Misguided Racing Secretaries, yeah Santa Anita

[linrom1]

During the past two Santa Anita racing meets I had only bet into two Pick 4s. On both occasions, these P-4s included ALL STAKE races. Why.....because these are form-full races where a non-racing insider has a good and honest shot at placing a winning wager.

On the hand, when P-4s are designed to include CLAIMING races, they are made to FLEECE the betting public because they are STRICTLY for the benefit of insiders; that's, trainers, all racing personnel and connected bettors. What the racing secretary is doing is plainly facilitating and accommodating theft.

On Santa Anita 12/31/16 card there are 9 races, 6 are beautiful races including Robert Frankel Stake on Turf which was placed as the 4th race. Why wasn't it worked into the final P-4 as the eighth race with American Oaks being the final leg of this P-4. Instead the racing secretary dumped a $29k Maiden Claiming as the final leg of P-4.

Am I going to bet this stupid race, no way! But my trainer acquaintance(he only won the Belmont) might because as he tells me, he knows all these crooks and can usually figure out their intent. I can't, in fact, I don't have clue about trainer intent...I want to bet into races where trainers run their horses to win.

[thaskalos]

So, in your opinion, the pick-4 shouldn't be offered on the days when stakes races don't dominate the race menu?

[DeltaLover]

I completely to agree with what you are saying here.

Personally, I try to avoid betting races with first time outs or claimers as much I can. Stakes races tend to suppress the insider's advantage and without a doubt are preferable to cheap claimers or maiden special weights (especially with several first time starters).

As you say, racing secretaries do not understand this simple concept and instead of grouping all the cheap races in the beginning of the card, they prefer to spread them across the card ending up horizontal bets that must be passed.

[DeltaLover]

So, in your opinion, the pick-4 shouldn't be offered on the days when stakes races don't dominate the race menu?

I do not think he says something like this. Instead whenever the program contains some good quality races it is a good idea to arrange them sequentially so they can create good horizontal bets.

[linrom1]

So, in your opinion, the pick-4 shouldn't be offered on the days when stakes races don't dominate the race menu?

No, general public does not bet on average days. I can tell you what the SA Racing Secretary would say to justify his race selection for P-4,5s.

He would say that he wants to make these races betable so that it'll pay a good size return. For whom? Whose book is talking? Not, $9-$27 P-4 players!

[green80]

Do you really think these trainers would be training horses if they knew who was going to win these races? Why don't they just bet for a living?

Want inside information on the first time starters? Watch the tote board, that is where the people that think they know something express their opinion.

[DeltaLover]

Do you really think these trainers would be training horses if they knew who was going to win these races? Why don't they just bet for a living?

Is not that they know who is going to win the race but that they have access to information that is not known to the betting crowd, something that some times, can result to an unfair advantage.

[Inner Dirt]

I don't understand why we have people in here who bet the races thinking everyone involved with them is crooked.

[DeltaLover]

Want inside information on the first time starters? Watch the tote board, that is where the people that think they know something express their opinion.

I prefer to have creditable and reliable workout reports, access to vet info and better than this a qualifier race before the horse is available for betting.

[DeltaLover]

I don't understand why we have people in here who bet the races thinking everyone involved with them is crooked.

I think that the history of the sport is enough to keep you suspicious about the integrity of some of the connections.

[green80]

Is not that they know who is going to win the race but that they have access to information that is not known to the betting crowd, something that some times, can result to an unfair advantage.

Not different than any other sport, there are always some that have information that is not available to the general public. What is the solution?

[DeltaLover]

Not different than any other sport, there are always some that have information that is not available to the general public. What is the solution?

The solution is simple: Much less racing, no claiming races at all, strict regulations and drug control, transparent vet and workout records, penalties for bad performances etc. See Australian and Hong Kong racing for a more comprehensive list.

[Maximillion]

The solution is simple: Much less racing, no claiming races at all, strict regulations and drug control, transparent vet and workout records, penalties for bad performances etc. See Australian and Hong Kong racing for a more comprehensive list.

You dont bet on claiming races of any kind at all?

[EMD4ME]

If a pick 5 had 5 MDSP or MDCL races, I'd throw a party. I love those races.

Give me a stake and I want to pass.

To each his own.

[EMD4ME]

I can bet every claiming race at EMD.

I can't bet a single open claimer at NYRA.


Overall, hate open claiming races. My 2 cents.

2 Lifetime, 3 Lifetime, not bad. Can work with those.

I like to handicap horses, not vets.

[DeltaLover]

You dont bet on claiming races of any kind at all?


I try not to bet a single claiming race but I end up betting 1 CLM for each 8 non claiming, and this one is almost always the second leg of a double that I try to complete.

[no breathalyzer]

I can bet every claiming race at EMD.

I can't bet a single open claimer at NYRA.


Overall, hate open claiming races. My 2 cents.

2 Lifetime, 3 Lifetime, not bad. Can work with those.

I like to handicap horses, not vets.
the best races to make bank

[EasyGoer89]

During the past two Santa Anita racing meets I had only bet into two Pick 4s. On both occasions, these P-4s included ALL STAKE races. Why.....because these are form-full races where a non-racing insider has a good and honest shot at placing a winning wager.

On the hand, when P-4s are designed to include CLAIMING races, they are made to FLEECE the betting public because they are STRICTLY for the benefit of insiders; that's, trainers, all racing personnel and connected bettors. What the racing secretary is doing is plainly facilitating and accommodating theft.

On Santa Anita 12/31/16 card there are 9 races, 6 are beautiful races including Robert Frankel Stake on Turf which was placed as the 4th race. Why wasn't it worked into the final P-4 as the eighth race with American Oaks being the final leg of this P-4. Instead the racing secretary dumped a $29k Maiden Claiming as the final leg of P-4.

Am I going to bet this stupid race, no way! But my trainer acquaintance(he only won the Belmont) might because as he tells me, he knows all these crooks and can usually figure out their intent. I can't, in fact, I don't have clue about trainer intent...I want to bet into races where trainers run their horses to win.

I love a good conspiracy theory but why is one race more 'fleecing' than another? Also, nobody is stopping you from betting 'all' In the race you can't handicap, what specifically makes a maiden claimer the race of your ire?

[Frost king]

People are afraid to embrace chaos. That is the beauty of maiden races, especially cheap maidens. Best place to make a score in the horizontals.

[mountainman]

During the past two Santa Anita racing meets I had only bet into two Pick 4s. On both occasions, these P-4s included ALL STAKE races. Why.....because these are form-full races where a non-racing insider has a good and honest shot at placing a winning wager.

On the hand, when P-4s are designed to include CLAIMING races, they are made to FLEECE the betting public because they are STRICTLY for the benefit of insiders; that's, trainers, all racing personnel and connected bettors. What the racing secretary is doing is plainly facilitating and accommodating theft.

On Santa Anita 12/31/16 card there are 9 races, 6 are beautiful races including Robert Frankel Stake on Turf which was placed as the 4th race. Why wasn't it worked into the final P-4 as the eighth race with American Oaks being the final leg of this P-4. Instead the racing secretary dumped a $29k Maiden Claiming as the final leg of P-4.

Am I going to bet this stupid race, no way! But my trainer acquaintance(he only won the Belmont) might because as he tells me, he knows all these crooks and can usually figure out their intent. I can't, in fact, I don't have clue about trainer intent...I want to bet into races where trainers run their horses to win.

Lots of stakes races have shorter fields.

[mountainman]

People are afraid to embrace chaos. That is the beauty of maiden races, especially cheap maidens. Best place to make a score in the horizontals.

I'd be surprised if, adjusted for field-size, mdn/clm winners avg higher odds.

[EMD4ME]

]People are afraid to embrace chaos[/B]. That is the beauty of maiden races, especially cheap maidens. Best place to make a score in the horizontals.

I love CHAOS, especially if the chaotic thing happens and a viable bomb wins. The worst, is when you have chaos (5 horse speed battle-3 horses off slow or some other wacky event) and a stupid chalk wins :bang:

Back to your point, give me those 10 horse, all FTS fields, like at the SPA and I'm in heaven.

[ReplayRandall]

I'd be surprised if, adjusted for field-size, mdn/clm winners avg higher odds.

In 40 years of betting, without a doubt, my biggest scores have come mostly in MDN/mdClm races.....It's the nature of the uncertain beast.

[Prof.Factor]

The solution is simple: Much less racing, no claiming races at all, strict regulations and drug control, transparent vet and workout records, penalties for bad performances etc. See Australian and Hong Kong racing for a more comprehensive list.
Ditto that, for sure.

[Prof.Factor]

Do you really think these trainers would be training horses if they knew who was going to win these races? Why don't they just bet for a living?

Want inside information on the first time starters? Watch the tote board, that is where the people that think they know something express their opinion.
I can't believe this came out of Louisiana!!

"Some" trainers do bet for a living, that's why they train horses.

Tote board expresses general public opinion .... not people that know something.

[CincyHorseplayer]

If a pick 5 had 5 MDSP or MDCL races, I'd throw a party. I love those races.

Give me a stake and I want to pass.

To each his own.

I find I just like the variety. There can be just as much chaos with high profile bloodstock and bigtime trainers as at the cheapest track in the country. Except at those high profile places when chaos doesn't happen chalk tends to dominate especially in stakes. I love the variety of high and low tracks. Most of my prices come from turf at the high level tracks and dirt at low level tracks. That's my idea of balance. And like yourself I can deal with these races. Especially after doing about 3 years of pedigree research and incorporating it into my game. Basically in these races we are just talking about being proficient with younger, developing horses. That's fun to me. I'd love to hear you talk about approach to the horizontal bets. Never focused on them much but have really come to enjoy them and get good at them recently. Anyway..

[MonmouthParkJoe]

Lots of stakes races have shorter fields.

Spot on. The midnight lute stakes has five entered and is carded as the third race. It is known fact that while quality does increase handle, field size increases it dramatically. With it being carded as the third race it is out of the pick 6 sequence, so perhaps he is trying to prop up that bet with the jackpot provision?

Carryovers are great marketing tools, I mean look at the mahoning valley thread for the jackpot pick 6 mandatory payout. You think there would have been a thread started had that only been like $5k?I dont think I have ever looked at one of their programs before but did because of it.

As a business they are trying to increase handle and their revenue so it makes sense to me. As a horseplayer, yes I love all stakes pick 4s but at the same time the shorter fields and big post time favorites make it less appealing. What makes sense doesnt always make cents. :cool:

[mountainman]

In 40 years of betting, without a doubt, my biggest scores have come mostly in MDN/mdClm races.....It's the nature of the uncertain beast.

Respect your perspective very much, sir. But mdn-claimers are just as logical as any other race. If you understand "the beast."

And, again, if somebody can establish that more upsets occur, or fewer favorites prevail in these races, I'll concede the point. But the research had better come correct.

Happy holidays and tx for the response.

[upthecreek]

If a pick 5 had 5 MDSP or MDCL races, I'd throw a party. I love those races.

Give me a stake and I want to pass.

To each his own.
Agree 100% Who wants a $50-$60 payout for picking 4 straight winners? Or like CC day @ Los Al where it paid $12 :lol:

[Tom]

In 40 years of betting, without a doubt, my biggest scores have come mostly in MDN/mdClm races.....It's the nature of the uncertain beast.

Dittos.
My two cents, I usually avoid most stakes races, all starters, and prefer the cheaper races as a rule.

A filed of 12 nw2lt for $5K is a treat to handicap.

[upthecreek]

Dittos.
My two cents, I usually avoid most stakes races, all starters, and prefer the cheaper races as a rule.

A filed of 12 nw2lt for $5K is a treat to handicap.
I stick to those as well as Mdn Clm I like 2x starters, caught the #5 in last at Tam yesterday, and so did everybody else--6-1ML became 7/2

[thaskalos]

Dittos.
My two cents, I usually avoid most stakes races, all starters, and prefer the cheaper races as a rule.

A filed of 12 nw2lt for $5K is a treat to handicap.

If there were no claiming races...I'd give up the game. :ThmbUp:

[green80]

I can't believe this came out of Louisiana!!

"Some" trainers do bet for a living, that's why they train horses.

Tote board expresses general public opinion .... not people that know something.

I don't think that you will find many "professionals" (trainers, owners, jockeys) that share your opinion. If you were to talk to every trainer in a race usually half think they are going to win and the other half think they have some kinda shot.

[Prof.Factor]

I don't think that you will find many "professionals" (trainers, owners, jockeys) that share your opinion. If you were to talk to every trainer in a race usually half think they are going to win and the other half think they have some kinda shot.
And most would be keeping up appearances.
Anybody that thinks this is an honest sport is delusional, professionals and players alike.

[DeltaLover]

And most would be keeping up appearances.
Anybody that thinks this is an honest sport is delusional, professionals and players alike.

Can you name an honest sport then?

[Grits]

And most would be keeping up appearances.
Anybody that thinks this is an honest sport is delusional, professionals and players alike.

Since we're delusional and you're the one complaining, maybe you can enlighten everyone. What does PROF stand for in your name? Thanks in advance, dude. :faint:

[biggestal99]

I don't understand why we have people in here who bet the races thinking everyone involved with them is crooked.

Well I bet the NJX and absolutely don't think that way.

Huge majority of races won by logical horses.

and I collect my loot when the non contenders run up the track.

Allan

[biggestal99]

And most would be keeping up appearances.
Anybody that thinks this is an honest sport is delusional, professionals and players alike.

Huge majority of races that I bet on are honest as they day is long and I bet a lot of minor tracks (emerald, Penn national, delta downs, Sam HOuston etc)

Guess the dishonest ones are the ones I dont bet.

Allan

[green80]

Saying the races are fixed is just an excuse for poor handicapping or lack of knowledge of the sport. Races are not 1% as crooked as people say they are. If you feel that the races are fixed why would you ever bet $1 on the game?

[Tom]

Can you name an honest sport then?

Professional Wrestling.

[DeltaLover]

Saying the races are fixed is just an excuse for poor handicapping or lack of knowledge of the sport. Races are not 1% as crooked as people say they are. If you feel that the races are fixed why would you ever bet $1 on the game?

Depends on what you mean by crooked.

Probably the majority of the races are no fixed in the sense that their exact outcome is predecided (although this can happen from time to time) but this does not mean that the game is not "crooked".

The hidden information that is only known to a limited number of insiders is more than enough to affect the betting markets and convert them to an impossible to beat game for the outsider.

The majority of trainers, owners and jockeys are involved in betting and they always try to find ways to upset the crowd. Drug use, deceiving training patterns and intentionally bad performances are only some of the "tools" employed by insiders in their attempt to inflate the price of their horse when finally it will "go for the race".

The effect of this unfair behavior is multiplied and becomes really dominant in minor leagues where very cheap and low quality horses are running in completely insignificant races who exist only for betting purposes and the paychecks of the horsemen and nothing else..

This is why tracks like Mountaineer, Finger Lakes or Charles Town are destructive for the game as they provide extremely low quality and no chance to make a long term profit by betting their ridiculous races. Instead, in this type of tracks the betting dollar is nothing else than a blood donor to the welfare for the local horsemen.

[sjk]

My Dad and I owned around 100 horses over the years with 3 different trainers. Those trainers bet little or not at all.

The trainers I dealt with tended to be optimistic and if you bet every time they liked their chances you would go broke.

Small pools are the biggest problem with the smaller tracks. It never crosses my mind to think about who the connections are betting.

I have done just fine at the small tracks over the years but I am sure it doesn't work for everyone.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

I liken betting the races to golf in the sense that the best golfers have a full repertoire of shots that they can execute well. The can fade, draw, hit it high, hit it low. The hit the ball well off the tee and are deadly on the green. You can be a decent golfer even if you can't draw the ball at will, or are an average putter, but if you want to get to the highest levels, you have to be able to do it all.

Similarly, you can be most proficient at one type of race, but to hit the top you have to be able to see opportunities in any type of race.

In the movie Quigley Down Under, Tom Selleck plays a sharpshooter with a long rifle. After meeting with the "bad guy" (played by ace bad guy Alan Rickman) Rickman shows him his prize pistols and Selleck says, "I never had much use for them." In the climactic scene, Rickman and two of his men have a showdown with Selleck. Rickman doesn't let Selleck use the rifle he is so proficient at using, instead fitting him with one of his pistols. Selleck of course kills all three with the pistol, then stands over a dying Rickman and says, "I said I never had much use for them. Never said I didn't know how to use one."

Kind of a good phiosophy for handicapping.

[biggestal99]

The hidden information that is only known to a limited number of insiders is more than enough to affect the betting markets and convert them to an impossible to beat game for the outsider.



Lucky for me, that NJX doesn't let those limited number of insiders to bet on the exchange. I pay almost no attention to the track odds, only the exchange ones.

For instance, at Delta the other day, a horse on the ML at 10-1 was 2-5 at the first flash. Non factor in my betting.

Allan

[thaskalos]

I liken betting the races to golf in the sense that the best golfers have a full repertoire of shots that they can execute well. The can fade, draw, hit it high, hit it low. The hit the ball well off the tee and are deadly on the green. You can be a decent golfer even if you can't draw the ball at will, or are an average putter, but if you want to get to the highest levels, you have to be able to do it all.

Similarly, you can be most proficient at one type of race, but to hit the top you have to be able to see opportunities in any type of race.

In the movie Quigley Down Under, Tom Selleck plays a sharpshooter with a long rifle. After meeting with the "bad guy" (played by ace bad guy Alan Rickman) Rickman shows him his prize pistols and Selleck says, "I never had much use for them." In the climactic scene, Rickman and two of his men have a showdown with Selleck. Rickman doesn't let Selleck use the rifle he is so proficient at using, instead fitting him with one of his pistols. Selleck of course kills all three with the pistol, then stands over a dying Rickman and says, "I said I never had much use for them. Never said I didn't know how to use one."

Kind of a good phiosophy for handicapping.

IMO...sharp handicapping is rather easy. I am often BRILLIANT when I paper-bet while sitting at my kitchen table. It's when I approach the betting window that my problems begin.

[green80]

My Dad and I owned around 100 horses over the years with 3 different trainers. Those trainers bet little or not at all.

The trainers I dealt with tended to be optimistic and if you bet every time they liked their chances you would go broke.

Small pools are the biggest problem with the smaller tracks. It never crosses my mind to think about who the connections are betting.

I have done just fine at the small tracks over the years but I am sure it doesn't work for everyone.

This has been my experience exactly. I have said before that most of the trainers that I know (and I know many) don't hardly bet at all. Most will tell you that they think they can win or that they have a shot. I don't pay much attention to who the connections are betting, they are wrong more often than they are right.

[thaskalos]

Saying the races are fixed is just an excuse for poor handicapping or lack of knowledge of the sport. Races are not 1% as crooked as people say they are. If you feel that the races are fixed why would you ever bet $1 on the game?

Are you just exaggerating for effect...or are you being serious?

[DeltaLover]

Lucky for me, that NJX doesn't let those limited number of insiders to bet on the exchange. I pay almost no attention to the track odds, only the exchange ones.

For instance, at Delta the other day, a horse on the ML at 10-1 was 2-5 at the first flash. Non factor in my betting.

Allan

What makes you to believe that inside money do not appear in the exchange? Also how big are the exchange positions? How they compare to the official pools?

[Robert Fischer]

http://oi66.tinypic.com/nfmf80.jpg

misguided? It's for a good cause!

[Robert Fischer]

If a pick 5 had 5 MDSP or MDCL races, I'd throw a party. I love those races.

Give me a stake and I want to pass.

To each his own.

EMD4ME has a point.

One of the significant models in playing a multi-race wager is 'Race Selection'.
Part of Race Selection is the ability to sniff out which races are clear-cut 'separate the contender' races, and which races are 'survival' races.

"All professions are conspiracies against the laity :p" - George Bernard-Shaw

[Prof.Factor]

Can you name an honest sport then?
No ... I only follow horse racing. ;-)

[biggestal99]

What makes you to believe that inside money do not appear in the exchange? Also how big are the exchange positions? How they compare to the official pools?

well for one thing, all exchange bettors are registered.

Betfair knows exactly who is placing the bets.

They have sophisticated software to detect inside betting.

at the track the only thing that needs to be registered is green and has numbers on it.

The exchange betting is vastly superior to on track PM betting.

you are only matching bets with other registered bettors not with insiders.

You personally would love it. (i believe)

Allan

[Prof.Factor]

Since we're delusional and you're the one complaining, maybe you can enlighten everyone. What does PROF stand for in your name? Thanks in advance, dude. :faint:
What post do you think I'm complaining?
I'm voicing my opinion, same as you, except mine is derived from decades of
observance and data evidence.
Prof stands for Professor. I'm a retired computer programmer.

[Prof.Factor]

Depends on what you mean by crooked.

Probably the majority of the races are no fixed in the sense that their exact outcome is predecided (although this can happen from time to time) but this does not mean that the game is not "crooked".

The hidden information that is only known to a limited number of insiders is more than enough to affect the betting markets and convert them to an impossible to beat game for the outsider.

The majority of trainers, owners and jockeys are involved in betting and they always try to find ways to upset the crowd. Drug use, deceiving training patterns and intentionally bad performances are only some of the "tools" employed by insiders in their attempt to inflate the price of their horse when finally it will "go for the race".

The effect of this unfair behavior is multiplied and becomes really dominant in minor leagues where very cheap and low quality horses are running in completely insignificant races who exist only for betting purposes and the paychecks of the horsemen and nothing else..

This is why tracks like Mountaineer, Finger Lakes or Charles Town are destructive for the game as they provide extremely low quality and no chance to make a long term profit by betting their ridiculous races. Instead, in this type of tracks the betting dollar is nothing else than a blood donor to the welfare for the local horsemen.
Excellent post. I could not have said it better. A+

[rastajenk]

Except that nothing about it is correct.

[thaskalos]

The sad fact is that a heavily-taxed gambling game can't tolerate even a SMALL amount of "crookedness". So...it is a small consolation when I hear that "only a small minority of the trainers in this game are cheating".

[Robert Fischer]

The sad fact is that a heavily-taxed gambling game can't tolerate even a SMALL amount of "crookedness". So...it is a small consolation when I hear that "only a small minority of the trainers in this game are cheating".

You are right. It's already a power law distribution with a loooong tail. Hard as hell to get any 'elevation'.

Then we have some impropriety?

Very easy to second guess yourself when attempting to 'think along' with the owners/trainers/vets/jockeys/etc/etc...

all i can really say is:

-see and understand the general situation
//just like in football, when it's 3rd and 15 and you are at the mercy of a blitz and the risk of an interception. Or baseball when you have 2 strikes and no balls, and your batter is at the mercy of a nasty breaking pitch on the corner of the plate... - You must have a general awareness of high risk situations and how the incentives shift in a few generic situational models.

-Incentives incentives
//Make sure you understand the incentives. Can't overemphasize.


-Be Willing to pass
//No 'called 3rd strikes' in horseplaying. There's a new race coming up soon, and a new card tomorrow. Poker saying = "If you've been playing poker for half an hour and you still don't know who the patsy is, you're the patsy."
Be smart enough to say "I don't know".

[elhelmete]

Can we get back to Santa Anita bashing please? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[EasyGoer89]

The sad fact is that a heavily-taxed gambling game can't tolerate even a SMALL amount of "crookedness". So...it is a small consolation when I hear that "only a small minority of the trainers in this game are cheating".

This is an incredible point, the margin of error is so small that even a very small 'tax' that goes into the cheaters pockets is too much, the punishments for cheating aren't nearly what they need to be considering the takeout rates. If you dine at a 5 star restaurant and pay 5 star prices, you need 5 star food and 5 star service, racing industry charging 5 star prices but not delivering a 5 star game as far as the customer goes.

[green80]

Are you just exaggerating for effect...or are you being serious?

OK, I'll make it 2%. Not that the ill intent is not there, it just doesn't work out as planned most of the time. I am privy to a whole lot of inside info but I couldn't make a living betting on it.

[RunForTheRoses]

The Late P4 at Gulfstream had 3 stakes races and the results were very chaotic, just sayin.

[CincyHorseplayer]

The Late P4 at Gulfstream had 3 stakes races and the results were very chaotic, just sayin.

If I see even 1 race on the turf course go to a horse who beats out what my research says are 3 archetypal turf winners and those 3 are minor awards at best I hit the brakes on plays instantly. Can't quite put my finger on it even with extensive looks at times but I know I can lose scads of money if I keep on. Yesterday I scorched GP turf. This is after stopping playing it for several days before Christmas. Had a solid and even historical model for this place and poof it went up in smoke. Not sure if it is rail placement or not. It won't show up in running styles. I suspect a rail bias today. But longstory short I felt chaos today too but moreso on turf than dirt.

[Inner Dirt]

I don't know the guidelines, is the date and race number set in stone if it fills or do they have a certain time frame on being able to move it? I realize what is in the best interest of the track can be in the opposite interest of the horse player. One thing I find very annoying is when there is a large multi day Pick Six carryover and a second or later leg is full of first time starters in a route race. Most of them don't even have a work close to race distance and when the race is the second leg or later a person can't even toss in a few that look live on the tote board. Obviously having a race of that liking hurts the players chances while increasing the chances of it carrying over again.

[elhelmete]

Condition books, entry dates and draws should all be in sync with the scheduled carryover days. :lol:

[green80]

Races are usually filled and carded 5-7 days in advance and no way to know the carryover until the day before.

[elhelmete]

Races are usually filled and carded 5-7 days in advance and no way to know the carryover until the day before.

I know :D

[airford1]

Professional Wrestling.
Baseball when Pete Rose is the Manager.

[ultracapper]

I'd be surprised if, adjusted for field-size, mdn/clm winners avg higher odds.

I concentrate all my bets on maidens and N2Ls, reason being, I did a study years ago and found that in SoCal the average payout in these races was better than the average payout for all other races. I haven't re-examined this info in more than 6 or 7 years now, so it may have changed, but, at the time, the higher average payouts in these restricted races was better than marginal.

I found that handicapping maidens and N2Ls was easily the best use of my handicapping efforts.