Saratoga Numbers

[alhattab]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/214805/nyra-reports-steady-saratoga-meet-numbers?source=rss

These numbers are incredible in my view in light of the 2015 comparable, and a reflection of an outstanding meet and product. I bet many of the Saratoga cards this year- more than I ever have- and really enjoyed it so much more than any other product out there.

[thespaah]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/214805/nyra-reports-steady-saratoga-meet-numberssource=rss

These numbers are incredible in my view in light of the 2015 comparable, and a reflection of an outstanding meet and product. I bet many of the Saratoga cards this year- more than I ever have- and really enjoyed it so much more than any other product out there.
Note that the handle from Europe has not yet been factored into the total.

[pandy]

It was great racing and for some reason, even though the fields were competitive, it didn't seem impossible to handicap this year. My top pick showed a small flat bet profit for the meet (not counting the steeplechase races). But that's Saratoga. Next year it could be back to bizarre longshots winning. I've had weeks at the Spa where I thought I forgot how to handicap. But this year it all made sense.

[Redboard]

Looking good! I guess that extra nickel has helped. :)

Funny how back in the 50s, the NY legislature had to pass a rule mandating a certain amount of racing days at the SPA, for fear that the meet would shrink.

That was when Belmont/Aqueduct was packing them in. Obviously, you could get more customers at those tracks being closer to the larger populations.

How times have changed.

Long live the SPA!

[BMustang]

Note that the handle from Europe has not yet been factored into the total.

Was there wagering on Saratoga races in Europe??? Obviously from this statement there was. Is this commonplace for Euros to bet on American racing, where we are five or more hours behind them?

I was in Ireland a year ago and don't remember seeing any American racing being shown or on their scratch boards.

[SuperPickle]

Saratoga averaged $16 million a day. Del Mar $12 million. Least anyone still think they're comparable meets.

[Jeff P]

I'm preparing a spreadsheet that I plan on presenting to the CHRB later this year.

These are preliminary numbers but...

In WPS pools where both tracks have approximate level takeout rates:

I have DEL MAR handling about 75% as much as SARATOGA.

But in EXACTA pools where DEL MAR has a 22.68% takeout rate and SARATOGA has an 18.50% takeout rate:

I have DEL MAR handling just 47% as much as SARATOGA.

In my opinion that number is staggering - and not in a good way.

A simple revenue calc suggests that having an exacta takeout that is out of line vs. the rest of the industry cost Del Mar about $12,500.00 in lost revenue per exacta pool this summer.

Multiply that times the number of exacta pools over the course of the 2016 Del Mar meet and they cost themselves several million in lost purse money (opportunity cost.)





-jp

.

[SuperPickle]

I'm preparing a spreadsheet that I plan on presenting to the CHRB later this year.

These are preliminary numbers but...

In WPS pools where both tracks have approximate level takeout rates:

I have DEL MAR handling about 75% as much as SARATOGA.

But in EXACTA pools where DEL MAR has a 22.68% takeout rate and SARATOGA has an 18.50% takeout rate:

I have DEL MAR handling just 47% as much as SARATOGA.

In my opinion that number is staggering - and not in a good way.

A simple revenue calc suggests that having an exacta takeout that is out of line vs. the rest of the industry cost Del Mar about $12,500.00 in lost revenue per exacta pool this summer.

Multiply that times the number of exacta pools over the course of the 2016 Del Mar meet and they cost themselves several million in lost purse money (opportunity cost.)





-jp

.


You're 100% right and you'd be better off screaming it on a street corner versus presenting to the CHRB.

Feel free to throw in some of the Monmouth data that shows exchange wagering hasn't canabalized the other pools.

[thespaah]

Was there wagering on Saratoga races in Europe??? Obviously from this statement there was. Is this commonplace for Euros to bet on American racing, where we are five or more hours behind them?

I was in Ireland a year ago and don't remember seeing any American racing being shown or on their scratch boards.
Yes. according to the press release from NYRA, there is money coming from Europe.

[thespaah]

Saratoga averaged $16 million a day. Del Mar $12 million. Least anyone still think they're comparable meets.
On Alabama Day, there was 40,000 on property. The on track handle was $6.4 million or $160 per person. My churn for the day was $390. All sources was over $26.4 million.
That same day at Del Mar, they ran the Pacific Classic. The attendance was around 25k. On track was $4.1 million or per capita of $171 . All sources, $24.9 million..... So the attendance for the Pacific Classic was much weaker, the handle was comparable if averaged out....Now, the next day.....Sunday, showed a more realistic comparison....
Del Mar attendance 10,100 On track 1.72 million. Note the same per capita.....
all sources 14.2 million
For Saratoga, on one of the few rainy days this meet, $25k still decided to head to the track, Handle locally was $3.6 million. All sources was $17 million.
This was with a steady rain most of the day.

[thespaah]

I'm preparing a spreadsheet that I plan on presenting to the CHRB later this year.

These are preliminary numbers but...

In WPS pools where both tracks have approximate level takeout rates:

I have DEL MAR handling about 75% as much as SARATOGA.

But in EXACTA pools where DEL MAR has a 22.68% takeout rate and SARATOGA has an 18.50% takeout rate:

I have DEL MAR handling just 47% as much as SARATOGA.

In my opinion that number is staggering - and not in a good way.

A simple revenue calc suggests that having an exacta takeout that is out of line vs. the rest of the industry cost Del Mar about $12,500.00 in lost revenue per exacta pool this summer.

Multiply that times the number of exacta pools over the course of the 2016 Del Mar meet and they cost themselves several million in lost purse money (opportunity cost.)





-jp

.
Yesx. The take out for NYRA tacks on exacta wagers is 18.5 lower than So Cal. 4.1 cents more per dollar is a rather significant number.
if of the $12 million per day wagered is about 40% exacta wagers, that is about $5 million in exacta action for each day. With 4 cents per dollar less in take out, similar exacta handle in NY means an additional 200k remaining in the pools for the day.

[the little guy]

Saratoga averaged $16 million a day. Del Mar $12 million. Least anyone still think they're comparable meets.

These are not comparable numbers. CA calculates the handle much differently than other States, which results in their numbers appearing higher than they actually are. They include on-track handle, as well as satellite betting handle, on other jurisdictions, something that other States do not do ( and NYRA certainly does not do ).

[VigorsTheGrey]

What comes next for new York racing? Does it take awhile for Saratoga local businesses and crowd to wind down?

[ronsmac]

Intersting article about Saratoga on horseraceinsider.com . Evidently the racing days are so long that large chunks of people are leaving before the big stakes races. The 6 and 7 hour cards are too long.

[pandy]

I prefer 9 or 10 race cards. Some of the cards were 6 and a half hours long and got out near 7 pm.

[SuperPickle]

These are not comparable numbers. CA calculates the handle much differently than other States, which results in their numbers appearing higher than they actually are. They include on-track handle, as well as satellite betting handle, on other jurisdictions, something that other States do not do ( and NYRA certainly does not do ).

Andy, so what you're saying is the $16 million number is Saratoga on track and off minus out of country. The Del Mar number includes on track, off track and for some reason simulcasting wagering on other tracks from Del Mar and their OTB's?

[the little guy]

Andy, so what you're saying is the $16 million number is Saratoga on track and off minus out of country. The Del Mar number includes on track, off track and for some reason simulcasting wagering on other tracks from Del Mar and their OTB's?

I wouldn't worry about the out of country numbers.

NY, and every other state that I know of except CA, reports their numbers based on monies bet on their races. CA includes monies bet on other tracks.

If you just looked at all reported daily handles including CA, you would see some monies being double counted due to how CA reports handle. As an example, if you look at the handle numbers in the charts for Monday 9/5 at Del Mar, those numbers add up to $19,426,509. The actual dollars wagered on Del Mar were just over $16.2 million.

Take 15 minutes and add up the race by race handle numbers from any racing day there ( combining WPS, exactas, tris, supers, and all multi-race bets ) and you will see how significantly it differs from the numbers at the bottom of the charts.

[classhandicapper]

Interesting article about Saratoga on horseraceinsider.com . Evidently the racing days are so long that large chunks of people are leaving before the big stakes races. The 6 and 7 hour cards are too long.

There may be other things at work on weekends besides how many hours the card is.

I left before the card ended every time I was there this year (though I did stay for the major stake of the day). In order get back to the hotel, freshen up, and then get to my dinner reservation, I had to both leave early and make reservations a little later than I would prefer. That already cuts into time I enjoy spending in town doing other things. If I stayed for the entire card I'd have to eat even later and have even less time to enjoy other things. All the people I knew up there also left early to make it to dinner at a time they prefer. I have no idea if it makes sense to change anything. I am simply making an observation.

[alhattab]

There may be other things at work on weekends besides how many hours the card is.

I left before the card ended every time I was there this year (though I did stay for the major stake of the day). In order get back to the hotel, freshen up, and then get to my dinner reservation, I had to both leave early and make reservations a little later than I would prefer. That already cuts into time I enjoy spending in town doing other things. If I stayed for the entire card I'd have to eat even later and have even less time to enjoy other things. All the people I knew up there also left early to make it to dinner at a time they prefer. I have no idea if it makes sense to change anything. I am simply making an observation.

It helps to have the races on TV in hi-def. you really don't even need to stay- you can enjoy a quality tv production while getting ready to go out or while have a pre-dinner drink

[thespaah]

Intersting article about Saratoga on horseraceinsider.com . Evidently the racing days are so long that large chunks of people are leaving before the big stakes races. The 6 and 7 hour cards are too long.
Well, those that leave early are almost replaced by those arriving late.
For example, my friend and I went down later in the day. It appeared just as many people were going into the track as there were leaving. And the handle figures bear that out. Handle does not appear to drop off after the half way race on the program. In fact, handle actually increases up to the featured race(s) of the day.
It is only after the stake race(s) that the last one or two races see lower handle, but not lower than that wagered on earlier races.
So while it is a long day for some, mainly newbies, people with kids as well as vacationers, the overall experience seems to agree with the majority of attendees.

[SuperPickle]

Well, those that leave early are almost replaced by those arriving late.
For example, my friend and I went down later in the day. It appeared just as many people were going into the track as there were leaving. And the handle figures bear that out. Handle does not appear to drop off after the half way race on the program. In fact, handle actually increases up to the featured race(s) of the day.
It is only after the stake race(s) that the last one or two races see lower handle, but not lower than that wagered on earlier races.
So while it is a long day for some, mainly newbies, people with kids as well as vacationers, the overall experience seems to agree with the majority of attendees.

Dave Grennig made this point during Royal Ascot. How Royal Ascot's cards are around 7-8 races while on big days we run 12-13 races. Assuming every race is 30 minutes basically are big days are around 3 hours than in Europe. That's essentially the same length as an entire football or baseball game.

[thespaah]

These are not comparable numbers. CA calculates the handle much differently than other States, which results in their numbers appearing higher than they actually are. They include on-track handle, as well as satellite betting handle, on other jurisdictions, something that other States do not do ( and NYRA certainly does not do ).
On equibase, for NYRA the handle is broken down by on track and "interstate"....I had always assumed the interstate portion included handle from OTB's, simulcast sites and ADW's.....So which portion of handle is NOT included?
Another question i have is how do we access those numbers?
I like the reports NYRA releases to the public. For example the most recent numbers from the conclusion of the 2016 Spa meeting. BTW, very encouraging.
I'd like to see the daily handle....
Anyway, as I have always maintained, Saratoga is the preeminent Thoroughbred meeting in North America.

[thespaah]

I wouldn't worry about the out of country numbers.

NY, and every other state that I know of except CA, reports their numbers based on monies bet on their races. CA includes monies bet on other tracks.

If you just looked at all reported daily handles including CA, you would see some monies being double counted due to how CA reports handle. As an example, if you look at the handle numbers in the charts for Monday 9/5 at Del Mar, those numbers add up to $19,426,509. The actual dollars wagered on Del Mar were just over $16.2 million.

Take 15 minutes and add up the race by race handle numbers from any racing day there ( combining WPS, exactas, tris, supers, and all multi-race bets ) and you will see how significantly it differs from the numbers at the bottom of the charts.
Ahh. I should have read this post before I responded to your previous post.
So For example, Del Mar's handle includes simulcast action.

[thespaah]

Dave Grennig made this point during Royal Ascot. How Royal Ascot's cards are around 7-8 races while on big days we run 12-13 races. Assuming every race is 30 minutes basically are big days are around 3 hours than in Europe. That's essentially the same length as an entire football or baseball game.
Well, They do things their way. We do them our way.
The grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence.
BTW, looking at race programs in Japan, 12 race cards are typical.

[EMD4ME]

If it was up to me, the SPA would run 15 race cards, with 3 pick 5's and a 1st post of 12!

Love the SPA!

[EMD4ME]

I wouldn't worry about the out of country numbers.

NY, and every other state that I know of except CA, reports their numbers based on monies bet on their races. CA includes monies bet on other tracks.

If you just looked at all reported daily handles including CA, you would see some monies being double counted due to how CA reports handle. As an example, if you look at the handle numbers in the charts for Monday 9/5 at Del Mar, those numbers add up to $19,426,509. The actual dollars wagered on Del Mar were just over $16.2 million.

Take 15 minutes and add up the race by race handle numbers from any racing day there ( combining WPS, exactas, tris, supers, and all multi-race bets ) and you will see how significantly it differs from the numbers at the bottom of the charts.

Great info Andy. Question, is there anywhere one can access the total of simulcast handle generated at AQU and BEL daily?

You've seen our die hards. They don't mess around and they bet a ton of simulcast action. I'd venture to say we lead the country in "outgoing simulcast handle".

Am I crazy to think that?

[SuperPickle]

Great info Andy. Question, is there anywhere one can access the total of simulcast handle generated at AQU and BEL daily?

You've seen our die hards. They don't mess around and they bet a ton of simulcast action. I'd venture to say we lead the country in "outgoing simulcast handle".

Am I crazy to think that?

My understanding is the largest single player in the US right now is this guy...

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/04/the-man-who-broke-atlantic-city/308900/

He does $10-15 million a year. To put that in perceptive he bets more in a year than some racinos handle in a month or two. I don't know of anyone pumping in more annually but I'm sure there's other whales. His play is unique in that he plays a bunch of tracks and even harness. Obviously all computer.

So whoever has his play most likely is the biggest.

Here's the title I bet you can hold ENDME. New York (NYRA, NYC OTB, etc.) have historically have had HUGE per cap wagering. Back in the day I think the average NYRA on track pre cap was over $300. I'm sure its lower because all numbers are smaller but my hunch is its still three figures. To give a point of reference is hard because few tracks keep attendance anymore but Canterbury for example is literally about $20 per person.

So while I don't think you and your boys can lay fame to betting the most you probably are at the top or near the top of per cap.

[Redboard]

For some strange reason, a friend of mine wanted to visit Saratoga Springs last weekend(he’s not a racing fan). I told him where to stay and what to see but warned him that without the track open, it was a little pointless. Anyway, I receive this email from him yesterday:
--------------------------------------------------------
Hi *****,
We wanted to tell you what a great time we had in Sarasota Springs.
It is a great town and so much to do. We would like to go back again.

We were so lucky it rained on Saturday !!! Before we left we booked a tour of the Oklahoma Track on Saturday morning at 8:30am. They told us if it was raining it would be canceled. It was raining but we went to the Visitor Center anyway and the tour guide showed up to tell us the tour was canceled because it was raining too hard. He saw our NJ license plates and he had lived in NJ for a number of years, etc. So I asked him if we could take the tour in our SUV. He said he had never done that before but he would do it for us. So he took us on the normal tour of the Oklahoma track. We watched the horses warm up, then we drove back to the stables and saw them hot walking and washing the horses. Then he took us over to the new track, then the harness track, then the estate and track the sheik bought for $17M, then around town, then the racing museum, etc. I was supposed to be an hour and a half but he stayed with us for 3 hours. It was great.

We did a lot of other things, great restaurants, etc. We loved it.

Thanks so much for all the info. Would you like the packet back that you gave us? We still have it.

Take care,
*********************

[OTM Al]

For some strange reason, a friend of mine wanted to visit Saratoga Springs last weekend(he’s not a racing fan). I told him where to stay and what to see but warned him that without the track open, it was a little pointless. Anyway, I receive this email from him yesterday:
--------------------------------------------------------
Hi *****,
We wanted to tell you what a great time we had in Sarasota Springs.
It is a great town and so much to do. We would like to go back again.

We were so lucky it rained on Saturday !!! Before we left we booked a tour of the Oklahoma Track on Saturday morning at 8:30am. They told us if it was raining it would be canceled. It was raining but we went to the Visitor Center anyway and the tour guide showed up to tell us the tour was canceled because it was raining too hard. He saw our NJ license plates and he had lived in NJ for a number of years, etc. So I asked him if we could take the tour in our SUV. He said he had never done that before but he would do it for us. So he took us on the normal tour of the Oklahoma track. We watched the horses warm up, then we drove back to the stables and saw them hot walking and washing the horses. Then he took us over to the new track, then the harness track, then the estate and track the sheik bought for $17M, then around town, then the racing museum, etc. I was supposed to be an hour and a half but he stayed with us for 3 hours. It was great.

We did a lot of other things, great restaurants, etc. We loved it.

Thanks so much for all the info. Would you like the packet back that you gave us? We still have it.

Take care,
*********************
Actually I find Saratoga extremely enjoyable when the meet is not running. So many fun things to see and do in the area. The restaurants and shopping are top notch. And no massive crowds to deal with so you can get in almost everywhere on short notice. Fun town.