Help me understand alcoholism

[Neumeier]

Does anyone on here have any close experiences with an alcoholic? I swear, I don't get it.

I have a very close friend that has lost his marriage, kids, and all his friends to this disease. He can't go a day without being drunk. He goes on weeklong or more benders where he is constantly drunk.

The weirdest thing about this is that he's not even drinking beer. He pounds vodka so he can get drunk faster. He doesn't even like vodka.

He recently got out of rehab and lasted about 3 days before going back to his old ways.

Any info or advice would be appreciated.

[BELMONT 6-6-09]

Does anyone on here have any close experiences with an alcoholic? I swear, I don't get it.

I have a very close friend that has lost his marriage, kids, and all his friends to this disease. He can't go a day without being drunk. He goes on weeklong or more benders where he is constantly drunk.

The weirdest thing about this is that he's not even drinking beer. He pounds vodka so he can get drunk faster. He doesn't even like vodka.

He recently got out of rehab and lasted about 3 days before going back to his old ways.

Any info or advice would be appreciated.

For of all it is a disease and that says it all. I lost a best buddy a few years ago with the same symptoms of your friend. I tried to be the understanding buddy, the brutally honest buddy nothing worked > bought him a tape they used for therapy for recovering alcoholics that describes all of the bad things, medically speaking the poison does to your body. I found out from his wife he never played it but shot holes through it with his BB gun...if it wasn't so sad I would laugh. he is gone now, very sad

[BELMONT 6-6-09]

For of all it is a disease and that says it all. I lost a best buddy a few years ago with the same symptoms of your friend. I tried to be the understanding buddy, the brutally honest buddy nothing worked > bought him a tape they used for therapy for recovering alcoholics that describes all of the bad things, medically speaking the poison does to your body. I found out from his wife he never played it but shot holes through it with his BB gun...if it wasn't so sad I would laugh. he is gone now, very sad
If I were you I would volunteer to go to AA with him, it might be a start if he agrees.

[_______]

For you, my advise is that his disease isn't your responsibility.

If his drinking affects you directly, deal with it directly. If you ever feel the urge to accompany him to an AA meeting, just go to an Alanon meeting on your own instead. You would be taking responsibility for stuff you don't own otherwise. In fact, just go to an Alanon meeting and listen. The fact that you you are asking random strangers on the internet about this tells me you'd benefit from some of the common sense you'd hear.

If he isn't going to meetings on his own he's not an alcoholic (a term that describes some of the best people you will ever meet), he's just a drunk.

I know it isn't easy but stay on your side of the fence. You can't control his decisions. Accept that and live the best life you can.

[mostpost]

Does anyone on here have any close experiences with an alcoholic? I swear, I don't get it.

I have a very close friend that has lost his marriage, kids, and all his friends to this disease. He can't go a day without being drunk. He goes on weeklong or more benders where he is constantly drunk.

The weirdest thing about this is that he's not even drinking beer. He pounds vodka so he can get drunk faster. He doesn't even like vodka.

He recently got out of rehab and lasted about 3 days before going back to his old ways.

Any info or advice would be appreciated.
I don't drink. Years ago-mid 1980's-I got involved with a woman who was an alcoholic. Of course I did not know this at the beginning. Then it started. We'd make a date and when I got to her home she wasn't there. Too often, like daily, she would stop for "a few" after work. She missed work once or twice a week until she was fired.

Then there were the late night phone calls. More times than I can count the phone would ring at two or three in the morning. "I can't live like this anymore; I'm going to slit my wrists." And I would have to talk her down; oftentimes traveling to her home just to make sure she did not do harm to herself. And a week or two or maybe a month later, the same thing.

I developed a bleeding ulcer and almost died. In desperation I looked for help. Father Bill Shannon is a Chicago archdiocesan priest. He ministers to alcoholics. Father Shannon used to help out on Sundays at the parish I attend. So I made an appointment to see him and discuss my situation.

He explained the ramifications of the disease to me. How it is a progressive disease and how the need for alcohol is never satisfied. How a person with the disease of alcoholism is incapable of seeing that she is ill.

He told me one thing that I will always remember. "You can't help her; you can't fix her. If you are not very careful, she will drag you down." It was shortly after that, I was admitted to the hospital for an emergency blood transfusion. The doctor told me I was within an hour of going into a coma and possibly dying.

We only dated for a few months, but remained friends. I loaned her money for a security deposit on an apartment and I cosigned a loan for a used car. I never got back the money, but she did make all the payments on the car.

There was some improvement; she took the test and got a job with the United States Postal Service and worked there until she retired a few years ago. But I still get the occasional call from her and when I do she always seems as if she has been drinking.

Anyway, the point of all that is you should expect to be disappointed. You friend seems on the way to disaster. Be sure you do not share in that.

[EasyGoer89]

I would say the thing I don't understand is how is this different from just a lack of will power, there are some alcoholics who quit cold turkey and never take another drink due to will power. With nicotine addiction do we say people who 'can't quit smoking' have a disease that prevents them from quitting? Is an addicted smoker somehow different from an addicted alcohol user?

[BELMONT 6-6-09]

I would say the thing I don't understand is how is this different from just a lack of will power, there are some alcoholics who quit cold turkey and never take another drink due to will power. With nicotine addiction do we say people who 'can't quit smoking' have a disease that prevents them from quitting? Is an addicted smoker somehow different from an addicted alcohol user?

I am not an expert, however, a friend who is a counselor once told me an alcoholic will listen to a 'clean' former alcoholic simply because he or she has been where they have been.

[Greyfox]

Yes, it has a disease component, probably genetic in origin.
But it is also has a choice component.
The bottle does not jump up and grab the drinker!
If an alcoholic thinks of it as a disease alone, it reduces his or her power to overcome it.
At some point, the drinker has to make a decision to stop.
Otherwise, severe damage can be done to personal health and loved ones.
In extreme cases, it can cause a premature death.
For some, that decision is harder to make than for others.
Some can make that decision on their own without support groups.
Others need support from Alcohol Treatment Centers or AA.
No one can make that decision for him or her.

[upthecreek]

Alcoholism is characterised by an increased tolerance to alcohol–which means that an individual can consume more alcohol–and physical dependence on alcohol, which makes it hard for an individual to control their consumption. The physical dependency caused by alcohol can lead to an affected individual having a very strong urge to drink alcohol. These characteristics play a role decreasing an alcoholic's ability to stop drinking

I was there once and I can't explain it To me (and others) it was "normal" I was more of what they call a functioning alcoholic Beer at lunch, happy hour, hit it hard on weekends, buyt for the most part made work and fulfilled obligations Most people would say they could never tell when I was drunk Been sober over 10 years I can tell you one thing, rehab only works if the person wants it to and AA isn't for everybody

[Neumeier]

Thanks for the responses

I have distanced myself away from him. Myself and our group of friends can only do so much. We've dropped everything and shown up at his house, taken him to rehab, the hospital, and countless other things. There has come a point where we have to focus on our own lives.

A couple side notes. He is very wealthy and has tons of free time. That's a sucky combination. My friend said it's unlikely that he will hit rock bottom because it'll be hard for him to go broke. Also the free time is a killer. Now that he lost his kids he can just sit around and drink all day

[Marshall Bennett]

Until an alcoholic/addict comes to terms with themselves and admit they have a problem there's little anyone else can do. Denial is the evil force with addiction. They must decide for themselves they want to get better and recover, others cannot decide this for them. Once this first step is taken, support from family and friends can be important.

[thaskalos]

My brother-in-law was asked to make a choice between his home, wife and two great kids...and the bottle. He chose the bottle...and is now drunk and despised...living in an apartment that he shares with two relative strangers.

Addictions ruin lives...

[chadk66]

just move on. people that bad will never go straight. so I would put no effort into it and would totally remove myself from them. I had an aunt and uncle that both were alcoholics. Another very close friend that was for many years. The last actually got straight and was an amazing person. But I met him after he had gone through the hell of the disease.

[zico20]

My brother was an alcoholic in his early 20s. He was drinking close to a case of beer a day. Then one day he was involved in a head on collision where he crossed the center line. Incredibly no one was seriously hurt. After he got arrested and was released he went home and had the urgency to drink. He said he felt God's hand on his face and he told me God went through his body and he threw away the cases of beer. He instantly never had the urge to have a drop of beer from that moment on. It has been almost 25 years since that day. I thank God for saving my brother from a life of despair.

[Inner Dirt]

Until an alcoholic/addict comes to terms with themselves and admit they have a problem there's little anyone else can do. Denial is the evil force with addiction. They must decide for themselves they want to get better and recover, others cannot decide this for them. Once this first step is taken, support from family and friends can be important.

That about sums it up, my mother who was a highly functional alcoholic, became a play-off level barely functional 24-7 staggering drunk when my step-dad died in April 2002. Within a year she had scored a DUI at the age of 65, fallen numerous times chipping teeth requiring dental work, a couple facial lacerations requiring stitches, started collecting dents on her new car, etc,etc. She didn't even own any of that. The breath tester must be wrong, she tripped over the cat, tripped over the dog. The car damage was
all done in parking lots when she was in the store.


Nothing I could do helped, I lived 40 miles away, but was self-employed. I talked to her an average of 3x a day on the phone and visited twice a week. Tried to get her interested in items with less alcohol content, but she seemed to rate the taste of wine on alcohol content none of the 3% desert wines tasted good but anything 15-18% was yummy. She finally was found dead by the neighbor, alcohol and Prozac o.d. November 2003, she was perfectly healthy other than alcohol abuse. She lied to me about going to court mandated counseling and AA meetings, I figured she was lying. While checking the mail after her death I got the notice to turn herself in for arrest for not attending any of the court mandated meetings.

[Actor]

I would say the thing I don't understand is how is this different from just a lack of will power, there are some alcoholics who quit cold turkey and never take another drink due to will power. With nicotine addiction do we say people who 'can't quit smoking' have a disease that prevents them from quitting? Is an addicted smoker somehow different from an addicted alcohol user?The alcoholic and the smoker have the same disease. The difference is that the smoker can still function.

[HuggingTheRail]

Both of my parents died from issues caused by their alcoholism. 7 months apart, and both within a few months either side of their 50th birthday...back in 1996.

There is so much I could say, yet I feel like even I don't really understand it.

Hope your friend finds sobriety and good health, and can reconcile his life.

[VigorsTheGrey]

The alcoholic and the smoker have the same disease. The difference is that the smoker can still function.
Members of my family smoke cigs...at night they take CIG breaks even as they sleep...the smell disturbs my rest...I ask them to choose between me and the cigs....I don't visit anymore...they still smoke...are their cigs more important than me getting any sleep? I guess so...

[Inner Dirt]

The alcoholic and the smoker have the same disease. The difference is that the smoker can still function.

I kicked both alcohol and tobacco (I did snuff or chewed) years ago at the same time. There were times I had at least 3 beers everyday for years never took a day off from drinking. I had no problem stopping drinking cold turkey with no help, no side effects, no cravings. On the other hand stopping tobacco was a nightmare, I chewed a lot of gum and ate sunflower seeds. I got headaches, weird tastes in my mouth and cravings up to six months after stopping.

[Greyfox]

.I ask them to choose between me and the cigs....I don't visit anymore...they still smoke...are their cigs more important than me getting any sleep? I guess so...

C'mon. You're obviously a visitor in your friend's home.
Going into someone's else's home asking them to change their behavior for you is a little bit much for a visitor to insist on.
They are not saying that cigs are more important than you.
But you are saying that you don't understand that cigarettes are one of the toughest addictions in the world to overcome.
Perhaps you could ask them to smoke outside while you are sleeping in their house.
But I don't know of any smokers who are going to quit smoking anywhere in the world because a visitor wants to sleep.
By the way, my wife visits her elderly out of town sister and husband who smoke and stays with them for one evening every month.
She has a hard time sleeping when she visits.
But as it is only 1 day a month she's prepared to tolerate the smoking stench rather than ask them to give up the filthy habit.

[Jess Hawsen Arown]

I can't add much to what has already been said except to say that AA saved my friend's life. He is simply the smartest person I know, but was no match to the addiction of alcohol.

The hardest part for the addict is to believe they are sick and to take that first step -- and contact AA.

OPINION: If the addict believes that going to AA means that there is something wrong with he or she as a person, they will fight going with every fiber of their being. Once the addict understands it is a disease equivalent to bacteria entering their system over which they have no possible control, they will be more open to help.

[Greyfox]

Once the addict understands it is a disease equivalent to bacteria entering their system over which they have no possible control, they will be more open to help.

Hold on now.
I said earlier that alcoholism has a disease component to it, and it does.
The problem with thinking of alcoholism as a disease though is it places the person smack dab in the center of a Medical Model.
In Medicine, a patient with a disease needs to be diagnosed, treated and cured.
With respect to alcoholism, a Medical Doctor can give the patient anti-anxiety medication which can calm the person's nerves.
But that is about as far as the Medical Model can go.
The problem with the Medical Model is it teaches people that they are patients. Patients believe that the Doctor and medicine can cure them and they have to wait to be cured.
The fact is, the cure can only come from within.

I prefer to view alcoholism as a disorder to which some people have a greater genetic disposition to than others.
Unlike bacteria and germs, you cannot catch it in the air.
The bottle does not come out of a closet and grab the drinker.
It is not contagious.

Essentially, it is a DISORDER OF CHOICE.
The ONLY CURE FOR ALCOHOLISM WILL BE A CHOICE MADE BY THE ALCOHOLIC TO STOP DRINKING.
Until the alcoholic makes that choice, you're wasting your time.
Unfortunately, some people never make that choice.

*Remember - We're talking about severely addicted drinkers here, not the guy who likes to go for a few brewskies after work with the boys on a Friday night.

[Inner Dirt]

C'mon. You're obviously a visitor in your friend's home.
Going into someone's else's home asking them to change their behavior for you is a little bit much for a visitor to insist on.
They are not saying that cigs are more important than you.
But you are saying that you don't understand that cigarettes are one of the toughest addictions in the world to overcome.
Perhaps you could ask them to smoke outside while you are sleeping in their house.
But I don't know of any smokers who are going to quit smoking anywhere in the world because a visitor wants to sleep.
By the way, my wife visits her elderly out of town sister and husband who smoke and stays with them for one evening every month.
She has a hard time sleeping when she visits.
But as it is only 1 day a month she's prepared to tolerate the smoking stench rather than ask them to give up the filthy habit.

I would say "tobacco" use is one of the toughest addictions to overcome, like I said before it is just as hard to stop chewing as it is smoking. On the other hand I think a severe repulsion to cigarette smoke is also very real. (Doesn't bother me, I smell smokers and think of a casino or race track).
I used to make smokers smoke in my garage or outside at my house before this one. My current girlfriend in her first visit to my old house when I was giving her the tour while in the garage said "Who smokes here?" I had to think hard and realized the last person to smoke was 3 months prior. There was no other evidence of smoking than smell. (I could not smell it)
I know people who can smell a lit cigarette 100 yards away and they aren't imagining it.

[upthecreek]

I can't add much to what has already been said except to say that AA saved my friend's life. He is simply the smartest person I know, but was no match to the addiction of alcohol.

The hardest part for the addict is to believe they are sick and to take that first step -- and contact AA.

OPINION: If the addict believes that going to AA means that there is something wrong with he or she as a person, they will fight going with every fiber of their being. Once the addict understands it is a disease equivalent to bacteria entering their system over which they have no possible control, they will be more open to help.
Like I said earlier,AA doesn't work for everybody It didn't for me I wanted to drink more after listening to some of the stories being told and that higher power stuff turns people off
I went the way of an outpatient group at a local hospital

[Greyfox]

I would say "tobacco" use is one of the toughest addictions to overcome,.....
I know people who can smell a lit cigarette 100 yards away and they aren't imagining it.
Agreed. :ThmbUp:
Some people are more sensitive than others to smoke.
Smokers are already quite limited in the public places where they can smoke.
I wouldn't dream of asking a smoking friend to stop smoking in his own home which is one of his last places of refuge.

[Inner Dirt]

Like I said earlier,AA doesn't work for everybody It didn't for me I wanted to drink more after listening to some of the stories being told and that higher power stuff turns people off
I went the way of an outpatient group at a local hospital

I think abusing alcohol is a complex problem depending on the person. I stopped drinking when I had to go on medication for a heart problem and it said right on the bottle "Do no drink alcohol while taking this medication."
Like I said I quit cold turkey on my own with no issues and I know for a fact I consumed way more alcohol that your average drinker as I always had a high tolerance to it.

I know a good handful of guys I used to work with 30 years ago who went through aversion therapy for alcohol. Two guys did it together (company insurance paid for it) at first then one at a time 4 other guys went.
I was in touch with the group for about 4 years. Two guys stayed clean for the period of all drugs and alcohol. One went back to drinking, two guys became addicted to cocaine, and one became a pot head. What was comical is one of the coke heads ripped on anyone who drank no matter how much. He thought he was hiding his drug use, but we knew better.

I think the morale of the story is some people have addictive personality or a habit of doing things to excess, a couple guys just traded one addiction for another. I even know a friend's dad who had a drinking problem, went to AA stopped drinking and then became addicted to AA itself. For 25 years his life has revolved around attending meetings, conducting meetings, recruiting members etc,etc. He has no other life than AA.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Agreed. :ThmbUp:
Some people are more sensitive than others to smoke.
Smokers are already quite limited in the public places where they can smoke.
I wouldn't dream of asking a smoking friend to stop smoking in his own home which is one of his last places of refuge.
Problem is it is my family not friends and OUR family home not just theirs.
Even if they smoke on the porch, the smoke fills my bedroom even with the windows closed. They have a right to smoke BUT I have a right to NOT be around people who do...like you say, it is a disorder of choice...they choose the cigs or the booze over us...

[Greyfox]

Problem is it is my family not friends and OUR family home not just theirs.
Even if they smoke on the porch, the smoke fills my bedroom even with the windows closed. They have a right to smoke BUT I have a right to NOT be around people who do...like you say, it is a disorder of choice...they choose the cigs or the booze over us...

Yes, you have the right to make that choice.
Are you saying that you hate cigarette smoke, more than you love your family?

[VigorsTheGrey]

Yes, you have the right to make that choice.
Are you saying that you hate cigarette smoke, more than you love your family?
My grandfather died of emphesma and granny of lung cancer due to smoking....yes I love my family but knowing what damage smoking can do hurts that love for them....when a family member comes to me with lung cancer after chain smoking for decades, what does one say? See I told you so? And what about their love and concern for me and my sensitivity to smoke? They need to choose to care about themselves first and stop making choices that become roadblocks for others....

[Greyfox]

My grandfather died of emphesma and granny of lung cancer due to smoking....yes I love my family but knowing what damage smoking can do hurts that love for them....when a family member comes to me with lung cancer after chain smoking for decades, what does one say? See I told you so? And what about their love and concern for me and my sensitivity to smoke? They need to choose to care about themselves first and stop making choices that become roadblocks for others....

You make some very good sense there and I agree with all you say.
But have some compassion.
Their continuing to smoke is in no way a lack of concern or love for you, and remember, you are still a visitor to that family home.

[Inner Dirt]

Problem is it is my family not friends and OUR family home not just theirs.
Even if they smoke on the porch, the smoke fills my bedroom even with the windows closed. They have a right to smoke BUT I have a right to NOT be around people who do...like you say, it is a disorder of choice...they choose the cigs or the booze over us...


Yes, you have the right to make that choice.
Are you saying that you hate cigarette smoke, more than you love your family?


He just sounds like one of those people who are hyper sensitive to tobacco smoke, I think it is just as real as an allergy. I thought my girlfriend just had a mental issue with smokers till she smelled smoke in the garage where no one had smoked for months. I don't smoke and a smoke filled room doesn't bother me, but I am not sensitive to second hand smoke the way a lot of people are.

[Greyfox]

I thought my girlfriend just had a mental issue with smokers till she smelled smoke in the garage where no one had smoked for months.

Smoke stays in wood, paint, fabrics and so on for a long long time.
That she smelled smoke in the garage after a long period is of no surprise to me.

[VigorsTheGrey]

You make some very good sense there and I agree with all you say.
But have some compassion.
Their continuing to smoke is in no way a lack of concern or love for you, and remember, you are still a visitor to that family home.
They are visitors as well, or freeloaders who live there without paying rent. Mother hates the smoke as well...her policy is no smoking in the house...with the windows open, the smoke still finds its way in...

[Greyfox]

They are visitors as well, or freeloaders who live there without paying rent. Mother hates the smoke as well...her policy is no smoking in the house...with the windows open, the smoke still finds its way in...

Your mother has a smart policy of no smoking in the house.
Some day it will be sold. Many realtors say that a smoker can expect to get at least 10% less for a house that smokers have lived in.
That's $30,000 on a $300,000 home.

[JustRalph]

Your mother has a smart policy of no smoking in the house.
Some day it will be sold. Many realtors say that a smoker can expect to get at least 10% less for a house that smokers have lived in.
That's $30,000 on a $300,000 home.

When I was showing houses some clients won't even look at a home that's been smoked in.

I had one client walk out of a house in two minutes because of smoke that I couldn't smell.

Btw, I have extensive experience with alcoholics. Professionally and personally. They are all different. All of them act differently. Recently, I have a friend who was an alcoholic for 20 years. He spent five days in the hospital after suffering a seizure at work. He had stopped drinking for five days for a new Job. First day of new job he gets carted out in an ambulance. He went cold turkey after five days on an IV drip of the drugs that replace alcohol to get you through.

He's sober 2years last May.

[whodoyoulike]

My grandfather died of emphesma and granny of lung cancer due to smoking....yes I love my family but knowing what damage smoking can do hurts that love for them....when a family member comes to me with lung cancer after chain smoking for decades, what does one say? See I told you so? And what about their love and concern for me and my sensitivity to smoke? They need to choose to care about themselves first and stop making choices that become roadblocks for others....

Don't give up attempting to convince everyone in your family to quit. Watching a family member die from lung cancer, you would think would be enough reason.

[elysiantraveller]

To the OP...

There is some good stuff in here and a lot of really really really bad stuff in this thread.

I'm sober.

Feel free to PM me.

[speculus]

Two of my friends who we all thought were incorrigible, hopeless cases actually had miraculous recovery. One of them used Alan Carr's book Easy Way to quit alcohol, and the other started doing yoga and pranayam (deep breathing). The Alan Carr fellow has been off the drinks for nearly 3 years now, and the one who followed the Yoga and breathing path just completed one year, but is also living a great life as he quit both alcohol and smoking together last year, and has progressed all around and now living a blissful life.

After speaking to both of them to satisfy my own curiosity, I formed the following conclusion which may or may not be true:

The Carr book, if you read it in one go as my friend did (he woke up at 4 am after a hangover and found the book by his bedside which his wife had bought the earlier day and kept there) does such a through brainwashing job that the reader, if sincere in his desire to quit, has no choice but to logically and emotionally admit drinking is extremely dangerous, and he actually starts hating it. It perhaps manages an emotional turnaround with logical analysis, that the feeling I got after speaking to the friend.

The Yoga and deep breathing guy continued his binge drinking every night, but only made a promise to himself that whatever time he got up from bed he would do his postures, deep breathing and meditation without fail. And he stuck to it.

It took only 11 days for him to have his first night without drinks because his "awareness" reached a new level (his own words). He did sip a drink at a party after a month, but again "awareness" made him put the glass down, and thereafter he has been a sober man until now.

Hope this helps.

[Inner Dirt]

My Step-Dad used Smokenders to quit a 30 year long two pack a day habit 35 years ago. It looks like they are still around. Looks like they have online assistance worth looking into if anyone is interested. Back when my Step-Dad went they slowly weaned a person off of cigarettes by cutting out times people would smoke. It was tailored to the individual. The people that smoked first thing in the morning were told for the first week not to smoke before they had eaten breakfast, the second week they were told no cigarettes before breakfast and no cigarettes driving in the car to work. The program went on like this for a couple months until it was down to no cigarettes at all.

I think a person just has to keep trying different approaches to beating an addiction till they find something that works. I have actually known people who went to AA and came away thinking their drinking wasn't that much of a problem because of the horror stories they heard about guys who lost everything.