The game of Chess

[EasyGoer89]

I don't play chess, never played and don't know how to play, but it's a fascinating game, other than Bobby Fischer, it seems like most chess champions are from countries other than the United States, anyone here play chess ?

Any similarities to great chess players and great horseplayers? We always hear that horse betting is like a big chess match, anyone think that's true, would a great chess player make a good horse bettor and vice Versa?

[barahona44]

I played a lot when I was a young 'un but not for many decades after.About 5 years ago, I was at a get together with some staff from school when the 16 year old son of a colleague took out his portable chess kit and promptly 'schooled ' me. (In my defense, I last played around 1980.) It is a fun game, even if you're not good at it.The thing is you have to be thinking several moves ahead all the time.The kicker is, after three moves each, there are 9 MILLION possible positions.After 4 moves ,288 BILLION possible positions.The typical chess tournament match is about 45 moves.,so you have to start using exponential notation to determine the number of positions.You can learn the basic rules and moves of chess in about 10 minutes.Mastering it will take a lifetime.

I think any activity which involves both mental acuity AND an opponent will always be compared to chess.In that sense, the comparison of racing and chess is probably less strong than warfare or football for example.There are plenty of factors involved in handicapping that have to be taken into account and how you think the horse/jockey and the other horses will behave and react.Like most things in life, a sharp mind will give you an edge.

[delayjf]

What was pointed out to me a long time ago, was that engaging in mental activities like chess or math for example, develop your left brain which deals with analytical thought processes. The more you play, the your mind develops. People who are math whizzes, are better able to tap into their left brain. I wish I had been one of them. :(

[thaskalos]

I prefer to compare horse racing to BACKGAMMON. The short-term results get dominated by "luck"...but SKILL wins out in the end.

[Dave Schwartz]

Check out the Chess Federation Rating System. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_rating_system)

[EasyGoer89]

I prefer to compare horse racing to BACKGAMMON. The short-term results get dominated by "luck"...but SKILL wins out in the end.

I'm a huge backgammon fan, I love playing that game!

[EasyGoer89]

I played a lot when I was a young 'un but not for many decades after.About 5 years ago, I was at a get together with some staff from school when the 16 year old son of a colleague took out his portable chess kit and promptly 'schooled ' me. (In my defense, I last played around 1980.) It is a fun game, even if you're not good at it.The thing is you have to be thinking several moves ahead all the time.The kicker is, after three moves each, there are 9 MILLION possible positions.After 4 moves ,288 BILLION possible positions.The typical chess tournament match is about 45 moves.,so you have to start using exponential notation to determine the number of positions.You can learn the basic rules and moves of chess in about 10 minutes.Mastering it will take a lifetime.

I think any activity which involves both mental acuity AND an opponent will always be compared to chess.In that sense, the comparison of racing and chess is probably less strong than warfare or football for example.There are plenty of factors involved in handicapping that have to be taken into account and how you think the horse/jockey and the other horses will behave and react.Like most things in life, a sharp mind will give you an edge.

Good post. Amazing with so many billions of moves a human can beat a computer.

[DeltaLover]

See this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Chess

This book also talks about freestyle chess and the future of the game:

https://www.amazon.com/Average-Over-Powering-America-Stagnation/dp/0142181110/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1483552453&sr=1-1&keywords=average+is+over

[Track Collector]

I was an avid chess player in my high school years and a little bit after that, and it began right around the time chess became popular with Bobby Fischer.

My current USCF rating has fallen to 1600 (class floor) due to inactivity. My peak rating was 1771, which was achieved something like 35-40 years ago. The last tournament I played in was in 1992 or 1993.

I can not remember the last time I played a game, but I still almost daily read a world chess site out of curiosity to see how the top world players are doing and play thru some of the games. I am a huge Magnus Carlsen fan.

Even with the huge amount of time I spend on horseracing and poker, I have kicked around the idea of playing in another tournament just to see if I can still win a game once and a while. One thing that has changed significantly since my early days is time limits. Typical tournament games are played at a significantly faster time limit than the bygone era, and my thinking speed (as a near 60-year old) has definitely slowed down. :faint:

I see chess and horseracing as analytical activities.

[DeltaLover]

I prefer to compare horse racing to BACKGAMMON. The short-term results get dominated by "luck"...but SKILL wins out in the end.

Backgammon is way much simpler than chess and it is much easier to solve.

Also, the fact that the dice are determining the possible moves does not mean that "luck" is involved at least not in the same way it is in horse racing. The reason is that the probabilities can be fully estimated thus at any spot there exists a correct or wrong movement, the same does not apply to horse racing where the real probabilities remain always unknown.

[thaskalos]

Backgammon is way much simpler than chess and it is much easier to solve.

Also, the fact that the dice are determining the possible moves does not mean that "luck" is involved at least not in the same way it is in horse racing. The reason is that the probabilities can be fully estimated thus at any spot there exists a correct or wrong movement, the same does not apply to horse racing where the real probabilities remain always unknown.

I never meant to imply that backgammon and horseracing were "similar"...I was just saying that horseracing is closer to backgammon than it is to chess...because "luck" is a virtual NON-FACTOR in chess.

[thaskalos]

I was an avid chess player in my high school years and a little bit after that, and it began right around the time chess became popular with Bobby Fischer.

My current USCF rating has fallen to 1600 (class floor) due to inactivity. My peak rating was 1771, which was achieved something like 35-40 years ago. The last tournament I played in was in 1992 or 1993.

I can not remember the last time I played a game, but I still almost daily read a world chess site out of curiosity to see how the top world players are doing and play thru some of the games. I am a huge Magnus Carlsen fan.

Even with the huge amount of time I spend on horseracing and poker, I have kicked around the idea of playing in another tournament just to see if I can still win a game once and a while. One thing that has changed significantly since my early days is time limits. Typical tournament games are played at a significantly faster time limit than the bygone era, and my thinking speed (as a near 60-year old) has definitely slowed down. :faint:

I see chess and horseracing as analytical activities.

Do you find that your age is a "handicap" in POKER?

[DeltaLover]

I never meant to imply that backgammon and horseracing were "similar"...I was just saying that horseracing is closer to backgammon than it is to chess...because "luck" is a virtual NON-FACTOR in chess.

Yes I agree.

[DeltaLover]

Do you find that your age is a "handicap" in POKER?

Either we want to accept it or not getting older affects our abilities in everything. More than this I think that it is true that a horse handicapper is definitely less affected by age than a poker player and he probably has a longer lifespan as a bettor.

[ldiatone]

i still play on the computer against the computer. win once in while :blush:

[thaskalos]

Either we want to accept it or not getting older affects our abilities in everything. More than this I think that it is true that a horse handicapper is definitely less affected by age than a poker player and he probably has a longer lifespan as a bettor.

I refuse to accept it. :)

[DeltaLover]

I refuse to accept it. :)

Good for you!

[VigorsTheGrey]

Great website for online chess...LICHESS.ORG....free, just provide email and screen name...play anytime with great players!

[ElKabong]

My wife runs evening chess classes in Irving two nights per week. Now that I can pick my work schedule, I have helped her with beginners the past few months. I never saw handicapping as a help to my chess strategy / skills or vice versa.

Almost all of my wife's students are from India originally. These kids are so far advanced in comparison to the typical American born pre-school & elementary school age kid. These parents (India) are VERY involved in their kids education.

I was making small talk with a student's mom before a class, about their culture. She said she didn't understand why we as a culture pander to Hispanics, saying "The last thing we (her husband and her) would do, is allow our children into a culture without learning the language first. We're here for a period of time.., my children will learn the language".

You get the drift from these people that it would be seen as an embarrassment to them if they didn't master our language while living here. As if not speaking English would equate to having a "handicapped" sign hanging around their neck while being able to walk and function normally

If we could get our (American) kids interested in chess, we'd all be better off for it. The parents of these kids in my wife's class are an inspiration. Accountability of their actions w/o excuses.

[Actor]

... the comparison of racing and chess is probably less strong than warfare or football ...The big difference between chess and war is that when you make an error in chess you are done for unless your opponent also makes an error. Napoleon played chess but historians seem to agree that he was never really good at it. But on more than one occasion he recovered from seemingly hopeless situations on the battlefield and emerged victorious. But at grand master levels in chess a hopeless situation is truly hopeless.

Amazing with so many billions of moves a human can beat a computer.Deep Blue, the computer that defeated Kasparov in 1997, had 65,536 co-processors. In effect it was 65,536 computers. Today there are computers with 1,048,576 co-processors or more.

[EasyGoer89]

The big difference between chess and war is that when you make an error in chess you are done for unless your opponent also makes an error. Napoleon played chess but historians seem to agree that he was never really good at it. But on more than one occasion he recovered from seemingly hopeless situations on the battlefield and emerged victorious. But at grand master levels in chess a hopeless situation is truly hopeless.

Deep Blue, the computer that defeated Kasparov in 1997, had 65,536 co-processors. In effect it was 65,536 computers. Today there are computers with 1,048,576 co-processors or more.


Kasparov accused deep blue of cheating!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Over:_Kasparov_and_the_Machine

Twitter.com/kasparov63

He's also on Twitter.

[Track Collector]

Do you find that your age is a "handicap" in POKER?

I find SKILL abilities to be much more of a handicap. :)

[ldiatone]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj8tI4S2Ilk&feature=pyv&ad=42783650786&kw=chess

[Secondbest]

I like to go to chess.com for the puzzles and tactics trainer. Also play against the computer. It helps to keep the mind sharp as you age .I also do sudoku it's also good for the brain. Although some studies say not so.

[classhandicapper]

I like to go to chess.com for the puzzles and tactics trainer. Also play against the computer. It helps to keep the mind sharp as you age .

I do the same exact thing for the same exact reason.

I like the game a lot, but I already have too many interests to try to get good at it. The tactics trainer is perfect. It forces me to think a few moves ahead without having to compete against other players or worry too much about getting better.

Playing straight pool used to do the same thing for me. I got very good at that game for awhile (misspent youth). It forces you to think several shots ahead, see patterns, weigh risks and rewards and also execute physically. I wish I had time to play pool more seriously now. In fact, I started noticing my inability to concentrate and think ahead as well I used to when I was young while playing pool. That's why I started tinkering with chess. I want to stay sharp if I can.

[Actor]

Bobby Fisher came up with a variation of chess where the starting position is determined by chance. You start by rolling a pair of dice. If the roll is greater than 8 or if the number has already come up you roll again. The first two rolls determine which files the knights go on. After that you roll only one die, assigning the files for the bishops and the rooks. The final roll determines the file of the queens and whatever file is left goes to the kings.

Fisher's goal was to eliminate the study and memorization of openings. This system has too many permutations to allow that, 40320 to be exact. At least that's what he thought.

At the other extreme is Los Alamos Chess played on a 6x6 board with no bishops, no castling and pawns always advancing only one square, never two. I've also seen a variation with one knight, one bishop, one rook, played on a 5x8 board which eliminates files 1,2,3.

[Stick]

I don't play chess, never played and don't know how to play, but it's a fascinating game, other than Bobby Fischer, it seems like most chess champions are from countries other than the United States, anyone here play chess ?

Any similarities to great chess players and great horseplayers? We always hear that horse betting is like a big chess match, anyone think that's true, would a great chess player make a good horse bettor and vice Versa?

Chess is alive and thriving with Americans. U.S just won the mens olympiad in 2016 beating over 150 other countries and has three players in the top 7 in the world ( Caruana, So, Nakamura). I can spend all day between horse racing and chess. Love both of them. As far as similarities between success in both, there is a huge amount of pattern recognition in chess. In horse racing, one could argue that this is very valuable also.

[thaskalos]

U.S just won the mens olympiad in 2016 beating over 150 other countries and has three players in the top 7 in the world ( Caruana, So, Nakamura).


Solid, All-American names. :ThmbUp:

[Stick]

Not sure what an American name is these days. Nakamura came here when he was two from Japan. So his whole chess career is as an American. Wesley So played a lot in the Phillippines when he was young, so I guess he can be excluded. Caruana, who is the 2nd highest rated player in the world was born in America.

Even though it takes a huge amount of training to be a high level chess player, I think there is a born ability which is given to a select few. For example, the current world champion Magnus Carlsen was putting together erector sets for kids 8+ when he was only two years old. This is where I think chess and horse racing expertise separate.

[MPRanger]

Annie Duke explains that Chess is not a game. It's an iteration (whatever exactly that means).

In comparing Chess to Texas Holdem, she points out that Holdem is a game of incomplete information. Chess is a game of COMPLETE information . Everyone can see all the variables at all times.

Horse racing is like Poker. It's a game of incomplete information also.

----

Here is a way Holdem is like Horse Racing:

If you think a horse is worth even money but it's currently paying 2-1 on the tote board then you have an overlay.

If there's $100 in the pot and you have an open ended straight draw on the flop, you have 8 outs. Using the rule of 4 and 2 ---- 4 * 8 =32. - You have 2 - 1 against chance to make your straight. But if you only have to call $20 then you are getting 4-1 on your money thus an overlay.

Horse Racing is more like Poker than Chess.

Chess is not like Horse Racing. Playing requires different skill sets.

[Jess Hawsen Arown]

I don't play chess, never played and don't know how to play, but it's a fascinating game, other than Bobby Fischer, it seems like most chess champions are from countries other than the United States, anyone here play chess ?

Any similarities to great chess players and great horseplayers? We always hear that horse betting is like a big chess match, anyone think that's true, would a great chess player make a good horse bettor and vice Versa?

A FAVORITE TOPIC!

I was a chess player before I was a horseplayer. My dad was an excellent player and thought I had the ability to be a great player. (oh, for over-exuberant fathers). He took me to Brooklyn chess clubs before I was 10 and I met the guy who "claimed" to have taught Bobby Fischer and he taught me some tricks I remember today. Alas, I had neither the aptitude nor the desire to study for hours -- something all of the great chess players do.

Chess is fascinating in so many aspects. As easily as I would beat most chess players, that is how easily I would be beaten by a Master. This is why I actually made money gambling on chess in the army. Some soldier was chirping that he could 'beat anybody here' at chess. Only two people could make such claims, a chess master or somebody who knew nothing about the game. Since further investigation assured me he was not the former, he must be the latter. He could not believe how "lucky" I was to beat him every game.

As for your comment about foreign chess players, chess did not become popular in this country until the outspoken Fischer backed up his Ali-like bravado with actions at the chess board, and his 1972 games with Boris Spassky were televised. Fischer was right when he complained about the "Russian cheats" keeping him from becoming a world champion. That was because of the rules of the championship games. In order to make it to the championship match, you had to win a certain amount of points in a tournament. No, the Russians did not cheat to win. But any top grandmaster can usually be successful if they play for a draw. Fischer claimed that is what the Russians did to keep him from advancing, and most observers agreed. Whether his claims made the Russians play more honestly, or he was just too damned good, he finally became world champion.

IMO, Fischer was a chess savant. In all other aspects, he was an idiot. But I digress.

As for your question relating handicapping to chess, I agree. When I started getting serious about handicapping, I expected to find a a lot of chess players among the more successful.

Similarity:

Mere mortal chess players are limited to how many moves ahead they can see. You need to be near the end of the game to see victory. So what you try to do early in the game, is stretch your mind to see a future position which you believe is to your advantage.

Mere mortal horseplayers cannot see victory -- until after the race has started, aka, TOO LATE :confused: so all you can do before the race has started is gather enough information to put yourself in position to make the best possible decision.

Some of us mere mortal handicappers are not clever enough to have winners pop off the page when we look at the entries and need to put in much time to be successful.

[Jess Hawsen Arown]

I was an avid chess player in my high school years and a little bit after that, and it began right around the time chess became popular with Bobby Fischer.

My current USCF rating has fallen to 1600 (class floor) due to inactivity. My peak rating was 1771, which was achieved something like 35-40 years ago. The last tournament I played in was in 1992 or 1993.

I can not remember the last time I played a game, but I still almost daily read a world chess site out of curiosity to see how the top world players are doing and play thru some of the games. I am a huge Magnus Carlsen fan.

Even with the huge amount of time I spend on horseracing and poker, I have kicked around the idea of playing in another tournament just to see if I can still win a game once and a while. One thing that has changed significantly since my early days is time limits. Typical tournament games are played at a significantly faster time limit than the bygone era, and my thinking speed (as a near 60-year old) has definitely slowed down. :faint:

I see chess and horseracing as analytical activities.

Based on your rating, you were a better player than I ever was.

May I recommend www.chess.com. It is a wonderful site. I won't go in to all of the benefits. PLEASE FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF! I am significantly older than you and have found that playing at this site has definitely improved by thought processes in many arenas.

BTW, this site is also a great place for beginners!!

[pondman]

Horse racing requires you to know precisely how often not to depend on what you know.

[thaskalos]

IMO...chess masters would make TERRIBLE horseplayers. They'd never be able to handle the losing streaks.

[ElKabong]

I was reminded tonight how old I am

I was helping a new player tonight at my wife's chess class. I wanted to teach her how to defend a planned discovery move. I told her "if I do that you'd be in a pickle"

The little girl is six years old. She said "a pickle? What do you mean". Our assistant coach is a high school physics teacher, about forty years old. He looks at me and says "pickle? That's old person talk, she doesn't know what that means"

I felt 100 years old :)

I'll say this, being around these kids makes you feel 30 years younger. Kids that take chess seriously at pre school and grade school age are cool. Learning chess is fun, they have a blast.

[Nitro]

IMO...chess masters would make TERRIBLE horseplayers. They'd never be able to handle the losing streaks.Grand Masters generally don't have losing streaks. A lot of draws maybe.
But I agree with the idea that they wouldn't make good horse players for a number of reasons.
One of which would be a tendency of getting shut-out due to their lengthy decision process.


David an astute chess player in his own right and associate of mine is still actively in touch will Bill Lombardy (Bobby Fisher’s mentor) on a regular basis. As an elderly gentleman (and grandmaster) Bill can still play a mean game. In fact, I’m told that in 2009 that he beat the Computer Chess Program – “Shredder 11” in a 7-hour match in 180 moves! He claims that these computer programs fail miserably in their End games.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lombardy

David has recently completed a unique Chess tutorial book and Mr. Lombardy not only reviewed it but also authored the “Forward” portion. It’s not in publication yet, but from what I understand it should be released sometime later this year.
.

[Tom]

IMO...chess masters would make TERRIBLE horseplayers. They'd never be able to handle the losing streaks.

They would be side betting on the knights. :D

[HalvOnHorseracing]

IMO...chess masters would make TERRIBLE horseplayers. They'd never be able to handle the losing streaks.
There are always exceptions. I know a professional horseplayer with a 2100 rating.

[VigorsTheGrey]

I play chess regularly at Lichess.org

I played for a time playing white using the same opening every time...after the initial opening there were only some moves black could make and I then developed counter moves for each of these moves until I was able to extend my push down the board further...

...little by little, I gained insight into what and what not to do...then I would develop a plan to sacrifice my pieces in such a way as to intice black into landing on certain squares from where I could launch a forced CHECK sequence to win the game....as long as I kept to this same opening and plan, my rating would rise to around 1600...

....I also ran into players who could demolish my strategy very quickly...but that also taught me the weaknesses in my play and made me a better player...

[Jess Hawsen Arown]

When I started playing as a kid, there were no numerical ratings. If I remember correctly, there was D through A. I don't remember if there was AA. But I do remember there was an EXPERT class between the letter classes and the Master class.

I remember as a young kid, I used to make the older B players angry because of how easily I beat them. However, there was one cigar smoking C player I could never beat. Don't know if it was his cigars that upset me or the Stonewall Defense he always played.

Today -- since I neither know the openings nor the desire to study them, I always have to play from behind against better players. But I've always been a good closer and am pretty good at getting up just before the wire -- as long as it doesn't rain on the chess board. Hard to close in the slop.