blessing, Escena, Blind Luck, Royal Delta, Tabasco Cat, Point Given, Timber Country, Princess Rooney, Countess Diana, Favorite Trick, Came Home, Shanghai Bobby, Midnight Lute, Runhappy, Quiet American, El Corredor, Lemhi Gold.

If there is a dearth of bicoastal stakes winners in recent years its probably due to the infrequency of shipping, the shipping of "second string" horses rather than the top horse in super trainer barns, the lack of regular shipping for individual top horses, and the degrading quality of winter races that were very important in the past (Big Cap, Strub Series, Donn).

[cnollfan]

Not arguing with his record. I believe at the time of his retirement, he was the leading rider in lifetime purses. I just remember watching him and wondering what he was doing. I never felt that way watching Cordero,Bailey or Pincay.

I tend to agree. Day won some races that no other jockey would have won, but he also lost some races that no other jockey would have lost. The very best jockeys emphasize their horse's long suit. Sometimes Day seemed to be pounding a square peg into a round hole.

[EasyGoer89]

Tough crowd.....Pat Day only rode 12 BC winners(2nd all-time), had 8803 lifetime career wins(4th all-time) and amassed $298 Million in lifetime purse earnings(1st all-time).

He also rode against some of the all time greatest riders in his day, jocks in today's game aren't nearly as 'heady' they make as much speed and are physically very capable, but the intelligence of the jocks in that era was unmatched, pat day would be winning quite a few races today against 2017 jocks.

[aaron]

He also rode against some of the all time greatest riders in his day, jocks in today's game aren't nearly as 'heady' they make as much speed and are physically very capable, but the intelligence of the jocks in that era was unmatched, pat day would be winning quite a few races today against 2017 jocks.
Excellent point !!! Totally agree.