Suicide by cop?

[JustRalph]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/28/us/california-police-shooting/index.html

Pointed a vape?

[Robert Fischer]

yes, and he got smoked

[johnhannibalsmith]

The story that I read sure made it sound like that was probably the case.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm tired of this shit. Imagine if white people protested every time a white person was killed by police. That way, white people and black people would be protesting all the time, nothing would get done, and the police would all quit and go home.

Nice world we're heading to, eh?

Social media can **** off in this instance. Causing more harm then good.

[Inner Dirt]

I think these BLM idiots want cops to be reactive and never shoot unless shot at. They are either really stupid, watch too much cops and robbers on TV or actually think cops should put themselves and the public they are hired to protect in unnecessary danger to keep from harming the mostly career criminals that will engage a cop. I guess they would be happy if cops got killed at a higher rate than those they are trying to arrest.

[Robert Fischer]

At least with the people blindly defending police in the Terrence Crutcher case, there was some debate about whether or not the car windows were up. (although many sadly argued about 'obeying commands' rather than whether or not he was 'posing a threat by reaching into a vehicle')


here are some of the blind accusers in this 'El Cajon' case:

"Doesn't look like that to me. Looks like he was in the middle of raising his arms, but then again you can't tell much from the awful still the cops release."

"The man was mentally challenged. If police can arrest an armed gunman from a movie theatre that killed people and that people on the case claim is "mentally ill" surely they can apprehend a mentally challenged man with NO WEAPON after he had a seizure."

"The picture is just that. It's a still of a moment in time. We have yet to see what occurred in the moment(s) before. Let's suppose one officer was in fact preparing to use a taser, while being covered by the 2nd officer (as stated in the info provided). Let's further suppose that the man who died was not given a whole lot of time to strike a perfect pose."

[Robert Fischer]

This stuff is not only an example of a polarized system, it's also a social experiment.

Difficult to join a team and be fully committed to a narrative, and remain rational.

Once the commitment is made, the original incentives (actual examples of unfairness) can be removed, and a significant number of people will continue to honor their commitment.

Cialdini has some good, easy to read stuff on "Commitment and Consistency"

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't get your hang up with obeying a police officer.

I thought this whole hippie counter-culture thing died years ago.

I'm no idiot. If a cop tells me to do something, I'm gonna do it...especially if it's something rather basic like, "don't move" or "put your hands up" or "put that cigarette out."

Where is the upside to disobeying those commands? Do you think it wise?

Where has common sense gone?

[Robert Fischer]

I don't get your hang up with obeying a police officer.

I thought this whole hippie counter-culture thing died years ago.

I'm no idiot. If a cop tells me to do something, I'm gonna do it...especially if it's something rather basic like, "don't move" or "put your hands up" or "put that cigarette out."

Where is the upside to disobeying those commands? Do you think it wise?

Where has common sense gone?

My objection is the use of non-compliance as a justification for lethal force.

disobeying police should be punished legally

disobeying police is irrational, and increases the chances of being ticketed, fined, jailed, killed, etc...
I advise everyone to obey police! It's great advice.

It just isn't a death sentence unless you actively do something that threatens the officer in a way that justifies use of lethal force.

Being out of control emotionally, being high on drugs, having some issue with mental capacity, etc... isn't a death sentence.
If the police can't gain control of the situation, it justifies force of the non-lethal variety; being tazed, tackled, arrested etc...

[AndyC]

My objection is the use of non-compliance as a justification for lethal force.

disobeying police should be punished legally

disobeying police is irrational, and increases the chances of being ticketed, fined, jailed, killed, etc...
I advise everyone to obey police! It's great advice.

It just isn't a death sentence unless you actively do something that threatens the officer in a way that justifies use of lethal force.

Being out of control emotionally, being high on drugs, having some issue with mental capacity, etc... isn't a death sentence.
If the police can't gain control of the situation, it justifies force of the non-lethal variety; being tazed, tackled, arrested etc...

I fully agree that non-compliance should not be a justification for legal force. In the case in question, the non-compliant person pulled an object form his pocket/waistline and aimed it directly at the cops in a shooting stance. What reaction would you have thought to be appropriate? A person out of control emotionally, high on drugs or lacking mental capacity are just as dangerous as any other person with a lethal weapon.

[Inner Dirt]

I don't get your hang up with obeying a police officer.

I thought this whole hippie counter-culture thing died years ago.

I'm no idiot. If a cop tells me to do something, I'm gonna do it...especially if it's something rather basic like, "don't move" or "put your hands up" or "put that cigarette out."

Where is the upside to disobeying those commands? Do you think it wise?

Where has common sense gone?

Moving cross country I made multiple trips a half dozen years ago. Driving an SUV through multiple "drug corridors" and stopping for ATMs in drug areas with out of state plates got me pulled over more times than I could count. (My Garmin seemed to give me the scenic route through bad neighborhoods to get cash) Yes I was profiled and I am white! Anyway all the BS stops for things I didn't do (I never got a ticket) got annoying.

In spite of the harassment when pulled over I rolled down the window and put both my hands on the steering wheel. I answered all questions politely. Strangely enough I was let go usually in less than a minute. The fastest stop was by an Arkansas State Trooper. He let me go right when he came to the window, he said "Most drug runners don't bring their cat." Wonder how many people get shot by cops that act like I did?

[PaceAdvantage]

It's funny. People in this world these days...they want the police to protect them against some of the most vile scumbags in the world, but now we demand that they do this "nicely" and make sure nobody gets hurt. :rolleyes:

It's become nothing but a joke. Nobody is going to want to be a cop anymore, and we are going to be seeing WAY MORE shootings like the Terence Crutcher killing, by cops who don't have the ability to handle situations.

[ReplayRandall]

It's funny. People in this world these days...they want the police to protect them against some of the most vile scumbags in the world, but now we demand that they do this "nicely" and make sure nobody gets hurt. :rolleyes:

It's become nothing but a joke. Nobody is going to want to be a cop anymore, and we are going to be seeing WAY MORE shootings like the Terence Crutcher killing, by cops who don't have the ability to handle situations.

It's called the decay of a society......What's happening with the police has already happened with the teachers of our schools in our once great nation...

[CincyHorseplayer]

I can only speak of Cincinnati and mainly the west side of. Last year across town a kid called the cops on himself in a "suicide by cop" intent and he killed an Asian police officer in the process of getting killed himself. On my side of town since 2 major projects near downtown closed and the west side has been flooded with the former tenants, many neighborhood bars have been closed down because they were getting robbed several times weekly, as had nearly every store including the damn bakery, and we have had 2 incidents like the one above happen where suspects pulled bb guns and were killed by the police. And we had a clerk kill an armed robber also. In short the lack of tolerance from both the police and residents have led to the number of robberies falling precipitously. Thank god. As Giuliani said on MSNBC after the Dallas shootings, black people commit nearly 70% of the murders in this country and police on black murders total less than 1%. Where is the outrage in their own neighborhoods? I see it as people who want to inspire fear to get respect and basically do whatever they please, with no further proof than they are offing each other in record numbers in this city. But it's all the cop's fault. Again as Giuliani said none of these officers want to go to theses neighborhoods where all the murders occur but are forced to because of the fact. They should worry less about an officer than the kid down the street. This outrage is a complete hypocrisy IMO.

[MONEY]

I have been pulled over multiple times in the last few years.
My cars are always road worthy & my paperwork is always up to date,
and I did not break any laws.

On two occasions the car stops lasted more than 6 hours.
I am definitely not white.

The car stops always occur after the police follow me for about 5 minutes.
My Latino last name probably has a lot to do with me getting stopped.

I always cooperate & keep my cool, no matter how pissed off I get.

My son has had similar experiences.
He bought a motorcycle & won't drive a car unless absolutely necessary.
It takes only a few seconds for cops to search a motorcycle.

[Inner Dirt]

I have been pulled over multiple times in the last few years.
My cars are always road worthy & my paperwork is always up to date,
and I did not break any laws.

On two occasions the car stops lasted more than 6 hours.
I am definitely not white.

The car stops always occur after the police follow me for about 5 minutes.
My Latino last name probably has a lot to do with me getting stopped.

I always cooperate & keep my cool, no matter how pissed off I get.

My son has had similar experiences.
He bought a motorcycle & won't drive a car unless absolutely necessary.
It takes only a few seconds for cops to search a motorcycle.

You can't just post that and not explain what happened.

[PaceAdvantage]

You can't just post that and not explain what happened.I think maybe he is saying the reason he is stopped and searched is because he is not white.

He's also an ex-cop.

Not to be flippant about this, but wouldn't identifying yourself as ex-law enforcement get the stops down to about 3 hours? :eek:

[MONEY]

You can't just post that and not explain what happened.

1st they called the dogs.
Then they told me that the dogs got a positive hit on my car for drugs, & that my car looked like it had after market secret compartments built into it.
Then they took me and my car to the police station & they made me wait in a locked room while they thoroughly searched my car.
Then I was released with no summonses.

[PaceAdvantage]

BTW, my brother, who is whiter than me by a lot...lol...got a gun pulled on him during a traffic stop a few years ago because he went for his glove compartment a little too quickly for the cop's liking. Never reached inside the glove compartment mind you...never even opened it...just started going there to get his info for the officer.

So it's not just non-whites who get guns pulled on them by the cops for just moving the wrong way.

[Robert Fischer]

I fully agree that non-compliance should not be a justification for legal force. In the case in question, the non-compliant person pulled an object form his pocket/waistline and aimed it directly at the cops in a shooting stance. What reaction would you have thought to be appropriate? A person out of control emotionally, high on drugs or lacking mental capacity are just as dangerous as any other person with a lethal weapon.

They acted 100% appropriately. This was without any doubt, a justified use of lethal force.

[OTM Al]

BTW, my brother, who is whiter than me by a lot...lol...got a gun pulled on him during a traffic stop a few years ago because he went for his glove compartment a little too quickly for the cop's liking. Never reached inside the glove compartment mind you...never even opened it...just started going there to get his info for the officer.

So it's not just non-whites who get guns pulled on them by the cops for just moving the wrong way.
Nassau cop jerked his arm toward his gun on me when I was trying to get the Longines presenting sponsor into the winner's circle for the Belmont Stakes last year. Wearing a suit with credentials and the NYRA employee tie. I didn't have a winner's circle credential (did have several others) but the sponsors did and all i was trying to do was to get them inside, not myself. The officer still acted that way and was uncooperative until his supervisor told him to stop. I somehow managed to just keep talking and not react to him when he did that but can't tell you how i managed. What was that guy thinking when his first reaction was to move toward his gun for something like that? To me that represents the real problem.

[Inner Dirt]

1st they called the dogs.
Then they told me that the dogs got a positive hit on my car for drugs, & that my car looked like it had after market secret compartments built into it.
Then they took me and my car to the police station & they made me wait in a locked room while they thoroughly searched my car.
Then I was released with no summonses.

My Aunt who like me is white got the same treatment from the San Ysidro border patrol agents. The "hit" was caused by chemicals in art supplies she was bringing from Tijuana (See lives in Mexico), to my cousin in San Diego.
She is as passive as they come, she was detained for hours, treated like crap, and let go without even an apology. The art supplies were in plain site, yet they disassembled the inside of her SUV and of course did not put it back together. I walked and drove across frequently at that border crossing while making investments at the sportsbooks. My personal opinion at the time, late 80's to 90's is that the agents manning the crossings are on the low end of the law enforcement food chain.

[JustRalph]

I have been pulled over multiple times in the last few years.
My cars are always road worthy & my paperwork is always up to date,
and I did not break any laws.

On two occasions the car stops lasted more than 6 hours.
I am definitely not white.

The car stops always occur after the police follow me for about 5 minutes.
My Latino last name probably has a lot to do with me getting stopped.

I always cooperate & keep my cool, no matter how pissed off I get.

My son has had similar experiences.
He bought a motorcycle & won't drive a car unless absolutely necessary.
It takes only a few seconds for cops to search a motorcycle.

Jesus, I can't believe this shit. 6 hours?

[MONEY]

Jesus, I can't believe this shit. 6 hours?
I won't believe it if it didn't happen to me.

[JustRalph]

I won't believe it if it didn't happen to me.

I used to work drug interdiction with the State Highway Patrol in Ohio. We had a rule. 2 hours and we better have a warrant. We had a couple of gas stations that worked with us. If we brought in a car they would move it to the front of the line and start pulling off parts. At the 90 minute mark a Sgt. had to make a decision on whether we get a warrant. 90% of the time. No warrant. We could find something almost always in the first 90 minutes.

During that time, the 1990's, anything over 2 hours was considered an arrest. That's where we got our time limit.

[fast4522]

I used to work drug interdiction with the State Highway Patrol in Ohio. We had a rule. 2 hours and we better have a warrant. We had a couple of gas stations that worked with us. If we brought in a car they would move it to the front of the line and start pulling off parts. At the 90 minute mark a Sgt. had to make a decision on whether we get a warrant. 90% of the time. No warrant. We could find something almost always in the first 90 minutes.

During that time, the 1990's, anything over 2 hours was considered an arrest. That's where we got our time limit.

I am missing something, aren't dogs like 100'%

[MONEY]

I used to work drug interdiction with the State Highway Patrol in Ohio. We had a rule. 2 hours and we better have a warrant. We had a couple of gas stations that worked with us. If we brought in a car they would move it to the front of the line and start pulling off parts. At the 90 minute mark a Sgt. had to make a decision on whether we get a warrant. 90% of the time. No warrant. We could find something almost always in the first 90 minutes.

During that time, the 1990's, anything over 2 hours was considered an arrest. That's where we got our time limit.

In NY we had a 2 hour time limit, even if we pressed charges. Get them to the court house (AKA Central Booking) or release them. If we took more than 2 hours we had to have a good explanation in writing or NYS would compensate the detained people with cash and we would get written up.

I am missing something, aren't dogs like 100'%
Drug dogs suck.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2015/08/04/federal-appeals-court-drug-dog-thats-barely-more-accurate-than-a-coin-flip-is-good-enough/?utm_term=.d7481d4a6f0e

[JustRalph]

I am missing something, aren't dogs like 100'%

I actually laughed out loud in my living room......

[JustRalph]

http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2016/09/29/authorities-twice-attempted-to-deport-man-killed-by-police-in-el-cajon-calif-tuesday/

The plot thickens