pegasus day at gulfstream

[Rollingpk3]

cheapest gen admission ticket that day is $100

[Rollingpk3]

http://www.drf.com/news/high-prices-tickets-pegasus-world-cup

[EMD4ME]

cheapest gen admission ticket that day is $100

I'll be playing Sam Houston that day and NYRA if they don't cancel.

Take your stupid day and shove it.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

Not sure what the undercard is supposed to look like, but I think I remember something about a $400k stakes in there. Still, at that price point that is insane. Not sure I would go even if I lived around the corner from there.

[dilanesp]

Gulfstream, since remodel, is a very small facility.

Scarcity is the key to high prices. This is why professional sports franchises are shrinking their stadiums and ballparks.

[classhandicapper]

I have a funny feeling a few of the horses we consider major contenders for the BC Classic now are going to be over the top by then. Even though a lot of the top horses are still relatively fresh, I've seen some evidence that more horses than you would expect tail off a bit after getting 100% cranked for the Breeder's Cup races.

[thespaah]

Shocking.....$100 is absurd.

[rsetup]

Who cares? As long as they don't charge for their feed or surchage to bet, let those who feel the need to be seen deal with it.

[dilanesp]

I have a funny feeling a few of the horses we consider major contenders for the BC Classic now are going to be over the top by then. Even though a lot of the top horses are still relatively fresh, I've seen some evidence that more horses than you would expect tail off a bit after getting 100% cranked for the Breeder's Cup races.

Hard to know. Way back when, plenty of horses did fine in the winter after big Breeders' Cup races. Think Gate Dancer, Precisionist, Ferdinand, Great Communicator, etc. On the other hand, more recently that hasn't been the trend.

But that may just be a matter of trainer intention-- trainers don't care about winter stakes races and don't crank their horses for them. Bear in mind, it's quite possible that the entire thing about spacing races is BS-- the Triple Crown has been REALLY FORMFUL in the last 20 years or so, and those races are spaced 2 and 3 weeks apart. Trainers could have their horses ready if they wanted to; they just would prefer to maintain the fiction that their horses need more rest.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Charge $10,000 and run it at Calder

[Lemon Drop Husker]

This race, and race day, gets more absurd every time we get a report about the event.

[Tom]

Pegasus Day?
Sounds more like Pigeon Day.

And for 12 million bucks, couldn't they come up with an original name?

[onefast99]

After giving out about 2000 comps the track needs to make a few bucks. This should be a great card and I am sure most will be betting it!

[burnsy]

Pegasus Day?
Sounds more like Pigeon Day.

And for 12 million bucks, couldn't they come up with an original name?

Change it from "Pegasus Day" to "Bandit Day"..........Please leave your wallet at the gate.......General admission........$100......c'mon man! A pigeon can't even afford to crap there.

Hi Ho, Silver!

[chiguy]

cheapest gen admission ticket that day is $100

A business can charge what it wants but what is concerning here is that if this is successful look for this to become the new norm on big days.

[bobphilo]

cheapest gen admission ticket that day is $100

And that's just for general admission. Unless you just want to watch the races on the TV monitors, admission to the small grandstand goes for $180 with box seats at 220 bucks a head. Restaurant reservations will be $765. :faint:
I'm going to watch the race at Living Room Downs for free, where I won't get ripped of for food either.

[EMD4ME]

And that's just for general admission. Unless you just want to watch the races on the TV monitors, admission to the small grandstand goes for $180 with box seats at 220 bucks a head. Restaurant reservations will be $765. :faint:
I'm going to watch the race at Living Room Downs for free, where I won't get ripped of for food either.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Lemon Drop Husker]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Hells yeah.

Always a perfect 72 degrees. I'm 15 steps from a bathroom or a cocktail. Tote machine is open till seconds before the race, and I can quickly cancel a wager without needing Agnes to hopefully punch it in right. :bang:

Throw in the leather couches, the fact I can wear my lounge pants and a t-shirt, and it is a damn tough place to beat. :cool:

[EMD4ME]

I heard SRU downs is even better !

Smart man recently told me... they (people at the track) can only help YOU lose. They will never help you win.

1000000000000000% true.

Everyone (except for 2-3 players) I see at NYRA can only negatively impact my betting.

[dilanesp]

A business can charge what it wants but what is concerning here is that if this is successful look for this to become the new norm on big days.

It already is. The Derby and Preakness have charged big for decades, the Belmont for at least 20 years. Del Mar is always expensive and more so on Opening Day and for the Pacific Classic. Saratoga is expensive. And the Breeders' Cup ranges from pretty expensive to ridiculously expensive.

You don't get into the Stanley Cup Finals for the same price as a midweek Buffalo Sabres-Florida Panthers game. This isn't any different.

[bobphilo]

Ah for the days when I got to see Secretariat's, Seattle Slew's, and Affirmed/ Alydar's Belmonts for a 3 buck admission. Got there early and got to sit in the best seats in the house - front row grandstand, 16th pole.
That was before greed was king and the tracks were actually trying to grow racing.
One good thing about Belmont even today, they won't open up their beautiful infield where Ruffian is buried to a drunken rowdy mob

[clocker7]

Compared to Kanye West concert tickets in Key Arena going for 80 bucks nosebleed and 900 bucks floor, a screaming deal.

[bobphilo]

Compared to Kanye West concert tickets in Key Arena going for 80 bucks nosebleed and 900 bucks floor, a screaming deal.
Looks like I won't be going to either one. In the case of Kanye West, they'd have to pay me that much to attend.

[dilanesp]

Ah for the days when I got to see Secretariat's, Seattle Slew's, and Affirmed/ Alydar's Belmonts for a 3 buck admission. Got there early and got to sit in the best seats in the house - front row grandstand, 16th pole.
That was before greed was king and the tracks were actually trying to grow racing.
One good thing about Belmont even today, they won't open up their beautiful infield where Ruffian is buried to a drunken rowdy mob

In California this was never really true in my lifetime until the crowds declined. You always needed a reserved seat at the Santa Anita Handicap or a weekend card at Del Mar. Now, they weren't that expensive, but in those days field boxes for the Dodgers were $4.50 too.

General admission got you standing room at the big races.

[ultracapper]

Except for on this board, I haven't even seen a whisper about this race day.

Nowhere. Nothing, which is exactly what it's going to do for racing.

[ultracapper]

Gulfstream, since remodel, is a very small facility.

Scarcity is the key to high prices. This is why professional sports franchises are shrinking their stadiums and ballparks.

And demand.

[tanner12oz]

It already is. The Derby and Preakness have charged big for decades, the Belmont for at least 20 years. Del Mar is always expensive and more so on Opening Day and for the Pacific Classic. Saratoga is expensive. And the Breeders' Cup ranges from pretty expensive to ridiculously expensive.

You don't get into the Stanley Cup Finals for the same price as a midweek Buffalo Sabres-Florida Panthers game. This isn't any different.

preakness tix go up every year..have more then doubled in price since I started going when afleet Alex won. Honestly its a ripoff compared to toga and keeneland but is what it is

[Tom]

I can see the times for the race now:

23.3---46.4---117.2----149.3

[burnsy]

preakness tix go up every year..have more then doubled in price since I started going when afleet Alex won. Honestly its a ripoff compared to toga and keeneland but is what it is

Yeah, but those ticks include a concert and stuff on the infield. I saw ZZ Top the year Rachel won the Preakness. This is a joke......its not just entertainment you are wagering too. Like they don't make enough?

[letswastemoney]

I'm thankful I get in free at most racetracks as media, and that most press boxes have food.

If I didn't, that would be it. I'm not paying for parking fee, entrance fee, program fee, $5 soda, and who knows what else I'd need to buy. It's too much for the average guy.

[ronsmac]

Yeah, but those ticks include a concert and stuff on the infield. I saw ZZ Top the year Rachel won the Preakness. This is a joke......its not just entertainment you are wagering too. Like they don't make enough?The infield tickets are 60 if you buy them now and increase all the way up to 110 dollars the day of the Preakness. Not including the 20 bucks for the beer mug. That's a lot of money and it will only keep going up. Of course they can charge what people will pay but that doesn't make it right in my opinion.

[nearco]

If you want to go racing today at Far Hills, it's $200 a head plus $30 to park.
It has a capacity crowd every year.

http://www.farhillsrace.org/hospitality-opportunities/

[FakeNameChanged]

If you want to go racing today at Far Hills, it's $200 a head plus $30 to park.
It has a capacity crowd every year.

http://www.farhillsrace.org/hospitality-opportunities/

I have a semi-rich friend who's gone to these. He says it's mostly just a big party. Side bets are made with his circle for friends. He's never been to a thoroughbred racetrack the last time I spoke with him.

[dilanesp]

Yeah, but those ticks include a concert and stuff on the infield. I saw ZZ Top the year Rachel won the Preakness. This is a joke......its not just entertainment you are wagering too. Like they don't make enough?

If this is run like big days at Santa Anita (Gulfstream Park East's sister track), there will be live bands, food trucks, etc.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

If you want to go racing today at Far Hills, it's $200 a head plus $30 to park.
It has a capacity crowd every year.

http://www.farhillsrace.org/hospitality-opportunities/

They were suppose to have parimutuel wagering this year but Christie took too long to sign the bill. Pretty good chance they have it next year.

It is also a fund raiser for cancer research I believe, not for Stronach's pockets.

[bobphilo]

The infield tickets are 60 if you buy them now and increase all the way up to 110 dollars the day of the Preakness. Not including the 20 bucks for the beer mug. That's a lot of money and it will only keep going up. Of course they can charge what people will pay but that doesn't make it right in my opinion.

Great, 110 bucks for the worst place to watch the race. However, a great place for frat boys and sorority girls to get drunk, get stupid and get laid.

[bobphilo]

If you want to go racing today at Far Hills, it's $200 a head plus $30 to park.
It has a capacity crowd every year.

http://www.farhillsrace.org/hospitality-opportunities/

Sounds like a great way for the rich elite to keep out the middle class "riff raff" and "degenerate horseplayers".
God forbid they should let mere commoners mingle with their betters.

[nearco]

Sounds like a great way for the rich elite to keep out the middle class "riff raff" and "degenerate horseplayers".
God forbid they should let mere commoners mingle with their betters.

They get a crowd of 30,000+. I guess they could all be rich elite, though by the looks of the live feed it doesn't appear so.

A "regular" days racing in most countries costs $20+ just to get in the door. Like a mid week afternoon fixture at a not famous track. US horseplayers have been spoiled by the anomaly that is US racing where admission is either free or a negligible $2-$5. But one of the side effects of that is that it has created the illusion that because it's so cheap that, that it is not good value. It's psychological. People value stuff more the more it costs. Granted there is a price point and a sweet spot you have to find.

But any way, the point being made is that there is a good chance that Stronach will have a sell out crowd paying $100 each for his race in Jan. All you guys saying "that's crazy, nobody will pay that", I think you are going to be surprised.

[Tom]

If this is run like big days at Santa Anita (Gulfstream Park East's sister track), there will be live bands, food trucks, etc.

So they already know a $12 million dollar race in itself will not generate a crowd?

[dilanesp]

So they already know a $12 million dollar race in itself will not generate a crowd?

The NFL has a bunch of this stuff at the Super Bowl....

[Tom]

Fair enough.

The SB is more about a party than football, so I see the similarities.

[alhattab]

They were suppose to have parimutuel wagering this year but Christie took too long to sign the bill. Pretty good chance they have it next year.

It is also a fund raiser for cancer research I believe, not for Stronach's pockets.

I was at Far Hills today for work. 90% of the crowd is in Vineyard Vines. Lots of drunk college kids who pretty much all look the same. Very few people watch the races with any interest. I think pari mutuel is a certainty in 2017. Should have some appeal in the UK/Ireland and with the lads at Fair Hill

[MonmouthParkJoe]

I was at Far Hills today for work. 90% of the crowd is in Vineyard Vines. Lots of drunk college kids who pretty much all look the same. Very few people watch the races with any interest. I think pari mutuel is a certainty in 2017. Should have some appeal in the UK/Ireland and with the lads at Fair Hill

For work huh, must be nice!

Yes it has that whole hoighty toighty feel to it. I am almost positive 90 percent of the people there dont even catch a glimpse of the races. That being said, depending on where I am that time next year I will go if they have betting. Otherwise I dont care much for that type of crowd. :D

[Fager Fan]

Sounds like a great way for the rich elite to keep out the middle class "riff raff" and "degenerate horseplayers".
God forbid they should let mere commoners mingle with their betters.

So only the rich elite go to baseball games?

[bobphilo]

So only the rich elite go to baseball games?

Only the rich can afford a $200 admission on an ordinary day.

[bobphilo]

They get a crowd of 30,000+. I guess they could all be rich elite, though by the looks of the live feed it doesn't appear so.

A "regular" days racing in most countries costs $20+ just to get in the door. Like a mid week afternoon fixture at a not famous track. US horseplayers have been spoiled by the anomaly that is US racing where admission is either free or a negligible $2-$5. But one of the side effects of that is that it has created the illusion that because it's so cheap that, that it is not good value. It's psychological. People value stuff more the more it costs. Granted there is a price point and a sweet spot you have to find.

But any way, the point being made is that there is a good chance that Stronach will have a sell out crowd paying $100 each for his race in Jan. All you guys saying "that's crazy, nobody will pay that", I think you are going to be surprised.

My heart bleeds for the U.S. tracks because of the low admission prices. Oh yes, there's also the matter of the tons of money they make with their high takeouts. Any admission price is nothing more than paying for the privilege of contributing to the takeout.
I wouldn't be surprised if Gulstream sells out. After all, there's a sucker born every 5 minutes.

[dilanesp]

My heart bleeds for the U.S. tracks because of the low admission prices. Oh yes, there's also the matter of the tons of money they make with their high takeouts. Any admission price is nothing more than paying for the privilege of contributing to the takeout.
I wouldn't be surprised if Gulstream sells out. After all, there's a sucker born every 5 minutes.

This is a fundamentally wrong way to look at this.

If racetracks don't make money, they go out of business. Think that is good for horseplayers?

Anything that gets bodies out to the track to pay high prices is basically good for horseplayers. And in the modern era, horseplayers can bet at home or at simulcast outlets and don't have to pay high admission charges to bet.

If you are outraged by takeout, bet something else. I'm serious. Go play poker, or learn to count cards in blackjack, or bet football or baseball games. If you choose to bet horses, you choose to pay the takeout. And then you need the tracks to stay in business so you can keep betting.

[Fager Fan]

They were suppose to have parimutuel wagering this year but Christie took too long to sign the bill. Pretty good chance they have it next year.

It is also a fund raiser for cancer research I believe, not for Stronach's pockets.

Really? You don't think tracks need money to pay for the track facility, employees, utilities, track surface and maintenance, and more? The attitude that it's to fill Stronach's pockets is the wrong attitude. Particularly in this case, where the slot buyers are splitting admission income.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

Really? You don't think tracks need money to pay for the track facility, employees, utilities, track surface and maintenance, and more? The attitude that it's to fill Stronach's pockets is the wrong attitude. Particularly in this case, where the slot buyers are splitting admission income.

Actually I am quite aware of what goes into putting on a racing performance and how a track makes money.

My "attitude" on this is simply it is price gouging. Will some people pay it, sure. I just have a hard time when the people that support this game day in and day out get priced out on big days like this. The same people that are betting cheap cards on track every live day cannot afford to witness a big event like this.

And it is not just something like this that bothers me, but rather one of many. Especially when you consider Gulfstream isnt putting up any of the purse money for this race.

[Fager Fan]

Actually I am quite aware of what goes into putting on a racing performance and how a track makes money.

My "attitude" on this is simply it is price gouging. Will some people pay it, sure. I just have a hard time when the people that support this game day in and day out get priced out on big days like this. The same people that are betting cheap cards on track every live day cannot afford to witness a big event like this.

And it is not just something like this that bothers me, but rather one of many. Especially when you consider Gulfstream isnt putting up any of the purse money for this race.

This makes zero sense. Are you upset as well that the average fan can't afford to go to the Super Bowl? You think tickets to the Super Bowl should be $20 so all those poor fans can afford to go? If you're running a business, you charge the maximum price that your customers will pay.

It's particularly obnoxious to talk of the track gouging to fill their pockets when the admissions are one of the income items that the slot holders split.

Were you even planning to go to this anyway, or are you using it as a chance to fuss?

[MonmouthParkJoe]

This makes zero sense. Are you upset as well that the average fan can't afford to go to the Super Bowl? You think tickets to the Super Bowl should be $20 so all those poor fans can afford to go? If you're running a business, you charge the maximum price that your customers will pay.

It's particularly obnoxious to talk of the track gouging to fill their pockets when the admissions are one of the income items that the slot holders split.

Were you even planning to go to this anyway, or are you using it as a chance to fuss?

Obnoxious? Fuss? Did someone piss in your oatmeal this morning?

Yes I do think the super bowl is over priced. Yes I do feel bad for the fans of any sport that get priced out of marquee events. Yes I do understand supply and demand for any commodity or event.

Just because I get it, doesnt mean I agree with it. And in this case for the Pegasus Cup, I do not agree with it.

[cj]

Obnoxious? Fuss? Did someone piss in your oatmeal this morning?

Yes I do think the super bowl is over priced. Yes I do feel bad for the fans of any sport that get priced out of marquee events. Yes I do understand supply and demand for any commodity or event.

Just because I get it, doesnt mean I agree with it. And in this case for the Pegasus Cup, I do not agree with it.

Not to mention there is no reason to believe there will be any demand for the Pegasus race, let alone at a $100 for general admission.

[Fager Fan]

Obnoxious? Fuss? Did someone piss in your oatmeal this morning?

Yes I do think the super bowl is over priced. Yes I do feel bad for the fans of any sport that get priced out of marquee events. Yes I do understand supply and demand for any commodity or event.

Just because I get it, doesnt mean I agree with it. And in this case for the Pegasus Cup, I do not agree with it.

Unless you were planning to go and now you can't, then I don't understand you and Bob. They are raising funds any way they can so as to be successful, which does mean having people willing to buy slots again and this money is split between all the slot holders. I commend people who try to do new things, particularly that could benefit older horses. I'm not going to sit here and criticize the effort.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

Nope, never planned on going. I do appreciate people trying new things just don't agree with the price point.

And I do remember seeing something that admissions wasn't part of the revenue share

[MonmouthParkJoe]

http://www.drf.com/news/high-prices-tickets-pegasus-world-cup

[alhattab]

My heart bleeds for the U.S. tracks because of the low admission prices. Oh yes, there's also the matter of the tons of money they make with their high takeouts. Any admission price is nothing more than paying for the privilege of contributing to the takeout.
I wouldn't be surprised if Gulstream sells out. After all, there's a sucker born every 5 minutes.

A few thoughts on both counts. In terms of being spoiled, I don't think we are spoiled by anything. We are paying for what we are getting, which is basically zero in many or most cases. The tracks don't give us anything worth paying for.

In the few instances they do, I think it insults the intelligence of people willing to pay for something that they as consumers believe to be worth the price. Is it worth $5 for me to walk into Aqueduct? Not for me, but I wouldn't think twice about that price at Belmont, or $10 at Saratoga, etc. Would I pay $100 to go the GP for that race? No. Do I think someone else is a "sucker" for doing so- no. They make a choice they are deceived into doing so.

[cj]

Unless you were planning to go and now you can't, then I don't understand you and Bob. They are raising funds any way they can so as to be successful, which does mean having people willing to buy slots again and this money is split between all the slot holders. I commend people who try to do new things, particularly that could benefit older horses. I'm not going to sit here and criticize the effort.

I strongly suspect they are making it into a private party and will pretend it is some high class event with all the beautiful people showing up. In reality they will give away most of the seats to friends and family. Nobody is paying those prices. They are just a way to keep out the people they don't want. To top it off, they'll get a field headed by a horse like Protonico, a fine horse but certainly not worthy of running for that purse.

Of course, I could be wrong about all of this. We'll see.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

I agree with alot of sentiments on here, specifically the point of the demand. I do not think people would be suckers for paying the $100 to see it, just doesnt seem appealing to me.

Comparing this event to something like the superbowl is comparing apples to door knobs. The NFL is one of the most profitable ventures in the world. It has been on the upswing for years with fans as young as you will ever see, so I understand the prices for the superbowl, even if I would never pay it.

Horse racing by comparison has been the complete opposite. Even if handle is slowly creeping up and we have all heard the issue with the aging fan base. The industry has missed the boat on so many things, so it is natural to question something like this. I actually hope the event does well. At least with certain ball park or other sporting events, there are cheaper ticket options in the nosebleeds. Here, not so much.

Gamblers are often the last thing ever thought of in any industry movement. As a horseplayer first and foremost, I will always been an advocate for the everyday player.

Lastly, if we want a younger generation then let them have the opportunity to be on track, one of the areas that places lament when they look at attendance figures. Would a young kid or adult perhaps become a life long fan seeing Chrome possibly run in this race, I would say yes. Some cheap $12,500 claimer, maybe but not as likely.

If Saratoga or Belmont or even Monmouth ever raised their prices on admission I would pay it and not think twice. Breeders cup GA is like $40 for that Saturday, and to me is an absolute bargain, similar to Belmont Stakes day or Travers day.

I hope the race catches on, since it has brought alot of good PR to a sport that needs it, even if I will never attend. Ok rant over

[tanner12oz]

The infield tickets are 60 if you buy them now and increase all the way up to 110 dollars the day of the Preakness. Not including the 20 bucks for the beer mug. That's a lot of money and it will only keep going up. Of course they can charge what people will pay but that doesn't make it right in my opinion.

your not exactly getting the racetrack experience while pounding away at your bottomless mug watching zz top play

[dilanesp]

Obnoxious? Fuss? Did someone piss in your oatmeal this morning?

Yes I do think the super bowl is over priced. Yes I do feel bad for the fans of any sport that get priced out of marquee events. Yes I do understand supply and demand for any commodity or event.

Just because I get it, doesnt mean I agree with it. And in this case for the Pegasus Cup, I do not agree with it.

If you want the Super Bowl to have a lower price, you would need a 400,000 seat facility where nobody could see anything anyway.

[dilanesp]

A few thoughts on both counts. In terms of being spoiled, I don't think we are spoiled by anything. We are paying for what we are getting, which is basically zero in many or most cases. The tracks don't give us anything worth paying for.

In the few instances they do, I think it insults the intelligence of people willing to pay for something that they as consumers believe to be worth the price. Is it worth $5 for me to walk into Aqueduct? Not for me, but I wouldn't think twice about that price at Belmont, or $10 at Saratoga, etc. Would I pay $100 to go the GP for that race? No. Do I think someone else is a "sucker" for doing so- no. They make a choice they are deceived into doing so.

As far as I know, admission to Aqueduct is free, Belmont is reasonable (except Belmont day), and Saratoga is expensive. So, NYRA agrees with you.

[cj]

As far as I know, admission to Aqueduct is free, Belmont is reasonable (except Belmont day), and Saratoga is expensive. So, NYRA agrees with you.

It is $5 to get in Saratoga. I personally wouldn't call that expensive. Pretty sure Belmont is the same. Aqueduct is free.

[alhattab]

It is $5 to get in Saratoga. I personally wouldn't call that expensive. Pretty sure Belmont is the same. Aqueduct is free.

Sorry meant to say they are not deceived, and I didn't intend the prices I cited to be factually accurate just for examples. My point is value is in the eye of the beholder.

[bobphilo]

This is a fundamentally wrong way to look at this.

If racetracks don't make money, they go out of business. Think that is good for horseplayers?

Anything that gets bodies out to the track to pay high prices is basically good for horseplayers. And in the modern era, horseplayers can bet at home or at simulcast outlets and don't have to pay high admission charges to bet.

Typical trickle down economics. What's good for track profits is automatically good for the horseplayer. Rubbish. The main source of track income is the takeout. Smart tracks realize that the way they can grow the sport is to make live racing available to more fans. Making admission prices ridiculously high is the best way to prevent bodies going out to the track. Charging obscene admission prices is the best way to reduce racing to a sport where horseplayers just watch racing on TV and will be a deathnell to racing as a live sport.
Gulfstream has already reduced the size of their grandstand to the point where they can never host a Breeder's Cup. If racing follows this model why not just reduce seating to a few over-priced seats and reduce it to a simulcast sport.

[dilanesp]

Typical trickle down economics. What's good for track profits is automatically good for the horseplayer. Rubbish. The main source of track income is the takeout. Smart tracks realize that the way they can grow the sport is to make live racing available to more fans. Making admission prices ridiculously high is the best way to prevent bodies going out to the track. Charging obscene admission prices is the best way to reduce racing to a sport where horseplayers just watch racing on TV and will be a deathnell to racing as a live sport.
Gulfstream has already reduced the size of their grandstand to the point where they can never host a Breeder's Cup. If racing follows this model why not just reduce seating to a few over-priced seats and reduce it to a simulcast sport.

The reduction in live crowds is something that started 40 years ago in New York. It's not recent and it has nothing to do with anything Gulfstream did.

[bobphilo]

The reduction in live crowds is something that started 40 years ago in New York. It's not recent and it has nothing to do with anything Gulfstream did.
I never said that it was the sole historical cause in racetrack attendance. However what do you expect from a current policy that puts attendance beyond the means of many race goers? It only makes a bad situation worse.

[BELMONT 6-6-09]

Speaking of attendance I believe the tracks should have free admission for seniors. NYRA has a good deal with inexpensive season passes which average to a small outlay if you are a frequent attendee.

[dilanesp]

I never said that it was the sole historical cause in racetrack attendance. However what do you expect from a current policy that puts attendance beyond the means of many race goers? It only makes a bad situation worse.

I don't think it works like that.

I think high prices denote quality. Top sports events, top class entertainment, etc., carry high ticket prices. Stronach is trying to make Pegasus day into an event. If he succeeds he makes a lot of money, and if his track makes a lot of money it keeps the sport going and keeps his tracks afloat.

So what's the complaint here? That BETTORS can't get in? The bettors don't need to get in-- there's 100 ways to bet the Pegasus card. That cheap spectators who spend no money at the track can't get in? If I'm Frank Stronach, I don't want cheap customers. NO business wants cheap customers. I want people who will spend money.

High prices are GOOD. Every successful enterprise charges significant prices, one way or the other. (And before anyone mentions Las Vegas, check the room rates, the spa prices, the gift shop prices, and the entertainment and nightlife prices at those luxury hotels with the good race books.)

Bettors should want to see lots more days where the prices are high. Because that would indicate a successful sport. Cheap tickets are a sign of failure.

[Redboard]

If Gulfstream can get that ticket price, more power to them. I have a feeling though that many will be available (just like the Breeders cup) with a few weeks to go and we’ll see a ton available at discount. $100 sticker price, $20 marked-down price, so those paying the latter will think they got a good deal.
As far as the race, as someone previously said here, it couldn’t be a worse year for the handicap division. The only storyline of any interest that I can see could be the coronation of California Chrome. If he wins the BCC and this, then he’ll have won a lot of damn money, which counts for something. A derby winner saying out of the breeding shed and running for money at six years old? I like it.
:ThmbUp:

[BELMONT 6-6-09]

Look at it this way a Broadway show can cost $100 and there is no way to get your money back ha ha at least you can at the track

[thespaah]

It already is. The Derby and Preakness have charged big for decades, the Belmont for at least 20 years. Del Mar is always expensive and more so on Opening Day and for the Pacific Classic. Saratoga is expensive. And the Breeders' Cup ranges from pretty expensive to ridiculously expensive.

You don't get into the Stanley Cup Finals for the same price as a midweek Buffalo Sabres-Florida Panthers game. This isn't any different.
Wait a minute.....The Gen admission for the Belmont Stakes card is $25.
That is a far cry from the $50 or more for the Derby and Preakness.
On Travers day,. NYRA collects $10 for grandstand and $20 for clubhouse.

[thespaah]

If you want to go racing today at Far Hills, it's $200 a head plus $30 to park.
It has a capacity crowd every year.

http://www.farhillsrace.org/hospitality-opportunities/
Thats a totally different clientele.....Steeplechase/Hunt meets are one or two days. They are also geared to those who are upper crust.
The one day meet here near Charlotte is a white table cloth, sun dress, wide brim hat coat and tails affair. Sure we the unwashed masses can attend but there is a fairly snooty dress code. And it costs $100 for a tailgate spot where one can view the 6 race card.
The event has been here for at least ten years. I have never been....
"They aint no bettin' allowed here, son. You're in the buckle of the Bible Belt".

[thespaah]

Compared to Kanye West concert tickets in Key Arena going for 80 bucks nosebleed and 900 bucks floor, a screaming deal.
And there are just enough people stupid enough to pay that kind of money to see a loudmouth racist turd and his movie screen sized ass, old lady.

[thespaah]

They get a crowd of 30,000+. I guess they could all be rich elite, though by the looks of the live feed it doesn't appear so.

A "regular" days racing in most countries costs $20+ just to get in the door. Like a mid week afternoon fixture at a not famous track. US horseplayers have been spoiled by the anomaly that is US racing where admission is either free or a negligible $2-$5. But one of the side effects of that is that it has created the illusion that because it's so cheap that, that it is not good value. It's psychological. People value stuff more the more it costs. Granted there is a price point and a sweet spot you have to find.

But any way, the point being made is that there is a good chance that Stronach will have a sell out crowd paying $100 each for his race in Jan. All you guys saying "that's crazy, nobody will pay that", I think you are going to be surprised.
I think there will be just enough people who think "wow, a hundred bucks!!! Well it must be worth it. Let's go!"....Sort of like when parents shelled out over a thousand bucks for two tickets for Hannah Montana or One Direction....
My neighbor did just that. The latter. Paid $1000 for two tickets to see a now defunct boy band. And drove from Charlotte to Atlanta to boot.
So yeah, there are people who think because something costs a lot, they just HAVE to see it.
Me, i would not pay $1,000 to see the Giants play in the Super Bowl. I don't care if it's right here 15 miles away.....I don't see the value in paying $100 to go to the races.

[Garyinseattle]

The whole thing around this Pegasus race is so ridiculous. First off the field is gonna be a joke. Who is gonna run? California Chrome....great....he will be 1-5 and jog. Runhappy has zero shot if he even runs. None of the other owners of the entries have any real horses from what I read. So what will they do? Try and sell their spot? Most likely they will want to turn a profit and be greedy and ask 1.5-2 million for their spot. Good luck with that.

But the best is Stronarch wanting to charge 100 bucks to get in. That is HILARIOUS. They have trouble getting people there on weekends in the winter. Now you are gonna charge them 100 bucks. Attendance that day will be a joke.

Stronarch can't seem to do anything right. Nice job spending 30 million on that huge chunk of metal in the parking lot.

[thespaah]

This is a fundamentally wrong way to look at this.

If racetracks don't make money, they go out of business. Think that is good for horseplayers?

Anything that gets bodies out to the track to pay high prices is basically good for horseplayers. And in the modern era, horseplayers can bet at home or at simulcast outlets and don't have to pay high admission charges to bet.

If you are outraged by takeout, bet something else. I'm serious. Go play poker, or learn to count cards in blackjack, or bet football or baseball games. If you choose to bet horses, you choose to pay the takeout. And then you need the tracks to stay in business so you can keep betting.
Ok.....Which brings us to casinos. They don't charge people to get in. One casino in Vegas will handle in a day what So Cal and NYRA handle combined...That includes all sources.
Granted there are tons more wagering opportunities which drives the handle, but the casinos don't need to fleece people before they get into the place either.
Race tracks do not need to collect for parking and admission. They do it just because they can.
Its sort of like air carriers. They do not need to charge for baggage, but they do it because it simply adds to the bottom line.

[thespaah]

This makes zero sense. Are you upset as well that the average fan can't afford to go to the Super Bowl? You think tickets to the Super Bowl should be $20 so all those poor fans can afford to go? If you're running a business, you charge the maximum price that your customers will pay.

It's particularly obnoxious to talk of the track gouging to fill their pockets when the admissions are one of the income items that the slot holders split.

Were you even planning to go to this anyway, or are you using it as a chance to fuss?
This isn't the Super Bowl.....Not even close.
I am a business first person. I understand and support capitalism and the profit motive more than most people.
Now, in my business my model is I charge a fair and appropriate price for my services. I am in it for the sole purpose of turning a profit. However, as I tell my customers, I am not here to make my entire profit off one person.
I think it is fine fro Stronach to charge a premium price for the day. However, there is the specter of what is appropriate.
And in my opinion $100 is NOT.....

[thespaah]

Not to mention there is no reason to believe there will be any demand for the Pegasus race, let alone at a $100 for general admission.
Ahh. Very good. I was waiting for a voice of reason to get to that point.
Well stated.

[thespaah]

The reduction in live crowds is something that started 40 years ago in New York. It's not recent and it has nothing to do with anything Gulfstream did.
40 years ago?
To what are you using for comparison?....
I can remember in the 80's a typical Saturday crowd at even Aqueduct, 20,000 people would be in the plant....
Now, I will admit that with the inception of NYC, Nassau Downs and to lesser extent Catskill OTB's, on track admissions did wane. But it wasn't until the mid 90's when the drop off was significant.
Anyway. The point is when Stronach bought Gulfstream from the Donn family, he had seen the handwriting on the wall. So he had the building torn down and built a much smaller and manageable plant.

[thespaah]

I don't think it works like that.

I think high prices denote quality. Top sports events, top class entertainment, etc., carry high ticket prices. Stronach is trying to make Pegasus day into an event. If he succeeds he makes a lot of money, and if his track makes a lot of money it keeps the sport going and keeps his tracks afloat.

So what's the complaint here? That BETTORS can't get in? The bettors don't need to get in-- there's 100 ways to bet the Pegasus card. That cheap spectators who spend no money at the track can't get in? If I'm Frank Stronach, I don't want cheap customers. NO business wants cheap customers. I want people who will spend money.

High prices are GOOD. Every successful enterprise charges significant prices, one way or the other. (And before anyone mentions Las Vegas, check the room rates, the spa prices, the gift shop prices, and the entertainment and nightlife prices at those luxury hotels with the good race books.)

Bettors should want to see lots more days where the prices are high. Because that would indicate a successful sport. Cheap tickets are a sign of failure.
What you are describing is known as "snob appeal".
Many companies price their goods this way....
For example. All of the major golf equipment manufacturers were taken kicking and screaming into the current big(er) box store model. Where as in the past only golf pro shops could sell certain brands and at virtually fixed prices. The manufacturers finally relented. However the trade off was that no seller could discount the merchandise without express permission from the manufacturer, lest the seller risk losing their licence to sell the products.
Prices are kept high because price points indicate quality.
In this instance though, it is a performance that is untested. The event has no value unless people show up in the first place.
If this were my baby, I would charge a premium, but it would be nominal. If the thing sells out, the price would be gradually increased in successive years until it reaches a tipping point.
Many casinos also offer even moderate but consistent players LOTS of perks.
Look, I think a business should be able to charge for it's products an appropriate price. But is price alone the true indicator of quality? Hell no..
That's like saying Kumho, a Korean tire manufacturer that is in the middle of the road as far as product quality were to for no other reason than to as you say charge a high price just to indicate quality, meanwhile, Kumho tires are not nearly the product of say Michelin or Pirelli.....
So just because Gulfstream is charging a $100 dowry for their special day, does not mean it will be special. The event should have to prove itself first.

[Garyinseattle]

Ahh. Very good. I was waiting for a voice of reason to get to that point.
Well stated.


I wouldn't be shocked if the whole thing implodes and there's a 6 horse field. Seriously...what horses are gonna go in the race? It's a horrible time of year to run an older hdcp horse. To enter you have to cough up at least a million bucks. Even if there was no insane entry fee they would have trouble filling the race. Call me crazy but I see this thing as a huge disaster.....which a very small attendance of people will see live.


Hopefully it's one and done and they bring back The Donn in Feb in 2018...

[whisperlunch]

I live in Naples I was really excited and looking forward to attending. With $100 ticket price not a chance. That's outrageous. I'm a huge fan and I go to Gulfstream several times a month but that price is ridiculous. Everyone here is debating the marketing aspect and price point but it's still a day at the races and the ticket price is insulting. Comparing it to the Super Bowl is nuts. I'm not sure I would agree with any price for general admission. Sure charge all you can for seating and carousel with tv's. If the race fills up with all the big names then okay possibly $20 ish max ticket.

[Redboard]

I wouldn't be shocked if the whole thing implodes and there's a 6 horse field. .....................

Hopefully it's one and done and they bring back The Donn in Feb in 2018...

Can anyone here even remember who won the Donn this year? OK it was Mshawish who has since retired.

I don't believe it would be possible to have only six horses, since 12 have put up $1 million for a spot.

One of the networks will be showing it so it will be in HD and available to more people.

Can't see anything but positives here.

[Garyinseattle]

Can anyone here even remember who won the Donn this year? OK it was Mshawish who has since retired.

I don't believe it would be possible to have only six horses, since 12 have put up $1 million for a spot.

One of the networks will be showing it so it will be in HD and available to more people.

Can't see anything but positives here.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope they get a full field and it's a great betting race. But just don't see it with the list of people who bought in. Arrogate is owned by Juddmonte so unless they decide to buy in who else can give California Chrome a run for his money? Runhappy will never get the distance, and he doesn't seem the same. Nyquist has tailed off and is no threat to CC. If somehow CC doesn't make the race then sure you might get people wanting to run in this thing...but still....will cost at least a million to get in.

California Chrome LLC,
Coolmore Stud,
Dan Schafer
Frank Stronach,
Jerry and Ronald Frankel
Jim McIngvale,
Reddam Racing,
Reeves Thoroughbred Racing,
Rosedown Racing
Ruis Stable
Sol Kumin
Starlight Racing,

[Garyinseattle]

This is even more ridiculous:

Ticket prices will top out at $765 per person for some seats in the track’s Ten Palms restaurant.



I went to The Fla Derby yrs ago and people were scalping finish line seats in the restaurant for 200 bucks. That at the time seemed kinda nuts, but that was the biggest day of the year for GP with a great stakes filled card. I can't imagine The Pegasus card being even close to the cards they have on Fl Derby day.....

[Grits]

And there are just enough people stupid enough to pay that kind of money to see a loudmouth racist turd and his movie screen sized ass, old lady.

ROTFLOLOLOLing :lol::lol::lol:

And, I'm sorry, gentlemen as I say this. But she's such a stupid skank! Robbed because she can't keep her movie screen sized ass off Twitter showing millions her jewelry. She's a whole nother level of stupid. :eek:

...On a serious note. My Belmont Day ticket last year was $175. This year it was $225. Inflation and all that. ;) I still pay it because it is an incredible day of racing.

A key to these prices at Gulfstream--will the race card be worthy of the minimum $100 seat? Where are they gonna gather so many Graded Stakes races for this day? They can't, I don't think. Though I've been wrong so many times. (But, I ain't wrong about Kim Kardashian!)

You're in close proximity to some really fine restaurants, so dining inside GP means ZIP.

[ronsmac]

And there are just enough people stupid enough to pay that kind of money to see a loudmouth racist turd and his movie screen sized ass, old lady.Kanye still seems to be popular but not quite as much as he was at his peak a few years back. Those prices sound a bit high,even for the peak years Kanye.Music is one of those funny things. The differences in people's taste amazes me. My dad paid 25 bucks to see the who when I was a little kid and my Mom thought that was 24 dollars too much.

[Garyinseattle]

ROTFLOLOLOLing :lol::lol::lol:

And, I'm sorry, gentlemen as I say this. But she's such a stupid skank! Robbed because she can't keep her movie screen sized ass off Twitter showing millions her jewelry. She's a whole nother level of stupid. :eek:

...On a serious note. My Belmont Day ticket last year was $175. This year it was $225. Inflation and all that. ;) I still pay it because it is an incredible day of racing.

A key to these prices at Gulfstream--will the race card be worthy of the minimum $100 seat? Where are they gonna gather so many Graded Stakes races for this day? They can't, I don't think. Though I've been wrong so many times. (But, I ain't wrong about Kim Kardashian!)

You're in close proximity to some really fine restaurants, so dining inside GP means ZIP.


Ten Palms is far from fine dining down here. They do make a good personal pizza....burger...turkey club........but unless they stuff a 700 dollar voucher into the burger it's a joke to charge what they are asking.

[Redboard]

I hope I'm wrong. I hope they get a full field and it's a great betting race. But just don't see it with the list of people who bought in. Arrogate is owned by Juddmonte so unless they decide to buy in who else can give California Chrome a run for his money? Runhappy will never get the distance, and he doesn't seem the same. Nyquist has tailed off and is no threat to CC. If somehow CC doesn't make the race then sure you might get people wanting to run in this thing...but still....will cost at least a million to get in.

California Chrome LLC,
Coolmore Stud,
Dan Schafer
Frank Stronach,
Jerry and Ronald Frankel
Jim McIngvale,
Reddam Racing,
Reeves Thoroughbred Racing,
Rosedown Racing
Ruis Stable
Sol Kumin
Starlight Racing,

Hard to disagree with you. But, it's still a ways out. The landscape could change in a few months. Maybe Obrien will throw in a couple of his Euros. Who knows? Let's just say that a longshot wins the BCC. They could make a deal with one of the outfits you listed to share the winning purse(if they are not already owned by one). So, they wouldn't have to put up the $1 mil.

I'm just saying that I applaud the effort to do something instead of just standing there and watching the Titanic sink into the Atlantic. But again, I agree with you, it looks like the race is going to stink.

[cj]

I hope I'm wrong. I hope they get a full field and it's a great betting race. But just don't see it with the list of people who bought in. Arrogate is owned by Juddmonte so unless they decide to buy in who else can give California Chrome a run for his money? Runhappy will never get the distance, and he doesn't seem the same. Nyquist has tailed off and is no threat to CC. If somehow CC doesn't make the race then sure you might get people wanting to run in this thing...but still....will cost at least a million to get in.

California Chrome LLC,
Coolmore Stud,
Dan Schafer
Frank Stronach,
Jerry and Ronald Frankel
Jim McIngvale,
Reddam Racing,
Reeves Thoroughbred Racing,
Rosedown Racing
Ruis Stable
Sol Kumin
Starlight Racing,

I suspect some of those slots will be offered at a discount. If you don't have a horse worth running, why bother? And if you do, why pay the full million? You could probably get it at a discount when the time comes. Imagine if Chrome does run. Who is going to pay a premium to race against him?

[Alwaysonpoint36]

I suspect some of those slots will be offered at a discount. If you don't have a horse worth running, why bother? And if you do, why pay the full million? You could probably get it at a discount when the time comes. Imagine if Chrome does run. Who is going to pay a premium to race against him?

Are there going to be weight assignments? I can't find any information on it, point being if I'm allowed something ridiculous like 15lbs or more and meet that condition ,why not take a shot?

[nearco]

Are there going to be weight assignments? I can't find any information on it, point being if I'm allowed something ridiculous like 15lbs or more and meet that condition ,why not take a shot?

It's Weight For Age. So I believe that would mean the horses just turned 4 would get a slight break from the horses 5yo+ (can't remember the WFA scale in Jan off hand).

There was also talk of when the race idea was first floated of giving a 5lb break for any horse that runs Lasix free, but I don't know if that is still the case.

[dilanesp]

Ok.....Which brings us to casinos. They don't charge people to get in. One casino in Vegas will handle in a day what So Cal and NYRA handle combined...That includes all sources.
Granted there are tons more wagering opportunities which drives the handle, but the casinos don't need to fleece people before they get into the place either.
Race tracks do not need to collect for parking and admission. They do it just because they can.
Its sort of like air carriers. They do not need to charge for baggage, but they do it because it simply adds to the bottom line.

Casinos in Vegas just started charging $10 to park.

Shows cost hundreds of dTXollars in Vegas, whereas many racetracks charge nothing on top of admission for live entertainment. At a Las Vegas nightclub, a drink can be $14. Rooms at good hotels are hundreds of dollars.

Las Vegas charges plenty.

[dilanesp]

40 years ago?
To what are you using for comparison?....
I can remember in the 80's a typical Saturday crowd at even Aqueduct, 20,000 people would be in the plant....
Now, I will admit that with the inception of NYC, Nassau Downs and to lesser extent Catskill OTB's, on track admissions did wane. But it wasn't until the mid 90's when the drop off was significant.
Anyway. The point is when Stronach bought Gulfstream from the Donn family, he had seen the handwriting on the wall. So he had the building torn down and built a much smaller and manageable plant.

I attended my first race in New York in 1987, the Marlboro Cup. I don't know the actual crowd, but Belmont was empty.

[dilanesp]

What you are describing is known as "snob appeal".
Many companies price their goods this way....
For example. All of the major golf equipment manufacturers were taken kicking and screaming into the current big(er) box store model. Where as in the past only golf pro shops could sell certain brands and at virtually fixed prices. The manufacturers finally relented. However the trade off was that no seller could discount the merchandise without express permission from the manufacturer, lest the seller risk losing their licence to sell the products.
Prices are kept high because price points indicate quality.
In this instance though, it is a performance that is untested. The event has no value unless people show up in the first place.
If this were my baby, I would charge a premium, but it would be nominal. If the thing sells out, the price would be gradually increased in successive years until it reaches a tipping point.
Many casinos also offer even moderate but consistent players LOTS of perks.
Look, I think a business should be able to charge for it's products an appropriate price. But is price alone the true indicator of quality? Hell no..
That's like saying Kumho, a Korean tire manufacturer that is in the middle of the road as far as product quality were to for no other reason than to as you say charge a high price just to indicate quality, meanwhile, Kumho tires are not nearly the product of say Michelin or Pirelli.....
So just because Gulfstream is charging a $100 dowry for their special day, does not mean it will be special. The event should have to prove itself first.

Well, cheap people will root for it to fail. People who want the sport to survive will root for it to succeed.

[nearco]

It's Weight For Age. So I believe that would mean the horses just turned 4 would get a slight break from the horses 5yo+ (can't remember the WFA scale in Jan off hand).

There was also talk of when the race idea was first floated of giving a 5lb break for any horse that runs Lasix free, but I don't know if that is still the case.

According to this.... http://fsulawrc.com/1963to70FAC/FlaAdminCode1963_16_305AOCR_Part1.pdf
The WFA scale gives a 1lb break at a mile and a 2lb break at mile and quarter to 4yos in Jan. This race is 9f, so not sure if they round up or down.

[cj]

Are there going to be weight assignments? I can't find any information on it, point being if I'm allowed something ridiculous like 15lbs or more and meet that condition ,why not take a shot?

Hard to imagine it wouldn't be level weights since everyone pays the same to get in, but I don't know that for sure.

[Alwaysonpoint36]

It's Weight For Age. So I believe that would mean the horses just turned 4 would get a slight break from the horses 5yo+ (can't remember the WFA scale in Jan off hand).

There was also talk of when the race idea was first floated of giving a 5lb break for any horse that runs Lasix free, but I don't know if that is still the case.

Thanks nearco :ThmbUp: and cj

[Grits]

Ten Palms is far from fine dining down here. They do make a good personal pizza....burger...turkey club........but unless they stuff a 700 dollar voucher into the burger it's a joke to charge what they are asking.

As I said, close proximity. Forks would be my choice.

Dining in Gulfstream, again, means ZIP.

[Garyinseattle]

Hard to disagree with you. But, it's still a ways out. The landscape could change in a few months. Maybe Obrien will throw in a couple of his Euros. Who knows? Let's just say that a longshot wins the BCC. They could make a deal with one of the outfits you listed to share the winning purse(if they are not already owned by one). So, they wouldn't have to put up the $1 mil.

I'm just saying that I applaud the effort to do something instead of just standing there and watching the Titanic sink into the Atlantic. But again, I agree with you, it looks like the race is going to stink.


Agree with what you and some others say that if some of these people who got stuck with an entry decide to offer their entry up in an exchange for a piece of winnings then that could draw in some horses. But no way in hell will the early birds who bought these things right away for a million be able to turn a profit like they initially thought. It ain't happening. What will probably happen over the next few months they will get squeezed enough to have to bail and offer out.

I think the only chance of this thing having any kind of field over 6 horses is if CC doesn't show. If Stonarch was smart he would somehow buy back the entry from CC owners to prevent the horse from coming here. Figure a way out.

Listen, I'm all for tracks doing stuff that is great for the game. Belmont Stakes card....great....Keeneland's super saturday card the other day....great...what Kentucky downs has done....great.....those are some examples that I think are great for racing. But what Stronarch is doing here from every aspect is so absurd....from the race to how he is marketing it and pricing it. He will put on a dog and pony show that will draw people who NEVER go to the track to go for a day. You will get the snob types who will go to be seen, and probably won't bet shit. That big ugly chunk of metal in the GP parking lot has a better chance of flapping it's wings and taking flight over S florida then this thing being a success and continued in 2018. Do any of you remember why he said he built that travesty? It was to have a landmark in S Florida that became iconic like The Eiffel Tower. Again....great call Frank.

The people who bet day in and day out and actually keep GP going will not be near the track that day. Stronarch will draw the one and done people that day to GP.

[dilanesp]

Agree with what you and some others say that if some of these people who got stuck with an entry decide to offer their entry up in an exchange for a piece of winnings then that could draw in some horses. But no way in hell will the early birds who bought these things right away for a million be able to turn a profit like they initially thought. It ain't happening. What will probably happen over the next few months they will get squeezed enough to have to bail and offer out.

I think the only chance of this thing having any kind of field over 6 horses is if CC doesn't show. If Stonarch was smart he would somehow buy back the entry from CC owners to prevent the horse from coming here. Figure a way out.

Listen, I'm all for tracks doing stuff that is great for the game. Belmont Stakes card....great....Keeneland's super saturday card the other day....great...what Kentucky downs has done....great.....those are some examples that I think are great for racing. But what Stronarch is doing here from every aspect is so absurd....from the race to how he is marketing it and pricing it. He will put on a dog and pony show that will draw people who NEVER go to the track to go for a day. You will get the snob types who will go to be seen, and probably won't bet shit. That big ugly chunk of metal in the GP parking lot has a better chance of flapping it's wings and taking flight over S florida then this thing being a success and continued in 2018. Do any of you remember why he said he built that travesty? It was to have a landmark in S Florida that became iconic like The Eiffel Tower. Again....great call Frank.

The people who bet day in and day out and actually keep GP going will not be near the track that day. Stronarch will draw the one and done people that day to GP.

The people who bet day in and day out also don't get to go to Churchill on Derby Day. That doesn't bother me one bit- Churchill takes that money and uses it to fund horse racing that bettors do like to bet on.

I frankly don't understand how some people here are offended that some horse racing events are for rich people. Horse racing basically invented the luxury box in the form of the private Turf Club.

[Garyinseattle]

The people who bet day in and day out also don't get to go to Churchill on Derby Day. That doesn't bother me one bit- Churchill takes that money and uses it to fund horse racing that bettors do like to bet on.

I frankly don't understand how some people here are offended that some horse racing events are for rich people. Horse racing basically invented the luxury box in the form of the private Turf Club.

It's just plain idiotic what they are doing. Stronarch tried attracting the crusty elite type by opening up high end shops and restaurants in that shopping area. Ever been there ? I have. It's a ghost town. Goin into II Forks on a Saturday at 7 pm. You'll have no problem getting a table. Go to Frankie's Sports Bar on an NFL Sunday. Beautiful place. Usually about 8 people in the place.

I'm not offended at all by these rich people you speak of . I'm pretty sure Saratoga is packed with the elite rich types. No problem with that. Not sure why you keep going there. Listen. If GP wants to charge 10 bucks on Pegasus day and then have special events where hamburgers cost 765 bucks .....great. Go nuts.

As far as Derby day. Plenty of regulars are there. They charge 50 not 100 for racings biggest day which also happens to be a huge party. Comparing the Derby to the Pegasus is laughable.

[bobphilo]

Well, cheap people will root for it to fail. People who want the sport to survive will root for it to succeed.
I don't see how people that don't want to be ripped off are cheap. It's also unfair to call people who cannot afford these high prices cheap.
How is overcharging absurd prices helping the game to survive? More likely just the opposite.

[bobphilo]

The people who bet day in and day out also don't get to go to Churchill on Derby Day. That doesn't bother me one bit- Churchill takes that money and uses it to fund horse racing that bettors do like to bet on.

I frankly don't understand how some people here are offended that some horse racing events are for rich people. Horse racing basically invented the luxury box in the form of the private Turf Club.
Yeah great. Lets make racing a sport only for the rich. Anyone else can just take a hike. For those that can't afford it, lest them eat cake while only seeing major races on TV. Let's go back to pre-revolutionary France.

[dilanesp]

I don't see how people that don't want to be ripped off are cheap. It's also unfair to call people who cannot afford these high prices cheap.
How is overcharging absurd prices helping the game to survive? More likely just the opposite.

It isn't "overcharging" or a ripoff to charge more money so that big spenders attend and people who think the market price is a ripoff- i.e., cheap people who refuse to spend money- stay home.

And cheap people are actually awful. They are why we can't have nice things. A market full of people who spend money gets you Del Mar. A market full of cheap people gets you a dumpy racetrack, or worse, an out of business one.

Cheap people are terrible parasites. You want something good? Spend some darned money, or stay home and let those of us who want to spend money and buy nice things do it.

[dilanesp]

Yeah great. Lets make racing a sport only for the rich. Anyone else can just take a hike. For those that can't afford it, lest them eat cake while only seeing major races on TV. Let's go back to pre-revolutionary France.

The sport is available to everyone, on television and the internet and live on non-big days.

But yes, when a track can attract a crowd that spends money, it should go for it.

[Garyinseattle]

It isn't "overcharging" or a ripoff to charge more money so that big spenders attend and people who think the market price is a ripoff- i.e., cheap people who refuse to spend money- stay home.

And cheap people are actually awful. They are why we can't have nice things. A market full of people who spend money gets you Del Mar. A market full of cheap people gets you a dumpy racetrack, or worse, an out of business one.

Cheap people are terrible parasites. You want something good? Spend some darned money, or stay home and let those of us who want to spend money and buy nice things do it.

Stronarch is going to end up comping in a lot of people. If he actually relied on the people that would spend the 100 bucks to get in to just stand it would be a ghost town. He'll see how bad advance ticket sales are and start sending them to his friends.

How you equate people who think his plan is ridiculous are cheap is mind boggling.

[Garyinseattle]

The sport is available to everyone, on television and the internet and live on non-big days.

But yes, when a track can attract a crowd that spends money, it should go for it.

You actually believe that the women who wear foo foo hats to these big track days bet a lot of money? These people aren't bettors and never will be. You do realize that tracks make money from the betting handle right?

[MonmouthParkJoe]

I did see quite a few foo foo hat wearing women drinking $25 small bottles of moet at Saratoga this summer :ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

[Garyinseattle]

I did see quite a few foo foo hat wearing women drinking $25 small bottles of moet at Saratoga this summer :ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

I hear ya Joe. I'm not saying they won't spend money on ridiculous priced things at the track that day. But they aint betting....and thats where the track makes any real money.

[thespaah]

ROTFLOLOLOLing :lol::lol::lol:

And, I'm sorry, gentlemen as I say this. But she's such a stupid skank! Robbed because she can't keep her movie screen sized ass off Twitter showing millions her jewelry. She's a whole nother level of stupid. :eek:

...On a serious note. My Belmont Day ticket last year was $175. This year it was $225. Inflation and all that. ;) I still pay it because it is an incredible day of racing.

A key to these prices at Gulfstream--will the race card be worthy of the minimum $100 seat? Where are they gonna gather so many Graded Stakes races for this day? They can't, I don't think. Though I've been wrong so many times. (But, I ain't wrong about Kim Kardashian!)

You're in close proximity to some really fine restaurants, so dining inside GP means ZIP.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Great post!!!!!!

[thespaah]

Casinos in Vegas just started charging $10 to park.

Shows cost hundreds of dTXollars in Vegas, whereas many racetracks charge nothing on top of admission for live entertainment. At a Las Vegas nightclub, a drink can be $14. Rooms at good hotels are hundreds of dollars.

Las Vegas charges plenty.
My focus was strictly on access to the venue. For casinos, the price is ZERO...
BTW, AC casinos have been charging to park for decades. They just validate your ticket on the way out of the casino so the parking is actually free.
And by the way, many Las Vegas properties have either sold or leased their parking facilities to outside contractors.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

I hear ya Joe. I'm not saying they won't spend money on ridiculous priced things at the track that day. But they aint betting....and thats where the track makes any real money.

Oh I agree, just was surprised to see so many people drinking champagne

[Grits]

And cheap people are actually awful. They are why we can't have nice things. A market full of people who spend money gets you Del Mar. A market full of cheap people gets you a dumpy racetrack, or worse, an out of business one.

Cheap people are terrible parasites. You want something good? Spend some darned money, or stay home and let those of us who want to spend money and buy nice things do it.

Has it occurred to you that there are hard working people that enjoy this sport, or for that matter, any entertainment of their choice, as best they can? As best as their income levels will allow.

Dilane, why would you term such people parasitic? And who are you to suggest to them to stay home? Otherwise, they may hinder your buying of nice things?

In my lifetime, (I've lived a lot longer than you and I'm smarter than you) I've known, and still know, a lot of people with more, a lot with less. Those with less--budget their income, often sensibly. Many put their children through fine universities, give them beautiful weddings, etc, etc. and they didn't achieve these things by showing up to be seen, nor spending so they could say, "I was there." Instead, they spent less, and that's ok. Because they didn't bring down, or hinder, anyone.

[clocker7]

I'm looking forward to this event more than just about any horse race in my lifetime. I am a student of history, and it reminds me of those huge special events that took place in the 1800s. They were spectacles, and people sacrificed large money to attend.

This is no different from my boostership of a certain college basketball team. Huge dollars had to be ponied up in order to get a seat. More than a decade after knowitalls said that subscribership would fall short, there is a gigantic waiting list that probably hasn't seen more than a few seats change hands. (Only through bungling one's will or probate, I suspect.)

And of course, there are the grousers who think that the public is entitled to attend for all sorts of cockeyed reasons. And demand that games should be played in a larger arena. Well, quality and scarcity combine to make the system function.

[thespaah]

Has it occurred to you that there are hard working people that enjoy this sport, or for that matter, any entertainment of their choice, as best they can? As best as their income levels will allow.

Dilane, why would you term such people parasitic? And who are you to suggest to them to stay home? Otherwise, they may hinder your buying of nice things?

In my lifetime, (I've lived a lot longer than you and I'm smarter than you) I've known, and still know, a lot of people with more, a lot with less. Those with less--budget their income, often sensibly. Many put their children through fine universities, give them beautiful weddings, etc, etc. and they didn't achieve these things by showing up to be seen, nor spending so they could say, "I was there." Instead, they spent less, and that's ok. Because they didn't bring down, or hinder, anyone.
Grits....Those comments are why I think you and I think so much alike.
We have spent our lives living within our means. Every once in a while we treat ourselves. We look to economize where ever we can. if the budget allows, we do it. Yeah we could swipe a credit card. Spending unwisely just to say "hey look at at what we did"..We refuse.
We think forwardly. Not just the present.
So people like the OP here think people like us are "cheap' and "parasites", let him do so...
We know better. And we are a helluva lot smarter, because like you, we in our house here, understand value and not just price.
The OP is all wrong here. His arrogance and elitism will never allow him to apologize to us for his uncalled for and caustic remarks.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

Has it occurred to you that there are hard working people that enjoy this sport, or for that matter, any entertainment of their choice, as best they can? As best as their income levels will allow.

Dilane, why would you term such people parasitic? And who are you to suggest to them to stay home? Otherwise, they may hinder your buying of nice things?

In my lifetime, (I've lived a lot longer than you and I'm smarter than you) I've known, and still know, a lot of people with more, a lot with less. Those with less--budget their income, often sensibly. Many put their children through fine universities, give them beautiful weddings, etc, etc. and they didn't achieve these things by showing up to be seen, nor spending so they could say, "I was there." Instead, they spent less, and that's ok. Because they didn't bring down, or hinder, anyone.

This! :ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

[elhelmete]

I hear ya Joe. I'm not saying they won't spend money on ridiculous priced things at the track that day. But they aint betting....and thats where the track makes any real money.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss food and bev and gate and parking as a significant revenue source for tracks.

Using the oft-lauded Las Vegas example...do you think if gambling revenue was as rosy as it was decades ago we'd see the undeniable rise of room/food+bev and paid parking charges?

[elhelmete]

Has it occurred to you that there are hard working people that enjoy this sport, or for that matter, any entertainment of their choice, as best they can? As best as their income levels will allow.

Dilane, why would you term such people parasitic? And who are you to suggest to them to stay home? Otherwise, they may hinder your buying of nice things?

In my lifetime, (I've lived a lot longer than you and I'm smarter than you) I've known, and still know, a lot of people with more, a lot with less. Those with less--budget their income, often sensibly. Many put their children through fine universities, give them beautiful weddings, etc, etc. and they didn't achieve these things by showing up to be seen, nor spending so they could say, "I was there." Instead, they spent less, and that's ok. Because they didn't bring down, or hinder, anyone.

I think, to give him the benefit of the doubt, that dilanesp may be referring to a recent phenomenon many call the 'Groupon Effect.'

[dilanesp]

Has it occurred to you that there are hard working people that enjoy this sport, or for that matter, any entertainment of their choice, as best they can? As best as their income levels will allow.

Dilane, why would you term such people parasitic? And who are you to suggest to them to stay home? Otherwise, they may hinder your buying of nice things?

In my lifetime, (I've lived a lot longer than you and I'm smarter than you) I've known, and still know, a lot of people with more, a lot with less. Those with less--budget their income, often sensibly. Many put their children through fine universities, give them beautiful weddings, etc, etc. and they didn't achieve these things by showing up to be seen, nor spending so they could say, "I was there." Instead, they spent less, and that's ok. Because they didn't bring down, or hinder, anyone.

Grits, there are cheap ways to enjoy football. You can watch it on TV for free. You can subscribe to Sunday Ticket for a couple of hundred dollars a year. You can buy bumper stickers and other inexpensive merchandise.

Or you can go to a high school game.

But team owners want their stadiums to be filled with people who spend money. And for good reason- if football fans demanded tickets be $5 and beer be $2, the stadiums would be run down, the experience would be lousy, etc.

I have no prejudice against the working class. But the fact remains, products directed to poor people tend to be poor products. Dollar Tree isn't as nice as Macy's.

My problem is with middle class cheapos. They are the reason airline service is so bad. And if everyone who wants to go to the track is cheap, you end up with dumpy tracks, or no tracks at all.

In contrast, at Del Mar, the fans, who include many middle class people, spend money, and as a result you get a nice experience.

So yeah, I think people who can afford things but want to be cheap are why we can't have nice things. If you can't afford Pegasus day, go on a different day. If you don't want to pay it, let those of us who do, support the sport rather than complaining about it.

[dilanesp]

You actually believe that the women who wear foo foo hats to these big track days bet a lot of money? These people aren't bettors and never will be. You do realize that tracks make money from the betting handle right?

Yep. And it's free to bet the Pegasus card. He will get plenty of handle.

[Garyinseattle]

Grits, there are cheap ways to enjoy football. You can watch it on TV for free. You can subscribe to Sunday Ticket for a couple of hundred dollars a year. You can buy bumper stickers and other inexpensive merchandise.

Or you can go to a high school game.

But team owners want their stadiums to be filled with people who spend money. And for good reason- if football fans demanded tickets be $5 and beer be $2, the stadiums would be run down, the experience would be lousy, etc.

I have no prejudice against the working class. But the fact remains, products directed to poor people tend to be poor products. Dollar Tree isn't as nice as Macy's.

My problem is with middle class cheapos. They are the reason airline service is so bad. And if everyone who wants to go to the track is cheap, you end up with dumpy tracks, or no tracks at all.

In contrast, at Del Mar, the fans, who include many middle class people, spend money, and as a result you get a nice experience.

So yeah, I think people who can afford things but want to be cheap are why we can't have nice things. If you can't afford Pegasus day, go on a different day. If you don't want to pay it, let those of us who do, support the sport rather than complaining about it.


You just don't seem to get it do you? CD,PIM, and NYRA will charge more for triple crown races. SA will charge more to get in BC day. That is justified to an extent. We are talking here about what will be most likely a joke of a "Grade 1" for older horses. The undercard will also most likely be weak to an extent as most of the better horses will not get their season started until a month or so after the card is run. You think charging double what CD charges for The Derby makes sense?

And enough with being a blowhard about how much money you have and how you detest the middle class. We get it...you are a loudmouth billionaire....you probably date super models as well.....

[CosmicWon]

For funsies here's the undercard in terms of stakes. Get ready for a slate of G3ish turf races that day

[burnsy]

You just don't seem to get it do you? CD,PIM, and NYRA will charge more for triple crown races. SA will charge more to get in BC day. That is justified to an extent. We are talking here about what will be most likely a joke of a "Grade 1" for older horses. The undercard will also most likely be weak to an extent as most of the better horses will not get their season started until a month or so after the card is run. You think charging double what CD charges for The Derby makes sense?

And enough with being a blowhard about how much money you have and how you detest the middle class. We get it...you are a loudmouth billionaire....you probably date super models as well.....

Its just not that, its price gouging. I've been a season ticket holder for the Buffalo Bills for 26 years and I probably go to more concerts and sporting events than most people go to. I've seen almost every classic rock musician people can name, many multiple times. Here's the thing, I'm part of the middle class and that's what I like to do. The prices constantly go up and I bitch a little but still go. This is a gambling venture as well as entertainment, in other words, getting in the place guarantees that I will wager a good amount of money. Horse racing is literally chasing people away with deals like this.....so be it. I just booked my "free room" at Turning Stone for Thanksgiving and I don't bet 5 bucks a hand at the Black Jack tables. Its like this game does not even understand how gaming works these days. By the way, the room is like a palace.

Totally agree!

[clocker7]

If they underpriced their tickets to pacify gripers, then a goodly chunk of them would end up online at a market rate.

Why don't we wait for how things turn out? If, as gary speculates, the race and undercard is a flop, then nobody has missed anything. And the track will have been punished for miscalculation. Otoh, if it turns out to be one for the ages, then gripers will have been wrong about the track's market strategy.

This is only one year. Maybe it will be the one and only year. Then you can revel in schadenfreude.

[bobphilo]

The sport is available to everyone, on television and the internet and live on non-big days.

But yes, when a track can attract a crowd that spends money, it should go for it.
Sure, by all means lets keep the lowly peasants from seeing live racing except when low level horses are running. After all, aren't they low level people since they can't afford obscene prices.
I'm sure you're a big fan of Mylan Pharma for raising the price of their Epi-Pen to over $600.

[dilanesp]

You just don't seem to get it do you? CD,PIM, and NYRA will charge more for triple crown races. SA will charge more to get in BC day. That is justified to an extent. We are talking here about what will be most likely a joke of a "Grade 1" for older horses. The undercard will also most likely be weak to an extent as most of the better horses will not get their season started until a month or so after the card is run. You think charging double what CD charges for The Derby makes sense?

Time will tell. It could fail for that reason.

But if Stronach succeeds, I think it will be a good thing. Whereas a lot of people here seem to think it will be "unjust" because he priced it higher than people who refuse to spend money wish to pay.

[dilanesp]

This is a gambling venture as well as entertainment, in other words, getting in the place guarantees that I will wager a good amount of money.

Most handle these days isn't on-track handle.

Those who wish to bet the Pegasus card will bet it. The $100 admission price has nothing to do with that.

[dilanesp]

I'm sure you're a big fan of Mylan Pharma for raising the price of their Epi-Pen to over $600.

No I am not. A necessary medical device is different from an entertainment event.

If you want a medical comparison, I am not offended at all that Cedars charges $5000 for cosmetic breast implants, even though I think the government should make the Epi-Pen free.

[bobphilo]

Time will tell. It could fail for that reason.

But if Stronach succeeds, I think it will be a good thing. Whereas a lot of people here seem to think it will be "unjust" because he priced it higher than people who refuse to spend money wish to pay.
Will you kindly stop referring to those who cannot afford these prices as people who "refuse to spend money". Not having a high disposable income is NOT the same as being cheap or a parasite.

[bobphilo]

No I am not. A necessary medical device is different from an entertainment event.

If you want a medical comparison, I am not offended at all that Cedars charges $5000 for cosmetic breast implants, even though I think the government should make the Epi-Pen free.

Good to see you have some shred of humanity. However, your elitist attacks on those who are not rich are deplorable.

[cj]

Time will tell. It could fail for that reason.

But if Stronach succeeds, I think it will be a good thing. Whereas a lot of people here seem to think it will be "unjust" because he priced it higher than people who refuse to spend money wish to pay.

It will succeed. It will get exactly what he wants, his and his daughter's friends and buddies there without the riff raff. It won't make money for him, but he doesn't care.

That is why horseplayers should be offended. This isn't about pricing to the market. It is about pricing to keep out undesirables.

[Garyinseattle]

For funsies here's the undercard in terms of stakes. Get ready for a slate of G3ish turf races that day


Honestly that's not a bad card at all. But like you said, it will be more grade 3/allowance type horses. Not the same type of cards that will be presented on triple crown or BC days, which again IMHO can justify higher ticket prices.

To charge a crazy high admission you'd better be offering a GREAT day of racing with top horses......that card, while not bad, is far from that.

[Garyinseattle]

Its just not that, its price gouging. I've been a season ticket holder for the Buffalo Bills for 26 years and I probably go to more concerts and sporting events than most people go to. I've seen almost every classic rock musician people can name, many multiple times. Here's the thing, I'm part of the middle class and that's what I like to do. The prices constantly go up and I bitch a little but still go. This is a gambling venture as well as entertainment, in other words, getting in the place guarantees that I will wager a good amount of money. Horse racing is literally chasing people away with deals like this.....so be it. I just booked my "free room" at Turning Stone for Thanksgiving and I don't bet 5 bucks a hand at the Black Jack tables. Its like this game does not even understand how gaming works these days. By the way, the room is like a palace.

Totally agree!


Great post man. At the end of the day the people/bettors who keep ALL tracks going are not the foo foo hat wearing types who go to the track once a year. They have zero impact on a track's success. It's the day to day bettors who play year round.

Stronarch is basically saying "I'm going to try and have a big raceday.....but instead of trying to attract the bettors who have built up GP I am going to turn my back on them for a day and invite a group of people who aren't bettors and rarely if ever go to the track"

A complete douchebag move on his part.


In your example it would be like saying "For this year's season all Bills ticket holders will get their normal seats at the current price, but when The Pats come to town we are going to charge you 20 times normal value....take it or leave it"

Except the Patriots area top notch huge rivalry game.......The Pegasus race will most likely end up being a horrendously watered-down Grade 1 with very few in any real Grade 1 types.

[dilanesp]

Good to see you have some shred of humanity. However, your elitist attacks on those who are not rich are deplorable.

I have no problem with the non-rich.

I have a problem with people who have money and refuse to spend it, hoping to force everything down to the lowest common denominator.

Go back to my central example-- airline travel. It isn't poor people who ruined airline travel. It's middle class people who refused to pay for decent service.

My attacks were on CHEAP people, not poor people. The kind of people who could spend $100 on a day at the races but refuse to, because they are offended at the price. The kind of people who criticize Del Mar for charging $10 to park, $10 to get in, $15 for a reserved seat, and $14 for a margarita on a big race day.

When things carry a high price point, they are better experiences. Del Mar is the nicest track in America. Do you want your tracks to look like Del Mar, or do you want your tracks to look like Playfair did before it closed?

If you want live racing to succeed, tracks are going to have to figure out how to attract people who are willing to spend money. Del Mar has done that, and makes money. So has Saratoga.

[dilanesp]

Stronarch is basically saying "I'm going to try and have a big raceday.....but instead of trying to attract the bettors who have built up GP I am going to turn my back on them for a day and invite a group of people who aren't bettors and rarely if ever go to the track"

A complete douchebag move on his part.

Why is that any different than what Churchill does with the Derby, or what the Breeders' Cup does?

[cj]

Del Mar is the nicest track in America. Do you want your tracks to look like Del Mar, or do you want your tracks to look like Playfair did before it closed?



That is certainly debatable. I've been several times and don't get me wrong, it is a great track. Personally I'd take Saratoga over it, and maybe Oaklawn too. And both of those are cheaper, Oaklawn way cheaper.

[cj]

Why is that any different than what Churchill does with the Derby, or what the Breeders' Cup does?

Because, as you'll see soon, there won't be the demand and the card won't live up to what is offered on those days. It is comical to think they are remotely the same. It is basically Donn day with a new gimmick, nothing more.

[Garyinseattle]

It will succeed. It will get exactly what he wants, his and his daughter's friends and buddies there without the riff raff. It won't make money for him, but he doesn't care.

That is why horseplayers should be offended. This isn't about pricing to the market. It is about pricing to keep out undesirables.


Exactly CJ. He has NBC coming in to do tv. He doesn't want people like myself who has been a fan/bettor for 30 years being seen on tv....you know....haven't showered in 4 days and consider shoes as something only the rich can afford. There is a very good chance I might just go to the bathroom outside by the finish line, but then again I probably wont have eaten for 3 days before the race so he is probably safe on that front.

But I do understand his concern....

[clocker7]

I don't understand why track operators should feel obliged to give away tickets so that scalpers can pocket the extra revenue. What do these characters want? $10 admission? $25?

[cj]

I don't understand why track operators should feel obliged to give away tickets so that scalpers can pocket the extra revenue. What do these characters want? $10 admission? $25?

You really think people would be scalping tickets for this if General Admission were offered for $10? Come on. I mean, yeah, they might try, but they'd lose money.

[Garyinseattle]

Why is that any different than what Churchill does with the Derby, or what the Breeders' Cup does?


First of all they don't charge 100 bucks. Second of all.....do you not see the difference in the race card quality between what this Pegasus day is going to be and the Triple Crown or BC ?


You can't compare them.

[clocker7]

You really think people would be scalping tickets for this if General Admission were offered for $10? Come on. I mean, yeah, they might try, but they'd lose money.
Then set up a bet, in which you are willing to put up a large sum of money that a weak crowd is in store. Define your parameters anyway you like, and let everyone on this site consider them.

[ultracapper]

If a "black market" for tickets developed, that would be better advertising for this event than anything Stronach could do himself. 5 or 6 craiglist ads would reach millions.

[burnsy]

First of all they don't charge 100 bucks. Second of all.....do you not see the difference in the race card quality between what this Pegasus day is going to be and the Triple Crown or BC ?


You can't compare them.

Right on! I get into Saratoga EVERYDAY for under 40 bucks, THE ENTIRE MEET!........one good card (at Toga) beats their crap for a month at GP! Its a total joke and anyone that attempts a comparison does not see why horse racing is going down the charts of spectator, sporting events.

Whose going to be entered anyway? Hard Aces, Mubtaahij, and Protonico along with other assorted flunkies besides Chrome and a couple others? What about the under card? That should be a real Grade 3 hoot just like someone else posted. Defending this, is half of this game's problems. They think they do everything right, especially marketing, where they could not be more wrong. I just shake my head and am not even surprised anymore. :bang:

[ronsmac]

It will succeed. It will get exactly what he wants, his and his daughter's friends and buddies there without the riff raff. It won't make money for him, but he doesn't care.

That is why horseplayers should be offended. This isn't about pricing to the market. It is about pricing to keep out undesirables.I think you're spot on.

[bobphilo]

I have no problem with the non-rich.

I have a problem with people who have money and refuse to spend it, hoping to force everything down to the lowest common denominator.


So you have no problem with the non-rich as long as they stay in their place and not attend posh events.

Even in the case of those that can afford it, that doesn't mean they should be criticized for not spending their money on an overpriced product. How dare Stronach try to soak people for twice the price of Derby admission, a much more important and historical race, than with this joke that has about one tenth the tradition and importance.

So apparently it's OK for the track to try to soak the public for every cent they can but people do not have the right to try to make admission affordable, what you call the lowest common denominator. That is the point where the public's ability to pay coincides with businesses' reasonable profits - not a bad thing and the basis of our economy.

[bobphilo]

It will succeed. It will get exactly what he wants, his and his daughter's friends and buddies there without the riff raff. It won't make money for him, but he doesn't care.

That is why horseplayers should be offended. This isn't about pricing to the market. It is about pricing to keep out undesirables.
True. This has nothing to do with business as this has to be the dumbest business move ever. Overpricing an inferior product is the worst way to make money.

The whole point is to keep the peasants in their place and give national coverage to his conspicuous consumption. Just as disgusting as the millionaires who lite their cigars with $100 bills during the depression.

I remember the time when Barbaro broke down and all were concerned except Stronach who callously said, "Oh well, that's racing".

[ultracapper]

Why is that any different than what Churchill does with the Derby, or what the Breeders' Cup does?

Dude,you're not going to get your point across. Most of them are looking at this particular issue different than you are. Personally, I could care less what he charges. As far as the public is concerned, every single person on this thread that has bitched about the event would bitch just as loud if they were allowed in free of charge and given a free half gallon of Crown Royal. "I just went to get the liquor. Did you see that allowance card dressed up like a stakes card? Not getting my betting money, no way. What's this clown trying to pull now?"

At least he's trying something. And he's putting money up. And asking others vested in the game to put up money. He's trying to put the "king" back into "The Sport of Kings" again, even if for only one day. Actually, a few days a year that is focused towards the upper crust would do this game good. I hope a bunch of Hollywood types show up, and the weekly rag coverage and all that. I know a majority of the board would rather see Garyinseattle pissing at the finish line, but, whether you want to believe it or not, my hopes are better for the game than yours in this case.

I remember near the end of Longacres when they opened the clubhouse up to general admission. It didn't take but a few weeks for it to lose all it's ambiance, and very quickly had no more appeal than the general grandstands.

[ultracapper]

True. This has nothing to do with business as this has to be the dumbest business move ever. Overpricing an inferior product is the worst way to make money.

The whole point is to keep the peasants in their place and give national coverage to his conspicuous consumption. Just as disgusting as the millionaires who lite their cigars with $100 bills during the depression.

I remember the time when Barbaro broke down and all were concerned except Stronach who callously said, "Oh well, that's racing".

Hahahaha!!! My god. Really?

For the past year Frank Stronach has been holed up in his office 20 hours a day. Think. Think. Think. How can I put the peasants in their place? Dammit, THINK!! BANG, GOT IT. I'll create a huge event at my race track and charge $100 to get in. I think this will work.

Get over yourself. For one day, for this very one day, Frank Stronach isn't thinking about the peasants, putting them in their place or otherwise.

[bobphilo]

Dude,you're not going to get your point across. Most of them are looking at this particular issue different than you are. Personally, I could care less what he charges. As far as the public is concerned, every single person on this thread that has bitched about the event would bitch just as loud if they were allowed in free of charge and given a free half gallon of Crown Royal. "I just went to get the liquor. Did you see that allowance card dressed up like a stakes card? Not getting my betting money, no way. What's this clown trying to pull now?"
So what's your point? Sure some people complain no matter what but it is an insult to the posters here who find Stronach's elitist policy disgraceful. Ae you calling all of us chronic complainers on this issue?
The reality here is where people are being charged $100 for general admission and $765 for restaurant reservations, not as a smart business move, but as a way to keep out all but the rich. There is plenty to complain about on this issue.

[Garyinseattle]

Dude,you're not going to get your point across. Most of them are looking at this particular issue different than you are. Personally, I could care less what he charges. As far as the public is concerned, every single person on this thread that has bitched about the event would bitch just as loud if they were allowed in free of charge and given a free half gallon of Crown Royal. "I just went to get the liquor. Did you see that allowance card dressed up like a stakes card? Not getting my betting money, no way. What's this clown trying to pull now?"

At least he's trying something. And he's putting money up. And asking others vested in the game to put up money. He's trying to put the "king" back into "The Sport of Kings" again, even if for only one day. Actually, a few days a year that is focused towards the upper crust would do this game good. I hope a bunch of Hollywood types show up, and the weekly rag coverage and all that. I know a majority of the board would rather see Garyinseattle pissing at the finish line, but, whether you want to believe it or not, my hopes are better for the game than yours in this case.

I remember near the end of Longacres when they opened the clubhouse up to general admission. It didn't take but a few weeks for it to lose all it's ambiance, and very quickly had no more appeal than the general grandstands.


Not eating for 3 days would not prevent me from pissing.....just sayin.....

[ultracapper]

So what's your point? Sure some people complain no matter what but it is an insult to the posters here who find Stronach's elitist policy disgraceful. Ae you calling all of us chronic complainers on this issue?
The reality here is where people are being charged $100 for general admission and $765 for restaurant reservations, not as a smart business move, but as a way to keep out all but the rich. There is plenty to complain about on this issue.

It's for ONE day, ONE event. And where did you get this idea that the prices were set to chase off the "unrich"? You read post # 16's rhetoric, then post #33's rhetoric, and on and on, and now the reality of the situation is Stronach set the price to eliminate poor people from coming.

You can sell any idea on the internet. You just need enough angry people spewing their viewpoints, and ba-zing, bizarro world. I'm sure if Garyinseattle came with his flip-flops and growling stomach, and C-note, he could walk in and relieve himself in designated relief rooms.

[Garyinseattle]

It's for ONE day, ONE event. And where did you get this idea that the prices were set to chase off the "unrich"? You read post # 16's rhetoric, then post #33's rhetoric, and on and on, and now the reality of the situation is Stronach set the price to eliminate poor people from coming.

You can sell any idea on the internet. You just need enough angry people spewing their viewpoints, and ba-zing, bizarro world. I'm sure if Garyinseattle came with his flip-flops and growling stomach, and C-note, he could walk in and relieve himself in designated relief rooms.


What are flip flops? Is that what one wears when hitting the gas pedal on their Bentley ?

[elhelmete]

What are flip flops? Is that what one wears when hitting the gas pedal on their Bentley ?

Nobody drives their own Bentley, DUH!

[Nitro]

Dude,you're not going to get your point across. Most of them are looking at this particular issue different than you are. Personally, I could care less what he charges. As far as the public is concerned, every single person on this thread that has bitched about the event would bitch just as loud if they were allowed in free of charge and given a free half gallon of Crown Royal. "I just went to get the liquor. Did you see that allowance card dressed up like a stakes card? Not getting my betting money, no way. What's this clown trying to pull now?"

At least he's trying something. And he's putting money up. And asking others vested in the game to put up money. He's trying to put the "king" back into "The Sport of Kings" again, even if for only one day. Actually, a few days a year that is focused towards the upper crust would do this game good. I hope a bunch of Hollywood types show up, and the weekly rag coverage and all that. I know a majority of the board would rather see Garyinseattle pissing at the finish line, but, whether you want to believe it or not, my hopes are better for the game than yours in this case.

I remember near the end of Longacres when they opened the clubhouse up to general admission. It didn't take but a few weeks for it to lose all it's ambiance, and very quickly had no more appeal than the general grandstands.Ultracapper I believe your O.A. sentiment is right on the money.
Why? Very simple: How many of these great handicappers even go to the track these days? I assure you those that do go generally have a very valid reason for going, and it’s not about winning or losing a $2, $20, or even a $50 bet.

It’s about time that someone steps forward and creates a perception of real value for this game (in the States) beyond wearing frivolous hats and attire to a special event.

[Grits]

Ultracapper, I've gone to Hallandale in February during peak season for 2 weeks at the time, staying in a hotel just across from the beach, about a mile or two from GP. It's not the Diplomat, yet it's a fine resort hotel.

At the track, I've sat in the seats and bet at the windows by the walking ring. I like it there.

I'm not a malcontent. And I didn't complain because I'm cheap. I complained because Frank's pricing is stupid considering he may not have the card, as I said earlier, to back it up. And, bettors including myself and all others, here, aren't parasitic! Given it's state, this sport should be available and welcoming for everyone, pretty and rich, or not. I'm not.

I also enjoy betting from Keeneland's track kitchen and Saratoga's backyard. Keeneland and Saratoga welcome everyone. Everyday. They're smart that way. There's something for all.

Oh. And those beauties at Saratoga drinking their bottles of Moet? For several years, I've seen them in the ladies room refilling them with tap water. So much for impressions. :lol:

Live and learn. ;)

[cj]

Then set up a bet, in which you are willing to put up a large sum of money that a weak crowd is in store. Define your parameters anyway you like, and let everyone on this site consider them.

How will I prove that he gave away most of the tickets to friends and special interests?

[cj]

Hahahaha!!! My god. Really?

For the past year Frank Stronach has been holed up in his office 20 hours a day. Think. Think. Think. How can I put the peasants in their place? Dammit, THINK!! BANG, GOT IT. I'll create a huge event at my race track and charge $100 to get in. I think this will work.

Get over yourself. For one day, for this very one day, Frank Stronach isn't thinking about the peasants, putting them in their place or otherwise.

You clearly haven't followed Stronach and his grand plans over the years.

[Grits]

You clearly haven't followed Stronach and his grand plans over the years.

True. Put Stronach in the search box above and UltraC will be reading 'til they cross the wire in the BC Classic. Missing the whole two day event. :faint:

It's debate time. OH NO..... I think I'll fix a Crown and water.

[thespaah]

Grits, there are cheap ways to enjoy football. You can watch it on TV for free. You can subscribe to Sunday Ticket for a couple of hundred dollars a year. You can buy bumper stickers and other inexpensive merchandise.

Or you can go to a high school game.

But team owners want their stadiums to be filled with people who spend money. And for good reason- if football fans demanded tickets be $5 and beer be $2, the stadiums would be run down, the experience would be lousy, etc.

I have no prejudice against the working class. But the fact remains, products directed to poor people tend to be poor products. Dollar Tree isn't as nice as Macy's.

My problem is with middle class cheapos. They are the reason airline service is so bad. And if everyone who wants to go to the track is cheap, you end up with dumpy tracks, or no tracks at all.

In contrast, at Del Mar, the fans, who include many middle class people, spend money, and as a result you get a nice experience.

So yeah, I think people who can afford things but want to be cheap are why we can't have nice things. If you can't afford Pegasus day, go on a different day. If you don't want to pay it, let those of us who do, support the sport rather than complaining about it.
So you just doubled down on the same insulting commentary..Thanks for confirming.....
Right a person like myself gets raked over the coals because I am smart with my money and do not spend unwisely or spend money on things of little value.....That's just wonderful....And I suppose you believe that because i go to a racetrack I am obligated to spend my money on things I view as over priced...That makes me a bad person....
Tell ya what. I like this site far too much and have gained the respect of many fellow posters here to fully express my disgust for your comments. I will leave it right there...We're done. No response from you is necessary.

[thespaah]

Ultracapper, I've gone to Hallandale in February during peak season for 2 weeks at the time, staying in a hotel just across from the beach, about a mile or two from GP. It's not the Diplomat, yet it's a fine resort hotel.

At the track, I've sat in the seats and bet at the windows by the walking ring. I like it there.

I'm not a malcontent. And I didn't complain because I'm cheap. I complained because Frank's pricing is stupid considering he may not have the card, as I said earlier, to back it up. And, bettors including myself and all others, here, aren't parasitic! Given it's state, this sport should be available and welcoming for everyone, pretty and rich, or not. I'm not.

I also enjoy betting from Keeneland's track kitchen and Saratoga's backyard. Keeneland and Saratoga welcome everyone. Everyday. They're smart that way. There's something for all.

Oh. And those beauties at Saratoga drinking their bottles of Moet? For several years, I've seen them in the ladies room refilling them with tap water. So much for impressions. :lol:

Live and learn. ;)
:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[proximity]

This has nothing to do with business as this has to be the dumbest business move ever.....

the fumbling of what's now known as maryland live! was worse by far but if you want to group this with horse wizard machines and the energy drink you'll get no argument from me.

the thing is if frank had actually followed my plan for triple crown casino at laurel park (where i proposed a casino hotel overlooking the track) he could've reaped enormous rates for preakness weekend. something there would've actually been a market for. :rolleyes:

[BMustang]

Belterra Park charges $100 to sit in their racebook on Derby Day.

They do this to run off the regulars who support them on a daily basis in order to comp their casino high rollers, who don't know which end of the horse crosses the wire first.

Casino mentality.

[dilanesp]

So you just doubled down on the same insulting commentary..Thanks for confirming.....
Right a person like myself gets raked over the coals because I am smart with my money and do not spend unwisely or spend money on things of little value.....That's just wonderful....And I suppose you believe that because i go to a racetrack I am obligated to spend my money on things I view as over priced...That makes me a bad person....
Tell ya what. I like this site far too much and have gained the respect of many fellow posters here to fully express my disgust for your comments. I will leave it right there...We're done. No response from you is necessary.

Economics says that if everyone saves their money and nobody spends, you get a depression. That's in addition to lowering the quality of goods and services like we have with the airlines.

Being what you call "smart" with your money is bad for your fellow human being.

[Jeff P]

Economics also says that consumers (and horseplayers) buy value.


-jp

.

[elhelmete]

Economics also says that consumers (and horseplayers) buy value.


-jp

.

Value is a personal concept IMHO, I know I have my own scale, my own curve of when something is a good value or not.

Regarding race tracks...

I think Del Mar is an awesome place to watch the races in person if you have some $$ to spend. Not necessarily a ton...just more than GA and some leftover for food and bev. General admission there, IMHO, is a pretty uncomfortable experience. I'm not a folding chair on asphalt kinda guy...but I'm not a Turf Club 24/7 guy either. I see no problem with both of these experiences co-existing.

Breeders Cup at Santa Anita is another example. I went in 2009 and had an awesome time for the $$ we spent and I felt I got excellent 'value.' In 2012, frankly I felt like it had jumped the shark and the $$ we spent did not meet my value criteria. Too many areas were subdivided for separate ticketing and food and bev had gotten really out of control and there seemed to be too much emphasis on non-racing stuff. That's just me...

I'd probably opt not to go to Pegasus day at $100 a pop. But would not begrudge anyone who did and certainly don't feel slighted or insulted.

[dilanesp]

Economics also says that consumers (and horseplayers) buy value.


-jp

.

True. But there's a difference between value (refusing to attend Pegasus day because you don't think Gulfstream is delivering a good enough experience for your money) and cheapness (being outraged that any racetrack might ask you to pay $100 to get in, no matter what they offer you for that price).

It's fine to seek value, it's bad for society to be cheap.

[Jeff P]

I think you're missing the big picture.

Value is ALWAYS determined by the customer - not the seller. (And not those who want the seller to be right.)

When a percentage of horse racing customers are outraged over the admission price for a special event day...

It doesn't mean that segment of the market is being cheap.

It means (for that segment of the market) the price is simply too high.




-jp

.

[dilanesp]

I think you're missing the big picture.

Value is ALWAYS determined by the customer - not the seller. (And not those who want the seller to be right.)

When a percentage of horse racing customers are outraged over the admission price for a special event day...

It doesn't mean that segment of the market is being cheap.

It means (for that segment of the market) the price is simply too high.




-jp

.

Think about airlines. It really is the best example of my point.

If people say to airlines "we won't pay $600 roundtrip to fly from LA to New York unless you offer us service commensurate with the price", you will end up with better service on the route.

But if people say to airlines "it's outrageous that you charge us $600 roundtrip to fly across the country, charge us $275 instead", then you will end up with terrible service.

[cj]

Think about airlines. It really is the best example of my point.

If people say to airlines "we won't pay $600 roundtrip to fly from LA to New York unless you offer us service commensurate with the price", you will end up with better service on the route.

But if people say to airlines "it's outrageous that you charge us $600 roundtrip to fly across the country, charge us $275 instead", then you will end up with terrible service.

I fly quite a bit and don't find service any worse now than in the past. I can live without a bag of pretzels or a bad lunch.

[burnsy]

[QUOTE=Jeff P]I think you're missing the big picture.

Value is ALWAYS determined by the customer - not the seller. (And not those who want the seller to be right.)

When a percentage of horse racing customers are outraged over the admission price for a special event day...

It doesn't mean that segment of the market is being cheap.

It means (for that segment of the market) the price is simply too high.

All I know is I'm glad I live in upstate NY when it comes to horse racing. I've bitched about the gov't. take over of NYRA, the exacta debacle and all the rest but they don't come close to the fleecing these other jack asses pull. You can get season passes for spit (the card includes 10% discounts for other events and food), park your car for free or close to it and the seats are not that expensive. Plus, most of the year its the best horses anyway. It doesn't even matter to me because I won't be down there until the week after this "Pegasus Hype" but it just seems like some of these people don't care about the customer at all. Somehow people have "brainwashed" them selves to think horse racing is popular enough to charge anything. Then they bitch about 5 horse fields, sinking handles and crappy attendance. Its a head scratcher.

I'm done bitching about NYRA, its one of the few racing organizations that at least tries to bring new people in. Seeing all of this, I think I took them for granted, but not anymore. In these parts (the Capital District) a high percentage of people are horse racing fans. They can't keep them out of Saratoga, its 10 bucks for Travers Day, a card that smoked almost everything the game offers. Its not just the money, of course for some it is but people also want to feel like they matter, that the seller actually gives a crap about the product and the customers wallet. The way attendance goes up here I am convinced that they are on to something that actually works. Charging 100 bucks for the "privilege" of risking your bankroll is NOT part of their equation......and their numbers smoke the competition in every category.

I'll hang around for a day or two near Miami then its Key West for me this year.......screw them! I like to gamble, I like horse racing. Yeah, I'm cheap, when you spit on my shoes. The same clowns defending this are the ones that cry about the take out. What's admission going to be if they lower the take out? 1000 bucks ore so....... :lol: give me a break. Its not the money, I can afford to go down there.....its an insult to my gambling and patronage.

Seeing this, I am ready to apologize for almost every bad thing I've said about NYRA. ;)

[MonmouthParkJoe]

Value is a personal concept IMHO, I know I have my own scale, my own curve of when something is a good value or not.

Regarding race tracks...

I think Del Mar is an awesome place to watch the races in person if you have some $$ to spend. Not necessarily a ton...just more than GA and some leftover for food and bev. General admission there, IMHO, is a pretty uncomfortable experience. I'm not a folding chair on asphalt kinda guy...but I'm not a Turf Club 24/7 guy either. I see no problem with both of these experiences co-existing.

Breeders Cup at Santa Anita is another example. I went in 2009 and had an awesome time for the $$ we spent and I felt I got excellent 'value.' In 2012, frankly I felt like it had jumped the shark and the $$ we spent did not meet my value criteria. Too many areas were subdivided for separate ticketing and food and bev had gotten really out of control and there seemed to be too much emphasis on non-racing stuff. That's just me...

I'd probably opt not to go to Pegasus day at $100 a pop. But would not begrudge anyone who did and certainly don't feel slighted or insulted.

I am glad you posted about the Breeders cup at Santa Anita.

I will be going to the track there for the first time for the BC, and both days figure to be polar opposites in terms of the experience.

Friday I will be doing GA for a chance to check out the grounds and get acquainted with the place. I would assume they will have a decent crowd but nothing like Saturday. Since I plan on imbibing quite a bit, it should be interesting with concessions prices.

Saturday I will be sitting with the connections of a horse in one of the big races in their owners box. It will be nice to see how the upper crust lives :D Here is to hoping it is open bar!

Some of the people from the program here are going as well. Most are doing GA, some bought seats for the weekend. I believe most grandstand reserved seating started around $125 or $140 a seat, but at least they have a guaranteed seat on what figures to be a packed day.

The nice thing, regardless of what option you choose, is the ability to choose and tailor your experience to your own price point. Cant wait :cool:

[thespaah]

I think you're missing the big picture.

Value is ALWAYS determined by the customer - not the seller. (And not those who want the seller to be right.)

When a percentage of horse racing customers are outraged over the admission price for a special event day...

It doesn't mean that segment of the market is being cheap.

It means (for that segment of the market) the price is simply too high.




-jp

.
Price is deemed excessive when cost to the consumer exceeds perceived or actual value.

[dilanesp]

I fly quite a bit and don't find service any worse now than in the past. I can live without a bag of pretzels or a bad lunch.

I fly quite a bit too. Here are some of the things we no longer have:

1. Free checked luggage.
2. Free in-flight meals.
3. Free in-flight snacks.
4. Free booze on international flights.
5. Free or low priced changes to tickets.
6. Free standby to an earlier flight.
7. In some flights, seats that are real airline seats and not Recaro slimlines that feel like bus benches.
8. Free curbside check-in.
9. Waiver of fees on overweight luggage.

Now, look, I actually do think that some people overstate the extent to which service on airlines has become horrible. I still like to fly. But the fact remains, the reason for all of these service deteriorations is precisely because of cheap people, the people thespahh calls "smart" with their money. They created a market where people ignore service and demand to pay $50 less on a flight, and in that sort of a market, you get the lowest common denominator in terms of service.

[dilanesp]

I am glad you posted about the Breeders cup at Santa Anita.

I will be going to the track there for the first time for the BC, and both days figure to be polar opposites in terms of the experience.

Friday I will be doing GA for a chance to check out the grounds and get acquainted with the place. I would assume they will have a decent crowd but nothing like Saturday. Since I plan on imbibing quite a bit, it should be interesting with concessions prices.

Saturday I will be sitting with the connections of a horse in one of the big races in their owners box. It will be nice to see how the upper crust lives :D Here is to hoping it is open bar!

Some of the people from the program here are going as well. Most are doing GA, some bought seats for the weekend. I believe most grandstand reserved seating started around $125 or $140 a seat, but at least they have a guaranteed seat on what figures to be a packed day.

The nice thing, regardless of what option you choose, is the ability to choose and tailor your experience to your own price point. Cant wait :cool:

One thing you will find weird is that Santa Anita is nowhere near packed on BC day. There will be several thousand empty seats in the grandstand and it's nothing like, for instance, the BC was at Monmouth (I attended that) or how Churchill or Saratoga looks on a big day. (Del Mar, next year, will be more crowded.)

Santa Anita feels packed at 75,000 or above. The last crowd I remember like that was the 1985 Santa Anita Handicap, which drew something like 83,000. The track functions absolutely smoothly and isn't packed at all with 55,000 there on Breeders' Cup Saturday.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

One thing you will find weird is that Santa Anita is nowhere near packed on BC day. There will be several thousand empty seats in the grandstand and it's nothing like, for instance, the BC was at Monmouth (I attended that) or how Churchill or Saratoga looks on a big day. (Del Mar, next year, will be more crowded.)

Santa Anita feels packed at 75,000 or above. The last crowd I remember like that was the 1985 Santa Anita Handicap, which drew something like 83,000. The track functions absolutely smoothly and isn't packed at all with 55,000 there on Breeders' Cup Saturday.

I was at the Monmouth one as well. I think it felt even more packed due to the rain and everyone huddling inside. The haskell with AP was packed, but still was able to get around relatively easy. I have heard nothing but great things about them hosting the BC especially having done it so many times already. Really looking forward to it.

[Garyinseattle]

I was at the Monmouth one as well. I think it felt even more packed due to the rain and everyone huddling inside. The haskell with AP was packed, but still was able to get around relatively easy. I have heard nothing but great things about them hosting the BC especially having done it so many times already. Really looking forward to it.


I thought The BC at Mth was great. While I am biased because I had my biggest winning day ever that day (don't think I have had a winning BC day since....shocking ) it was great having it rotate each year. While Santa ANita is obviously a great track it's getting somewhat tiresome having it at SA and CD/KEE each year. How Belmont isn't in the rotation is beyond ridiculous. Some of the greatest BC days were back at Belmont.

IMHO they have to figure a way to get it back to rotating....maybe SA,CD/KEE,Belmont, and GP (I think if Stronarch wants to have a premium day with a high admission that would be the day to do it......he would be justified to try and serve 760 dollar hamburgers on that kind of day).

Now some people will say that GP can't handle a huge crowd. That may be true in some ways.....but maybe if he didn't spend 30 million on that ugly chunk of copper in the Parking lot and instead put it towards bettering the track/expanding seating then maybe GP could be more of a consideration for BC. The times they had it at GP before Stronarch took over GP were a huge success.

[dilanesp]

I thought The BC at Mth was great. While I am biased because I had my biggest winning day ever that day (don't think I have had a winning BC day since....shocking ) it was great having it rotate each year. While Santa ANita is obviously a great track it's getting somewhat tiresome having it at SA and CD/KEE each year. How Belmont isn't in the rotation is beyond ridiculous. Some of the greatest BC days were back at Belmont.

IMHO they have to figure a way to get it back to rotating....maybe SA,CD/KEE,Belmont, and GP (I think if Stronarch wants to have a premium day with a high admission that would be the day to do it......he would be justified to try and serve 760 dollar hamburgers on that kind of day).

Now some people will say that GP can't handle a huge crowd. That may be true in some ways.....but maybe if he didn't spend 30 million on that ugly chunk of copper in the Parking lot and instead put it towards bettering the track/expanding seating then maybe GP could be more of a consideration for BC. The times they had it at GP before Stronarch took over GP were a huge success.

1. I loved BC day at Monmouth. Best clam chowder I have ever had . But powerful European trainers didn't, so it's unlikely to be back there.

2. Remember the BC has to make money. The reason it shows up at certain tracks so often is it makes a profit at those tracks.

[the little guy]

2. Remember the BC has to make money. The reason it shows up at certain tracks so often is it makes a profit at those tracks.



You get a LOT wrong, so bothering to correct all your posts would be a full time job, but I'm not going to let this one go....

...they run most of the time at Santa Anita as very few places, especially viable ones, want them. Yes, the weather is great, and it's a wonderful place, but a little honesty, even when California is involved, never hurt anybody.

[thespaah]

I thought The BC at Mth was great. While I am biased because I had my biggest winning day ever that day (don't think I have had a winning BC day since....shocking ) it was great having it rotate each year. While Santa ANita is obviously a great track it's getting somewhat tiresome having it at SA and CD/KEE each year. How Belmont isn't in the rotation is beyond ridiculous. Some of the greatest BC days were back at Belmont.

IMHO they have to figure a way to get it back to rotating....maybe SA,CD/KEE,Belmont, and GP (I think if Stronarch wants to have a premium day with a high admission that would be the day to do it......he would be justified to try and serve 760 dollar hamburgers on that kind of day).

Now some people will say that GP can't handle a huge crowd. That may be true in some ways.....but maybe if he didn't spend 30 million on that ugly chunk of copper in the Parking lot and instead put it towards bettering the track/expanding seating then maybe GP could be more of a consideration for BC. The times they had it at GP before Stronarch took over GP were a huge success.
Three reasons why the BC is only in CA and KY..
One, BC Ltd's partners want the best chance of perfect weather.
Two, Churchill Downs Inc has a lot of clout in the Thoroughbred industry. Also Kentucky is home to most of the nation's leading breeders. So BC Ltd gives KY tracks some home cooking.
Three, there is an anti NY bias..SO Cal, and CD Inc cannot stand the fact that in the Thoroughbred industry, all roads lead to NYRA.

[elhelmete]

You get a LOT wrong, so bothering to correct all your posts would be a full time job, but I'm not going to let this one go....

...they run most of the time at Santa Anita as very few places, especially viable ones, want them. Yes, the weather is great, and it's a wonderful place, but a little honesty, even when California is involved, never hurt anybody.

Can someone PLEASE for once summarize the reasons BC hasn't/won't be at Belmont any time soon?

PLEEEEAAAAASSSEEE?

[dilanesp]

You get a LOT wrong, so bothering to correct all your posts would be a full time job, but I'm not going to let this one go....

...they run most of the time at Santa Anita as very few places, especially viable ones, want them. Yes, the weather is great, and it's a wonderful place, but a little honesty, even when California is involved, never hurt anybody.

It's true that a lot of people don't want them, but it's also true that they make more money in Southern California than they do in New York, for instance. Attendance and average ticket revenue figures will confirm this.

[dilanesp]

Can someone PLEASE for once summarize the reasons BC hasn't/won't be at Belmont any time soon?

PLEEEEAAAAASSSEEE?

1. TLG is right that recently NYRA hasn't bid and doesn't really want it.
2. Everyone is right about NY weather.
3. I'm right that the BC makes more money in California.

[the little guy]

It's true that a lot of people don't want them, but it's also true that they make more money in Southern California than they do in New York, for instance. Attendance and average ticket revenue figures will confirm this.

See, this is the kind of inane stuff that you post ( not as bad as your elitism stuff, but wrong nonetheless ) that wears people out. The BC hasn't been in NY for 11 years. It's not a fair to compare ticketing revenue given the changes in price structures over the last decade. Add that to the BS attendance numbers they announce in CA ( they do it in KY, too, so it's hardly a CA thing ), and you can't back up these assertions. You just say stuff, especially if it has a bias towards CA. That doesn't make it true.

[Garyinseattle]

1. I loved BC day at Monmouth. Best clam chowder I have ever had . But powerful European trainers didn't, so it's unlikely to be back there.

2. Remember the BC has to make money. The reason it shows up at certain tracks so often is it makes a profit at those tracks.


I don't buy the weather thing. Is the weather in Kentucky THAT much better than NY in October/Nov. If weather was a huge reason why not have it at GP ?


As a bettor/fan for years it was a very special event having it all over. Even at Lone Star and AP back in the day was cool as hell . Now it's somewhat boring in either So Cal or Kentucky each year.

As far as the Euros , didn't NY attract a lot of Euros when they had it in NY ? It seems the cool weather in NY would be much better than the warm air of So Cal.

[Garyinseattle]

Three reasons why the BC is only in CA and KY..
One, BC Ltd's partners want the best chance of perfect weather.
Two, Churchill Downs Inc has a lot of clout in the Thoroughbred industry. Also Kentucky is home to most of the nation's leading breeders. So BC Ltd gives KY tracks some home cooking.
Three, there is an anti NY bias..SO Cal, and CD Inc cannot stand the fact that in the Thoroughbred industry, all roads lead to NYRA.

I hear ya Spaah....but is Kentucky really a much better choice in the fall because of the weather ?

I don't get all the anti NYRA crap.....really.......Belmont Stakes card is by far the best triple crown card every year. Hell......one could argue it's better than BC day. The people at BC Ltd need to get over their jealousy or whatever and get the race back there.

[Ian Meyers]

You get a LOT wrong, so bothering to correct all your posts would be a full time job, but I'm not going to let this one go....

...they run most of the time at Santa Anita as very few places, especially viable ones, want them. Yes, the weather is great, and it's a wonderful place, but a little honesty, even when California is involved, never hurt anybody.

What people don't realize is that the BC takes nearly ALL of the money and leaves very little for the tracks. Be it on-track wagering revenue, simulcast revenue, etc. NOBODY makes money on the BC except the BC.

If I ran NYRA I wouldn't want it either the way the economics are split up now. It's a sh*tload of work with very little payoff.

[Garyinseattle]

What people don't realize is that the BC takes nearly ALL of the money and leaves very little for the tracks. Be it on-track wagering revenue, simulcast revenue, etc. NOBODY makes money on the BC except the BC.

If I ran NYRA I wouldn't want it either the way the economics are split up now. It's a sh*tload of work with very little payoff.

Well.....that explains it. I wasn't familiar with the revenue split and all. But isn't CD all about CD and only doing what's best with for them. Are they cool with having The BC come in and basically take all the revenue? Seems odd the way CD does things.


On a side note.......Kershaw getting rocked....go Cubs.

[dilanesp]

See, this is the kind of inane stuff that you post ( not as bad as your elitism stuff, but wrong nonetheless ) that wears people out. The BC hasn't been in NY for 11 years. It's not a fair to compare ticketing revenue given the changes in price structures over the last decade. Add that to the BS attendance numbers they announce in CA ( they do it in KY, too, so it's hardly a CA thing ), and you can't back up these assertions. You just say stuff, especially if it has a bias towards CA. That doesn't make it true.

I am not comparing last decade, the little guy.

Compare 2003 at Santa Anita to 2005 in New York.

Compare 1993 at Santa Anita to 1995 and 1990 in New York.

Compare 1986 at Santa Anita to 1985 in New York.

I can demonstrate this without ANY reference to recent BC's, though recent BC's made more money at Churchill and Santa Anita than they did at Monmouth too. :)

Finally, as someone who has attended plenty of BC's, let me assure you that the numbers announced in California are not BS. I know exactly what a 50,000 person crowd at Santa Anita looks like.

(I agree with you that Churchill inflates crowds, however.)

[dilanesp]

What people don't realize is that the BC takes nearly ALL of the money and leaves very little for the tracks. Be it on-track wagering revenue, simulcast revenue, etc. NOBODY makes money on the BC except the BC.

If I ran NYRA I wouldn't want it either the way the economics are split up now. It's a sh*tload of work with very little payoff.

The payoff is that it probably improves the racing somewhat the rest of the meet. Belmont, for instance, has had better fall stakes when it hosted the BC, and Santa Anita does as well.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

I have always been curious as to the revenue split that comes with hosting the breeders cup. I do know that the BC takes alot, just not sure what the actual revenue share would be.

I do believe it would improve the fall belmont meet, especially with trainers wanting to make sure their horse had a start over the surface, so maybe bigger fields would be realized prior to hosting it. I do think it will be back in NY in the next 5-10 years and might coincide with when/if all the racing at aqueduct moves to belmont and money is spent in capex for belmont. Winterize some of the grandstand, make more luxury areas the breeders cup seems to want in the the venues that hold it. I also think once the whole issue with the state being involved gets resolved that would also help it get back to NY. Not having a BC in NY for so many years now is insane to me. It has been discussed plenty of times why California has hosted it so many times, just would like to see it rotate to more venues. And of course, perhaps coordinate with the NY Marathon that is taking place November 6th this year and seems to always fall on breeders cup weekend. It really takes away from the availability of hotel rooms, traffic issues, ect.

[EMD4ME]

What people don't realize is that the BC takes nearly ALL of the money and leaves very little for the tracks. Be it on-track wagering revenue, simulcast revenue, etc. NOBODY makes money on the BC except the BC.

If I ran NYRA I wouldn't want it either the way the economics are split up now. It's a sh*tload of work with very little payoff.

This is why I would create my own BC if I were NYRA.

You're FALL CHAMPIONSHEEP meet is reduced to nill now anyway.

Create your own BC by using the JCGC as the Classic and other G1's as the main meat and potatoes. Increase the purses, market the hell out of it and screw those BC selfish POS.

[djm1959]

100 bucks for a seat,,, what!!! ill bet tampa bay downs that day,,,,

most kids i try to get into track would rather put the money in slots ,, its a dying business except for triple crown and breeders cup days...shame

[bobphilo]

This is why I would create my own BC if I were NYRA.

You're FALL CHAMPIONSHEEP meet is reduced to nill now anyway.

Create your own BC by using the JCGC as the Classic and other G1's as the main meat and potatoes. Increase the purses, market the hell out of it and screw those BC selfish POS.
Great idea except that the BC is ingrained into the national psyche of the racing public, owners and breeders as the ultimate races. Sadly, any attempt to rival it, even if fair, is doomed to failure. At least in the foreseeable future.

[Alwaysonpoint36]

I don't get all the anti NYRA crap.....really.......Belmont Stakes card is by far the best triple crown card every year. Hell......one could argue it's better than BC day. The people at BC Ltd need to get over their jealousy or whatever and get the race back there.

You ain't lyin, that Belmont stakes day card was ridiculously strong this year

[dilanesp]

You ain't lyin, that Belmont stakes day card was ridiculously strong this year

The Belmont Stakes day has been, along with the success of Saratoga, one of the two great successes of NYRA as a purveyor of live racing in my lifetime. 30 years ago, they had trouble getting 40,000 people for the Belmont and the cards were much weaker.

But NYRA has never sold the tickets or been able to sustain the pricing for the BC that California and Kentucky tracks can do. That's just reality, and NYRA would probably not be hosting a lot of BC's even if they bid for them.

[the little guy]

The Belmont Stakes day has been, along with the success of Saratoga, one of the two great successes of NYRA as a purveyor of live racing in my lifetime. 30 years ago, they had trouble getting 40,000 people for the Belmont and the cards were much weaker.

But NYRA has never sold the tickets or been able to sustain the pricing for the BC that California and Kentucky tracks can do. That's just reality, and NYRA would probably not be hosting a lot of BC's even if they bid for them.


Rarely right but never in doubt.

[VeryOldMan]

Rarely right but never in doubt.

LOL - testify. I was there for Seattle Slew's Belmont win in 1977 - the upper level was literally rocking. Not figuratively.

I so want to experience that type of day again. That's why I enjoyed American Pharoah's run last year and hope to see California Chrome complete his monster season.

[dilanesp]

Rarely right but never in doubt.

The Little, the interesting thing about you is that you accuse me of having a California bias but in fact, I say plenty of nice things about New York racing (as well as Kentucky and other places).

You, on the other hand, are apparently EMPLOYED by NYRA. Are you ever going to post anything critical of your employer here?

I mean, there's someone biased in this discussion and it isn't me. You are projecting.

Last point: you made a snotty comment, but you didn't actually contest my point. The post you were responding to said that the Belmont Stakes cards were much worse in the 1980's and NYRA had trouble drawing 40,000 to the race back then. (The rest of the comment was opinion.)

Are those facts false? If they are, post the data. If they are not, perhaps you shouldn't have made a snarky comment implying I was full of it when in fact what I said is absolutely true.

Let's put it this way. I don't think your interactions with me are the kind of interactions that are going to convince me to raise my esteem for NYRA and the people who work for it. :)

[dilanesp]

LOL - testify. I was there for Seattle Slew's Belmont win in 1977 - the upper level was literally rocking. Not figuratively.

I so want to experience that type of day again. That's why I enjoyed American Pharoah's run last year and hope to see California Chrome complete his monster season.

VOM, Seattle Slew's Belmont was a Triple Crown attempt. It's pretty obvious that wasn't what I was talking about. I didn't think I needed to spell this out, but I guess I was wrong about that.

I said 30 years ago. 30 years ago the Belmont was won by Danzig Connection over John's Treasure and Ferdinand. What do you think the attendance was? :)

I think there were a couple of other stakes on the card, and the highlight was Ogygian winning a race at 7 furlongs. Compare that card to present day cards.

The funny thing is I was actually praising NYRA-- I think they have done a good job of strengthening the Belmont card to draw more fans to the track.

EDIT:

And here you go:

2012 Union Rags 13,866,953 85,811
2011 Ruler On Ice 10,098,573 55,779
2010 Drosselmeyer 7,598,840 45,243
2009 Summer Bird 8,998,630 52,861
2008 Da’ Tara 13,256,019 94,476
2007 Rags to Riches 8,843,720 46,870
2006 Jazil 8,958,323 61,168
2005 Afleet Alex 9,463,840 62,274
2004 Birdstone 14,461,402 120,139
2003 Empire Maker 12,973,555 101,864
2002 Sarava 12,045,114 103,222
2001 Point Given 10,581,093 73,857
2000 Commendable 8,379,055 67,810
1999 Lemon Drop Kid 10,035,906 85,818
1998 Victory Gallop 9,351,731 80,162
1997 Touch Gold 9,215,728 70,682
1996 Editor’s Note 6,869,916 40,797
1995 Thunder Gulch 7,385,655 37,171
1994 Tabasco Cat 7,588,803 42,695
1993 Colonial Affair 8,441,380 45,037
1992 A. P. Indy 8,013,028 50,204
1991 Hansel 8,947,444 51,766
1990 Go and Go 7,918,964 50,123
1989 Easy Goer 8,687,018 64,959
1988 Risen Star 8,065,395 56,223
1987 Bet Twice 9,266,120 64,772
1986 Danzig Connection 7,049,282 42,555
1985 Creme Fraiche 7,761,340 43,446

So there you go. In non-triple crown years, they drew 43k, 43k, 56k, 50k, 52k, 50k, 45k, 43k, etc....

In contrast, these days they draw 56k, 45k, 53k, 47k, 61k, 62k, 74k, 68k

So they used to average around 48k, and now they average 57k. (They also charge a higher ticket price, though I am sure I will be accused of "elitism" for noting that. :) )

And that's directly related to the product that NYRA is putting out there. Better racing on Belmont Day, plus better marketing, plus a price point that makes it an "event", equals a better day for NYRA.

[alhattab]

For work huh, must be nice!

Yes it has that whole hoighty toighty feel to it. I am almost positive 90 percent of the people there dont even catch a glimpse of the races. That being said, depending on where I am that time next year I will go if they have betting. Otherwise I dont care much for that type of crowd. :D

Hadn't seen this piece before. It is an accurate account of Far Hills (which everyone around here familiar with it does refer to as The Hunt). There used to be a Monmouth County Hunt at the Haskell farm- same Haskell who was one of Monmouth Park's founders- which I understand was equally debaucherous.

http://nypost.com/2016/10/16/the-hunt-horse-race-is-really-just-a-drunken-bro-fest/

[VeryOldMan]

VOM, Seattle Slew's Belmont was a Triple Crown attempt. It's pretty obvious that wasn't what I was talking about. I didn't think I needed to spell this out, but I guess I was wrong about that.

Nice stats - no snark. Your tone is a bit much. That's all. Love that we can argue about this on the board.