Mountaineer Park Race 6 9/21/16

[Track Phantom]

Post time favorite was even money during the entire running of the race. She failed to break from the gate and stood in there for 6-8 seconds without moving losing at least 30 lengths.

After the race, odds on her went up to 8-5. I'm sure it's just a coincidence (sarcasm).

I would love to see a print out of every placed bet and every withdrawn bet leading up to and after the start of the race.

For the record, I bet the race and bet AGAINST the favorite and won money, so this isn't sour grapes. I'm just disgusted with the lack of any concern, oversight, policing, transparency or whatever else you want to call it.

[Inner Dirt]

Hard to see how that is even the weakest evidence of funny business. Why don't you explain the rest of your conspiracy theory? I doubt it makes any sense to anyone who didn't think we faked the moon landing.

[Track Phantom]

Hard to see how that is even the weakest evidence of funny business. Why don't you explain the rest of your conspiracy theory? I doubt it makes any sense to anyone who didn't think we faked the moon landing.
What else is there to explain? The post time favorite nearly doubled in odds after the race was over (and after it stood in the gate). Find me another post time favorite at Mountaineer in the last week that doubled in odds in the final click.

[Inner Dirt]

You did not explain your theory. As in "Trainer John Doe must have trained his horse to stay in the gate, then bet $25,000 on the 6-5 shot to win." I just looked at the chart it appears it was a maiden first timer who refused to break, not exactly a rare occurrence. Also with the winner going off at 6-5 it isn't unusual for one of two closely matched horses to get pounded at the end. If someone is pulling funny business they aren't going to do something so obvious.

[AltonKelsey]

Sorry, but you have a much better chance proving the Apollo mission was a hoax.

No bets were cancelled.

6/5 to 8/5 is not a doubling of odds. It said 1-1 on the tote but was probably more like 1.15 not 1.00

Nothing funny at all about the betting in the race, which I watched and have records for.

I look at MNR often enough, and there is very little suspicious in the betting other than LARGE SUMS being bet on ridiculous horses that lose. Not the other way around.
http://thebrightestman.wikispaces.com/file/view/moon-landing-hoax.jpg/75661347/441x509/moon-landing-hoax.jpg

[cj]

Sorry, but you have a much better chance proving the Apollo mission was a hoax.

No bets were cancelled.

6/5 to 8/5 is not a doubling of odds. It said 1-1 on the tote but was probably more like 1.15 not 1.00

Nothing funny at all about the betting in the race, which I watched and have records for.

I look at MNR often enough, and there is very little suspicious in the betting other than LARGE SUMS being bet on ridiculous horses that lose. Not the other way around.


It has been documented here on at least a few occasions where large bets were definitely canceled on races at Mountaineer.

[Track Phantom]

Let me clarify something. I actually think it is most likely a coincidence and not pool manipulation. But I don't think anyone can totally rule out something nefarious. You see 98 straight 8-5 shots during the running of the race drop to even money after they draw off by 5 that when you see an even money shot get stuck in the gate and jump up to 8-5 30 seconds later you get suspicious.

Simple way to remove any doubt....stop betting 30 seconds to post. It's absolutely ridiculous that all betting doesn't stop prior to the horses loading. And don't give me the horsesh*t that bettors would be disgruntled. Like everything else, we adapt.

[ReplayRandall]

Let me clarify something. I actually think it is most likely a coincidence and not pool manipulation. But I don't think anyone can totally rule out something nefarious. You see 98 straight 8-5 shots during the running of the race drop to even money after they draw off by 5 that when you see an even money shot get stuck in the gate and jump up to 8-5 30 seconds later you get suspicious.

Simple way to remove any doubt....stop betting 30 seconds to post. It's absolutely ridiculous that all betting doesn't stop prior to the horses loading. And don't give me the horsesh*t that bettors would be disgruntled. Like everything else, we adapt.

I agree, but unfortunately if my horse breaks thru the gate prematurely, I can't go cancel my bet if betting has been closed....Other than that, it seems like a no-brainer to implement this.

[Garyinseattle]

It has been documented here on at least a few occasions where large bets were definitely canceled on races at Mountaineer.


About 10-15 yrs ago didn't some tracks try shutting the betting pools with 2 MTP to kind of "lock in" the final odds before the race went off ? I think Woodbine was one. Seems like a great idea to keep after the start bets/cancellations from happening. I remember they were doing this shutting the pools at 2 MTP....then all of a sudden it quietly stopped.

[chenoa]

About 10-15 yrs ago didn't some tracks try shutting the betting pools with 2 MTP to kind of "lock in" the final odds before the race went off ? I think Woodbine was one. Seems like a great idea to keep after the start bets/cancellations from happening. I remember they were doing this shutting the pools at 2 MTP....then all of a sudden it quietly stopped.

Fractious horse at the gate not scratched by the stewards or you see something washed out bad at post time, you know your money's lost before the gates open, handles would crash.

[AltonKelsey]

It has been documented here on at least a few occasions where large bets were definitely canceled on races at Mountaineer.

Not saying it never happens. But the op was suggesting someone cancelled after the gates opened. Why else would they cancel here?

Even though these pool antics are talked about as if they happen every day and twice on Sunday, I rarely if ever see anything that could be deemed suspicious.

Told you what I see EVERY day. Good money on BAD horses. And plenty of it. But we only hear these reports of all knowing late plunges on galloping winners. :D

[Track Phantom]

Fractious horse at the gate not scratched by the stewards or you see something washed out bad at post time, you know your money's lost before the gates open,handles would crash.
Absurd.

Handle would not crash over this. Horseplayers frustrated? Sure. But the kind of thick skin horseplayers have to grow to play this game fortify's them for this inconvenience.

The reason why the experiment to lock betting as the horses started to load ended wasn't because horseplayers couldn't cancel a bet if a runner acted up. (I'll put my tinfoil hat on for this)...I think the reason could be that past posting, in our current age of technology, is easier than we might believe. To stop betting and see odds change later would open the kimono to the public. The unintended consequence would be to expose how unsecure the tote system is in this country. Before anyone jumps down my throat on this, I am not making this my position, but a possible position none the less.

If I could make a change, I would have a two minute clock tick down on the screen. I would stop betting at the 2:10 mark (allowing for video lag). I think players would adapt. I, for one, would gladly and enthusiastically give up my right to cancel a bet on a fractious horse for the knowledge that the odds I see prior to the race are the odds I see after the race.

[v j stauffer]

Players WILL in fact adapt to just about anything.

The reason closing pools before the bell never gained any traction is the tracks themselves found out overall handle decreased quite a bit.

Remember win pools are just a small part of the entire equation.

Closing when they get to the gate effected Pick 4's 3's Tri's, Supers.

Anything that causes handle to go down is never going to last.

Period.

[lamboguy]

in the 90's i gave up vegas and went and played the break once simulcasting took hold, so i know this end of the game pretty well, at least from back then.

today simulcast racing is show on about a 10 second delay, most pools are closed by then or if they are open its not for a second or 2. this will never give you time to make the right call even if an open pool did exist. the cancel part of the equation may be another 3 or 4 seconds, maybe that gives someone more time. its pretty unlikely that anyone is calling the break at throroughbred tracks with time delay's. there could be someone somewhere that does have access that no one else has to the live simulcast feed and they could be doing damage to the pools. if such a place does exist i don't know where it is. i would love to find out so that i could go to the place and start firing away.

the thing that i know exist are conditional wagering and batch bettors that can adjust odds at the last moment. so if there are any inefficiencies based on their models the odds will change. sometimes i try to base my strategy on figuring out where the odds are moving to. example: if my odds on a horse are 7/5 and see the horse 4/5 in the gate i might bet on it knowing i am getting a rise in price once the race starts. same thing in the reverse, if it looks like i am getting a good deal i try to stay away from the bet.

horse race betting is all about getting the right price for your bet. you can with patience over come the stiff odds of winning if you have good models and solid money management. the combination of those things are very tough to do, the game makes you weak especially around 10:00 p.m. after you have battled the whole day.

[bello]

I looked at the race a bit differently, but one of two things happened.Either big money came off of the 6 or money big money went onto the 2 late. The 2 was an overlay even at 6-5 but when he was 2-1 he was a ridiculous overlay.

Either scenario above becomes problematic if the betting did not lock immediately when the gate sprung. Though I cannot prove anything, my feeling is the betting was open after the gate sprung.Those of us who play harness racing know this phenomenon as miraculously after a horse leaves the gate hard the odds will sometimes drop. Seems the biggest culprit comes from the Red Mile in Lexington.

[no breathalyzer]

shutting the betting pools with 2 MTP to kind of "lock in" the final odds before the race went off is a horrible idea .. i make a ton of bets just as the first horse is loading while betting at home. I cant be the only one that does this

[cj]

shutting the betting pools with 2 MTP to kind of "lock in" the final odds before the race went off is a horrible idea .. i make a ton of bets just as the first horse is loading while betting at home. I cant be the only one that does this

So now you have to make your bet a little earlier. You'd adapt. I do think 2 MTP is too much. As the first horse starts to load is fine.

[cj]

Players WILL in fact adapt to just about anything.

The reason closing pools before the bell never gained any traction is the tracks themselves found out overall handle decreased quite a bit.

Remember win pools are just a small part of the entire equation.

Closing when they get to the gate effected Pick 4's 3's Tri's, Supers.

Anything that causes handle to go down is never going to last.

Period.

Of course handle went down. They never gave people time to adapt.

[lamboguy]

I looked at the race a bit differently, but one of two things happened.Either big money came off of the 6 or money big money went onto the 2 late. The 2 was an overlay even at 6-5 but when he was 2-1 he was a ridiculous overlay.

Either scenario above becomes problematic if the betting did not lock immediately when the gate sprung. Though I cannot prove anything, my feeling is the betting was open after the gate sprung.Those of us who play harness racing know this phenomenon as miraculously after a horse leaves the gate hard the odds will sometimes drop. Seems the biggest culprit comes from the Red Mile in Lexington.The Red Mile don't take thoroughbred action if memory has it correct otherwise you know they would be pumping money in and out of pools all the time.

[bello]

The Red Mile don't take thoroughbred action if memory has it correct otherwise you know they would be pumping money in and out of pools all the time.
They recently added thoroughbreds.