Trips handicapping service...

[teddy]

Why doesnt one of you watch every video every day and sell a subscription service for wide runs, speed dueled, ect ect. Would take you a 3 hour aday at most and you could surely get 100 gamblers to pay $50 a month. If you are willing to do a job nobody wants to do then thats a great business opportunity. I think it would be fun for someone retired..or unemployed. Plus the positive impact on your wagering !

[EMD4ME]

Why doesnt one of you watch every video every day and sell a subscription service for wide runs, speed dueled, ect ect. Would take you a 3 hour aday at most and you could surely get 100 gamblers to pay $50 a month. If you are willing to do a job nobody wants to do then thats a great business opportunity. I think it would be fun for someone retired..or unemployed. Plus the positive impact on your wagering !

If I got paid up front for it from 500 people, Id consider it.

[cj]

Why doesnt one of you watch every video every day and sell a subscription service for wide runs, speed dueled, ect ect. Would take you a 3 hour aday at most and you could surely get 100 gamblers to pay $50 a month. If you are willing to do a job nobody wants to do then thats a great business opportunity. I think it would be fun for someone retired..or unemployed. Plus the positive impact on your wagering !

Three hours a day? No way. It would take MUCH longer than that for every track every day.

[woodbinepmi]

It usually takes me 3 to 4 hours to chart one racing day at Hong Kong.

[teddy]

Well I've never tried it but I'm guessing during the week you've got about 80 races. I would just want the obvious ones not a breakdown of everybody in the race. And only horses that finished with and for lengths . If you're trying to beat Hong Kong that is one tough circuit from my understanding. Believe me if I had 50 people they would be paying upfront after a 30 day free trial. But you would just get a list of the horses every day that I thought were pertinent.

[v j stauffer]

I'd rather sell my blood plasma.

To do that properly would take 3 hours per track.

Wow. That hurts just thinking about it. :bang:

[thaskalos]

If I got paid up front for it from 500 people, Id consider it.
If we pay you "up front"...do we get a money-back guarantee?

[teddy]

Vick lol...your crazy man... your unemployed so you want to help me..hah. Plasma . I have employees that do that... they are always tired

[EMD4ME]

If we pay you "up front"...do we get a money-back guarantee?

I'd be open to that but what would the guarantee entail?

More specifically, if I guanteed the best trip notes possible BUT the player is a moron who doesn't know how to bet, am I liable to give them a refund because they can't make the proper wagers?

Even more specifically, if I'm giving someone the most detailed notes on the planet, for every horse in every race at a track AND the user makes money on those solid trip notes BUT loses the money on other races, am I liable for a refund?

Also, what if the player is unable to process the trip notes successfully? I can, in super detailed english, give someone pre gate till gallop out, what every horse did AND explain race flow, dynamics, bias and other amazing unseen (via pps) descriptions in my notes.

If the reader is incapable of leveraging that info into profit, should I be held liable for a refund?

[EMD4ME]

What someone would be paying for, is MY EYES and my interpretation of what happened, IN ADDITION to my factual documentation of "detailed pre gate till gallop out" trip notes.

Quite frankly, IMHO, if I gave someone all that and they wanted a refund, I'd fire them as a client in .000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds :lol:

[pandy]

Why doesnt one of you watch every video every day and sell a subscription service for wide runs, speed dueled, ect ect. Would take you a 3 hour aday at most and you could surely get 100 gamblers to pay $50 a month. If you are willing to do a job nobody wants to do then thats a great business opportunity. I think it would be fun for someone retired..or unemployed. Plus the positive impact on your wagering !

It's not that easy to get 100 gamblers to pay $50 a month.

[EMD4ME]

It's not that easy to get 100 gamblers to pay $50 a month.

After you break it down per month, I pay $143 a month for my Unlimited Yearly Formulator and Unlimited Yearly TFUS.

If I didn't have my tools, I would handle 10% of what I do.

I don't see how any horseplayer should play without the proper tools.

$50 is nothing. I'd charge over $200 a month for my notes. Just for 1 track.

Not that I am that great or anything like that.....Ask Vic, TLG, Mountainman, Paul Cornman, RR, Thaskalos, yourself, others on here, Dahoss9698, Kash (Dahoss9698 and Kash are best friends :D ) and others how much their proprietary information is worth to them.

Trip notes and bias notes are blood sweat and tears of work that is often taking someone so much time, that they sacrifice sleep for it.

[steveb]

Three hours a day? No way. It would take MUCH longer than that for every track every day.

indeed it would.
one syndicate had a facility in manila philippines, where they had 40 guys doing nothing but watching the videos from countries of interest.
all trained to to it a certain way.
it got shut down in the end i think(i had already left that team), as the extra profits generated did not cover the costs involved.

[thaskalos]

I'd be open to that but what would the guarantee entail?

More specifically, if I guanteed the best trip notes possible BUT the player is a moron who doesn't know how to bet, am I liable to give them a refund because they can't make the proper wagers?

Even more specifically, if I'm giving someone the most detailed notes on the planet, for every horse in every race at a track AND the user makes money on those solid trip notes BUT loses the money on other races, am I liable for a refund?

Also, what if the player is unable to process the trip notes successfully? I can, in super detailed english, give someone pre gate till gallop out, what every horse did AND explain race flow, dynamics, bias and other amazing unseen (via pps) descriptions in my notes.

If the reader is incapable of leveraging that info into profit, should I be held liable for a refund?

I was only kidding, EMD. :)

To secure your services...I would pay whatever amount you would ask of me.

[thaskalos]

It's not that easy to get 100 gamblers to pay $50 a month.

The gamblers who would refuse to pay $50 a month to improve their game are the exact same ones who give "gambling" the bad name that it's currently stigmatized with. "Improvement" in gambling doesn't come cheap.

[EMD4ME]

I was only kidding, EMD. :)

To secure your services...I would pay whatever amount you would ask of me.

I kinda knew you were but even if you were, the question was thought provoking. Not just for me but for others as well.

Would you sell your closers strategy in dirt races? I would say not and a price has to be paid to do so.

Ha ha, I feel bad charging you for losers :lol: :lol: :lol:

[pandy]

After you break it down per month, I pay $143 a month for my Unlimited Yearly Formulator and Unlimited Yearly TFUS.

If I didn't have my tools, I would handle 10% of what I do.

I don't see how any horseplayer should play without the proper tools.

$50 is nothing. I'd charge over $200 a month for my notes. Just for 1 track.

Not that I am that great or anything like that.....Ask Vic, TLG, Mountainman, Paul Cornman, RR, Thaskalos, yourself, others on here, Dahoss9698, Kash (Dahoss9698 and Kash are best friends :D ) and others how much their proprietary information is worth to them.

Trip notes and bias notes are blood sweat and tears of work that is often taking someone so much time, that they sacrifice sleep for it.

I agree, but I'm just saying, it isn't easy to sell an sort of handicapping service, regardless of how good the information is.

[EMD4ME]

I agree, but I'm just saying, it isn't easy to sell an sort of handicapping service, regardless of how good the information is.

I agree. 99% of horseplayers are stubborn and want to figure it out on their own. I don't blame them in a way.

[rsetup]

The gamblers who would refuse to pay $50 a month to improve their game are the exact same ones who give "gambling" the bad name that it's currently stigmatized with. "Improvement" in gambling doesn't come cheap.Some don't equate improving one's game with buying info/services from others. Too many are dependent on others for their opinions. No matter how much they think they make something their own. If Bris, Racing Form, TFUS, the Sheets, Schwartz, Platt and some others were to shut down, there'd be a lot of players walking around with their thumb up their ass.

[Tom]

there'd be a lot of players walking around with their thumb up their ass.

You mean they would play like you do? :rolleyes:

Doesn't Logic Dictates do trip notes for NYRA?

[Quesmark]

Why doesnt one of you watch every video every day and sell a subscription service for wide runs, speed dueled, ect ect. Would take you a 3 hour aday at most and you could surely get 100 gamblers to pay $50 a month. If you are willing to do a job nobody wants to do then thats a great business opportunity. I think it would be fun for someone retired..or unemployed. Plus the positive impact on your wagering !
Better to find 10 clients paying $500. a month who wouldn't have their plays as impacted by the 90 who didn't subscribe,and a lot easier to keep track of financially for the service provider.

[mrhorseplayer]

I already do that for california/ny racing

[teddy]

Ben Franklin would say get 1 dollar from 100 people vs 100 from one. I get 15 a week for about 300. But they are addicted to ecigs. It works out very well.

The benifit is you provide a service to busy people or lazy people. If they lose anyway its because they bet other stuff...which I know I would do from past experience. Super players would have some great key long shots. Pick 3 players would have a big edge with a key horse. Im going to keep it going Handicapping the plays with the info.....17 plays the next few days and some are 20 to one shots. Well.....see. There is no way in hell I would provide detailed info on each horse. I would do that for one track but never sell it for 50.

[thaskalos]

Some don't equate improving one's game with buying info/services from others. Too many are dependent on others for their opinions. No matter how much they think they make something their own. If Bris, Racing Form, TFUS, the Sheets, Schwartz, Platt and some others were to shut down, there'd be a lot of players walking around with their thumb up their ass.

The more often the horseplayer plays the game...the more sure he is to realize that he is going to have to pay for someone else's product or service somewhere down the line. There are too many facets to this game and, as the game gets more and more competitive...there is a constant call for improving our game in order to stay in step with our competition. We can't do at all ourselves...because the time constraints that we face are too much of an obstacle.

Where can I possibly find the time to become as proficient at replay-watching as EMD4ME or ReplayRandall? How can I possibly construct professional-level speed and pace figures for all the different tracks that I intend to play...not to mention compiling trustworthy track bias information for the same tracks? Why shouldn't I pay for these services...if they become available to me?

Of course...the infrequent bettor isn't forced to operate under such time constraints. But this player isn't likely to profit from this game either.

[rsetup]

These services can also not become available to you at some point down the line. I parse PDFs. Every so often they're 'tweaked' and I have to revise my REGEX code. But because I know regular expressions, it's a relatively trivial rewrite. Why would I give these blood suckers money for their flawed data? Same goes for figures: automate the process. You've been playing the game a long time. Who knows it better than you? My approach is to do it my way. You don't need high level skills. If you need to really do something and apply yourself, I'm sure you can do it.

[pandy]

I could be wrong, but I think that the main reason why The Sheets and Thoroughgraph are still in business is because they have quite a few customers from the racing industry - trainers, owners, breeders. You can't sell any sort of high priced service to horseplayers. There aren't enough of them and they either can't afford it or don't want to pay a lot for handicapping information. I'm not even sure that DRF would still be publishing if it had to rely on horseplayers.

[classhandicapper]

Doesn't Logic Dictates do trip notes for NYRA?

Yes. I was a customer of his for a long time years back.

[pandy]

Yes. I was a customer of his for a long time years back.


He never moved his business to the internet, which is odd.

[citygoat]

Is there one place I can get all the equipment changes for the day without going track to track?All the changes listed in one spot?

[rsetup]

MlYou mean they would play like you do? :rolleyes:

Doesn't Logic Dictates do trip notes for NYRA?They roped you in with the Sartin BS and you've been paying through the nose ever since. It is what it is, Tommy

[Tom]

MlThey roped you in with the Sartin BS and you've been paying through the nose ever since. It is what it is, Tommy

Must hard to keep posting like you know what is going on with everyone else when in fact, you are the most clueless troll ever. From board to board, you are well known as a loser who is all talky and no walky. Sorry you were never able to master that pesky multiplication that Sartin used. Not everyone is up to it, you know.

Pathetic little wanna be.:lol:

[Dan Montilion]

I had the pleasure of working with Ron Cox on the the Northern California Track Record. We covered Bay Meadows and Golden Gate Fields. Offered trip notes, bias notes, pace and final time figures. It was if I do say so my self. State of the art for the time. We mailed weekly, there was a comment on every horse that raced the previous week. Subscribers could file into a binder and thumb back. Frankly we were good at what we did. This was prior to state wide or nation wide simulcasting. At the height we had 60 subscribers at $360 per meet.

A few years ago I thought I would try doing the same product on the southern California circuit. I advertised on this site, Calracing.com as well as a few appearances on local radio in both northern and southern California. I offered the product, which was now sent via e-mail in a pdf. Free for a good 6 weeks. I had 37 handicappers during the free period. I had very positive feedback. We caught some very subtle bias's, provided some handicapping and wagering editorials. Once again I can say I had positive comments. When It came time to charge. And I was very cost effective, I had one person subscribe.

It is possible the product was not any good. However, I seriously doubt that.

[DeltaLover]

Why doesnt one of you watch every video every day and sell a subscription service for wide runs, speed dueled, ect ect. Would take you a 3 hour aday at most and you could surely get 100 gamblers to pay $50 a month. If you are willing to do a job nobody wants to do then thats a great business opportunity. I think it would be fun for someone retired..or unemployed. Plus the positive impact on your wagering !

$50 X 100 = $5,000 / month

Given the relatively small size of the pools and the limited margin of EV that can be potentially offered, what would make anyone with the ability to discover an overlooked handicapping factor (as the trip – track bias information that is discussed here) to sell it for a few thousand dollars per month?

[PICSIX]

I'd pay extra for pp's that had a hyperlink attached to all races that I could select to instantly see the replays.

[thaskalos]

I had the pleasure of working with Ron Cox on the the Northern California Track Record. We covered Bay Meadows and Golden Gate Fields. Offered trip notes, bias notes, pace and final time figures. It was if I do say so my self. State of the art for the time. We mailed weekly, there was a comment on every horse that raced the previous week. Subscribers could file into a binder and thumb back. Frankly we were good at what we did. This was prior to state wide or nation wide simulcasting. At the height we had 60 subscribers at $360 per meet.

A few years ago I thought I would try doing the same product on the southern California circuit. I advertised on this site, Calracing.com as well as a few appearances on local radio in both northern and southern California. I offered the product, which was now sent via e-mail in a pdf. Free for a good 6 weeks. I had 37 handicappers during the free period. I had very positive feedback. We caught some very subtle bias's, provided some handicapping and wagering editorials. Once again I can say I had positive comments. When It came time to charge. And I was very cost effective, I had one person subscribe.

It is possible the product was not any good. However, I seriously doubt that.

This makes perfect sense to me, Dan...because, IMO, the frivolous horseplayers outnumber the serious ones by about a 36 to 1 ratio.

[EMD4ME]

I'd pay extra for pp's that had a hyperlink attached to all races that I could select to instantly see the replays.

Formulator

[teddy]

From what I have seen trip handicapping is the one thing nobody wants to do that's why it's obviously so effective. When taken with some handicapping basics. Or you could just do it by odds and let the public handicap your races for you. Which is probably as good as anything. These horses that I have been getting our 3 to 1 shots and less and from what I've seen it's pretty deadly.

[AltonKelsey]

I could be wrong, but I think that the main reason why The Sheets and Thoroughgraph are still in business is because they have quite a few customers from the racing industry - trainers, owners, breeders. You can't sell any sort of high priced service to horseplayers. There aren't enough of them and they either can't afford it or don't want to pay a lot for handicapping information. I'm not even sure that DRF would still be publishing if it had to rely on horseplayers.

Is that the reason or is it because even with GOOD information it's so hard to beat the game for real money.

[EMD4ME]

Is that the reason or is it because even with GOOD information it's so hard to beat the game for real money.

I personally am realizing that 2 people can watch a replay and get 2 totally different versions of what happened.

I'm realizing that it takes talent to know what you're watching.

I used to think everyone saw, what I noticed and weighed it appropriately. Now I realize, just how different people see things.

I LOVE THAT.

[v j stauffer]

The more often the horseplayer plays the game...the more sure he is to realize that he is going to have to pay for someone else's product or service somewhere down the line. There are too many facets to this game and, as the game gets more and more competitive...there is a constant call for improving our game in order to stay in step with our competition. We can't do at all ourselves...because the time constraints that we face are too much of an obstacle.

Where can I possibly find the time to become as proficient at replay-watching as EMD4ME or ReplayRandall? How can I possibly construct professional-level speed and pace figures for all the different tracks that I intend to play...not to mention compiling trustworthy track bias information for the same tracks? Why shouldn't I pay for these services...if they become available to me?

Of course...the infrequent bettor isn't forced to operate under such time constraints. But this player isn't likely to profit from this game either.

It can be done and has been done by players who realize they must reduce the number of tracks they can play each day.

Personally one East and One West is the maximum workload I can handle.

It's especially tough on people who crave massive amounts of action.

16 to 24 races a day. Anything more will dilute the quality of your work.

[EMD4ME]

It can be done and has been done by players who realize they must reduce the number of tracks they can play each day.

Personally one East and One West is the maximum workload I can handle.

It's especially tough on people who crave massive amounts of action.

16 to 24 races a day. Anything more will dilute the quality of your work.


I 10000% CONCUR...

I get so tired when EMD and NYRA run at the same time.

I am almost relieved that EMD ended as I get to rest a bit.

Anything more than 1 EAST COAST AND 1 WEST COAST is way too much for me these days.

[v j stauffer]

Is there one place I can get all the equipment changes for the day without going track to track?All the changes listed in one spot?

Any of the big ADW's.

1. Bet America

2. TVG

3. Express Bet

4. Twin Spires

They all get first dibs at changes from tracks because they're bet takers.

[Parkview_Pirate]

From what I have seen trip handicapping is the one thing nobody wants to do that's why it's obviously so effective. When taken with some handicapping basics. Or you could just do it by odds and let the public handicap your races for you. Which is probably as good as anything. These horses that I have been getting our 3 to 1 shots and less and from what I've seen it's pretty deadly.

One of the challenges of trip handicapping is "quantifying" the observations, and even more so folding them into other data, making the service a difficult one to implement. I suppose there might be enough meat on the bone to be profitable from just trip 'capping, but I'd find it hard to believe 3-1 shots would get the job done.

Aren't some speed/performance figures already taking trip into account? I thought the Ragozin sheets did. FWIW, I think another lucrative area to explore from a service perspective would be the visual handicapping done in the paddock, post parade and warm ups. With texts and tweets, it'd be easier to do nowadays.

[v j stauffer]

I had the pleasure of working with Ron Cox on the the Northern California Track Record. We covered Bay Meadows and Golden Gate Fields. Offered trip notes, bias notes, pace and final time figures. It was if I do say so my self. State of the art for the time. We mailed weekly, there was a comment on every horse that raced the previous week. Subscribers could file into a binder and thumb back. Frankly we were good at what we did. This was prior to state wide or nation wide simulcasting. At the height we had 60 subscribers at $360 per meet.

A few years ago I thought I would try doing the same product on the southern California circuit. I advertised on this site, Calracing.com as well as a few appearances on local radio in both northern and southern California. I offered the product, which was now sent via e-mail in a pdf. Free for a good 6 weeks. I had 37 handicappers during the free period. I had very positive feedback. We caught some very subtle bias's, provided some handicapping and wagering editorials. Once again I can say I had positive comments. When It came time to charge. And I was very cost effective, I had one person subscribe.

It is possible the product was not any good. However, I seriously doubt that.

Your product was VERY good.

Unfortunately Southern Cal already had several services doing equally good work that had cornered the market so to speak.

Coupled with the fact those services are being shared by many with only 1 paying customer you were up against unbeatable numbers.

Tough to find a circuit that has enough players that doesn't also have a glut of services.

I would think maybe Australia might be a market. Lot's of work but clearly the betting numbers there continue to rise. And the pools can certainly handle the increase in informed opinions.

[v j stauffer]

One of the challenges of trip handicapping is "quantifying" the observations, and even more so folding them into other data, making the service a difficult one to implement. I suppose there might be enough meat on the bone to be profitable from just trip 'capping, but I'd find it hard to believe 3-1 shots would get the job done.

Aren't some speed/performance figures already taking trip into account? I thought the Ragozin sheets did. FWIW, I think another lucrative area to explore from a service perspective would be the visual handicapping done in the paddock, post parade and warm ups. With texts and tweets, it'd be easier to do nowadays.

Both TG and RAG have spotters/ground men that point out trouble. However it's NEVER integrated into the final number. Both correctly believe it incumbent on each player to quantify the incidents for themselves and then self adjust as they see fit.

[EMD4ME]

Both TG and RAG have spotters/ground men that point out trouble. However it's NEVER integrated into the final number. Both correctly believe it incumbent on each player to quantify the incidents for themselves and then self adjust as they see fit.

I realized long ago, this is a game where you need to do the WORK to win. Anyone looking for a shortcut is doomed OR will not win as much as the one who puts in the work.

That simple.

[v j stauffer]

I'd pay extra for pp's that had a hyperlink attached to all races that I could select to instantly see the replays.

FORMULATOR

In 2016 IMO this product is a mandatory tool to have any chance at winning. Period.

[EMD4ME]

FORMULATOR

In 2016 IMO this product is a mandatory tool to have any chance at winning. Period.

I asked for 2 lines of notes for each running line. Lonnie tried to help but we hit a wall.

I hate using so many shortcuts in my notes.

For example: OC (Out clean), H (hustled), 3W (3 wide), clw (changled leads well), g out VG (galloped out very good).

It's very annoying to cut down so much. They should cater to certain player's wishes.

[teddy]

Did anybody see anything in the last race at Belmont. You talk about a horse that will be over bet next time

[cj]

:bang: Did anybody see anything in the last race at Belmont. You talk about a horse that will be over vet next time

The old "if you missed the wedding, don't go the funeral" horse racing logic!

[teddy]

I bet they can't wait to put him on trips and traps

[whodoyoulike]

Is there one place I can get all the equipment changes for the day without going track to track?All the changes listed in one spot?

Where do you get equipment changes?

Drf and equibase under Entries show scratches and jockey changes. But, you have to view each track listed by date.

If you're referring to 1st time gelded or blinkers on/off other than the pp's for the individual race what source(s) are you using?

[whodoyoulike]

Did anybody see anything in the last race at Belmont. You talk about a horse that will be over bet next time

I just saw the replay of the 9th looking at Moonshine Cate running because the owner posts on here. And, someone else started a thread about it.

Your ?? sounds very mysterious because there was I think a field of 12.

Is that the race and which one are you thinking about?

[teddy]

Yeah the favorite was blocked thru the entire stretch almost and of course came with a big run. Classic overbet horse next time.

[the little guy]

I bet they can't wait to put him on trips and traps


I will be returning to Trips&Traps very soon...and I would NEVER show that horse. Completely uninteresting.

[mountainman]

FORMULATOR

In 2016 IMO this product is a mandatory tool to have any chance at winning. Period.

Amen, brother..

[mountainman]

I asked for 2 lines of notes for each running line. Lonnie tried to help but we hit a wall.

I hate using so many shortcuts in my notes.

For example: OC (Out clean), H (hustled), 3W (3 wide), clw (changled leads well), g out VG (galloped out very good).

It's very annoying to cut down so much. They should cater to certain player's wishes.

Sounds familiar. I use my own quirky shorthand and still need more space.
But my notes have two purposes, first off, to augment the handicapping process, and also to record interesting or novel things for the show.

Also, I'd love the option to color code my notes.

Paging Wayne........

[no breathalyzer]

FORMULATOR

In 2016 IMO this product is a mandatory tool to have any chance at winning. Period.

I don't use it.. sounds like i should catch up with the times.. i wouldn't even know how to use it.. Is it really worth my time?

[EMD4ME]

FORMULATOR

In 2016 IMO this product is a mandatory tool to have any chance at winning. Period.

I don't use it.. sounds like i should catch up with the times.. i wouldn't even know how to use it.. Is it really worth my time?

If you took my formulator away, I quit horseracing immediately.

I've been an unlimited user since 07. Greatest simple thing ever created.

[EMD4ME]

Sounds familiar. I use my own quirky shorthand and still need more space.
But my notes have two purposes, first off, to augment the handicapping process, and also to record interesting or novel things for the show.

Also, I'd love the option to color code my notes.

Paging Wayne........

:ThmbUp:

Common class! Make it happen!!!

[classhandicapper]

I asked for 2 lines of notes for each running line. Lonnie tried to help but we hit a wall.

I hate using so many shortcuts in my notes.

For example: OC (Out clean), H (hustled), 3W (3 wide), clw (changled leads well), g out VG (galloped out very good).

It's very annoying to cut down so much. They should cater to certain player's wishes.

Eventually, Formulator is going to be upgraded technology wise. When that happens, it's more likely there will be resources available for changes like that.

[rsetup]

I will be returning to Trips&Traps very soon...and I would NEVER show that horse. Completely uninteresting.The voice of reason, finally

[rsetup]

FORMULATOR

In 2016 IMO this product is a mandatory tool to have any chance at winning. Period.Doubtful.

[Tom]

Not doubtful.
Flat out wrong.

[EMD4ME]

Doubtful.


sVcn4lznUOs

[rsetup]

You guys are like the junkies who want all their friends and family members to be junkies as well. No thanks. I have the skills to do anything I want with data.

[no breathalyzer]

Sounds familiar. I use my own quirky shorthand and still need more space.
But my notes have two purposes, first off, to augment the handicapping process, and also to record interesting or novel things for the show.

Also, I'd love the option to color code my notes.

Paging Wayne........

Whats so great about it if you can't even color code your notes?... This is a serious question here.. i use the rainbow of color highlighters in my old fashion hardback notebook for my notes.. it does the job well.

[EMD4ME]

You guys are like the junkies who want all their friends and family members to be junkies as well. No thanks. I have the skills to do anything I want with data.

Not true. I want you to NOT use it. Was being nice in telling it like it is.

[EMD4ME]

Whats so great about it if you can't even color code your notes?... This is a serious question here.. i use the rainbow of color highlighters in my old fashion hardback notebook for my notes.. it does the job well.

I used to do it all on paper. It's a whole lot easier to simply remind you of your notes.

If you haven't tried it, you just won't know what your missing until you do.

I don't care for color coded. I simply CAP what I want to stick out.

[ultracapper]

Always better to purchase facts rather than opinions.

[Nitro]

FORMULATOR

In 2016 IMO this product is a mandatory tool to have any chance at winning. Period.
Vic I can only assume your comment was referring to those who rely on PP data to justify their subjective handicapping approaches. As far as I’m concerned the only tool that produces consistent winning results is a thorough analysis of the tote board activities. I believe that it not only can provide objective information about live horses with solid intentions of winning (or at least trying), it automatically points to the odds value of those entries. It’s a potent combination, especially when you’re focusing on the vertical exotics.

I also avoid wasting my time watching race re-runs. When betting serious money, my preference is to judge the physicality of the entries on race day. I would rather have some idea of what the current horse's condition might be and how that might affect today’s performance.

[no breathalyzer]

Vic I can only assume your comment was referring to those who rely on PP data to justify their subjective handicapping approaches. As far as I’m concerned the only tool that produces consistent winning results is a thorough analysis of the tote board activities. I believe that it not only can provide objective information about live horses with solid intentions of winning (or at least trying), it automatically points to the odds value of those entries. It’s a potent combination, especially when you’re focusing on the vertical exotics.

I also avoid wasting my time watching race re-runs. When betting serious money, my preference is to judge the physicality of the entries on race day. I would rather have some idea of what the current horse's condition might be and how that might affect today’s performance.


why not just use all three tools?

[Nitro]

why not just use all three tools?
That’s an EXCELLENT question! And one that I've responded to with many of my local friends who also play.

Believe it or not I when I first started including the tote analysis in my handicapping arsenal, I found that more often then not in races where there was a better potential value in the out come that the tote analysis provided much better results. So rather than second guessing myself in those situations with subjective conjecture conflicting with objective reality, I decided to give up traditional handicapping entirely. It was tough in the beginning because I realized that my ego had become somewhat deflated. That’s because I was no longer making decisions based on my interpretations of performance data. That conflict soon evaporated when the profits started improving dramatically. I believe another positive aspect in my game created by this change resulted in my ability to focus much more on the betting side of the game. :ThmbUp:

For example of the tote analysis here's today’s 9th Race @ Belmont (post 2 & 3):
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=133740

[EMD4ME]

That’s an EXCELLENT question! And one that I've responded to with many of my local friends who also play.

Believe it or not I when I first started including the tote analysis in my handicapping arsenal, I found that more often then not in races where there was a better potential value in the out come that the tote analysis provided much better results. So rather than second guessing myself in those situations with subjective conjecture conflicting with objective reality, I decided to give up traditional handicapping entirely. It was tough in the beginning because I realized that my ego had become somewhat deflated. That’s because I was no longer making decisions based on my interpretations of performance data. That conflict soon evaporated when the profits started improving dramatically. I believe another positive aspect in my game created by this change resulted in my ability to focus much more on the betting side of the game. :ThmbUp:

For example of the tote analysis here's today’s 9th Race @ Belmont (post 2 & 3):
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=133740

How is that some sort of tout? You have 6 horses used in the bet???

You picked two horses on top, 1 of them paid $4.80.

The triple paid $82 for a deuce. According to you, that's at least a $48 wager using your top choices on top with the remaining 4 behind em. That's a loss of 7 bucks.

Last I checked, you also take credit when the underneathers win as you say you boxed the wager :bang:

I can tout winners all day if I did a:

1-3/ 5-6-7 BOX in a ten horse field.

COLD means I like the 3 with the 2 2nd, with the 7 3rd, with the 8 4th. Or at least 3-278 behind in tri's sup's.

Not picking a fight but you have to be kidding....touting this as some sort of indication of the board being your messiah.

[Nitro]

How is that some sort of tout? You have 6 horses used in the bet???

You picked two horses on top, 1 of them paid $4.80.

The triple paid $82 for a deuce. According to you, that's at least a $48 wager using your top choices on top with the remaining 4 behind em. That's a loss of 7 bucks.

Last I checked, you also take credit when the underneathers win as you say you boxed the wager :bang:

I can tout winners all day if I did a:

1-3/ 5-6-7 BOX in a ten horse field.

COLD means I like the 3 with the 2 2nd, with the 7 3rd, with the 8 4th. Or at least 3-278 behind in tri's sup's.

Not picking a fight but you have to be kidding....touting this as some sort of indication of the board being your messiah.First all I think you ought to learn how to count. There were only 5 selections posted not 6. Second of all you (like some others on this forum) fail miserably when trying to comprehend the basic effectiveness of Key entries with others.

I’m impressed that you even bother to CHECK my selections and their potential results. But perhaps your reading comprehension is as good as your math.

As I’ve stated many times over (In the Selection forum):
My top 2 selections are my Keys. They can be played individually or Dutched if the value is there. I will also use them as Keys in Exactas, Tri’s and Supers. Keying entries in exotics means that they have to at least be in the money with the other picks. I may not even be playing a race if it doesn’t offer any value.
Yes, contrary to the trend around here I’ll post my results too; Win or Lose
I know it might be difficult for some to understand, but the winning results I post are the potential returns for those types of bets had they been made. I don’t make every bet and I certainly don’t play every race.

And no I’m not kidding, but please continue touting the value of watching all those race re-runs. I certainly enjoy reading about how well everyone is doing while using this method.

BTW I noticed that your signature includes a quote from Pittsburg Phil. That’s great, but I suggest that you re-read his Axioms in their entirety.

[rsetup]

He had aome real fuzzy analysis of his picks at HKG the other day. Seems like there's always a way his picks make money. Even when they don't run. I tired of his nonsense and iggied him. Just so much absurdness one can take. Do me a favor, don't quote his nonsense.

[teddy]

trakus kicks but ! Had two $16.00 and a $50 this week.

[Nitro]

He had aome real fuzzy analysis of his picks at HKG the other day. Seems like there's always a way his picks make money. Even when they don't run. I tired of his nonsense and iggied him. Just so much absurdness one can take. Do me a favor, don't quote his nonsense.I’m not sure which of my last 3 HK threads you’re referring to. In any case, I guess it’s difficult for you to comprehend how Dutching 3 entries to Win in large fields can produce a consistent profit. That’s too bad because it’s a fairly simple concept that very often offers substantial rewards. It’s something that I’ve recently been sharing in the Selection forum instead of posting live selections for HK.

I also find it rather amusing that those who spend so much time BSing about the game never support their convictions by posting selections at all. (It's not very difficult to figure out why.) I realize that many can talk a good game and knock how others might play, but when it comes to actually profiting their lost (in more ways than one!)

[JJMartin]

Here is an idea:
Take the top 4 horses (BPPR or PSR) in any Allowance and up race (no maiden, no claiming). Then trip analyze just those 4 horses. If you can, add some physicality analysis. Do both with some rating system of your choice, just keep it consistent. The horse with the best rating of the top 4 would be the choice. The parameters above will reduce the amount of work required considerably.

[speculus]

It's not that easy to get 100 gamblers to pay $50 a month.

Not really.

I charge equivalent of US $1,000 for three months (for one racetrack), only to give them a chance to replicate by betting on their own scale, and I maintain a rather long wait list.:cool:

But then you have to consistently make decent amount of money betting so that they do too, by simply following you blindly.

Of course, this revenue model will work only until I come across a losing season.

[NorCalGreg]

Not really.

I charge equivalent of US $1,000 for three months (for one racetrack), only to give them a chance to replicate by betting on their own scale, and I maintain a rather long wait list.:cool:

But then you have to consistently make decent amount of money betting so that they do too, by simply following you blindly.

Of course, this revenue model will work only until I come across a losing season.

I like your website :)

[pandy]

Not really.

I charge equivalent of US $1,000 for three months (for one racetrack), only to give them a chance to replicate by betting on their own scale, and I maintain a rather long wait list.:cool:

But then you have to consistently make decent amount of money betting so that they do too, by simply following you blindly.

Of course, this revenue model will work only until I come across a losing season.


Hi Prakash. I'm talking about in this country. Even in this country, handicappers or clockers selling information on the west coast have many more customers than their counterparts on the east coast. Markets are different.

You should tell us a little about the racing there. How is it different from the states?

[traynor]

Not really.

I charge equivalent of US $1,000 for three months (for one racetrack), only to give them a chance to replicate by betting on their own scale, and I maintain a rather long wait list.:cool:

But then you have to consistently make decent amount of money betting so that they do too, by simply following you blindly.

Of course, this revenue model will work only until I come across a losing season.

That is the key point that most publishing "information" in North America seem to miss--information that is not profitable is worthless to most bettors. In marketing, it is called "selling an empty box."

If your product or service generates consistent profit, customers (at almost any fee) are easy to find. It is only those marketing "non-profit" output that find customers reluctant to buy.

[speculus]

Hi Prakash. I'm talking about in this country. Even in this country, handicappers or clockers selling information on the west coast have many more customers than their counterparts on the east coast. Markets are different.

You should tell us a little about the racing there. How is it different from the states?

I think the following points stand out when contrasting your racing with ours:

1. The most important difference is ALL our racetracks are TURF racetracks. There are only 9 racetracks in India. Three of them, the ones at Pune, Hyderabad and Kolkata also have specially prepared and maintained monsoon strips, but they are TURF too.

2. We have a dual system: Tote as well as bookmakers. Most big players bet with bookmakers as they commit to a fixed price (odds) prevailing at the time of placing the bet, irrespective of the amount of bet.

3. The data, especially related to the finishing time, is absolutely accurate. A couple of race clubs offer accurate timings up to 1/1000th of a second for ALL finishers (though personally I prefer to limit my timing data only to 1/100th of a second).

4. English is not our first language, so you may find our race callers' diction (and my own too when I record the "audio" analysis for each race) outright funny.:D

5. At Mumbai and Pune (my home turf), my own performance for the last 9 straight racing seasons has been outstanding (strike rate hovering between 42 & 50%).

6. Here are links to some of our more popular racetracks:

Mumbai/Pune: www.RWITC.com
Bangalore: www.BangaloreRaces.com
Mysore: www.MysoreRaceClub.com
Hyderabad: www.Hydraces.com
Kolkata: www.RCTConline.com

[speculus]

I like your website :)

Thanks. :)

I think I am blessed with a very good TEAM. They look after almost everything else so that I can focus exclusively on handicapping research.

[speculus]

That is the key point that most publishing "information" in North America seem to miss--information that is not profitable is worthless to most bettors. In marketing, it is called "selling an empty box."

If your product or service generates consistent profit, customers (at almost any fee) are easy to find. It is only those marketing "non-profit" output that find customers reluctant to buy.

I would beg to differ.

I think there are just too many excellent handicappers on this forum--some of them mighty gifted--I can say that with confidence because I have read their stuff and interacted with some of them in the past. So it may be wrong to run them down just because they wish to showcase their stuff and sell it to others who may value it.

Actually, there is not much to choose between two top handicappers after they cross a particular level of expertise. Yes, there is one final hurdle to cross before one "knows" one has finally arrived into the land of "consistent, sizable, and near-certain profits" as I like to call it.

There is that moment of "revelation" which "finds" you, if you get what I mean, and then there is no looking back. The revelation took years to find me, but no complaints.:)

[pandy]

Thanks. :)

I think I am blessed with a very good TEAM. They look after almost everything else so that I can focus exclusively on handicapping research.


When you say "strike rate," am I correct in assuming that you do not mean, Win Percentage? Is your strike rate based on a combination, such as an exacta box? Or a combo bet win and place? If it's win percentage, to generate a 48% ROI profit on 43% with win bets only, that's really tough to do when betting thoroughbreds. Normally profit is higher with a lower win percentage.

[speculus]

When you say "strike rate," am I correct in assuming that you do not mean, Win Percentage?

Yes, strike rate means Win Percentage.

Is your strike rate based on a combination, such as an exacta box?

More than 95 percent of my bets are on the nose of the horse: only WIN.

The balance 5 percent may be SHOW bets (what you call SHOW here, we call PLACE there, a horse finishing in 1-2-3 in a field of 8 or more horses). These are mostly horses that offer at least 5-to-2 ($7.00 on a $2 bet).

If it's win percentage, to generate a 48% ROI profit on 43% with win bets only, that's really tough to do when betting thoroughbreds. Normally profit is higher with a lower win percentage.

There were a number of pricey horses among the winners, so the average odds on winners were slightly better in that sample. We use the same formula as everyone does to work that out:

%Profit = (WP * AoW) - (1 - WP)

WP = win percentage
AoW = average odds on winners

[pandy]

Yes, strike rate means Win Percentage.



More than 95 percent of my bets are on the nose of the horse: only WIN.

The balance 5 percent may be SHOW bets (what you call SHOW here, we call PLACE there, a horse finishing in 1-2-3 in a field of 8 or more horses). These are mostly horses that offer at least 5-to-2 ($7.00 on a $2 bet).



There were a number of pricey horses among the winners, so the average odds on winners were slightly better in that sample. We use the same formula as everyone does to work that out:

%Profit = (WP * AoW) - (1 - WP)

WP = win percentage
AoW = average odds on winners

That's awesome. I think the pp info there is similar to Europe, no fractions or pace figures. That would be an advantage for a sharp handicapper or team of handicappers who take the time to compile good data - perhaps hand time segments of the races, create variants, and do detailed trip analysis.

Congratulations on your success.

[speculus]

That's awesome. I think the pp info there is similar to Europe, no fractions or pace figures. That would be an advantage for a sharp handicapper or team of handicappers who take the time to compile good data - perhaps hand time segments of the races, create variants, and do detailed trip analysis.

Congratulations on your success.

Thanks, Pandy.

The pp's have fractional times for each race for every furlong (check out http://bolrace.com/previous/display.aspx ), but I sometimes need the timings for "different" points of call than supplied by them, so in such cases I need to work out my own stuff for trip handicapping which, incidentally, I call "video handicapping".

Btw, Pandy, if you remember I had ordered a book from you sometime back, and the delivery was delayed due to problems at the post office in my town--you then sent me the pdf. I am unable locate it. If you don't mind, can you send it again?

I wish to read most of the recently published decent handicapping books to understand the current literature on the subject before I decide to write my own book. Of course, I don't mind paying once again. Thanks in advance.

[pandy]

Check your private messages, I sent you a message.

[traynor]

I would beg to differ.

I think there are just too many excellent handicappers on this forum--some of them mighty gifted--I can say that with confidence because I have read their stuff and interacted with some of them in the past. So it may be wrong to run them down just because they wish to showcase their stuff and sell it to others who may value it.

Actually, there is not much to choose between two top handicappers after they cross a particular level of expertise. Yes, there is one final hurdle to cross before one "knows" one has finally arrived into the land of "consistent, sizable, and near-certain profits" as I like to call it.

There is that moment of "revelation" which "finds" you, if you get what I mean, and then there is no looking back. The revelation took years to find me, but no complaints.:)

I was referring specifically to "race selection information"--not generic or modified past performance data. If you know of someone on this forum who is marketing a product or service that one can "bet blindly" and gain a positive ROI over time, please give them a boost with a link or reference.

[traynor]

I want to make clear that I am NOT referring to anyone on this forum when I referred to "selling an empty box." I was referring specifically to "subscription selection services," apparently similar in format to the poster I responded to (but with much less success in their selections).

I can't be the only person on this forum on the chump list to get periodic "can't lose" offers from selection sellers. Or maybe I am. In any event, no insult intended to anyone on this forum, in any way. I should have been more specific in my comments. Apologies if anyone felt slighted.

[FakeNameChanged]

This makes perfect sense to me, Dan...because, IMO, the frivolous horseplayers outnumber the serious ones by about a 36 to 1 ratio.
I'm late to this conversation, but that sounds about right in the wheelhouse for what mail orders guys used to get. 2 to 4 out of 100 would respond and buy, 1 out of 36 is a little under 3% return. I don't doubt it was a good product.

[whodoyoulike]

... I also avoid wasting my time watching race re-runs. When betting serious money, my preference is to judge the physicality of the entries on race day. I would rather have some idea of what the current horse's condition might be and how that might affect today’s performance.

I really wish I knew how you figured this part out because I've tried but am inconsistent with results. Asking what you look for on a handicapping forum would be unfair to you, IMO.

So how about at least just these two?

Question :1: what do you do when there are maybe 2 or 3 which appear ready to run but since you don't favor considering race re-plays or reviewing pp's, how do you know which one or even if any can get the distance?

Question :2: you don't seem to be considering a horse's running style or do you, and if so, how?

Not watching re-plays is a personal preference but I like to use anything which can help me figure this stuff out.

[ultracapper]

$50 X 100 = $5,000 / month

Given the relatively small size of the pools and the limited margin of EV that can be potentially offered, what would make anyone with the ability to discover an overlooked handicapping factor (as the trip – track bias information that is discussed here) to sell it for a few thousand dollars per month?

No kidding. You can make that on just one good find.

[EMD4ME]

1) one should never charge that little as the one you sell it to can resell the info. Charge heavy if you're going to sell blood sweat and tears info. Unless you can protect your product or info

2) I gave 1 person access to my work and I regret it already. $600 was not enough. Deal rescinded. (There was a mutual agreement for either party to cancel at anytime).

[Nitro]

I really wish I knew how you figured this part out because I've tried but am inconsistent with results. Asking what you look for on a handicapping forum would be unfair to you, IMO.

So how about at least just these two?

Question :1: what do you do when there are maybe 2 or 3 which appear ready to run but since you don't favor considering race re-plays or reviewing pp's, how do you know which one or even if any can get the distance?

Question :2: you don't seem to be considering a horse's running style or do you, and if so, how?

Not watching re-plays is a personal preference but I like to use anything which can help me figure this stuff out.There have been many threads on physicality handicapping on PA. Here are just a few:
(You can also do an Advanced Search on PA by entering Physicality Handicapping)
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39682&highlight=Physicality+handicapping
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10293&highlight=Physicality+handicapping
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59475

The "guru" of writers on physicality is Joe Takach.

[cutchemist42]

Stumbled upon this old thread but I've kinda come to the thought that very good trip handicapping cant be done with simply replays.l feel this way for how varied the quality of replays are. As an example, NYRA is very good about showing the full loading but cuts off the gallop out. Contrast that with the amazing gallop out the HKJC provides.

So basically I think full trip/visual handicapping involves the post-parade to loading to race to gallop-out. Just replays is maybe not sufficient for the whole story.

I'm probably stating the obvious here.