Trump keeps Carrier in Indiana

[JustRalph]

Good news

https://mobile.twitter.com/Carrier/status/803764047300722688

[fast4522]

So President elect Trump has done more for the working man in just a few weeks than President Barack Hussein Obama has done in eight years and the man has not been sworn in yet?

[OntheRail]

Trumps not even sworn in yet and already keeping campaign promises... :ThmbUp:

[ElKabong]

Given her past performances, Hillary would have kept them here as well...right? :lol:

Nafta, we don't have ta - should be the modern day slogan.

[fast4522]

This is truly outstanding.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/29/business/trump-to-announce-carrier-plant-will-keep-jobs-in-us.html?_r=0

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Be interesting to see what the quid pro quo is on the "deal."

Sounded like it really wasn't much of a big savings for Carrier. Labor costs in Mexico are lower, but energy costs would probably be higher and shipping costs become a consideration as well. One article said

Representatives of the company have told state officials that the company will save about $65 million a year by moving production from Indiana to Mexico. UTC had about $55.7 billion in sales last year.

I don't know the HVAC business, but a savings of a little over 1% doesn't sound like that alone should have driven consideration of a move.

[RunForTheRoses]

Be interesting to see what the quid pro quo is on the "deal."

Sounded like it really wasn't much of a big savings for Carrier. Labor costs in Mexico are lower, but energy costs would probably be higher and shipping costs become a consideration as well. One article said

Representatives of the company have told state officials that the company will save about $65 million a year by moving production from Indiana to Mexico. UTC had about $55.7 billion in sales last year.

I don't know the HVAC business, but a savings of a little over 1% doesn't sound like that alone should have driven consideration of a move.

Labor Theory of Value Comrade.

[EasyGoer89]

Things get done much faster when real businessmen are negotiating things vs political hacks.

[Jess Hawsen Arown]

Good news

https://mobile.twitter.com/Carrier/status/803764047300722688

And I thought the best news of the day was Yoenis Cespedes resigning with The Mets.

Trump saved more jobs BEFORE his inauguration that Obama did in 8 years of incompetence.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Labor Theory of Value Comrade.
I'm puzzling over what that has to do with my point, which was, considering the relatively small amount of the projected savings, there had to more to the Carrier decision to move than just the lower cost. Which in turn made the decision to stay a lot easier to reach. Whatever concessions Indiana might make to keep Carrier in the state couldn't have represented much pain for them if the amount was $55 million a year. And why would Carrier move if the economic part was a wash? Perhaps they were serious about moving, and perhaps it was a ploy, but I expect both sides are happy with the outcome.

In any case, I'm not seeing the Labor Theory of Value driving the move.

[classhandicapper]

I'm waiting for liberals to spin this into all the jobs Trump is saving is causing upward pressure on inflation. :lol:

[reckless]

Many on here have missed the bigger point, imo.

Ford and Carrier both said they were moving production from Kentucky and Indiana, respectfully, and that's that.

The future president of the US, Donald Trump, was the only candidate on the campaign trail to say this is wrong and if elected, he'll do something about it.

Many people on here said he couldn't do a thing about it, and what he did propose only 'proved' Trump was a knucklehead and didn't know anything about trade and business. I just love it on here .... surrounded by so many experts and know-it-alls.

Well, against all these experts on here, all the 538 subscribers, all the GOP and liberal smartypants about Trump's chances, Trump beat Hillary! for goodness sake.

And within days, I repeat, within days of Election Day, after just a tweet or two and a phone call or two, Donald Trump succeeds and gets Ford Motor to stay in Kentucky and now, gets Carrier to stay in Indiana too.

Already... already, Trump is proving to be one of the most effective Presidents in our lifetime, and dead capable of changing this country around and getting our economy steamrolling ahead.

Trump is already Making America Great Again, and hes putting all the haters, dolts and liberals into knots in the process.

And it isn't even January 20, 2017 yet.

[Tom]

He just told them that he was not the regulation-savant who was the cause for them having to leave in the first place.

With dems out of the picture, business can once again thrive.

[Greyfox]

Things get done much faster when real businessmen are negotiating things vs political hacks.

Apparently the parent company that owns Carrier (don't ask me its name) has been getting billions in Defense contracts.
I don't doubt that Trump casually pointed that out to Carrier's executives.
Money not only talks, it acts.

[MikeH]

It's United Technologies. Their Pratt & Whitney division makes the engines for the F-35. There was a lengthy article in the Wall Street Journal talking about Trump's "options" in carrying a big club against United Technologies because of their defense contracts...

[reckless]

He just told them that he was not the regulation-savant who was the cause for them having to leave in the first place.

With dems out of the picture, business can once again thrive.

And then we'll have ever continuing and increasing record highs in the stock market -- for the record, in a financial thread on this site on November 2 or so, I told all my friends here that we were at the beginning of generational buying opportunity in the stock market.

Three people called me an idiot ... and now look what Donald Trump, and he alone, has done to date... another high in the DJIA.

Can't help it if you guys don't know who to believe when it comes to finance, the stock market, AND politics, but I'll still try to help... :)

Now, once Trump gets sworn in and the economy (and stock market) lifts off to greater heights ... we'll have some of our lefty friends cry, moan and curse how the economy and stock market does not help all people only rich, white folks. :lol: :lol:

[EasyGoer89]

And then we'll have ever continuing and increasing record highs in the stock market -- for the record, in a financial thread on this site on November 2 or so, I told all my friends here that we were at the beginning of generational buying opportunity in the stock market.

Three people called me an idiot ... and now look what Donald Trump, and he alone, has done to date... another high in the DJIA.

Can't help it if you guys don't know who to believe when it comes to finance, the stock market, AND politics, but I'll still try to help... :)

Now, once Trump gets sworn in and the economy (and stock market) lifts off to greater heights ... we'll have some of our lefty friends cry, moan and curse how the economy and stock market does not help all people only rich, white folks. :lol: :lol:

Exactly. That was the 'battle cry' when it was pointed out that Trump had record numbers of people at his rallies, the haters and cynics all said campaign rallies attendance has no correlation to amount of votes received on election day.

whoops! :D

[Inner Dirt]

I saw this thread title early in the morning before my coffee kicked in. I thought how and why did the Navy put an aircraft carrier on Lake Michigan?

[JustRalph]

http://dailycaller.com/2016/11/30/the-brilliance-of-donald-trumps-deal-with-carrier/?utm_campaign=atdailycaller&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social

Brilliant!

[EasyGoer89]

http://dailycaller.com/2016/11/30/the-brilliance-of-donald-trumps-deal-with-carrier/?utm_campaign=atdailycaller&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social

Brilliant!

Caring about the 'little stuff' is going to become commonplace in this administration. Good article, totally agree with the writer.

[NJ Stinks]

http://dailycaller.com/2016/11/30/the-brilliance-of-donald-trumps-deal-with-carrier/?utm_campaign=atdailycaller&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social

Brilliant!

Hilarious.

[EasyGoer89]

Hilarious.

This has been a very funny year, one that sees the good guys and the smart guys and gals laughing all the way to the bank. Tune in tomorrow to see Trump's thank you tour in Ohio, all the smart people and adults will be tuning in.

[chadk66]

I'm waiting for liberals to spin this into all the jobs Trump is saving is causing upward pressure on inflation. :lol::D and somehow screwing up trickle up economics:lol:

[chadk66]

Be interesting to see what the quid pro quo is on the "deal."

Sounded like it really wasn't much of a big savings for Carrier. Labor costs in Mexico are lower, but energy costs would probably be higher and shipping costs become a consideration as well. One article said

Representatives of the company have told state officials that the company will save about $65 million a year by moving production from Indiana to Mexico. UTC had about $55.7 billion in sales last year.

I don't know the HVAC business, but a savings of a little over 1% doesn't sound like that alone should have driven consideration of a move.It was an easy decision for them once Trump reminded them most their money comes from the Pentagon.

[zico20]

Trump must not be that bright. In a few years liberals will point out that at the end of Obama's last year Carrier decided to stay in the USA and Obama will incredibly get credit for it. :bang: Trump should have waited til he took office and made it his first big announcement.

[reckless]

Trump must not be that bright. In a few years liberals will point out that at the end of Obama's last year Carrier decided to stay in the USA and Obama will incredibly get credit for it. :bang: Trump should have waited til he took office and made it his first big announcement.

Democrats, liberals and demented Obama sycophants such as the left wing national media just may try to give credit to Obama for Carrier and Ford staying in the USA where they belong, but who will listen to them? No one!

This is all Trump's doing.

[chadk66]

enough of us that deal in reality will re-elect him if it warrants.

[Fager Fan]

Trump must not be that bright. In a few years liberals will point out that at the end of Obama's last year Carrier decided to stay in the USA and Obama will incredibly get credit for it. :bang: Trump should have waited til he took office and made it his first big announcement.

Maybe he's not playing politics.

As for intelligence, I've never seen a pres-elect make a presidential negotiation prior to taking office. It stuns me, positively, and I'm sure stuns millions of others. It's brilliant, and doing the job well, and people will remember it.

[Clocker]

As for intelligence, I've never seen a pres-elect make a presidential negotiation prior to taking office. It stuns me, positively, and I'm sure stuns millions of others. It's brilliant, and doing the job well, and people will remember it.

And Vice-President elect Mike Pence. He is still the Governor of Indiana, and offered Carrier state incentives to stay. So that's the carrot and defense contracts for the parent company is the stick.

Also, the deal is to keep 1000 jobs in Indiana. According to various reports, that may be about half of the jobs they were planning to move. The rest are still going south. The bottom line is crony capitalism, and business as usual.

[Tom]

Unless you are one the 1,000 who are going to feeding their families next year.

[EasyGoer89]

Democrats, liberals and demented Obama sycophants such as the left wing national media just may try to give credit to Obama for Carrier and Ford staying in the USA where they belong, but who will listen to them? No one!

This is all Trump's doing.

Exactly!

The Internet will remember. Trying to take credit for this 4 years from now will backfire.

[Fager Fan]

And Vice-President elect Mike Pence. He is still the Governor of Indiana, and offered Carrier state incentives to stay. So that's the carrot and defense contracts for the parent company is the stick.

Also, the deal is to keep 1000 jobs in Indiana. According to various reports, that may be about half of the jobs they were planning to move. The rest are still going south. The bottom line is crony capitalism, and business as usual.

How is this crony capitalism? Companies (and stadiums, conferences, etc) very often get incentives to locate/build/stay/come to their state or city. They see the jobs or visitors, etc as good for the state and they (should) get more from it than they are giving. Doing good for the people isn't crony capitalism.

[Clocker]

How is this crony capitalism? Companies (and stadiums, conferences, etc) very often get incentives to locate/build/stay/come to their state or city. They see the jobs or visitors, etc as good for the state and they (should) get more from it than they are giving. Doing good for the people isn't crony capitalism.

All of those things are crony capitalism. It is the government deciding on winners and losers in the market and cutting special deals, usually at the expense of taxpayers.

[JustRalph]

All of those things are crony capitalism. It is the government deciding on winners and losers in the market and cutting special deals, usually at the expense of taxpayers.

I heard that it cost the state $1000 per job to keep it.

A friggin bargain! For once........usually I'm not for tax credits etc......but a stinking grand? Bravo to Pence and Trump!

[FantasticDan]

Bernie's not a fan:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/12/01/bernie-sanders-carrier-just-showed-corporations-how-to-beat-donald-trump/
In exchange for allowing United Technologies to continue to offshore more than 1,000 jobs, Trump will reportedly give the company tax and regulatory favors that the corporation has sought. Just a short few months ago, Trump was pledging to force United Technologies to “pay a damn tax.” He was insisting on very steep tariffs for companies like Carrier that left the United States and wanted to sell their foreign-made products back in the United States. Instead of a damn tax, the company will be rewarded with a damn tax cut. Wow! How’s that for standing up to corporate greed? How’s that for punishing corporations that shut down in the United States and move abroad?
Trump has endangered the jobs of workers who were previously safe in the United States. Why? Because he has signaled to every corporation in America that they can threaten to offshore jobs in exchange for business-friendly tax benefits and incentives. Even corporations that weren’t thinking of offshoring jobs will most probably be reevaluating their stance this morning. And who would pay for the high cost for tax cuts that go to the richest businessmen in America? The working class of America. Let’s be clear. United Technologies is not going broke. Last year, it made a profit of $7.6 billion and received more than $6 billion in defense contracts. It has also received more than $50 million from the Export-Import Bank and very generous tax breaks. In 2014, United Technologies gave its former chief executive Louis Chenevert a golden parachute worth more than $172 million. Last year, the company’s five highest-paid executives made more than $50 million. The firm also spent $12 billion to inflate its stock price instead of using that money to invest in new plants and workers. Does that sound like a company that deserves more corporate welfare from our government? Trump’s Band-Aid solution is only making the problem of wealth inequality in America even worse.
If United Technologies or any other company wants to keep outsourcing decent-paying American jobs, those companies must pay an outsourcing tax equal to the amount of money they expect to save by moving factories to Mexico or other low-wage countries. They should not receive federal contracts or other forms of corporate welfare. They must pay back all of the tax breaks and other corporate welfare they have received from the federal government. And they must not be allowed to reward their executives with stock options, bonuses or golden parachutes for outsourcing jobs to low-wage countries. I will soon be introducing the Outsourcing Prevention Act, which will address exactly that.

[Clocker]

I heard that it cost the state $1000 per job to keep it.

A friggin bargain! For once........usually I'm not for tax credits etc......but a stinking grand? Bravo to Pence and Trump!

This one is small potatoes. I am just pointing out that Trump has been a yuge crony capitalist all of his life and there is no reason to expect any change now that he is on the other side of the deal.

[JustRalph]

Bernie's not a fan:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/12/01/bernie-sanders-carrier-just-showed-corporations-how-to-beat-donald-trump/

The 15% corporate tax Trump wants to push through will kill all this.

Once that's done, nobody can ask for anymore.

[Clocker]

The 15% corporate tax Trump wants to push through will kill all this.



Never happen as long as the Dems can block it in the Senate.

[chadk66]

Bernie's not a fan:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/12/01/bernie-sanders-carrier-just-showed-corporations-how-to-beat-donald-trump/there isn't enough people that give a shit what Bernie thinks to matter

[reckless]

Never happen as long as the Dems can block it in the Senate.

I am not so sure it could never happen clocker, but it is a possibility as you say.

But if they do some blocking, the Democrats will get their arse handed to them in the November 2018 elections. The Trump Train will be full steam ahead in 2017 and Trump isn't afraid to lay blame if some of his pro-America, pro-union work, pro-manufacturing agenda is held up.

This past election the Senate electorial map favored the Democrats with 3-4 incumbent GOP seats deemed highly winable -- with Wisconsin, Ohio, Pennsylvania and New Hampshire being targeted. As you know, thanks to the Trump landslide, only RINO nitwit Kelly Ayotte lost her seat.

But, now, in 2018 this Senatorial map is now a very vulnerable situation for incumbent Democrats. Very few really safe seats for the Dems with one, Joe Manchin of West Virginia, just might bolt to the GOP by then.

So I could see many old hardline Democrats trying to get re-elected and just maybe go along with some of Trump's trade and economic plans -- and also claim them for themselves.

[fast4522]

Bernie's not a fan

What would you expect from a 74 year old commie?

[EasyGoer89]

What would you expect from a 74 year old commie?

Exactly what he gave you. No matter what level trump performs at, he won't get credit. That's called NOT putting America first.

[burnsy]

He already pulled a "NY"......how do you think Global ended up in Malta NY? Right out of the Pataki-Cuomo handbook. On the bright side, it didn't leave.

[Jess Hawsen Arown]

How is this crony capitalism? Companies (and stadiums, conferences, etc) very often get incentives to locate/build/stay/come to their state or city. They see the jobs or visitors, etc as good for the state and they (should) get more from it than they are giving. Doing good for the people isn't crony capitalism.

Democratic Governor Cuomo runs ads bragging about doing exactly the same thing to keep jobs in New York.

BTW, as opposed to his father, Mario, who was the definitive liberal loon, this Cuomo seems to have a head on his shoulders.

[kevb]

I'm not a Trump fan, but I give him credit for keeping some Carrier jobs in Indiana. But whether you are a Trump fan or not, this is weird:

Trump said he called up Gregory Hayes, chief executive of Carrier's parent company, United Technologies, after watching a nightly news report about Trump's campaign promise to keep the plant open. Trump said at first that he did not recall making the statement, then said he had not intended it to be taken literally. But the broadcast moved him to take action, he said.

“I said, Greg, you gotta help us out here. You gotta do something," Trump recalled Thursday."

Didn't recall saying it?
and
Not meant to be taken literally?

Weird.

[barahona44]

The 15% corporate tax Trump wants to push through will kill all this.

Once that's done, nobody can ask for anymore.
Although I think lowering the corporate tax rate is a good idea,there's no guarantee the money will be invested in plants and equipment.It's just as likely , there will be dividend increases and stock buybacks, which is hunky dory for shareholders, not so great for anybody who isn't.The first and only fiduciary obligation of any corporation is to their shareholders.Everybody else is a very distant second..

[Clocker]

“I said, Greg, you gotta help us out here. You gotta do something," Trump recalled Thursday.

'Cause that's a nice little defense contract youse guys got there, and it would be a shame if somethin' was to happen to it. Ya know what I mean?

[barahona44]

'Cause that's a nice little defense contract youse guys got there, and it would be a shame if somethin' was to happen to it. Ya know what I mean?
Well Trump's first name is DON. :)

[classhandicapper]

Here's the way I think about this deal.

2 thousand jobs were scheduled to leave and only 1 thousand will.

To accomplish that, it was reported that the company will receive 7 million dollars of tax benefits (I'm not sure if that's pre tax or after tax).

What people are not considering is that if the US lost those other 1 thousand jobs, all of those people would become eligible for unemployment benefits, some would eventually become eligible for food stamps, medicaid, welfare etc... perhaps for quite a long time. So when you say the company is getting a 7 million dollar tax break, it's way less than a 7 million dollar giveaway from government. It could even be a net benefit depending on how long many of those people stay unemployed collecting some kind of benefits.

[Clocker]

Here's the way I think about this deal.

2 thousand jobs were scheduled to leave and only 1 thousand will.



Do you really think that the federal government should be micromanaging the economy at this level of detail, let alone the president or soon to be president getting involved? Do you really think that any of the considerations you point out were involved in the decision? Or was it all an ego trip for Trump? Four years of that as a basis for policy at the White House?

[johnhannibalsmith]

I'm not a big fan of exactly what you are describing but give him this - he was basically mocked (by myself to some degree included) for this vague plan to keep these companies and jobs here by virtue of his brilliant deal making. Well, love him or hate him, while most political candidates can't even be bothered to pull off the unimaginable and fulfill a perfectly plausible promise (3ps), somehow he's at least projecting being able to pull off exactly what he so vaguely alluded to. And he's not even in charge of anything. Supposedly too overwhelmed by picking staff. I'm kind of in awe that he was able to pull off anything of the sort regardless of whether or not I'm a big fan of the plan itself.

[EasyGoer89]

I'm not a big fan of exactly what you are describing but give him this - he was basically mocked (by myself to some degree included) for this vague plan to keep these companies and jobs here by virtue of his brilliant deal making. Well, love him or hate him, while most political candidates can't even be bothered to pull off the unimaginable and fulfill a perfectly plausible promise (3ps), somehow he's at least projecting being able to pull off exactly what he so vaguely alluded to. And he's not even in charge of anything. Supposedly too overwhelmed by picking staff. I'm kind of in awe that he was able to pull off anything of the sort regardless of whether or not I'm a big fan of the plan itself.

All the publicity that Carrier has gotten with Trump using their name in every rally and now, they're front page news and on the lips of the newly minted president, do you think the advertising they've gotten from him is worth more than, oh, lets say a 30 second super bowl commercial? He's probably given them advertising that they would have had to spend 10 million or more to get, hopefully they're going to pass the 'savings' on to the consumer.
:ThmbUp:

[Clocker]

I'm kind of in awe that he was able to pull off anything of the sort regardless of whether or not I'm a big fan of the plan itself.

This was elementary Crony Capitalism 101. Trump built his empire on the foundation of his crony capitalism and on the foundation of his father's business acumen as an even a bigger crony capitalist, making his fortune on government housing contracts.

This was a basic carrot and stick deal, not even on a big scale.

Carrot #1 (only applicable because of the good luck of having the Governor of Indiana on the ticket): incentives to stay in Indiana.

Carrot #2: cutting back on part of the move to Mexico is small potatoes for UTC, but the good will with the White House for 4 years, and some good press, is big stuff for UTC.

Stick: if you like your defense contract, you can keep your defense contract.

In short, a no-brainer deal for both sides.

[MONEY]

This was elementary Crony Capitalism 101. Trump built his empire on the foundation of his crony capitalism and on the foundation of his father's business acumen as an even a bigger crony capitalist, making his fortune on government housing contracts.

This was a basic carrot and stick deal, not even on a big scale.

Carrot #1 (only applicable because of the good luck of having the Governor of Indiana on the ticket): incentives to stay in Indiana.

Carrot #2: cutting back on part of the move to Mexico is small potatoes for UTC, but the good will with the White House for 4 years, and some good press, is big stuff for UTC.

Stick: if you like your defense contract, you can keep your defense contract.

In short, a no-brainer deal for both sides.
Don't worry about it, the jobs were saved while Obama was still President, he will get full credit for keeping the jobs in the U.S.A.

[Tom]

'Cause that's a nice little defense contract youse guys got there, and it would be a shame if somethin' was to happen to it. Ya know what I mean?

Why on earth would we want to reward moving jobs out of the country with defense contracts?

[Fager Fan]

I object to it being called crony capitalism. That term suggests corruption, because these are usually deals between politicians and the private sector to benefit friends and family and such.

This was a deal to benefit the American people. Trump didn't do this deal to aid a bigwig friend at Carrier.

[JustRalph]

Don't worry about it, the jobs were saved while Obama was still President, he will get full credit for keeping the jobs in the U.S.A.

Just like the phony unemployment numbers they came out with today. Next month will whisk us down to 4.4 or some bullshit. Legacy baby!

[DSB]

Here's the way I think about this deal.

2 thousand jobs were scheduled to leave and only 1 thousand will.

To accomplish that, it was reported that the company will receive 7 million dollars of tax benefits (I'm not sure if that's pre tax or after tax).

What people are not considering is that if the US lost those other 1 thousand jobs, all of those people would become eligible for unemployment benefits, some would eventually become eligible for food stamps, medicaid, welfare etc... perhaps for quite a long time. So when you say the company is getting a 7 million dollar tax break, it's way less than a 7 million dollar giveaway from government. It could even be a net benefit depending on how long many of those people stay unemployed collecting some kind of benefits.
What this accomplishes is ongoing economic activity. What that results in is taxes being paid to both state and federal governments, probably in excess of what the tax breaks are. From what I understand, it's approximately $700 per year per job (I believe it's $7 million over a ten year period). A good paying job will result in more than that amount in tax revenues, plus the multiplier effect from the increased economic activity. Add to that the advantages listed above and it's well worth the effort.

[delayjf]

'Cause that's a nice little defense contract youse guys got there, and it would be a shame if somethin' was to happen to it. Ya know what I mean?

I'm all for free markets and reductions in unnecessary regulations, but I don't understand how allowing US Companies moving jobs overseas helps the American worker or the US economy.

Like Tom, I have no problem with the Government not awarding contracts to companies that move jobs overseas.

Maybe what's really needed is a national movement to buy American. Since the "Market" is really the American consumer, let the Market forces exert their influences.

[FantasticDan]

Just like the phony unemployment numbers they came out with today. Next month will whisk us down to 4.4 or some bullshit. Legacy baby! :confused: The unemployment rate has been on a continuing downward trend since it peaked in 2009.


http://data.bls.gov/generated_files/graphics/LNS14000000_73456_1480693568442.gif

[reckless]

I just love it that all the Trump bashers on here continue to try and diminish what Donald Trump has done so far.

As a reminder, Trump in fact has done exactly what he said he'd do during the campaign -- talk to companies like Ford, Carrier and Apple about manufacturing their products in the soon-to-be-Great Again America. Try to pooh-pooh yesterday's events all you'd like, but 1,100 blue collar workers and their families could really and truly have a happy and Merry Christmas thanks solely to Donald Trump, hard for all Trump haters to accept, I know.
So, piss on this fact all you'd like, just don't think for a second that people will think it's only rain.

And now, today, the great CEO Tim Cook has issued a statement saying that Apple will come home again and manufacture some of their products here in the USA. I guess Trump had nothing to do with that too.

And, Trump has done all this just three weeks after getting elected and two months before taking office!

Not bad considering all the experts on here told us that (1) Trump doesn't know anything about foreign trade; (2) Trump isn't as smart or as successful a businessman as he claims he is; (3) Trump wouldn't be able to do what he says he'll do; and, (4) all of Trump's supporters are too stupid to know better, so there.

[FantasticDan]

And now, today, the great CEO Tim Cook has issued a statement saying that Apple will come home again and manufacture some of their products here in the USA. I guess Trump had nothing to do with that too.
Such a statement would be big news, and yet I can't find any story or source to that effect. Link?

[elysiantraveller]

Why on earth would we want to reward moving jobs out of the country with defense contracts?

Do you want your Military paying 10 cents a bullet or paying 15 cents because it hits all the right "feels."

[woodtoo]

Do you want your Military paying 10 cents a bullet or paying 15 cents because it hits all the right "feels."
If it employs American families, it "feels" all right. :ThmbUp:

[lamboguy]

I just love it that all the Trump bashers on here continue to try and diminish what Donald Trump has done so far.

As a reminder, Trump in fact has done exactly what he said he'd do during the campaign -- talk to companies like Ford, Carrier and Apple about manufacturing their products in the soon-to-be-Great Again America. Try to pooh-pooh yesterday's events all you'd like, but 1,100 blue collar workers and their families could really and truly have a happy and Merry Christmas thanks solely to Donald Trump, hard for all Trump haters to accept, I know.
So, piss on this fact all you'd like, just don't think for a second that people will think it's only rain.

And now, today, the great CEO Tim Cook has issued a statement saying that Apple will come home again and manufacture some of their products here in the USA. I guess Trump had nothing to do with that too.

And, Trump has done all this just three weeks after getting elected and two months before taking office!

Not bad considering all the experts on here told us that (1) Trump doesn't know anything about foreign trade; (2) Trump isn't as smart or as successful a businessman as he claims he is; (3) Trump wouldn't be able to do what he says he'll do; and, (4) all of Trump's supporters are too stupid to know better, so there.i think that most of these bashers know as much about politics as Anastasia knew about barber shops.

[Clocker]

Moving jobs out of the country is not the issue I am talking about.

Trump and Pence bullied and bribed a private company to get the outcome that they decided was the right one. A lot of people, including here, look only at the outcome and are dancing in the virtual streets of the internet. This is the same mind-set that the liberal ladies of the Supreme Court use to decide the law. If they approve of the outcome, it is constitutional.

I don't care what the outcome is, I believe that the government should not be using its power to decide winners and losers in the private sector. How many here who are cheering this decision were highly opposed to Obama bailing out Chrysler or funding green industries, all in the name of jobs?

This was good politics on Trump's part. It makes his base happy and it establishes a precedent for more of the same. It isn't always going to have an outcome as agreeable to the base.

[EasyGoer89]

I just love it that all the Trump bashers on here continue to try and diminish what Donald Trump has done so far.

As a reminder, Trump in fact has done exactly what he said he'd do during the campaign -- talk to companies like Ford, Carrier and Apple about manufacturing their products in the soon-to-be-Great Again America. Try to pooh-pooh yesterday's events all you'd like, but 1,100 blue collar workers and their families could really and truly have a happy and Merry Christmas thanks solely to Donald Trump, hard for all Trump haters to accept, I know.
So, piss on this fact all you'd like, just don't think for a second that people will think it's only rain.

And now, today, the great CEO Tim Cook has issued a statement saying that Apple will come home again and manufacture some of their products here in the USA. I guess Trump had nothing to do with that too.

And, Trump has done all this just three weeks after getting elected and two months before taking office!

Not bad considering all the experts on here told us that (1) Trump doesn't know anything about foreign trade; (2) Trump isn't as smart or as successful a businessman as he claims he is; (3) Trump wouldn't be able to do what he says he'll do; and, (4) all of Trump's supporters are too stupid to know better, so there.

If you came from Mars a few days ago and watched the news, surfed the net and listened to the radio, there's no way you would be able to figure out that Trump isn't actually the CURRENT president.

Obozo' disappearing act speaks volumes, hilllary would have done the same exact thing, these loony toon babies can whine all they want, but they're getting left behind or run over by thr trump train.

Some of these loony lefters are going to go down with the ship instead of getting on board and putting America first.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

I'm all for free markets and reductions in unnecessary regulations, but I don't understand how allowing US Companies moving jobs overseas helps the American worker or the US economy.

Like Tom, I have no problem with the Government not awarding contracts to companies that move jobs overseas.

Maybe what's really needed is a national movement to buy American. Since the "Market" is really the American consumer, let the Market forces exert their influences.
As a free market guy, the intervention into Carrier is interference in the free market. But a couple of other things struck me. First, Carrier had garnered tax concessions with other plants in other areas. This wasn't the first time. Second, I wondered if they weren't trying to get out from underneath the union jobs at the plant. From ABC News:

President-elect Donald Trump touted his job-saving prowess in Indianapolis Thursday at a manufacturing plant, but a portion of the 1,100 jobs he says will now remain stateside may never have been intended to go to Mexico in the first place.

Sources familiar with the deal announced late Wednesday confirmed to ABC News that 800 jobs at the Carrier facility in Indianapolis would remain, but that 600 would still be outsourced to Mexico. The company had announced in February that the factory, which employs 1,400 workers to produce furnaces and furnace parts, would shut down operations over the next three years.

Carrier intends to retain 300 white-collar positions -- such as research and headquarters operations -- in Indianapolis, but those jobs were never going to Mexico.


Meanwhile, this was also happening.

Other nearby factories are still shuttering and sending jobs to Mexico. The United Technologies Electronic Controls factory in Huntington, Indiana, which is owned by the same parent company as Carrier, is sending 700 jobs to Mexico. The Rexnord Corporation ball bearings factory in Indianapolis, one mile away from the Carrier factory, is moving 350 jobs south of the border.

Free market means exactly that. However the government interferes, it changes the nature of free market. When Obama bailed out the auto companies, there was a lot of yelling about whether the government should let them go bankrupt. In the case of Carrier, the taxpayers will still be liable for 18 months of unemployment benefits for the workers who lose their jobs.

I wonder if the corporate mentality in the future will be, threaten to move to Mexico whether or not you are serious just to get tax breaks or to do some union busting. What makes capitalism strong are the forces of the market left to work their own magic. When the government decides to force free market decisions it runs the risk of running the free market into the ditch. I think the government should do what it can do best - set an economic policy that sets the table for the market to work to the best advantage of America.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Moving jobs out of the country is not the issue I am talking about.

Trump and Pence bullied and bribed a private company to get the outcome that they decided was the right one. A lot of people, including here, look only at the outcome and are dancing in the virtual streets of the internet. This is the same mind-set that the liberal ladies of the Supreme Court use to decide the law. If they approve of the outcome, it is constitutional.

I don't care what the outcome is, I believe that the government should not be using its power to decide winners and losers in the private sector. How many here who are cheering this decision were highly opposed to Obama bailing out Chrysler or funding green industries, all in the name of jobs?

This was good politics on Trump's part. It makes his base happy and it establishes a precedent for more of the same. It isn't always going to have an outcome as agreeable to the base.
Holy sh*t we agree

[EasyGoer89]

Moving jobs out of the country is not the issue I am talking about.

Trump and Pence bullied and bribed a private company to get the outcome that they decided was the right one. A lot of people, including here, look only at the outcome and are dancing in the virtual streets of the internet. This is the same mind-set that the liberal ladies of the Supreme Court use to decide the law. If they approve of the outcome, it is constitutional.

I don't care what the outcome is, I believe that the government should not be using its power to decide winners and losers in the private sector. How many here who are cheering this decision were highly opposed to Obama bailing out Chrysler or funding green industries, all in the name of jobs?

This was good politics on Trump's part. It makes his base happy and it establishes a precedent for more of the same. It isn't always going to have an outcome as agreeable to the base.

Bribed and bullied? That's a strong statement.

[EasyGoer89]

As a free market guy, the intervention into Carrier is interference in the free market. But a couple of other things struck me. First, Carrier had garnered tax concessions with other plants in other areas. This wasn't the first time. Second, I wondered if they weren't trying to get out from underneath the union jobs at the plant. From ABC News:

President-elect Donald Trump touted his job-saving prowess in Indianapolis Thursday at a manufacturing plant, but a portion of the 1,100 jobs he says will now remain stateside may never have been intended to go to Mexico in the first place.

Sources familiar with the deal announced late Wednesday confirmed to ABC News that 800 jobs at the Carrier facility in Indianapolis would remain, but that 600 would still be outsourced to Mexico. The company had announced in February that the factory, which employs 1,400 workers to produce furnaces and furnace parts, would shut down operations over the next three years.

Carrier intends to retain 300 white-collar positions -- such as research and headquarters operations -- in Indianapolis, but those jobs were never going to Mexico.


Meanwhile, this was also happening.

Other nearby factories are still shuttering and sending jobs to Mexico. The United Technologies Electronic Controls factory in Huntington, Indiana, which is owned by the same parent company as Carrier, is sending 700 jobs to Mexico. The Rexnord Corporation ball bearings factory in Indianapolis, one mile away from the Carrier factory, is moving 350 jobs south of the border.

Free market means exactly that. However the government interferes, it changes the nature of free market. When Obama bailed out the auto companies, there was a lot of yelling about whether the government should let them go bankrupt. In the case of Carrier, the taxpayers will still be liable for 18 months of unemployment benefits for the workers who lose their jobs.

I wonder if the corporate mentality in the future will be, threaten to move to Mexico whether or not you are serious just to get tax breaks or to do some union busting. What makes capitalism strong are the forces of the market left to work their own magic. When the government decides to force free market decisions it runs the risk of running the free market into the ditch. I think the government should do what it can do best - set an economic policy that sets the table for the market to work to the best advantage of America.

It's not interference In a free market. Carrier didn't have to do anything or change anything the decision they made was of their own free will.

[Clocker]

It's not interference In a free market. Carrier didn't have to do anything or change anything the decision they made was of their own free will.

Carrier had made a decision to move to Mexico. Using current and future government power, Trump and Pence got them to reverse that decision. How is that not interference in a free market business decision?

[EasyGoer89]

Carrier had made a decision to move to Mexico. Using current and future government power, Trump and Pence got them to reverse that decision. How is that not interference in a free market business decision?

They could have just said thanks but no thanks?

[Clocker]

They could have just said thanks but no thanks?

Some times the Don, I mean The Donald, makes you an offer you can't refuse. ;)

[EasyGoer89]

Some times the Don, I mean The Donald, makes you an offer you can't refuse. ;)

So if that's what happened isn't that good for American workers? How does it hurt if the 'bribing' is going to help this country? It's not like he bribed them to GO to Mexico.

[Tom]

Carrier had made a decision to move to Mexico. Using current and future government power, Trump and Pence got them to reverse that decision. How is that not interference in a free market business decision?

Are high taxes and over-regulation also not interference?
That is a part of the decision they made to leave.
So Trump steps and saves jobs. Short term solution.

Fix the real problems after he gets in office so companies will have a reason to stay here.

So 1,000 people don't lose their jobs now.
I will take that interference any day.

[EasyGoer89]

Are high taxes and over-regulation also not interference?
That is a part of the decision they made to leave.
So Trump steps and saves jobs. Short term solution.

Fix the real problems after he gets in office so companies will have a reason to stay here.

So 1,000 people don't lose their jobs now.
I will take that interference any day.
Some workers at carrier were crying tears of joy. That says a lot right there.

#hesmypresident

[delayjf]

OK - for the sake of argument, lets say we have a free market. And any company that wants to move it's operations overseas can and does. I can see how that would be good for (in this case Mexico), but how is that good for the US? Or, does the US worker simply have to accept that if he wants a job, he has to be willing to work for the same wages that the company will pay in Mexico or china?

And the other question, should the US, in keeping with the free market, outsource it's gov contracts to foreign countries. And what would the effect of that be on the US economy?

Using current and future government power, Trump and Pence got them to reverse that decision. How is that not interference in a free market business decision?

Whose best interest is the Government acting in behalf of in this case?

[delayjf]

I don't care what the outcome is, I believe that the government should not be using its power to decide winners and losers in the private sector. How many here who are cheering this decision were highly opposed to Obama bailing out Chrysler or funding green industries, all in the name of jobs?

Question regarding Gov Contracts:

If the Gov is purchasing a service or product, tanks, fighter jets, aircraft carriers, etc. are they not now a part of or and entity of the "Market"?

[FantasticDan]

So 1,000 people don't lose their jobs now.
I will take that interference any day.
And yet, you were rabidly against the auto bailout "interference" that saved 1.5 MILLION US jobs. Huh! :blush:

http://www.reuters.com/article/autos-bailout-study-idUSL1N0JO0XU20131209

[Clocker]

Question regarding Gov Contracts:

If the Gov is purchasing a service or product, tanks, fighter jets, aircraft carriers, etc. are they not now a part of or and entity of the "Market"?

It is a buyer in the market. It is not using its legal power to force anyone to do anything, it is using its buying power (we hope) to get the best deal it can. Just like WalMart uses its buying power to get the best from suppliers.

[Fager Fan]

Moving jobs out of the country is not the issue I am talking about.

Trump and Pence bullied and bribed a private company to get the outcome that they decided was the right one. A lot of people, including here, look only at the outcome and are dancing in the virtual streets of the internet. This is the same mind-set that the liberal ladies of the Supreme Court use to decide the law. If they approve of the outcome, it is constitutional.

I don't care what the outcome is, I believe that the government should not be using its power to decide winners and losers in the private sector. How many here who are cheering this decision were highly opposed to Obama bailing out Chrysler or funding green industries, all in the name of jobs?

This was good politics on Trump's part. It makes his base happy and it establishes a precedent for more of the same. It isn't always going to have an outcome as agreeable to the base.

I stopped at the "bullied and bribed" part. Nonsense.

[Clocker]

I stopped at the "bullied and bribed" part. Nonsense.

Would you prefer carrot and stick? Or how about jawboning and corporate welfare?

Carrier changed its plans in response to political pressure and government incentives. Call it whatever makes you happy. But you can't deny the reality of what happened.

[Fager Fan]

Question regarding Gov Contracts:

If the Gov is purchasing a service or product, tanks, fighter jets, aircraft carriers, etc. are they not now a part of or and entity of the "Market"?

Clocker apparently wants us to buy our goods and services from foreign corporations, else its crony capitalism.

[Fager Fan]

And yet, you were rabidly against the auto bailout "interference" that saved 1.5 MILLION US jobs. Huh! :blush:

http://www.reuters.com/article/autos-bailout-study-idUSL1N0JO0XU20131209

This wasn't a bail out. Big difference. When you run your company (or state) into the ground, I'm against the government bailing you out. I'd rather Ford was sold to the highest bidder. The stockholders would've been the ones hurt. The employees would've very likely kept working for the new boss/owner.

[Clocker]

Clocker apparently wants us to buy our goods and services from foreign corporations, else its crony capitalism.

Don't make up things I didn't say. The government as a customer can make decisions about who to buy from just like a citizen can decide to buy American. The issue here is using legal power to affect market decisions of private parties.

[elysiantraveller]

Don't make up things I didn't say. The government as a customer can make decisions about who to buy from just like a citizen can decide to buy American. The issue here is using legal power to affect market decisions of private parties.

It doesn't matter since it's "their" guy doing it.

I want the market picking winners.

[elysiantraveller]

If it employs American families, it "feels" all right. :ThmbUp:

Dumbest thing I've heard all week.

Don't ever buy at a big box store either...?

[JustRalph]

And yet, you were rabidly against the auto bailout "interference" that saved 1.5 MILLION US jobs. Huh! :blush:

http://www.reuters.com/article/autos-bailout-study-idUSL1N0JO0XU20131209

That was a direct payback to the UAW. In collusion with the Dems. Those companies ripped off tax payers and don't forget the bond holders who never got paid.

This Indiana deal will cost Indiana tax payers roughly 95 cents each. And it doesn't disenfranchise bond holders or take pensions away from people who earned them. The Delphi employees lost all of their pensions!

NO COMPARISON!

[JustRalph]

It doesn't matter since it's "their" guy doing it.

I want the market picking winners.

It's a little crony capitalism. But for once it benefited some Americans. I'll take a little.

Just remember what the alternative was? She would be picking Supreme Court judges and looking for targets to attack with the IRS and justice department right up until Inauguration Day.

[EasyGoer89]

Would you prefer carrot and stick? Or how about jawboning and corporate welfare?

Carrier changed its plans in response to political pressure and government incentives. Call it whatever makes you happy. But you can't deny the reality of what happened.

They're not going to do anything that the math says doesn't make sense. If trump was bullying them he wouldn't have given them concessions and wouldn't be screaming about lowering business taxes as well as getting rid of unnecessary regulations, he could keep everything in place and just bully people, no?

Carrier made a math decision, they wouldn't have done it had the math not worked.

[Clocker]

It's a little crony capitalism. But for once it benefited some Americans. I'll take a little.



A "little"? Where do you draw the line? I know it goes on, and Trump has had more than his share over the years. And I know that Trump is going to dole out more than his share over the next four years. Trump said he would drain the swamp. He just stuck his toe in the swamp in Indiana and said, the water's fine. And basically nothing will change.

I just like pointing out that the emperor has no clothes. Trump goes on and on about being a great business man and a deal maker and a yuge supporter of the free market. In reality, he thinks that he knows better than the market, and that he can improve things with tariffs, trade agreements, and corporate welfare. He's a hypocrite. But still preferable to Hillary.

[JustRalph]

A "little"? Where do you draw the line? I know it goes on, and Trump has had more than his share over the years. And I know that Trump is going to dole out more than his share over the next four years. Trump said he would drain the swamp. He just stuck his toe in the swamp in Indiana and said, the water's fine. And basically nothing will change.

I just like pointing out that the emperor has no clothes. Trump goes on and on about being a great business man and a deal maker and a yuge supporter of the free market. In reality, he thinks that he knows better than the market, and that he can improve things with tariffs, trade agreements, and corporate welfare. He's a hypocrite. But still preferable to Hillary.

I don't disagree. At all. But the last five words of your post sum up everything.

[JustRalph]

Just like the phony unemployment numbers they came out with today. Next month will whisk us down to 4.4 or some bullshit. Legacy baby!

And so it begins........check out this utter bullshit!!!

http://twitchy.com/sd-3133/2016/12/02/trumps-inheriting-obamas-what-this-politico-headline-is-just-too-much/?utm_content=buffer10084&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

[MutuelClerk]

It's interesting watching all this. Everyone on TV thinks they what Trump is going to do the next four years. Most of the people on this website seem to know what Trump is going to do the next four years. What's interesting is almost everyone the right, the left, swing voters, old, young, black, white have been pretty much wrong about our President elect. Keep doing what you're doing Donald. Keep both sides guessing. Keep both sides in fear. Make the government actually work. Get things done.

[Clocker]

I don't disagree. At all. But the last five words of your post sum up everything.

I'm just trying to inject a little reality into the world of Trumpsters who think he walks on top of the swamp water. For whatever good the Carrier deal did, and no matter how much the fans deny it, it was corporate welfare. And there is going to be a lot more of it over the next four years. And some of it won't be as pretty.

Obama used corporate welfare to promote green industries. The Carrier deal just indicates a shift in direction, toward promoting traditional manufacturing industries.

[EasyGoer89]

I'm just trying to inject a little reality into the world of Trumpsters who think he walks on top of the swamp water. For whatever good the Carrier deal did, and no matter how much the fans deny it, it was corporate welfare. And there is going to be a lot more of it over the next four years. And some of it won't be as pretty.

Obama used corporate welfare to promote green industries. The Carrier deal just indicates a shift in direction, toward promoting traditional manufacturing industries.

You're missing the big picture. There's no need to nitpick every word of every deal, the guy is going to be making a lOT of deals, with companies in this country and the world, he's america's 'ceo' and he's going to run this place like a business and not a welfare state. Do you know how much money will be saved just on him cutting government waste? Forget all the other stuff, he's going to trim the fat bigly.

Isnt that what we want as americans, our tax dollars not getting wasted on the most nonsensical stuff you could imagine?

[classhandicapper]

Do you really think that the federal government should be micromanaging the economy at this level of detail, let alone the president or soon to be president getting involved? Do you really think that any of the considerations you point out were involved in the decision? Or was it all an ego trip for Trump? Four years of that as a basis for policy at the White House?

You already know what I think.

I think free trade is a economic fantasy that doesn't work very well in the real world where standards of living are dramatically different, regulations are different, currencies can be manipulated, trade deals are not fair, governments can intervene etc...

I think the "net" value of the deal was definitely considered, but it was mostly about keeping the jobs and getting good publicity for Trump.

[Fager Fan]

Don't make up things I didn't say. The government as a customer can make decisions about who to buy from just like a citizen can decide to buy American. The issue here is using legal power to affect market decisions of private parties.

I'm fairly sure you made a big deal of Carrier (and it could be any American corp) getting a government contract, and called it crony capitalism. So who are they going to give the contract to where it won't be crony capitalism?

[Clocker]

You already know what I think.

I think free trade is a economic fantasy that doesn't work very well in the real world where standards of living are dramatically different, regulations are different, currencies can be manipulated, trade deals are not fair, governments can intervene etc...


So rather than doing anything to fix it, we need to just quit trying?

Well, you are going to love the Trump-Pence administration then. They said today that the free market doesn't work, so I guess that we are lucky to have a couple of smart guys like that to decide on the government imposed solutions.

“I don’t want them moving out of the country without consequences,” Mr. Trump said, even if that means angering the free-market-oriented Republicans he beat in the primaries but will have to work with on Capitol Hill.

“The free market has been sorting it out and America’s been losing,” Mr. Pence added, as Mr. Trump interjected, “Every time, every time.”



http://www.redstate.com/patterico/2016/12/02/incoming-trump-pence-administration-free-market-failed/ (http://www.redstate.com/patterico/2016/12/02/incoming-trump-pence-administration-free-market-failed/)

[Clocker]

I'm fairly sure you made a big deal of Carrier (and it could be any American corp) getting a government contract, and called it crony capitalism. So who are they going to give the contract to where it won't be crony capitalism?

It is the parent company that has the contract, and I didn't say a word about them getting it and I didn't call that crony capitalism.

[Fager Fan]

I'm just trying to inject a little reality into the world of Trumpsters who think he walks on top of the swamp water. For whatever good the Carrier deal did, and no matter how much the fans deny it, it was corporate welfare. And there is going to be a lot more of it over the next four years. And some of it won't be as pretty.

Obama used corporate welfare to promote green industries. The Carrier deal just indicates a shift in direction, toward promoting traditional manufacturing industries.

You're so wrong. All areas try to entice. There are states which have no state taxes to entice people to live in their state. That is supposedly crony capitalism by your definition. Some have no sales taxes, again, crony capitalism. Some provide parks and green spaces, and libraries and programs. Some have lower city taxes than others.

So you have a problem when a city tries to revitalize its downtown thru incentives like loans and tax breaks. I don't. I'm a realist who knows you have to incentivize else no one in their right mind will take that leap. The benefits for the community outweighs the cost.

Every law, every tax, every regulation, all have good and bad. You're for totally free trade but I realize that someone can't compete when they have to pay $15/hr legally while someone else can pay $3 legally. So I'm a realist. The high tax rates and minimum wage and healthcare requirements and OSHA and other safety requirements and non-discrimination requirements and maternity leave requirements and a world of other regulations we put on companies, you act as if those things don't "pick a winner" but they do, with the winner being those who we don't require the same thing of.

Companies pay their dues. So they offer something to the local government that the government wants. I don't mind them negotiating to get it, namely jobs and a better life for the people.

[Clocker]

You're so wrong. All areas try to entice.

Do you think it appropriate for the president or the president-elect to get involved in an issue like this?

[EasyGoer89]

Do you think it appropriate for the president or the president-elect to get involved in an issue like this?

If he doesn't get involved, who will? Keep in mind that the main reason they were leaving in the first place is because of taxes, regulations and the 'math' made more sense to leave. If the Pres Elect can FIX the math, him getting involved is a good thing, remember, he can fix the math, fix the regulations and fix the taxes, and that was the reason they were leaving in the first place, it was a math problem and the guy who can fix their math gave them a call. Nothing nefarious about it.

[Fager Fan]

Do you think it appropriate for the president or the president-elect to get involved in an issue like this?

Absolutely. He should done erything he can that will help the country.

[Clocker]

If he doesn't get involved, who will? Keep in mind that the main reason they were leaving in the first place is because of taxes, regulations and the 'math' made more sense to leave. If the Pres Elect can FIX the math, him getting involved is a good thing, remember, he can fix the math, fix the regulations and fix the taxes, and that was the reason they were leaving in the first place, it was a math problem and the guy who can fix their math gave them a call. Nothing nefarious about it.

Trump didn't fix anything. Trump pressured the CEO and Pence, as Governor, bought them off. Carrot and stick. Do you really think that $7 million over 10 years makes the math come out, and that is why they agreed to stay? This was pure politics, and the parent company is going along for 4 years of goodwill with the new president. That's why they call it crony capitalism. The CEO of UTC is now good buddies with the prez.

And what are the odds that Trump is going to fix the math for hundreds of other companies facing the same problems?

[rastajenk]

I tend to agree with you on most issues and in general principles, and you are almost always on point and with a good foundation, Mr Clocker. But here I think your economic puritanism is keeping you from appreciating the change in the pendulum's swing. I tend to agree with those that think this Carrier deal is good and symbolic of a hands-on change of leadership styles, without the stench of Solyndra or something totally manufactured like that.

I think it was Scott Adams (Dilbert) in his blog who noted that the good pub Carrier gets regardless of the particulars of the deal is better than several Super Bowl ad campaigns. Others will follow. A leader leads, not from behind. To nitpick the particulars is to become fellow travelers with those who are so invested as Trump as a failure that nothing he says or does is anything but the next step to total desolation. I don't think you want to be that. Appreciate the change in current, even if it doesn't hit all your economic check-boxes, which are learned and respectable.

:ThmbUp:

[EasyGoer89]

Trump didn't fix anything. Trump pressured the CEO and Pence, as Governor, bought them off. Carrot and stick. Do you really think that $7 million over 10 years makes the math come out, and that is why they agreed to stay? This was pure politics, and the parent company is going along for 4 years of goodwill with the new president. That's why they call it crony capitalism. The CEO of UTC is now good buddies with the prez.

And what are the odds that Trump is going to fix the math for hundreds of other companies facing the same problems?

You sound angry in a time when you should be happy we have an amazing president, an incredible person with a heart of gold who's going to work his tail off to fix what's broken in this great land, why so hurt?

Also, go back and read post 102, FF explained to you about 'crony capitalism' have a re-read of what he wrote.

Trump isn't going to fix the math for everyone, but he's going to try his best, its infinitely better than anything crooked illary (i left off the H for savings!) would have done and certainly better than anything Obozo has done or even attempted.

Lighten up, come over to the winners, life is short.

[reckless]

Crony capitalism? This Carrier deal is nothing of the sort.

Crony capitalism is when one company (or industry) uses their allies in the government to benefit themselves at the expense of another corporate rival. The company 'buys' this influence through campaign donations, etc. The government in turn takes the dirty corporate lucre to reward these same friends of theirs with government contracts, set asides, creating indirect and sometimes, direct, monopolies, and general contracts and deals.

This isn't what happened in the Carrier situation in the truest most horrible way it is being portrayed on here.

President Trump reminded the CEO of United Technology, parent of Carrier, that they do roughly $7 billion a year in business with the federal government. Then, President Trump simply asked the gentleman does he wish to put these other businesses at risk.

The CEO then probably said to himself 'hmm, let's see here... 1,100 US jobs versus $7 billion US dollars ... horrible publicity versus great good will ... It's a no-brainer... Viva la Indiana!'

The United Technology CEO must have memorized The Art of the Deal because he made one hell of a deal this week, didn't he?

[reckless]

Such a statement would be big news, and yet I can't find any story or source to that effect. Link?

Here's one that I read. There was another similar story within days of Trump's landslide election but I could not find it either. The great CEO Tim Cook was actually quoted in that one too about exploring the possibility of doing work in the soon-to-be-great-again USA.

https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/18/report-apple-asked-manufacturing-partners-to-explore-making-iphones-in-the-u-s/

[porchy44]

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

"Ronald Reagan"

I myself am fine with President Trump's Carrier deal.
But, they sure are growing a different breed of republican's these days.

[classhandicapper]

So rather than doing anything to fix it, we need to just quit trying?

Well, you are going to love the Trump-Pence administration then. They said today that the free market doesn't work, so I guess that we are lucky to have a couple of smart guys like that to decide on the government imposed solutions.



http://www.redstate.com/patterico/2016/12/02/incoming-trump-pence-administration-free-market-failed/ (http://www.redstate.com/patterico/2016/12/02/incoming-trump-pence-administration-free-market-failed/)

Where did I say I don't want to fix it.

At least Trump (like Perot years ago) is honest enough to look at what's going on in the real world (and not in a text book) and conclude that the country is getting gutted of jobs by these deals and the only ones making out are the corporations, workers in other countries, and those that didn't lose their job "yet" by getting cheaper goods. There has been a net transfer of wealth out of the US to the tune of trillions.

The free market DOES NOT work for international trade when there are vast differences in countries. That's the whole point. The theory is FOS unless you have a 50-100 year time perspective to balance all these things out. 50-100 years is all good and well unless you are out of job and now and the government is paying for your unemployment, food stamps, medicaid, welfare etc.. because you can't find a job good enough to support your family.

Something has to be changed and part of that is creating a more attractive environment here so companies don't leave. Part of it is changing the deals. Part of it is having a sounder monetary system etc..

This is what you are arguing.

"I have a theory that I know it is right and will work long term".

But you are ignoring the ongoing reality and results of that theory over the shorter term (as I did for 15-20 years).

[HalvOnHorseracing]

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

Not so scary if it is your house on fire and the government agency showing up is the fire department. Not so scary if you turn your faucet on and don't have to worry about drinking what comes out. Not so scary when the government in the form of the military is protecting your shores. Not so scary when the public schools are educating your children.

[reckless]

Not so scary if it is your house on fire and the government agency showing up is the fire department. Not so scary if you turn your faucet on and don't have to worry about drinking what comes out. Not so scary when the government in the form of the military is protecting your shores. Not so scary when the public schools are educating your children.

It's plenty scary watching all the well educated little darlings these past few weeks protesting and saying that Hillary was elected president despite not voting themselves because she won the popular vote ... that is kind of scary to me, Rich.

It's also pretty scary when you get the IRS hounding you because of your political leanings but only to those whose leanings lean right -- that's scary to me, Rich.

Or the same IRS taking money out of your bank account or your home without being warned if you didn't buy ObamaCare health insurance. I know, I know.... we don't believe that this was ever done but it was in the 'Affordable Care Act' law that the Democrats passed and Obama signed. That's why ObamaCare provided millions of dollars of funding for the IRS to hire agents and not towards health or care.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

It's plenty scary watching all the well educated little darlings these past few weeks protesting and saying that Hillary was elected president despite not voting themselves because she won the popular vote ... that is kind of scary to me, Rich.

It's also pretty scary when you get the IRS hounding you because of your political leanings but only to those whose leanings lean right -- that's scary to me, Rich.

Or the same IRS taking money out of your bank account or your home without being warned if you didn't buy ObamaCare health insurance. I know, I know.... we don't believe that this was ever done but it was in the 'Affordable Care Act' law that the Democrats passed and Obama signed. That's why ObamaCare provided millions of dollars of funding for the IRS to hire agents and not towards health or care.
There is a lot of government that is not scary, but in fact does perform important services, especially when it comes to keeping us safe. Many of the people who repeat, government is not the solution, it is the problem, do everything they can to make that true. There are government agencies that abuse their power as well, and they ought to be called out.

The people protesting Trump's victory are not the government. But the protesting happens on both sides. Remember when the Tea Party was in its prime?

What would scare me is a country where nobody protested. The difference between America and many other countries is that our constitution guarantees us the right to protest against the government without fear of being arbitrarily incarcerated. Much harder for the government to get away with abuse in America because of that.

Abuse of power scares me. Here's an example.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/11/18/1601020/-Abortion-Doctor-Writes-Powerful-Response-to-Anti-Abortion-Witch-Hunt-by-Congress

[ElKabong]

What would scare me is a country where nobody protested. The difference between America and many other countries is that our constitution guarantees us the right to protest against....

Get a clue, the protest took place on Election Day.

[EasyGoer89]

There is a lot of government that is not scary, but in fact does perform important services, especially when it comes to keeping us safe. Many of the people who repeat, government is not the solution, it is the problem, do everything they can to make that true. There are government agencies that abuse their power as well, and they ought to be called out.

The people protesting Trump's victory are not the government. But the protesting happens on both sides. Remember when the Tea Party was in its prime?

What would scare me is a country where nobody protested. The difference between America and many other countries is that our constitution guarantees us the right to protest against the government without fear of being arbitrarily incarcerated. Much harder for the government to get away with abuse in America because of that.

Abuse of power scares me. Here's an example.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/11/18/1601020/-Abortion-Doctor-Writes-Powerful-Response-to-Anti-Abortion-Witch-Hunt-by-Congress

Protesting is fine and encouraged, the thugs on the left take it to another level though with physical violence and defacing property.

[Tom]

Remember when the Tea Party was in its prime?

Surely you are not trying to compare the Tea Party rallies with the bought and paid for violence that followed Trump throughout the primaries?

How many flags did they burn?
How many highways did they shut down?

[reckless]

There is a lot of government that is not scary, but in fact does perform important services, especially when it comes to keeping us safe. Many of the people who repeat, government is not the solution, it is the problem, do everything they can to make that true. There are government agencies that abuse their power as well, and they ought to be called out.

The people protesting Trump's victory are not the government. But the protesting happens on both sides. Remember when the Tea Party was in its prime?

What would scare me is a country where nobody protested. The difference between America and many other countries is that our constitution guarantees us the right to protest against the government without fear of being arbitrarily incarcerated. Much harder for the government to get away with abuse in America because of that.

Abuse of power scares me. Here's an example.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/11/18/1601020/-Abortion-Doctor-Writes-Powerful-Response-to-Anti-Abortion-Witch-Hunt-by-Congress

Rich, I am not an anarchist... essential services are needed and they are best provided by our local government, not the national government and not private industry.

I feel the problems people in general have toward the 'government' is what eminates out of Washington DC or your own state capital, and not the local variety.

Those ignorant darlings I mentioned... I mentioned them not to describe them as an arm of the government, but as a example of our school system. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Ahh, the Tea Party. What exactly is it that bothers you about the Tea Party? Whatever influence they had, it was soon squelched by the IRS targeting these conservative organizations. The government did harrass the Tea Partiers and they did this through their gestapo arm, the IRS. The IRS never bothered Occupy Wall Street, did they?

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Surely you are not trying to compare the Tea Party rallies with the bought and paid for violence that followed Trump throughout the primaries?

How many flags did they burn?
How many highways did they shut down?
No, those Tea Partiers were all great Americans. Most of the time you could tell how important America was to them but the number of government checks coming to their house each month. You know what I say

KEEP YOUR GOVERNMENT HANDS OFF MY MEDICARE!

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Rich, I am not an anarchist... essential services are needed and they are best provided by our local government, not the national government and not private industry.
I think there are critical services at all three levels. Obviously the military at the federal level, education at the state and local level. I was only noting that those who use, I'm from the government and I'm here to help as a pejorative would be better served just calling out the parts they don't like, because obviously there are a lot of government functions that would cost far more if we lost all the economies of scale.


[/QUOTE]Those ignorant darlings I mentioned... I mentioned them not to describe them as an arm of the government, but as a example of our school system. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.[/QUOTE]
There are a lot of smart people who are products of the public school system. There are also a lot of people who went to Ivy League schools that I would describe as educated beyond their intelligence. Generally you should thank your mom and dad for whatever brains you wound up with, and blame yourself if you didn't use them to their best advantage.

[/QUOTE]Ahh, the Tea Party. What exactly is it that bothers you about the Tea Party? Whatever influence they had, it was soon squelched by the IRS targeting these conservative organizations. The government did harrass the Tea Partiers and they did this through their gestapo arm, the IRS. The IRS never bothered Occupy Wall Street, did they?[/QUOTE]
Absolutely nothing bothers me about the Tea Party. Well, that's not totally true. I have a problem with people who complain without understanding something. I'll give you a related example. I referee High School basketball. If I had a dollar for every time someone yelled "three seconds" when it wasn't three seconds by rule, I wouldn't have to referee to make money. Just know what you are talking about and we can have a fine conversation.

I only pointed out that each side has its extremes. I was totally fine when the Tea Party was protesting. That's how the people make their feelings known and start the process of change. Just to be clear, if I had a problem it was with the hypocrites among them. Send me my entitlement check, give me free health care, I'm not paying taxes anyway, but I hate the government. But if you want to protest for lower taxes and smaller government, great, as long as you are consistent.

I had to laugh about the Occupy Wall Street complaint. Half of them were homeless people who wanted to sleep in parks where the police wouldn't let them, and there was no organization for the IRS to go after. That was one discombobulated group. And they had a real lasting impact too. Just look where Wall Street is now.

I'll say the same thing I have said. Peaceful protest is a good thing to catalyze change, and there has been plenty of that. A few people going off the deep end shouldn't define the world, either side.

[JustRalph]

No, those Tea Partiers were all great Americans. Most of the time you could tell how important America was to them but the number of government checks coming to their house each month. You know what I say

KEEP YOUR GOVERNMENT HANDS OFF MY MEDICARE!

Where do you get that Tea Party types get more Gov. Checks than anybody else?

Medicare btw is something we pay for, not a freebie.

Why don't you just admit you're a big government leftie?

Everything government does is always done better by private companies.

You mention the fire dept. water etc.

There are examples of private versions of those services working much better. If you're so trusting of government water, head up to Flint Mi for a drink

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Where do you get that Tea Party types get more Gov. Checks than anybody else?

Medicare btw is something we pay for, not a freebie.

Why don't you just admit you're a big government leftie?

Everything government does is always done better by private companies.

You mention the fire dept. water etc.

There are examples of private versions of those services working much better. If you're so trusting of government water, head up to Flint Mi for a drink
Glad you asked.

The headline for the story is Many Tea Party Activists, Out Of Work, Turn To Government For Help
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/28/tea-party-protesters-rely_n_516063.html

Or this one,

Why anti-government tea partiers still love government entitlements

http://theweek.com/articles/553851/why-antigovernment-tea-partiers-still-love-government-entitlements

I'm a big government leftie? Right. It must have been every time I said there are government agencies that overstep their bounds and should be called on it you must have been out of the room. I've simply said government performs a lot of important functions and does many of them well. The military comes to mind.

I bet you'd have been the first one to step up and privatize the police force. You're right that it would have been cheaper. No union to negotiate with. Save a little money buying used police cars. I'll bet you could think of a lot of ways to save money. You know, it would be just like the private security that guards office buildings. I feel safer already.

And yes, there are private fire fighting firms that primarily supplement government fire fighting agencies in emergencies, like say extreme wildfire. They are contractors, and I happen to know for a fact, they are quite costly, which is why they only come in during emergencies.

Or this new trend in wealthy neighborhoods.

Yet another, more socially vexing concept is the one designed by companies such as Golden Valley Fire Suppression, based in Carmel Valley, Calif. Next month the firm will begin selling private fire services directly to property owners in areas already served by municipal fire departments. For a fee of $30,000, the company will supply fire protection for as long as the customer owns the home. It plans to station its own fire trucks in carefully chosen “clusters’’ near paying customers in order to guarantee a response time of under five minutes. Golden Valley intends to launch similar operations in Las Vegas and Tucson.

Sure, starve the government agencies to create a demand that only the rich can afford.

Oh yeah, the federal government announced it is doing away with privatization of federal prisons because it was costing them more money and they were getting worse service than the government run prisons. That is one of the greatest myths the wing-nuts on the right try to perpetrate. Think about it for two seconds. One is a for profit operation, the other is non-profit. It's purely a management issue. A well run not-for-profit agency will be cheaper than a for profit agency.

Funny you mentioned Flint. This is from politifact:

Based on what is currently known, (the Republican governor) Snyder does bear a significant share of the responsibility. His fiscal approach helped set the stage for the water switch that led to the poisoning, and it was his hand-picked emergency managers who implemented the changes. Snyder also oversaw the state environmental and health departments that have come in for sharp criticism for their failures to act quickly and forcefully when the first indications of a problem cropped up.


You've got your bleeding heart liberals vs. the stone hearted conservatives. Life is really simple when you only have to see one side of an issue.

[JustRalph]

Nice links but I don't read fake news sites :lol:

I lived in a community with its own water and it was 1/4 of what I've paid all over the country. I have friends that pay about 10% of what it costs in a municipality, for their rural fire coverage. And the pay is almost the same for the firefighters. Both full time. Police and Fire levies are notoriously wasteful.

Just my opine

You mean those stone hearted conservatives that give so much more to charity than liberals?

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Nice links but I don't read fake news sites :lol:

That may be the ironic statement of the year!

[Tom]

From someone quoting the HuffPo! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[EasyGoer89]

That may be the ironic statement of the year!

2016 is the year of the independent researcher and the Twitter user, those people are their own bosses so you know what's coming from them is their own thoughts for their own brand. Huge news conglomerates are doing and saying what they're told to say, we have options now. The Cnns and huffington posts are just propaganda, every shred of 'news' they release is to be taken with a grain of a grain.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

From someone quoting the HuffPo! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
It was a New York Times article passed along by HuffPo, although I'm sure the Times isn't considered any better.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Sarah Palin worried it is crony capitalism, now I'm really confused.

[woodtoo]

Carrier had made a decision to move to Mexico. Using current and future government power, Trump and Pence got them to reverse that decision. How is that not interference in a free market business decision?
I can see your having a hard time winning. You may come to like it but I kinda doubt it. :faint:

[JustRalph]

That may be the ironic statement of the year!

Note that I was laughing

[Tom]

It was a New York Times article passed along by HuffPo, although I'm sure the Times isn't considered any better.

Correct. The Times has zero credibility.

[jk3521]

Note that I was laughing

Isn't every "news site " made up of mostly fake stories? They gather information and make up an story . The Wash Post and Wash Times are no better than the Enquirer.

[EasyGoer89]

Isn't every "news site " made up of mostly fake stories? They gather information and make up an story . The Wash Post and Wash Times are no better than the Enquirer.

The difference between someone like NY Times/CNN or Alex Jones for example is that with jones you are getting from the highest person on the food chain at his company and that persons business completely depends on being correct and producing accurate content. With CNN, not only are you not getting news from the bosses mouth, but you're getting news from a person who won't lose their job if they are wrong or if they lie and the company won't go out of business if they peddle fake news. If jones peddles fake news, he's finished. Not so with CNN or NYT

[Tom]

The talking heads at CNN and PMSNBC are the one who did not make the cut at SNL. They are re-auditioning live every day.

[elysiantraveller]

This whole post is absolutely absurd when we have "republicans" offering handouts for businesses to coerce them.

The State of Indiana just gave a company $7 MILLION dollars in tax breaks (I'm sure they shrink their budget to offset that) to save 1,000 jobs.

Stunning victory for Republicanism and the President-elect.

Welcome to bizarro world.

[EasyGoer89]

This whole post is absolutely absurd when we have "republicans" offering handouts for businesses to coerce them.

The State of Indiana just gave a company $7 MILLION dollars in tax breaks (I'm sure they shrink their budget to offset that) to save 1,000 jobs.

Stunning victory for Republicanism and the President-elect.

Welcome to bizarro world.

They're not giving them a tax break unless you think what they were originally paying was fair.

[JustRalph]

This whole post is absolutely absurd when we have "republicans" offering handouts for businesses to coerce them.

The State of Indiana just gave a company $7 MILLION dollars in tax breaks (I'm sure they shrink their budget to offset that) to save 1,000 jobs.

Stunning victory for Republicanism and the President-elect.

Welcome to bizarro world.

It's tax relief. Republicans should always be for that.........

You could look at it that way

[HalvOnHorseracing]

It's tax relief. Republicans should always be for that.........

You could look at it that way
Only if similar tax relief is applied to all similar businesses equally.

[chadk66]

Only if similar tax relief is applied to all similar businesses equally.doesn't happen that way. this type of thing goes on in every city, county, state in the union.

[JustRalph]

Only if similar tax relief is applied to all similar businesses equally.

I'm sure any company who previously announced they were going to Mexico, could get the same deal.

Don't forget that Carrier agreed to invest 16 million back in the plant

[HalvOnHorseracing]

I'm sure any company who previously announced they were going to Mexico, could get the same deal.

Don't forget that Carrier agreed to invest 16 million back in the plant
I would only say that if Obama did the same thing as Trump, except it was a solar energy company where he was inducing a tax break and saving an equal number of jobs, and you lauded him, I'll give you the Carrier case.

[Tom]

The State of Indiana just gave a company $7 MILLION dollars in tax breaks

what does that have to with Trump?
He is not in charge of Indiana.

[zico20]

I would only say that if Obama did the same thing as Trump, except it was a solar energy company where he was inducing a tax break and saving an equal number of jobs, and you lauded him, I'll give you the Carrier case.

The difference is that the solar energy company would probably go out of business, costing the taxpayers money, where Carrier will not.

[EasyGoer89]

This whole post is absolutely absurd when we have "republicans" offering handouts for businesses to coerce them.

The State of Indiana just gave a company $7 MILLION dollars in tax breaks (I'm sure they shrink their budget to offset that) to save 1,000 jobs.

Stunning victory for Republicanism and the President-elect.

Welcome to bizarro world.

7 million to serve america, keep jobs here, start the ball rolling to making companies want to stay, good will and all that jazz....and you make a comment about bizarro world.

Meanwhile, on a tarmac near you, in the middle of the night, obozo sends hundreds of millions to an arab country, in cash. Much more than 7 million and not really a peep out of you.

Did you peep when that happened and said 'bizarro'? :eek:

[HalvOnHorseracing]

The difference is that the solar energy company would probably go out of business, costing the taxpayers money, where Carrier will not.
Yes, that's the difference. The solar company will cost the taxpayers money while Carrier will not. Let's think about that for a minute.

Here's a list of solar companies that are doing fine, so apparently they all don't go out of business.
http://www.conserve-energy-future.com/americas-best-solar-energy-companies.php

But let's stay with your hypothetical. Both companies get a tax break, because that is what Indiana did for Carrier. For the sake of argument, let's say that tax break is $7 million a year, and let's say our poor solar company goes out of business after five years while Carrier continues on until year ten. That means the taxpayers actually saved money - $35 million to be exact - when the solar company went belly up. So arithmetically, the taxpayers spent $35 million on the solar company and $70 million on Carrier. So I guess they both cost taxpayers an equal amount of money for five years, but Carrier cost another $35 million in tax breaks. I believe when a company gets a tax break and goes out of business, it does not cost taxpayers more than the one that keeps getting a tax break.

Well, thanks for playing and better luck next time.

[JustRalph]

The difference is that the solar energy company would probably go out of business, costing the taxpayers money, where Carrier will not.

Ding!!

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Ding!!
I never knew Folie a deux is contagious

[EasyGoer89]

Aren't the taxes that the 1,100 extra workers create dwarf the 7 million?

Lets add this up.

1100 workers personal taxes.

Many more products made and sold here in the usa, creating tax revenue that wouldn't otherwise have been realized

They're also modernizing the place, so that's going to create jobs and more tax income for the state of Indiana.

Im sure there are other byproducts of having these jobs stay here that create additional revenue for the government of the USA, its not just 7 million in the red.

[Fager Fan]

This whole post is absolutely absurd when we have "republicans" offering handouts for businesses to coerce them.

The State of Indiana just gave a company $7 MILLION dollars in tax breaks (I'm sure they shrink their budget to offset that) to save 1,000 jobs.

Stunning victory for Republicanism and the President-elect.

Welcome to bizarro world.

You don't get it. Republicans think that corps are overtaxed and overregulated as it is. I'd rather see fewer specific breaks instead of just across the board cuts.

Again, this wasn't a case of bad business decisions running a company into the ground (like the auto industry) and needing a bailout. That I'm against. This was a company leaving due to the decisions by our government. The breaks this company was given would hopefully be more the norm in the next year or two.

[Fager Fan]

I would only say that if Obama did the same thing as Trump, except it was a solar energy company where he was inducing a tax break and saving an equal number of jobs, and you lauded him, I'll give you the Carrier case.

Ok, have to spell out the difference to you again. That was a highly speculative (meaning likely to fail) "investment" in a start-up company that was only 4yo. Only 2 years after getting far, far, far much more money from the gov, they filed bankruptcy.

If Carrier goes bankrupt in 2 years, leaving behind zero progress in their speculative concept business, we'll give you that there are some comparisons.

[elysiantraveller]

The fact my post generated 4 different trains of thought and justification only serves my point this is simply pandering.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Aren't the taxes that the 1,100 extra workers create dwarf the 7 million?

Lets add this up.

1100 workers personal taxes.

Many more products made and sold here in the usa, creating tax revenue that wouldn't otherwise have been realized

They're also modernizing the place, so that's going to create jobs and more tax income for the state of Indiana.

Im sure there are other byproducts of having these jobs stay here that create additional revenue for the government of the USA, its not just 7 million in the red.

Same workers at the solar plant paying taxes. And the solar plant only goes out of business in your mind. Solar plant is building products right here in the USA too, and chances are the place is new enough to be modern. Since it's my example, the solar plant and it's workers are well paid and the plant stays in business.

The 1100 workers would each have to pay an additional $6,400 IN STATE TAXES a year to make up for the $7 million. Indiana has a flat income tax rate of 3.3%, meaning a worker would have to make almost $200,000 a year with no deductions to pay $6,400 in taxes. You know a lot of factory workers making that kind of money? So, to answer your question, no the taxes don't dwarf the $7 million. Chances are they don't even come close to covering it.

Oh, and as I pointed out earlier, the taxpayers are going to be on the hook for 18 months of unemployment for the 600+ workers who are still going to lose their jobs. Don't forget to add that into your calculation. Actually, I'll save you the work. At Indiana's rate of $390 a week unemployment 600 workers for 18 months would consume $18 million.

But you really missed my point. This isn't about solar vs. furnaces. I totally agree that the jobs are better in America than Mexico, but if Obama took the same exact action as Trump, and then took credit like Trump did, you'd have criticized him all over the place, especially if it was something like solar. Just strikes me that the hatred for Obama creates hypocrites out of people.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Ok, have to spell out the difference to you again. That was a highly speculative (meaning likely to fail) "investment" in a start-up company that was only 4yo. Only 2 years after getting far, far, far much more money from the gov, they filed bankruptcy.

If Carrier goes bankrupt in 2 years, leaving behind zero progress in their speculative concept business, we'll give you that there are some comparisons.
Let me spell out the difference for you as well.

DOE did not give any companies tax breaks. You're talking apples and oranges. What DOE did was a loan equivalent to venture capital, and as you know venture capital always comes with risk. Success is not anywhere close to guaranteed. I simply said that hypothetically, if it was the exact same situation with Obama instead of Trump - i.e., brokering a tax break to keep a company here - heads would have exploded if for no other reason than it was Obama.

But as long as we're talking about DOE loans to start-ups, Tesla paid off their loan nine years early. Now let me hear it in unison. Obama did a great job giving a loan to a start up that helped the company become very successful.

You can disagree, but many people believe a legitimate function of government is to promote cutting edge research and development.

[JustRalph]

Sure, solar never fails

http://usapolitics.thoughts.com/posts/list-of-failed-obama-green-energy-solar-companies-in-the-billions

[EasyGoer89]

Same workers at the solar plant paying taxes. And the solar plant only goes out of business in your mind. Solar plant is building products right here in the USA too, and chances are the place is new enough to be modern. Since it's my example, the solar plant and it's workers are well paid and the plant stays in business.

The 1100 workers would each have to pay an additional $6,400 IN STATE TAXES a year to make up for the $7 million. Indiana has a flat income tax rate of 3.3%, meaning a worker would have to make almost $200,000 a year with no deductions to pay $6,400 in taxes. You know a lot of factory workers making that kind of money? So, to answer your question, no the taxes don't dwarf the $7 million. Chances are they don't even come close to covering it.

Oh, and as I pointed out earlier, the taxpayers are going to be on the hook for 18 months of unemployment for the 600+ workers who are still going to lose their jobs. Don't forget to add that into your calculation. Actually, I'll save you the work. At Indiana's rate of $390 a week unemployment 600 workers for 18 months would consume $18 million.

But you really missed my point. This isn't about solar vs. furnaces. I totally agree that the jobs are better in America than Mexico, but if Obama took the same exact action as Trump, and then took credit like Trump did, you'd have criticized him all over the place, especially if it was something like solar. Just strikes me that the hatred for Obama creates hypocrites out of people.

Maybe if your hero Obama didn't ship a billion in cash to oil country, we would have plenty to cover the 7 mil, which is a drop in the bucket compared to the airplane load of cash.

No?

[Clocker]

my post generated 4 different trains of thought

Thought? :lol:

[Fager Fan]

The fact my post generated 4 different trains of thought and justification only serves my point this is simply pandering.

You mean 4 people noting you're how you're wrong somehow backs you up?

[Fager Fan]

Let me spell out the difference for you as well.

DOE did not give any companies tax breaks. You're talking apples and oranges. What DOE did was a loan equivalent to venture capital, and as you know venture capital always comes with risk. Success is not anywhere close to guaranteed. I simply said that hypothetically, if it was the exact same situation with Obama instead of Trump - i.e., brokering a tax break to keep a company here - heads would have exploded if for no other reason than it was Obama.

But as long as we're talking about DOE loans to start-ups, Tesla paid off their loan nine years early. Now let me hear it in unison. Obama did a great job giving a loan to a start up that helped the company become very successful.

You can disagree, but many people believe a legitimate function of government is to promote cutting edge research and development.

Let them find venture capitalists in the private market.

[elysiantraveller]

Thought? :lol:

Its sad really. The tweet thing about Taiwan was a great foreign policy blunder and he isn't even president yet too...

[Clocker]

Its sad really. The tweet thing about Taiwan was a great foreign policy blunder and he isn't even president yet too...

Tweet! :lol:

Haven't seen any tweets yet from Putin or other world leaders engaging in this high level diplomatic dialog. :rolleyes:

[Boris]

The 1100 workers would each have to pay an additional $6,400 IN STATE TAXES a year to make up for the $7 million.
It was $7 million total over 10 years, not per year. Forbes had it about $17 per worker per week.

[Tom]

The fact my post generated 4 different trains of thought and justification only serves my point this is simply pandering.

No, it only proves your point was just sour grapes.

[elysiantraveller]

No, it only proves your point was just sour grapes.

There is nothing sour about it...

If I owned a manufacturing business I would most certainly be looking to go overseas... Worst case I'll work out some favorable tax scenario for myself.

[classhandicapper]

It was $7 million total over 10 years, not per year. Forbes had it about $17 per worker per week.

Does that math include all the savings on unemployment, medicaid, welfare, food stamps etc... that the government will not have to pay to the unemployed workers? It should.

Giving away these tax breaks is not ideal, but QUITE OBVIOUSLY neither are trade deals that gut the American middle class and enrich corporations.

[delayjf]

The free market DOES NOT work for international trade when there are vast differences in countries. That's the whole point.
I'm inclined to agree with you.

Actually, I'll save you the work. At Indiana's rate of $390 a week unemployment 600 workers for 18 months would consume $18 million.

Fair enough, but doesn't Indiana now save about 31 million by not having to pay unemployment for the 1100 employees who's jobs were saved? By my math to cover the cost of the 700,000 a year tax break, the 1100 employees would have to pay 63 dollars in state tax a year.

When I think of crony capitalism, I think of some thing along the line of the Clinton - Laurent University scandal.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Fair enough, but doesn't Indiana now save about 31 million by not having to pay unemployment for the 1100 employees who's jobs were saved? By my math to cover the cost of the 700,000 a year tax break, the 1100 employees would have to pay 63 dollars in state tax a year.

Every dark cloud has a silver lining I suppose.

[PaceAdvantage]

And yet, you were rabidly against the auto bailout "interference" that saved 1.5 MILLION US jobs. Huh! :blush:

http://www.reuters.com/article/autos-bailout-study-idUSL1N0JO0XU20131209We're borrowing a page from the massive Democrat Hypocrisy Playbook...you should know it well.

[Tom]

Those jobs would not have gone away.
The vacuum would have been filed by other companies.
The auto industry was going nowhere.

[Clocker]

GOP House Leader say he will not support punitive tariffs.

House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy on Monday refused to endorse Donald Trump’s proposal to slap tariffs on American companies that move jobs overseas — signaling that the President-elect could have trouble getting a protectionist trade agenda through Congress.

The California Republican, in a pen and pad meeting with reporters, tried to deflect multiple questions about whether Congress would pass a bill making Trump’s tariff proposal law. Such protectionist ideas are antithetical to traditional Republican values of free enterprise and competition. And while McCarthy refrained from criticizing Trump’s idea explicitly, it was clear it's not an idea he's endorsing.



http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/trump-tariff-kevin-mccarthy-232196

[Ocala Mike]

[QUOTE=Clocker]GOP House Leader say he will not support punitive tariffs.



{/QUOTE]

Best chance we have is for many of his worst ideas to be blocked by his own party; it's a cinch that the Dems are impotent.

[fast4522]

Its sad really. The tweet thing about Taiwan was a great foreign policy blunder and he isn't even president yet too...

Now that is pure bullshit, most agree Trump has all the leverage. Get over it because it was well planned in advance.

[EasyGoer89]

GOP House Leader say he will not support punitive tariffs.



http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/trump-tariff-kevin-mccarthy-232196

Politico = fake news

[Tom]

[QUOTE=Clocker]GOP House Leader say he will not support punitive tariffs.



{/QUOTE]

Best chance we have is for many of his worst ideas to be blocked by his own party; it's a cinch that the Dems are impotent.

Best change to go against the will of the people who elected him?
Maybe "we" is not the word "you" should be using.

[EasyGoer89]

This whole post is absolutely absurd when we have "republicans" offering handouts for businesses to coerce them.

The State of Indiana just gave a company $7 MILLION dollars in tax breaks (I'm sure they shrink their budget to offset that) to save 1,000 jobs.

Stunning victory for Republicanism and the President-elect.

Welcome to bizarro world.

Trump cancels Boeing 4 bill plane order. Prob will renegotiate a lower price, me things he will save more than 7 mil of taxpayer cash. What say you?

[Clocker]

Trump cancels Boeing 4 bill plane order. Prob will renegotiate a lower price, me things he will save more than 7 mil of taxpayer cash. What say you?

A private citizen canceled a government contract? :confused:

[Tom]

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/trump-cancel-boeing-order-for-new-air-force-one-jets-over-costs/

[Clocker]

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/trump-cancel-boeing-order-for-new-air-force-one-jets-over-costs/

Costs for the two Boeing 747s are “totally out of control,” Trump told reporters in the lobby of his New York skyscraper.

How could he possibly know that? More Trump being Trump. :p

[Tom]

Just announced major investment by a Japanese bank - $50 billion +jobs.

[JustRalph]

Just announced major investment by a Japanese bank - $50 billion +jobs.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2016/12/06/trump-softbank-invest-50b-us-create-50000-jobs/95050926/

[EasyGoer89]

A private citizen canceled a government contract? :confused:

Maybe he cancelled it in spirit and will cancel it formally on Jan 20.

[fast4522]

Maybe he cancelled it in spirit and will cancel it formally on Jan 20.

Trump knows full well what we as a people pay three times the price for that we should not. It is not that the technology continues to evolve, he is a chief executive who does not believe in overpaying so some hacks can walk around the beltway in their $400 shoes. Pissing off people just becomes part of the job being under budget and on time, expect to see many instances our 45th President will try to get more bang for the buck for the taxpayer. Right here at Pace Advantage expect the left to squeal like critters when they don't like it.

[EasyGoer89]

Trump knows full well what we as a people pay three times the price for that we should not. It is not that the technology continues to evolve, he is a chief executive who does not believe in overpaying so some hacks can walk around the beltway in their $400 shoes. Pissing off people just becomes part of the job being under budget and on time, expect to see many instances our 45th President will try to get more bang for the buck for the taxpayer. Right here at Pace Advantage expect the left to squeal like critters when they don't like it.
Exactly. You'll hear them squeal about a 7 million 'tax break' to carrier but when trump saves probably tens of millions by renegotiating an airplane deal, you hear crickets.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Carrier CEO says automation in Indiana will result in loss of jobs.

First, Hayes was asked what's so good about Mexico. Quite a lot, it turns out. From the transcript (emphasis added):

JIM CRAMER: What's good about Mexico? What's good about going there? And obviously what's good about staying here?

GREG HAYES: So what's good about Mexico? We have a very talented workforce in Mexico. Wages are obviously significantly lower. About 80% lower on average. But absenteeism runs about 1%. Turnover runs about 2%. Very, very dedicated workforce.

JIM CRAMER: Versus America?

GREG HAYES: Much higher.

JIM CRAMER: Much higher.

GREG HAYES: Much higher. And I think that's just part of these — the jobs, again, are not jobs on assembly line that people really find all that attractive over the long term. Now I've got some very long service employees who do a wonderful job for us. And we like the fact that they're dedicated to UTC, but I would tell you the key here, Jim, is not to be trained for the job today. Our focus is how do you train people for the jobs of tomorrow?

GREG HAYES: So, there was a cost as we thought about keeping the Indiana plant open. At the same time, and I'll tell you this because you and I, we know each other, but I was born at night but not last night. I also know that about 10% of our revenue comes from the US government. And I know that a better regulatory environment, a lower tax rate can eventually help UTC of the long run.


But here's the kicker
The result of keeping the plant in Indiana open is a $16 million investment to drive down the cost of production, so as to reduce the cost gap with operating in Mexico.

What does that mean? Automation. What does that mean? Fewer jobs, Hayes acknowledged.

From the transcript:

GREG HAYES: Right. Well, and again, if you think about what we talked about last week, we're going to make a $16 million investment in that factory in Indianapolis to automate to drive the cost down so that we can continue to be competitive. Now is it as cheap as moving to Mexico with lower cost of labor? No. But we will make that plant competitive just because we'll make the capital investments there.

JIM CRAMER: Right.

GREG HAYES: But what that ultimately means is there will be fewer jobs.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Still better to give those jobs to American machines!

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Still better to give those jobs to American machines!
It's really the crux of the issue of manufacturing jobs. Wage differentials, when physical workers are called for, are not just a little less, they are substantially less. And ultimately too many of those jobs are easy to replace with automation.

Even if Trump's heart is in the right place, the world is ultimately going to march in predictable directions toward moving jobs to places where the labor force is cheaper, or toward letting machines do the work of people on an assembly line.

The Carrier CEO made the key observation. The focus should be on training people for the jobs of tomorrow. Trump scored some emotional points with his desire to keep jobs in America, but as the Carrier deal illustrated, doing it will require tax breaks and ultimately companies that can will find other ways to cut jobs by automating.

Perhaps the education/training platform wasn't such a bad strategy after all.

[reckless]

Since Mexico is so ideal a place to do business...maybe utx should leave the USA entirely for mexico. Look at all the money they could save since they won't need to do manufacture 7 billion dollars worth of business with the gov., especially since the US worker takes too much time off... slackers each one of them.

[elysiantraveller]

Perhaps the education/training platform wasn't such a bad strategy after all.

Nah...

I'm going to try my luck in textiles. Anyone here care to invest? :cool:

[Clocker]

Nah...

I'm going to try my luck in textiles. Anyone here care to invest? :cool:

Bad idea if Trump gets his way. I read an article recently that said that 85% of the denim made in the US is exported (duty free) into Mexico. There it is made into jeans and such, and most of that exported (duty free) to the US.

Getting rid of NAFTA could end that process and kill what is left of the textile industry in this country. And raise the price of jeans to American consumers.

[EasyGoer89]

Bad idea if Trump gets his way. I read an article recently that said that 85% of the denim made in the US is exported (duty free) into Mexico. There it is made into jeans and such, and most of that exported (duty free) to the US.

Getting rid of NAFTA could end that process and kill what is left of the textile industry in this country. And raise the price of jeans to American consumers.

DJT has talked about 'renegotiating' NAFTA as his first option, scrapping it altogether is probably not going to happen, Trump just wants a 'better deal' for the USA, so that will be his first goal.

[fast4522]

Bad idea if Trump gets his way. I read an article recently that said that 85% of the denim made in the US is exported (duty free) into Mexico. There it is made into jeans and such, and most of that exported (duty free) to the US.

Getting rid of NAFTA could end that process and kill what is left of the textile industry in this country. And raise the price of jeans to American consumers.


Wrong, programmable logic units have been around for automated production since before I got out of school. Soon automation will eliminate the need to send that denim to Mexico altogether, this can not be stopped. What can be stopped is the next big thing being cloned immediately by China whose company's are not even showing a profit, how the hell they operate just to employ the masses is beyond me.

[elysiantraveller]

DJT has talked about 'renegotiating' NAFTA as his first option, scrapping it altogether is probably not going to happen, Trump just wants a 'better deal' for the USA, so that will be his first goal.

Explain to me this better deal...

I keep hearing about all of these great deals. Very little explained. Like real hard facts about what we will do with NAFTA to negotiate a better deal. Ready....go!

[EasyGoer89]

Explain to me this better deal...

I keep hearing about all of these great deals. Very little explained. Like real hard facts about what we will do with NAFTA to negotiate a better deal. Ready....go!

Trump plays cards close to vest with many things, this is one of them, he's not going to explain to YOU what he's seeking or what he's willing to give up in the give and take at renegotiations, its called trust.

TRUST
R:ThmbUp:
U
M
P

[elysiantraveller]

Trump plays cards close to vest with many things, this is one of them, he's not going to explain to YOU what he's seeking or what he's willing to give up in the give and take at renegotiations, its called trust.

TRUST
R:ThmbUp:
U
M
P

More copout...

Fine I'll ask you. Make NAFTA better. Ready... go!

[Parkview_Pirate]

I see Carrier being a bit of a Pandora's box for Trump. Now every company which can offshore 10 or more jobs will be looking for a tax break, or some other method of extortion to keep the jobs in the States.

I have no trouble with Trump trying to renegotiate trade deals or change laws/tariffs affecting all products, or at least a large number or type of product. Better yet, I'd rather see him concentrate on REPEALING laws and regulations, as history clearly indicates many government laws adhere to the "law of unintended consequences", (i.e., the ACA making health care unaffordable for many).

He can't be dicking around with little deals like this if he's really going to turn the economy around, and try to get the majority of the nearly 100 million working-age Americans back in the work force.

[EasyGoer89]

More copout...

Fine I'll ask you. Make NAFTA better. Ready... go!

Why are you asking me to make NAFTA better, i don't know the first thing about nafta.

[elysiantraveller]

Why are you asking me to make NAFTA better, i don't know the first thing about nafta.

So let me get this straight... you support the gutting of a major free trade deal that you admittedly don't know the first thing about because... :confused: Way to not play into the low information Trump supporter argument. The man really is a great salesman. Here let me help you out:

You could impose a export tax on all USDA subsidized agriculture products sold to Mexico. It's not like American farmers aren't going to find another market for their stuff and they're already on the government dole so to hell with them. This would allow Mexican farmers who previously couldn't compete get back into farming and create more jobs there. At the same time allow the Mexican government to impose a Capital Investment tax on American corporations seeking to set up shop there. If they want cheap labor fine... they can pay an upfront premium for it.

^^^ I support absolutely none of the above but at least I know enough about the issue I can argue your side.

Trump could easily say this stuff but you guys have him built up into some weird behind closed doors secret "deal-maker"... it's actually hilarious and kinda sad.

[reckless]

Why are you asking me to make NAFTA better -- Easy Goer89 said to elysiantraveler -- i don't know the first thing about nafta.

This is all you need to know...

Some of the effects of NAFTA that are highlighted in the report include,

$181 billion U.S. trade deficit with NAFTA partners Mexico and Canada,
one million net U.S. jobs lost because of NAFTA,
a doubling of immigration from Mexico,
larger agricultural trade deficits with Mexico and Canada,
and more than $360 million paid to corporations after “investor-state” tribunal attacks on, and rollbacks of, domestic public interest policies.

And here's the link for those interested.

http://www.alternet.org/nafta-20-1-million-us-jobs-lost-record-income-inequality

Senator Barry Hussein Soetoro was against NAFTA before he was for NAFTA, as you can also see in the link.

[classhandicapper]

This is all you need to know...



And here's the link for those interested.

http://www.alternet.org/nafta-20-1-million-us-jobs-lost-record-income-inequality

Senator Barry Hussein Soetoro was against NAFTA before he was for NAFTA, as you can also see in the link.


Free trade is a THEORETICAL argument.

Trillions of dollars of US assets in the hands of foreigners and the gutting of our middle class are the ACTUAL results of it.

What good is it to be theoretically correct over a 50-100 period when you are transferring trillions of dollars of wealth and jobs overseas NOW so a handful of corporations can make more money and the people that haven't lost their jobs YET can get cheaper goods at Walmart?

It's nonsensical and this is coming from someone who is generally further to right than anyone else on the forum when it comes to economics.

It's not a win win situation.

A few US corporations won, the US lost, the US middle class lost, and 3rd world labor and foreign countries won.

[delayjf]

Speaking of theoretical,
As I have been looking into the subject of free trade and moving jobs overseas, one benefit to moving the manufacturing jobs over seas was that the company could then take the money they save from the cost of labor and reinvest back into the company, creating jobs here in the US in other company divisions, like R&D, or marketing. Sounds great, but is that really what companies doing?

GREG HAYES: So what's good about Mexico? We have a very talented workforce in Mexico. Wages are obviously significantly lower. About 80% lower on average. But absenteeism runs about 1%. Turnover runs about 2%. Very, very dedicated workforce.

I wonder if they could find a CEO in Mexico that would run the company for 80% less than they pay Hayes.

[Clocker]

Free trade is a THEORETICAL argument.

Trillions of dollars of US assets in the hands of foreigners and the gutting of our middle class are the ACTUAL results of it.



You mean like the $50 billion Japanese investment in US telecom Trump just proudly announced? Does The Donald not realize that the deal adds $50 billion to our trade deficit?

[JustRalph]

You mean like the $50 billion Japanese investment in US telecom Trump just proudly announced? Does The Donald not realize that the deal adds $50 billion to our trade deficit?

Jumping the gun? We don't even know what they will invest in yet?

I suspect they will buy into another telecom or merge with one

[reckless]

Free trade is a THEORETICAL argument.

Trillions of dollars of US assets in the hands of foreigners and the gutting of our middle class are the ACTUAL results of it.

What good is it to be theoretically correct over a 50-100 period when you are transferring trillions of dollars of wealth and jobs overseas NOW so a handful of corporations can make more money and the people that haven't lost their jobs YET can get cheaper goods at Walmart?

It's nonsensical and this is coming from someone who is generally further to right than anyone else on the forum when it comes to economics.

It's not a win win situation.

A few US corporations won, the US lost, the US middle class lost, and 3rd world labor and foreign countries won.

I have been against NAFTA, the TPP, the US Chamber of Commerce, the globalists that run the Fortune 500 companies and the gonivs that run our banks and financial institutions for decades, long before I ever heard of PA.

You could do a search on my prior posts going back 3-4 years and I have been consistently saying the same thing .... look you don't need to waste your time in Search Hell, I am telling you the truth, my stand has been spot on for years about 'free trade'.

The link I provided for EasyGoer and everyone else was to remind him hat NAFTA was a failure and the major reason for the destruction of the middle and working class in this country. That is why I was a supporter of Trump and felt that he was a cinch to win last month.

Immigration, Jobs and the Economy and National Security were the three reasons Trump won. They could all be linked to globalism, corrupt and compromised GOP RINOs, and anti-America Democrats who wanted open borders, stupid and unskilled labor, and cheap products.

I was, in fact, the only one on here that said from jump street that these were the core issues that drove this election. Most on you guys on here pooh-poohed me, ignored me, whatever. The media made this election an election on personalities and lies and not the core issues at hand. And most on here followed the same and incorrect meme, like good drones. They were wrong, too, as the media often is.

Why would you think that I felt differently, especially with the link and quote I provided?

[Clocker]

Jumping the gun? We don't even know what they will invest in yet?

I suspect they will buy into another telecom or merge with one

All the same thing as far as balance of trade accounts are concerned. It is foreign investment in this country, which some people think is bad for us.

This shows Trump's lack of understanding of the issue. He correctly thinks that the investment is good, but he still rails against the trade deficit, which this deal increases.

[Tom]

Well, we better these people to take those jobs and hit the road, by cracky!
Who do they thing they are dumping money here and creting jobs????

[PaceAdvantage]

Explain to me this better deal...

I keep hearing about all of these great deals. Very little explained. Like real hard facts about what we will do with NAFTA to negotiate a better deal. Ready....go!You keep hearing lots of things but fail to understand most. That's probably why your Trump predictions have sucked so hard this year.

[elysiantraveller]

This is all you need to know...



And here's the link for those interested.

http://www.alternet.org/nafta-20-1-million-us-jobs-lost-record-income-inequality

Senator Barry Hussein Soetoro was against NAFTA before he was for NAFTA, as you can also see in the link.

Please know more... this isn't accurate. Right. Or indicative.

[elysiantraveller]

You keep hearing lots of things but fail to understand most. That's probably why your Trump predictions have sucked so hard this year.

By all means take your turn at explaining to me what you would do with NAFTA and why... I literally just made an argument for you guys. Its not that hard if you know anything about what you are talking about.

This is getting old. No one here can actually answer a question but instead defers to the great leader to sort it out.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm not a details kind of guy... :lol:

Go with your gut, I say...

[classhandicapper]

Here's an article on free trade and trade deficits by Warren Buffett.

http://fortune.com/2016/04/29/warren-buffett-foreign-trade/

[classhandicapper]

You mean like the $50 billion Japanese investment in US telecom Trump just proudly announced? Does The Donald not realize that the deal adds $50 billion to our trade deficit?

I'd way rather that the US was actually winning the trade wars and US companies were building factories and making business investments here. But I'd rather the Chinese, Japanese, etc.. invest their US dollars in building factories and creating jobs in the US (some of which may actually produce and create exports) than just buying our bonds or investing at home.

IMO, there are nothing wrong with what Trump is doing unless you go by the book. But that book has been killing us for a couple of decades now.

We need to encourage investment in the US.

[Clocker]

Here's an article on free trade and trade deficits by Warren Buffett.

http://fortune.com/2016/04/29/warren-buffett-foreign-trade/

That's not an article, it's a fairy tale. And they all lived happily ever after.

First, it ignores the benefits of trade, such as lower consumer prices for US citizens and foreign investment creating jobs and paying taxes in this country. What is so bad about foreign investment? How many Japanese or German auto makers have plants here? Are they a benefit to our economy? What are they going to do, pack them up and take them home?

Next, it ignores the reality of the government regulation here that drives companies off-shore. Maybe better to fix that than to try to regulate the outcome with yet more government rules and regulations. And it assumes that the government knows better than the market how things "ought to be", and that an absolute equality in exports and imports is the optimal equilibrium point, to be maintained at all cost. How is government regulation of imports and exports any different than government wage and price controls, which have never worked? Buffett's disclaimer about his macroeconomic expertise was quite appropriate.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Taking the iPhone as an example, you can see where the components come from. They are shipped to China for assembly. Below shows where the parts come from, how much they cost and which company is making the money. Interestingly, you can see that China actually only gets $6.50 to do the assembly. So Apple brings the phones over, and it looks like the "trade deficit" with China would be $178.96 times the number of phones imported, or a couple of billion dollars. Remember though, that few billion isn't going to China but Apple. Apple then turns around and sells the phone to Sprint, Verizon, etc. for $500. So the question is, how much does China really benefit from the $500 iPhone? Most of the money is going to companies in the United States.

Toshiba (Japan)
Flash Memory $24
Display Module $19.25
Touch Screen $16.00

Samsung (Korea)
Application Processor $14.46
SDRAM-Mobile DDR $8.50

Infineon (Germany)
Baseband $13.00
Camera Module $9.55
RF Transceiver $2.80
GPS Receiver $2.25
Power IC RF Function $1.25

Broadcom (USA)
Bluetooth/FM/WLAN $5.95

Numonyx (USA)
Memory MCP $3.65

Murata (Japan)
FEM $1.35

Dialog Semiconductor (Germany)
Power IC Application Processor Function $1.30

Cirrus Logic (USA)
Audio Codec $1.15

Rest of Bill of Materials $48.00
Total Bill of Materials $172.46
Manufacturing costs $6.50
Grand Total $178.96

If you use the Carrier example, furnaces or air conditioners coming from Mexico will had to the trade deficit with Mexico, but in fact the money is still going to Carrier, an American corporation.

Companies are moving manufacturing operations to other countries for one obvious reason. Profit maximization.

So the real issue comes down to two things and one of them isn't lowering the trade deficit. One is figuring out schemes where companies would be able to keep jobs in America and still make the maximized profit amount. Good luck with that. The second is keeping companies headquartered in America so that they pay their fair share instead of stuffing profits overseas. And ultimately that may be the best you can do.

Take a look at the maquiladora companies in Mexico. Many of them have familiar names to Americans. The way NAFTA works is that a country can send parts and materials to a maquiladora factory where it is assembled into a finished product and sent back to the country that sent the parts and materials. Again, Mexico may get the jobs, but most of the profits AND a bunch of retail jobs go to US corporations and workers. Here are just a few of the maquiladora companies.

3 Day Blinds
Acer Peripherals
Bali Company, Inc.
Bayer Corp./Medsep
Canon Business Machines
Casio Manufacturing
Fisher Price
Foster Grant Corporation
General Electric Company
JVC
Hasbro
Hewlett Packard
Hitachi Home Electronics
Maxell Corporation
Mercedes Benz
Pioneer Speakers
Samsonite Corporation
Tiffany
Toshiba
Xerox
Zenith

[delayjf]

So in a nut shell the winners are the corporations and its share holders and the loser is the American worker. Am I missing something?

[Fager Fan]

All the same thing as far as balance of trade accounts are concerned. It is foreign investment in this country, which some people think is bad for us.

This shows Trump's lack of understanding of the issue. He correctly thinks that the investment is good, but he still rails against the trade deficit, which this deal increases.

I suppose I'm stupid, but what does an investment into a company here have to do with the trade deficit?

[HalvOnHorseracing]

So in a nut shell the winners are the corporations and its share holders and the loser is the American worker. Am I missing something?
Nope. You've got it.

Stretch the thinking one step further and you realize the people most interested in trade deals like NAFTA are those corporations and their shareholders.

[classhandicapper]

That's not an article, it's a fairy tale. And they all lived happily ever after.

First, it ignores the benefits of trade, such as lower consumer prices for US citizens and foreign investment creating jobs and paying taxes in this country. What is so bad about foreign investment? How many Japanese or German auto makers have plants here? Are they a benefit to our economy? What are they going to do, pack them up and take them home?

Next, it ignores the reality of the government regulation here that drives companies off-shore. Maybe better to fix that than to try to regulate the outcome with yet more government rules and regulations. And it assumes that the government knows better than the market how things "ought to be", and that an absolute equality in exports and imports is the optimal equilibrium point, to be maintained at all cost. How is government regulation of imports and exports any different than government wage and price controls, which have never worked? Buffett's disclaimer about his macroeconomic expertise was quite appropriate.


I am the one that just argued in favor of the 50 billion dollar investment in the US that Trump helped negotiate being a good thing. You said it would add to our trade deficit.

On a related note, I am saying that trade deficits are bad and I used the Buffett article to explain why because he laid it perfectly for the lay person. It means you are consuming more than you are producing and the other guy is getting richer at your expense.

We have these trade deficits for a lot of reasons, including wage differentials, different regulations, currency manipulations, bad deals, etc...

But the bottom line of free trade has been that the US lost tons of jobs, foreigners accumulated trillions of dollars of wealth from the US via the trade deficits, and the US got better prices at Walmart. They are getting richer and we are consuming. That's a bad deal.

Now let's see how Trump is going to try to fix it because what we have been doing for the last couple of decades has been a disaster for the middle class and a losing proposition for the US on an overall basis.

[delayjf]

On a related note, I am saying that trade deficits are bad

Are trade deficits bad when a major portion of that deficit consist of foreign investments into the US?

[delayjf]

I suppose I'm stupid, but what does an investment into a company here have to do with the trade deficit?

On this subject, I don' guess, I know I'm ignorant. But I can answer your question, as I've recently learned that foreign investments in the US are considered a part of the trade deficit.

http://www.aei.org/publication/worried-about-trade-deficits-dont-they-are-job-generating-foreign-investment-surpluses-for-a-better-america/

[classhandicapper]

Are trade deficits bad when a major portion of that deficit consist of foreign investments into the US?

I look at it like this.

When you have a trade deficit, US dollars pile up in the hands of whichever country you have a deficit with. They have to do something with those US dollars. Typically they invest in US bonds to remain liquid, but they can also invest in real estate, buy stocks, buy our businesses outright, or invest in factories and business in the US that will help create jobs.

My belief is that the country with the surplus is slowly getting richer at the expense of the country with the deficit (the US) because they are buying assets that grow in value and we are getting consumer goods (electronics, cars, clothes, etc..) that slowly depreciate and get thrown away. That's what Warren Buffett was talking about.

Generally though, investment in the US is good.

Ideally, what I'd rather see is the US being so competitive there are plenty of good jobs in the US, we accumulate trade surpluses, and we run around the world buying foreign assets.

[Clocker]

N. Gregory Mankiw, the Robert M. Beren Professor of Economics at Harvard University, observed: “Economists are famous for disagreeing with one another … But economists reach near unanimity on some topics, including international trade.”

Earlier this month, a panel of 51 leading economists of differing ideological views were asked to respond to this statement: “Adding new or higher import duties on products such as air conditioners, cars, and cookies—to encourage producers to make them in the U.S.—would be a good idea.”

Of those economists, 100 percent said they disagreed with the statement. Economists understand that trade provides a great benefit to Americans.

Trade means lower prices for products ranging from T-shirts to televisions, increasing families’ disposable incomes. Trade also results in the creation of new, better jobs for U.S. workers. This results in a boost in overall well-being and quality of life.



Trump's own people have acknowledged that his tariff proposals would add 10-15% to the basic cost of living for US consumers.

http://dailysignal.com/2016/12/07/protectionism-or-trade-freedom-what-do-the-experts-say/ (http://dailysignal.com/2016/12/07/protectionism-or-trade-freedom-what-do-the-experts-say/)

[classhandicapper]

Economists understand that trade provides a great benefit to Americans.

Here's the problem with that statement.

If 90% of the benefit is accruing to a handful of corporations and most of the downside is accruing to US workers, even if you have a net benefit, you can have a bad situation (and I'm not sure there has been a net benefit).

It's guys like me that made out like a bandit.

For 25 years I had a good white collar job, I invested some of my saving in large multinational companies in the stock marker, and I was buying goods a lot cheaper at Walmart.

But millions of people owned no stocks and they lost WAY more in income than they gained in purchasing power from Walmart. In fact, they are the people that dropped out of the workforce and are collecting the benefits that Obama is always lying about with bogus stats on the economy.

You are hung up on tariffs.

Forget tariffs.

First people have to admit that there is a problem with free trade and then we can argue what to do about it. It took me 15-20 years to figure out what was happening compared to what economists thought would happen even though it was screaming in my face the entire time.

[Clocker]

If 90% of the benefit is accruing to a handful of corporations and most of the downside is accruing to US workers, even if you have a net benefit, you can have a bad situation (and I'm not sure there has been a net benefit).




The benefit of trade is to consumers who get lower prices and to workers who get new jobs created by foreign investment.

The benefit of protective tariffs goes to protected companies and their workers, while the cost is borne by consumers in the form of higher prices.

[classhandicapper]

The benefit of trade is to consumers who get lower prices and to workers who get new jobs created by foreign investment.

The benefit of protective tariffs goes to protected companies and their workers, while the cost is borne by consumers in the form of higher prices.

Dude you keep saying the same thing.

Some people get the benefit of lower prices, but millions become unemployed or underemployed and lose more income than they gain by there being cheaper items at Walmart.

If I have a 60k manufacturing job, lose it because my job went to Mexico, become employed at Walmart making 30k, big deal if I can buy things there 10% cheaper. I'm screwed.

Free trade is a LIE. Some businesses and people make out like bandits (I made out like a bandit), but millions get screwed badly. The middle class has been getting gutted. Too much of the benefit accrued to too small a percentage of the people.

Forget tariffs until he actually does something like that.

[fast4522]

Trump's own people have acknowledged that his tariff proposals would add 10-15% to the basic cost of living for US consumers.

http://dailysignal.com/2016/12/07/protectionism-or-trade-freedom-what-do-the-experts-say/ (http://dailysignal.com/2016/12/07/protectionism-or-trade-freedom-what-do-the-experts-say/)

People paying 50k, 60k, and 70k for cars manufactured outside these United States will just have to suck it up, no tears for them. Anything George Soros is against, I could be for.

[porchy44]

Dude you keep saying the same thing.

Some people get the benefit of lower prices, but millions become unemployed or underemployed and lose more income than they gain by there being cheaper items at Walmart.

If I have a 60k manufacturing job, lose it because my job went to Mexico, become employed at Walmart making 30k, big deal if I can buy things there 10% cheaper. I'm screwed.

Free trade is a LIE. Some businesses and people make out like bandits (I made out like a bandit), but millions get screwed badly. The middle class has been getting gutted. Too much of the benefit accrued to too small a percentage of the people.

Forget tariffs until he actually does something like that.

That's the number one reason Trump got elected. There are more losers in the USA due to globalization than most people realized.

[elysiantraveller]

The benefit of trade is to consumers who get lower prices and to workers who get new jobs created by foreign investment.

The benefit of protective tariffs goes to protected companies and their workers, while the cost is borne by consumers in the form of higher prices.

Ever feel like your talking a wall on here? :lol:

There is literally been no point made against this... because there isn't one.

Cheaper goods means more disposable income.

CH would have you believe we tax imports, raise prices, so then you get less disposable income, because then you'll get better paying jobs here, and then you'll get disposable income again... hell just that sentence was exhausting...

Conservatives now favor government intervention is what CH wants you to believe.

[Clocker]

Ever feel like your talking a wall on here? :lol:

There is literally been no point made against this... because there isn't one.

Cheaper goods means more disposable income.



And more disposable income means a larger market for more sellers.

No matter what happens in trade, there are winners and losers. The proponents of targeted tariffs believe that the government knows better than the market, i.e. the populace, who the winners and losers should be. All evidence to the contrary.

Here is some reality. Unless you put a uniform tariff on all imports, you are making a decision that some imports are better for the country than other imports. Why should anyone believe that the government is better qualified to make that decision than the citizens of the country though their purchasing decisions?

To answer my own question, many people in our government, and even more in the media, believe that the common folk are too stupid to know what is good for them.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller
Ever feel like your talking a wall on here? :lol:

Whoa, boy, do I ever! :lol:

[classhandicapper]

Clocker and Elysiantraveller

First off, at no point did I ever say tariffs were a good idea. So don't argue against tariffs and attribute that to my point of view. I am arguing that the US middle class has been gutted by free trade. IMO, anyone that argues against that is not paying any attentionl.

I'm going to stop after this because it's obvious your hate for Trump and tariffs is clouding your thinking.

One last attempt.

2 Groups of 10 people (Group A and B) engage in trade with each other.

The net of all of it is that group A has accumulated much more wealth and better jobs and Group B has benefited from cheaper goods and investment from Group A.

However, if we look at Group B closer we see that 3 of the 10 people have dramatically increased their standard of living (investors, mangers of major corporations, Wall St executives etc...) as a result of this free trade and the other 7 lost standard of living because they have way worse jobs and incomes and can't afford as much as they used to even though some of the goods they need are cheaper.

Is that a good deal for group B?

The economist might say it was good for both sides. But that's because they are looking at the aggregate.

Here's the problem though.

Even when there is a net benefit to both sides, that does not mean the benefits are distributed equally to all participants or that most will benefit.

In other words, the rich got richer and the middle and lower classes got bent over. That's free trade. This is coming from a guy that benefited. Imagine if I was one of the losers.

It will eventually all work out very well decades from now when incomes and standards of living around the world are more equal, when regulations, trade deals, the currency system etc.. are equal and fair, but tell that to the millions of people that got bent over for the last 20-30 years. That why they are all pissed. They know they've been bent over to satisfy major US corporations and Wall St. kingpins that are more interested in raising their return on capital from very high to ridiculously high than they are in creating a good job for a US citizen.

The only issue now is trying to fix it.

On that, I agree that tariffs are not such a good idea. But just because tariffs are a bad idea does not mean free trade has had a good result.

[elysiantraveller]

Clocker and Elysiantraveller

Even when there is a net benefit to both sides, that does not mean the benefits are distributed equally to all participants or that most will benefit.



This has nothing to do with my dislike of Trump or Tariffs. This has to do with my dislike of the government hindering trade and attempting to exercise control over the market. I, as the consumer, know my needs and wants better than Uncle Sam.

Your lynch-pin argument is the one bolded above... my response is no s***.

There are winners and losers in the market place. The reason the middle class is being gutted in this country is due to an increasingly difficult regulatory environment and this weird obsession of some "better days past."

The only segments of our economy and industry I want the government propping up and protecting are those deemed too vital to fail in the interest of national defense... Electric Boat Works, for example, comes to mind.

[incoming]

Free trade can't work even over the long term. Basically for the same reason that a true democracy can never work. The innate behavior of greed is built into the majority of the human race. Making the rightest the doormats at least in this world. My two cents. ;)

[classhandicapper]

This has nothing to do with my dislike of Trump or Tariffs. This has to do with my dislike of the government hindering trade and attempting to exercise control over the market. I, as the consumer, know my needs and wants better than Uncle Sam.


So your policy would be I know this really sucks for 10s of millions of Americans whose standard of living has been falling while a handful US Corporations are earning obscene returns on capital by leaving the US and trying to avoid US taxes, but I'm OK with that because I don't want government interfering in markets?

You just finished saying that government regulation is a problem.

So we should fix that!

We know that some countries don't respect patent and intellectual property rules.

So we should address that by renegotiating trade agreements and having enforcement mechanisms!

We know that some countries devalue to gain an advantage.

So we need to create a sounder monetary system!

We know there are tax differentials that can impact where companies choose to do business at the margin.

So we need to offset that given we have no control over the tax rates of other countries.

We know that if we trade with some 3rd world countries with extremely low standards of living but a hard working competent workforce, US workers might get killed.

So maybe we need to go slow in those agreements until there is greater balance.

Free trade is broken. I know it. Trump knows it. The American people know it. Ross Perot knew it decades ago. So now we should be arguing about how to fix it so the benefits accrue to more people in the US and no one has an unfair advantage. That's not an anti free market or anti trade position. It an anti LOSING position.

[Clocker]

Carrier has announced that it will use the money it will get for not moving jobs to Mexico to help automate the factory. The CEO says that this will cut costs by eliminating jobs.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/12/08/news/companies/carrier-jobs-automation/index.html

[EasyGoer89]

This has nothing to do with my dislike of Trump or Tariffs. This has to do with my dislike of the government hindering trade and attempting to exercise control over the market. I, as the consumer, know my needs and wants better than Uncle Sam.

Your lynch-pin argument is the one bolded above... my response is no s***.

There are winners and losers in the market place. The reason the middle class is being gutted in this country is due to an increasingly difficult regulatory environment and this weird obsession of some "better days past."

The only segments of our economy and industry I want the government propping up and protecting are those deemed too vital to fail in the interest of national defense... Electric Boat Works, for example, comes to mind.

Trade means there's a give and take from everyone, carrier could have walked away they weren't forced to do anything they didn't want to do. Do you have any proof of your assertion?

[Clocker]

Trade means there's a give and take from everyone, carrier could have walked away they weren't forced to do anything they didn't want to do.

Carrier is a subsidiary of a much larger corporation, one that does billions of dollars of defense business with the government. The money involved in the Carrier move is chump change to them.

In exchange for only moving half the jobs to Mexico, they got $7 million which they will use to automate and eliminate more jobs, and they avoided getting on the bad side of the next president, which is probably worth more than the $7 million. But in a true free market, they would never have had to make the choice.

In the same way that voters pick Trump over Hillary, the company elected for the lesser of two evils. But they were forced to do it by the reality of politics and the reality of a market that is not really free, and appears likely to become less so.

[Tom]

There is no such thing as free market.
There will always be government interaction.
We will see much less under Trumpo than under Obama.

Standard Oil is long gone.

[Fager Fan]

All the same thing as far as balance of trade accounts are concerned. It is foreign investment in this country, which some people think is bad for us.

This shows Trump's lack of understanding of the issue. He correctly thinks that the investment is good, but he still rails against the trade deficit, which this deal increases.

So I'm still trying to understand you here. I asked what an investment here has to do with trade import or export. Someone supplied a link, but they're talking about 2 columns in a ledger, not actual trade export and import. Cash coming into the country through the purchase of an asset that stays in the US isn't an export or import.

[JustRalph]

http://www.breitbart.com/video/2016/12/07/ceo-of-us-steel-could-rehire-10000-trump-victory-bringing-environment-of-positive-optimism/

Hire back 10k workers.......

I hope he's right

[Jess Hawsen Arown]

Moving jobs out of the country is not the issue I am talking about.

Trump and Pence bullied and bribed a private company to get the outcome that they decided was the right one. A lot of people, including here, look only at the outcome and are dancing in the virtual streets of the internet. This is the same mind-set that the liberal ladies of the Supreme Court use to decide the law. If they approve of the outcome, it is constitutional.

I don't care what the outcome is, I believe that the government should not be using its power to decide winners and losers in the private sector. How many here who are cheering this decision were highly opposed to Obama bailing out Chrysler or funding green industries, all in the name of jobs?

This was good politics on Trump's part. It makes his base happy and it establishes a precedent for more of the same. It isn't always going to have an outcome as agreeable to the base.

I understand your point, but Trump was elected because he said he would keep jobs in the US. I don't know that keeping jobs in the US can compare equally to choosing winners and losers.

Governor Pence is still the governor of Indiana and as such, had the authority to do what many governors do. Governor Cuomo of New York is making deals like this all the time.

Per your concern about the government choosing winners and losers. let's compare what was done for Carrier as opposed what was done for General Motors. The billions of dollars given to GM could not be matched by any of the other companies, however what was done for Carrier can help their competition with smart marketing (e.g., "We're American and we won't be leaving just because of...")

[JustRalph]

DOW invests in Trump and Michigan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k6zzEh8cuw

Play until the end......worth it

6k6zzEh8cuw

[elysiantraveller]

Trade means there's a give and take from everyone, carrier could have walked away they weren't forced to do anything they didn't want to do. Do you have any proof of your assertion?

Carrier was going to lay off 800-1000 workers and pay cheaper ones in Mexico. They will now instead receive preferential treatment by the government at the expense of the average American tax-payer. With that those people will retain their jobs longer while Carrier seeks to automate the plant before eliminating a lot of them.

That's what has happened.

No one was forced to do anything... carrots were offered for political points to appease the sheeple. It worked.

Crony-Capitalism... I feel we've come full circle here.

[elysiantraveller]

DOW invests in Trump and Michigan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k6zzEh8cuw

Play until the end......worth it

6k6zzEh8cuw

They were already going to do that.

Good sound bite though.

[Jess Hawsen Arown]

Carrier was going to lay off 800-1000 workers and pay cheaper ones in Mexico. They will now instead receive preferential treatment by the government at the expense of the average American tax-payer. With that those people will retain their jobs longer while Carrier seeks to automate the plant before eliminating a lot of them.

That's what has happened.

No one was forced to do anything... carrots were offered for political points to appease the sheeple. It worked.

Crony-Capitalism... I feel we've come full circle here.

Yes companies will always seek ways to save money and improved technology solutions is frequently the method sought.

Re-training of workers is another goal not met by many companies. In the mean time, 1,100 Americans are kept off unemployment and welfare while small businesses in the area can continue to thrive off the business of those 1,100 families -- all good.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Seems like we're pretty close to the headline

TRUMP APPOINTS FOX TO GUARD HENHOUSE

[elysiantraveller]

Yes companies will always seek ways to save money and improved technology solutions is frequently the method sought.

Re-training of workers is another goal not met by many companies. In the mean time, 1,100 Americans are kept off unemployment and welfare while small businesses in the area can continue to thrive off the business of those 1,100 families -- all good.

And there we have it... the welfare state. :)

[Jess Hawsen Arown]

And there we have it... the welfare state. :)

I do not see in any way, shape or form that what I said equals a welfare state.

The lack of re-training is an issue that needs to be addressed. However, if we stop sending jobs overseas, it will be a lot easier for laid off workers to find other jobs.

[JustRalph]

ICBHILL