2016-2017 NBA thread

[Valuist]

I was in Reno last weekend and made these season win total wagers: Minnesota over 41, New York under 40.

These are both Bulls second derivative plays. Tibs is a great coach, and this young team needs a taskmaster to keep them focused on the defensive end. As for the Knicks, I believe its addition for subtraction for the Bulls. Rose is a shell of the 2010 Rose, and Noah has just had too many injuries. I laugh when I see the public hammering the over. The public can't get these right. They hammered the Diamondbacks over this year and got slaughtered. They hammered the Padres in 2015 and also got slaughtered. They like to bet teams that make free agent moves, which often don't work, and very rarely work in their first year.

I also look for the Spurs to be more of an uptempo team with Duncan retiring and Gasol coming aboard. The linemakers will catch up taking SA/GS Over 213 tonight.

[lansdale]

I was in Reno last weekend and made these season win total wagers: Minnesota over 41, New York under 40.

These are both Bulls second derivative plays. Tibs is a great coach, and this young team needs a taskmaster to keep them focused on the defensive end. As for the Knicks, I believe its addition for subtraction for the Bulls. Rose is a shell of the 2010 Rose, and Noah has just had too many injuries. I laugh when I see the public hammering the over. The public can't get these right. They hammered the Diamondbacks over this year and got slaughtered. They hammered the Padres in 2015 and also got slaughtered. They like to bet teams that make free agent moves, which often don't work, and very rarely work in their first year.

I also look for the Spurs to be more of an uptempo team with Duncan retiring and Gasol coming aboard. The linemakers will catch up taking SA/GS Over 213 tonight.

Generally agree with this take on these teams, but don't think Spurs will be any quicker with Gasol on the floor. I was pleasantly surprised by tonight's blow-out. Dubs looked sluggish and the much improved J. Simmons was awesome -- if he's added the three to his game, the Spurs could be tougher than anyone (including me) thought. Think Kawhi will give Curry a serious run for the MVP -- in beast mode all night. OTOH Gasol looked 100 years old -- like Duncan, he just can't run with GSW -- still working his way into the offense.

Understood that Dubs are still learning to play together, but they look like they seriously miss Bogut's D, passing and (illegal?) screens. Iguodala was a shadow of himself -- wondering if he's completely recovered from his Finals injury. If Pachulia doesn't get it together by Christmas, think Kerr will be shopping for another big man.

Re T'Wolves -- a good young team and certainly much better than Knicks, but wouldn't be surprised to see tensions develop between he and either/both KAT and/or Wiggins.

BTW, have had some opportunities to see Embiid in pre-season action -- may sound like hype but looks like easy HOFer -- if he stays healthy, good chance for 20/12 this year -- soon will be better than KAT, maybe => AD.

[lansdale]

Generally agree with this take on these teams, but don't think Spurs will be any quicker with Gasol on the floor. I was pleasantly surprised by tonight's blow-out. Dubs looked sluggish and the much improved J. Simmons was awesome -- if he's added the three to his game, the Spurs could be tougher than anyone (including me) thought. Think Kawhi will give Curry a serious run for the MVP -- in beast mode all night. OTOH Gasol looked 100 years old -- like Duncan, he just can't run with GSW -- still working his way into the offense.

Understood that Dubs are still learning to play together, but they look like they seriously miss Bogut's D, passing and (illegal?) screens. Iguodala was a shadow of himself -- wondering if he's completely recovered from his Finals injury. If Pachulia doesn't get it together by Christmas, think Kerr will be shopping for another big man.

Re T'Wolves -- a good young team and certainly much better than Knicks, but wouldn't be surprised to see tensions develop between he and either/both KAT and/or Wiggins.

BTW, have had some opportunities to see Embiid in pre-season action -- may sound like hype but looks like easy HOFer -- if he stays healthy, good chance for 20/12 this year -- soon will be better than KAT, maybe => AD.

To follow up -- Embiid begins his NBA career tonight vs. OKC. OKC will crush Sixers, but will be interesting to see how Embiid fares vs. Adams -- did pretty well in pre-season. Believe he's still on limited minutes. Unheralded Lauvergne has looked good for OKC in pre-season.

[Valuist]

The Spurs tempo isn't so much about Gasol, but the fact the offense will be less half court without Duncan. And Duncan's defensive ability will be missed.

Spurs/Kings for Thursday was at 206. When these two teams face off in 3 weeks back in Sacramento, I think we see a total of 212-213.

[lansdale]

The Spurs tempo isn't so much about Gasol, but the fact the offense will be less half court without Duncan. And Duncan's defensive ability will be missed.

Spurs/Kings for Thursday was at 206. When these two teams face off in 3 weeks back in Sacramento, I think we see a total of 212-213.

Aside from Duncan, the Spurs also parted with D. West and Diaw, also not speed-demons, at this point, so they should be a bit quicker. But most of the speed is still on the bench. Of the starters, only Kawhi and Green really get out on the break -- LMA is okay, but Gasol and TP can no longer run with the GSW/Clips/OKC faction. That said, Gasol is still a valuable talent -- he can score, rebound, and despite weak D overall, can block shots. As you say, with the absence of Duncan's D, the team will show a decline in that area, but think Gasol's scoring will even things out, giving them the same ca. 10-pt. differential overall.

Agree re Spurs/Kings -- BTW, O/U I see is now 203, so even more worth grabbing.

And re the season O/U board in Reno you mention, both those numbers are huge bargains -- Westgate is the same on Minn., but has Knicks at 38, so anyone in the Reno are should jump on this.

[Valuist]

Aside from Duncan, the Spurs also parted with D. West and Diaw, also not speed-demons, at this point, so they should be a bit quicker. But most of the speed is still on the bench. Of the starters, only Kawhi and Green really get out on the break -- LMA is okay, but Gasol and TP can no longer run with the GSW/Clips/OKC faction. That said, Gasol is still a valuable talent -- he can score, rebound, and despite weak D overall, can block shots. As you say, with the absence of Duncan's D, the team will show a decline in that area, but think Gasol's scoring will even things out, giving them the same ca. 10-pt. differential overall.

Agree re Spurs/Kings -- BTW, O/U I see is now 203, so even more worth grabbing.

And re the season O/U board in Reno you mention, both those numbers are huge bargains -- Westgate is the same on Minn., but has Knicks at 38, so anyone in the Reno are should jump on this.

Nowadays, most of the books in Reno are affiliated with William Hill. I think the only non WH books may be the Peppermill and Atlantis, although Horses 4 Courses may be the one to ask on that.

I think that total drop on Spurs/Kings is more about the Kings and some comments that were mentioned about maybe playing a little slower. But, the Kings, on no rest and off a win, are also possible to take the night off on the defensive end.

[hugh]

Clippers always get over bet.
Taking Portland at home with the 2.5 points.
Only 33% on the Blazers.

[manuelinbmw]

Warriors are playing tonight after coming off a loss to San Antonio I look for them to get back on track.

[Valuist]

The Warriors look lost without Durant. Hard to believe they won 73 games last year without him. Curry, Thompson and Green all in shooting slumps.

[cj]

The Warriors look lost without Durant. Hard to believe they won 73 games last year without him. Curry, Thompson and Green all in shooting slumps.

They did lose quite a bit from their roster to get Durant. It isn't like it is the same team as last year when Durant doesn't play.

[Valuist]

They did lose quite a bit from their roster to get Durant. It isn't like it is the same team as last year when Durant doesn't play.

There were some changes but the core is still intact. Even the two main guys off the bench, Iguadala and Livingston, are still there. Right now, its three guys in a shooting slump at the same time.

[cj]

There were some changes but the core is still intact. Even the two main guys off the bench, Iguadala and Livingston, are still there. Right now, its three guys in a shooting slump at the same time.

Harrison Barnes was a starter and is gone, as is the starting center, Bogut, and the backup center. They gutted themselves on defense. Durant was filling a lot of the role and doing it well. I wish he played half that much defense in OKC.

Now I know the offense is struggling, but particularly in basketball it is very tough to separate the two. Less stops equals less rebounds equals more set defenses, not transition. How many 3s did we see last year on the break from Curry and Klay?

[cj]

Westbrook fan or not, this is a really good article.

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/18893454/the-driving-force-oklahoma-city-thunder-russell-westbrook

[lansdale]

Haven't been paying much attention to the NBA (except Embiid before his injury)since it looked like a pretty cut-and-dried post-season. However, it seems to me that the Durant injury and absence may have altered the Finals situation enough to create some betting value. GSW no longer looks like a mortal lock to face Cavs for the title, and I now give the Spurs a much better shot to win it all. Of course, Durant could come back in 100% shape, as I hope he does, but assuming he is able to return by the playoffs (and apparently there is no guarantee) if his game is off to a degree, it could cost Dubs the championship. If he doesn't return, I think they have no shot vs. Spurs -- they just depend too much on his game at this point.

Spurs were 8/1 a couple of days ago, now 6/1. Think betting Spurs here is not a bad play.

Re MVP -- looks like Harden, with all due respect to the great triple-double year of Westbrook. Don't remember any player on team not at least at close to the CF level winning it. Interesting factoid: in 13 out of the last 17 years, the player with the top WS/48 has taken the MVP. Right now that player is Kawhi Leonard, who has been given more shots in the last month or so and is averaging ca. 30 ppg during that time. Don't think his scoring average will be high enough by the end of the year to be competitive though.

[HoofedInTheChest]

Westbrook fan or not, this is a really good article.

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/18893454/the-driving-force-oklahoma-city-thunder-russell-westbrook

That was very well written, good piece.

The MVP is in town tonight, something to fall back on in case my Buds sh*t the bed again.

[Valuist]

Logically, the Big Ten looked bad this year. We will see how they do today. I remember a few years ago, the B10 looked awful, but somehow, come NCAA time, they showed up. Come to think of it, other than the ACC and Big 12, nobody is real impressive. Pac 12 is just too top heavy, same with Big East and SEC.

[thaskalos]

I am watching tonight's epic match-up between the Warriors and the Spurs...and it feels as if I am watching a pro-wrestling bout.

[thaskalos]

The NBA champion Cavs took a 26-point lead into the 4th quarter against the Hawks today, in Atlanta. Since math isn't my strong-suit...I am appealing to the mathematicians of this board:

What mathematical probability would you have assigned to the likelihood of Atlanta coming back and winning this game?

[cj]

OMG Russell Westbrook. 50, 16, 10 plus walk off 35 foot three pointer for the one point win. MVP.

[cj]

OMG Russell Westbrook. 50, 16, 10 plus walk off 35 foot three pointer for the one point win. MVP.

With 2:30 to go, the Thunder trailed by 10. Westbrook had 37 points and had completed his triple double to break the record. They trailed by 7 with a under minute to go and Denver had the ball. Russ scored the last 13 points in those 2:30, got the rebound that gave them a chance to win the game, then hit the game winner from around Boulder. You had to see it to believe it.

The best part was the crowd. The game was in Denver and when Westbrook hit the shot you'd have thought it was in OKC it was so loud. And the loss eliminated Denver from the playoffs. Russ is the People's Champion. :)

[thaskalos]

This "MVP" thing makes no sense at all...IMO. They should call it the "Player of the Year"...and be done with it. Since LeBron's return to Cleveland, the Cavs are 4-20 (.167) without him in the lineup...and NBA champions when he is on the floor. Cleveland is 0-5 without LeBron this year. Taking this into consideration...how is Westbrook "more valuable" than LeBron?

[cj]

This "MVP" thing makes no sense at all...IMO. They should call it the "Player of the Year"...and be done with it. Since LeBron's return to Cleveland, the Cavs are 4-20 (.167) without him in the lineup...and NBA champions when he is on the floor. Cleveland is 0-5 without LeBron this year. Taking this into consideration...how is Westbrook "more valuable" than LeBron?

The thing with that is when Lebron rests, usually so do the other stars. I say this as a diehard Thunder fan---Russ is playing with a terrible cast and the second youngest team in the league. Winning 46 games (possibly more) is an incredible feat. I guarantee the Thunder would be 0-whatever if Westbrook missed games. Luckily he hasn't missed any.

I do agree it should be "Player of the Year". That said, it is still Russell this year. His late game exploits have been off the charts good. He has hit a ton of late game, heroic shots. I read yesterday that without his game tying / game winning shots the Thunder would be 34-46 or something like that. I can't imagine anyone since MJ has hit so many huge late shots in the clutch, and I'm not even sure he did it in one season. Russ has been the best player this year in the league.


That said, Thask, we're all anxiously awaiting a comment about PA's line in the Carter thread. :)

[thaskalos]

That said, Thask, we're all anxiously awaiting a comment about PA's line in the Carter thread. :)

Yeah...I didn't respond because I wanted him to think that I missed that thread. :)

His selection method looks solid...but his math seems a little off. Maybe Cratos could lend him a hand in that regard...

[PaceAdvantage]

His selection method looks solid...Not so much after the last two days...:eek:

[cj]

Not so much after the last two days...:eek:


50-1 shots allow you a few off days.

[PaceAdvantage]

50-1 shots allow you a few off days.The 50-1 shot didn't count on the record I'm keeping in the selections forum...:eek:

[thaskalos]

The thing with that is when Lebron rests, usually so do the other stars. I say this as a diehard Thunder fan---Russ is playing with a terrible cast and the second youngest team in the league. Winning 46 games (possibly more) is an incredible feat. I guarantee the Thunder would be 0-whatever if Westbrook missed games. Luckily he hasn't missed any.

I do agree it should be "Player of the Year". That said, it is still Russell this year. His late game exploits have been off the charts good. He has hit a ton of late game, heroic shots. I read yesterday that without his game tying / game winning shots the Thunder would be 34-46 or something like that. I can't imagine anyone since MJ has hit so many huge late shots in the clutch, and I'm not even sure he did it in one season. Russ has been the best player this year in the league.


That said, Thask, we're all anxiously awaiting a comment about PA's line in the Carter thread. :)

Harden is making a pretty-strong case in protest to that.

[ReplayRandall]

Money-line dogs win 3 out of first 8 games, for a profit of +270 net, per $100 bet on all 8 dogs.

Winners

Bulls= +255

Jazz= +205

Bucks= +310

[thaskalos]

Money-line dogs win 3 out of first 8 games, for a profit of +270 net, per $100 bet on all 8 dogs.

Winners

Bulls= +255

Jazz= +205

Bucks= +310

Unfortunately...the bets must be made in advance.

[ReplayRandall]

Unfortunately...the bets must be made in advance.
Winners

Bulls= +255
04/16 12:48pm BOS-310 CHI+255

Jazz= +205
04/15 10:22am LAC-245 UTH+205

Bucks= +310
04/15 5:04pm TOR-380 MIL+310

[cj]

Harden is making a pretty-strong case in protest to that.

One, the votes are already in. Two, it is a team game and the Rockets are a better team.

[thaskalos]

One, the votes are already in. Two, it is a team game and the Rockets are a better team.

Haven't you stated on this board that we shouldn't "fall in love" with the best player of an average team? Shouldn't this also apply to Russell Westbrook? How difficult is it to "shine bright" on the court...when no one else on your team can shoot the ball?

Russell is a great player, and he had a phenomenal year...statistically speaking. But Harden elevates the performance of his entire TEAM...and that's the true meaning behind the term "MVP"...IMO.

[cj]

Haven't you stated on this board that we shouldn't "fall in love" with the best player of an average team? Shouldn't this also apply to Russell Westbrook? How difficult is it to "shine bright" on the court...when no one else on your team can shoot the ball?

Russell is a great player, and he had a phenomenal year...statistically speaking. But Harden elevates the performance of his entire TEAM...and that's the true meaning behind the term "MVP"...IMO.

I've always said on a bad team, not average.

If you swapped the two players, I doubt either team's record would change much, but I still think Russ is a better player overall.

[cj]

Article about Enes Kanter. He talks a lot about Russ. He says a lot of things better than I can.

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/enes-kanter-russell-westbrook-nba-mvp-2017/

[thaskalos]

Article about Enes Kanter. He talks a lot about Russ. He says a lot of things better than I can.

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/enes-kanter-russell-westbrook-nba-mvp-2017/

To be fair, this isn't an article ABOUT Enes Kanter; It's an article BY Enes Kanter. I mean...what did you expect the guy to say? That Westbrook is a SHOW-OFF...as well as a great player?

Earlier this year, with the Warriors destroying the Thunder by 30 rather late in the game, in Oklahoma...Russell got into a little roll -- and cut the Warrior lead to 18 points. "I'm coming...I'm coming"...he yelled back at Durant...even as the game remained well out of reach. Why didn't he say "WE are coming"...since this is, as you said earlier, a "team game"?

[cj]

To be fair, this isn't an article ABOUT Enes Kanter; It's an article BY Enes Kanter. I mean...what did you expect the guy to say? That Westbrook is a SHOW-OFF...as well as a great player?

Earlier this year, with the Warriors destroying the Thunder by 30 rather late in the game, in Oklahoma...Russell got into a little roll -- and cut the Warrior lead to 18 points. "I'm coming...I'm coming"...he yelled back at Durant...even as the game remained well out of reach. Why didn't he say "WE are coming"...since this is, as you said earlier, a "team game"?

Overanalyze much? His teammates love him. If they didn't, you'd hear about it. This isn't college. Players speak their mind all the time. The point is he makes the players around him better too, they just aren't as good. The Thunder are the second youngest team in the playoffs. They did the best they could given the Durant departure. I think they'll build a better team around him in the next year. If they don't, he'll leave, and I don't blame him.

I guess I just don't get all the Russ hate. He really is a great guy. He is a family man off the court that doesn't cause any problems. He is a great locker room guy. He is fabulous on the court. What more do people want? He isn't the GM. If you put him in Harden's place the Rockets would be every bit as good or better than they are now. It's not like Russ isn't a willing passer. We're talking about a guy that had 22 assists one game this year and several with 15+. He'd have a lot more if he weren't surrounded by bricklayers. His late game play has been HISTORICALLY good.

For the record I've been a Westbrook guy since the beginning. He gives everything he has when he is on the floor. I respect that a lot. I think he has earned everything he has coming to him after the season.

[thaskalos]

Overanalyze much? His teammates love him. If they didn't, you'd hear about it. This isn't college. Players speak their mind all the time. The point is he makes the players around him better too, they just aren't as good. The Thunder are the second youngest team in the playoffs. They did the best they could given the Durant departure. I think they'll build a better team around him in the next year. If they don't, he'll leave, and I don't blame him.

I guess I just don't get all the Russ hate. He really is a great guy. He is a family man off the court that doesn't cause any problems. He is a great locker room guy. He is fabulous on the court. What more do people want? He isn't the GM. If you put him in Harden's place the Rockets would be every bit as good or better than they are now. It's not like Russ isn't a willing passer. We're talking about a guy that had 22 assists one game this year and several with 15+. He'd have a lot more if he weren't surrounded by bricklayers. His late game play has been HISTORICALLY good.

For the record I've been a Westbrook guy since the beginning. He gives everything he has when he is on the floor. I respect that a lot. I think he has earned everything he has coming to him after the season.

In my case, it isn't "Russ hate"; it's this constant talk about the "triple-doubles"...that seem to take precedence over the overall performance of the Thunder team.

Early March, and the Thunder have lost 4 in a row...to the likes of Portland, Phoenix, Dallas, and Portland again. But, leading the action on SportsCenter is Russell and his triple-double streak...which has him leading the MVP race -- in spite of his team's erratic play.

The Thunder lose by 24 to the Suns in a HORRIBLE performance on April 7th...but SO WHAT! Russell sealed the season-average triple-double "historic achievement" in that game, so, SportsCenter isolates on THAT...and the terrible beat-down handed to them by a mediocre opponent is barely even mentioned during the telecast. :rolleyes:

Before this season started, The Thunder were predicted to win 45 games this year...while the Rockets were predicted to win 41 games. I think Las Vegas had the Thunder as a 10-1 pre-season pick to win this year's NBA title, while the Rockets were listed at 60-1 odds. But Harden still can't get the credit that he deserves for his team's meteoric rise this year, because, all of a sudden...Harden is surrounded by the "better supporting cast". No longer is anybody talking about what the Rockets' realistic expectations were headed into this season.

Russell's "historic" triple-double streak has garnered all the media attention this year...and has eclipsed his team's erratic play. And it has also eclipsed what Harden has managed to accomplish in Houston. Harden has turned a rank outsider into a legitimate title-contender this year...and that's what the "MVP" award should be mainly about, IMO.

[cj]

I would say those were horrible lines more than representative of the true ability the players. I also your Thunder line is off, at least after KD left.

[ronsmac]

In my case, it isn't "Russ hate"; it's this constant talk about the "triple-doubles"...that seem to take precedence over the overall performance of the Thunder team.

Early March, and the Thunder have lost 4 in a row...to the likes of Portland, Phoenix, Dallas, and Portland again. But, leading the action on SportsCenter is Russell and his triple-double streak...which has him leading the MVP race -- in spite of his team's erratic play.

The Thunder lose by 24 to the Suns in a HORRIBLE performance on April 7th...but SO WHAT! Russell sealed the season-average triple-double "historic achievement" in that game, so, SportsCenter isolates on THAT...and the terrible beat-down handed to them by a mediocre opponent is barely even mentioned during the telecast. :rolleyes:

Before this season started, The Thunder were predicted to win 45 games this year...while the Rockets were predicted to win 41 games. I think Las Vegas had the Thunder as a 10-1 pre-season pick to win this year's NBA title, while the Rockets were listed at 60-1 odds. But Harden still can't get the credit that he deserves for his team's meteoric rise this year, because, all of a sudden...Harden is surrounded by the "better supporting cast". No longer is anybody talking about what the Rockets' realistic expectations were headed into this season.

Russell's "historic" triple-double streak has garnered all the media attention this year...and has eclipsed his team's erratic play. And it has also eclipsed what Harden has managed to accomplish in Houston. Harden has turned a rank outsider into a legitimate title-contender this year...and that's what the "MVP" award should be mainly about, IMO.
I can't believe OKC was 10-1 without Durant. What would they have been with him 3-1? And if they were predicted to only win 45 games that would make them like a 40-1 shot.

[thaskalos]

http://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/16176731/nba-2017-nba-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/vegas-releases-2016-17-nba-season-overunder-win-totals-for-every-team/

[ronsmac]

http://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/16176731/nba-2017-nba-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/vegas-releases-2016-17-nba-season-overunder-win-totals-for-every-team/
I'm probably being generous. The 45 wins may have equaled 50-1. 8-1 with Durant was still too low.

[cj]

http://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/16176731/nba-2017-nba-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/vegas-releases-2016-17-nba-season-overunder-win-totals-for-every-team/

Those opening odds were before Durant left. They would have been much lower if he were known to be staying, and much, much higher if know to be leaving. The Jazz, for example, were predicted to win more games and were 80-1.

[thaskalos]

I'm probably being generous. The 45 wins may have equaled 50-1. 8-1 with Durant was still too low.

They should hire you as a Vegas odds-maker.

[thaskalos]

Those opening odds were before Durant left. They would have been much lower if he were known to be staying, and much, much higher if know to be leaving. The Jazz, for example, were predicted to win more games and were 80-1.

Durant's leaving was mentioned in the over/under article...and the Thunder were still predicted to win 45.5 games.

[cj]

Durant's leaving was mentioned in the over/under article...and the Thunder were still predicted to win 45.5 games.

Right, but there is no way that is an 8-1 shot for the title as Ron mentioned. I'd also say they were projected to win that many only because of Russell Westbrook.

[thaskalos]

Right, but there is no way that is an 8-1 shot for the title as Ron mentioned. I'd also say they were projected to win that many only because of Russell Westbrook.

As we all know, the preseason odds are not necessarily the odds-makers' own opinion on what will actually occur on the court. The odds are always shaded towards the more "popular" teams, and players. I brought all this up in order to show that the Rockets were not really considered to be a better team than the Thunder going into this season...although it played out that way this year. Even with the departure of Durant...the vast majority of the NBA "authorities" were predicting a better year for the Thunder than for the Rockets at the beginning of this season...preseason odds aside.

No matter how you slice it...the Rockets overachieved to a much greater extent than the Thunder did this year...and Harden was the reason. Consequently...I can't see how the MVP race can be as "cut-and-dried" as it seems to be. Westbrook's performance this year, although "historically" significant...did not affect the performance of his team to the extent that Harden's did. And that's what the "MVP" should be about...IMO.

If the award were called "NBA Player of the Year"...then it would imply more of an "individual achievement"...and Westbrook would be the clear choice. But "MVP" brings the team aspect into the conversation...and Harden wins in that comparison, IMO.

[cj]

As we all know, the preseason odds are not necessarily the odds-makers' own opinion on what will actually occur on the court. The odds are always shaded towards the more "popular" teams, and players. I brought all this up in order to show that the Rockets were not really considered to be a better team than the Thunder going into this season...although it played out that way this year. Even with the departure of Durant...the vast majority of the NBA "authorities" were predicting a better year for the Thunder than for the Rockets at the beginning of this season...preseason odds aside.

No matter how you slice it...the Rockets overachieved to a much greater extent than the Thunder did this year...and Harden was the reason. Consequently...I can't see how the MVP race can be as "cut-and-dried" as it seems to be. Westbrook's performance this year, although "historically" significant...did not affect the performance of his team to the extent that Harden's did. And that's what the "MVP" should be about...IMO.

If the award were called "NBA Player of the Year"...then it would imply more of an "individual achievement"...and Westbrook would be the clear choice. But "MVP" brings the team aspect into the conversation...and Harden wins in that comparison, IMO.

I guess that is where we disagree. I don't think Westbrook should be punished because Vegas thought OKC would win a few more games. Harden is a fabulous player, no doubt about it. But as I've said before, switch the two and I don't think either team changes much. All that changes is Russ probably leads the league in assists and Harden leads the league in scoring. The Thunder were the worst three point shooting team in the NBA. If you remove both from their teams, the Rockets are a MUCH better team. That, and of course the history, gives a slight edge to Russ for me. What gives him a bigger edge is he was a way, way better player in clutch time than Harden was. It isn't even close.

[ReplayRandall]

Imagine if Westbrook, Harden and Durant were on the same team, how many championships would they win?-----ZERO.

Or maybe if they each played on a different team?-----ZERO(so far)

All the individual talent in the world, and yet it all boils down to playing as a TEAM that wins Championships.....

[cj]

Imagine if Westbrook, Harden and Durant were on the same team, how many championships would they win?-----ZERO.

Or maybe if they each played on a different team?-----ZERO(so far)

All the individual talent in the world, and yet it all boils down to playing as a TEAM that wins Championships.....

Stars usually win championships. The more, the better. Teamwork only gets you so far.

[ReplayRandall]

Stars usually win championships. The more, the better. Teamwork only gets you so far.
Not the stars of the OKC Thunder, past and present.....Maybe it was all Coach Brooks' fault....:popcorn:

[HoofedInTheChest]

All the individual talent in the world, and yet it all boils down to playing as a TEAM that wins Championships.....
LeBron plays as a team?

[cj]

Not the stars of the OKC Thunder, past and present.....Maybe it was all Coach Brooks' fault....:popcorn:

They were too young when together, then injuries detailed a few seasons. They're certainly good enough.

[ReplayRandall]

LeBron plays as a team?
Didn't win crap until he went to Miami and DWade taught him how to win as a TEAM......Took what he learned back to Cleveland, who assembled a good supporting cast in his absence, and won it all there as well....

[cj]

Watch OKC when Russ sits. That is all you need to know about his cast.

[thaskalos]

From the looks of things...it doesn't seem like Russell will stay in Oklahoma for long.

[cj]

From the looks of things...it doesn't seem like Russell will stay in Oklahoma for long.

Tough to say at this point. I wouldn't blame him if he wants to go. He is getting to the point where he might not survive a rebuild.

[thaskalos]

Tough to say at this point. I wouldn't blame him if he wants to go. He is getting to the point where he might not survive a rebuild.

After watching the last Thunder game in its entirety...I must say that you were right, and I was dead wrong. Without Westbrook on the floor...the Thunder is the worst team in the league.

[Valuist]

Rondo out with a broken thumb. This isn't going to be easy for the Bulls to overcome. I see Boston giving Grant any open shot he wants, and they spend more work on defending Butler and Wade. Grant a career 30% 3 point shooter will get all the open looks he wants.

[cj]

After watching the last Thunder game in its entirety...I must say that you were right, and I was dead wrong. Without Westbrook on the floor...the Thunder is the worst team in the league.

They might beat the Nets in a best of 7. It would be close.

[Valuist]

I have trouble watching a Houston game. Between all of Harden's flopping, and the 4 steps to the basket without a dribble, its not what I want to watch. There's always been an issue with "borderline" traveling calls, but the league has to put a stop to the "Euro Step" nonsense. What is the point of having rules if they are blatantly neglected?

[ronsmac]

Hopefully they implement the Harden rule next year. His scoring average drop by 5 points if they do.

[cj]

Hopefully they implement the Harden rule next year. His scoring average drop by 5 points if they do.

I'm pretty sure it is going to happen. These dribbling into guys and heaving up shots you would never shoot aren't going to be called next year IMO. We'll see. I won't keep paying to watch that crap. It isn't just Harden either. They're all doing it now. He just does it the most / best. His whole game is built around deceiving officials.

[Valuist]

Kawhi out for tonight's game at Houston. Pop wants him 100% for game 7.

[cj]

Kawhi out for tonight's game at Houston. Pop wants him 100% for game 7.

The way it is going tonight he is resting him for Game 1 against the Warriors.

[ReplayRandall]

James Harden is done.....No team will ever win a championship with him on the roster.

[cj]

James Harden is done.....No team will ever win a championship with him on the roster.

The Bulls won titles with 85 year old, pot smoking Robert Parrish on the roster. It is a team game. If you swapped him for Steph Curry, you don't think the Warriors would win?

I'm no fan of Harden's flopping and antics, but he is a top 10 player in the NBA and I think he could certainly win a title. It just takes a lot to make the stars align. Twelve of the 30 franchises have never won a title, and seven have never even played for one.

The way the league is now only two teams can possibly win, and probably this year only one. Many GREAT players never won a title. Many more great ones from this era won't win one either.

[cj]

Funny, at least I thought so.

[ReplayRandall]

I'm no fan of Harden's flopping and antics, but he is a top 10 player in the NBA and I think he could certainly win a title.
Nope, just like Melo and DHoward, he won't win crap.....Losers for life who aren't worth a damn, throwing away immense talent by being selfish, me-me-me type players who will foul-up any team's chemistry with championship hopes.

[thaskalos]

Nope, just like Melo and DHoward, he won't win crap.....Losers for life who aren't worth a damn, throwing away immense talent by being selfish, me-me-me type players who will foul-up any team's chemistry with championship hopes.

Come on...you are being too hard on Harden. Houston wasn't winning the title this year...no matter WHAT Harden did on the floor. This isn't the year for you to make this sort of statement...IMO.

[cj]

Nope, just like Melo and DHoward, he won't win crap.....Losers for life who aren't worth a damn, throwing away immense talent by being selfish, me-me-me type players who will foul-up any team's chemistry with championship hopes.

He is playing exactly like D'Antoni wants him to play. That is his system. Harden is actually not a selfish player in my opinion. He is not as athletically gifted as many of the stars of today and has worked really hard to get where he is, so I wouldn't say he is throwing anything away.

Just my opinion of course, but I'm no Harden fan so I'd like to think I'm not biased in his favor.

[ReplayRandall]

Come on...you are being too hard on Harden. Houston wasn't winning the title this year...no matter WHAT Harden did on the floor. This isn't the year for you to make this sort of statement...IMO.
I didn't make this statement for "the year", I made it for his whole career....:ThmbDown:

[thaskalos]

I didn't make this statement for "the year", I made it for his whole career....:ThmbDown:

Okay Randall...you are absolutely right. Harden is a ball-hog...and he SUCKS! :ThmbUp:

[ReplayRandall]

Okay Randall...you are absolutely right. Harden is a ball-hog...and he SUCKS! :ThmbUp:
Now you got it.....What took you so long you stubborn Greek?...:cool:

[thaskalos]

Now you got it.....What took you so long you stubborn Greek?...:cool:

I can't wait to run into you...so I could put you over my knee. :kiss:

[ReplayRandall]

I can't wait to run into you...so I could put you over my knee. :kiss:
AHHHH.....The Greeks and their fetishes..:faint:

[EasyGoer89]

Funny, at least I thought so.

You weren't alone :lol:

[lansdale]

A couple of months back, I posted that Spurs might have some EV in this series if KD didn't return or was less than 100%, but it looks as though he's at full strength, and Warriors have dominated in post-season. So much for that idea. There now appears to be less excitment about who will advance than speculation about whether the Spurs can win one game. Think the reality is somewhere in between, but Warriors are without question an historically great team.

I think the Spurs are somewhat better without TP, and the last game vs. Rockets demonstrated the improvement of their young bench guys. J. Simmons is a v.g. backcourt defender, and he should get some heavy burn in this series - will be interesting to see if he can put any kind of dent in Curry's game. I think Kawhi will also win the match-up vs. KD; KD has never played as well in the post-season as during the RS -- we'll see if that holds true again here. But, in general, think Dubs just have too much firepower for anyone to contain. As far as betting -- think Spurs will win game 3 ATS (as home team usually does) and possibly game 4. Warriors, I am sure, will be looking to complete the 16-0 playoff sweep. Not impossible.

[PhantomOnTour]

I don't watch much basketball, but to my eyes, the Spurs play defense and have better athletes than Golden State...and they have the coach.

Spurs in six

[cj]

Totally dirty, bush league play by Zaza today that will ensure the Warriors win. I guess he's been taking lessons from the nut kicker.

[ReplayRandall]

Kawhi shows his class in interview, says Zaza's actions were not intentional......at 45 second mark:

https://youtu.be/6JoKgkrJUYw

[cj]

He said it, but I bet he doesn't believe. If Zaza did that on the playground where I grew up he better be ready to fight. That is a big no no.

[justonlineslots]

I'm a warriors fan and after that play where Kawhi got hurt the Spurs have been getting destroyed.

[cj]

I'm a warriors fan and after that play where Kawhi got hurt the Spurs have been getting destroyed.

Did you expect them to get better with Kawhi out?

[lansdale]

Tough break for Spurs re Kawhi. Since he's out tonight, think he's out for the series -- if they lose tonight, as likely, the series is over. I'm guessing Pop believes that they had to win Game 1 to have any chance at all. I'm sure he's looking at the long run, and protecting Kawhi as the future of the franchise.

Re Zaza, generally agree he's a dirty player, but he was called for a foul on that play -- nothing really unusual in his action, which is not that uncommon for a corner close-out. And Kawhi is now saying that he had really reinjured the ankle a few plays earlier stepping on D. Lee's foot. Also, the original sprain had come only a week earlier vs. Rockets. So, difficult to blame Zaza for the whole deal. Even though he's still fairly young, Kawhi has had various chronic nagging injuries which may continue to plague him in his career.

Overall, somewhat disappointing in that the Kawhi thing has pretty much killed the one remaining team that might have given the Dubs some competition -- they should sweep the Cavs. Can't remember seeing such little interest in the NBA championship from longtime fans. Possibly Silver is contemplating injecting the Cavs with some post--season zebra steroids to boost ratings ;-).

[justonlineslots]

No I didn't expect them to do any better w/out Kawhi.

W/ or without Kawhi Warriors were going to win the series.

[Valuist]

Get ready for the I-80 series version 3.0.

[ronsmac]

After one of the most uninteresting Springs ever, lackluster Derby and Preakness, uncompetitive playoffs, boring baseball, someone did tell me they're playing hockey somewhere. Now we have the matchup we knew we would see again 12 months ago. Let's hope it lives up to the hype.

[ReplayRandall]

After one of the most uninteresting Springs ever, lackluster Derby and Preakness, uncompetitive playoffs, boring baseball, someone did tell me they're playing hockey somewhere. Now we have the matchup we knew we would see again 12 months ago. Let's hope it lives up to the hype.

Sorry, but this series will be boring as well---->Warriors in 5

[cj]

I have less interest in this than the Finals of any other major sport in a long, long time.

[thaskalos]

Sorry, but this series will be boring as well---->Warriors in 5

The team that beat the Celtics by 48 points IN BOSTON, isn't good enough to make this a close series? I don't buy it. IMO...the Cavs have turned it up several notches in the playoffs...and this series will be a lot closer than most people think. I see a 7th game on the horizon.

[ReplayRandall]

The team that beat the Celtics by 48 points IN BOSTON, isn't good enough to make this a close series? I don't buy it. IMO...the Cavs have turned it up several notches in the playoffs...and this series will be a lot closer than most people think. I see a 7th game on the horizon.

My response is still the same...:sleeping::sleeping:

[thaskalos]

My response is still the same...:sleeping::sleeping:

Would you give me the Cavs +7 tonight?

[ReplayRandall]

Would you give me the Cavs +7 tonight?

I don't play spreads, money-line only.....

[thaskalos]

I don't play spreads, money-line only.....

Ok...give me the Cavs +270 then.

[ReplayRandall]

Ok...give me the Cavs +270 then.

I don't take money from friends, even when they're trying to give it away...;)

[Valuist]

Warriors in 5. I will be shocked if Cleveland can muster two wins. Warriors are the best team since the Jordan Bulls.

[Valuist]

The team that beat the Celtics by 48 points IN BOSTON, isn't good enough to make this a close series? I don't buy it. IMO...the Cavs have turned it up several notches in the playoffs...and this series will be a lot closer than most people think. I see a 7th game on the horizon.

Boston may have been the worst #1 seed ever. If Rondo doesn't get hurt, the Celtics go down to the Bulls.

The Cavaliers are stepping up from a NW2X to a Grade 1. They are in the deep end now.

[ronsmac]

Warriors in 5. I will be shocked if Cleveland can muster two wins. Warriors are the best team since the Jordan Bulls.
Maybe better. 4 guys who've been all nba in the last 2 years. I'm not 100% sure but I think they're the only team with 2 regular seasons mvps on the same team that are still in their 20s since the 76-77 Sixers.

[Robert Fischer]

careful betting on a short series
The NBA is an ad-revenue vehicle.

Not saying that the finals will be manipulated to go at least 6 games, but the reality of the incentives does exist.

Game 6 is worth about 35-45 million in ad revenue, just to ABC spots (not counting endless value carryover into endorsements and value to the sponsors who buy the ads).

Game 7, roughly 40-50.

The league has been a bit anti-climactic lately, as top heavy as it is, and also 'feels'.

Ronsmac said it best:
After one of the most uninteresting Springs ever, lackluster Derby and Preakness, uncompetitive playoffs, boring baseball, someone did tell me they're playing hockey somewhere. Now we have the matchup we knew we would see again 12 months ago. Let's hope it lives up to the hype.
Let's hope we get our money's worth.

[Inner Dirt]

I see the Warriors 4-2, but I thought the Warriors who I bet on last year were home free up 3-1. I think Durant is the big difference, I have seen him carry the Warriors during rare periods where Curry and Thompson are both throwing bricks.

[Valuist]

careful betting on a short series
The NBA is an ad-revenue vehicle.

Not saying that the finals will be manipulated to go at least 6 games, but the reality of the incentives does exist.

Game 6 is worth about 35-45 million in ad revenue, just to ABC spots (not counting endless value carryover into endorsements and value to the sponsors who buy the ads).

Game 7, roughly 40-50.

The league has been a bit anti-climactic lately, as top heavy as it is, and also 'feels'.

Ronsmac said it best:

Let's hope we get our money's worth.

I'm afraid to say you may be right, but I think outside "help" and/or injuries are the only way Cleveland can hang in the series.

[ronsmac]

So far not so good.

[Inner Dirt]

Watching that I think my 4-2 Golden State was far too hopeful looks like 4-0 or 4-1, unless Durant gets goes down injured.

[ronsmac]

Watching that I think my 4-2 Golden State was far too hopeful looks like 4-0 or 4-1, unless Durant gets goes down injured.They already have the highest margin of victory in playoff history thus far. If they cap it off and go 16-0, I'd say they're the best team ever. Cavs need a miracle.

[Valuist]

Everyone knows about the Warriors offensive skills but they are a very good defensive team as well. The Cavs looked good against weak defensive teams like Boston and Indiana but now they are in the deep end of the pool. Points per possession is more significant than points allowed per game, especially when a team plays at a fast pace like Golden State.

Last year was a mirage. The Warriors wore themselves out between the search for 73 wins and the OKC series. Add Durant to that team? As one who was in Chicago for the entire Jordan run, is this team as good? Maybe. Definitely more explosive and entertaining.

[burnsy]

I see the Warriors 4-2, but I thought the Warriors who I bet on last year were home free up 3-1. I think Durant is the big difference, I have seen him carry the Warriors during rare periods where Curry and Thompson are both throwing bricks.

Agree with all of that. KD healthy, is a force that can't be reckoned with on a team like that. When they spread the floor and he comes down the lane, no one can deal with that, the man is an incredible human athlete at that size. The Cleveland defense had no answer......and looked intimidated. When he's healthy, he's as good as anyone, including LeBron. Cleveland better adjust and act fast or this is history.

[cj]

Agree with all of that. KD healthy, is a force that can't be reckoned with on a team like that. When they spread the floor and he comes down the lane, no one can deal with that, the man is an incredible human athlete at that size. The Cleveland defense had no answer......and looked intimidated. When he's healthy, he's as good as anyone, including LeBron. Cleveland better adjust and act fast or this is history.

KD is obviously a great player, but having watched the last couple years closely he is no LeBron. Of course he looks extra great on the Warriors. He is playing on an all star team wher the other team can't focus on him. KD struggles when he has to deal with strong defenders and the floor isn't spaced. He still isn't strong like LeBron and needs others to help.

That is exactly why he struggled so much in late game situations in OKC. He's too tall to dribble in traffic and he can't get to the hole, just doesn't have the strength. Had the Thunder not relied on him every time in late game situations and given the ball to Russ, they would have won more games and maybe a title. Russ showed that this year. He is a closer. KD isn't, but on the Warriors he doesn't have to be.

[Valuist]

KD is obviously a great player, but having watched the last couple years closely he is no LeBron. Of course he looks extra great on the Warriors. He is playing on an all star team wher the other team can't focus on him. KD struggles when he has to deal with strong defenders and the floor isn't spaced. He still isn't strong like LeBron and needs others to help.

That is exactly why he struggled so much in late game situations in OKC. He's too tall to dribble in traffic and he can't get to the hole, just doesn't have the strength. Had the Thunder not relied on him every time in late game situations and given the ball to Russ, they would have won more games and maybe a title. Russ showed that this year. He is a closer. KD isn't, but on the Warriors he doesn't have to be.

It's funny because out here, people say Curry doesn't have to be the closer because of KD.

[cj]

It's funny because out here, people say Curry doesn't have to be the closer because of KD.

LOL, when do they ever have to close? They're always up by 30.

[burnsy]

Really? Because from where I'm sitting KD just ran a clinic tonight. Was the best player on the court.........again. Shots and plays that changed the momentum through out the game.

What defense? They have none.

[Valuist]

Really? Because from where I'm sitting KD just ran a clinic tonight. Was the best player on the court.........again. Shots and plays that changed the momentum through out the game.

What defense? They have none.

I agree 100%. I also knew he was a great player, but getting to see him on a game in, game out basis, he's better than I thought.

Paul Pierce after the game: "He (Durant) may just be the best player in the world."

[cj]

Really? Because from where I'm sitting KD just ran a clinic tonight. Was the best player on the court.........again. Shots and plays that changed the momentum through out the game.

What defense? They have none.

If you switched KD with LeBron, the Warriors would be even better. It is a team game and KD is on the MUCH better team. The Cavs, if you switch the two, might not get out of the East.

[burnsy]

If you switched KD with LeBron, the Warriors would be even better. It is a team game and KD is on the MUCH better team. The Cavs, if you switch the two, might not get out of the East.

LeBron does not play defense like him so far. The Warriors are shooting like 63% over him...........KD, 5 blocks last night and he does not give up crap. Plus, when it comes to shooting the ball, the only one shooting better is his teammate Mr. Curry. Golden State is the better team and right now, no one is playing better than KD. When that game got close he kept sticking the knife in Cleveland's back and he did it multiple times.

[cj]

LeBron does not play defense like him so far. The Warriors are shooting like 63% over him...........KD, 5 blocks last night and he does not give up crap. Plus, when it comes to shooting the ball, the only one shooting better is his teammate Mr. Curry. Golden State is the better team and right now, no one is playing better than KD. When that game got close he kept sticking the knife in Cleveland's back and he did it multiple times.

KD is a better defender? Come on.

Like I said, switch the two and it is a bigger mismatch. KD is obviously a great player, but when you are surrounded by a bunch of other all stars and another top 50 all time player, things are a lot easier.

Kyrie sure has shrunk up this series so far.

[Valuist]

KD is a better defender? Come on.

Like I said, switch the two and it is a bigger mismatch. KD is obviously a great player, but when you are surrounded by a bunch of other all stars and another top 50 all time player, things are a lot easier.

Kyrie sure has shrunk up this series so far.

At this stage of Lebron's career, KD is a much better defender. How about the graphic showing when a Warrior is guarded by Lebron, they are shooting 63% from the field?

Lebron had an amazing first half last night, but Cleveland made a mistake trying to run with the Warriors. By the second half, they were completely spent. LBJ probably still is the best player in the game, but the extra 200 games over the past 7 years has taken its toll and the gap between him and the other top players has lessened.

[cj]

At this stage of Lebron's career, KD is a much better defender. How about the graphic showing when a Warrior is guarded by Lebron, they are shooting 63% from the field?

Lebron had an amazing first half last night, but Cleveland made a mistake trying to run with the Warriors. By the second half, they were completely spent. LBJ probably still is the best player in the game, but the extra 200 games over the past 7 years has taken its toll and the gap between him and the other top players has lessened.

I think LeBron is trying to do too much so he is exhausted. He also tries to help too much on defense. It isn't like the Warriors are running isos to get somebody matched up on LeBron.

I'll stick by my point, if you switch the two players Cleveland might not make it out of the east, and the Warriors might not ever lose a game. You are right that the gap has lessened. That is why Cleveland (and any other team) has zero chance, and have been saying so since July 4th.

[ace4win]

Lebron James is the game changers for Cavs, somebody should help him for them to win game 3. :popcorn:

[Robert Fischer]

Cleveland will be a home underdog.

Under 226?

[lansdale]

These are two of the greatest hoops players we'll ever have the privilege of watching -- so somewhat silly imho, but maybe inevitable that the perennial argument about who's the true alpha. I've posted a link of all their head to head games below -- one interesting perspective on this pair., because I believe we can assume that these two were checking each other most of the time in these games. I think this summary tells us what we already know -- these two players are very close in ability, although LBJ is often thought to be an order of magnitude better. Their reg. season scoring and rebounding is almost identical, and LBJ is a better passer. In the post season, KD is the better shooter and scorer, and LBJ's rebounding picks up over the reg. season, as we know.

Re KD in this series, he's outplaying LBJ, but not by much. Worth remembering that LBJ, at 32, is now a couple of years past his prime -- we can all see the decline in vertical lift, speed, and stamina. KD, at 28, is in his prime, at the peak of his career. Also, as cj pointed out, on such a stacked team, KD is much less pressured -- when before in his career did you ever seem get open looks, or passes for easy dunks in the lane -- never. For the same reason, he's also playing fewer minutes, and thus has greater reserves of energy throughout the game. OTOH, LBJ, is forced to expend huge amounts of energy, and he's clearly been gassed by the second half of both these games. Despite all, he's still playing at an amazingly high level.

So who is better? At this point, as pure player, KD is better -- he led the league in WS/48, the best overall indicator of the contribution a player makes to winning. But if you asked the question 'who do you want with the ball in his hands at crunch time' , that would have to be LBJ, whose hoops IQ is much higher. One of the best aspects of KD's move to GSW is that he rarely has to make any important decisions with the ball, (maybe the weakest part of his game) since Curry and DG do such a great job.

Wish this were a real series, but still great to be able to watch some spectacular play.





http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Kevin+Durant&player_id1_select=Kevin+Durant&player_id1=duranke01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=LeBron+James&player_id2_select=LeBron+James&player_id2=jamesle01&idx=players

[ace4win]

Game 3, and Cleveland Cavaliers has a lot of things to do so that they can win this one. :popcorn:

[cj]

These are two of the greatest hoops players we'll ever have the privilege of watching -- so somewhat silly imho, but maybe inevitable that the perennial argument about who's the true alpha. I've posted a link of all their head to head games below -- one interesting perspective on this pair., because I believe we can assume that these two were checking each other most of the time in these games. I think this summary tells us what we already know -- these two players are very close in ability, although LBJ is often thought to be an order of magnitude better. Their reg. season scoring and rebounding is almost identical, and LBJ is a better passer. In the post season, KD is the better shooter and scorer, and LBJ's rebounding picks up over the reg. season, as we know.

Re KD in this series, he's outplaying LBJ, but not by much. Worth remembering that LBJ, at 32, is now a couple of years past his prime -- we can all see the decline in vertical lift, speed, and stamina. KD, at 28, is in his prime, at the peak of his career. Also, as cj pointed out, on such a stacked team, KD is much less pressured -- when before in his career did you ever seem get open looks, or passes for easy dunks in the lane -- never. For the same reason, he's also playing fewer minutes, and thus has greater reserves of energy throughout the game. OTOH, LBJ, is forced to expend huge amounts of energy, and he's clearly been gassed by the second half of both these games. Despite all, he's still playing at an amazingly high level.

So who is better? At this point, as pure player, KD is better -- he led the league in WS/48, the best overall indicator of the contribution a player makes to winning. But if you asked the question 'who do you want with the ball in his hands at crunch time' , that would have to be LBJ, whose hoops IQ is much higher. One of the best aspects of KD's move to GSW is that he rarely has to make any important decisions with the ball, (maybe the weakest part of his game) since Curry and DG do such a great job.

Wish this were a real series, but still great to be able to watch some spectacular play.





http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Kevin+Durant&player_id1_select=Kevin+Durant&player_id1=duranke01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=LeBron+James&player_id2_select=LeBron+James&player_id2=jamesle01&idx=players

I know for sure that most of the games in OKC Durant did not guard LeBron very often. That was left to Thabo Sefalosha and later Andre Roberson.

[ace4win]

That was intense game 3, Cavs almost beat GSW but Kevin Durant is unstoppable in creating points. :popcorn:

[burnsy]

That was intense game 3, Cavs almost beat GSW but Kevin Durant is unstoppable in creating points. :popcorn:

Agreed, they can argue all they want (about who is better)...............KD stuck a fork in them, they are done. He just beat the crap out of them 3 nights in a row, including one on the road coming from behind.

MVP!

[cj]

Agreed, they can argue all they want (about who is better)...............KD stuck a fork in them, they are done. He just beat the crap out of them 3 nights in a row, including one on the road coming from behind.

MVP!

KD is obviously a great player.

If you switch the two, the Cavs wouldn't be close in any game. That is my point, not trying to knock KD. I always despised LeBron simply because OKC couldn't beat him, but I've learned to appreciate how great he is. They win that game easily if anyone besides him or JR Smith could have made a 3.

[ElKabong]

I have less interest in this than the Finals of any other major sport in a long, long time.

same here, haven't watched one second of this year's Finals. Usually my wife and I are glued to the semis and finals. It's a poor product for the public to consume today, from an entertainment standpoint. Same teams, over and over. One team loses in the finals, they just go get the best player available. No other teams stand much of a chance in the end

[lansdale]

I know for sure that most of the games in OKC Durant did not guard LeBron very often. That was left to Thabo Sefalosha and later Andre Roberson.

Thanks for the heads-up on this -- also makes sense that they would try to spare KD the banging, given LBJ's serious advantage in upper-body strength. But I don't think it really affects my overall argument, that Durant is still underrated by a lot of fans, and especially those who only follow pro hoops during the post-season. And as far as the average stats of these two from these games, they're pretty Bayesian -- amazingingly predictive of their lifetime overall stats:

LBJ - 27.1/7.3/7

KD - 27.2/7.1/3.8

Again, another point re these two -- these scoring averages are way out on the end of the distribution tail -- they're #4 and #5 all time.


Re your idea that a player swap would demonstrate the superiority of LBJ -- of course, it would hurt Cavs more, since the whole team is built around him. Without him, they have negligible playmaking -- Kyrie is horrible on the point. Move Kyrie to the 2, put a competent 7-assist pg at the 1, then switch LBJ and KD, and no one would notice the difference.

One thing that also struck me in comparing these two that I haven't seen much in the press, is that Durant has spent his career playing against much tougher competition in the West, while, especially when in Miami, LBJ has often been going up against ridiculously soft teams. There must be some way to quantify this and make adjustments, as you would for class in horseracing.

As boring as this series has been, great to see a happy Durant at the end of the season -- he's put in a lot of years already.




http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

[burnsy]

KD is obviously a great player.

If you switch the two, the Cavs wouldn't be close in any game. That is my point, not trying to knock KD. I always despised LeBron simply because OKC couldn't beat him, but I've learned to appreciate how great he is. They win that game easily if anyone besides him or JR Smith could have made a 3.

That's not the point. They are on the teams they pretty much chose at this point. KD just has been better. All the talking heads talk about is how LeBron is on offense and his offensive stats. He defense has been lacking all year. Their entire team has blown leads all season long. They can't play defense to close out a game. Some of those guys including KD were making threes in his face, at the most crucial point in the game. If you can't defend the teams in the Eastern the Western is going to pick you to pieces and Golden State has done that every game. The Media "best player" in the world" BS gets old.

Flip side, the Warriors coach and players. They get out in front on defense and wear teams out. Yeah, LeBron and JR get theirs but it costs them all their energy by the end. They don't get back and they can't even get a hand up to even try at the end. Everyone wants to see the scoring side, in any sport that's the losers bet. Defense almost always wins out. All they kept asking KD about was his 3 at the end...........all he wanted to talk about were the stops they make at the end. That's a team player, a guy that's coached correctly and a better all around player. LeBron is a great player but sometimes you gotta admit when someone done jobbed you. And he was had.....big time.

[cj]

That's not the point. They are on the teams they pretty much chose at this point. KD just has been better. All the talking heads talk about is how LeBron is on offense and his offensive stats. He defense has been lacking all year. Their entire team has blown leads all season long. They can't play defense to close out a game. Some of those guys including KD were making threes in his face, at the most crucial point in the game. If you can't defend the teams in the Eastern the Western is going to pick you to pieces and Golden State has done that every game. The Media "best player" in the world" BS gets old.

Flip side, the Warriors coach and players. They get out in front on defense and wear teams out. Yeah, LeBron and JR get theirs but it costs them all their energy by the end. They don't get back and they can't even get a hand up to even try at the end. Everyone wants to see the scoring side, in any sport that's the losers bet. Defense almost always wins out. All they kept asking KD about was his 3 at the end...........all he wanted to talk about were the stops they make at the end. That's a team player, a guy that's coached correctly and a better all around player. LeBron is a great player but sometimes you gotta admit when someone done jobbed you. And he was had.....big time.


That is the point though. It is a team game. Just because KD is on a far superior team doesn't mean he is a superior player to LeBron, it just doesn't.

As far as stops at the end, what I saw was the Cavs bricking wide open 3s and the Warriors making them. That isn't a stop, it is a miss.

[cj]

The officiating last night was a travesty in many ways. No way those guys get another game in the Finals any time soon.

[cj]

One of the best in game dunks you'll ever see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTLZmyjzPnY

[ronsmac]

One of the best in game dunks you'll ever see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTLZmyjzPnY
Blowing that late lead in game 3 probably cost "us" the series.

[cj]

Blowing that late lead in game 3 probably cost "us" the series.

Kyle Korver missing that wide open 3 killed them, most likely ices the game. I always say missing wide open corner 3s puts the D in a really tough spot defensively and it really played out there.

[ronsmac]

Kyle Korver missing that wide open 3 killed them, most likely ices the game. I always say missing wide open corner 3s puts the D in a really tough spot defensively and it really played out there.I'm praying for a miracle.

[ace4win]

Who's watching right now? :popcorn:

[ReplayRandall]

Sorry, but this series will be boring as well---->Warriors in 5
Like I said....:sleeping::sleeping:

[menifee]

Other than Wizards-Celtics, these series were awful. Unwatchable.

[Robert Fischer]

This wasn't a basketball season.

This was waiting for the 82 games, and the 'pre-season' part of the playoffs to get over with, so the two teams in the league could play each other, and we could see who would win. By the time we got to the finale, even the finals were anticlimactic. We knew who would probably win.

This was just as bad as some of the most pre-determined NBA seasons in the past, but perhaps the most obvious, and least captivating. Some of the others at least invoked a suspension of disbelief.

I have to allow for being less naive and more cynical, but as a teen, I believed at least part of the Bulls success was due to the 'greatness' of Jordan.
I'm sure I would now see the Bulls of those days as an ad-revenue vehicle, with everything their own way. However, I think I would be entertained watching them, even in this negative light.

[cj]

This wasn't a basketball season.

This was waiting for the 82 games, and the 'pre-season' part of the playoffs to get over with, so the two teams in the league could play each other, and we could see who would win. By the time we got to the finale, even the finals were anticlimactic. We knew who would probably win.

This was just as bad as some of the most pre-determined NBA seasons in the past, but perhaps the most obvious, and least captivating. Some of the others at least invoked a suspension of disbelief.

I have to allow for being less naive and more cynical, but as a teen, I believed at least part of the Bulls success was due to the 'greatness' of Jordan.
I'm sure I would now see the Bulls of those days as an ad-revenue vehicle, with everything their own way. However, I think I would be entertained watching them, even in this negative light.

Going to be several more years of this garbage. Warriors open at -200 for the title next year.

[Valuist]

This wasn't a basketball season.

This was waiting for the 82 games, and the 'pre-season' part of the playoffs to get over with, so the two teams in the league could play each other, and we could see who would win. By the time we got to the finale, even the finals were anticlimactic. We knew who would probably win.

This was just as bad as some of the most pre-determined NBA seasons in the past, but perhaps the most obvious, and least captivating. Some of the others at least invoked a suspension of disbelief.

I have to allow for being less naive and more cynical, but as a teen, I believed at least part of the Bulls success was due to the 'greatness' of Jordan.
I'm sure I would now see the Bulls of those days as an ad-revenue vehicle, with everything their own way. However, I think I would be entertained watching them, even in this negative light.

I think in those Bulls series, at least some of them, it wasn't a foregone conclusion that they'd win. They had several very difficult series vs the Knicks, as well as in the Finals. This year, the only suspense was would the Warriors lose ANY games in the postseason.

[ronsmac]

Watching the first10 minutes of the Celtics/Lakers documentary . Damn the players sucked in the 50s and 60s.

[FakeNameChanged]

I admit to no longer being much of a fan. But correct me if I'm wrong, didn't the Cavs play better without two of their stars, Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving in the playoffs last year? And by playing better I mean beat the Warriors.

[cj]

I admit to no longer being much of a fan. But correct me if I'm wrong, didn't the Cavs play better without two of their stars, Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving in the playoffs last year? And by playing better I mean beat the Warriors.

It was two years ago those guys were hurt, and they didn't win.

Irving and Love are decent, but neither are top 5 players at their positions. The Warriors have FOUR starters that are at least top 5 at their position, mostly top 2 or 3, the Cavs have one.

[lansdale]

If only Lebron had let the Cavs keep Andrew Wiggins and Anthony Bennett, they would have won it :-).

[cj]

If only Lebron had let the Cavs keep Andrew Wiggins and Anthony Bennett, they would have won it :-).


Wiggins would definitely have been better than Love, who was awful in the Finals.

Bennett, no comment. :)

[lansdale]

Wiggins would definitely have been better than Love, who was awful in the Finals.

Bennett, no comment. :)

This was like a hit of nitrous -- your anti-KL thing is beyond bizarre at this point ;-). First, KL was good in the Finals -- his numbers 16 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 2.2 stl, 1 block, are similar to those from other 2nd and 3rd options from the past -- McHale, Parish, Worthy, et. al.. They're also very similar to his regular season numbers -- a couple of points less, but he was going up against the best defensive player in the league, and likely an all-time great D guy. He's a very good player, though not on the level of LBJ, KD, SC, DG.

OTOH, Wiggins has proven to be a mediocre to bad player. He's the second option on the one of the worst teams in the league, and has never played in the post-season. If you check the link below, you can see his RPM (Real Plus Minus) ranks -- he's 48th out of 80 SFs on overall RPM and nearly tied for last 79th out of 80 on DRPM (Defensive RPM). He has some scoring ability but, even though he's 6'8" he's a terrible rebounder (4pg) and is atrocious on D, as the DRPM indicates. This was a guy who was touted as a great defensive player at draft time. If you've watched him, you can see he also has zero hoops IQ, even though he's been in the leagure three years.

Three years ago, like everyone else, I thought this guy was a future all-star who, at 18, was just too young to help LBJ win his next title any time soon. Now it's clear no way will this guy ever be an all star, let alone a starter on any team going to the Finals. His ceiling is probably Rudy Gay -- a very mediocre player who can shoot the ball -- and that's it.

Weren't you the one who has always been skeptical about guys who were the big scorers on bad teams -- empty point specialists. Can't you see that Wiggins is that guy?



https://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/5

[cj]

This was like a hit of nitrous -- your anti-KL thing is beyond bizarre at this point ;-). First, KL was good in the Finals -- his numbers 16 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 2.2 stl, 1 block, are similar to those from other 2nd and 3rd options from the past -- McHale, Parish, Worthy, et. al.. They're also very similar to his regular season numbers -- a couple of points less, but he was going up against the best defensive player in the league, and likely an all-time great D guy. He's a very good player, though not on the level of LBJ, KD, SC, DG.

OTOH, Wiggins has proven to be a mediocre to bad player. He's the second option on the one of the worst teams in the league, and has never played in the post-season. If you check the link below, you can see his RPM (Real Plus Minus) ranks -- he's 48th out of 80 SFs on overall RPM and nearly tied for last 79th out of 80 on DRPM (Defensive RPM). He has some scoring ability but, even though he's 6'8" he's a terrible rebounder (4pg) and is atrocious on D, as the DRPM indicates. This was a guy who was touted as a great defensive player at draft time. If you've watched him, you can see he also has zero hoops IQ, even though he's been in the leagure three years.

Three years ago, like everyone else, I thought this guy was a future all-star who, at 18, was just too young to help LBJ win his next title any time soon. Now it's clear no way will this guy ever be an all star, let alone a starter on any team going to the Finals. His ceiling is probably Rudy Gay -- a very mediocre player who can shoot the ball -- and that's it.

Weren't you the one who has always been skeptical about guys who were the big scorers on bad teams -- empty point specialists. Can't you see that Wiggins is that guy?



https://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/5

I don't know what the numbers say about the finals, but in the time I watched Love was pretty bad. I don't think Wiggins is any great shakes either but I think he would fit better on the Cavs.

Kevin Love is a decent player of course. I just don't think he is near as good as many make him out to be. He isn't an all star either in my opinion. The Cavs are looking to trade him allegedly. I wonder why?

[Robert Fischer]

what is next for the NBA?

simply celebrate the Warriors greatness/dynasty?

give Lebron more free-agent superstars in hopes of repeating this boring season?

not a lot of options, in terms of micro-managing another rivalry. Spurs and Clippers are in the West. Make them a super-team, and you don't create a finals matchup. Mess up and make them actually competitive, and with some injuries/luck, - the worst-case scenario of defeating the Warriors pre-finals could possibly play out. -$

Boston would sell, and has decent coaching. I guess Silver could do more meddling and do something similar to sending UFA's Steph Curry and Milsap and a piece to be named later to the Celtics.
Not sure that wouldn't make the league even worse. But it might be profitable. The fans in the north-east may eat it up, and the media would be able to sell it.

Have to guess that 'celebrate the Warriors' is the most likely option at this point.

This is what the NBA wanted.

[Robert Fischer]

He's a very good player, though not on the level of LBJ, KD, SC, DG.

your love of 'DG' is on par with Cj's dislike of 'KL'

[cj]

your love of 'DG' is on par with Cj's dislike of 'KL'

Draymond is obviously very talented, but he is a star because of the cast he is playing with currently.

[cj]

what is next for the NBA?

simply celebrate the Warriors greatness/dynasty?

give Lebron more free-agent superstars in hopes of repeating this boring season?

not a lot of options, in terms of micro-managing another rivalry. Spurs and Clippers are in the West. Make them a super-team, and you don't create a finals matchup. Mess up and make them actually competitive, and with some injuries/luck, - the worst-case scenario of defeating the Warriors pre-finals could possibly play out. -$

Boston would sell, and has decent coaching. I guess Silver could do more meddling and do something similar to sending UFA's Steph Curry and Milsap and a piece to be named later to the Celtics.
Not sure that wouldn't make the league even worse. But it might be profitable. The fans in the north-east may eat it up, and the media would be able to sell it.

Have to guess that 'celebrate the Warriors' is the most likely option at this point.

This is what the NBA wanted.

The league tried to smooth the salary cap to prevent this sort of thing but the players wouldn't go for it. It is bizarre. It would have helped your average player, but instead they voted to make the stars richer. Of course a star runs the group so it shouldn't be surprising I guess.

I also think that the league really doesn't mind a super team. This time probably went too far though, they ruined a season and probably more to come.

[lansdale]

I realize the bad vibes the GSW juggernaut has created for hard-core fans, but as we have discussed here, this has always been the way of the NBA -- a very few organizations have won most of the championships -- mostly because they understand better than others what it takes to win. It really isn't about the money or contracts. Look at GSW -- they drafted a core of great young players -- Curry, KT, DG, and developed them and also brought in a much better coach, who took them from 50 to 67 wins in one year. Then Durant decided to make his move -- completely legal, but helped by the terms of the new deal. But think about the alternative -- KD could have said, I'll stay in OKC for another year, and under the terms of the new deal, OKC might be able to pick up another big FA and give OKC a shot to win it. If he stays, GSW is still going to be in the Finals this year regardless -- they won 73 games without him. But he leaves -- just icing on the cake for GSW.

Despite all the fantasy talk-radio GM stuff about deals, worth remembering, as Nate has demonstrated only two or three teams, with top two or three players in league, ever have a chance to win it. Thus, much more than in any other sport, title outcomes are determined by the decisions of theses two or three players. It obviously creates a lot of resentment for hardcore fans in cities without such players -- most places -- but that's the reality.

Barring injuries, assuming GSW will dominate the NBA for the next three years or so. Might be a negative for some, but the Jordan era didn't to seem to damage league revenues too much

[JustRalph]

Watching the first10 minutes of the Celtics/Lakers documentary . Damn the players sucked in the 50s and 60s.

They weren't playing the same game. The game really changed I think in the 70's.

Most of those guys didn't grow up playing basketball. Remember they were kids in the late 30's through the 40's. There were a whole lot of more important things going on than basketball.

This is the first year I didn't watch one NBA game for the entire season. I read some, and followed CJ on twitter. That was enough for me

[ronsmac]

These are two of the greatest hoops players we'll ever have the privilege of watching -- so somewhat silly imho, but maybe inevitable that the perennial argument about who's the true alpha. I've posted a link of all their head to head games below -- one interesting perspective on this pair., because I believe we can assume that these two were checking each other most of the time in these games. I think this summary tells us what we already know -- these two players are very close in ability, although LBJ is often thought to be an order of magnitude better. Their reg. season scoring and rebounding is almost identical, and LBJ is a better passer. In the post season, KD is the better shooter and scorer, and LBJ's rebounding picks up over the reg. season, as we know.

Re KD in this series, he's outplaying LBJ, but not by much. Worth remembering that LBJ, at 32, is now a couple of years past his prime -- we can all see the decline in vertical lift, speed, and stamina. KD, at 28, is in his prime, at the peak of his career. Also, as cj pointed out, on such a stacked team, KD is much less pressured -- when before in his career did you ever seem get open looks, or passes for easy dunks in the lane -- never. For the same reason, he's also playing fewer minutes, and thus has greater reserves of energy throughout the game. OTOH, LBJ, is forced to expend huge amounts of energy, and he's clearly been gassed by the second half of both these games. Despite all, he's still playing at an amazingly high level.

So who is better? At this point, as pure player, KD is better -- he led the league in WS/48, the best overall indicator of the contribution a player makes to winning. But if you asked the question 'who do you want with the ball in his hands at crunch time' , that would have to be LBJ, whose hoops IQ is much higher. One of the best aspects of KD's move to GSW is that he rarely has to make any important decisions with the ball, (maybe the weakest part of his game) since Curry and DG do such a great job.

Wish this were a real series, but still great to be able to watch some spectacular play.





http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Kevin+Durant&player_id1_select=Kevin+Durant&player_id1=duranke01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=LeBron+James&player_id2_select=LeBron+James&player_id2=jamesle01&idx=playersIf we're alive in 15 or 20 years we will see players better than both Lebron and KD. 15 years after that those players will be even better.

[ronsmac]

They weren't playing the same game. The game really changed I think in the 70's.

Most of those guys didn't grow up playing basketball. Remember they were kids in the late 30's through the 40's. There were a whole lot of more important things going on than basketball.

This is the first year I didn't watch one NBA game for the entire season. I read some, and followed CJ on twitter. That was enough for me1950's basketball was like watching slow white guys playing at the YMCA.

[Robert Fischer]

1950's basketball was like watching slow white guys playing at the YMCA.

The only thing the 50's teams brought to the game were things like the weave.

These guys didn't just run a weave occasionally on a fast break(did they even have fast breaks back then?).
Their offensive sets occasionally were similar to watching the a team run the triple-option in college football.




Individual talent has since brought a lot more to the game of basketball.

From the mid-90's to the mid-2000s, it can be argued that we almost reached a point of diminishing-returns with individual talent.
The 'And1' era. The crossover dribble era. Some players seemed to be at times more driven to 'waive off' a screen, and attempt a low% pull-up jumper after trying to 'break the defender's ankles' with a shake and bake crossover dribble. Spotlight basketball.


From about the mid 2000-teens to present the game has left that 'And1' era far behind, to a more efficient use of the game pieces and the playing territory.
The 3-point shot is used as a weapon and a threat to a greater degree than ever before. Steph Curry looks like a Michael Jordan in this environment instead of a Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf. Klay Thompson looks like a Reggie Miller in this environment instead of a Dell Curry.
With the 3pt weapon being efficiently used, the game has become about screens and spacing(remotely similar to the 'triple option' of the 50's). Both offensively and defensively. The teams who run the offense correctly, horribly expose regular defenses. Defenses have to be active, able to switch men on screens and not miss a beat(not be mismatches), rotate into cross court passing lanes. Just as the offense is about screens and spacing, - the defenses are about handling the screens, and maintaining coverage of the space. A guy like Draymond Green looks like the ultimate team player in this environment, instead of the cool guy on your team that doesn't mess up.


Aside from the unneeded co-opting of Kevin Durant, the Warriors built this dynasty from superior insight into modern basketball and reasonably good fortune with their pieces. They have better management and better suited pieces than the other teams. They deserve to be a dynasty.

[cj]

Silly season in the NBA is looking even sillier than normal this year so far.

[Valuist]

Nice job by Tibs getting revenge on the team that ran him out of town.

[ReplayRandall]

To no one's surprise, Russell Westbrook was just named MVP....Mr. Triple Double II

Special mention to Charlotte's own Kemba Walker for winning the NBA's Sportsmanship Award, as Hornet's fans will take anything we can get....Congrats to both.

[cj]

To no one's surprise, Russell Westbrook was just named MVP....Mr. Triple Double II

Special mention to Charlotte's own Kemba Walker for winning the NBA's Sportsmanship Award, as Hornet's fans will take anything we can get....Congrats to both.

That is cool for Walker, he seems like a really good guy and has made the most out of his abilities. You guys know how I feel about Russ. He is the real deal, and I think nationally some people saw that finally last night. Good family, married his college sweetheart and worships her and their child, teammates love him.

[ronsmac]

The mvp is a silly award that should be changed to the best statistical season award. The player who's been the most valuable for 12years running has been LeBron. His teams have stunk when he's left and his current team stinks when he doesn't play. Even with Kyrie and Love. Russell won the mvp somehow the year Wilt avg. 50 and Oscar avg. a triple double because they said he was more valuable to his team.

[barahona44]

Phil Jackson out as GM-VP of the Knicks.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19755552/new-york-knicks-team-president-phil-jackson-mutually-agree-part-ways

Other than drafting Kristaps Porzingas, not much went right under The Zen Master's tenure .Although how anybody can get anything done under a doofus owner like James Dolan is still open to question.

[cj]

Chris Paul to the Rockets...not sure how that is going to work out with two guys that usually dribble about 15 seconds of the shot clock away.

[cj]

Paul George to Thunder. Presti basically flipped Serge Ibaka for Paul George and Jeremi Grant. George may leave after a year, but still a good deal. Ibaka was leaving anyway and has already been traded.

[ReplayRandall]

Paul George to Thunder. Presti basically flipped Serge Ibaka for Paul George and Jeremi Grant. George may leave after a year, but still a good deal. Ibaka was leaving anyway and has already been traded.

Good for you and OKC fans.....Screw Danny Ainge and his wheelin' dealin' big ego..:rip:

[cj]

Good for you and OKC fans.....Screw Danny Ainge and his wheelin' dealin' big ego..:rip:

Nobody is beating the Warriors barring injury, but will be a fun season.

[burnsy]

Same two teams, same results. Cavs hang around until last 5 minutes, then fall behind. No Steph Curry, KD schools them...........Le King 7 turnovers.........aka Le turnover......

[cj]

Nobody is beating the Warriors barring injury, but will be a fun season.

Thunder are finally putting it together. Defense is great, offense looking much better. I kept saying give them until Christmas, and right on cue they are playing really well. They sure stunk early!

[thaskalos]

What a joke the NBA has become. The Minnesota Timberwolves announce that Jimmy Butler will sit out of tonight's game against the Raptors HALF AN HOUR before the game...without any regard for all the bettors who had already laid the 3 points while thinking that the Wolves were a complete set. And then the NBA commissioner claims to be in favor of sports betting. :ThmbDown:

[barahona44]

Not to be a noodge (but I guess I am), it's already 2018.Shouldn't this thread be retitled from 2016-17 NBA to 2017-18 NBA?