For Hong Kong Fans

[OTM Al]

Evidently the DRF has created a partnership with HKJC and will now be having analysis and PPs available

http://www.drf.com/hk

Know some here are big fans and others want to try it out so though i'd post this

[classhandicapper]

I'm going to take a peak. ;)

[betovernetcapper]

This is great news :)

[Nitro]

I personally don’t use PP’s, but for those interested in reading them (the Form Guide) directly from the Hong Kong Jockey Club they’re available at: (and printed in English)
http://www.hkjc.com/english/formguide/1.html

They also offer what’s called a Speed Map which offers an idea of how the race shapes up if they all run according to their previous styles:
http://www.hkjc.com/english/speedguide/1.html?b_cid=EWRSSPE_formguide_Clickspeedmap

If anyone is interested, we’ll be on board this (Sat) morning in the Selection Forum doing all the races live.

[Redboard]

Are there trainer stats on any of the sites people posted so far?

I looked around for a few minutes but couldn't any.

[ReplayRandall]

I'm going to take a peak. ;)

Don't fall off that "peak" when straining to take a peek..:cool:

[Nitro]

Are there trainer stats on any of the sites people posted so far?

I looked around for a few minutes but couldn't any.
Draw Statistics
http://racing.hkjc.com/racing/info/meeting/Draw/english/Local/

Other stats (Trainer & Jockey) will also become available as the racing progresses.
http://www.hkjc.com/home/english/index.asp

[JustRalph]

DRF format for software would be a great next step

[rsetup]

DRF format for software would be a great next step

I disagree. HKG site is completely transparent.

[Nitro]

I disagree. HKG site is completely transparent.
You certainly nailed that one!
And the racing information available there surpasses anything from a single that I'm aware of.

[rsetup]

You certainly nailed that one!
And the racing information available there surpasses anything from a single that I'm aware of.

There could be a possible problem down the line. If they get access to HKG result data, they'll start selling it and encrypt PDF the results they don't sell. Or even worse, convince HKG to PDF their data. They got a toe in there.

[whodoyoulike]

I disagree. HKG site is completely transparent.

I'm just guessing but I think he wants pp's similar to the DRF or BRIS format. I've also have been hoping for this but there's always something.

Thanks Nitro for the previous links.

[Nitro]

There could be a possible problem down the line. If they get access to HKG result data, they'll start selling it and encrypt PDF the results they don't sell. Or even worse, convince HKG to PDF their data. They got a toe in there.
You may have point, but I think the HKJC stands on its own as far as their information goes. They could care less what DRF does with their information. Since they have a large long-standing English and Australian patronage, it’s very doubtful that the HKJC is going to change the structure of their Web site and available information. I believe this is just another avenue the DRF is taking to making the betting on HK racing available to DRF customers.

[classhandicapper]

Don't fall off that "peak" when straining to take a peek..:cool:

That's one of the weaknesses of spell check. It's not totally idiot proof. :lol:

[JustRalph]

I'm just guessing but I think he wants pp's similar to the DRF or BRIS format. I've also have been hoping for this but there's always something.

Thanks Nitro for the previous links.

👍. Yep

[AltonKelsey]

Hard to believe it's taking this long to deliver US style PP's for hong kong.

I guess they don't realize that the biggest impediment to US based players getting involved are the peculiar pp's that are offered.

They have lots of info, but for folks used to 30 years or more of DRF, its a Mind F&&&.

No reason they can't produce HK races in US format ,pace and speed figures, possibly with ADDED information like weight of horse , etc, that HK makes available.

[Nitro]

Hard to believe it's taking this long to deliver US style PP's for hong kong.

I guess they don't realize that the biggest impediment to US based players getting involved are the peculiar pp's that are offered.

They have lots of info, but for folks used to 30 years or more of DRF, its a Mind F&&&.

No reason they can't produce HK races in US format ,pace and speed figures, possibly with ADDED information like weight of horse , etc, that HK makes available.
I beg to differ.
The biggest "impediment" is certainly not in the area of pertinent information! And its definitely not a question of format. Its a statement of quality content. The HK Jockey Club's current information platform is so easy to read and understand an amateur 12 year old could handle it. Ask that same 12 year old to try and get something out of PP's delivered by the DRF. Someone mentioned "transparency" and that's about as concise a description as you can get.

The only obstruction I see the is the one I experience each time I play HK: Its the time difference. They're 12 hours ahead in time from EST which means the racing this morning will start at 1:00 AM in NY. Of course our West Coast players have it a bit easier.

[rsetup]

Racing data, results, primarily, is key to any player. You can make him pay for it, parse your PDF or make it freely available on your site. The NBA gets this. So does HKG. US racetracks don't. Data analysis is the hot interest presently. Too bad not much of it, proportionally, is happening in racing. Why would US racing want to encourage analysis of its precious data, when it can sell it? That's the way to grow the sport.

I've been playing the ponies over 40 years. The game here is consistently regressing. HKG is the way to go for the serious player.

[the little guy]

Racing data, results, primarily, is key to any player. You can make him pay for it, parse your PDF or make it freely available on your site. The NBA gets this. So does HKG. US racetracks don't. Data analysis is the hot interest presently. Too bad not much of it, proportionally, is happening in racing. Why would US racing want to encourage analysis of its precious data, when it can sell it? That's the way to grow the sport.

I've been playing the ponies over 40 years. The game here is consistently regressing. HKG is the way to go for the serious player.


I constantly see this "racetracks should give away the pps" argument here. I find it curious that people here think racetracks own this data. It's fairly obvious that they don't. I'm also confused as to why people think there is some pool of horseplayers out there...all they need are free pps to begin playing. This is also, at best, a specious argument.

Using the Hong Kong situation to seemingly demonstrate what US racing isn't doing, but should be doing, is also a specious argument. The reasons for this are also as abundant as they are obvious.

[whodoyoulike]

I beg to differ.
The biggest "impediment" is certainly not in the area of pertinent information! And its definitely not a question of format. Its a statement of quality content. The HK Jockey Club's current information platform is so easy to read and understand an amateur 12 year old could handle it. Ask that same 12 year old to try and get something out of PP's delivered by the DRF. Someone mentioned "transparency" and that's about as concise a description as you can get.

The only obstruction I see the is the one I experience each time I play HK: Its the time difference. They're 12 hours ahead in time from EST which means the racing this morning will start at 1:00 AM in NY. Of course our West Coast players have it a bit easier.


I agree with AltonKelsey's post. I briefly tried a while back and I do like the amount of info but I remember having open about 4 - 5 tabs on a horse and it became confusing after a while. And, I agree about the time difference but I can adjust since I think they only ran 2x a week and I'd probably be selective which days to get involved.

[Nitro]

I constantly see this "racetracks should give away the pps" argument here. I find it curious that people here think racetracks own this data. It's fairly obvious that they don't. I'm also confused as to why people think there is some pool of horseplayers out there...all they need are free pps to begin playing. This is also, at best, a specious argument.

Using the Hong Kong situation to seemingly demonstrate what US racing isn't doing, but should be doing, is also a specious argument. The reasons for this are also as abundant as they are obvious.
Now that’s a sad statement coming from someone in your position with the NYRA. You’ve certainly been around the corner a few times when it comes to playing this game, and the failure to recognize the issues so frequently portrayed by players on this site (and others) with racing in North America apparently eludes you completely. My only conclusion is that you honestly have no clue as to why the Hong Kong product (be it racing information, addressing pre-race physicality, or the integrity of the racing itself) far an away provides a superior experience for any player.

Making any excuses for N.A. racing jurisdictions not concerning themselves with what they offer their patrons is as far as I’m concerned a pathetic argument, based on an obvious indifference to the concerns of those who are involved in this game from betting perspective.

[the little guy]

Now that’s a sad statement coming from someone in your position with the NYRA. You’ve certainly been around the corner a few times when it comes to playing this game, and the failure to recognize the issues so frequently portrayed by players on this site (and others) with racing in North America apparently eludes you completely. My only conclusion is that you honestly have no clue as to why the Hong Kong product (be it racing information, addressing pre-race physicality, or the integrity of the racing itself) far an away provides a superior experience for any player.

Making any excuses for N.A. racing jurisdictions not concerning themselves with what they offer their patrons is as far as I’m concerned a pathetic argument, based on an obvious indifference to the concerns of those who are involved in this game from betting perspective.

Yet another Straw Man argument. Why I am I not surprised.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I thought Equibase was owned by industry participants, including the tracks. Equibase owns the data. So don't the tracks own the PP data, albeit indirectly?

[betovernetcapper]

There a a few interesting free handicapping items for HK

https://www.punters.com.au/news/

This site is basically for Australian racing but they also have HK. One great feature is you can click to have much of the PP data in Excel.

HKJC offers a free simulation program

http://www.racesimulator.com.hk/main_en.html

There is also a free app called Fast Form with gives you basic data and a sim.

HK takes some getting used to, but it's interesting & you can get a price from time to time. :)

[cj]

I thought Equibase was owned by industry participants, including the tracks. Equibase owns the data. So don't the tracks own the PP data, albeit indirectly?

I don't think anyone knows what the hell is going on any longer. Tracks and Equibase have some sort of partnership obviously or the chart caller wouldn't get space to do the job. Frankly, I think the whole thing is a mess.

Now Equibase not only sells the data that tracks allow them to gather to resellers like DRF, BRIS and TimeformUS, they turn around and directly compete with those customers.

Only in horse racing part 629.

[AltonKelsey]

I'm surprised the gist of my comment got lost. Well, maybe not.

I've been playing for many decades, and I'm comfortable with data generated by others, as well as my own homegrown database and stat engine.

Most USA horseplayers are used to a certain format. Asking them to play not only a foreign racetrack, but use a significantly different format is not conducive to gaining traction.

There's no reason the data for HK can't be presented EXACTLY as it is for BELMONT.

The primary PP's that HK puts out have issues. Too few races. And the date is inverted with the most recent race on the bottom , not the top. This is a royal hassle for anyone used to looking at the Form.

The data on the website is extraordinary, but something of a project to wade thorough.

Producing speed and pace figures should be a trivial undertaking for Equibase or Beyer. Considering the amount of handle at HK tracks, its astounding they haven't picked up the ball.

[JustRalph]

I think Andy makes an interesting point, albeit it missed apparently. It's been obvious to me since I first had to choose a data provider that the data side of horse racing is a completely different business that runs as its own beast and depending on who you choose to make your provider, they are far flung from the tracks and vice versa.

If they were working together as a business don't you think the massive screw ups at the tracks such as huge timing errors etc would be few and far between? One product leaning on the other would I think make them more conscientious, but I see almost no sign of one caring one bit about the other.

Then again, often I miss Andy's point and he may mean something all together different. It's late....I'm tired as hell.

[the little guy]

I think Andy makes an interesting point, albeit it missed apparently. It's been obvious to me since I first had to choose a data provider that the data side of horse racing is a completely different business that runs as its own beast and depending on who you choose to make your provider, they are far flung from the tracks and vice versa.

If they were working together as a business don't you think the massive screw ups at the tracks such as huge timing errors etc would be few and far between? One product leaning on the other would I think make them more conscientious, but I see almost no sign of one caring one bit about the other.

Then again, often I miss Andy's point and he may mean something all together different. It's late....I'm tired as hell.

I appreciate someone even trying to figure out what I was attempting to say :lol: I'm rarely very clever.

I occasionally feel a need to try to interject a little reality into some people's kneejerk misconceptions. Surely we would all like to tap into some unknown group of players. That's the billion dollar question for many businesses. In this case I wanted to mention that giving away data that we don't own isn't a very easy thing to do. ;)

I'm sure Hong Kong does many things well ( if the person I responded to actually listened to my broadcasts instead of pretending to and criticizing something he doesn't hear, then he would know I like their idea of connections revealing strategies beforehand ) but they also operate in a VERY different environment than most racetracks, and specifically the one in NY. All of these things are obvious to anyone that actually wants to have a legitimate discussion ( I know...what's that? ). The problem is that too many posters have their own agendas, and aren't interested in discourse, and it is these people that have driven many of the reflective posters away. I have the utmost respect for those that continue to try to fight the good fight.

Anyway, I'll let people get back to throwing innocent people in jail for imagined offenses, or the even more herculean task of changing the laws of mathematics. :)

[castaway01]

All of these things are obvious to anyone that actually wants to have a legitimate discussion ( I know...what's that? ). The problem is that too many posters have their own agendas, and aren't interested in discourse, and it is these people that have driven many of the reflective posters away. I have the utmost respect for those that continue to try to fight the good fight.

Anyway, I'll let people get back to throwing innocent people in jail for imagined offenses, or the even more herculean task of changing the laws of mathematics. :)

I'm certainly not a reflective poster (more of a knee-jerk sarcastic one) but since I've pointed out at least 50 times that the laws governing Hong Kong racing and the laws governing U.S. racing are about as similar as apples and elephants, after a while I just figure whoever is paying certain posters to shill for HK racing also pays for a blindfold and/or earplugs.

But yes, it would be nice if racetracks controlled all the gambling in this country---all the lotteries, and all the casinos---like they do in Hong Kong, yet still had the roughly same takeout as the U.S., like they do in Hong Kong. What a wonderful place it is.

[the little guy]

I'm certainly not a reflective poster (more of a knee-jerk sarcastic one) but since I've pointed out at least 50 times that the laws governing Hong Kong racing and the laws governing U.S. racing are about as similar as apples and elephants, after a while I just figure whoever is paying certain posters to shill for HK racing also pays for a blindfold and/or earplugs.

But yes, it would be nice if racetracks controlled all the gambling in this country---all the lotteries, and all the casinos---like they do in Hong Kong, yet still had the roughly same takeout as the U.S., like they do in Hong Kong. What a wonderful place it is.

You're reflective.

I'm not sure how you persevere:-)

[cj]

I'm surprised the gist of my comment got lost. Well, maybe not.

I've been playing for many decades, and I'm comfortable with data generated by others, as well as my own homegrown database and stat engine.

Most USA horseplayers are used to a certain format. Asking them to play not only a foreign racetrack, but use a significantly different format is not conducive to gaining traction.

There's no reason the data for HK can't be presented EXACTLY as it is for BELMONT.

The primary PP's that HK puts out have issues. Too few races. And the date is inverted with the most recent race on the bottom , not the top. This is a royal hassle for anyone used to looking at the Form.

The data on the website is extraordinary, but something of a project to wade thorough.

Producing speed and pace figures should be a trivial undertaking for Equibase or Beyer. Considering the amount of handle at HK tracks, its astounding they haven't picked up the ball.


I've thought about this often. In the end, I just don't think it is worth the time and effort to do something for a product that is shown here in the middle of the night. I just don't think the market is big enough.

[cj]

Honest question here...

If tracks don't own the data, isn't that only because they have sold it?

[Saratoga_Mike]

"Equibase Company LLC, a general partnership between The Jockey Club and the Thoroughbred Racing Associations of North America (TRA), was formed in 1990 to establish a single Thoroughbred-industry-owned database of racing information."

Source: Equibase

[Saratoga_Mike]

What is TRA?

"In 2011, the TRA has 43 member associations conducting racing at 39 racetracks in the United States and Canada."

Source: tra-online.com

To me, tracks own the data, albeit indirectly through control of the TRA. We don't know the JC's interest in Equibase LLC, though, which is important info.

[Saratoga_Mike]

From 1993: "It seems inevitable the Racing Form will discontinue data collection and become an Equibase client," said Crist. "Our experience at The Racing Times showed it costs $5 (million) to $6 million a year to gather data, and how can the Form continue to justify this?"

Source: nwsource.com

In 2016 dollars, I assume it costs probably 10 mm/yr to collect the data. If Equibase just gives away the data/PPs, someone needs to absorb the costs.

[cj]

What is TRA?

"In 2011, the TRA has 43 member associations conducting racing at 39 racetracks in the United States and Canada."

Source: tra-online.com

To me, tracks own the data, albeit indirectly through control of the TRA. We don't know the JC's interest in Equibase LLC, though, which is important info.

This is what I was saying, it is very hard to figure out anymore.

For the record, the idea of one central database is a must. I can't how chaotic things would be in racing without this. It is similar to ADWs. Imagine if you had to have an account for every track to make a bet at each.

That said, ADWs are not monopolies. Equibase clearly is. I can't start a competitor because tracks won't give me access, both physical and data, like they do Equibase. I could document all the results from video replays, just like charts, but having all the information necessary for past performances isn't available.

You have to buy a license from Equibase to get everything, and in turn Equibase competes with you too.

[cj]

From 1993: "It seems inevitable the Racing Form will discontinue data collection and become an Equibase client," said Crist. "Our experience at The Racing Times showed it costs $5 (million) to $6 million a year to gather data, and how can the Form continue to justify this?"

Source: nwsource.com

In 2016 dollars, I assume it costs probably 10 mm/yr to collect the data. If Equibase just gives away the data/PPs, someone needs to absorb the costs.

The theory is free PPs with basic data would drive handle and pay for itself. I don't know if that is reality, but I suspect not. What I do know is that any innovation is stifled because data costs are prohibitive.

[lamboguy]

The theory is free PPs with basic data would drive handle and pay for itself. I don't know if that is reality, but I suspect not. What I do know is that any innovation is stifled because data costs are prohibitive.i agree, further more the people that need free data in order to bet figure to be the kind that the race tracks throughout the continent lose money on.

[lamboguy]

also not because you are associated with Timeform, but its an excellent product that you can buy for the whole year for under $700 and get all the tracks. if you bet $10 with TVG you don't pay for it either.

[JustRalph]

I would think that today's tech might make it cheaper. Easier to obtain for sure. Distribution, for sure.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I'm not sure a central repository of data stifles innovation. In some cases, monopolies make sense (e.g., a public utility). Would it make sense for TimeForm, the DRF and other entities to replicate Equibase's efforts? I don't think so. One central repository of data allows data collection costs to be leveraged over multiple platforms. Should Equibase compete against TimeForm and DRF? I don't know, but I suspect the Equibase program (PPs) was created to keep value-added vendors (e.g., DRF) honest on pricing.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I would think that today's tech might make it cheaper. Easier to obtain for sure. Distribution, for sure.

Yes, I loved to know a breakdown of the 5 mm/yr (in 1993 dollars) between personnel costs and other (e.g., datbase and software spend).

[cj]

I'm not sure a central repository of data stifles innovation. In some cases, monopolies make sense (e.g., a public utility). Would it make sense for TimeForm, the DRF and other entities to replicate Equibase's efforts? I don't think so. One central repository of data allows data collection costs to be leveraged over multiple platforms. Should Equibase compete against TimeForm and DRF? I don't know, but I suspect the Equibase program (PPs) was created to keep value-added vendors (e.g., DRF) honest on pricing.


I already said a central database is a must. It stifles innovation because there little chance an individual can afford a license and explore the data and try new things.

I suspect (actually, nearly positive) you are WAY wrong on the reason for Equibase PPs. Stats Lens kind of proves this.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I already said a central database is a must. It stifles innovation because there little chance an individual can afford a license and explore the data and try new things.

I suspect (actually, nearly positive) you are WAY wrong on the reason for Equibase PPs. Stats Lens kind of proves this.

I'm sure you have more insight into it than I do. Should Equibase LLC strive to make a profit or just breakeven? It's a fascinating micro-economic study.

[cj]

I'm sure you have more insight into it than I do. Should Equibase LLC strive to make a profit or just breakeven? It's a fascinating micro-economic study.


That is a tough question to answer, especially when nobody really knows how things are set up as you have pointed out.

[whodoyoulike]

I'm surprised the gist of my comment got lost. Well, maybe not. ...

Most USA horseplayers are used to a certain format. Asking them to play not only a foreign racetrack, but use a significantly different format is not conducive to gaining traction.

There's no reason the data for HK can't be presented EXACTLY as it is for BELMONT.

The primary PP's that HK puts out have issues. Too few races. And the date is inverted with the most recent race on the bottom , not the top. This is a royal hassle for anyone used to looking at the Form.

The data on the website is extraordinary, but something of a project to wade thorough.

Producing speed and pace figures should be a trivial undertaking for Equibase or Beyer. Considering the amount of handle at HK tracks, its astounding they haven't picked up the ball.

As I previously stated, I would hope they could have similar presentations.

But, I do see a current problem in doing so. HKJC would have to have on-site chart callers for each race which doesn't currently seem to be the case then if true, presentation of historical data would be the real problem.

But, there should be some acceptable alternatives i.e., utilizing the video replays in a more useful manner. If I remember correctly, following each horse in the provided videos was difficult much less trying to make a comparison with the other entrants.

[betovernetcapper]

HKJC uses Trakus & if you want the times & beaten lengths at each call, click sectional time & position at the result chart & you'll get this

http://www.hkjc.com/english/racing/display_sectionaltime.asp?RaceDate=11/09/2016&Raceno=10&All=0#Race10

Kinda cool :)

[whodoyoulike]

HKJC uses Trakus & if you want the times & beaten lengths at each call, click sectional time & position at the result chart & you'll get this

http://www.hkjc.com/english/racing/display_sectionaltime.asp?RaceDate=11/09/2016&Raceno=10&All=0#Race10

Kinda cool :)

Thanks.

Forgot that they do show sectional times so they should be able to present pp's in a similar format which we're accustomed to seeing.

[cj]

Thanks.

Forgot that they do show sectional times so they should be able to present pp's in a similar format which we're accustomed to seeing.

Trakus is a little shaky in Hong Kong, just an FYI. They give a lot of disclaimers on the site.

[betovernetcapper]

To be fair isn't Trakus a little shaky everywhere?

[PaceAdvantage]

Now that’s a sad statement coming from someone in your position with the NYRA. You’ve certainly been around the corner a few times when it comes to playing this game, and the failure to recognize the issues so frequently portrayed by players on this site (and others) with racing in North America apparently eludes you completely. My only conclusion is that you honestly have no clue as to why the Hong Kong product (be it racing information, addressing pre-race physicality, or the integrity of the racing itself) far an away provides a superior experience for any player.

Making any excuses for N.A. racing jurisdictions not concerning themselves with what they offer their patrons is as far as I’m concerned a pathetic argument, based on an obvious indifference to the concerns of those who are involved in this game from betting perspective.Right off the bat, your statement seems odd, considering Andy is very much involved in the game from a betting perspective.

[whodoyoulike]

Trakus is a little shaky in Hong Kong, just an FYI. They give a lot of disclaimers on the site.

Haven't looked at their site in years. Thanks, now I'll probably revisit it. But, what would cause their reporting to be "shaky" if you have an opinion on it? Again, they could/should be able to provide similar pp's as Bris and DRF, IMO. I don't think presentation of data is copyrightable.

Another problem I have with HK racing is they race clockwise and I'm used to knowing the relational running positions to the finish line of the races. It'll be a matter of familiarity with their racing and will take some adjustment on my part. Also, differences in their betting menu will take time to get used to. I think their exacta was 1st and 3rd or something like that.

[betovernetcapper]

Just playing Devils advocate here. but why should they offer the PP in the way we traditionally view them? Most of the planet views pps in a format that is more similar to theirs than ours.
The racing is somewhat different than ours in that they have huge fields, 12 to 14 normally so post position is more of a factor then it is here. They also have big weight shifts, that we haven't had since the 1950's. It's not uncommon to see a field with weights ranging form 113 to 133 lbs. With that big a spread it can & does affect the results.
Because they have a lot of turf racing, there are a lot of blanket finishes. I don't think our traditional figures would work as well there as they do here. Beyer even wrote about creating figures for Australia & the problems he encountered.
Even in something as straightforward as creating a daily variant, problems arise. Yesterday there was one 5F race, 4 6F races, 3 7F races & 2 mile races. Do you make one variant for the sprints & one for the routes? Do you treat the 7F races as short routes? Do you just toss the 5F race in creating your variant? I'm not sure there's any simple answer to this.
BTW the betting format is win & place (place also means show). They also offer quinellas & tris. They also offer a bet called the swinger which is two horses in the money.
It's interesting.

[cj]

Haven't looked at their site in years. Thanks, now I'll probably revisit it. But, what would cause their reporting to be "shaky" if you have an opinion on it? Again, they could/should be able to provide similar pp's as Bris and DRF, IMO. I don't think presentation of data is copyrightable.

Another problem I have with HK racing is they race clockwise and I'm used to knowing the relational running positions to the finish line of the races. It'll be a matter of familiarity with their racing and will take some adjustment on my part. Also, differences in their betting menu will take time to get used to. I think their exacta was 1st and 3rd or something like that.

Lots of electronic interference.

[Nitro]

Right off the bat, your statement seems odd, considering Andy is very much involved in the game from a betting perspective.Why would it seem odd? In fact, that was the whole point of me responding to begin with! I thought it was kind of ironic that someone with his background could make such an ignorant statement with such a despondent attitude.
Maybe you missed the post I responded to:
Using the Hong Kong situation to seemingly demonstrate what US racing isn't doing, but should be doing, is also a specious argument. The reasons for this are also as abundant as they are obvious. Perhaps Andy should also consider improving his vocabulary before using adjectives like ”specious” to describe the meaning of his baseless argument.
The fact that HK offers a superior product is something that U.S racing jurisdictions should be emulating not ignoring. There is no argument! As far as I’m concerned if people who are directly involved with the game here in the States can’t see that, then they’re part of the problem not part of any solution.

[the little guy]

Why would it seem odd? In fact, that was the whole point of me responding to begin with! I thought it was kind of ironic that someone with his background could make such an ignorant statement with such a despondent attitude.
Maybe you missed the post I responded to:
Perhaps Andy should also consider improving his vocabulary before using adjectives like ”specious” to describe the meaning of his baseless argument.
The fact that HK offers a superior product is something that U.S racing jurisdictions should be emulating not ignoring. There is no argument! As far as I’m concerned if people who are directly involved with the game here in the States can’t see that, then they’re part of the problem not part of any solution.

The King of the Straw Man argument.

[classhandicapper]

What I do know is that any innovation is stifled because data costs are prohibitive.

IMO this is a double edged sword.

The data costs are prohibitive if you plan to resell them in some way. If you import PP and Chart data for personal use, the costs are reasonable.

Strictly as a gambler, I'm not entirely sure I want a bunch of people with an IQ of 150 and advanced degrees in statistics and data processing analyzing data and developing dozens of new reasonably priced products and APPs for the general public. Horse racing is a gambling game. To the extent the game gets tougher to beat, it becomes less and less attractive. Creating products that ultimately make the pools more efficient is a double edged sword.

When NYC OTB closed people in the industry were focusing on the unquestionable bottom line advantages of eliminating it. But it came at a cost, albeit a harder one to measure. A lot of people that were regulars in those branches stopped betting altogether. That was the deadest money in the pools.

The game is getting tougher because the dead money has been leaving and there are better products and more info available to the more serious players. That drives away others.

There's some kind of balance that needs to be struck between making information easy to understand and affordable but not killing the goose that lays the golden egg - which of course is having some shot at winning.

[lamboguy]

I beg to differ.
The biggest "impediment" is certainly not in the area of pertinent information! And its definitely not a question of format. Its a statement of quality content. The HK Jockey Club's current information platform is so easy to read and understand an amateur 12 year old could handle it. Ask that same 12 year old to try and get something out of PP's delivered by the DRF. Someone mentioned "transparency" and that's about as concise a description as you can get.

The only obstruction I see the is the one I experience each time I play HK: Its the time difference. They're 12 hours ahead in time from EST which means the racing this morning will start at 1:00 AM in NY. Of course our West Coast players have it a bit easier.Hong Kong does focus on transparency. i like the fact that every horse has to weigh in before they run. there have been numerous occasions when they reported a 75-100 weight drop between races where it stopped me from betting and i saved my money. this along with a real pro that takes great notes and has a tremendous eye for horse flesh in Jenny makes a big difference. i know its real tough to keep track of older horses because you hardly ever see that much change in them. this along with the other ways that the Hong Kong product gets scrutinized invites large gamblers.

Hong Kong only runs twice a week, be it that there is only 2 tracks on the whole island, manages to do close to $400 million in handle on a weekly basis along with at least 50,000 in attendance every time they run is pretty strong when you compare it to a boutique meet like Kentucky Downs which happens to be very exciting but will not do $40 million for a weeks worth of business.

[cj]

IMO this is a double edged sword.

The data costs are prohibitive if you plan to resell them in some way. If you import PP and Chart data for personal use, the costs are reasonable.

Strictly as a gambler, I'm not entirely sure I want a bunch of people with an IQ of 150 and advanced degrees in statistics and data processing analyzing data and developing dozens of new reasonably priced products and APPs for the general public. Horse racing is a gambling game. To the extent the game gets tougher to beat, it becomes less and less attractive. Creating products that ultimately make the pools more efficient is a double edged sword.

When NYC OTB closed people in the industry were focusing on the unquestionable bottom line advantages of eliminating it. But it came at a cost, albeit a harder one to measure. A lot of people that were regulars in those branches stopped betting altogether. That was the deadest money in the pools.

The game is getting tougher because the dead money has been leaving and there are better products and more info available to the more serious players. That drives away others.

There's some kind of balance that needs to be struck between making information easy to understand and affordable but not killing the goose that lays the golden egg - which of course is having some shot at winning.

The costs are reasonable if you start now. If you want to go back 5 or 10 years, which you need to really dive deep, not so much. And who wants to spend 5 or 10 years just collecting data?

[rsetup]

Here's what I find even more intetesting. And I qualify what follows by stating that this was the case a few months ago: I haven't checked recently. And I don't know how HKG handles it, as I'm PCless presently and can't look at browser page source.

Trakus is used by a number of tracks. I imagine, could be wrong, that Trakus also provides the webpage format, as this is consistent across those tracks. Last I checked, there were 2 formats: one transparent; the other with the data hidden by javascript. In other words, you can see the data in the sourcecode of the former but not the latter. Some tracks say, sure, use this data; the others only want you to view the data. It'd be interesting to note which tracks are in the former and which in the latter camp. So it's not totally an EQU thing.

[classhandicapper]

The costs are reasonable if you start now. If you want to go back 5 or 10 years, which you need to really dive deep, not so much. And who wants to spend 5 or 10 years just collecting data?

Back chart data can be purchased at a negotiated price. You can also purchase other specialized back data at a reasonable price. None of this stuff is ideal (which is the bigger problem), but as long as you aren't reselling, it's not killer expensive.

[Nitro]

Hong Kong does focus on transparency. i like the fact that every horse has to weigh in before they run. there have been numerous occasions when they reported a 75-100 weight drop between races where it stopped me from betting and i saved my money. this along with a real pro that takes great notes and has a tremendous eye for horse flesh in Jenny makes a big difference. i know its real tough to keep track of older horses because you hardly ever see that much change in them. this along with the other ways that the Hong Kong product gets scrutinized invites large gamblers.

Hong Kong only runs twice a week, be it that there is only 2 tracks on the whole island, manages to do close to $400 million in handle on a weekly basis along with at least 50,000 in attendance every time they run is pretty strong when you compare it to a boutique meet like Kentucky Downs which happens to be very exciting but will not do $40 million for a weeks worth of business.The amount money that’s wagered on each typical HK racing program is astronomical when compared to anything that’s happening at any of the tracks in No America. It really only lends more credibility to the overall product that they offer. Their international patrons recognize the value of solid information at every level. I’m not sure if the availability of all this information at “no charge” is more of incentive for players to stay involved, but I would think that it certainly doesn’t hurt. I was always under the impression that in the long run quality information leads to improved decision making.

It’s funny that you should mention the addition of the horse’s “weight” data. Not only is it posted for the current race, but all of the previous races run. That in combination with the varying weights carried in each race can also play an important role in playability. I know there’s been a number of comments here about a local organization like Equibase or DRF converting the HK data to their current formats. If in fact that happens, it should be interesting to see how they handle adding things like the horse’s weight, previous race commentary, etc.. As far as the speed figures go, a close friend of mine who uses them from their Form Guide claims that they are already very accurate across the board of varying race distances.

When it comes to physicality you can’t beat the descriptions offered in Jenny’s pre-race analysis. I’ve often changed my perception of a potential “in the money” possibility based on her dialogue. I’m sure many here don’t realize why there’s a full ½ hour between races in HK. It’s generally because they actually take the time to examine each animal and verbally convey that information. (Talk about transparency!) When your making decent sized wagers I’ll take current physicality information over race re-runs in a heart-beat! Especially considering that the horses are half-way around the world.

By the way, if any skeptics think I have any ties with the HK Jockey Club, they’re greatly mistaken. I’ve be at this game a long time and I’ve only been playing HK for the last 3 years. It doesn’t take much of an imagination to recognize just how much better their product is until you get involved. To be honest, as far as the payoffs go I feel like I’m playing the NY tracks back in the day, at a time when they too offered significant value.

[PaceAdvantage]

So you're comparing the HK handle per race card with American racing? How many fewer tracks and how many fewer racing days do they have compared to American racing? Yeah, I can imagine they handle a lot more per card on average than US racing, which is overflowing with tracks and race days.

[olddaddy]

So you're comparing the HK handle per race card with American racing? How many fewer tracks and how many fewer racing days do they have compared to American racing? Yeah, I can imagine they handle a lot more per card on average than US racing, which is overflowing with tracks and race days.


And how many other gambling alternatives do people there have compared to here.

[lamboguy]

its very hard to compare all the race tracks in North America to a place that only has 2. what you can compare though is the population size. Canada has a population of 35 million and the United States is over 325 million. Hong Kong has 7,300,000 inhabitants. the United States does have jurisdictions that don't allow pari mutuel wagering, maybe around 1/3rd. Hong Kong still has impressive numbers for their size.

[lamboguy]

And how many other gambling alternatives do people there have compared to here.they have casino's and lottery and are controlled by the Hong Kong Jockey Club

[Nitro]

So you're comparing the HK handle per race card with American racing? How many fewer tracks and how many fewer racing days do they have compared to American racing? Yeah, I can imagine they handle a lot more per card on average than US racing, which is overflowing with tracks and race days.Please…...…there is no comparison! Not when you consider that they only have 87 race days at 2 tracks. The total volume of their handle exceeds 15 billion dollars (U.S) per year and yet ALL of the tracks in North and South America COMBINED is 13 billion in the same year. The intent of my comparison is focused on the product they offer and the integrity of their game. I believe it’s the primary reason their patronage supports their game the way they do, and not because they have nothing else to bet on.

Yes, believe it or not the Chinese do have computers too. So they have access to many of the same betting venues that we do in their part of the world. In case anyone’s forgotten there’s racing in Australia, Japan, Singapore and New Zealand just to name a few.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes, believe it or not the Chinese do have computers too.Really? Wow! Thanks for the patronizing response.

I wasn't claiming the fact that the number of venues and racing dates are the ONLY reasons for the large per card handle. But you seem to ignore the very REAL differences that DO exist in not only number of venue and racing dates, but also governing oversight and that fact that there is one central jurisdiction calling the shots. Before you even reach the point of seeing what is and what is not provided to the players in HK compared to USA, there is a an orders of magnitude difference in the entire makeup of the industry.

You're basically trying to compare apples and oranges, and it seems to me, you are refusing to acknowledge any of this.

[betovernetcapper]

Part of the reason their handle is so big is they offer a 10% rebate on losing wagers. So a lot of whales & betting syndicates are fine tossing a 1/2 a million a day through the machines & just breaking even on their bets. Breaking even would still net a 5 figure profit.
I'm convinced a lot of the late money is big players just trying to balance their bets so they will win or break even in any reasonable circumstances.

http://special.hkjc.com/racing/info/en/betting/guide_rebate.asp

:)

[Nitro]

Really? Wow! Thanks for the patronizing response.

I wasn't claiming the fact that the number of venues and racing dates are the ONLY reasons for the large per card handle. But you seem to ignore the very REAL differences that DO exist in not only number of venue and racing dates, but also governing oversight and that fact that there is one central jurisdiction calling the shots. Before you even reach the point of seeing what is and what is not provided to the players in HK compared to USA, there is a an orders of magnitude difference in the entire makeup of the industry.

You're basically trying to compare apples and oranges, and it seems to me, you are refusing to acknowledge any of this.That so called patronizing response was directed at the following:
And how many other gambling alternatives do people there have compared to here.

How can I "ignore" something that really hasn’t been succinctly mentioned on this thread. You’ve apparently missed many of my previous posts on other threads regarding the differentiation between the HK Jockey Club organization and the so-called racing organizations here in the States. I understand full well the vast differences and the reasoning behind them. That doesn’t mean that in a free and capitalistic society that we can’t incorporate things like, No drugs in race horses and Complete jockey accountability for not only obvious riding infractions, but lethargic rides as well. Those are just 2 items which seem to plague our local game as well as how local players assess its integrity.

I’m not sure which are which, but let’s say for argument’s sake that the HKJC is the apple. I’d like to squeeze the oranges so the local Jockey clubs make some REAL positive changes in what they offer our players. I think most would agree that from a player’s perspective and in many respects that the local game is not what it used to be and could be advanced. I’m not naive enough to believe things might change over-night, but the HK model is certainly there to be emulated.

BTW, Feel free to forward this thread to any local jockey club. Not that they'll take it to heart, but perhaps they'll recognize that there are other operations superior to their own and players like myself are taking full advantage of them. ;)

[PaceAdvantage]

You'll get no argument from me that there are a multitude of changes that could be made in the industry here in the US that would better the game for the player and the industry as a whole. Many of them based on other jurisdictions such as Hong Kong.

The question is, why haven't they been done? Where is the bottleneck to getting sweeping changes implemented, bringing the game into the 21st century?

We all know the usual culprits, but who has really tried? Have they tried and failed? Or was it all lip service to begin with.

Is the industry that adverse to change? Adverse to investing in the future? Or can they never get anything done on a broad nationwide basis because the entire structure of the industry makes such a thing virtually impossible?

[Nitro]

You'll get no argument from me that there are a multitude of changes that could be made in the industry here in the US that would better the game for the player and the industry as a whole. Many of them based on other jurisdictions such as Hong Kong.

The question is, why haven't they been done? Where is the bottleneck to getting sweeping changes implemented, bringing the game into the 21st century?

We all know the usual culprits, but who has really tried? Have they tried and failed? Or was it all lip service to begin with.

Is the industry that adverse to change? Adverse to investing in the future? Or can they never get anything done on a broad nationwide basis because the entire structure of the industry makes such a thing virtually impossible?
NOW YOU'RE TALKING! :ThmbUp:
AND YOUR QUESTIONS ARE NOT ONLY VALID, THEIR ANSWERS ARE IMPORTANT TO THE ONGOING VIABILITY OF OUR GAME!

[whodoyoulike]

Part of the reason their handle is so big is they offer a 10% rebate on losing wagers. So a lot of whales & betting syndicates are fine tossing a 1/2 a million a day through the machines & just breaking even on their bets. Breaking even would still net a 5 figure profit.
I'm convinced a lot of the late money is big players just trying to balance their bets so they will win or break even in any reasonable circumstances.

http://special.hkjc.com/racing/info/en/betting/guide_rebate.asp

:)

Wasn't aware of this. So, when I bet thru my ADW (TVG) in the states they must be bundling our bets and if > $10K (HK), TVG must be receiving an add'l 10% rebate in addition to their simo fee.

Btw, the exacta bet which I was referring was thru TVG again I think it paid for 1st and 3rd only but I was looking at it over a year ago. I'm fairly certain it wasn't 1st and 2nd.

[whodoyoulike]

You'll get no argument from me that there are a multitude of changes that could be made in the industry here in the US that would better the game for the player and the industry as a whole. Many of them based on other jurisdictions such as Hong Kong.

The question is, why haven't they been done? Where is the bottleneck to getting sweeping changes implemented, bringing the game into the 21st century?

We all know the usual culprits, but who has really tried? Have they tried and failed? Or was it all lip service to begin with.

Is the industry that adverse to change? Adverse to investing in the future? Or can they never get anything done on a broad nationwide basis because the entire structure of the industry makes such a thing virtually impossible?

I'm guessing the problem correction would require one central organization versus our 50 +/- which we now have plus the state governments receiving a piece of the takeout. And since nobody would want to give up anything, it will be difficult to accomplish. "They" have been talking about it for years so maybe it is just lip service.

The resulting one organization would have to really want to do what's best for racing because now we would have a single monopoly which could just screw everybody over.

[betovernetcapper]

Wasn't aware of this. So, when I bet thru my ADW (TVG) in the states they must be bundling our bets and if > $10K (HK), TVG must be receiving an add'l 10% rebate in addition to their simo fee.

Btw, the exacta bet which I was referring was thru TVG again I think it paid for 1st and 3rd only but I was looking at it over a year ago. I'm fairly certain it wasn't 1st and 2nd.


That's what I'd do. LOL

They've changed the betting format we're offered recently. Right now in order to get 1st & 3rd payoff you'd need to bet the swinger which is any two of the top three. They do offer a QUINELLA PLACE bet which is 1st & 3rd but we aren't offered it currently.

[steveb]

HKJC uses Trakus & if you want the times & beaten lengths at each call, click sectional time & position at the result chart & you'll get this

http://www.hkjc.com/english/racing/display_sectionaltime.asp?RaceDate=11/09/2016&Raceno=10&All=0#Race10

Kinda cool :)

that's NOT trakus.
Although Trakus is indeed installed at HV and Shatin, the club chooses not to actually use it.
I guess it is up to the individual to decide why that is the case.

Trakus at this point in time does not have the times on their site for HK this season.
But I have often checked Trakus times and those on the HKJC site, and they are ALWAYS different.

HKJC is excellent in that that they won't knowingly put inaccurate data on their website.
Perhaps that is saying something.

[betovernetcapper]

I just clicked on the Trakus & when you then click on HKJC it directs you to the charts, so they appear to give the impression that they are providing a service or that HKJC is a client.

http://www.trakus.com/portal.asp

You could be right, but I don't see the point in either maintaining a fiction that it's being used.

[Nitro]

that's NOT trakus.
Although Trakus is indeed installed at HV and Shatin, the club chooses not to actually use it.
I guess it is up to the individual to decide why that is the case.

Trakus at this point in time does not have the times on their site for HK this season.
But I have often checked Trakus times and those on the HKJC site, and they are ALWAYS different.

HKJC is excellent in that that they won't knowingly put inaccurate data on their website.
Perhaps that is saying something.
I think that says a lot! Thanks for that confirmation. (Sounds like just a bit more transparency to me)

Perhaps that’s what CJ was eluding to in his posts and why they won’t depend on the Trakus output.Trakus is a little shaky in Hong Kong, just an FYI. They give a lot of disclaimers on the site.Lots of electronic interference.

[castaway01]

Really? Wow! Thanks for the patronizing response.

I wasn't claiming the fact that the number of venues and racing dates are the ONLY reasons for the large per card handle. But you seem to ignore the very REAL differences that DO exist in not only number of venue and racing dates, but also governing oversight and that fact that there is one central jurisdiction calling the shots. Before you even reach the point of seeing what is and what is not provided to the players in HK compared to USA, there is a an orders of magnitude difference in the entire makeup of the industry.

You're basically trying to compare apples and oranges, and it seems to me, you are refusing to acknowledge any of this.

You could have just quoted the post where I said the same thing Bossman, though I said "apples and elephants" because I thought it had a pleasant ring to it. ;)

[steveb]

I just clicked on the Trakus & when you then click on HKJC it directs you to the charts, so they appear to give the impression that they are providing a service or that HKJC is a client.

http://www.trakus.com/portal.asp

You could be right, but I don't see the point in either maintaining a fiction that it's being used.


Well, I guess that people do use it, and it does have more info than the HKJC site does.

But, how accurate is that info?

All I am saying is that the section time info on the HKJC site is different to that which is put on the Trakus site for HK.

Logically, that insinuates that Trakus is NOT the provider of the section times displayed on the HKJC site.

But I don't know where they originate from, all I know is that after my checks, it is more accurate than the Trakus data for those same races(and easier to put into a workable format).

[ReplayRandall]

Trakus is a little shaky in Hong Kong, just an FYI. They give a lot of disclaimers on the site.

Right you are, CJ. Here is the disclaimer concerning Trakus from HKJC:

"Aerial Virtual Replay is provided by an external vendor Trakus, for personal infotainment only. Due to the frequent usage of mobile phones at the racecourses, the signals receiving by Trakus system may be affected and thus the accuracy of Aerial Virtual Replay cannot be guaranteed. Every effort is made to ensure the information is up to the closest approximation, but the club assumes no responsibility for it. For the actual race results, the customers should refer to Real Replay videos."

[Nitro]

Well, I guess that people do use it, and it does have more info than the HKJC site does. But, how accurate is that info?

All I am saying is that the section time info on the HKJC site is different to that which is put on the Trakus site for HK. Logically, that insinuates that Trakus is NOT the provider of the section times displayed on the HKJC site.

But I don't know where they originate from, all I know is that after my checks, it is more accurate than the Trakus data for those same races(and easier to put into a workable format).As I mentioned previously, my buddy apparently agrees with your findings. As far as the speed figures go, a close friend of mine who uses them from their Form Guide claims that they are already very accurate across the board of varying race distances. He also claims that his track variants are a lot easier to generate because of the limited number of classes involved.

Something that I’ve observed when listening to each of their HK post-race analyses is that they always announce the sectional times, and then offer a comparison between the final time run and I assume a par time for the class and distance, by saying something like “It was within (or above, or below) standard”. Whether or not someone might find this type of information useful is neither here nor there. I think it’s just another example of the thoroughness of their program.

[steveb]

As I mentioned previously, my buddy apparently agrees with your findings. He also claims that his track variants are a lot easier to generate because of the limited number of classes involved.

Something that I’ve observed when listening to each of their HK post-race analyses is that they always announce the sectional times, and then offer a comparison between the final time run and I assume a par time for the class and distance, by saying something like “It was within (or above, or below) standard”. Whether or not someone might find this type of information useful is neither here nor there. I think it’s just another example of the thoroughness of their program.

they have standard times on their site.... http://www.hkjc.com/english/racinginfo/racing_course_time.htm
they are reasonable i guess, although it is blatantly obvious from a cursory glance, that there are some big problems with them here and there.
not sure who is responsible for them though.

but you are right, they are thorough.
it is what every other racing jurisdiction in the world should strive to be.
i don't think it is any accident that all the countries that are thriving as far as racing goes are nearly all in asia.
and they all seem to realise that providing (accurate) and as much information as possible is a must.

[handyman1968]

I think you guys are confusing the Quinella with the Quinella Place which are 2 different bets. For Quinella Place your choices need to finish in the top 3 (i.e 1st n 2nd, or 1st n 3rd, or 2nd n 3rd).

Just an observation regarding racing integrity in Asia...in Japan, jockeys are sequestered 24hrs prior to race day...no phone, no communications to the outside world!!!

[olddaddy]

Just an observation regarding racing integrity in Asia...in Japan, jockeys are sequestered 24hrs prior to race day...no phone, no communications to the outside world!!!


Do you know what the purpose of that is?

[AltonKelsey]

Part of the reason their handle is so big is they offer a 10% rebate on losing wagers. So a lot of whales & betting syndicates are fine tossing a 1/2 a million a day through the machines & just breaking even on their bets. Breaking even would still net a 5 figure profit.
I'm convinced a lot of the late money is big players just trying to balance their bets so they will win or break even in any reasonable circumstances.

http://special.hkjc.com/racing/info/en/betting/guide_rebate.asp

:)

Give that man a gold star.

Thought : Considering the massive handle, HK could drop the takeout to something quite LOW, and still make a fat profit. It would be an interesting experiment.

[AltonKelsey]

Just playing Devils advocate here. but why should they offer the PP in the way we traditionally view them? Most of the planet views pps in a format that is more similar to theirs than ours.
The racing is somewhat different than ours in that they have huge fields, 12 to 14 normally so post position is more of a factor then it is here. They also have big weight shifts, that we haven't had since the 1950's. It's not uncommon to see a field with weights ranging form 113 to 133 lbs. With that big a spread it can & does affect the results.
Because they have a lot of turf racing, there are a lot of blanket finishes. I don't think our traditional figures would work as well there as they do here. Beyer even wrote about creating figures for Australia & the problems he encountered.
Even in something as straightforward as creating a daily variant, problems arise. Yesterday there was one 5F race, 4 6F races, 3 7F races & 2 mile races. Do you make one variant for the sprints & one for the routes? Do you treat the 7F races as short routes? Do you just toss the 5F race in creating your variant? I'm not sure there's any simple answer to this.
BTW the betting format is win & place (place also means show). They also offer quinellas & tris. They also offer a bet called the swinger which is two horses in the money.
It's interesting.

Why: To get North American players into the pools. The cost of reformatting the data for electronic delivery is trivial.

Speed Figs: I see no problem with making figs there for any competent player. Probably fewer issues there than at NYRA.

Here's something odd. Xpressbet was allowing access to the rolling double pools, but for some reason completely dropped it this season. Not enough handle?

[VigorsTheGrey]

I'd like to have that "Swinger Bet" here in the United States....The "Swinger Bet" apparently is won by picking 2 selections that both finish in the money, ie, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd....sounds fun!

[cj]

I'd like to have that "Swinger Bet" here in the United States....The "Swinger Bet" apparently is won by picking 2 selections that both finish in the money, ie, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd....sounds fun!

It wouldn't be a very good bet here in the US in my opinion given the field sizes we see routinely. I guess for big race days it might be OK, but based on current takeout and the payoffs I've seen overseas, no thanks. It would just be another high takeout bet that cannibalizes other pools.

Wasn't this proposed not too long ago and people quickly dubbed it the "inexacta"?

[VigorsTheGrey]

It wouldn't be a very good bet here in the US in my opinion given the field sizes we see routinely. I guess for big race days it might be OK, but based on current takeout and the payoffs I've seen overseas, no thanks. It would just be another high takeout bet that cannibalizes other pools.

Wasn't this proposed not too long ago and people quickly dubbed it the "inexacta"?

Yeah, i guess you are right...I keep forgetting that the whole purpose of racetracks is to move money from the wallets of racegoers INTO THEIRS...!

Everything else is there, clearly, just for show and entertainment, while this fleecing occurs over time...the longer you are there, and betting...the more fleecing you knowingly endure....boggles the mind, huh?

[EMD4ME]

Do you know what the purpose of that is?

I'd like to know as well.....Please do tell.

[Nitro]

Part of the reason their handle is so big is they offer a 10% rebate on losing wagers. So a lot of whales & betting syndicates are fine tossing a 1/2 a million a day through the machines & just breaking even on their bets. Breaking even would still net a 5 figure profit.
I'm convinced a lot of the late money is big players just trying to balance their bets so they will win or break even in any reasonable circumstances.
http://special.hkjc.com/racing/info/en/betting/guide_rebate.asp :) Give that man a gold star.
Don’t get too excited Alton!
There’s about as much speculation in Betovernet’s comment as those who might be doing as he suggested.

I can only add that when I play HK I carefully monitor all of the betting action in the mutual and quinnela pools. There is certainly late money activity from time to time. There is also unbalanced early money activity going on. To be perfectly honest the late money in the mutual (Win/Plc) pool has shown to be a 30/70 proposition at best when it comes to an entry winning a race. It becomes a bit more meaningful when there’s support in the quinella pool. In fact, I think the quinella pool on its own regarding late action can be more telling for at least a solid shot for an in-the-money performance.

This can be justified because as mentioned above HK offers a Quinella/Place bet which means that it covers the following results: 1st with 3rd and 2nd with 3rd. The true Quinella is still just the 1st and 2nd place finishers and certainly pays more than the Q/P bet. However, it still serves a good way of hedging your other betting.

With regard to Betovernet’s comment I believe that it’s not just late money. With the odds being what they are most of the time with large fields in HK I’m positive that there’s also a lot Win-Dutch betting going on with 3 and possibly even 4 entries (if the odds are right).

[ReplayRandall]

Don’t get too excited Alton!
There’s about as much speculation in Betovernet’s comment as those who might be doing as he suggested.

I can only add that when I play HK I carefully monitor all of the betting action in the mutual and quinnela pools. There is certainly late money activity from time to time. There is also unbalanced early money activity going on. To be perfectly honest the late money in the mutual (Win/Plc) pool has shown to be a 30/70 proposition at best when it comes to an entry winning a race. It becomes a bit more meaningful when there’s support in the quinella pool. In fact, I think the quinella pool on its own regarding late action can be more telling for at least a solid shot for an in-the-money performance.

This can be justified because as mentioned above HK offers a Quinella/Place bet which means that it covers the following results: 1st with 3rd and 2nd with 3rd. The true Quinella is still just the 1st and 2nd place finishers and certainly pays more than the Q/P bet. However, it still serves a good way of hedging your other betting.

With regard to Betovernet’s comment I believe that it’s not just late money. With the odds being what they are most of the time with large fields in HK I’m positive that there’s also a lot Win-Dutch betting going on with 3 and possibly even 4 entries (if the odds are right).

Good post, Nitro...:ThmbUp:

[handyman1968]

Do you know what the purpose of that is?

It's about inside information, tips for cash, etc. Sort of like insider trading. I don't know about Japan but it's a crime in Hong Kong for jockeys to engage in tips for cash, just ask Chris Munce. It all comes down to transparency I guess.

I've also mentioned this several times on here about late money coming in HK racing. A lot of it is from illegal bookies trying to balance their books. HKJC thinks that the illegal bookies turnover is just as big as theirs if not more, especially bets coming from China. One of the main reasons illegal bookie exist in HK is because of fixed odds...HKJC is pari-mutual only except for the Jockey Challenge.

[betovernetcapper]

With the odds being what they are most of the time with large fields in HK I’m positive that there’s also a lot Win-Dutch betting going on with 3 and possibly even 4 entries (if the odds are right).


Um er,, that's what the term balanced book implies.
From the Bloodhorse

"Dick Powell, of Racing and Gaming Services, which caters to CRW bettors, said large rebates on CRW handle make the business model of the CRW player possible. He noted that many CRW players try to break even on their wagering, and then make their money on rebates. Linnell's study indicates CRW players are doing better than breaking-even on their wagers."

For full article see
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/210142/crw-players-negatively-impacting-payouts

[betovernetcapper]

DRF is holding a webinar on using the new HK pps tomorrow.

https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/5751145479844528386