View Full Version : Desormeux questions photo finish system
upthecreek
12-13-2016, 03:24 PM
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/218366/desormeaux-questions-photo-finish-system
I think the number of wins he was "deprived" of is nowhere close the number he missed failing to persevere on his horses. :bang:
HuggingTheRail
12-13-2016, 03:32 PM
He thinks it should be at the eighth pole....
Psychotic Parakeet
12-13-2016, 03:35 PM
I thought all tracks switched to digital processing a long time ago, but apparently not. Anyways, 'Meaux has always been a prima donna, so it sort of sounds like sour grapes to me.
Kent clearly doesn't know what he is talking about.
dilanesp
12-13-2016, 04:07 PM
It's physically impossible to move the line, even with the older film photography systems.
Kent clearly doesn't know what he is talking about.
And yet he never stops! :bang:
the little guy
12-13-2016, 04:22 PM
Kent is the gift that keeps on giving ( and sometimes taking ).
arw629
12-13-2016, 04:29 PM
It's physically impossible to move the line, even with the older film photography systems.
I'm pretty sure the camera angle can change with time and elements but I'm also pretty sure tracks calibrate them regularly to prevent that from happening
steveb
12-13-2016, 04:35 PM
he is not completely wrong though.
in australia(and probably elsewhere) it is obvious at some (minor) tracks, that the mirror image is not aligned properly.
thus some close results are questionable.
HalvOnHorseracing
12-13-2016, 04:38 PM
If I'm a steward I'd apply the philosophy of Sheriff Cobb from Silverado. We'll give him a fair trail followed by a first class hanging.
johnhannibalsmith
12-13-2016, 04:43 PM
Anyone that truly believes that racing 'insiders' by default have some amazing grasp of basic concepts of the business need only be reminded by this example that it is worth a reconsider.
AltonKelsey
12-13-2016, 05:18 PM
Apparently the notion that the camera is not an instamatic, and is ONLY capturing data AT what's defined as the finish, is beyond many folks.
I have to presume that even in the digital age, the methodology is the same, as it's pretty much foolproof.
Kent needs an intervention.
HalvOnHorseracing
12-13-2016, 06:12 PM
Back in the old days some tracks would post the photo finish pictures for people to review. One particular race there was a four horse photo finish. They posted a photo with a line for the win, and the same photo with a different line for the show. Some guy looks at the two photos and starts yelling, they used the same picture for both. When I told him all the horses noses were actually on the finish line he looked at me like I was insane. He couldn't get past the idea that they just snapped a picture when the first horse passed the finish line and then put the two separate finish lines on it. He was also convinced the horse that finished third wouldn't have been third if they had waited until it hit the finish line since the horse that was fourth was coming fast and would have caught it by the finish. No amount of explaining was going to sway him.
AltonKelsey
12-13-2016, 06:13 PM
EDIT: NO POLITICS in horse racing sections.
EMD4ME
12-13-2016, 06:20 PM
Back in the old days some tracks would post the photo finish pictures for people to review. One particular race there was a four horse photo finish. They posted a photo with a line for the win, and the same photo with a different line for the show. Some guy looks at the two photos and starts yelling, they used the same picture for both. When I told him all the horses noses were actually on the finish line he looked at me like I was insane. He couldn't get past the idea that they just snapped a picture when the first horse passed the finish line and then put the two separate finish lines on it. He was also convinced the horse that finished third wouldn't have been third if they had waited until it hit the finish line since the horse that was fourth was coming fast and would have caught it by the finish. No amount of explaining was going to sway him.
That was me ;) :lol: :lol: :lol: but.........
I don't think it's fair or correct to snap 1 picture and determine all finishing positions from 1 shot.
Are you saying that a horse who wins by 3 (2 horses are dead even when the leader hits the wire but 1 of them is dead tired vs the other one who is flying) and the 2 horses behind that horse should be judged by 1 still shot that is taken when the leader hits the wire???
PA, yes, I know. By now I should've asked to be shown the photo finish equipment and been given a tour. You're 100% right. It's on my bucket list.
Are you saying that a horse who wins by 3 (2 horses are dead even when the leader hits the wire but 1 of them is dead tired vs the other one who is flying) and the 2 horses behind that horse should be judged by 1 still shot that is taken when the leader hits the wire???
You're pulling our leg, right? After all the discussion on this you can't possibly think that is how this is done.
EMD4ME
12-13-2016, 06:25 PM
You're pulling our leg, right? After all the discussion on this you can't possibly think that is how this is done.
Of course I don't. But its what Halvey just said IS being done.
Edit: ADD:
I think he's pulling my leg! :)
Of course I don't. But its what Halvey just said IS being done.
Edit: ADD:
I think he's pulling my leg! :)
I think he was saying that is what somebody else thought and he couldn't get the guy to understand otherwise.
EMD4ME
12-13-2016, 06:31 PM
I think he was saying that is what somebody else thought and he couldn't get the guy to understand otherwise.
Maybe I misread it but I read it 4x.
Sounds like Halvey was mocking the guy who wants another still shot taken as each horse hits the fake line.
I know I want a still shot taken for each horse hitting the fake line.
Did I misread it? If I did, my apologies. Maybe Halvey can confirm please?
SuperPickle
12-13-2016, 07:25 PM
Here's the fascinating thing. There is a photo finish issue but as usual Kent has no idea what he's talking about.
The issue isn't what he says it is. The photo finishes are accurate.
It's the advances in camera technology, cost and resolution. If you use a high end resolution camera and blow up the image enough you're almost always to see distance between two images.
Look at this way. With the standard resolution 20-30 years ago if you blew up an image it would just blur. With current technology and the technology moving forward this won't happen. Think about how good the cameras on cell phones have improved in the last 5-10 years.
Also the cost is dropping so it'll be cost effective for tracks to add it.
So the million dollar question is where do you stop? Theoretically you can keep blowing it up forever if the resolution is high enough and 99% you'll find a gap. So in the future you could have little or maybe even no dead heats as technology advances.
The other interesting thing is this. As higher end tracks improve their technology and equipment it'll be the top tier tracks first. So a Dead Heat at mountaineer might not be one at Belmont.
dilanesp
12-13-2016, 07:49 PM
That was me ;) :lol: :lol: :lol: but.........
I don't think it's fair or correct to snap 1 picture and determine all finishing positions from 1 shot.
Are you saying that a horse who wins by 3 (2 horses are dead even when the leader hits the wire but 1 of them is dead tired vs the other one who is flying) and the 2 horses behind that horse should be judged by 1 still shot that is taken when the leader hits the wire???
PA, yes, I know. By now I should've asked to be shown the photo finish equipment and been given a tour. You're 100% right. It's on my bucket list.
Its a strip camera, fixed on the line. the film (or digital equivalent) is moving at the same speed as the horses. So it's not a "snapshot" of the horses, but a representation of how each part of each horse looks as she crosses the line.
EMD4ME
12-13-2016, 07:53 PM
Its a strip camera, fixed on the line. the film (or digital equivalent) is moving at the same speed as the horses. So it's not a "snapshot" of the horses, but a representation of how each part of each horse looks as she crosses the line.
That's exactly what I thought.
Help me out. I'm serious. Am I misreading Halvey's Post?
Halvey, for the record I love your blob. Not a dig on you sir :)
JustRalph
12-13-2016, 08:53 PM
He thinks it should be at the eighth pole....
:lol: :lol:
He thinks it is!
AltonKelsey
12-13-2016, 09:46 PM
SuperPickle (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/member.php?u=205653) is right.
The solution is simple, any finish below a certain threshhold, is a dead heat.
Else you'd be talking a 1/50th of an inch deciding the race.
Not sure what's fair, 1/8" 1/4" (seems to high) ? 1/16"?
And there is no politics in that.
AltonKelsey
12-13-2016, 09:48 PM
Of course I don't. But its what Halvey just said IS being done.
Edit: ADD:
I think he's pulling my leg! :)
Rereading Halvey's post, yes, it is confusing.
Let's ask Kent .
Rereading Halvey's post, yes, it is confusing.
Let's ask Kent .
I wouldn't this late into the evening.
NorCalGreg
12-13-2016, 11:01 PM
Maybe I misread it but I read it 4x.
Sounds like Halvey was mocking the guy who wants another still shot taken as each horse hits the fake line.
I know I want a still shot taken for each horse hitting the fake line.
Did I misread it? If I did, my apologies. Maybe Halvey can confirm please?
I'm sorry I stumbled onto this thread :D Every horse that crosses the finish line gets his picture taken--as he crosses the line---right? Even when it doesn't seem to matter, you'll look at a chart and see a DH for 5TH PLACE....even though the purse money is exactly the same....either way.
I had to re-read Halvey's post a few times myself :lol:
dilanesp
12-14-2016, 12:01 AM
SuperPickle (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/member.php?u=205653) is right.
The solution is simple, any finish below a certain threshhold, is a dead heat.
Else you'd be talking a 1/50th of an inch deciding the race.
Not sure what's fair, 1/8" 1/4" (seems to high) ? 1/16"?
And there is no politics in that.
That's what track and field ended up doing. The technology exists to time to 1/1000th of a second, but they don't use it- anything less than 1/100th is a tie.
That's what track and field ended up doing. The technology exists to time to 1/1000th of a second, but they don't use it- anything less than 1/100th is a tie.
Cycling does the same thing.
HalvOnHorseracing
12-14-2016, 12:10 AM
Maybe I misread it but I read it 4x.
Sounds like Halvey was mocking the guy who wants another still shot taken as each horse hits the fake line.
I know I want a still shot taken for each horse hitting the fake line.
Did I misread it? If I did, my apologies. Maybe Halvey can confirm please?
The guy assumed that they took a picture as soon as the first horse hit the finish line. That picture would have contained the four horses because they were all within a length and a quarter of the winner. Then our guy assumed they drew a line for the winner and a separate line for the show horse using that one snap shot instead of taking a second picture when the 3rd/4th place horses crossed the line. In other words, in the snap shot he assumed only the winner had actually reached the finish line. i tried to explain to him that you had a continuous stream of film rolling by, and a very small aperture at the finish line and as each horse entered the aperture it printed on the film. So the snap shot he thought he saw was actually where each horse was when he hit the finish line. As I said, the concept just blew his mind.
What I was explaining was exactly how it was done back then. If you looked at the continuous roll of film you would see all the horses strung out, but the pictures of each respective horse were as they were passing the finish line.
Does that make sense now?
098poi
12-14-2016, 12:21 AM
I wouldn't this late into the evening.
:ThmbUp: Good one!
menifee
12-14-2016, 02:56 AM
If you watch Australia racing - the photo is in instantaneous. Within 3 secs, you know who the winner is. In American racing, it takes a minute if not two minutes. I'm not saying there is chicanery, but why can't American tracks adopt the same systems as Australia. It would silence the conspiracy theorists and give the consumer a better experience.
EasyGoer89
12-14-2016, 05:55 AM
If you watch Australia racing - the photo is in instantaneous. Within 3 secs, you know who the winner is. In American racing, it takes a minute if not two minutes. I'm not saying there is chicanery, but why can't American tracks adopt the same systems as Australia. It would silence the conspiracy theorists and give the consumer a better experience.
Its game playing, they drag out these slow motion replays to create 'suspense' or something, not sure how that helps anyone, just put up the winner when you know who it is, not hard.
If you watch Australia racing - the photo is in instantaneous. Within 3 secs, you know who the winner is. In American racing, it takes a minute if not two minutes. I'm not saying there is chicanery, but why can't American tracks adopt the same systems as Australia. It would silence the conspiracy theorists and give the consumer a better experience.
The photo isn't instantaneous. You aren't seeing the actual photo finish system when they show they replay. What you are seeing is the video feed which is set up much better than most of ours here and uses better equipment.
Its game playing, they drag out these slow motion replays to create 'suspense' or something, not sure how that helps anyone, just put up the winner when you know who it is, not hard.
This is simply another made up "conspiracy" where there is none. The photo is analyzed, the placing judges make a decision, and the result is posted. There is no fake suspense being imposed on customers.
PaceAdvantage
12-14-2016, 10:20 AM
All anyone needs to know is that the photo you see IS the finish. That's it...plain and simple.
What you see is exactly what it looked like the instant the first horse hits the finish line.
If the photo finish camera is on the line (and we have to assume that it is), then there can be no other possible image produced.
The "line" you see on the photo is immaterial to the finish, since the photo IS the finish. It is artificially placed on the image to help the fan and the judges separate what is there in the image in a close race. It doesn't change the photo. With or without the line (ie, you can zoom in really close with a digital photo), you can tell who won. The line isn't necessary...it is just a visual aid.
HuggingTheRail
12-14-2016, 10:39 AM
This is simply another made up "conspiracy" where there is none. The photo is analyzed, the placing judges make a decision, and the result is posted. There is no fake suspense being imposed on customers.
That's correct - sometimes it just takes a bit longer because some of them are harder to wake up :lol:
AltonKelsey
12-14-2016, 11:49 AM
A recent study has shown that 86% of the people that think the photo finish is suspect, also have doubts about the Moon landing.
dilanesp
12-14-2016, 12:11 PM
The photo isn't instantaneous. You aren't seeing the actual photo finish system when they show they replay. What you are seeing is the video feed which is set up much better than most of ours here and uses better equipment.
With a digital system the photo is near instataneous. I've seen Lynx (same company that does digital photos at race tracks) post it on the big screen immediately at track meets. But there are likely regulatory hurdles to immediate posting- the judges / stewards have to review it first.
AltonKelsey
12-14-2016, 12:42 PM
Don't know why they couldn't post it. Has nothing to do with the actual review by the placing judges and official result.
But of course, they need time to go back in the archives to get the photo that matches the result they need to cash.
PaceAdvantage
12-14-2016, 12:56 PM
Why go through all that trouble? All they have to do is key in the ticket with the winning combo before they declare the race official....on the one machine that doesn't lock when the race goes off, that they keep in a closet in the Stewards Room...
johnhannibalsmith
12-14-2016, 12:59 PM
Why go through all that trouble? ...
Hardest working stewards in America are on the internet. And yet they also never do their job.
linrom1
12-14-2016, 01:37 PM
Why go through all that trouble? All they have to do is key in the ticket with the winning combo before they declare the race official....on the one machine that doesn't lock when the race goes off, that they keep in a closet in the Stewards Room...
So you know about AP set up!
no breathalyzer
12-14-2016, 02:32 PM
999/1000 i don't question it but then there is this http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125762
also one time over 10 yrs ago i remember a time at Hawthorne in a harness race where they had the nerve to show the win photo to show the 2nd and 3rd place finishers instead of where they finished across the wire... to this day i know they ****ed that up as the 3rd place horse got second by a neck.. but since it was harness and were maybe 90 people there no one gave a shit
JohnGalt1
12-14-2016, 03:05 PM
I know I've bet horses that looked to me a dead heat--where I could not see a sliver between them, but my horse either won or lost.
And I've seen photo finishes that looked like dead heats where a horse was named a winner where I did not have a bet. That looked too close to me to separate.
I don't mind winning by a nostril hair, But I don't want to lose by one either. Shouldn't that almost too close to call result in a dead heat?
No one loses. Not the track, not the betters.
dilanesp
12-14-2016, 03:39 PM
999/1000 i don't question it but then there is this http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125762
also one time over 10 yrs ago i remember a time at Hawthorne in a harness race where they had the nerve to show the win photo to show the 2nd and 3rd place finishers instead of where they finished across the wire... to this day i know they ****ed that up as the 3rd place horse got second by a neck.. but since it was harness and were maybe 90 people there no one gave a shit
I don't understand this comment. The win photo and the place photo are the same photo, just farther down the film strip. The camera is not capable of showing any horse's position at any point other than on the wire.
VeryOldMan
12-14-2016, 06:28 PM
All anyone needs to know is that the photo you see IS the finish. That's it...plain and simple.
What you see is exactly what it looked like the instant the first horse hits the finish line.
If the photo finish camera is on the line (and we have to assume that it is), then there can be no other possible image produced.
The "line" you see on the photo is immaterial to the finish, since the photo IS the finish. It is artificially placed on the image to help the fan and the judges separate what is there in the image in a close race. It doesn't change the photo. With or without the line (ie, you can zoom in really close with a digital photo), you can tell who won. The line isn't necessary...it is just a visual aid.
I'm not sure how much clearer you can make it - you've posted this point for a long time and it informed me since I first saw it. The finish line camera is positioned along the actual finish line and is triggered by whatever horse first crosses it. Period. Any lines drawn are optional - work back and figure out what caused the high speed camera to trigger.
chenoa
12-14-2016, 10:04 PM
That's correct - sometimes it just takes a bit longer because some of them are harder to wake up :lol:
Woodbine T-Bred comes to mind, their photos take a helluva long time!!!
What's the deal with that?
whisperlunch
12-14-2016, 10:23 PM
At Each track the actual finish line is hard to distinguish. When heads are bobbing where is the line -in the middle of mirror? Is it before mirror? I'd like to be able to know where it is with naked eye. Gulfstream turf course I have no idea where the finish is. I can't believe how good Aussie racing is with showing the finish in slow mo seconds after they cross. Why can't our tracks ? I remember Laurel tried graphics on the dirt to show finish line but the line was 10 yards thick and you couldn't tell. It was a disaster.
menifee
12-14-2016, 10:58 PM
I guess I was mistaken about Aussie racing based on CJ's comment. The difference is the video equipment. On our video equipment, they don't interpose the line. They should do that as they do in Japan and Aus. It would silence the conspiracy theorists and give a much clearer picture to those watching the race. Now you have no idea where the finish line is.
johnhannibalsmith
12-14-2016, 11:41 PM
What they should really do that would take literally no effort whatsoever is just let video broadcast the feed from the photo equipment as the horses are being placed real-time. If anything would silence a lot of this, it would be a simple education by observation, and there isn't any real downside. Nobody is going to be more scrutinizing or critical than they are now; I'd guess it would yield only empathy and some confidence in the whole system. And for those tracks that make a habit of the control room telling a camera to follow a horse over another that were involved in a photo and the cameraman seems to be right 99% of the time - pretty good chance it would involve little more than just airing what is already set up and happening.
Fager Fan
12-15-2016, 09:35 AM
The guy assumed that they took a picture as soon as the first horse hit the finish line. That picture would have contained the four horses because they were all within a length and a quarter of the winner. Then our guy assumed they drew a line for the winner and a separate line for the show horse using that one snap shot instead of taking a second picture when the 3rd/4th place horses crossed the line. In other words, in the snap shot he assumed only the winner had actually reached the finish line. i tried to explain to him that you had a continuous stream of film rolling by, and a very small aperture at the finish line and as each horse entered the aperture it printed on the film. So the snap shot he thought he saw was actually where each horse was when he hit the finish line. As I said, the concept just blew his mind.
What I was explaining was exactly how it was done back then. If you looked at the continuous roll of film you would see all the horses strung out, but the pictures of each respective horse were as they were passing the finish line.
Does that make sense now?
You said it was the same photo but with 2 diff lines.
Fager Fan
12-15-2016, 09:47 AM
I haven't read previous threads so excuse the questions that you all will say have been discussed ad nauseum.
It makes sense if the photo is a narrow aperture as you said, the very inch that the first horse crosses the line. But the photo shows far more than that. It captures the full length of the horse. A narrow nose can't change within the time span of a horse length?
foregoforever
12-15-2016, 11:34 AM
With all due respect to everyone on this thread, if you're asking questions about the placement of the line, you don't understand how the system works.
Google "photo finish camera" ...
https://www.google.com/search?q=photo+finish+camera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
... and start reading.
If you prefer watching to reading, this video from Woodbine is a good start:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut0nKdLCAEo
dilanesp
12-15-2016, 11:55 AM
I haven't read previous threads so excuse the questions that you all will say have been discussed ad nauseum.
It makes sense if the photo is a narrow aperture as you said, the very inch that the first horse crosses the line. But the photo shows far more than that. It captures the full length of the horse. A narrow nose can't change within the time span of a horse length?
1 more time. Let's use film, though digital works the same.
The camera is fixed and points directly at the finish.
The film moves through the camera in the direction and speed of the horses.
So when each horse's nose hits the line you see it.
Yes you also see horses' bodies. But that part of the image isn't snapped at the same time as the noses. Rather, you see each part of the body the way it looks when it crosses the line. Everything depicted in the photo looks exactly the way it looked when it crosses the line. And you don't see anything to either side of the line. If there is a banner that says "NBC Sports" to the left of the line, you can't see it in the photo.
Fager Fan
12-15-2016, 12:49 PM
Ok, I'm getting it. Thanks for the video link. That explains the sliver photo that in my mind I was said was needed. The sliver photos are then put together to make the larger photos.
Can someone explain why the photo of the Distaff showed the nose tips distorted?
foregoforever
12-15-2016, 03:20 PM
Can someone explain why the photo of the Distaff showed the nose tips distorted?
I don't recall that photo being all that distorted, but it is possible.
Consider a case where two horses hit the wire together, and one horse is traveling twice as fast as the other. Knowing how the system works, you'll realize that the "photo" will show the body of the slower horse as twice the length of that of the faster horse. This is because the body of the slower horse spent twice the time in front of the camera slit as the faster horse.
Now consider a galloping horse. As the horse approaches full extension, his nose is moving farther from his midsection. Then when his body compresses for the next stride, his nose is moving closer to his midsection.
What this means is that even through the horse is moving at a constant speed, the tip of his nose isn't. It's going slightly faster when he's extending, slightly slower when he's compressing. You see this as the head-bob action when two horses are running together and their strides are out of sync with each other.
If a horse hits the wire while he's extending, his nose will be in the slit for slightly less time and it will appear slightly compressed on the "photo". If he's compressing at the wire, his nose will be in the slit a bit longer and be slightly extended in the photo.
The camera software is set up to render a final photo that shows the horses in roughly correct proportions, but variations in speed across the line will show up as these sorts of minor distortions.
In that Google search from my earlier post, take a look at the articles about distortions that show up in photos from cycling events. In particular, the spokes on the bike wheels are often curved for the same reason.
While these distortions are amusing artifacts from the camera system, they are just that. They don't affect the results, since the finish is defined as the when the tip of the nose, or the bike wheel, hits the line.
HalvOnHorseracing
12-15-2016, 05:44 PM
You said it was the same photo but with 2 diff lines.
Yes, and I'm still saying it. They posted the exact same photo, one with a line at the win, one with a line at the show.
And as has been said over and over, there is only one continuous strip that shows each horse as it crosses the finish line.
EasyGoer89
12-27-2016, 04:33 AM
The judges at Santa Anita needed 14 mins to place the winning horse in the first race of the meet? Seems to me this was the fake suspense I was talking about in post 34 here. There's zero chance it took that long to put up the results unless they were dragging out the suspense, there's no logical way to argue otherwise. Your point was that 13 minutes into the photo they still didn't know who won and then in the 14 th minute they finally 'saw' that the 6 win the race?
This suspense dragging thing happens all the time at Santa Anita, do other tracks do it? Not sure, but this is proof SA does it.
johnhannibalsmith
12-27-2016, 09:52 AM
Your smoking gun just took up Nicorette.
HuggingTheRail
12-27-2016, 01:02 PM
The judges at Santa Anita needed 14 mins to place the winning horse in the first race of the meet? Seems to me this was the fake suspense I was talking about in post 34 here. There's zero chance it took that long to put up the results unless they were dragging out the suspense, there's no logical way to argue otherwise. Your point was that 13 minutes into the photo they still didn't know who won and then in the 14 th minute they finally 'saw' that the 6 win the race?
This suspense dragging thing happens all the time at Santa Anita, do other tracks do it? Not sure, but this is proof SA does it.
Maybe they weren't there yet? It was a noon start..... ;)
SuperPickle
12-27-2016, 04:18 PM
The judges at Santa Anita needed 14 mins to place the winning horse in the first race of the meet? Seems to me this was the fake suspense I was talking about in post 34 here. There's zero chance it took that long to put up the results unless they were dragging out the suspense, there's no logical way to argue otherwise. Your point was that 13 minutes into the photo they still didn't know who won and then in the 14 th minute they finally 'saw' that the 6 win the race?
This suspense dragging thing happens all the time at Santa Anita, do other tracks do it? Not sure, but this is proof SA does it.
Supposedly the process in SoCal is if the places judges and stewards aren't confident in calling it off the screen the image has to be printed. I have no idea how long this takes but I can confirm they requested a print of this photo before posting numbers.
Valuist
12-27-2016, 04:36 PM
Watch a replay of race 1 from December 17 at Los Alamitos (thoroughbred meet). I had no dog in the fight, but I don't think I've ever seen a more surprising result. I would never have guessed the 5 horse got up.
AltonKelsey
12-27-2016, 04:41 PM
An image displayed on an HD LCD screen (even racing can afford those) is as good as it gets for determining placement.
Printing it out serves no additional purpose save to draw a line with a ruler, in case you cant figure out how to do that with your mouse.
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