Wood Memorial and Bluegrass now G2s; PA Derby G1

[SuperPickle]

What if I told you 25 years ago the PA Derby would become a Grade One. What if I also told you as a tradeoff they downgraded the Wood and Bluegrass.

You'd have me locked up right?

We've reached Peak Racino.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/blue-grass-wood-memorial-downgraded-pennsylvania-derby-grade-1-2017/

[Bigadam119]

What if I told you 25 years ago the PA Derby would become a Grade One. What if I also told you as a tradeoff they downgraded the Wood and Bluegrass.

You'd have me locked up right?

We've reached Peak Racino.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/blue-grass-wood-memorial-downgraded-pennsylvania-derby-grade-1-2017/

Wow, I don't give Parx to much credit but they got it right with this one and are seeing the much deserved return. They set out to make the PA Derby and attractive race and they did.

Is the Wood and Bluegrass move surprising though? Other than Frosted who has come out of them the last few years?

[lamboguy]

this just baked the cake. how can the guys in racing get it wrong all the fking time? New York racing and the meets at Keeneland at least try to do the right thing. they put out some very big days and the reward is taking away their status and rewarding the swillholes of all swillholes Parx.

take away New York and Keeneland and this racing game is completely gonzo.

[Tom]

Who was the last Wood winner to win the Derby?

[RunForTheRoses]

Who was the last Wood winner to win the Derby?

Pleasant Colony? I guess someone after him but not too many.

FuPeg was the last one.

[classhandicapper]

I don't agree with downgrading the Wood even though I understand the reasoning. I'm old enough to remember each of the major regional Derby preps having random dry periods that had nothing to do with the purse, perceptions of horsemen, or anything else concrete. A lot of it is simply random BS. It's the result of which trainers just happen to have the better 3yos that year, where they are located, and where they personally like to prep their horses. I think it's inevitable that the SA Derby will have a dry spell eventually too. It has already. That won't make it any less of a Grade 1. It will just make some editions stronger than others like it has always been. IMO, the Wood will get hot again as long as it is supported with an appropriate purse and remains positioned well on the calendar.

The one question I have is how this impacts the Derby points. If it also reduces the Derby points, then lowering it to a Grade 2 becomes a self fulfilling prophesy in that some good horses won't go there now because they need more points.

[cj]

I don't agree with downgrading the Wood even though I understand the reasoning. I'm old enough to remember each of the major regional Derby preps having random dry periods that had nothing to do with the purse, perceptions of horsemen, or anything else concrete. A lot of it is simply random BS. It's the result of which trainers just happen to have the better 3yos that year, where they are located, and where they personally like to prep their horses. I think it's inevitable that the SA Derby will have a dry spell eventually too. It has already. That won't make it any less of a Grade 1. It will just make some editions stronger than others like it has always been. IMO, the Wood will get hot again as long as it is supported with an appropriate purse and remains positioned well on the calendar.

The one question I have is how this impacts the Derby points. If it also reduces the Derby points, then lowering it to a Grade 2 becomes a self fulfilling prophesy in that some good horses won't go there now because they need more points.

Points aren't assigned by Grading.

[SoCalCircuit]

It won't impact the points in light of the Louisiana Derby precedent. Too bad eskendereya got injured he could've bought the Wood a couple more good years.

[classhandicapper]

Points aren't assigned by Grading.

Good and thanks.

[PhantomOnTour]

Who was the last Wood winner to win the Derby?
Who's the last Kentucky Derby winner to win the Penn Derby?

[EMD4ME]

This is just stupid. Logic be damned.

NY and KEE are 2/3 of what makes this game continue. No one cares about the state of PA, in terms of horse racing.

[Tom]

Who's the last Kentucky Derby winner to win the Penn Derby?

Penn race now a big prep for the Breeder's cup.
How many Wood winners make either one of those?

[Tom]

This is just stupid. Logic be damned.

NY and KEE are 2/3 of what makes this game continue. No one cares about the state of PA, in terms of horse racing.

It's not about tacks, its about individual races.
I thinks it makes sense.

[EMD4ME]

It's not about tacks, its about individual races.
I thinks it makes sense.

I know, sigh. That's why I said logic be damned. It does make sense when you look at the rules but I don't like it.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

I see both sides to this, but in reality to understand the logic of this downgrade it has alot to do with how their decision was framed. Namely, did they chose to downgrade this in terms of how well the prep stacks up against others in terms of how well the horses have done in the Kentucky Derby or their body of work.

With the 2016 Wood, not much has come out of it. Again keep in mind we are talking about 3YOs so who knows how well any of the will fair down the road but so far nothing really. 2015 saw Frosted who blossomed late, 2014 saw Wicked Strong and Effinex, 2013 Verrazano who showed some promise and Vyjack who is still knocking around, 2012 Gemologist who didnt exactly set the world on fire and Alpha who dead heated in the travers, 2011 was Tobys Corner and Uncle Mo who has done well in the breeding shed. Either way not many horses in the last five years have done very well with the exception of Frosted really and Effinex.

So, I get it if we are looking at it as a prep for the Derby, but I also think each Grade 1 should stand alone on its own merits and how the horses have done since then as a whole.

[RacingFan1992]

I'm just surprised they haven't shortened the distances to 1 1/16 and changed the conditions to filly and mares on turf. That seems to be what a majority of races are.

[Redboard]

Love the PA Derby upgrade, but it is my home track.

Don't understand the Wood & Bluegrass downgrades. These are historic races with $1 million purses. I could see if they reduced the purses. Makes no sense.

[classhandicapper]

Penn race now a big prep for the Breeder's cup.


I have no problem with the Penn Derby being upgraded, but I don't think you can judge races like the Wood or especially the Blue Grass (which was run on synth for awhile) off a handful of weaker editions.

Frosted won the Wood last year and he demonstrated he was clearly a worthy Grade 1 winner even if he ran into a few better horses in the Derby.

Impressive recent winners like Eskendereya and I want Revenge might have even won the Derby if they didn't get injured.

I get it, but I'm calling BS on this downgrade. I may have to take a knee when the track announcer says "it is now post time" for the next edition. ;)

[cj]

In reality, gradings don't mean diddly poo to bettors. Something to talk about I guess but not much else really.

[classhandicapper]

In reality, gradings don't mean diddly poo to bettors. Something to talk about I guess but not much else really.

I guess it's mostly relevant to Breeder's and horse buyers. Many are probably smart enough to know which editions were strong or weak anyway.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

In reality, gradings don't mean diddly poo to bettors. Something to talk about I guess but not much else really.

Agree.

I'll still look at the Wood, Bluegrass, Louisiana Derby, Florida Derby, Arkansas Derby, and Santa Anita Derby as the final major preps for the Kentucky Derby. I'll hold them as the most important, regardless of grading, as they are the best preps run at 9Fs and timed perfectly as the final prep for horses in those fields before they run in the Kentucky Derby. Heck, the points are what matters in these races anyway.

[PhantomOnTour]

Wonder where the Wood Memorial would be if I Want Revenge & Eskendereya had run in the Derby.
Both would have been the chalk at Churchill

[Tom]

Woulda coulda shoulda........

[CincyHorseplayer]

I might be out in left field but I don't like the PA Derby at all because I view it as an obstruction. We already have the Haskell and Travers for 3yo's in mid to late summer. With usually 1 prep til the BC this race means the 3's will only face their elders 1 time. This perpetuates trainer fear. Let's follow it to the next redundant conclusion=why don't we have a new BC race? The BC Derby restricted to 3yo? Why face the elders at all? The downgrades to historic races that are preps to the TC just makes me ill.

[the little guy]

While the Bluegrass downgrade is a direct result of polytrack, the Wood is more interesting. Surely the future performances ultimately have a great deal of randomness at that time ( less established horses versus more established/older horses in "handicap" division races ), one could argue it's a direct result of Pletcher horses that peaked very early ( Eskendereya, Gemologist, Verrazano, and Outwork ) only to quickly fizzle out and or get retired. Of those four recent winners,only one ever won another race, and I think the other three made two more lifetime starts combined.

Regardless, people need these late derby preps to try to get points. They will still run, and law of averages suggest a derby winner will come from one of these two races fairly soon. Frankly, I don't get why any "prep" for the KY Derby should have the same grade as the big race.

[dilanesp]

Who was the last Wood winner to win the Derby?

This is basically the problem. And I don't think it's NYRA's fault.They put up a big purse on a big racing circuit, but they have been unlucky

[dilanesp]

While the Bluegrass downgrade is a direct result of polytrack, the Wood is more interesting. Surely the future performances ultimately have a great deal of randomness at that time ( less established horses versus more established/older horses in "handicap" division races ), one could argue it's a direct result of Pletcher horses that peaked very early ( Eskendereya, Gemologist, Verrazano, and Outwork ) only to quickly fizzle out and or get retired. Of those four recent winners,only one ever won another race, and I think the other three made two more lifetime starts combined.

Regardless, people need these late derby preps to try to get points. They will still run, and law of averages suggest a derby winner will come from one of these two races fairly soon. Frankly, I don't get why any "prep" for the KY Derby should have the same grade as the big race.

Well, the Derby and Preakness and the biggest BC races, and the Dubai World Cup, are really like super-Grade I's.

[the little guy]

Well, the Derby and Preakness and the biggest BC races, and the Dubai World Cup, are really like super-Grade I's.

The Dubai World Cup is not graded.

[dilanesp]

I see both sides to this, but in reality to understand the logic of this downgrade it has alot to do with how their decision was framed. Namely, did they chose to downgrade this in terms of how well the prep stacks up against others in terms of how well the horses have done in the Kentucky Derby or their body of work.

With the 2016 Wood, not much has come out of it. Again keep in mind we are talking about 3YOs so who knows how well any of the will fair down the road but so far nothing really. 2015 saw Frosted who blossomed late, 2014 saw Wicked Strong and Effinex, 2013 Verrazano who showed some promise and Vyjack who is still knocking around, 2012 Gemologist who didnt exactly set the world on fire and Alpha who dead heated in the travers, 2011 was Tobys Corner and Uncle Mo who has done well in the breeding shed. Either way not many horses in the last five years have done very well with the exception of Frosted really and Effinex.

So, I get it if we are looking at it as a prep for the Derby, but I also think each Grade 1 should stand alone on its own merits and how the horses have done since then as a whole.

2016 was definitely a disaster. A maiden losing a photo finish.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Well, the Derby and Preakness and the biggest BC races, and the Dubai World Cup, are really like super-Grade I's.

That's true. Should be a Grade 0. Bagel Battle. Ground zero..(cue to drop the bass baby!) :cool:

[classhandicapper]

Frankly, I don't get why any "prep" for the KY Derby should have the same grade as the big race.

I was just discussing this with someone else.

IMO, there are two types of Grade 1 races.

Some are what I would call regional affairs where most of the best horses in the area face off with perhaps a few shippers here or there. They are very strong, but not all the leading horses in the country will be there and even a few locals may pass.

Then there are a handful of Grade 1s that have established such prestige they are national and sometimes even international in scope instead of mostly regional.

The BC races, the Triple Crown, the Travers, Pacific Classic, Hollywood Gold Cup, SA Handicap, Met Mile, JCGC, Whitney etc... are the types of races that often draw the best horses in the country (some of those races have been losing that draw in recent years). Those races tend to be stronger than the typical or average regional Grade 1.

In my thinking they are two different classes of races even though they are all called Grade 1.

You can call them all Grade 1s (including the Wood, SA Derby, Blue Grass etc.. which are regional types) and differentiate as a handicapper from the Derby which is a national Grade 1 or you could drop a whole bunch of the more regional Grade 1s down to Grade 2 status.

Either way, my thinking about them is the same. They are often two different classes of race.

[Redboard]

..... I think it's inevitable that the SA Derby will have a dry spell eventually too. It has already. .......

The Santa Anita derby had a drought from 1989 (Sunday Silence) to 2012 (I’ll Have Another) . That’s a long time for THE major west coast prep.

[Bigadam119]

I was just discussing this with someone else.

IMO, there are two types of Grade 1 races.

Some are what I would call regional affairs where most of the best horses in the area face off with perhaps a few shippers here or there. They are very strong, but not all the leading horses in the country will be there and even a few locals may pass.

Then there are a handful of Grade 1s that have established such prestige they are national and sometimes even international in scope instead of mostly regional.

The BC races, the Triple Crown, the Travers, Pacific Classic, Hollywood Gold Cup, SA Handicap, Met Mile, JCGC, Whitney etc... are the types of races that often draw the best horses in the country (some of those races have been losing that draw in recent years). Those races tend to be stronger than the typical or average regional Grade 1.

In my thinking they are two different classes of races even though they are all called Grade 1.

You can call them all Grade 1s (including the Wood, SA Derby, Blue Grass etc.. which are regional types) and differentiate as a handicapper from the Derby which is a national Grade 1 or you could drop a whole bunch of the more regional Grade 1s down to Grade 2 status.

Either way, my thinking about them is the same. They are often two different classes of race.

The last few years the PA Derby aligns more with the first races you named rather than the latter.

Even this past year stack this years JCGC up against the PA Derby field. The PA Derby field was probably stronger as a restricted race.

[dilanesp]

The last few years the PA Derby aligns more with the first races you named rather than the latter.

Even this past year stack this years JCGC up against the PA Derby field. The PA Derby field was probably stronger as a restricted race.

Very few things have fallen farther in American horse racing than the importance of the handicap division stakes in New York.

I still think the Met Mile is a wonderful race, year in and year out, but what used to be the big championship races-- the Suburban, Brooklyn, Woodward, and JCGC are all a far cry from what they once were. Hoppertunity winning the JCGC after being uncompetitive in California was a particular low point.

[cj]

The Dubai World Cup is not graded.

It is listed as a Group 1 last I checked. Am I mistaking your meaning?

[dilanesp]

The Dubai World Cup is not graded.

Did I say it was? I said it was among the small class of races that were "like" super Grade I's. Notice the word "like", TLG. Do you know what it means?

Do you understand why I was classifying certain races, unofficially, as "super Grade I's"?

As the Nobel Prize winner in Literature once said, "don't criticize what you can't understand".

[aaron]

Very few things have fallen farther in American horse racing than the importance of the handicap division stakes in New York.

I still think the Met Mile is a wonderful race, year in and year out, but what used to be the big championship races-- the Suburban, Brooklyn, Woodward, and JCGC are all a far cry from what they once were. Hoppertunity winning the JCGC after being uncompetitive in California was a particular low point.
As far as I can see there is no handicap division in racing anymore. No body gives weight like Forego used to give in almost every race. Racing now just has their 3yo races and 3 and up, but none are really Handicap Races. When was the last time a horse carried 135 lbs and the 2nd choice carried 120 ?

[the little guy]

It is listed as a Group 1 last I checked. Am I mistaking your meaning?

It's not graded by the group that grades US races. It's likely self graded.

Did you think of it as a true Grade 1 when it was run on synth?

[the little guy]

Very few things have fallen farther in American horse racing than the importance of the handicap division stakes in New York.

I still think the Met Mile is a wonderful race, year in and year out, but what used to be the big championship races-- the Suburban, Brooklyn, Woodward, and JCGC are all a far cry from what they once were. Hoppertunity winning the JCGC after being uncompetitive in California was a particular low point.

Your west coast bias is so absurd that even you must be embarrassed by some of the crap you post here. Care to list the great handicap performers in CA outside of CA Chrome? How were the "big" races in CA over the last couple of years that he didn't run in? Did you know the horse he was routinely beating this year in CA was drowned in the BC by a horse that lost three prior Stakes in NY?

The entire handicap division has changed over the past couple of decades....NY, CA, and the Midwest. But, to you, it's a NY thing.

[P Matties Jr]

Who's the last Kentucky Derby winner to win the Penn Derby?

How about Who's the last Wood Memorial winner to win the Penn Derby? That seems to be the question that answers why both should have the same grading.

[P Matties Jr]

In reality, gradings don't mean diddly poo to bettors. Something to talk about I guess but not much else really.


Agreed. However, the USA has to protect our dirt racing classics. There's too many reasons for these trainers not to run in these races, already.

Also, it seems pretty simple that the four major preps of the Kentucky Derby should all have the same grade. Whatever that grade is up to interpretation, I guess.

[classhandicapper]

For the record, The Dubai World Cup debuted in 1996 as a Listed stakes race. It was given Group 1 status in 1998. I believe whatever organization sets the ratings in Europe does the same thing for the Dubai races. A couple of others have changed over the years.

[cj]

Agreed. However, the USA has to protect our dirt racing classics. There's too many reasons for these trainers not to run in these races, already.

Also, it seems pretty simple that the four major preps of the Kentucky Derby should all have the same grade. Whatever that grade is up to interpretation, I guess.

That is very reasonable.

[thespaah]

What if I told you 25 years ago the PA Derby would become a Grade One. What if I also told you as a tradeoff they downgraded the Wood and Bluegrass.

You'd have me locked up right?

We've reached Peak Racino.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/blue-grass-wood-memorial-downgraded-pennsylvania-derby-grade-1-2017/
I read the article. What a joke.
So who at Parx is paying off the geniuses at the Grading Committee?
The PA Derby is a so so race with a fat purse that no longer attracts a competitive field. The goal is to get one really good 3 yo to face a bunch of horses that should be pulling wagon loads of apple pies.
Yeah, I run the risk of getting flamed here. I don't care.

[thespaah]

Who was the last Wood winner to win the Derby?
What difference does that make?

[thespaah]

In reality, gradings don't mean diddly poo to bettors. Something to talk about I guess but not much else really.
Try this theory.
I think there are too many graded stakes.
Here's the effect I see.
There are barns that can choose from a number og graded stakes being contested either within a couple weeks of each other or on the same weekend or same day. They can look at the nominations and duck the other competitive horses in a particular division.
So we get short fields where there might be two upper level horses and a handful of pretenders. They races come up with little value prospective.
JMHO

[cj]

It's not graded by the group that grades US races. It's likely self graded.

Did you think of it as a true Grade 1 when it was run on synth?'


No, just like the Blue Grass :)

I don't remember exactly how overseas grades are assigned. The group that grades US races doesn't have anything to do with any overseas races I didn't think. I'll be the first to admit I'm probably over my head here. I just use what I see in the PPs. A DWC horse will show G1 when he runs here in our PPs, just like the Arc or the English Derby.

[thespaah]

As far as I can see there is no handicap division in racing anymore. No body gives weight like Forego used to give in almost every race. Racing now just has their 3yo races and 3 and up, but none are really Handicap Races. When was the last time a horse carried 135 lbs and the 2nd choice carried 120 ?
I have programs from the 1980's where the highweight of a graded h'cap would carry 123-127 lbs and would give up to 15 lbs.
Here's the field for the 1985 Marlboro Cup
:1: Greinton (122) 5/2 :2: Al Mamoon (116)20-1 :3: Carr de Naskra ( 120)6-1
:4: Bandwagon Harry(114) 30-1 :5: Track Barron (126) 2-1 :6: Gate Dancer y pet name for this one was "the Hooded Monster"(125) 4-1 :7: Vandladingham (122) 15-1 :8: Chiefs Crown (119) 8-1 :9: Bounding Basque (114) 20-1
:10: Skip Trial (114) 30-1
Chiefs Crown pulled off a stunner here.
http://www.nytimes.com/1985/09/15/sports/chief-s-crown-stuns-field-in-marlboro.html
BTW, folks on a side note read all the way to the end. There you'll see something some of you may find rather incredible. Back in those days race day lasix was a no no in New York

[Bigadam119]

How about Who's the last Wood Memorial winner to win the Penn Derby? That seems to be the question that answers why both should have the same grading.

Who's the last Breeders Cup Classic winner to win the Wood? That is the premier race in the US and should be the measurement stick and dirt route should be measured against.

[the little guy]

Who's the last Breeders Cup Classic winner to win the Wood? That is the premier race in the US and should be the measurement stick and dirt route should be measured against.


So, according to you, a final prep for the Kentucky Derby should be measured against whether or not it's winner is also victorious in the BC Classic? Hard to see the logic in that.

Interestingly enough, very few BC Classic winners won any of the final KY Derby preps.

[Tom]

What difference does that make?

Is NY a viable road to the Derby anymore?
If not, why should it be Gr1?

I do agree there are too many graded stakes.
Limit them and force owners to race their horses.

[dilanesp]

Is NY a viable road to the Derby anymore?
If not, why should it be Gr1?

I do agree there are too many graded stakes.
Limit them and force owners to race their horses.

My bet is that New York is a very viable road to the Derby and this problem has a lot to do with Pletcher's bad luck in the Derby.

[cj]

My bet is that New York is a very viable road to the Derby and this problem has a lot to do with Pletcher's bad luck in the Derby.

I wouldn't call the performance of Pletcher's Derby horses bad luck.

[the little guy]

Is NY a viable road to the Derby anymore?
If not, why should it be Gr1?

I do agree there are too many graded stakes.
Limit them and force owners to race their horses.

NY has as good a road to the Derby as any jurisdiction, and probably better than most. Remsen-Jerome-Withers-Gotham-Wood all offer Derby points, which is what matters to people trying to make the race. The money is also very good. The fact that a Derby winner hasn't come from NY is random. Surely people don't think the SA Derby or Arkansas Derby is a "better" race just because randomness has been on their side recently? That would be pretty silly.

If making the Wood and Bluegrass Grade 2s keeps the top Derby contender, in this year likely Classic Empire, from running, it will likely increase field size, and thus handle. Make of that what you will.

[foregoforever]

Limit them and force owners to race their horses.

The grades are set by the Thoroughbred Owners and Breeders Association. That tells you the purpose of the grading, and it's definitely not to force owners to race against top competition.

The whole system is silly. I don't understand why the grading of a race should be dependent on what its horses do months later. If they win races later, it's because they got better, not because they were so great all along. And if they got hurt and never ran again, that shouldn't count against the race either.

A race should be graded based on the quality of the FIELD, not just one or two horses, and AT THE TIME OF THE RACE (i.e., based on previous performances), not based on what happened months later.

There's way too much black type being doled out to 2yo and early 3yo colts that is based on precociousness and, more importantly, how hard their trainers are pushing them, rather than the quality of the horse. We certainly don't need a half dozen mutually exclusive grade 1 preps for the Derby.

And we don't need grade 1 races for 3yos in September. Once that was my favorite time of the racing year, when the 3yos finally started running against older horses. After months of debating the quality of the years 3yo crop, we'd finally get some measurements in the Woodward, JCGC, Pacific Classic, Goodwood, etc. That's why those races were so great.

Now one or two of the top 3yos run in the Pa Derby and then train up to the BCC. Yawn.

[the little guy]

The grades are set by the Thoroughbred Owners and Breeders Association. That tells you the purpose of the grading, and it's definitely not to force owners to race against top competition.

The whole system is silly. I don't understand why the grading of a race should be dependent on what its horses do months later. If they win races later, it's because they got better, not because they were so great all along. And if they got hurt and never ran again, that shouldn't count against the race either.

A race should be graded based on the quality of the FIELD, not just one or two horses, and AT THE TIME OF THE RACE (i.e., based on previous performances), not based on what happened months later.

There's way too much black type being doled out to 2yo and early 3yo colts that is based on precociousness and, more importantly, how hard their trainers are pushing them, rather than the quality of the horse. We certainly don't need a half dozen mutually exclusive grade 1 preps for the Derby.

And we don't need grade 1 races for 3yos in September. Once that was my favorite time of the racing year, when the 3yos finally started running against older horses. After months of debating the quality of the years 3yo crop, we'd finally get some measurements in the Woodward, JCGC, Pacific Classic, Goodwood, etc. That's why those races were so great.

Now one or two of the top 3yos run in the Pa Derby and then train up to the BCC. Yawn.

Good post.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...

And we don't need grade 1 races for 3yos in September. ...

Agree completely and about the only element of this that I care about. Make the threes at that time of year that are allegedly Grade I quality step up to face older and make the case that distinguishes them from other elite peers. Turf Paradise runs a Last Chance Derby already.

[Track Phantom]

My rather simple suggestion would be to create an elite Grading for the most prominent races.

Maybe a Grade 1E for the most important races run in the country, keeping this classification to the top 10 or 15 races.

This would be similar to the PGA classifying their top events as majors.

I do believe the G1 classification is getting watered down some in its current state.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by foregoforever
...

And we don't need grade 1 races for 3yos in September. ...

I don't them we need them before May.
None of the preps should be G1 IMHO.

[CincyHorseplayer]

I don't them we need them before May.
None of the preps should be G1 IMHO.

TC, Haskell, Travers only G1 for 3yo. Face elders in September. Good idea Tom. I hate the PA Derby. The G2 or less for TC preps is a great idea also.

[dilanesp]

NY has as good a road to the Derby as any jurisdiction, and probably better than most. Remsen-Jerome-Withers-Gotham-Wood all offer Derby points, which is what matters to people trying to make the race. The money is also very good. The fact that a Derby winner hasn't come from NY is random. Surely people don't think the SA Derby or Arkansas Derby is a "better" race just because randomness has been on their side recently? That would be pretty silly.

If making the Wood and Bluegrass Grade 2s keeps the top Derby contender, in this year likely Classic Empire, from running, it will likely increase field size, and thus handle. Make of that what you will.

Take note everyone. TLG and I completely agree.

[EasyGoer89]

The wood should never have been downgraded, i agree that its random that the horses in the Wood haven't gone on to win the Derby, bad luck prevented I Want Revenge from running in the Derby, if he runs and wins, who knows how that makes owners and the industry view the Wood in the few years afterward.

The main reason the race shouldn't be downgraded is that this is still a known top level prep for the Ky Derby, it can produce Derby winners, what happens if the Wood winner wins the Derby next year? Do they regrade it? If there's a chance you can 'regret' your decision one year after, you probably should have left it alone and not play games.

I disagree with the downgrade, there are certain races that should be 'untouchables' and i think a race like this at a major NY track is one of them.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Take note everyone. TLG and I completely agree.

We found some common ground on Will Rogers Downs this week too.

It's been horseplayer bonding week :D

[CincyHorseplayer]

The wood should never have been downgraded, i agree that its random that the horses in the Wood haven't gone on to win the Derby, bad luck prevented I Want Revenge from running in the Derby, if he runs and wins, who knows how that makes owners and the industry view the Wood in the few years afterward.

The main reason the race shouldn't be downgraded is that this is still a known top level prep for the Ky Derby, it can produce Derby winners, what happens if the Wood winner wins the Derby next year? Do they regrade it? If there's a chance you can 'regret' your decision one year after, you probably should have left it alone and not play games.

I disagree with the downgrade, there are certain races that should be 'untouchables' and i think a race like this at a major NY track is one of them.

I was really pumped up on Far From Over too but he never even got that far.

[Spalding No!]

The Santa Anita derby had a drought from 1989 (Sunday Silence) to 2012 (I’ll Have Another) . That’s a long time for THE major west coast prep.
1997- Silver Charm
1998- Real Quiet
1999- Charismatic
2005- Giacomo

[CincyHorseplayer]

1997- Silver Charm
1998- Real Quiet
1999- Charismatic
2005- Giacomo

I get that. But it's about win to win if evaluating. Those horses didn't win the SA Derby.