A place to start for deportations?

[JustRalph]

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/1.4-million-obama-amnesty-applicants-on-deportation-hit-list/article/2607171

Giving your name to the government........oops

[EasyGoer89]

Trump and his staff ought to offer whistleblower awards too. Taxpayers would be more than happy to pony up some cash to get rid of them.

[Tom]

If...if you like your anonymity, you...you...you can keep your anonymity.

[Tom]

BTW, can we now deport that used rag Ding Harry once and for all?
I would like to drop him off in the middle of Syria. With mohamad cartoon taped to his arse.

[Tor Ekman]

We can work down the list later, but the place to start is that anybody here illegally who is arrested for a felony or misdemeanor criminal offense gets an expedited probable cause hearing, and if the arrest is deemed to have been based on probable cause, the person is deported immediately

[MONEY]

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/1.4-million-obama-amnesty-applicants-on-deportation-hit-list/article/2607171

Giving your name to the government........oops
That news article is meant to create more unrest.

Trump said that he will build a wall and get rid of criminal illegal aliens 1st.
The congress will never allow mass deportations.
The best ways to get rid of people that are here illegally, are to stop funding sanctuary cities and to enforce E-Verify.

[Tom]

Before we deport anyone here illegally, we need to take a really close look at people here legally....democrats.

I would make some kind of weighted switch, say, we keep 10 illegals for every dem we deport.

Pathway to citizenship.

[thaskalos]

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/1.4-million-obama-amnesty-applicants-on-deportation-hit-list/article/2607171

Giving your name to the government........oops

Ralph, you were a cop before, right? What did you do when you pulled over a motorist who proved to be an illegal immigrant? Did you turn him in for deportation...and was he actually DEPORTED? The illegals get arrested, get fined...and some even get imprisoned. But then they are sent right back on the American streets...because they provide a valuable service to the American economy. Heck...The Mexicans are even being CATERED to in this country. No matter WHAT "official" phone call I make...I am told to "press 1 for English"...and "2 for Spanish". There are "currency exchanges" on every block...to cater to the illegals who need to transfer money without having bank accounts. Have you ever seen an AMERICAN walk into one of those places...except for a once-a-year licence-plate sticker? And you think that all the government needed to deport these people is their "identity" or "address"? If the government cared to...they would have had their identities and addresses ALREADY.

The illegals are here because the government WANTS them here. Drive up and down any American city street...and count how many small businesses you see closed and boarded up. The only reason that the REST of them aren't boarded up as well is because of the "illegal immigrants"...who do work that the American would/could NEVER do...even at twice the pay. And you think that TRUMP -- a BUSINESSMAN -- doesn't KNOW this? You think that Trump is the ONLY newly-elected president who was concerned with illegal immigration...but couldn't do anything about it?

Go into any restaurant in the U.S., and peek into the kitchen...and tell me who you see working there. And then ask the owner if he could afford to stay open, otherwise.

[DSB]

Ralph, you were a cop before, right? What did you do when you pulled over a motorist who proved to be an illegal immigrant? Did you turn him in for deportation...and was he actually DEPORTED? The illegals get arrested, get fined...and some even get imprisoned. But then they are sent right back on the American streets...because they provide a valuable service to the American economy. Heck...The Mexicans are even being CATERED to in this country. No matter WHAT "official" phone call I make...I am told to "press 1 for English"...and "2 for Spanish". There are "currency exchanges" on every block...to cater to the illegals who need to transfer money without having bank accounts. Have you ever seen an AMERICAN walk into one of those places...except for a once-a-year licence-plate sticker? And you think that all the government needed to deport these people is their "identity" or "address"? If the government cared to...they would have had their identities and addresses ALREADY.

The illegals are here because the government WANTS them here. Drive up and down any American city street...and count how many small businesses you see closed and boarded up. The only reason that the REST of them aren't boarded up as well is because of the "illegal immigrants"...who do work that the American would/could NEVER do...even at twice the pay. And you think that TRUMP -- a BUSINESSMAN -- doesn't KNOW this? You think that Trump is the ONLY newly-elected president who was concerned with illegal immigration...but couldn't do anything about it?

Go into any restaurant in the U.S., and peek into the kitchen...and tell me who you see working there. And then ask the owner if he could afford to stay open, otherwise.
I've heard this argument many times.

The question I have is, how did America make it through the first 200 years without illegal immigrants?

[MONEY]

Ralph, you were a cop before, right? What did you do when you pulled over a motorist who proved to be an illegal immigrant?
City and state employees in New York are not allowed to ask anyone about their immigration status.
Everybody is treated as a citizen.
Trying to get anybody deported would get you fired.

[thaskalos]

I've heard this argument many times.

The question I have is, how did America make it through the first 200 years without illegal immigrants?

Is that what you are really asking for? To take America back 200 years? You are a funny guy.

I am not just making an "argument", friend. I LIVED this argument for over 30 years. Ever since I was 16, I worked alongside these "illegal immigrants"...and saw first-hand how exploited they are...and how hard they work. And the Americans have hated them all along, because they (the illegals) are taking away the Americans' jobs. An American do a Mexican's job? Don't make me laugh. :D

The Mexican immigrants are the VICTIMS in this sad scenario. They can't feed themselves and their families in their own country...and they come here and willingly enslave themselves...and our country is eager to play along. The government looks the other way...while the business owners break the law with impunity. And we blame the poor Mexican for all of this. :rolleyes:

[thaskalos]

City and state employees in New York are not allowed to ask anyone about their immigration status.
Everybody is treated as a citizen.
Trying to get anybody deported would get you fired.

Money...you were/are a cop too, right? Do you need to ask a Mexican motorist who is driving without a licence, if he is illegal or not? As a "law officer"...shouldn't it bother you when you see these "illegals" just pay a fine...and then get back into their cars? What "law and order" do you cops think that you are PROTECTING out there?

[DSB]

Is that what you are really asking for? To take America back 200 years? You are a funny guy.

I am not just making an "argument", friend. I LIVED this argument for over 30 years. Ever since I was 16, I worked alongside these "illegal immigrants"...and saw first-hand how exploited they are...and how hard they work. And the Americans have hated them all along, because they (the illegals) are taking away the Americans' jobs. An American do a Mexican's job? Don't make me laugh. :D

The Mexican immigrants are the VICTIMS in this sad scenario. They can't feed themselves and their families in their own country...and they come here and willingly enslave themselves...and our country is eager to play along. The government looks the other way...while the business owners break the law with impunity. And we blame the poor Mexican for all of this. :rolleyes:
Please stop with the "no American will do those jobs" nonsense.

I worked on the backside of racetracks for years. At one time all grooms and hotwalkers were either white or black, and all were Americans.

Now, I'd wager there isn't a racetrack IN NORTH AMERICA that isn't loaded with illegal aliens in those positions.

Americans did those jobs for more than 100 years. And that's just one I'm familiar with...

[thaskalos]

Please stop with the "no American will do those jobs" nonsense.

I worked on the backside of racetracks for years. At one time all grooms and hotwalkers were either white or black, and all were Americans.

Now, I'd wager there isn't a racetrack IN NORTH AMERICA that isn't loaded with illegal aliens in those positions.

Americans did those jobs for more than 100 years. And that's just one I'm familiar with...

THE AMERICAN COULDN'T DO A MEXICAN'S JOB FOR TWICE THE PAY. And I have 35 years of business experience backing up this claim of mine. "At one time Americans did this, and that..." you say. Tell me...what stopped them from working this hard TODAY...the illegal immigrants? :D

[PaceAdvantage]

Tell me...what stopped them from from working this hard TODAY...the illegal immigrants? :DIf the business can offer an illegal immigrant half the pay for the same work, why in the world would they ever hire an American to do the job? The business would only ever seek out illegal immigrants. They know where to find them and the immigrant learns where to go to find someone willing to give them a job.

I take it you're chalking this all up to Americans being too entitled or too lazy to do certain jobs.

[Show Me the Wire]

THE AMERICAN COULDN'T DO A MEXICAN'S JOB FOR TWICE THE PAY. And I have 35 years of business experience backing up this claim of mine. "At one time Americans did this, and that..." you say. Tell me...what stopped them from from working this hard TODAY...the illegal immigrants? :D

What is a Mexican job? Only Mexicans are unworthy enough to perform these jobs?

[PaceAdvantage]

If the business can offer an illegal immigrant half the pay for the same work, why in the world would they ever hire an American to do the job? The business would only ever seek out illegal immigrants. They know where to find them and the immigrant learns where to go to find someone willing to give them a job.

I take it you're chalking this all up to Americans being too entitled or too lazy to do certain jobs.I will add to the above that the liberals and their entitlement policies and high minimum wage requirement have also contributed mightily to all of this...why work your ass off at some menial job as an American when you can get welfare instead and stay home playing video games?

And as a business owner, why pay these high minimum wages when you can hire an illegal at half the price?

[thaskalos]

What is a Mexican job? Only Mexicans are unworthy enough to perform them?
I didn't say a "Mexican job"...those are YOUR words. What I said was "a MEXICAN'S job"...which means, any work done by a Mexican.

For 35 years I have watched Mexicans and Americans work side-by-side in "blue-collar" labor situations. No comparison.

[Nutz and Boltz]

Very few workers today want to do an honest days' work . And employers ,instead of asking these people to do so, have lowered their standards to accommodate them. The American work ethic sucks ! That's what is wrong with America.

[DSB]

THE AMERICAN COULDN'T DO A MEXICAN'S JOB FOR TWICE THE PAY. And I have 35 years of business experience backing up this claim of mine. "At one time Americans did this, and that..." you say. Tell me...what stopped them from working this hard TODAY...the illegal immigrants? :D
First of all, stow that junk about Americans "can't work as hard as a Mexican".. that's bullshit and you ought to know it.

Second, illegals don't need to make as much as Americans. We have to pay taxes, obtain our own health insurance (including maternity), and pay for all other living expenses. We don't work AND collect benefits. We work and PAY for other's benefits. We pay to educate their kids. Their cost to society is staggering.

So just what are you saying? You've been employing illegal aliens for 35 years? Maybe you're one of the ones doing the "exploiting."

[thaskalos]

I will add to the above that the liberals and their entitlement policies and high minimum wage requirement have also contributed mightily to all of this...why work your ass off at some menial job as an American when you can get welfare instead and stay home playing video games?

And as a business owner, why pay these high minimum wages when you can hire an illegal at half the price?

The real question is...why not hold the business owners accountable for their shady employment practices? Why should even a Donald Trump be allowed to admit that he has had illegal aliens in his employ in the past...without suffering serious repercussions?

[PaceAdvantage]

The real question is...why not hold the business owners accountable for their shady employment practices? Why should even a Donald Trump be allowed to admit that he has had illegal aliens in his employ in the past...without suffering serious repercussions?I completely agree with the first premise. And I need to further amend my prior comments to include REPUBLICANS among those to blame for the current situation. It's not just the fault of liberals and Democrats. Both are to blame.

As for your second question, I'm pretty sure Trump's hiring practices were revealed and reported during the campaign. The voters knew (or should have known) exactly what they were buying....

[MONEY]

Money...you were/are a cop too, right? Do you need to ask a Mexican motorist who is driving without a licence, if he is illegal or not? As a "law officer"...shouldn't it bother you when you see these "illegals" just pay a fine...and then get back into their cars? What "law and order" do you cops think that you are PROTECTING out there?
1st, you can't tell if someone is Mexican by looking at them. Here in Texas we have blonde hair, blue eyed Mexicans.

I was a cop in New York City and we were not allowed to ask about or report the immigration status of anyone..

[thaskalos]

First of all, stow that junk about Americans "can't work as hard as a Mexican".. that's bullshit and you ought to know it.

Second, illegals don't need to make as much as Americans. We have to pay taxes, obtain our own health insurance (including maternity), and pay for all other living expenses. We don't work AND collect benefits. We work and PAY for other's benefits. We pay to educate their kids. Their cost to society is staggering.

So just what are you saying? You've been employing illegal aliens for 35 years? Maybe you're one of the ones doing the "exploiting."

The Mexicans pay taxes too. They have fake Social Security cards, and have taxes withheld from their paychecks...just like the rest of us do. The only difference is that the Mexican doesn't dare fill out a tax return so he could recoup those tax deductions, as the rest of the workers do...because the Mexican is illegal. So...he is exploited in that regard too.

[garyscpa]

I didn't say a "Mexican job"...those are YOUR words. What I said was "a MEXICAN'S job"...which means, any work done by a Mexican.

For 35 years I have watched Mexicans and Americans work side-by-side in "blue-collar" labor situations. No comparison.

Yeah, we never beat them in the Olympics either. :bang:

[JustRalph]

Ralph, you were a cop before, right? What did you do when you pulled over a motorist who proved to be an illegal immigrant? Did you turn him in for deportation...and was he actually DEPORTED? The illegals get arrested, get fined...and some even get imprisoned. But then they are sent right back on the American streets...because they provide a valuable service to the American economy. Heck...The Mexicans are even being CATERED to in this country. No matter WHAT "official" phone call I make...I am told to "press 1 for English"...and "2 for Spanish". There are "currency exchanges" on every block...to cater to the illegals who need to transfer money without having bank accounts. Have you ever seen an AMERICAN walk into one of those places...except for a once-a-year licence-plate sticker? And you think that all the government needed to deport these people is their "identity" or "address"? If the government cared to...they would have had their identities and addresses ALREADY.

The illegals are here because the government WANTS them here. Drive up and down any American city street...and count how many small businesses you see closed and boarded up. The only reason that the REST of them aren't boarded up as well is because of the "illegal immigrants"...who do work that the American would/could NEVER do...even at twice the pay. And you think that TRUMP -- a BUSINESSMAN -- doesn't KNOW this? You think that Trump is the ONLY newly-elected president who was concerned with illegal immigration...but couldn't do anything about it?

Go into any restaurant in the U.S., and peek into the kitchen...and tell me who you see working there. And then ask the owner if he could afford to stay open, otherwise.

Gus, I don't disagree with much of your post at all. But I can tell you that here in Texas, not many illegals working the kitchens of most places anymore. We are required to use E-verify and it's not full of holes like it used to be. But some do get around it. I've noticed that many that I'm sure are illegal have been in the system for so long on old documents, that they are basically golden now. Our kitchen has about 30 people who work only the kitchen. I'll say 15 are Hispanic, 10 are black and about five are white. We have 1 woman who works mostly in the kitchen. She's white.

Things have changed over the last ten years. In 2007 my wife was running a DNB in Cleveland. One morning she arrived at work to find homeland security vehicles surrounding the building and about ten employees sitting handcuffed outside. They took them away. The company paid a fine for pencil whipping the paperwork on the illegals. Luckily my wife had just taken over and her name was not on any of the paperwork for those employees.

On basic traffic tickets we did nothing about illegals. The guy who went to jail was different

When I was a police officer in California in the 80's we had so many illegals that it was left up to the jails to do paperwork and THEY NEVER DID IT. They didn't care.

In Ohio in the 90's we weren't setup for it until about 93 when illegals started showing up in big numbers. It once again fell to the jailers. But they were much more serious about it. I did see some turned over to the Feds.

When I worked for the Charlotte PD in 2009-10 I actually worked hand in hand with the jail and the homeland security/borders/immigration folks who were very serious about it. But they were much more serious about illegals charged with a felony or those who had previous felony convictions. Those guys got automatic detainers via computer and no matter what happen with their local cases they could not be released to anyone but the Feds. Every single one. After that I don't know what the hell they did with them.

[Show Me the Wire]

I didn't say a "Mexican job"...those are YOUR words. What I said was "a MEXICAN'S job"...which means, any work done by a Mexican.

For 35 years I have watched Mexicans and Americans work side-by-side in "blue-collar" labor situations. No comparison.

Not mine but yours.

THE AMERICAN COULDN'T DO A MEXICAN'S JOB FOR TWICE THE PAY.

So I asked what is a Mexican Job the American couldn't do for twice the pay. So please enlighten us about these Mexican jobs.

I know English is not your first language. Are you saying an American cannot work as hard as a Mexican, per your example above?

[Tom]

A business knowingly hiring illegals should be forfeit - 100% when they are caught. Just like a drug dealer loses his car in a bust.

[Tom]

So...he is exploited in that regard too.

We do not stop people going BACK over the border.
His choice to come here, his choice to be exploited.

There are legal paths to come here and join us legally.
We will welcome you with open arms when you come through the door, not the window.

[Tom]

Yeah, we never beat them in the Olympics either. :bang:

That is a surprise, considering all of them who can run, jump, climb, or swim are already here!

[Show Me the Wire]

The Mexicans pay taxes too. They have fake Social Security cards, and have taxes withheld from their paychecks...just like the rest of us do. The only difference is that the Mexican doesn't dare fill out a tax return so he could recoup those tax deductions, as the rest of the workers do...because the Mexican is illegal. So...he is exploited in that regard too.


Yes, a dirty secret of our government about why the federal government does not want to stem illegal immigration. The federal government benefits from collecting taxes that will never be paid out in tax refunds of SS benefits.

Conversely the state governments do not share in this windfall and the state coffers are overburdened by the benefits given to the illegals.

[thaskalos]

Not mine but yours.



So I asked what is a Mexican Job the American couldn't do for twice the pay. So please enlighten us about these Mexican jobs.

I know English is not your first language. Are you saying an American cannot work as hard as a Mexican, per your example above?

The typical American would be a LAUGHINGSTOCK if he were asked to work alongside a typical Mexican. The term "lazy Mexican" is an AMERICAN invention...without an ounce of truth attached to it. And, you don't have to believe me. Ask any grocery store or restaurant owner/manager that you might know.

I hope my English is now clear enough for you to understand.

[lamboguy]

i think that we can all agree there are a lot of problems and it makes no sense to blame one side or the other for those problems, its time to solve them.

the good thing about Trump is that he neither conservative or liberal, he is full of common sense and he is very bright as proven by the way he ran and won his presidential campaign.

he got voted in and i think its time to just hand over the steering wheel and let him do his job.

[DSB]

The Mexicans pay taxes too. They have fake Social Security cards, and have taxes withheld from their paychecks...just like the rest of us do. The only difference is that the Mexican doesn't dare fill out a tax return so he could recoup those tax deductions, as the rest of the workers do...because the Mexican is illegal. So...he is exploited in that regard too.
Yeah, and a lot of them work for cash, too.

And they pile into apartments at dangerous levels. The property taxes they contribute is miniscule compared to those of us who have worked all our lives to own our homes.

We get slaughtered on property taxes which, in the town I live in, mainly benefit them...

[chrisl]

I have worked construction all my life. When I moved to Ca from Alaska. It was a eye opening experience. I was running a concrete finishing crew of about 60+ Mexicans. They were all illegals. I had my superintendent who was a illegal, tell me that Americans are stupid. He claimed, I believe it was 7 dependents on his W-2. Had 3 kids, not married to the mother of his children. He lived in a house that had 3 families sharing it. His girlfriend received rental assistance, food stamps, electrical bill assistance, welfare, free medical for everyone. All the families in the same house received all these freebies. He stated he lives free in America and is purchasing his 2nd home in Mexico. He will retire at 50, move back to Mexico, with stacks of money. He stated, "I love America" but your government is stupid. As he laughed all the way to the bank.

[DSB]

i think that we can all agree there are a lot of problems and it makes no sense to blame one side or the other for those problems, its time to solve them.
I have a solution.

LET'S ENFORCE OUR LAWS.

E-verify, border control, deportation, etc... the stuff we have on the books already.

That's a great start...

[PaceAdvantage]

He stated, "I love America" but your government is stupid.Funny, Trump said the same thing, and it got him elected.

[thaskalos]

Yeah, and a lot of them work for cash, too.

And they pile into apartments at dangerous levels. The property taxes they contribute is miniscule compared to those of us who have worked all our lives to own our homes.

We get slaughtered on property taxes which, in the town I live in, mainly benefit them...

You are stuck in years past. The days of the "20-Mexicans-in-an-apartment" have long been over. They are now living here with their families...and they work 2 jobs to make ends meet...while the "locals" have their hand out for "government relief".

The Mexican gives more than he takes in this country...and this is more than millions of AMERICANS could say.

[Show Me the Wire]

The typical American would be a LAUGHINGSTOCK if he were asked to work alongside a typical Mexican. The term "lazy Mexican" is an AMERICAN invention...without an ounce of truth attached to it. And, you don't have to believe me. Ask any grocery store or restaurant owner/manager that you might know.

I hope my English is now clear enough for you to understand.

I understand and I don't agree. I've worked in those industries in Chicago and my relatives owned large grocery stores and my family was in the restaurant business. While in college I worked on docks loading trucks, not easy work in the extreme heat and cold weather in Chicago. I worked with Blacks, Hispanics, Orientals and the Mexicans were no more hard working than any other group. I guess my experience is different than yours. However, I admit certain individuals are harder workers than other individuals regardless of the ethnic group. If any ethnic group as a whole had more individual hard workers it was the Orientals by far.

[DSB]

You are stuck in years past. The days of the "20-Mexicans-in-an-apartment" have long been over. They are now living here with their families...and they work 2 jobs to make ends meet...while the "locals" have their hand out for "government relief".

The Mexican gives more than he takes in this country...and this is more than millions of AMERICANS could say.
Don't tell me what I know or don't know.

The town I live in is 40% white, 42% illegal immigrant.

They load up the garden apts. in town, as well as some smaller single family homes.

Oh, and most Americans have to "work 2 jobs to make ends meet"... largely because they have to supply benefits to those illegals you speak so glowingly of...

[PaceAdvantage]

If any ethnic group as a whole had more individual hard workers it was the Orientals by far.I believe the word you are looking for is Asians....

[Show Me the Wire]

You are stuck in years past. The days of the "20-Mexicans-in-an-apartment" have long been over. They are now living here with their families...and they work 2 jobs to make ends meet...while the "locals" have their hand out for "government relief".

The Mexican gives more than he takes in this country...and this is more than millions of AMERICANS could say.

It is the opposite where I now live.

[MONEY]

You are stuck in years past. The days of the "20-Mexicans-in-an-apartment" have long been over. They are now living here with their families...and they work 2 jobs to make ends meet...while the "locals" have their hand out for "government relief".

The Mexican gives more than he takes in this country...and this is more than millions of AMERICANS could say.

There are at least 20 Mexicans living in the house next door to mine. 12 cars are parked overnight every night & they have children. It's a four bedroom 2½ house.

[Show Me the Wire]

I believe the word you are looking for is Asians....


No they were Orientals, from East Asia.

[PaceAdvantage]

Just trying to help you keep PC...

[thaskalos]

Don't tell me what I know or don't know.

The town I live in is 40% white, 42% illegal immigrant.

They load up the garden apts. in town, as well as some smaller single family homes.

Oh, and most Americans have to "work 2 jobs to make ends meet"... largely because they have to supply benefits to those illegals you speak so glowingly of...

If those "government benefits" dried up...the last people to be affected by it would be the MEXICANS. The Americans, on the other hand, would take to the street in protest...as they are doing now, with Trump.

[thaskalos]

There are at least 20 Mexicans living in the house next door to mine. 12 cars are parked overnight every night & they have children. It's a four bedroom 2½ house.
Family people. :ThmbUp:

[garyscpa]

If those "government benefits" dried up...the last people to be affected by it would be the MEXICANS. The Americans, on the other hand, would take to the street in protest...as they are doing now, with Trump.

No, that would be the Democrats.

[AndyC]

The real question is...why not hold the business owners accountable for their shady employment practices? Why should even a Donald Trump be allowed to admit that he has had illegal aliens in his employ in the past...without suffering serious repercussions?

Why should business owners have to become immigration agents? E-verify or some sort of worker identification should be required for every employee.

[thaskalos]

No, that would be the Democrats.

You are right. The republicans would rather go hungry than accept a government check. :ThmbUp:

[Show Me the Wire]

If those "government benefits" dried up...the last people to be affected by it would be the MEXICANS. The Americans, on the other hand, would take to the street in protest...as they are doing now, with Trump.

My friend who works for DES would disagree and agree with you. He would disagree with the Mexican population not being effectected and agree there is a segment of American society that would be protesting in the streets.

[thaskalos]

Why should business owners have to become immigration agents?
That's what every business owner says...even as they advise their illegal workers to secure another Social Security card for themselves. :ThmbUp:

[chrisl]

When I hear the statement of Americans will not work for that wage. This is crap. Americans do not qualify for all the entitlements that a illegal person gets. At least from my knowledge. So if you work for 10 bucks a hour and have no bills, because everything is provided for you. That is spare cash. I have read that in Ca, a mother of 3 gets about 40 grand a year in entitlements. Add a boyfriend living with you who makes another 40 grand, pays no taxes. They are living a hell of a lot bettor than most hard working law abiding citizens.

[thaskalos]

My friend who works for DES would disagree and agree with you. He would disagree with the Mexican population not being effectected and agree there is a segment of American society that would be protesting in the streets.

I didn't say that the Mexicans wouldn't be affected. I said that they would be the LAST ones to be affected. I don't have "hearsay" proof of the Mexican work ethic...I lived it for many years.

[AndyC]

The Mexicans pay taxes too. They have fake Social Security cards, and have taxes withheld from their paychecks...just like the rest of us do. The only difference is that the Mexican doesn't dare fill out a tax return so he could recoup those tax deductions, as the rest of the workers do...because the Mexican is illegal. So...he is exploited in that regard too.

I find it ironic that you would call someone who lives in our country illegally "exploited".

[DSB]

I didn't say that the Mexicans wouldn't be affected. I said that they would be the LAST ones to be affected. I don't have "hearsay" proof of the Mexican work ethic...I lived it for many years.
You know what I find amazing?

If Mexican workers are so productive, how come their economy can't support them?

They need OURS.

[Show Me the Wire]

thask:

It is easy to ask question, but it is difficult to formulate an answer. I asked you this question before and I do not believe an answer had been given. I like you do not want to see any person or a family be without food, shelter, etc.

I remember how you told the story about if you saw somebody taking food from your grocery store without paying you let them have it, if you felt they needed it and did not have the money to pay you.

The question is how many people can you let come to your viable business which feeds you, your family and feeds other families because your store is open for business and take food without paying before everyone suffers due to your business no longer being viable?

[thaskalos]

I find it ironic that you would call someone who lives in our country illegally "exploited".

I didn't say "illegally exploited"; I said EXPLOITED. I know that exploitation in this country is only "illegal" in THEORY...and I am more interested in the PRACTICE of things.

The illegals are here because they are an important staple in the American economy. And Trump KNOWS it...even as he blows smoke up the American voter's ass.

[Show Me the Wire]

I didn't say that the Mexicans wouldn't be affected. I said that they would be the LAST ones to be affected. I don't have "hearsay" proof of the Mexican work ethic...I lived it for many years.

I was not clear enough. He would disagree and say they would be one of the first effected along with the aforementioned segment of Americans.

Keep in mind we are discussing illegals, not actual citizens who immigrated legally from Mexico.

And my experience about work is not valid, but only hearsay? Interesting.

[AndyC]

That's what every business owner says...even as they advise their illegal workers to secure another Social Security card for themselves. :ThmbUp:

I don't know what kind of crowd you hang around with but I have never heard of or seen any business owner that I have dealt with either professionally or personally give out that kind of advice.

[AndyC]

I didn't say "illegally exploited"; I said EXPLOITED. I know that exploitation in this country is only "illegal" in THEORY...and I am more interested in the PRACTICE of things.

The illegals are here because they are an important staple in the American economy. And Trump KNOWS it...even as he blows smoke up the American voter's ass.

Bad grammar on my part. I didn't mean to say illegally exploited, I meant to say an illegal being exploited.

Workers are an important staple in the American economy. There is, however, no requirement that these important workers be illegal immigrants.

[delayjf]

The Mexicans pay taxes too. They have fake Social Security cards, and have taxes withheld from their paychecks...just like the rest of us do. The only difference is that the Mexican doesn't dare fill out a tax return so he could recoup those tax deductions, as the rest of the workers do...because the Mexican is illegal. So...he is exploited in that regard too.

Not according to this article,
http://cnsnews.com/commentary/james-agresti/about-61-million-illegals-filed-taxes-us-many-didnt-pay-received-refunds

From the article
Obtaining an ITIN also allows illegal immigrants to claim the federal Child Tax Credit, which can provide them with a cash benefit of up to $1,000 per child per year. According to the latest IRS data, 72 percent of all tax returns filed with ITINs in 2010 claimed child tax credits to receive cash payments from the federal government.

[thaskalos]

thask:

It is easy to ask question, but it is difficult to formulate an answer. I asked you this question before and I do not believe an answer had been given. I like you do not want to see any person or a family be without food, shelter, etc.

I remember how you told the story about if you saw somebody taking food from your grocery store without paying you let them have it, if you felt they needed it and did not have the money to pay you.

The question is how many people can you let come to your viable business which feeds you, your family and feeds other families because your store is open for business and take food without paying before everyone suffers due to your business no longer being viable?

As you know, I was in the grocery business for many years...and have had more than a few friends who owned grocery stores and restaurants. I started as a worker when I was 15 years old, and I worked side-by-side with these "illegal immigrants"...who came to this country in order to feed their families...and were horribly exploited as a result. My heart went out to them...and I swore to myself that I would be a DIFFERENT "boss"...if I were ever afforded the opportunity.

I may be a democrat, but my parents were BROKE when they brought me to this country...and they slaved their lives away at very difficult jobs...without complaining even ONCE to us kids. And they never knew what "government benefits" were.

I am an IMMIGRANT...and the fact that I am "legal" is a lucky coincidence...attributed to a brother that my father had in this country. My father considered this to be the world's greatest country...and he told me many times that, if he couldn't bring us here "legally"...then he would have tried to find a way to bring us here ILLEGALLY. "You take care of your family as well as you can, even if that means putting yourself in grave danger...otherwise you are not a MAN"...he would say to me. And...tears are running down my cheeks as I type this...because he was TEN TIMES the man I am...and I lost him too soon.

All my life I've seen desperate people...who place themselves in danger just so they could come here and feed their families. They would like to come here "legally", but they CAN'T...so, they come here ILLEGALLY, just as my dad would have, if he were in their shoes. I look at them...and I remember my own DAD. And my heart goes out to them...and I help them as much as I can. They have kids too...and they love their kids just as much as my dad loved me.

[Show Me the Wire]

As you know, I was in the grocery business for many years...and have had more than a few friends who owned grocery stores and restaurants. I started as a worker when I was 15 years old, and I worked side-by-side with these "illegal immigrants"...who came to this country in order to feed their families...and were horribly exploited as a result. My heart went out to them...and I swore to myself that I would be a DIFFERENT "boss"...if I were ever afforded the opportunity.

I may be a democrat, but my parents were BROKE when they brought me to this country...and they slaved their lives away at very difficult jobs...without complaining even ONCE to us kids. And they never knew what "government benefits" were.

I am an IMMIGRANT...and the fact that I am "legal" is a lucky coincidence...attributed to a brother that my father had in this country. My father considered this to be the world's greatest country...and he told me many times that, if he couldn't bring us here "legally"...then he would have tried to find a way to bring us here ILLEGALLY. "You take care of your family as well as you can, even if that means putting yourself in grave danger...otherwise you are not a MAN"...he would say to me. And...tears are running down my cheeks as I type this...because he was TEN TIMES the man I am...and I lost him too soon.

All my life I've seen desperate people...who place themselves in danger just so they could come here and feed their families. They would like to come here "legally", but they CAN'T...so, they come here ILLEGALLY, just as my dad would have, if he were in their shoes. I look at them...and I remember my own DAD. And my heart goes out to them...and I help them as much as I can. They have kids too...and they love their kids just as much as my dad loved me.

I do not care about your political party affiliation. I lived in Chicago for the majority of my life and for a long time I was affiliated with the Democrat party, my father was a die hard Dem and one of my uncles was a die hard Rep. Interesting conversations.

My family immigrated here too, a few generations before you. However, my neighborhood had many immigrants, which many of them were of the non lawful entry. especially the immigrants from the Orient. i am very familiar with hard working people.

FYI I started in the work force at 14 years old and not with a paper route. I did manual labor in grocery stores, factories, worked on loading docks, worked in hot restaurant Kitchens, bus tables, etc. I was lucky my father had to quit school and support his family, his mother, and three siblings at the age of 12, due to his father's death at a young age. I understand hardship.

I have compassion too. However, you did not answer my question about how much pressure your viable business, which provides necessary food for many people, can withstand from illegal patrons taking food before before your store is no longer viable and everyone goes hungry.

Like I said asking questions is very easy, but answers are not.

[Redboard]

I've heard this argument many times.

The question I have is, how did America make it through the first 200 years without illegal immigrants?

You probably realize by now that your statement is not really true. The U.S. has always had this “problem.” One of the reasons we revolted from Britain was because they felt that they could send anybody they wanted to here. In the 20th century it was addressed with The Immigration Act of 1924 which limited the number of visas available each year to new immigrants to 350,000. It had a very politically-incorrect method of deciding who was allowed in based upon a percentage of the total number of people of each nationality that were currently in the United States. Asians were excluded. In 1952, they updated this act with the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952, which relaxed quotas and Asian exclusion and introduced a system of preferences based on skill sets and family reunification. From 1924 to 1952 the door was pretty much shut. Of course there were always illegals. Eisenhower deported more than one million Mexicans during his two terms.

Around ten years ago the Congress tried to pass a law which made hiring a non-citizen a felony. It missed by one vote. I haven’t heard a peep about bringing it back and don’t believe I ever will.

[DSB]

As you know, I was in the grocery business for many years...and have had more than a few friends who owned grocery stores and restaurants. I started as a worker when I was 15 years old, and I worked side-by-side with these "illegal immigrants"...who came to this country in order to feed their families...and were horribly exploited as a result. My heart went out to them...and I swore to myself that I would be a DIFFERENT "boss"...if I were ever afforded the opportunity.

I may be a democrat, but my parents were BROKE when they brought me to this country...and they slaved their lives away at very difficult jobs...without complaining even ONCE to us kids. And they never knew what "government benefits" were.

I am an IMMIGRANT...and the fact that I am "legal" is a lucky coincidence...attributed to a brother that my father had in this country. My father considered this to be the world's greatest country...and he told me many times that, if he couldn't bring us here "legally"...then he would have tried to find a way to bring us here ILLEGALLY. "You take care of your family as well as you can, even if that means putting yourself in grave danger...otherwise you are not a MAN"...he would say to me. And...tears are running down my cheeks as I type this...because he was TEN TIMES the man I am...and I lost him too soon.

All my life I've seen desperate people...who place themselves in danger just so they could come here and feed their families. They would like to come here "legally", but they CAN'T...so, they come here ILLEGALLY, just as my dad would have, if he were in their shoes. I look at them...and I remember my own DAD. And my heart goes out to them...and I help them as much as I can. They have kids too...and they love their kids just as much as my dad loved me.
You have a very subjective view of this topic. I'm not surprised it has skewed your opinion.

However, the big picture is that this influx of illegals has caused a lot of problems in the country I was born in and love.

There are six billion people in the world, and almost all of them would like to be here.

We can't accommodate them all.

The best we can do is take in a reasonable number using a legal system of immigration.

It's the same system my father abided by when he emigrated to America more than 100 years ago.

He was invited here and came legally. There were no social benefits or welfare then. You came and worked hard or you went the hell back home.

I don't think - your experience notwithstanding - that's it's too much to ask others to follow the laws if they want to come here.

That's all I'm asking for now. That we enforce our laws and require others to follow them too.

[classhandicapper]

I think most Americans don't care much one way or the other if there are a lot of Mexican or Latin American immigrants. Liberals and conservatives are not so dumb. They both know that recent immigrants tend to vote to the left. So conservatives are worried about losing power to liberals (whose policies they think will ruin the country). Liberals counter by accusing conservatives of being bigots, hateful etc.. to shame people into allowing the flood gates to open and turning Texas blue etc...

The refugee issue is different.

The strategy of the left is the same (more voters).

The thinking on the right is related to the problems with assimilation in Europe, higher terrorism risk from certain countries etc..

Finally, both sides want cheap labor.

[delayjf]

Finally, both sides want cheap labor.

Is 15.00 an hour still cheap?

[Fager Fan]

Is that what you are really asking for? To take America back 200 years? You are a funny guy.

I am not just making an "argument", friend. I LIVED this argument for over 30 years. Ever since I was 16, I worked alongside these "illegal immigrants"...and saw first-hand how exploited they are...and how hard they work. And the Americans have hated them all along, because they (the illegals) are taking away the Americans' jobs. An American do a Mexican's job? Don't make me laugh. :D

The Mexican immigrants are the VICTIMS in this sad scenario. They can't feed themselves and their families in their own country...and they come here and willingly enslave themselves...and our country is eager to play along. The government looks the other way...while the business owners break the law with impunity. And we blame the poor Mexican for all of this. :rolleyes:


There ya go. All the Republicans have to do is start calling Hispanics indentured servants, and then the libs will jump right on board at stopping our abuse of hiring illegals.

[NorCalGreg]

Unfortunately, I can walk out my door....or take a drive around California and quickly see that story is the exception. If it were "Most"...or "A lot"...or "Quite a Few" I would feel differently about the guest workers.

The most galling part is---they have zero desire to become AMERICAN. They want to bring Latin America here. They can't wait to flee their country, yet they wave their flag everywhere unless it's at a demonstration demanding rights from OUR country.

This state is drowning in liberalism....and voted 2-1 for Hillary. You can't swing a dead cat here, without hitting someone with gang tattoos on their neck.

I mean...even the people you would EXPECT to vote for Trump--voted for Hillary.

What an ass-backward state I live in.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

I've heard this argument many times.

The question I have is, how did America make it through the first 200 years without illegal immigrants?
You know the borders were essentially open until the early 20th century, right? America passed the national immigration quotas in 1921. America made it through he first 150 years or so by letting everyone in who wanted to come.

The initial quotas were primarily in response to waves of somewhat darker skinned immigrants who came to American generally uneducated and unable to speak the language, and who would work for less and would take about any job, including strikebreakers. They were called Italians.

[Fager Fan]

Someone needs to explain to me how it is if we WANT all these illegals here, why don't we just grant them a green card or otherwise legal access? That to me is what is so maddening. It doesn't have to be allowing millions of illegals here or deporting them - we could make most of them legal. So what is wrong with that plan?

[Fager Fan]

Option B:

If Mexico is such a hellhole, and they all want to be in America, why not make Mexico a territory, with the thought that down the road we give Mexico statehood?

Assuming that as a territory we can gradually have private US interests build up and make life better in Mexico, then we solve the problem with them wanting to be here. And eventually we have oceans for walls.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Someone needs to explain to me how it is if we WANT all these illegals here, why don't we just grant them a green card or otherwise legal access? That to me is what is so maddening. It doesn't have to be allowing millions of illegals here or deporting them - we could make most of them legal. So what is wrong with that plan?
Other than the fact that "amnesty" is a hot button word, nothing

[OntheRail]

THE AMERICAN COULDN'T DO A MEXICAN'S JOB FOR TWICE THE PAY. And I have 35 years of business experience backing up this claim of mine. "At one time Americans did this, and that..." you say. Tell me...what stopped them from working this hard TODAY...the illegal immigrants? :D
Welfare... why work when the Government will feed, clothe and shelter your workless azz. Up till this point under liberal control the illegals were also finding free stuff from Uncle Sugar would allow them to work under the table for less and send more $$$$ homeward.

[OntheRail]

I will add to the above that the liberals and their entitlement policies and high minimum wage requirement have also contributed mightily to all of this...why work your ass off at some menial job as an American when you can get welfare instead and stay home playing video games?

And as a business owner, why pay these high minimum wages when you can hire an illegal at half the price?
BINGO!!! Pay the man with common sense!

[DSB]

You know the borders were essentially open until the early 20th century, right? America passed the national immigration quotas in 1921. America made it through he first 150 years or so by letting everyone in who wanted to come.

The initial quotas were primarily in response to waves of somewhat darker skinned immigrants who came to American generally uneducated and unable to speak the language, and who would work for less and would take about any job, including strikebreakers. They were called Italians.
Thanks for making my point for me.
Nowhere in your scenarios is the notion that we needed ILLEGAL immigrants to function as a society.
What we have always needed, and need now, is a flow of LEGAL immigrants.
You don't have any objection to that, do you?

[Show Me the Wire]

You know the borders were essentially open until the early 20th century, right? America passed the national immigration quotas in 1921. America made it through he first 150 years or so by letting everyone in who wanted to come.

The initial quotas were primarily in response to waves of somewhat darker skinned immigrants who came to American generally uneducated and unable to speak the language, and who would work for less and would take about any job, including strikebreakers. They were called Italians.

The Federalist Party in 1798 passed the Alien and Sedition Acts which lengthened the citizenship process to 14 years to weaken the political role of radical immigrants from France and Ireland. This became a major political issue in the 1800 election; the Jeffersonians won. They welcomed immigrants and repealed most of the restrictions.

Actually, it was in response to immigrants who were Roman Catholic, not due to a darker shade of skin.

Nativism gained its name from the "Native American" parties of the 1840s and 1850s. In this context "Native" does not mean indigenous or American Indian but rather those descended from the inhabitants of the original Thirteen Colonies. It impacted politics in the mid-19th century because of the large inflows of immigrants after 1845 from cultures that were different from the existing American culture. Nativists objected primarily to Irish Roman Catholics because of their loyalty to the Pope and also because of their supposed rejection of republicanism as an American ideal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativism_(politics)

[TJDave]

The typical American would be a LAUGHINGSTOCK if he were asked to work alongside a typical Mexican. The term "lazy Mexican" is an AMERICAN invention...without an ounce of truth attached to it. And, you don't have to believe me. Ask any grocery store or restaurant owner/manager that you might know.


Typically true north of the border but just the opposite in Mexico. I couldn't find competent help at any price. The country is socialist to the core and nearly 100% unionized. Just kills any work ethic.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

The Federalist Party in 1798 passed the Alien and Sedition Acts which lengthened the citizenship process to 14 years to weaken the political role of radical immigrants from France and Ireland. This became a major political issue in the 1800 election; the Jeffersonians won. They welcomed immigrants and repealed most of the restrictions.

Actually, it was in response to immigrants who were Roman Catholic, not due to a darker shade of skin.

Nativism gained its name from the "Native American" parties of the 1840s and 1850s. In this context "Native" does not mean indigenous or American Indian but rather those descended from the inhabitants of the original Thirteen Colonies. It impacted politics in the mid-19th century because of the large inflows of immigrants after 1845 from cultures that were different from the existing American culture. Nativists objected primarily to Irish Roman Catholics because of their loyalty to the Pope and also because of their supposed rejection of republicanism as an American ideal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativism_(politics)
The immigration quotas in the 1921 Act were primarily in response to the great waves of Italian immigrants, which is what I said. That has been well documented. The fact that the Italians were RC added to some of the discrimination, but by the 1920's the Catholics had established a firm foothold in America. There was still a WASPish elite network that was being cracked by second and third generation immigrants (like the Kennedy's), and anti-Catholic sentiment did not become irrelevant until much later in the century, but it was not like the early 1800's.

On the West Coast it was more the Chinese who spurred anti-immigration feelings, but a lot of the same issues as Italians - language barriers, appearance, education and job skill levels. The parallels to current Mexicans are pretty obvious. The difference is two fold. First, they started out as legal, even if it still took some number of years to gain citizenship. Second, they came with every intention of assimilating and becoming citizens. One way you could tell is that the second generation immigrants had Americanized.

I'm only suggesting this is not the first time America has had to deal with the issue. Reagan did it as soon back as the 80's.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Thanks for making my point for me.
Nowhere in your scenarios is the notion that we needed ILLEGAL immigrants to function as a society.
What we have always needed, and need now, is a flow of LEGAL immigrants.
You don't have any objection to that, do you?
My point is that you can't compare apples to oranges. We didn't have illegal immigrants until the Congress started passing quotas. But for various reasons we were able to absorb the large waves of immigrants for most of our history.

We need two things. Secure borders, which ultimately means making sure everyone entering the country has a legal status, and a comprehensive immigration policy that covers everything from immigration quotas to refugees to expedited processing for desirable immigrants.

[Show Me the Wire]

My point is that you can't compare apples to oranges. We didn't have illegal immigrants until the Congress started passing quotas. But for various reasons we were able to absorb the large waves of immigrants for most of our history.

We need two things. Secure borders, which ultimately means making sure everyone entering the country has a legal status, and a comprehensive immigration policy that covers everything from immigration quotas to refugees to expedited processing for desirable immigrants.

Exactly, we cannot compare apples to oranges. Culture was vastly different. The immigrants legal or illegal did not receive government cash, food stamps or health care. They relied on a system called subsistence, an idea Podesta ridiculed those backward Catholics about.

[JustRalph]

I have worked construction all my life. When I moved to Ca from Alaska. It was a eye opening experience. I was running a concrete finishing crew of about 60+ Mexicans. They were all illegals. I had my superintendent who was a illegal, tell me that Americans are stupid. He claimed, I believe it was 7 dependents on his W-2. Had 3 kids, not married to the mother of his children. He lived in a house that had 3 families sharing it. His girlfriend received rental assistance, food stamps, electrical bill assistance, welfare, free medical for everyone. All the families in the same house received all these freebies. He stated he lives free in America and is purchasing his 2nd home in Mexico. He will retire at 50, move back to Mexico, with stacks of money. He stated, "I love America" but your government is stupid. As he laughed all the way to the bank.

I've seen this scenario at least three times in the last twenty years. They plan it ahead of time too. I've had employees come to my wife and advise that they "have enough" they are taking their family home. Once they hit that magic number, they are set for life in Mexico.

[JustRalph]

The typical American would be a LAUGHINGSTOCK if he were asked to work alongside a typical Mexican. The term "lazy Mexican" is an AMERICAN invention...without an ounce of truth attached to it. And, you don't have to believe me. Ask any grocery store or restaurant owner/manager that you might know.

I hope my English is now clear enough for you to understand.

👍 Gus is right. Overtime is their favorite English word.....

[JustRalph]

There are at least 20 Mexicans living in the house next door to mine. 12 cars are parked overnight every night & they have children. It's a four bedroom 2½ house.

I saw this in Dallas a couple years back. As a Realtor I would encourage clients to drive through neighborhoods at 1-2 a.m. To get a real picture of who they would be living with.

My wife has an employee right now that works 40 hours a week for her in the kitchen. He has a car dealers license and sells cars he buys at the auction to our other employees (on payment plans) he also runs a Maint. Company (handyman, concrete, finish carpentry, powerwash, carpet cleaning, flooring) of which we contract with too. He owns about 5 acres of land in the country a half hour from work. On the land he has three manufactured homes (fancy mobile homes) he rents two and lives in the nicest one. He rents one to his sister. He rents one to another relative. Let's just say this guy is very busy. He has lately learned the art of sub contracting. He is fun to watch. He has documents that are good with a green card going back to 1998 in NC. I admire him.

[TJDave]

I've seen this scenario at least three times in the last twenty years. They plan it ahead of time too. I've had employees come to my wife and advise that they "have enough" they are taking their family home. Once they hit that magic number, they are set for life in Mexico.

Mexico is a great place for a pensioner. I did it for 15 years. Great people, food, scenery and DRINK.

I still keep a home there and my intention is to move back....when my liver recuperates. ;-)

[RunForTheRoses]

My point is that you can't compare apples to oranges. We didn't have illegal immigrants until the Congress started passing quotas. But for various reasons we were able to absorb the large waves of immigrants for most of our history.

We need two things. Secure borders, which ultimately means making sure everyone entering the country has a legal status, and a comprehensive immigration policy that covers everything from immigration quotas to refugees to expedited processing for desirable immigrants.

I think your the one comparing apples to oranges. If you go back far enough in history travel and migration was difficult. It is relatively easy now and it is also a snap to wire money across countries, keep in touch,etc. Not like it was in the 10th century.

Also, in your next post you said the 1924 Immigration Act was due to Italians. In fact. it was Italians, Jews, Poles, Irish, etc. In a History course I took the left wing professor had us read source documents. The people opposed had surnames such as Laguardia, Frankfurter, Wojcio, and Sullivan. The thing is that in my opinion it was time to coalesce as one People, too much diversity is harmful to a Nation. FTR I am of Italian and Irish ethnicity.

The true horror was the Hart Cellar Act of 1965. The people were hoodwinked. Lying left wingers stated the ethnicity of the nation would not change but we were hoodwinked. Bamboozled by elites such as the Kennedys.

This bill we sign today is not a revolutionary bill. It does not affect the lives of millions. It will not restructure the shape of our daily lives."

http://cis.org/1965ImmigrationAct-MassImmigration
So said President Lyndon Johnson at the signing of the Hart-Celler Immigration Bill thirty years ago next month, on Oct. 3, 1965. The legislation, which phased out the national origins quota system first instituted in 1921, created the foundation of today's immigration law. And, contrary to the president's assertions, it inaugurated a new era of mass immigration which has affected the lives of millions.


Trump should repeal Hart Cellar in First 100 Days.

[ElKabong]

Option B:

If Mexico is such a hellhole, and they all want to be in America, why not make Mexico a territory, with the thought that down the road we give Mexico statehood?

Assuming that as a territory we can gradually have private US interests build up and make life better in Mexico, then we solve the problem with them wanting to be here. And eventually we have oceans for walls.

I've been to Monclova several times on business. Trust me, you do NOT want to have anything to do with taking that armpit of a country into our responsibility. As soon as I landed at DFW I felt like kissing the Tarmac.

We sometimes forget how good we have it. And liberals sometimes forget how we EARNED the right to have it so good. It infuriates me to no end to see people flood across the border and take in free public education, literally take over public parks, have free costs to give birth to anchor babies (Dallas county residents, check your property tax bill and see how much we're getting whacked on this), and increase the crime rate along the way.

And put that "racist" shit away. I'm coming with facts. If you want to argue, then pay my parkland hospital tax and STFU. I'm not talking about immigrants. I'm talking about illegal immigrants.

Thask and anyone else can say what they want, they're wrong. Flat out wrong. Life here would be better without illegals.

[thaskalos]

Typically true north of the border but just the opposite in Mexico. I couldn't find competent help at any price. The country is socialist to the core and nearly 100% unionized. Just kills any work ethic.

This applies to the Greeks too. The only Greeks with true "work ethic" were the ones who migrated OUT of the country.

[Show Me the Wire]

This applies to the Greeks too. The only Greeks with true "work ethic" were the ones who migrated OUT of the country.

And we are happy they are here in the good ole U.S. Except maybe the Chicago Cub fans prior to 2016 :)

[RunForTheRoses]

I've been to Monclova several times on business. Trust me, you do NOT want to have anything to do with taking that armpit of a country into our responsibility. As soon as I landed at DFW I felt like kissing the Tarmac.

We sometimes forget how good we have it. And liberals sometimes forget how we EARNED the right to have it so good. It infuriates me to no end to see people flood across the border and take in free public education, literally take over public parks, have free costs to give birth to anchor babies (Dallas county residents, check your property tax bill and see how much we're getting whacked on this), and increase the crime rate along the way.

And put that "racist" shit away. I'm coming with facts. If you want to argue, then pay my parkland hospital tax and STFU. I'm not talking about immigrants. I'm talking about illegal immigrants.

Thask and anyone else can say what they want, they're wrong. Flat out wrong. Life here would be better without illegals.

:ThmbUp: Good post and btw my post above should read 19th not 10th century.

[thaskalos]

And we are happy they are here in the good ole U.S. Except maybe the Chicago Cub fans prior to 2016 :)

I agree. If it weren't for that Greek guy with the goat...GOD knows how many WS Championships the Cubs would have won.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

I think your the one comparing apples to oranges. If you go back far enough in history travel and migration was difficult. It is relatively easy now and it is also a snap to wire money across countries, keep in touch,etc. Not like it was in the 10th century.

Also, in your next post you said the 1924 Immigration Act was due to Italians. In fact. it was Italians, Jews, Poles, Irish, etc. In a History course I took the left wing professor had us read source documents. The people opposed had surnames such as Laguardia, Frankfurter, Wojcio, and Sullivan. The thing is that in my opinion it was time to coalesce as one People, too much diversity is harmful to a Nation. FTR I am of Italian and Irish ethnicity.

The true horror was the Hart Cellar Act of 1965. The people were hoodwinked. Lying left wingers stated the ethnicity of the nation would not change but we were hoodwinked. Bamboozled by elites such as the Kennedys.

This bill we sign today is not a revolutionary bill. It does not affect the lives of millions. It will not restructure the shape of our daily lives."

http://cis.org/1965ImmigrationAct-MassImmigration
So said President Lyndon Johnson at the signing of the Hart-Celler Immigration Bill thirty years ago next month, on Oct. 3, 1965. The legislation, which phased out the national origins quota system first instituted in 1921, created the foundation of today's immigration law. And, contrary to the president's assertions, it inaugurated a new era of mass immigration which has affected the lives of millions.


Trump should repeal Hart Cellar in First 100 Days.
You missed the continuity of the thread on this one. The apples and oranges reference was saying you couldn't compare the era before the quotas to the era after because before the quotas there were no illegals. In 1900, once you got on American soil you were here legally and you could stay however long you wanted. It had nothing to do with how you got here or how long it took. It simply said, there weren't illegals until we made a law.

The 1921 law (not 1924) was significantly motivated by the Italians, mainly because they were the largest immigrant group in the period 1880-1920, but that also wasn't the main point. Yes, other groups were part of the motivation, although the Congressional debates often referenced the Italians. But the point was not that the Italians were the sole reason there was an Act, but that the Italians paralleled the Mexicans in the sense that they didn't speak the language, they had a darker skinned look, they were uneducated, and they'd take pretty much any job. Almost all the Italian immigrants to America were from the south and Sicily, mainly for economic reasons.

And as I said, the difference with the Italians was that they came to the US intending to stay and achieve citizenship, and they assimilated within a generation or two. Of course one of the interesting things in the first half of the 20th century was that there were two world wars that gave America something to unite around.

As for Hart-Cellar you can make that your cause, although you have to realize that Congress has to be the one to amend the act, and chances are if Congress takes up immigration policy it will be a long process.

[Tom]

My point is that you can't compare apples to oranges. We didn't have illegal immigrants until the Congress started passing quotas. But for various reasons we were able to absorb the large waves of immigrants for most of our history.

The country then and today was not at all similar.
We were still settling vast areas, unlike today. And we not paying to be here with public assistances, etc. They pulled their own weight or they went hungry.

[steveb]

There are six billion people in the world, and almost all of them would like to be here.



not a snowflakes chance in hell.
especially after reading this thread!!

[classhandicapper]

I'll say it again. It's about politics!

If I was a democrat strategist that was only interested in winning I would do everything I could to flood the south (especially Texas) will as many legal and illegal immigrants as I could. That would give me a fighting chance of turning those states blue or at least winning more local elections until I could turn the entire state blue.

Most people with a functioning brain would see what was going on and would resist that for political, economic, and quality of life reasons. If they settled and lived in a red state state they would probably want it to stay red and/or rural. They also wouldn't want to see their local schools, hospitals, fire departments, police forces etc.. economically strained (they are paying for it) by a flood of new low skilled and under educated people, no matter what their nationality. They wouldn't want the wage pressures that are created by a flood of new workers either.

So as a democrat strategist, I'd have to figure out a way to counter that resistance.

I know.

I'd call them all racist, bigots, rednecks, haters etc...for not wanting good decent people to come to America because they are Latin American.

Then all the easily persuaded (better known as snowflakes, millennials, and flat out idiots) would push back harder against "hate and bigotry" and nothing will be done to stop it.

None of this is to say that there isn't bigotry and racism. We have plenty of that also.

But the reason we are allowing this to happen and the reason we can't get reasonable immigration reform is that the mantra of the left is "by any means necessary", "it's a means to an end" without any regard for the country or the will of the people in those areas.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

I'll say it again. It's about politics!

If I was a democrat strategist that was only interested in winning I would do everything I could to flood the south (especially Texas) will as many legal and illegal immigrants as I could. That would give me a fighting chance of turning those states blue or at least winning more local elections until I could turn the entire state blue.

Most people with a functioning brain would see what was going on and would resist that for political, economic, and quality of life reasons. If they settled and lived in a red state state they would probably want it to stay red and/or rural. They also wouldn't want to see their local schools, hospitals, fire departments, police forces etc.. economically strained (they are paying for it) by a flood of new low skilled and under educated people, no matter what their nationality. They wouldn't want the wage pressures that are created by a flood of new workers either.

So as a democrat strategist, I'd have to figure out a way to counter that resistance.

I know.

I'd call them all racist, bigots, rednecks, haters etc...for not wanting good decent people to come to America because they are Latin American.

Then all the easily persuaded (better known as snowflakes, millennials, and flat out idiots) would push back harder against "hate and bigotry" and nothing will be done to stop it.

None of this is to say that there isn't bigotry and racism. We have plenty of that also.

But the reason we are allowing this to happen and the reason we can't get reasonable immigration reform is that the mantra of the left is "by any means necessary", "it's a means to an end" without any regard for the country or the will of the people in those areas.
The Democrats lost the election because they were no longer the party of working class America. If you were a Democratic strategist and you made your suggestion, at this point you should be thrown out of the room. The Democrats do not need to solely be the party of recent immigrants or those dependent on entitlements. The need to figure out how they lost middle American and work to regain them. The last thing the Democrats need to do is call them bigots or haters or deplorables.

It was like Trump had done a survey on what pisses people off the most and made each of those things a talking point. Illegal immigration, jobs moving offshore, increasing health care prices. The irony is that republican business people are just as happy to take advantage of illegal immigrants as a cheap labor source as the democrats are as voting blocs. Don't kid yourself -both parties had their reasons to have gridlock on immigration reform. They manage to blame Obama for jobs moving offshore, as if the industry leaders weren't simply doing what CEO's do and increasing their bottom line. Anybody who understands why manufacturing jobs are drying up understands that automation is at least as responsible for job loss as moving jobs overseas. If Trump thinks he's going to save Michigan by banning GM from going to Mexico I think he's in for a shock. Of course the irony with the auto industry was that they were teetering on the precipice before they were bailed out.

What the Democrats never got was that tax and spend - even it was the rich being taxed - and massive giveaway programs - like free college education - didn't resonate like getting rid of illegals, tearing up trade agreements, and bombing the shit out of ISIS. They never got how the extreme PC - can't say Islamic terrorist for feat of offending the good Muslims - lost middle America.

They have a lot of work to do to become relevant in America. But trying to exploit hatred and bigotry by trying to stack the electorate with the huddled masses is the last thing they should be considering.

[NorCalGreg]

Good post, Halvey. :ThmbUp:

[ebcorde]

do not want low paying jobs. And every one wants PROPER Health insurance for their family. They don't want an Insurance company to tell them "oh we don't cover that"

This will be the GOP first time to deliver a huge federal program in ages. I;ll wait and see the bill. I went to Paul Ryan website to read his Healthcare proposals. Waste of time... nothing there but sales talk



Old people don't want to pay school taxes for their neighbors kid. BUT THEY DO AT LEAST FOR NOW

I want numbers if you say it's cheaper. I should see an example for a family of 4 with prior health problems costs vs Obamcare's gold plan costs by state NOT SEEING IT SO FAR SO ONE HAS TO WAIT


The far- flung rural areas will always suffer for Jobs in a Global economy
it's up to their State GOP administrations to figure it out.

The Economy:
I buy online from China all the time now. They have top quality goods NFL Brand Jersey for $8,what is it here $80. . Better quality Headphones than Sony for $12. The last USA quality product I purchased was a great Hair shaver. The bleeping motor on it could power thru your finger. It's Awesome. Cost $20 extra but worth it.

I live outside a steel town 80% of the Jobs have left , started in the mid 80's Trump buys steel from overseas. My Town will see if the Steel Jobs come back. we doubt it.,

[boxcar]

The Democrats lost the election because they were no longer the party of working class America. If you were a Democratic strategist and you made your suggestion, at this point you should be thrown out of the room. The Democrats do not need to solely be the party of recent immigrants or those dependent on entitlements. The need to figure out how they lost middle American and work to regain them. The last thing the Democrats need to do is call them bigots or haters or deplorables.

It was like Trump had done a survey on what pisses people off the most and made each of those things a talking point. Illegal immigration, jobs moving offshore, increasing health care prices. The irony is that republican business people are just as happy to take advantage of illegal immigrants as a cheap labor source as the democrats are as voting blocs. Don't kid yourself -both parties had their reasons to have gridlock on immigration reform. They manage to blame Obama for jobs moving offshore, as if the industry leaders weren't simply doing what CEO's do and increasing their bottom line. Anybody who understands why manufacturing jobs are drying up understands that automation is at least as responsible for job loss as moving jobs overseas. If Trump thinks he's going to save Michigan by banning GM from going to Mexico I think he's in for a shock. Of course the irony with the auto industry was that they were teetering on the precipice before they were bailed out.

What the Democrats never got was that tax and spend - even it was the rich being taxed - and massive giveaway programs - like free college education - didn't resonate like getting rid of illegals, tearing up trade agreements, and bombing the shit out of ISIS. They never got how the extreme PC - can't say Islamic terrorist for feat of offending the good Muslims - lost middle America.

They have a lot of work to do to become relevant in America. But trying to exploit hatred and bigotry by trying to stack the electorate with the huddled masses is the last thing they should be considering.

The Dems will never get the "middle" (or working class, as you called them) because all they know is identity politics which divides people and alienates the "middle". I would love to know how many rank and file union workers, as distinct from union bosses, voted for Trump. I have little doubt that he garnered a very large percentage of that category!

[EasyGoer89]

The Democrats lost the election because they were no longer the party of working class America. If you were a Democratic strategist and you made your suggestion, at this point you should be thrown out of the room. The Democrats do not need to solely be the party of recent immigrants or those dependent on entitlements. The need to figure out how they lost middle American and work to regain them. The last thing the Democrats need to do is call them bigots or haters or deplorables.

It was like Trump had done a survey on what pisses people off the most and made each of those things a talking point. Illegal immigration, jobs moving offshore, increasing health care prices. The irony is that republican business people are just as happy to take advantage of illegal immigrants as a cheap labor source as the democrats are as voting blocs. Don't kid yourself -both parties had their reasons to have gridlock on immigration reform. They manage to blame Obama for jobs moving offshore, as if the industry leaders weren't simply doing what CEO's do and increasing their bottom line. Anybody who understands why manufacturing jobs are drying up understands that automation is at least as responsible for job loss as moving jobs overseas. If Trump thinks he's going to save Michigan by banning GM from going to Mexico I think he's in for a shock. Of course the irony with the auto industry was that they were teetering on the precipice before they were bailed out.

What the Democrats never got was that tax and spend - even it was the rich being taxed - and massive giveaway programs - like free college education - didn't resonate like getting rid of illegals, tearing up trade agreements, and bombing the shit out of ISIS. They never got how the extreme PC - can't say Islamic terrorist for feat of offending the good Muslims - lost middle America.

They have a lot of work to do to become relevant in America. But trying to exploit hatred and bigotry by trying to stack the electorate with the huddled masses is the last thing they should be considering.

He's not banning GM from going to Mexico, he never suggested that.

[classhandicapper]

The Democrats lost the election because they were no longer the party of working class America.

On this I agree 100%, but I'd still want the borders wide open if I was a democrat. The democrats have to try to get the "workers" back, but no way they are going to help Trump stop the flow of illegal immigrants. There's no freaking way.

They may or may not tone down the "deplorable" rhetoric, but large numbers of people BELIEVE that everyone that wanted controlled immigration is a racist and many were shamed into voting for Hillary.

[chadk66]

Clinton pretty much showed the liberal playbook to everybody. Without throwing the Clintons and their ilk to the wolves the Dem's will be a thing of the past. There are some good democrats in this country and even they have had their fill of the scum of the party. There may be more than one jump ship in the congress this year too.

[classhandicapper]

Anybody who understands why manufacturing jobs are drying up understands that automation is at least as responsible for job loss as moving jobs overseas. .


On the automation vs. jobs moving issue, it's BOTH.

There's not much we can do about the automation aspect of it, but you can make it more attractive to manufacture here by making better trade deals, removing tax and other incentives to leave, putting positive incentives in place, making sure the currency system is sound and there is less manipulation etc..

This whole free trade debate is the biggest load of crap ever. I'm embarrassed I fell for it for so long. Free trade has a chance to work well between two parties when wages, regulations, standards of living, education, security, political stability etc... of both parties are fairly similar. When they aren't, one side or the other will win.

We lost on a net basis.

We got cheap labor overseas & higher profits for multinationals. We got cheaper goods that depreciate in value for consumers.

They got way more jobs, way more profits, and they reinvested it all into our appreciating real estate, bonds, stocks, and businesses via our trade and current account deficits.

If we keep doing this for 100 years the free traders will be right, but all the people that got screwed will be dead and foreigners will own even more of our debt and stock market.

[olddaddy]

This applies to the Greeks too. The only Greeks with true "work ethic" were the ones who migrated OUT of the country.


I have no idea what I would have done when young, without the greek immigration. No late night greasy spoons without them.

[ebcorde]

On the automation vs. jobs moving issue, it's BOTH.

There's not much we can do about the automation aspect of it, but you can make it more attractive to manufacture here by making better trade deals, removing tax and other incentives to leave, putting positive incentives in place etc..

This whole free trade debate is the biggest load of crap ever. I'm embarrassed I fell for it for so long. Free trade has a chance to work well between two parties when wages, regulations, standards of living, education, security, political stability etc... of both parties are fairly similar. When they aren't, one side or the other will win.

We lost on a net basis.

We got cheap labor overseas & higher profits for multinationals. We got cheaper goods that depreciate in value for consumers.

They got way more jobs, way more profits, and they reinvested it all into our appreciating real estate, bonds, stocks, and businesses via our trade and current account deficits.

If we keep doing this for 100 years the free traders will be right, but all the people that got screwed will be dead and foreigners will own even more of our debt and stock market.

Kinda funny. Trade is great until you feel you're getting the short end of the stick.

I worked at a factory, I watched as the factory literally move and set up shop in Queretaro,Mexico. The only people happy were the Managers whom were not losing their jobs. Labor costs drops, sales prices remained the same, More profit.

In 1992 I only recall Ross saying it was a big mistake and I laughed too.

Even if Trump can prevent that. Companies pay a lot money for Smart guys to figure out workarounds Much smarter than those "surrogates" I see on TV.

what my old company did was ship product 95% finished to Texas, then finish the product and put a "MADE IN THE USA" STICKER ON IT. The Federal govt made us change to "ASSEMBLED IN USA" a year later.

I believe no matter what Govt implements the Corporations are smarter, they'll figure out a work-around,

[HalvOnHorseracing]

He's not banning GM from going to Mexico, he never suggested that.
Focus on the big picture. Trump criticized Ford for moving manufacturing to Mexico. The point, and it is the important point, is that Trump wants to keep the jobs from moving to foreign countries whether he does it by fiat or through some economic means. The bill of goods he sold the rust belt states was that he would keep those jobs from leaving America. That's the point.

[EasyGoer89]

Focus on the big picture. Trump criticized Ford for moving manufacturing to Mexico. The point, and it is the important point, is that Trump wants to keep the jobs from moving to foreign countries whether he does it by fiat or through some economic means. The bill of goods he sold the rust belt states was that he would keep those jobs from leaving America. That's the point.

He actually said those jobs might move to other states within America. The big picture is he's not going to prevent anyone from leaving, just making them pay a big price if they want to sell those foreign manufactured products in America, some will still leave I would imagine.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

On the automation vs. jobs moving issue, it's BOTH.

There's not much we can do about the automation aspect of it, but you can make it more attractive to manufacture here by making better trade deals, removing tax and other incentives to leave, putting positive incentives in place, making sure the currency system is sound and there is less manipulation etc..

This whole free trade debate is the biggest load of crap ever. I'm embarrassed I fell for it for so long. Free trade has a chance to work well between two parties when wages, regulations, standards of living, education, security, political stability etc... of both parties are fairly similar. When they aren't, one side or the other will win.

We lost on a net basis.

We got cheap labor overseas & higher profits for multinationals. We got cheaper goods that depreciate in value for consumers.

They got way more jobs, way more profits, and they reinvested it all into our appreciating real estate, bonds, stocks, and businesses via our trade and current account deficits.

If we keep doing this for 100 years the free traders will be right, but all the people that got screwed will be dead and foreigners will own even more of our debt and stock market.
Again, the irony is that because the Democrats were the party of labor, they historically opposed trade agreements. If there is one thing the unions were insistent upon it was keeping jobs. The Chambers of Commerce, on the other hand, favored trade agreements. Generally, it meant opening new markets for larger American companies. As labor became less and less influential, it became easier to negotiate trade agreements. As it exists now, more union members are in the public sector (police, fire, teachers, government workers) than the private sector, and overall only about 11% of American workers are in a union. The public sector workers really don't have a dog in the movement of jobs overseas, and the private sector union workers don't have the power they once had.

I totally agree. Free trade is as much about profit for the multi-nationals as anything. But, the heroin for the regular folks were cheap prices. You want fresh produce in the winter? It's going to come from places like Mexico and Chile. Walmart has built an entire empire around cheap foreign merchandise. We can't compete on price with steel. Americans demand to be paid enough to live like first worlders. Without some offsetting reduction in other production costs (raw materials, transportation, operating cost, taxes) the cost of goods would rise, and you'd probably find yourself in an inflationary spiral.

I think it will be great spectator sport to watch the discussions on how we're going to keep companies from leaving, create better jobs in the traditional industrial states, and re-do trade agreements.

[Track Collector]

I think it will be great spectator sport to watch the discussions on how we're going to keep companies from leaving, create better jobs in the traditional industrial states, and re-do trade agreements.

Perhaps, but at least we have a much better chance of success having a successful, real-world business person doing the negotiations instead of career politicians who would not know the real world if it hit them in the ***.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing
I think it will be great spectator sport to watch the discussions on how we're going to keep companies from leaving, create better jobs in the traditional industrial states, and re-do trade agreements.

Might be better to actually try to help him achieve these goals, for the good of all, but then , that was never a concern of the left.

Don't worry, a rising tide floats all boats.
The left will, unfortunately, benefit too.

[Fager Fan]

I'll say it again. It's about politics!

If I was a democrat strategist that was only interested in winning I would do everything I could to flood the south (especially Texas) will as many legal and illegal immigrants as I could. That would give me a fighting chance of turning those states blue or at least winning more local elections until I could turn the entire state blue.

Most people with a functioning brain would see what was going on and would resist that for political, economic, and quality of life reasons. If they settled and lived in a red state state they would probably want it to stay red and/or rural. They also wouldn't want to see their local schools, hospitals, fire departments, police forces etc.. economically strained (they are paying for it) by a flood of new low skilled and under educated people, no matter what their nationality. They wouldn't want the wage pressures that are created by a flood of new workers either.

So as a democrat strategist, I'd have to figure out a way to counter that resistance.

I know.

I'd call them all racist, bigots, rednecks, haters etc...for not wanting good decent people to come to America because they are Latin American.

Then all the easily persuaded (better known as snowflakes, millennials, and flat out idiots) would push back harder against "hate and bigotry" and nothing will be done to stop it.

None of this is to say that there isn't bigotry and racism. We have plenty of that also.

But the reason we are allowing this to happen and the reason we can't get reasonable immigration reform is that the mantra of the left is "by any means necessary", "it's a means to an end" without any regard for the country or the will of the people in those areas.

Your post is 100% right, with one exception that I'll get to in a minute. The right has absolutely failed at pointing out at every chance the liberal plan here, and nipping the "hate" and "bigoted" talk.

Where I think you're off is the admittance that there is some hate and bigotry. Neither side should have to defend themselves about the occasional loon on their side. On the right, I see very little evidence of hate or bigotry of Hispanics. The only somewhat widespread complaint is the lack of assimilation and learning our language. As for Muslims, I think that we should point out that skepticism can be healthy and common sense, and that is what we're using.

[chadk66]

Your post is 100% right, with one exception that I'll get to in a minute. The right has absolutely failed at pointing out at every chance the liberal plan here, and nipping the "hate" and "bigoted" talk.

Where I think you're off is the admittance that there is some hate and bigotry. Neither side should have to defend themselves about the occasional loon on their side. On the right, I see very little evidence of hate or bigotry of Hispanics. The only somewhat widespread complaint is the lack of assimilation and learning our language. As for Muslims, I think that we should point out that skepticism can be healthy and common sense, and that is what we're using.you can put as many illegals as you want in TX and it won't change a thing. The whole economy revolves around oil production there. and an enormous number of illegals work in the oil industry. they know where their bread is buttered. one thing these illegals aren't is stupid for the most part.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Might be better to actually try to help him achieve these goals, for the good of all, but then , that was never a concern of the left.

Don't worry, a rising tide floats all boats.
The left will, unfortunately, benefit too.
I think he deserves at least as much help as the Republicans gave Obama. Now that Trump is in office we should forget the acrimony of the last eight years, as if we've hit our quota and we're now ready to stop acting like - well like you've been acting for the last eight years. Naturally your excuse is that it was our sovereign duty to oppose anything Obama came up with, making sure we didn't help him to achieve anything, because he only had "bad" stuff whereas Trump has a laundry list of critical strategies, heretofore untried since at least the Bush administration.

I never suggested obstructionism of the sort he Republican Congress employed toward anything Obama. I never said something like "We need to do everything we can to make Trump a one-term president" like Mitch McConnell did. I'm perfectly fine with the idea of having a reasonable debate about Trump's plans and programs, but i'm not deluded into believing the Democrats are going to roll over and expose their underbelly in some cheesy imitation of Rodney King saying, can't we all just get along.

When Trump comes up with a good policy, I hope everyone does pull together. But in the same regard if he does something like insisting we need a wall and the Mexicans need to pay for it, a good knock down, drag out debate sounds like a decent idea.

As George Will noted in his explanation of how Trump can hardly claim to be a real conservative

"What are we saying if we are against free trade? Protectionism is comprehensive government intervention in economic life. It supplants commercial calculations with political considerations. Using tariffs, which are taxes imposed at the border, government imposes its judgment of what Americans should be permitted to purchase, in what quantities and at what prices. If Conservatism can embrace statism, can it distinguish itself from Progressivism - the doctrine that government experts are smarter than markets in determining individuals' choices and directing the efficient use of labor and capital?"

[EasyGoer89]

I think he deserves at least as much help as the Republicans gave Obama. Now that Trump is in office we should forget the acrimony of the last eight years, as if we've hit our quota and we're now ready to stop acting like - well like you've been acting for the last eight years. Naturally your excuse is that it was our sovereign duty to oppose anything Obama came up with, making sure we didn't help him to achieve anything, because he only had "bad" stuff whereas Trump has a laundry list of critical strategies, heretofore untried since at least the Bush administration.

I never suggested obstructionism of the sort he Republican Congress employed toward anything Obama. I never said something like "We need to do everything we can to make Trump a one-term president" like Mitch McConnell did. I'm perfectly fine with the idea of having a reasonable debate about Trump's plans and programs, but i'm not deluded into believing the Democrats are going to roll over and expose their underbelly in some cheesy imitation of Rodney King saying, can't we all just get along.

When Trump comes up with a good policy, I hope everyone does pull together. But in the same regard if he does something like insisting we need a wall and the Mexicans need to pay for it, a good knock down, drag out debate sounds like a decent idea.

As George Will noted in his explanation of how Trump can hardly claim to be a real conservative

"What are we saying if we are against free trade? Protectionism is comprehensive government intervention in economic life. It supplants commercial calculations with political considerations. Using tariffs, which are taxes imposed at the border, government imposes its judgment of what Americans should be permitted to purchase, in what quantities and at what prices. If Conservatism can embrace statism, can it distinguish itself from Progressivism - the doctrine that government experts are smarter than markets in determining individuals' choices and directing the efficient use of labor and capital?"

But the majority of Americans voted on yes wall and yes Mexico pays, why would there need to be a drag down debate for something the majority want?

[chadk66]

we're building a wall and mexico's paying for it. end of discussion.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

But the majority of Americans voted on yes wall and yes Mexico pays, why would there need to be a drag down debate for something the majority want?
First, the majority of Americans voted for Hillary, so i'd say your mandate is a little tenuous. But your argument is that if -- let's call him Candidate "O" -- gets elected and he campaigned on say, closing Guantanamo, then that settles it? No debate? The majority of Americans voted yes on closing Guantanamo so there is no need to drag down debate for something the majority want? Am I understanding the new world order here?

[HalvOnHorseracing]

we're building a wall and mexico's paying for it. end of discussion.
Being that there are allegedly gamblers on this site, how about a simple wager. If Trump builds a wall and the Mexicans pay for it, I vote for whomever the Republican candidate is in 2020. No wall or no funding by Mexico and you vote for the Democratic candidate. How about it?

[chadk66]

Being that there are allegedly gamblers on this site, how about a simple wager. If Trump builds a wall and the Mexicans pay for it, I vote for whomever the Republican candidate is in 2020. No wall or no funding by Mexico and you vote for the Democratic candidate. How about it?I assume your of right mind so I would expect you'll be voting trump in 2020. have to have a better bet than that.

[fast4522]

A place to start for deportations? From #1

Let us not forget that ICE and ALL the border agents endorsed Donald J. Trump.
When the POTUS directs the Federal Government they will start rounding them up, gangbangers with extreme prejudice.

[reckless]

Being that there are allegedly gamblers on this site, how about a simple wager. If Trump builds a wall and the Mexicans pay for it, I vote for whomever the Republican candidate is in 2020. No wall or no funding by Mexico and you vote for the Democratic candidate. How about it?

Even if the candidates are Cory Booker or Tim Kaine ....? No thanks. :D

[Tom]

As George Will noted in his explanation of how Trump can hardly claim to be a real conservative

No one said he was conservative.
Will just like to hear himself talk, usually garbage.

No conservative ran this year, so we opted for the only American running.

And yes, Obama and the dems never offered any legislation remotely good for the nation.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Even if the candidates are Cory Booker or Tim Kaine ....? No thanks. :D
You sure? I know I'd hate to not pull the trigger on a sure thing!

[reckless]

You sure? I know I'd hate to not pull the trigger on a sure thing!

Well as of this moment anyway.... Cory Booker and Tim Kaine are the two front-runners for the 2020 Democrat Party nominations.

2020? Democrat Party nominations? Wow, did I just type this....? :D

[ElKabong]

you can put as many illegals as you want in TX and it won't change a thing. The whole economy revolves around oil production there. and an enormous number of illegals work in the oil industry. they know where their bread is buttered. one thing these illegals aren't is stupid for the most part.

Just now saw this. ...Thirty years ago you could say our economy here revolves around the oil industry,, but that went out the window in the 90s. Mostly because the bush admin, as gov, was hellbent on diversifying the economy. In Dallas for example we are almost fully insulated against any oil and gas related downturn. Just drive around the areas of business here and you'll see it plain as day

We owe the repub govs a big thank you here. All the way back to bill Clements they've recruited a wide range of industries to come here

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Well as of this moment anyway.... Cory Booker and Tim Kaine are the two front-runners for the 2020 Democrat Party nominations.

2020? Democrat Party nominations? Wow, did I just type this....? :D
Neither would be a good choice in my opinion. If Trump succeeds in implementing his big policy items, I expect whoever the Dems nominate is irrelevant. The Dems need more of a Joe Biden sort - a regular guy with real blue collar roots and an ability to connect with average people, and someone who has the general respect of the Congress. Who that might possibly be I have no clue, but Booker and Kaine aren't the answer.

I have a bias toward Governors as presidential candidates, although the only two that currently strike me as the possible type who could compete are Jay Nixon and Steve Bullock. At least governors can claim to have been chief executives.

[Tom]

Democrats....average people...... :confused:



Uh, ok (slowly backing away....slight whistle, gazing upwards.....)

[Clocker]

Democrats....average people...... :confused:



Uh, ok (slowly backing away....slight whistle, gazing upwards.....)

The Democrats were the blue-collar working class party for a long time. They tossed it all into a dumpster fire by catering to elites like Goldman Sachs and Middle East donors and by pandering to minorities with promises they never delivered on. The 'dead-broke' Clintons led the parade to the big sell-out with blatant greed, corruption, and pay for play 'donations'.

All of a sudden they wake up to find that the biggest minority of all is the white working class, and they just moved to the right looking for a better deal.

[Actor]

Would not the revocation of an amnesty granted by one president by a subsequent president amount to a violation of both the double jeopardy and the non-incrimination provisions of the constitution?

[ElKabong]

Would not the revocation of an amnesty granted by one president by a subsequent president amount to a violation of both the double jeopardy and the non-incrimination provisions of the constitution?

Negative.

I reference the movie Life and TImes of JUdge Roy Bean. The judge was reminded of a law that didn't fit his agenda, was shown the page of law in a book... The judge ripped the page out and said "thats a bad law. I just repealed it"

Welcome to the Wild West. Preznits can giveth, preznits can taketh away.

Elections have consequences I hear. Deal.

[OntheRail]

Would not the revocation of an amnesty granted by one president by a subsequent president amount to a violation of both the double jeopardy and the non-incrimination provisions of the constitution?
NO... ;)

[JustRalph]

Would not the revocation of an amnesty granted by one president by a subsequent president amount to a violation of both the double jeopardy and the non-incrimination provisions of the constitution?

Ummmm.......no. Individual rights versus what you are talking about are two completely different things.

Jimmy Carter did Trump a favor when he refused entry to Iranians. Lots of arguments for and against have already been hashed out

[chadk66]

pretty sure a president can't grant amnesty to anybody. that's congress's job. he could try but I think the SCOTUS will make it null and void.

[Actor]

pretty sure a president can't grant amnesty to anybody. that's congress's job. he could try but I think the SCOTUS will make it null and void.According to one source SCOTUS took up the question last April but I can't find anything else about. They probably have not decided yet.

[chadk66]

According to one source SCOTUS took up the question last April but I can't find anything else about. They probably have not decided yet.Obama's executive order regarding illegals was squelched by the SCOTUS

[riskman]

HalvOnHorseracing

Your post 97 hit the nail on the head. Good work.

[chadk66]

Just now saw this. ...Thirty years ago you could say our economy here revolves around the oil industry,, but that went out the window in the 90s. Mostly because the bush admin, as gov, was hellbent on diversifying the economy. In Dallas for example we are almost fully insulated against any oil and gas related downturn. Just drive around the areas of business here and you'll see it plain as day

We owe the repub govs a big thank you here. All the way back to bill Clements they've recruited a wide range of industries to come herethe percentage of latinos working in oil is staggering

[EasyGoer89]

Well as of this moment anyway.... Cory Booker and Tim Kaine are the two front-runners for the 2020 Democrat Party nominations.

2020? Democrat Party nominations? Wow, did I just type this....? :D

tim Kaine? As John Oliver might say DO IT DO IT LOOK AT MY EYES DO IT.

[woodtoo]

Kick Harry Reid all the way to Mexico would be a great start. :ThmbUp:

[ElKabong]

the percentage of latinos working in oil is staggering

Not in Texas. Latinos do steal jobs in other industries like construction, but I haven't seen Latinos dominate the oil industry here.

Back to my original reply to you.... The oil industry downturn has far less effect on our economy than it did in the past ( in Dallas we didn't feel it at all).

[chadk66]

Not in Texas. Latinos do steal jobs in other industries like construction, but I haven't seen Latinos dominate the oil industry here.

Back to my original reply to you.... The oil industry downturn has far less effect on our economy than it did in the past ( in Dallas we didn't feel it at all).glad to hear that. maybe all the latinos there came up here to ND. don't worry though they'll be back down there by next week, big blizzard gonna hit friday :D what do you do for a living?

[ElKabong]

Energy Broker & Consultant.

Thirty plus years as a Manufacturing Engineer (Defense Electronics, Mining industry) , then Procurement Contracts (Aerospace, Construction).

Have seen manufacturing here dwindle swiftly starting around 2000 or so. Can only imagine how bad it is in the rust belt. Our saving grace was Bush's efforts in diversifying the economy before he ran for Potus. Deregulation in my current field has been a boost.

[burnsy]

If...if you like your anonymity, you...you...you can keep your anonymity.

Exactly, it ain't going to happen. He's the "republican Obama". From "Hope and Change" to "Make America Great again". The American voter is the biggest sucker....Hilary......Trump. Geez, wasn't he writing her checks just a couple years ago? Yeah, he's a real outsider :lol: . Watch the back peddling begin. Like it always does. When will people figure out that the elections are one big "reality show". They will say and do ANYTHING and of course about 90% of it never happens.

The Republicans will block this more than the Democrats....just not in public..... :)

Trump and Bill are smoking stogies together getting a big kick out of this one....... :bang:

Lets just sit back and see what really takes place now...this guy has the best act yet.

Let me know how that wall is coming along...... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[EasyGoer89]

Exactly, it ain't going to happen. He's the "republican Obama". From "Hope and Change" to "Make America Great again". The American voter is the biggest sucker....Hilary......Trump. Geez, wasn't he writing her checks just a couple years ago? Yeah, he's a real outsider :lol: . Watch the back peddling begin. Like it always does. When will people figure out that the elections are one big "reality show". They will say and do ANYTHING and of course about 90% of it never happens.

The Republicans will block this more than the Democrats....just not in public..... :)

Trump and Bill are smoking stogies together getting a big kick out of this one....... :bang:

Lets just sit back and see what really takes place now...this guy has the best act yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEAH5RRNBoA

[burnsy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEAH5RRNBoA

When that wall is built. Do pigs fly? I'll believe it when it happens and it won't ever happen.

Watch the start of the "softening" folks.....Like I said, its an American pipe dream just like the other side had for the last 8 years..... :lol:

The WWE is more believable.

[barahona44]

Exactly, it ain't going to happen. He's the "republican Obama". From "Hope and Change" to "Make America Great again". The American voter is the biggest sucker....Hilary......Trump. Geez, wasn't he writing her checks just a couple years ago? Yeah, he's a real outsider :lol: . Watch the back peddling begin. Like it always does. When will people figure out that the elections are one big "reality show". They will say and do ANYTHING and of course about 90% of it never happens.

The Republicans will block this more than the Democrats....just not in public..... :)

Trump and Bill are smoking stogies together getting a big kick out of this one....... :bang:

Lets just sit back and see what really takes place now...this guy has the best act yet.

Let me know how that wall is coming along...... :lol: :lol: :lol:
I hope Trump is smart enough not to smoke any cigars from Bill's collection :eek: :)

[fast4522]

When that wall is built. Do pigs fly? I'll believe it when it happens and it won't ever happen.

Watch the start of the "softening" folks.....Like I said, its an American pipe dream just like the other side had for the last 8 years..... :lol:

The WWE is more believable.

You are in for a rude awaking, minus being able to post a source you bad dream is real soon on several fronts.

[JustRalph]

Exactly, it ain't going to happen. He's the "republican Obama". From "Hope and Change" to "Make America Great again". The American voter is the biggest sucker....Hilary......Trump. Geez, wasn't he writing her checks just a couple years ago? Yeah, he's a real outsider :lol: . Watch the back peddling begin. Like it always does. When will people figure out that the elections are one big "reality show". They will say and do ANYTHING and of course about 90% of it never happens.

The Republicans will block this more than the Democrats....just not in public..... :)

Trump and Bill are smoking stogies together getting a big kick out of this one....... :bang:

Lets just sit back and see what really takes place now...this guy has the best act yet.

Let me know how that wall is coming along...... :lol: :lol: :lol:

That's why some of us care more about the Supreme Court etc.....we get that the difference between the two is negligible in many areas. But there are dividing lines. Those lines count.

[Tom]

How about we allow ALL the illegals to stay here and just deport Ding Harry Reid, the most disgusting, useless POS anti-American to ever embarrass this country by still being alive.

What an argument for being pro-abortion.
:ThmbDown::ThmbDown::ThmbDown::ThmbDown:

[Inner Dirt]

Kick Harry Reid all the way to Mexico would be a great start. :ThmbUp:

I would rather he was dropped on a deserted island in the middle of the ocean.