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EasyGoer89
10-22-2016, 02:10 AM
Fascinating article, lots to think about and digest.

http://blogs.northjersey.com/meadowlands-matters/federal-judge-gives-split-court-opinion-on-phil-ivey-10m-baccarat-win-over-borgata-1.1681211

lamboguy
10-22-2016, 04:21 AM
my simple question is why did the Borgarta allow Ivy to bet $50,000 a hand to begin with and then decide to let him go up to $100,000 and then come back in court and claim they got cheated? Ivy could have lost even with edge and i doubt the casino would have given back any of his losses.

EasyGoer89
10-23-2016, 01:34 AM
my simple question is why did the Borgarta allow Ivy to bet $50,000 a hand to begin with and then decide to let him go up to $100,000 and then come back in court and claim they got cheated? Ivy could have lost even with edge and i doubt the casino would have given back any of his losses.

To me this is the biggest argument, they are arguing that Ivey wasn't actually risking his money, but lets face it, if ivey and his partner are 'off' in their calculations on their ability to read the cards, they lose and they wouldn't be getting their money back.

Borgata also had the ability to make sure the backs of the cards were uniform, if those cards are flawed and you can see it, that's borgata's problem, they're the one running the game and taking a 'commission"

I wonder what the 'reverse' of this situation is, in other words, if the casino, even unwittingly, did something to cheat the player and the player sued, would the player get the same 'considerations' as the house? I seriously doubt it.

davew
10-24-2016, 03:05 AM
the article says the same 5 requests -

why would Crockfords have -> one 8-deck shoe of purple Gemaco Borgata playing cards to be used for the entirety of each session of play

ebcorde
10-24-2016, 04:57 PM
or shut down all Gambling casino's.

They found a flaw and took advantage of it. This was a long time ago I think he did the same thing in England, the Brits refused to pay him.

But if Ivey lost big because he guessed wrong then what? That's my problem,
if your smart ...oh the law says we can stop you from winning. F them.


Congress should apply the same rules to Wall Street?


Hold it

(4) one 8-deck shoe of purple Gemaco Borgata playing cards to be used for the entirety of each session of play; and

that makes the manufacturer liable if they did not send a Notice to the casino about the flaw in the cards.

ebcorde
10-24-2016, 05:02 PM
back in the day we analyzed currency via different wavelengths searching for a pattern. The cardboard paper is probably too thick to reflect a pattern though.

But if visible Ivey and one of the PH'd card sharks would be all over that.

ReplayRandall
10-24-2016, 06:24 PM
back in the day we analyzed currency via different wavelengths searching for a pattern. The cardboard paper is probably too thick to reflect a pattern though.

But if visible Ivey and one of the PH'd card sharks would be all over that.

I was in the casino business for a number of years, back in the 80's and 90's. I had some insight I shared on this topic almost 2 years ago:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1780746& (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1780746&postcount=226)
postcount=226 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1780746&postcount=226)
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1780751&postcount=228

ebcorde
10-24-2016, 08:30 PM
I was in the casino business for a number of years, back in the 80's and 90's. I had some insight I shared on this topic almost 2 years ago:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1780746& (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1780746&postcount=226)
postcount=226 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1780746&postcount=226)
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1780751&postcount=228

ha! I like it. 100% that could be what's going on.



I worked on the supply side to the slot machine industry. IGT/Aristocrat
IGT had a test guy who modified the code and burned a prom, installed it in a machine. wrote down the serial number. Tracked the machine down on the casino floor. .. and played the correct sequence of coins he programmed in to hit the small Jackpot.
Then he and his playing partner got greedy, did the same thing to a $100k machine in Atlantic City, he and his buddy showed up, won. But his mistake the Hotel room was in his name, that;s how they got caught.

This was early-mid 90's After that all vendors had to change the code to prevent it.

once I was offered a Job at Autotote, newark Del; at the time. I turned it down, pay was way too low. Then I got into Horse racing a few years later the IT guys tried to take down the breeders cup Pk6 changing the ticket. remember that?
Dude if I took that Job I would have never been caught.

lamboguy
10-24-2016, 09:01 PM
ha! I like it. 100% that could be what's going on.



I worked on the supply side to the slot machine industry. IGT/Aristocrat
IGT had a test guy who modified the code and burned a prom, installed it in a machine. wrote down the serial number. Tracked the machine down on the casino floor. .. and played the correct sequence of coins he programmed in to hit the small Jackpot.
Then he and his playing partner got greedy, did the same thing to a $100k machine in Atlantic City, he and his buddy showed up, won. But his mistake the Hotel room was in his name, that;s how they got caught.

This was early-mid 90's After that all vendors had to change the code to prevent it.

once I was offered a Job at Autotote, newark Del; at the time. I turned it down, pay was way too low. Then I got into Horse racing a few years later the IT guys tried to take down the breeders cup Pk6 changing the ticket. remember that?
Dude if I took that Job I would have never been caught.if you get the job, i would love to be your partner

PaceAdvantage
10-25-2016, 12:12 PM
ha! I like it. 100% that could be what's going on.



I worked on the supply side to the slot machine industry. IGT/Aristocrat
IGT had a test guy who modified the code and burned a prom, installed it in a machine. wrote down the serial number. Tracked the machine down on the casino floor. .. and played the correct sequence of coins he programmed in to hit the small Jackpot.
Then he and his playing partner got greedy, did the same thing to a $100k machine in Atlantic City, he and his buddy showed up, won. But his mistake the Hotel room was in his name, that;s how they got caught.

This was early-mid 90's After that all vendors had to change the code to prevent it.

once I was offered a Job at Autotote, newark Del; at the time. I turned it down, pay was way too low. Then I got into Horse racing a few years later the IT guys tried to take down the breeders cup Pk6 changing the ticket. remember that?
Dude if I took that Job I would have never been caught.Is there a job you haven't had?

dilanesp
11-17-2016, 01:56 PM
As far as I know, Ivey has lost all of his court cases so far, having done this at multiple casinos.

Which isn't surprising. A lot of people who aren't lawyers assume that cases are won by lawyers coming up with amazingly creative, strained arguments based on technicalities. In fact, they tend to be won the party who is seen as more sympathetic on the facts of the case. Sometimes, the "bad" party will win, but it's because they so clearly have the law on their side that the judge or jury feels it has no choice but to find for that party.

Ivey's argument is basically "yes, I came up with a scheme to achieve the same result as marking the cards of a casino game and used that scheme to turn the odds in my favor, but they never said I wasn't allowed to do it (because they wanted my business) and I didn't physically mark the cards".

Whereas the casino's argument is "baccarat is a house-banked game with a house advantage, everyone knows you can't mark the cards to gain an advantage over the casino, and while Ivey didn't actually mark the cards himself, he came up with a scheme that had the exact same effect".

And the background of this is that gambling contracts (at least legal ones) carry the same implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing as any other contract. You aren't allowed to take actions that, while not spelled out in the contract, have the effect of depriving the other side of the benefit of its bargain. That's black letter contract law both here and in the UK.

I think going in Ivey had less than a 10 percent chance of getting his money.

Saratoga_Mike
12-20-2016, 04:26 PM
Famed poker pro with ‘remarkable’ $9.6 million scheme has to pay it back, judge rules

“In July 2012, Phil Ivey walked into the Borgata Hotel Casino & Spa in Atlantic City, N. J. Over the next 17 hours, he would become nearly $4.8 million richer. A gambler by profession, Ivey billed himself as the “Tiger Woods” of poker; he had won more than $6 million from several tours on the World Series of Poker and another $19 million through years of online poker. But Ivey was not playing poker on that day in July. His winning spree came from baccarat — a game of chance associated with high rollers and would-be James Bonds.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/12/20/famed-poker-pro-with-remarkable-9-6-million-scheme-has-to-pay-it-back-judge-rules/?utm_term=.a64d60736e63

davew
09-30-2017, 08:26 AM
Borgata wins case and Ivey ordered to return money

Borgata also suing card manufacturer Gemaco for the loss..


http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/22085-court-battle-unfolds-over-cards-used-by-poker-legend-phil-ivey-in-baccarat-sessions

Valuist
07-09-2018, 02:54 PM
Casinos are so dirty. Just a free roll for them. If Ivey loses, they keep the money. Ivey wins so they refused to pay. Scumbags.