why i'm losing interest in racing

[acorn54]

as some of you know i have been delving into the game of poker.
this has given me some observations about why horserace betting is not going to gain in popularity
in racing you are competing for the money against tens of thousands of other people, with the bulk of the money being bet by people who process the information intelligently
in poker you are only competing against 6-10 people giving you a much greater liklihood to be one of players to come out ahead if you educate yourself on the game.
i'll probably still bet a few dollars in the horseracing game but i'm not as interested in the game as i previously was.
acorn (guy)

[kingfin66]

IMHO it is much more difficult to come out ahead in poker. If you are learning the game and playing low stakes, you really can't expect to win much in a playing session. You also run the risk of playing against poor players who won't fold bad hands and can outdraw you. If you are playing higher stakes, you are playing (theoretically anyway) against higher caliber players and must capitalize on their mistakes to win. Unfortunately, the higher the level, the more money at stake and the fewer the mistakes.

In horse racing, the vast majority of the players; the tens of thousands, make no effort to practice their craft and learn about the game.

Personally, I think both games are great.

[acorn54]

hi kingfin
my brother asked me a simple question yesterday;"to name someone who makes a living from horserace betting ?". in my 25 years of interest in the horses i have not met anyone or heard of anyone making a steady living at horseracing.
but in poker i can name a few and i have only been introduced to the game for under 2 weeks. people like gus hansen and sammy farrah, sammy chan, lederer and his sister.
acorn (guy)

[kingfin66]

Those are some big names you're throwing out there. There probably are many more pro poker players than horse players, but it takes a long time to get to be a pro. The guys you named are on TV all the time. There are probably many more lesser name, but still very talented players. Poker is very enjoyable to play, but hard to win at against good, or sometimes even bad, players.

[BETKING]

Acorn54,

What are you studying. Do you have any recomendation on books are web sites. I might be interested in looking into playing a little poker.

BETKING

[Dave Schwartz]

I have an old friend that has made his living playing poker since the mid-'70s. Back then he made a small living playing $3-6 hold-em, now he makes a decent living playing $10-20.

My point is that it took him 20 years to develop the skill to step up to the $10-20 level.

This may sound snobby, but I assure you it is not meant that way. As one who played SOME significant casino poker many years ago I can tell you that the element you have to mix with is not pleasant, especially at the lower levels.


Best of luck to you in whatever you do. Just know that neither is easy, but while poker is probably the easier game to beat it may well be harder to "make a living."


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[sq764]

I must say that once I dedicated to profiting at poker, it's almost higher on the prioritylist than racing for me.

and the key to poker is PATIENCE... If you play t oo many hands, you are going to lose over the longrun. If you can wait and fold over and over until you get a good situation, you can certainly profit.

I play $1/$2 tables, with $40.. If I double it, I cash out. If I lose half, I cash out. The key for me is cashing out the entire amount after each 'session'.. This week, I have deposited $240 and cashed out for $434. Not a fortune, but profit nonetheless.

So, after playing horses for 15 years, I must admit that poker has a LOT less variables involved than horses. I have found myself playing the races less and less and focusing more on consistently profiting from these poker sessions.

[takeout]

Originally posted by sq764

and the key to poker is PATIENCE... If you play t oo many hands, you are going to lose over the longrun. If you can wait and fold over and over until you get a good situation, you can certainly profit.

That sounds a lot like horse betting to me. :D

[hurrikane]

curious if everyone is playing online and what sites are you using.

[sq764]

I play at Ultimatebet.com.

[acorn54]

Originally posted by BETKING
Acorn54,

What are you studying. Do you have any recomendation on books are web sites. I might be interested in looking into playing a little poker.

BETKING

hi bet king
if you go to the newsgroup "rec.gambling.poker" you will be finding plenty of info.
as for books i am reading lou krieger's "hold-em excellence", it is considered one of the better poker books for texas holdem.
i just started playing at "party poker.com", on the internet for play money. last week i started with a fictitious bankroll of $1000 and am now up to $3300 with just 1 or 2 hours of playing daily. it is a $5/$10 game.
from what the pro's on rec. poker say, low limit games provide fertile ground and alot of folks bet as if it is play money they are betting with.
imho, i think horseplayers will have no problem at all with a transition to poker. as the pre-requisites for good poker playing are the same skills as for horse-betting. (good with numbers and calculation, good memorization skills, and quick decision making.

[Que]

Having played some Poker before, here's my best advice for those just starting out. As you learn the game, concentrate your play on the weekends--especially following a pay day, i.e. after the 15th or the end of the month. Keep track of how much you won or lost on what day of the week/month, and I assure you that you will find a pattern. If you play conservatively, yet very agressively on these key days, it will be like taking candy from a baby. Also, if you are playing at a table where people keep reaching into their wallets to buy 20 more dollars worth of chips then don't leave--those people would be better off just giving you $10 and keeping the other $10 for themselves--otherwise there's a 99% probability they will lose the entire 20. (However, you will need to get over the feeling of taking money from people that probably can't afford to lose it.) Also, watch out for husband and wife teams, especially if she's wearing a low-cut blouse, or she tells you its her birthday or anniversary. If this happens, and they are winning then go to another table; otherwise you need to realize that they are betting in tandem, which is a significant advantage. For example, you only get to play one hand and your raises are limited to $10, but they get to play two hands and get to raise $20 at a time. Finally, never play no-limit poker--it's a fun game to watch but not to play. Most of all, have fun and with a little bit of knowledge you should make some good money at the same time.

Que.

(Oh... also update your life insurance policy, because the second hand smoke will kill you.)

[Tatetytiffany]

Whats more exciting, AA in the hole before the flop in a holdem game or a 10-1 shot driving the length of the stretch to get up by a nose. Excitement can be found in both games. You all remember we are only around for so long so you gotta enjoy every day you can. Best of luck to you all.

[Buddha]

Originally posted by hurrikane@HTR
curious if everyone is playing online and what sites are you using.

I too play on Ultimatebet. I think is the best interface/software for online poker.

[Tuffmug]

Horseracing IS POKER! The trainers have "tells" that are even more obvious and consistent than those in a poker game and there is more "DEAD" money in horseracing than in poker. It takes study and patience but you must be open to what is really happening and ignore most all the books and advice by the "experts" who are blowing smoke up the ass of the public. There are grains of truth in all the books and all the methods but each is too narrow to encompass this game. Take a bit from here and a bit from there and develop a picture of each horse and then of the whole race.
Develop a healthy skeptisim about the "numbers" and the opinions of the racing press (these guys are pathetic!). There is no magic system to beat the races without you having to use that gray matter between your ears!

Just my opinion.

[superfecta]

Originally posted by hurrikane@HTR
curious if everyone is playing online and what sites are you using. I play party poker.com.Up to 5k in play money,been playing about 8 months.Was playing real money,started with 50 bucks ran it up to 160 at one table,then after five hands,lost most of it,due to the river.Had the nuts till that last card.Five hands,IN A ROW.Never had that much bad luck in one day at the track much less in 20 minutes.

[kingfin66]

Originally posted by superfecta
I play party poker.com.Up to 5k in play money,been playing about 8 months.Was playing real money,started with 50 bucks ran it up to 160 at one table,then after five hands,lost most of it,due to the river.Had the nuts till that last card.Five hands,IN A ROW.Never had that much bad luck in one day at the track much less in 20 minutes.

That's called low limit No Foldem Holdem. It really sucks when people don't know the concept of folding. I guess in the long run you win and they lose, but it sure hurts when you get burned.

[acorn54]

Originally posted by Que
. (However, you will need to get over the feeling of taking money from people that probably can't afford to lose it.) Que.



don't we take money from people in horserace betting that can't afford it? only difference is the anonymity.
acorn (guy)

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by acorn54
in racing you are competing for the money against tens of thousands of other people...

Actually,the take-out has more impact on your ability to show a profit then any of the bettors.
It's impossible for mortal man or woman to overcome the take-out.

Joe M

[sq764]

This is true... The takeout in most poker sit-n-go tournaments is 10%, so it's a lot more reasonable than horseracing.

[hurrikane]

Joe,

you know I'm going to disagree. It's just not true. I know because I am not immortal and have been beating the take for over 4 yrs now. When I played full time in the 70s I was beating the take then.

There are others on this board who I believe beat the take and I could be wrong but I don't thing they are immortal either. However I have to admit I have not met them and some may in fact be Gods.

I am sure some think they are Gods. :D

Nice showing in the CCC by the way

[Bruddah]

I have run large poker tournaments for Casinos. Dealt poker and played poker professionally.

My best advice to you is, just enjoy the game. I have seen literally thousands come and go trying to make a living playing poker. Some last more than 30 days because they have some skills and a larger than average bankroll. However most are continually tapped out and looking for someone to stake them. They owe everyone, then they evaporate from the scene never to be seen or heard from again.

I will also say, without hesitation, for the most part, most of these people are lazy bums. They would love it if you would support their gambling habit. These are not your typical next door neighbors, nor would you want them to be.

Poker is a easy game to learn but it takes a lifetime to become a master player.

[cj]

Originally posted by formula_2002
Actually,the take-out has more impact on your ability to show a profit then any of the bettors.
It's impossible for mortal man or woman to overcome the take-out.

Joe M

Wrong. Just because you can't do it doesn't mean others can not do it.

[Light]

Acorn

Poker is not necessarily easier than horseracing. It will probably take you as much effort in poker as it does in horseracing to be successful. But the key in either case is to like what you're doing,whatever it is or you wont be successful. That includes enjoying the learning experience,however discouraging it may seem.

[acorn54]

Originally posted by Light
Acorn

Poker is not necessarily easier than horseracing. It will probably take you as much effort in poker as it does in horseracing to be successful. But the key in either case is to like what you're doing,whatever it is or you wont be successful. That includes enjoying the learning experience,however discouraging it may seem.

hi light
that was the main reason i got interested in poker -to learn something new.
it seems you have losing streaks in poker just as in racing. yesterday i only got a few hands to play to the river in 3 hours of play. was up from 1000 starting bankroll last week (play money), to 3300 friday then lost some $700 on saturday.
so poker has it's ups and downs.
acorn (guy)

[thoroughbred]

It doesn't take rocket science to realize that the way to make a profit is to play the gambling games with the odds in your favor.

Horse racing is no different.

I'm surprised that in comparing horse racing with another activity, only poker has been used for comparison. There is one gambling activity, that, with some effort, you can play with the odds in your favor.

That game is Blackjack. It has been mathematically proven, that by doing things like counting cards, and adjusting your play accordingly, you will be playing, at times, with the odds in your favor. (See Thorpe's book)

Of course, that takes effort and practice. However there are no IF's or BUT's about it. You can gamble, in Blackjack, and have the odds in your favor.

Of course, once the casinos realized this, (they didn't until recent years), they have been changing some of the Blackjack rules to counter this "odds in your favor" fact. But they haven't completely countered it yet.

[Buckeye]

Nice in theory, how many casinos are owned by blackjack players?

Answer, they ALL are. It's their game. To win at blackjack against the casino you need:

(1) Rules that give you a chance
(2) Knowledge of strategy and counting
(3) The physical actual ability to implement your plan.
(4) BANKROLL
(5) A casino that let's you do it

Good luck.

[Latin Qtr]

Black Jack cannot be beaten as a regular activity. Thorpe's book
has been found to be critically wrong many years ago and even
if one "COULD" beat it, one can't as a practical issue. At the most
one can come within 2 points of the house and with suberb
money management one can forestall financial ruin.

[thoroughbred]

Originally posted by Latin Qtr
Black Jack cannot be beaten as a regular activity. Thorpe's book
has been found to be critically wrong many years ago and even
if one "COULD" beat it, one can't as a practical issue. At the most
one can come within 2 points of the house and with suberb
money management one can forestall financial ruin.

Can you give me a reference to look up to read about where Thorpe was "being critically wrong?"

So far, that which I've been able to check, in his book, seems to be correct.

If you have such a reference, I'd very much appreciate it, as it could prove to be very important to me.

Thanks.

[thoroughbred]

I just located a great site that explains just about every aspect of Blackjack:

http://www.blackjack-student.co.uk/guide/beginnings-strategy.asp

Note: I found that at one point, clicking "Next" on their page stopped working, but that proved to NOT be a problem, as it is possible to get to the next part of the presentation by clicking on the choices on the menu at the left of their pages.

[superfecta]

Originally posted by kingfin66
That's called low limit No Foldem Holdem. It really sucks when people don't know the concept of folding. I guess in the long run you win and they lose, but it sure hurts when you get burned. thats the beauty of the game tho,the other players were beat till the river card,they were too dumb to know it,and they were lucky enough to hit on the last card.Most frustrating was there was only one out and the other player hits it.
That game,much like Horseracing,there are many ways to play the game and what works for you may not work for me.And what worked in the last game may not work in this hand or ever again.

[acorn54]

Originally posted by thoroughbred
It doesn't take rocket science to realize that the way to make a profit is to play the gambling games with the odds in your favor.

Horse racing is no different.

I'm surprised that in comparing horse racing with another activity, only poker has been used for comparison. There is one gambling activity, that, with some effort, you can play with the odds in your favor.

That game is Blackjack.
Of course, once the casinos realized this, (they didn't until recent years), they have been changing some of the Blackjack rules to counter this "odds in your favor" fact. But they haven't completely countered it yet.

the only game practically speaking you can beat is poker.
if you win consistently in a casino eventually the casino catches on and out you go and they tell other casinos to watch out for you
i think their point of view is that all their games should remain as games of chance.
poker, the casino's don't care how much or who wins as they get their rake
acorn (guy)

[kingfin66]

Originally posted by acorn54
the only game practically speaking you can beat is poker.

acorn (guy)

Acorn,

I respectfully disagree with your statement. Any game that you play against other players can be beat as long as you are better than the other players. These games are: Poker; sports betting; and horse racing. Am I missing any others?

[Buddha]

Originally posted by kingfin66
Acorn,

I respectfully disagree with your statement. Any game that you play against other players can be beat as long as you are better than the other players. These games are: Poker; sports betting; and horse racing. Am I missing any others?


I think he basically means, and i agree also, is that the casino doesnt care if you win, you arent taking their money, but the money of other players. the casino gets their cut out of each hand, whereas blackjack or other games, the money while coming from other players, is actually coming from the casino itself.

[Buckeye]

In general, "The Game of Life" is a gamble, coming down from the trees and all-- It's programed into us. I think what Kingfin66 said is correct, the games that are beatable are those that include opponents who are potentially weaker and for whatever reason, are willing to play. Casino games do not fit this definiton any more than State Lotteries do. Anything can happen with the right amount of "luck"-- but that's not what we're talking about.

[Holy Bull]

This thread is a bit disturbing to me. Horse racing is losing a generation of customers it shoudl be getting to poker and now even existing horse players want to be poker players.

I do know several "professional" poker players and they all have 1 thing in common...they've all asked to borrow money. Beating a 2-4 game online is fine and dandy if you enjoy sitting around for hours folding hands to make 1 or 2 big bets an hour. Good luck finding 10-20 games or higher where the play is soft enough to beat the rake and have a decent positive EV. I do play poker for fun but if you are looking to make a buck, horses, sports and blackjack are all vastly superior.

[hurrikane]

The casino doesn't care if you win at horses either. Neither does the track. As long as they get thier take.

One thing to keep in mind. You are playing 1/2 poker. When the stakes go up so does the level of competition.

One thing about the horses..if you are betting 2.00 or 200.00 the competition remains the same.

Not sure what level you play at but I"m guessing if you play a much higher level....you will get you shorts handed to you.

If you just play for recreation..as I do..no big deal. I wouldn't feel good playing at a high stakes table....I just don't play that well and don't want to spend the time learning.

Also....of the millions and millions of poker players in the world how many do you think really make money. If the WSOP is any indication...not many..likely less than horse racing.

[Erudito]

Future Markets and Stocks are the other game which can be beatable besides poker, sports betting and horse racing.
Poker is not as easy to win at higher limits. I played at high limit games before, and these games tend to be very tight and aggressive. Even the loose players, no fold'em player, will play very aggressive with bad starting hands. You can go through a roller coaster ride if you decide to play at lower limits with lots of no fold'em players. I only play poker when the CNE opens in Toronto, I cannot be bothered to drive 1.5 hr to the casino and when you arrive you will have to wait in a long waiting list. The only poker game available here in Ontario, Canada is Texas Hold'em.

[Bruddah]

Take a $1000 bankroll into a $10-$20 Texas Hold'em game. If you make a rack of red ($500) get up and get out. If you make two racks and aren't out of the game yet...You are an idiot. Especially, if you have played more than a 5 hour session. You are an "Action Junky" and the real pros know, your quick score will be coming back to them, plus the rest in your wallet.

I usually play for much higher stakes, but for the average player, this is the level, I would recommend. Stear clear of NO LIMIT games until your skills of observation and reading other players are honed to perfection. Don't play higher than $10-$20 Hold'em because the real professional player and teams(sharks) will eat you alive.

Only play white chip games as entertainment, because you will be playing against players who rely on luck and not skill. Besides, you can't beat the rake in anything less than $4-$8. Forget white chip games if you want to make a living at poker.

Now back to my opening paragraph. If you take a $1000 bankroll to a game and make $1000...you have made even money. Anything else is less than even money, no matter how you look at it. My question to you, why does horse racing look so terrible. Most of you wouldn't bet a horse, unless he is 4-1 or better. Go put your $1000 at risk on an even money favorite, in a 5 horse field. You have a better chance to make a $1000 and you can do it minutes, rather than hours in a smoke filled room.

[Valuist]

I'm so tired of hearing the criticism of sports like horse racing and baseball because they are too "slow". Do we have to constantly be on the edge of our seats every second of the day? Personally I find the NBA boring; except for this year, I would bet that the team that was "expected" to win the championship has probably won 80% of the time the past 2 decades. Poker? I have far greater respect for professional horse bettors than I do for professional poker players. Steven Crist said in his recent book, that grinding out steady profits in poker wasn't as enjoyable as breaking even at the track.

[saratoga guy]

Originally posted by acorn54
hi kingfin
my brother asked me a simple question yesterday;"to name someone who makes a living from horserace betting ?". in my 25 years of interest in the horses i have not met anyone or heard of anyone making a steady living at horseracing.
but in poker i can name a few and i have only been introduced to the game for under 2 weeks. people like gus hansen and sammy farrah, sammy chan, lederer and his sister.
acorn (guy)

I'd be willing to guess there are more people making a living wagering on horses than on poker. But why would you hear of them?

You've heard of the poker players because they regularly enter and win televised tournaments. There are no such high-profile venues for horse-players.

The "whales" we all read about are guys who are making a living at racing. That's what has generated the whole controversy about rebate shops. These "whales" are looking for an edge of perhaps 2-5%. So, if they push $8 mil through the windows in a year and can eek out a 3% profit -- they've just made almost a quarter of a mil as their annual income.

And when one of these whales is getting a 10% rebate -- he can actually end the year BEHIND on his wagering -- and still manage that 3% return!

[acorn54]

Originally posted by Holy Bull
This thread is a bit disturbing to me. Horse racing is losing a generation of customers it shoudl be getting to poker and now even existing horse players want to be poker players.

I do know several "professional" poker players and they all have 1 thing in common...they've all asked to borrow money. Beating a 2-4 game online is fine and dandy if you enjoy sitting around for hours folding hands to make 1 or 2 big bets an hour. Good luck finding 10-20 games or higher where the play is soft enough to beat the rake and have a decent positive EV. I do play poker for fun but if you are looking to make a buck, horses, sports and blackjack are all vastly superior.

as far as playing only two hands per hour. this is true,but how many bets per hour do you get in racing, your fortunate if you find two good bets per day at a racetrack
it might be true you can't find 10-20 games that are soft, but i don't know as i have yet to play with real money, however from the poker newsgroup that i frequent with experienced players, they say you can find plenty of soft poker games at the 2-4 tables and lower.
acorn(guy)

[Tuffmug]

Acorn54,

Best of luck playing poker! I'll stick with the ponies.

[Holy Bull]

Making money gambling is about volume.
If you are adequately bankrolled and have a solid game, you can generate thousands in profitable volume per hour even if you only play 2 or 3 races an hour

[JustMissed]

Originally posted by Bruddah
Now back to my opening paragraph. If you take a $1000 bankroll to a game and make $1000...you have made even money. Anything else is less than even money, no matter how you look at it. My question to you, why does horse racing look so terrible. Most of you wouldn't bet a horse, unless he is 4-1 or better. Go put your $1000 at risk on an even money favorite, in a 5 horse field. You have a better chance to make a $1000 and you can do it minutes, rather than hours in a smoke filled room.

Bruddah, you won't get much respect around here with statements like that although there are many, many excellant players who play that way and are profitable.

Sometimes around here it seems that if you're not betting a zillon races a year at odds higher than 10-1, you're some sort of "girlie-man".

I always thought highly of Steve Davidowitz's recommended way to play of using half your bankroll for "prime bet", i.e. $500 to win on a 6-5 shot where your win percentage is better than 60% . The other half divided among exotics, long shots and entertainment bets.

Davidowitz liked to bet small amounts for entertainment he said to feed his need for action and not get hurt too bad. Not a bad idea for those guys who need the action.

JM

[acorn54]

another interesting difference between horseracing and poker are the so-called experts in the field
in poker the experts actually do make their living from playing poker whereas in horse racing the "experts" such as andy beyer, steve christ, et al make their living from aspects other than horserace betting ,hmm. must mean something

[Valuist]

I know a couple full time horse bettors. I don't know any full time poker players. I'm guessing that Moneymaker guy must be, because he's on ESPN more than Randy Johnson or A-Rod.

[sq764]

They just mentioned last night that since Moneymaker won the 2003 WSOP, he has not even cashed once in any of the events following that..

One hit wonder??

[cj]

He wasn't a pro before last year's event.

[sq764]

I don't even think he's a pro now. I think he's an amateur that had an amazing week and has quickly come back to reality.

[brdman12]

For me poker is fun to play, but very boring to watch. When the texas holdem phase wires down and the ratings go down, horse racing will still be there.

[sq764]

I don't agree with you there. I think poker has been going on online for much longer than people even know..

And I think the reason they have staying power is they offer a low takeout (10%-ish) and they also all offer deposit bonuses, bonus cash, freerolls, rewards for frequent players, etc..

Gee, racetracks might be able to learn a thing or two from them!

[DealMe3]

You asked for a few names of people that make a steady living at horse racing? Here ya go, Tom Anslie, Michael Pizzolla, James Lehane, Mark Crammer, etc. . .

I've also met a few people at Arlington Park, and Arlington Trackside that make a steady income at horse racing, and they will never publish their methods.

Things have been coming together for myself, and I'm beginning to make a steady income. I haven't quit driving a cab, but if things continue as they have at the track, I'll make the big leap soon.

Horse racing and poker playing require some study and a great deal of "on-the-job training." The competition in poker playing will be tougher because of the large amount of capital required. Whereas in horse racing you don't need a whole lot. And the thousands of numbnuts at the track, drinking $5.00 a bottle beers, won't be looking to take your bankroll, as with poker playing.

In any case, good luck with you decision.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Names....I know Scott McMannis has made his living via wagering plus his services on the Chicago circuit for over 20 years now.

[acorn54]

Originally posted by Steve'StatMan'BTW
Names....I know Scott McMannis has made his living via wagering plus his services on the Chicago circuit for over 20 years now.

well the 64 thousand question then is ; what are these people who make a living at the racetrack doing that none of here on this pa board can't do?
and please don't tell me they have to keep their methods a secret. the professional poker players have no qualms with passing along their wisdom and techniques to other poker players.
acorn (guy)

[freeneasy]

iam not losing interest in the game, iam just losing money. but my loses have been consideraly less and my winnings have been getting consistantly better as ive been learning to teach myself all over again.
seriously tho you cant play this game and expect to win when your attitude has been waning away. if you dont think this game can be beat then maybe you need to redirect your thinking as to why you dont think this game can be beat. good chance you will see that its not that this game cant be beat but rather its just that in all this time i havent been able to beat it and from there i guess it would have to be a matter of finding out why you havent been able to beat this game. maybe youve been trying to shortcut a few edges here and there and hope that by doing so it aint going to make that much of a negative difference and if that happens to be the case then iam here to tell you that the minute anybody thinks they can shortcut their way thru this game, like me and ten thousand others have tried to do, then they are going to be in for a big fat letdown. so until you develope a consistantly steadfast determination to treat this game with the respect that it demands then all your going to do is flounder around until it swallows you up. same with poker. hard words, but those be the facts.

[Holy Bull]

Originally posted by acorn54
well the 64 thousand question then is ; what are these people who make a living at the racetrack doing that none of here on this pa board can't do?
and please don't tell me they have to keep their methods a secret. the professional poker players have no qualms with passing along their wisdom and techniques to other poker players.
acorn (guy)

There are many pros here sharing knowledge regularly. As for these precious poker authors, at this point they are doing better from book sales and none really have audited records of their play. Also poker players have horrendoesly big egos thus necessitating them to write to get others to see just how smart they are.

The bottom line is however, most are going to lose in both games no matter what they are taught or read due to lack of discipline and talent.

[KingChas]

OH,Poker the new fad thanks to ESPN.Young'uns we have been playing this for years on weekends.Blackjack too.Oh you need skill and luck.The same as horseracing-the best horse doesn't always win.Betting cards is highly luck as if you start out winning and build the pot you can go for blood (% or bluff).Any type of gambling when you get the house money go for the kill.You cannot control what card you are getting next.Sorry to bring you all down but on a good and lucky day I could be the Poker Champion Of The World.Game isn't that hard to figure out.80% luck=20% skill.I'll Check.What wisdom do you need unless you are playing the basic 5-card draw?Pair of anything in hole Texas hold'em?

[Duns Scotus]

In my experience, poker is a pretty good game to make pretty fair, grind-it-out, money. And one gets what a lot of gamblers need, fast, steady, hand-by-hand "answers". No more half-hour or simulcast ten minute waits for results (where you're generally too busy riffling through your stuff for the page that gets you to the next race you may want to bet, and scarcely see the race that's running on the screen). As a kid, I spent a profitable year as a dealer (different hotel every week) for a high stakes game played chiefly by garmentos, men whom the police invariably describe as having "no known means of visible support," and the occasional newbie, who was invaribly the sheep in the game. It was fun, I got great tips, it sure beat working in a supermarket, and I learned a couple things:

1. Never play above your level--both as to bankroll and as to competence.
2. It is a very hard game. The vital ingredient is a short-term capacity to focus the mind very intensely hand after hand.
3. Bluffing skills are fine but overrated. The big gift is the gift to "intimidate"--that is, somehow convince the other players in the game that no matter what they do, you are going to take their money by the end of the night. This isn't "tough guy-tough lady stuff". Wally Peepers can do it. Not to go all hocus pocus, but it's a gift, an attitude that starts to permeate through the forebrains of your group within the first five or so hands.

To me, finding your level is the most important thing. If you're a competent 10-20 player then you ought to be a steady winner at 1-2 or 5. Play against the 1-2-5 players--you'll beat them consistently enough to make a small profit.

Personally, I no longer play (concentration skills and interest shot for many years). I LIKE the stretch I get between the five or six races I bet every day. But for those who're drawn to the game, these are my not very original thoughts on how to approach play.

[Dave Schwartz]

Duns,

Your post might serve as a great reminder of what we must do to win at just about anything.

Well, said.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[acorn54]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Duns Scotus
[B]
1. Never play above your level--both as to bankroll and as to competence.
2. It is a very hard game. The vital ingredient is a short-term capacity to focus the mind very intensely hand after hand.
3. Bluffing skills are fine but overrated. The big gift is the gift to "intimidate"--that is, somehow convince the other players in the game that no matter what they do, you are going to take their money by the end of the night. This isn't "tough guy-tough lady stuff". Wally Peepers can do it. Not to go all hocus pocus, but it's a gift, an attitude that starts to permeate through the forebrains of your group within the first five or so hands.

To me, finding your level is the most important thing. If you're a competent 10-20 player then you ought to be a steady winner at 1-2 or 5. Play against the 1-2-5 players--you'll beat them consistently enough to make a small profit.

duns scotus
thanks for your experience and insight into the game of poker.
i am finding what you say very true in my recent foray into the poker world.
acor(guy)n

[Steve 'StatMan']

Originally posted by Duns Scotus
To me, finding your level is the most important thing. If you're a competent 10-20 player then you ought to be a steady winner at 1-2 or 5. Play against the 1-2-5 players--you'll beat them consistently enough to make a small profit.


Poker's version of the raced into shape horse dropping in class for the win!

[Duns Scotus]

Thanks for the kind words about my thought on poker.

Another part of this thread is more or less capsuled in the perennial "can you really make a profit at the races and if so, why ain't I, I'm a good player?"

For what it's worth, I have known people who have make a living (a not very large living) betting horses over many years. Almost to a person, they work very, very long hours to do so, are obsessed with racing to the exclusion of almost everything else, are "solitaries" even when they have families (excluding, maybe, the arb/hedge/whale/rebate folks who are a relatively new phenomenon). If one fits this profile, along with the requisite alertness and willingness to learn new things, I think you almost "have to" be able to grind out a profitable year--every year.

But except for the freaky year, the "living" seldom goes much more than 50--obviously, I'm only speaking about people I know. And, most of the time, it's less than that.

I've long since been in the "if so, why ain't I?" subset. These winners aren't better cappers than me, the thinking goes, why am I one year nicely up, one break-even or close, and one down? Swallows of Capistrano stuff. Well, the steady winners work harder at it--that's their positive. "My" positive is that there are about ten things I'd as soon be doing, and do (job, family, reading books, messing around, than spending the time required to be a full-time winner. Gambling can be a job, a very hermetic one, and more power to the consistent winners. Or it can be a terrrifically fun hobby. I'm in the second group--love the days when I have to sign things, but don't give much of a rat's when I don't.

Of course, some polymath'll write in about his or her clockwork 100K years earned at the track between winning a Pulitzer, deep correspondence with Stephen Hawking, and what they're doing with their MacArthur Foundation "genius" bucks.

[penguinfan]

Don't believe for one second that the higher the limits means the better the players, it just means they have more money. Most of you are probably not farmilliar with the daily and weekly freerolls at PokerStars, in short if you finish at the final table during one of the daily tournaments you get a seat at the Saturday game which is worth money if you get to that final table, bear in mind the daily game have about 5000 or more players in them, most of them complete morons, well I know a kid who had little money to his name so he played in the free games and won the Saturday game 2 weeks in a row which means he had to beat a field of 5K people twice in two weeks THEN win the Saturday game, so I don't think you would consider him a bad player just because he plays as low limits, conversly I have seen people at $50/100 tables rifle through chips like it was no big deal, and to them it probably wasn't.

Read the book "Winning Low Limit Hold Em" by Lee Jones who happend to be the card room manager at PokerStars and if you understand it come back here and tell me which game you think is easier to make a profit, not so much a living, but a profit.
This discussion is much like religion or politics, reguardless of facts you will not change anyones mind or position on the matter.

Penguinfan

[JustMissed]

JDS, You should lie down and rest-you've been dead since 1308. Hey, I didn't know they played poker back then. hehehe

JM


"John Duns Scotus
John Duns Scotus (1265/66-1308) was one of the most important and influential philosopher-theologians of the High Middle Ages. His brilliantly complex and nuanced thought, which earned him the nickname "the Subtle Doctor," left a mark on discussions of such disparate topics as the semantics of religious language, the problem of universals, divine illumination, and the nature of human freedom. This essay first lays out what is known about Scotus's life and the dating of his works. It then offers an overview of some of his key positions in four main areas of philosophy: natural theology, metaphysics, the theory of knowledge, and ethics and moral psychology."

[Duns Scotus]

Hi JM,

Seriously, I probably should lie down. Don't know much about these forums--a friend mentioned it, and I wandered over from the Derby Digest, vowing to be a lurker as I was over there for a few years. But there, as here, I just started yapping.

Duns Scotus was also a pretty fair NY bred fifteen (?) or so years ago. The brilliant guy for whom he was named has never been canonized and neither was the horse.

Maybe the charm of three with me?

Hi penguinfan,

I think you're wrong, at least about a person's capacity to change/modify their views. Walt Whitman gives me the out: "do I contradict myself--very well, then I contradict myself". Shouldn't really have used quotes, it's from memory. Agree (have seen) many incredibly bad players in high stakes games (ego thing I guess). My tip was to find out how good you are and then grind it out against poorer players. Build from there. Nothing remotely original with the thought.

Best,

[BETKING]

acorn54,

You are right about the beauty of Poker. I have been playing at Party Poker and have avg a $1000 a day profit for 5 days running. It has taken a lot of study and fortitude, but it can be done. It is a great game to grind and for an old horseplayer its a piece of cake.

BETKING

[Faster]

DealMe3 said

"And the thousands of numbnuts at the track, drinking $5.00 a bottle beers, won't be looking to take your bankroll, as with poker playing."

So then, what is the profile of a pro player?

See if they run...
faster

[MinnJonny]

Originally posted by Steve'StatMan'BTW
Names....I know Scott McMannis has made his living via wagering plus his services on the Chicago circuit for over 20 years now.

Sure :rolleyes:

[Valuist]

You made THAT your first ever post? We're anxiously awaiting more nuggets.....:rolleyes:

[MinnJonny]

Originally posted by Valuist
You made THAT your first ever post? We're anxiously awaiting more nuggets.....:rolleyes:

Thank you for the kind welcome Scott McMannis

[NoDayJob]

Originally posted by acorn54
well the 64 thousand question then is ; what are these people who make a living at the racetrack doing that none of here on this pa board can't do?
and please don't tell me they have to keep their methods a secret. the professional poker players have no qualms with passing along their wisdom and techniques to other poker players.
acorn (guy)

Probably nothing. Most people for one reason or another just lack the discipline necessary to become a winning player. They don't get up every day with the thought, "Failure means the rent doesn't get paid", et cetera. There is more horse racing information available than ever before; so my conclusion is, it's how the winning player uses it and his or her mindset in this business. This applies to any business or profession too.

NDJ

[Steve 'StatMan']

To clear up any confusion, I was sitting with Scott at AP this afternoon, so he hasn't made any posts on this site that I am aware of.

[MinnJonny]

Originally posted by Steve'StatMan'BTW
To clear up any confusion, I was sitting with Scott at AP this afternoon, so he hasn't made any posts on this site that I am aware of.

Are you joined at the hip with Scott McMannis?Perhaps he responded when you went to the washroom.

[charleslanger]

That last post confirms the previous one though-- and gives you away :rolleyes:

[MinnJonny]

Originally posted by charleslanger
That last post confirms the previous one though-- and gives you away :rolleyes:

uh huh really
:eek: :rolleyes: