Blaming the Jockey

[arw629]

Rarely when I make a bet and lose do I blame the jockey...Is there anyone else of my kind on this website? I am constantly reading posts where posters complain about bad rides and bad jockeys and I just don't get it. Do people realize that sometimes a horse might wake up a certain day and just not feel 100% or maybe a little lethargic or sluggish but not to the degree where a trainer or vet would notice eluding to a scratch? Could that be a reason a horse doesn't perform in a manner a Jockey would have liked them to? Do all of the posters on here feel the same when they wake up everyday? Do you feel the same after riding in a van from Aqueduct to Gulfstream and have to run against the PA posters from Florida in a one turn mile? Do people realize that not every horse is a push button horse and might not be able to make moves when the jockey wants? I mean there are so many variables as to why a horse can get beat and I'm confident that these jockeys who spend their lives on horses are doing their best everyday. Yes, bad rides do happen but let's remember that they are riding animals and not driving Nascar.

I'd just like to thank all of the jockeys out there this holiday season for all of the excellent work you do every day! Happy Holidays!!!

[EMD4ME]

Rarely when I make a bet and lose do I blame the jockey...Is there anyone else of my kind on this website? I am constantly reading posts where posters complain about bad rides and bad jockeys and I just don't get it. Do people realize that sometimes a horse might wake up a certain day and just not feel 100% or maybe a little lethargic or sluggish but not to the degree where a trainer or vet would notice eluding to a scratch? Could that be a reason a horse doesn't perform in a manner a Jockey would have liked them to? Do all of the posters on here feel the same when they wake up everyday? Do you feel the same after riding in a van from Aqueduct to Gulfstream and have to run against the PA posters from Florida in a one turn mile? Do people realize that not every horse is a push button horse and might not be able to make moves when the jockey wants? I mean there are so many variables as to why a horse can get beat and I'm confident that these jockeys who spend their lives on horses are doing their best everyday. Yes, bad rides do happen but let's remember that they are riding animals and not driving Nascar.

I'd just like to thank all of the jockeys out there this holiday season for all of the excellent work you do every day! Happy Holidays!!!

Let me guess, you're a software player who doesn't live and die off replays?

Did you watch Pico Uno at the SPA this summer? Granted he's a NY bred but the horse broke well, was choked back choppily to terrible position in a slow opening quarter and had exactly a ZERO percent chance after being choked to death (from near the lead to 6 lengths back).

If the jock simply let the horse run under a slight rate or naturally, the horse would've jogged.

Further proof was the horse's subsequent performances.

To answer your question: No, I am of the absolute belief that a jockey can absolutely destroy a horse's chances.

Here's an analogy. I'm Phil Jackson and back in the day, I place MJ as the team's center along with putting 4 Bill Cartwright's along with him.

It is infuriating in the 1 in 500 chance, that a jock does something so detrimental to their mount. There is NOTHING wrong with errupting like a volcano when you as the handicapper, know every tendency of a horse, know exactly how it should be ridden, you've SEEN a jock-the SAME jock ride the horse appropriately AND THEN see the jock/connections decide to just take a horse out of it's best position.

Part of the game but still infuriating.

I thank the jockeys as well. Tough job and despite all my words, god bless them.

[arw629]

Let me guess, you're a software player who doesn't live and die off replays?

Did you watch Pico Uno at the SPA this summer? Granted he's a NY bred but the horse broke well, was choked back choppily to terrible position in a slow opening quarter and had exactly a ZERO percent chance after being choked to death (from near the lead to 6 lengths back).

If the jock simply let the horse run under a slight rate or naturally, the horse would've jogged.

Further proof was the horse's subsequent performances.

To answer your question: No, I am of the absolute belief that a jockey can absolutely destroy a horse's chances.

Here's an analogy. I'm Phil Jackson and back in the day, I place MJ as the team's center along with putting 4 Bill Cartwright's along with him.

It is infuriating in the 1 in 500 chance, that a jock does something so detrimental to their mount. There is NOTHING wrong with errupting like a volcano when you as the handicapper, know every tendency of a horse, know exactly how it should be ridden, you've SEEN a jock-the SAME jock ride the horse appropriately AND THEN see the jock/connections decide to just take a horse out of it's best position.

Part of the game but still infuriating.

I thank the jockeys as well. Tough job and despite all my words, god bless them.

I'm not a software player. I watch replays. Do you ever wonder if jockeys are riding to instructions when they wrangle speed horses? I don't know the answer to this question, and I agree it can be frustrating but there are other variables to consider instead of immediately blaming the jockey. Listening to constant complaining about bad riding is like going out to eat with in-laws and their steak is never done enough and always gets sent back....Is it really not always done enough or do some people just never get what they expect?

[no breathalyzer]

I will never understand people that think jockey doesn't matter... even the best slip up time to time... when you put a bozo on horse some many things can go wrong

[arw629]

I will never understand people that think jockey doesn't matter... even the best slip up time to time... when you put a bozo on horse some many things can go wrong

Jockey definitely matters...the best jockeys are smarter, get better mounts, and make less mistakes....the point of my post was to humble the negative jockey posters ...something tells me I'm failing

[EMD4ME]

Jockey definitely matters...the best jockeys are smarter, get better mounts, and make less mistakes....the point of my post was to humble the negative jockey posters ...something tells me I'm failing

I don't know, as I stare at my profit for the year, something tells me I'm right in knowing jockeys can only destroy a mount.

[DeltaLover]

I am always listening to people whining about bad rides when losing but almost never heard anyone saying that he won because an opponent rider made a critical mistake that cost him the race.

[no breathalyzer]

I am always listening to people whining about bad rides when losing but almost never heard anyone saying that he won because an opponent rider who made a critical mistake that cost him the race.

i will point this out all the time.. i feel very grateful when it accrues

[EMD4ME]

I am always listening to people whining about bad rides when losing but almost never heard anyone saying that he won because an opponent rider made a critical mistake that cost him the race.

Except for me ;)

[DeltaLover]

Jockey definitely matters...the best jockeys are smarter, get better mounts, and make less mistakes....the point of my post was to humble the negative jockey posters ...something tells me I'm failing

When it comes to who is going to win the race, the jockeys matters of course.

As any other athlete their abilities are not equal and some of them are better than others.

For betting purposes though, the differences in ability are very well encapsulated to the markets to the point of equalizing them.

Same thing applies to a good extend for horses who had some serious trouble in their recent races. I am a firm believer that the value of these kind of factors (including things like track biases, paddock inspection and tote observation) consist part of the most over-rated myths in this game.

[EasyGoer89]

Jockey definitely matters...the best jockeys are smarter, get better mounts, and make less mistakes....the point of my post was to humble the negative jockey posters ...something tells me I'm failing

Sometimes it's the jocks fault sometimes the jock rides well and the horse doesn't fire, it's pretty important to be able to distinguish the difference for people who have designs on being elite players. If a gambler errantly blames a jock that's recipe for that gambler to bet on a horse in the future who didn't fire vs one who fired and got beat by the ride. Sharp players know the difference.

[ReplayRandall]

Sometimes it's the jocks fault sometimes the jock rides well and the horse doesn't fire, it's pretty important to be able to distinguish the difference for people who have designs on being elite players. If a gambler errantly blames a jock that's recipe for that gambler to bet on a horse in the future who didn't fire vs one who fired and got beat by the ride. Sharp players know the difference.

Then how would YOU know SRU, did a "sharp" player let you know the difference?.....BTW, why are you still here posting?

[arw629]

Sometimes it's the jocks fault sometimes the jock rides well and the horse doesn't fire, it's pretty important to be able to distinguish the difference for people who have designs on being elite players. If a gambler errantly blames a jock that's recipe for that gambler to bet on a horse in the future who didn't fire vs one who fired and got beat by the ride. Sharp players know the difference.

Sharp players don't complain.

[arw629]

I don't know, as I stare at my profit for the year, something tells me I'm right in knowing jockeys can only destroy a mount.

I have an open mind and you can convince me if you'd like to try...send me your bets beforehand and I'll piggyback you in 2017 ...a year from now we can see if I see it your way

[EasyGoer89]

Then how would YOU know SRU, did a "sharp" player let you know the difference?.....BTW, why are you still here posting?

I've heard through the grapevine as well as reading your posts, I never once said I'm sharp, that's up to you to decide by reading my words. As far as the other stuff goes, live and let live.

[menifee]

1. Jockey can make the best horse lose.
2. Jockey can't make a bad horse win.
3. Jockey can make an average horse win via trip or pace.
4. During lifetime, jockeys cannot make bettors win or lose as law of large numbers governs. .

[EMD4ME]

1. Jockey can make the best horse lose.
2. Jockey can't make a bad horse win.
3. Jockey can make an average horse win via trip or pace.
4. During lifetime, jockeys cannot make bettors win or lose as law of large numbers governs. .

Sharp post. It actually is that simple. I will add the closest that any jock I ever saw do #2 was Ramon..He was amazing. He was by far the best at #3.

I seriously never ever found myself critiquing ramons rides..not even once.

[Tom]

1. Jockey can make the best horse lose.
2. Jockey can't make a bad horse win.
3. Jockey can make an average horse win via trip or pace.
4. During lifetime, jockeys cannot make bettors win or lose as law of large numbers governs. .

5. Jockey can "grab" defeat from the jaws of victory.

[Inner Dirt]

I agree with the OP to an extent some people are overly critical of jockeys. A lot of people falsely think a switch to their favorite rider will move a horse up a half dozen lengths. I don't ever think Russell Baze went off at higher than 5-1 in No Cal even if he was on the worst horse in the race. My favorite idiot story of someone bad mouthing a jockey was the comment an angry better made watching a slow motion reply where his horse got the ultimate worst of a head bob. He yelled "That stupid jockey didn't hold the horses head down at the wire."

[EMD4ME]

I agree with the OP to an extent some people are overly critical of jockeys. A lot of people falsely think a switch to their favorite rider will move a horse up a half dozen lengths. I don't ever think Russell Baze went off at higher than 5-1 in No Cal even if he was on the worst horse in the race. My favorite idiot story of someone bad mouthing a jockey was the comment an angry better made watching a slow motion reply where his horse got the ultimate worst of a head bob. He yelled "That stupid jockey didn't hold the horses head down at the wire."

My favorite is when an idiot says look at this massive positive jockey change.

What the idiot doesn't acknowledge is that the horse got a picture perfect ride in it's last 2.

At best, the new jockey can only duplicate the ride.

However, sometimes a switch to a "good" jockey can be more intentful, so I keep that in mind as well.

[EMD4ME]

5. Jockey can "grab" defeat from the jaws of victory.

Yes! One of my favorite sayings at the track.

[rsetup]

I seriously never ever found myself critiquing ramons rides..not even once.

If memory serves me correctly, a couple of his rides on Gio Ponti were BRUTAL.

[EMD4ME]

If memory serves me correctly, a couple of his rides on Gio Ponti were BRUTAL.

Give me the date, let's discuss. In the 1 in a gazillion times he ever made a mistake, it was totally understandable. That man knew his horse, his competition, studied replays intently, pace, bias etc. At least his trouble, if any, was with a prepared mind and a calculated decision that happened to go wrong.

Sort of like betting a 99/1 shot, losing by a nose after a ton of trouble, is a good bet, despite the loss.

[Inner Dirt]

How about the once great rider who stays in the saddle a couple years too many when he skills and decision making have greatly eroded, yet his past reputation still greatly depresses the odds of his mounts? One that comes to mind in a glaring way was Bill Shoemaker. The last half dozen years or so he was extremely gun shy. Unless a hole was big enough to drive a cement truck through he would either wait or take the wide way around. If you had a deep closer in a full field it was a given the over the hill Shoe was going to cost you a couple lengths over an average rider. Money problems kept him in the saddle way too long and his name got him mounts he did not deserve in his later riding years.

Then he retires, takes up training and has a solo car accident while drunk. He blames everybody but himself and even claims his high BAC was because of drugs they gave him in the hospital. Then he sues everybody and their brother, even those who helped save his life. A real piece of trash if you ask me.

[pondman]

Some jockeys make a living winning. Others get paid to ride a loser. But most of that is built into the economy.

[EMD4ME]

Some jockeys make a living winning. Others get paid to ride a loser. But most of that is built into the economy.

Aaron Gryder. Total minion.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Many trainers will have "go to" riders, and not necessarily one of the leading riders, that constitute positive intent when they switch to them. Of course sometimes when a horse is ready to pop, a switch to a leading rider can be a solid positive.

I also place a lot of stock in seeing a rider who has had previous success with the horse get up.

I used to do a lot of pleasure riding. There were definitely horses that I just synched up with better. I'm sure the same thing happens with jockeys and horses, and again it isn't always a top rider that matches well with a horse.

I remember one time at the track a friend and I were watching a race. He commented, "the jockey rides like he's on Bonanza." One of the best lines I ever heard.

If you could pick up two pieces of inside information on jockeys I'd say it would be this. Who takes care of his body and does strength training, and who knows how to read a racing form. Frankly, I'd love to see an annual jockey arm wrestling contest, both arms.

If you want to get insight into a jockey ride, start with the trainer. Some trainers insist on giving jockeys detailed instructions and some trainers just tell the jockey to do what they do.

If you don't think a jockey knows when a horse is off even by just a little, you've never ridden a horse.

Be careful of confirmation bias when watching a replay. If you start out believing you got a crap ride, don't be surprised when you think the replay confirms it, no matter what actually happened.

Smart is a first rate attribute for a jockey to have. Which means Calvin Borel's success as a rider had a different explanation.

[no breathalyzer]

My favorite is when an idiot says look at this massive positive jockey change.

What the idiot doesn't acknowledge is that the horse got a picture perfect ride in it's last 2.

At best, the new jockey can only duplicate the ride.

However, sometimes a switch to a "good" jockey can be more intentful, so I keep that in mind as well.


might be true.. but some jockeys no matter what they do still ride like they have cement blocks on back........>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :D Dilly :D

[Parkview_Pirate]

Smart is a first rate attribute for a jockey to have. Which means Calvin Borel's success as a rider had a different explanation.

While I wouldn't argue that Borel doesn't interview like he's a genius, he's certainly shown he's pretty savvy as a rider. I'm still in awe of his Derby winning ride on Mine That Bird.

What I do find puzzling about him as that for years he struck me as a middle of the road Kentucky based jock, who then got hot and was all world for a while. Most jocks with talent start out fast, then fade - or stay near the top.

[Parkview_Pirate]

How about the once great rider who stays in the saddle a couple years too many when he skills and decision making have greatly eroded, yet his past reputation still greatly depresses the odds of his mounts? One that comes to mind in a glaring way was Bill Shoemaker. The last half dozen years or so he was extremely gun shy. Unless a hole was big enough to drive a cement truck through he would either wait or take the wide way around. If you had a deep closer in a full field it was a given the over the hill Shoe was going to cost you a couple lengths over an average rider. Money problems kept him in the saddle way too long and his name got him mounts he did not deserve in his later riding years.

Then he retires, takes up training and has a solo car accident while drunk. He blames everybody but himself and even claims his high BAC was because of drugs they gave him in the hospital. Then he sues everybody and their brother, even those who helped save his life. A real piece of trash if you ask me.

So what you're saying is, jockeys are humans?

I didn't know the guy personally, but way, way before I got into racing I could name one jockey who's reputation as a great rider seemed to dominant the racing world. And that would be "The Shoe". Yeah, maybe he didn't have the best of times after his riding days were over, but his actions are easily explained if by chance he had a greedy lawyer.

[Parkview_Pirate]

... Do you ever wonder if jockeys are riding to instructions when they wrangle speed horses?

I think this explains many "bad" rides - riding to instructions. I'd argue that the superior handicappers like Beyer or EMD4ME should be pointing their fingers at the trainers far more often than the jocks.

I rarely experience a race I lose because of a bad ride, when the jock is trying. Riding a horse is like driving a car - many, many decisions are made before and during a race, and many mistakes are made. For every race I get jockey error that may have cost me the race, I get ten races where the jock provides essentially a perfect trip - and if the horse is good enough, a nice winner.

Of all the ways to lose a race, getting a bad ride is very low in the list, IMHO.

[Inner Dirt]

How about the once great rider who stays in the saddle a couple years too many when he skills and decision making have greatly eroded, yet his past reputation still greatly depresses the odds of his mounts? One that comes to mind in a glaring way was Bill Shoemaker. The last half dozen years or so he was extremely gun shy. Unless a hole was big enough to drive a cement truck through he would either wait or take the wide way around. If you had a deep closer in a full field it was a given the over the hill Shoe was going to cost you a couple lengths over an average rider. Money problems kept him in the saddle way too long and his name got him mounts he did not deserve in his later riding years.

Then he retires, takes up training and has a solo car accident while drunk. He blames everybody but himself and even claims his high BAC was because of drugs they gave him in the hospital. Then he sues everybody and their brother, even those who helped save his life. A real piece of trash if you ask me.
So what you're saying is, jockeys are humans?

I didn't know the guy personally, but way, way before I got into racing I could name one jockey who's reputation as a great rider seemed to dominant the racing world. And that would be "The Shoe". Yeah, maybe he didn't have the best of times after his riding days were over, but his actions are easily explained if by chance he had a greedy lawyer.

Let me guess you are one of those "It is always someone else's fault" people. No one forces you to listen to a "greedy lawyer". I have never heard in my life heard someone filing as many lawsuits against as many people as Shoemaker did. He put a lot of people's careers in jeopardy with his lawsuits. He ran off the road because he was drunk no one else was near him. He rode way longer than he should have because he was near broke as he hooked up with high society gold diggers and he had a big ego combined with a little brain. His attics were well known to anyone who lived in the area and followed racing.

[classhandicapper]

Rarely when I make a bet and lose do I blame the jockey...Is there anyone else of my kind on this website?

I don't complain very often.

I think people tend to have an exaggerated view of the rider's role in the trip and focus heavily on what went wrong with their own horse without paying enough attention to everything that went wrong with some of the other horses in the race (especially when they get lucky to win). I'm sure I'm guilty of that too.

Some of this stuff is as simple as how well the horse breaks, the instructions that were given before the race, or what they are trying to do to develop the horse. Sometimes it's even simpler than that. The horse wasn't sharp that day and didn't cooperate.

[Inner Dirt]

I don't complain very often.

I think people tend to have an exaggerated view of the rider's role in the trip and focus heavily on what went wrong with their own horse without paying enough attention to everything that went wrong with some of the other horses in the race (especially when they get lucky to win). I'm sure I'm guilty of that too.

Some of this stuff is as simple as how well the horse breaks, the instructions that were given before the race, or what they are trying to do to develop the horse. Sometimes it's even simpler than that. The horse wasn't sharp that day and didn't cooperate.

I wish thoroughbred racing had the trainers mic'd up 24-7. When I see a jockey do something I didn't expect, like not send a speed horse in what appears to be a pace less race I always wonder why. Was he told to rate the animal? Did he push the go button and the horse didn't respond? Or did both the jockey and the trainer not read the Racing Form and not realize it would be an easy race to steal?

[classhandicapper]

I wish thoroughbred racing had the trainers mic'd up 24-7. When I see a jockey do something I didn't expect, like not send a speed horse in what appears to be a pace less race I always wonder why. Was he told to rate the animal? Did he push the go button and the horse didn't respond? Or did both the jockey and the trainer not read the Racing Form and not realize it would be an easy race to steal?

I can only speak from limited personal experience. The guys I own with always discuss the race privately before we go to the track and then discuss it again with the trainer in the paddock. We go as far as to discuss possible track biases and where we want to be positioned (inside or outside). The trainer then discusses it with the jockey.

The biggest problem is that you don't know how you own horse is going to break and who else is going to go or choose to sit. It's kind of like Mike Tyson's quote on boxing. "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth". So what generally happens with us is that we have a general idea of what "ideal" would be, but in the end the jockey will adjust once the gate opens and we get punched in the mouth. ;)

[EMD4ME]

Irad Ortiz, riding from post 1.......

If he is not on a dead send need the leader, you can almost guaranty he is not sending for the lead.

That's not trainer instruction, when you see it 80-90% of the time. That's jockey tendency. Important to know your jocks.

This one example is 1 main reason why he is not a complete rider.

[classhandicapper]

Irad Ortiz, riding from post 1.......

If he is not on a dead send need the leader, you can almost guaranty he is not sending for the lead.

That's not trainer instruction, when you see it 80-90% of the time. That's jockey tendency. Important to know your jocks.

This one example is 1 main reason why he is not a complete rider.

Unquestionably there are riding styles, but that was true as far back as I can remember. I remember doing a lot of cursing back in the days of Angel Cordero and Jorge Velasquez when Jorge took back on my lone speed or Angel got involved in a duel with a horse I knew could sit.

Somewhere along the line the riding got less aggressive. If I had to guess I'd say it started when grass racing became more popular and a few of the big tracks went synthetic. Aggression does not pay off as much on those surfaces and some of it probably carried over to dirt. Also, the dirt tracks themselves are deeper (for safety reasons) and are probably less speed favoring. So some small adjustment was probably warranted on dirt.

I don't disagree though. If you have the main speed and you don't send, you are making a mistake in most races on most tracks/surfaces.

[EMD4ME]

Unquestionably there are riding styles, but that was true as far back as I can remember. I remember doing a lot of cursing back in the days of Angel Cordero and Jorge Velasquez when Jorge took back on my lone speed or Angel got involved in a duel with a horse I knew could sit.

Somewhere along the line the riding got less aggressive. If I had to guess I'd say it started when grass racing became more popular and a few of the big tracks went synthetic. Aggression does not pay off as much on those surfaces and some of it probably carried over to dirt. Also, the dirt tracks themselves are deeper (for safety reasons) and are probably less speed favoring. So some small adjustment was probably warranted on dirt.

I don't disagree though. If you have the main speed and you don't send, you are making a mistake in most races on most tracks/surfaces.

Dec 2nd 3rd race. He absolutely massacred his mount. There was ZERO speed in the race. PP 2, the eventual leader (due to Irad's passive style) had run once and had shared the lead (in a slow opening quarter AND WAS IN AN ALL OUT QUARTER HORSE DRIVE TO GET TO A SHARING POSITION in that horse's 1st start). Irad rode post 1. Petrov. Massacre of a butcher job. Chokes out to defer (from a co-leader position), then uses a ton of horse to hold his spot co last. Horse ran hard for 1/2 plus when all he had to do, was let the horse run to his natural gait, hold a short lead (naturally) and run when needed in the latter part of the race.

His mount WAS TONS THE BEST, except for the fact that his mount had Irad Ortiz on it. Poor horse.

His brother Jose, who was on a STONE COLD CLOSER, somehow sat 1st over, got the jump on his brother and was desperate to hold off his on coming/flying brother.

Anyone who watches that race and tells me that I critique jockeys too much, should get a mortgage cash out refinance and a home equity loan and bet all their money everyday at NYRA.

I'll be happy to take it.

[aaron]

Dec 2nd 3rd race. He absolutely massacred his mount. There was ZERO speed in the race. PP 2, the eventual leader (due to Irad's passive style) had run once and had shared the lead (in a slow opening quarter AND WAS IN AN ALL OUT QUARTER HORSE DRIVE TO GET TO A SHARING POSITION in that horse's 1st start). Irad rode post 1. Petrov. Massacre of a butcher job. Chokes out to defer (from a co-leader position), then uses a ton of horse to hold his spot co last. Horse ran hard for 1/2 plus when all he had to do, was let the horse run to his natural gait, hold a short lead (naturally) and run when needed in the latter part of the race.

His mount WAS TONS THE BEST, except for the fact that his mount had Irad Ortiz on it. Poor horse.

His brother Jose, who was on a STONE COLD CLOSER, somehow sat 1st over, got the jump on his brother and was desperate to hold off his on coming/flying brother.

Anyone who watches that race and tells me that I critique jockeys too much, should get a mortgage cash out refinance and a home equity loan and bet all their money everyday at NYRA.

I'll be happy to take it.
I remember that race and I couldn't believe, he didn't send. It is funny, going back in time,I remember Cordero,Bailey and Dominguez using tactics,I didn't expect and they were almost always correct. I had confidence in them. I don't feel the same about todays jockeys.

[EMD4ME]

I remember that race and I couldn't believe, he didn't send. It is funny, going back in time,I remember Cordero,Bailey and Dominguez using tactics,I didn't expect and they were almost always correct. I had confidence in them. I don't feel the same about todays jockeys.

I do believe it, it took me bit to adjust but I have. I remember studying that race and saying: Oh no, Irad on best horse from rail, I can't single him as the horse has a weak rider. I used the 5 as well, as the horse I believe was purchased privately from CBY. Hit pick 5 that paid $8,460 for .50. If I strictly cap, and leave jockey's out of it, I lose that pick 5.

I agree, I remember countless races where Cordero, Bailey and Dominguez totally shocked the crowd with tactics but they almost all worked out. In fact, they undressed their "peers" over and over again.

[2low]

Rarely when I make a bet and lose do I blame the jockey...Is there anyone else of my kind on this website? I am constantly reading posts where posters complain about bad rides and bad jockeys and I just don't get it. Do people realize that sometimes a horse might wake up a certain day and just not feel 100% or maybe a little lethargic or sluggish but not to the degree where a trainer or vet would notice eluding to a scratch? Could that be a reason a horse doesn't perform in a manner a Jockey would have liked them to? Do all of the posters on here feel the same when they wake up everyday? Do you feel the same after riding in a van from Aqueduct to Gulfstream and have to run against the PA posters from Florida in a one turn mile? Do people realize that not every horse is a push button horse and might not be able to make moves when the jockey wants? I mean there are so many variables as to why a horse can get beat and I'm confident that these jockeys who spend their lives on horses are doing their best everyday. Yes, bad rides do happen but let's remember that they are riding animals and not driving Nascar.

I'd just like to thank all of the jockeys out there this holiday season for all of the excellent work you do every day! Happy Holidays!!!

I've never been able to figure out how to get my money back from a bad ride, so I don't worry about it. I also don't complain when I win because another horse got a bad ride.

All you can do is stack one horse up against the field and make a bet or not. What happens after the gate opens is up to luck, which I haven't been able to figure out how to control. The cards come as they will.

[Inner Dirt]

I do believe it, it took me bit to adjust but I have. I remember studying that race and saying: Oh no, Irad on best horse from rail, I can't single him as the horse has a weak rider. I used the 5 as well, as the horse I believe was purchased privately from CBY. Hit pick 5 that paid $8,460 for .50. If I strictly cap, and leave jockey's out of it, I lose that pick 5.

I agree, I remember countless races where Cordero, Bailey and Dominguez totally shocked the crowd with tactics but they almost all worked out. In fact, they undressed their "peers" over and over again.

I think it was the 1987 winter meet at Santa Anita and Cordero just showed up from back East. I liked his mount which was a speed horse named Barb's Relic. The track was strongly favoring inside speed but out of concern that Cordero could be unaware I "chickened out" and bet to place only which I rarely do. I did make my first $500 bet. It was a sprint and Angel actually whipped the horse out of the gate and steered it right to the rail. It was never challenged and won with a couple lengths to spare. My act of cowardice cost me quite a bit. I got $5.60 to place and I think I remember a $14 win price.

[EMD4ME]

I've never been able to figure out how to get my money back from a bad ride, so I don't worry about it. I also don't complain when I win because another horse got a bad ride.

All you can do is stack one horse up against the field and make a bet or not. What happens after the gate opens is up to luck, which I haven't been able to figure out how to control. The cards come as they will.

I suggest you follow certain poster's notes of bad rides. Maybe start with this one....
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129897

Unless you don't like $27 horses :cool:

[2low]

I suggest you follow certain poster's notes of bad rides. Maybe start with this one....
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129897

Unless you don't like $27 horses :cool:

Thread is way too long for me to read through, but I assume you are talking about trip note guys making bank on bad rides next out. They deserve every penny if so.:ThmbUp: