Sword Dancer - Where's the Investigation/Outrage?

[menifee]

I just watched the replay of the Sword Dancer again. When I watched the race live, I was focused on the 5 horse. He was the rabbit that missed the break, went blazing fractions and then took out a few horses so Flintshire could get a clean trip up the rail.

I watched the replay again and focused on Money Multiplier. Heading for the far turn, he is in a perfect spot sitting behind the speed. Irad suddenly pulls MM up and to the right suddenly (essentially stands up) and allows Flintshire the spot - costing MM any chance of winning the race. In essence, he threw the race.

MM was 5-1 and was deliberately not trying to win the race either (same with rabbit). Both the rabbit's jockey and Irad were not only not trying to win the race, they actually took actions in the race that put other horses, their mounts, and jockeys at risk of injury.

This should not be allowed. First of all Flintshire really does not need the help. Second, there is wagering here and you are ripping off the public if your jockey is not actively trying to win the race. Third, you are creating a safety issue by doing this stuff.

[TonyK@HSH]

From the perspective of someone else who wagered on MM I have to respectfully disagree. I feel that Irad found himself behind the leaders approaching the 1/4 pole and had to make a choice. Either stay down and hope for a hole to open or swing outside the leaders. Irad knew who was behind him and wanted to get first run at the lead. Irad choose the outside path. The change of lanes was not smooth, but I personally suspected no foul play.
Unfortunately for Irad, Flintshire found a sizeable hole on the rail. Hats of to Castellano!!

TonyK

[EMD4ME]

Where's the outrage when these unofficial entries had somewhat similar coincidences during tons of races on the inner track the last 2 years? Substitute the chad brown runners in the race with irad , Jose and cornelio/angel/Eric .

You all called me nuts and crazy. Glad some of you finally lived some of the bullshit these kids are a part of. Granted this one was of true trainer instruction but a script is a script.

The 2nd poster in this thread gave plausible deniability. Unfortunately that's all these guys need to complete their tasks. And who am I kidding, besides a few sharpies. No one else is noticing. Especially not the 3 blind mice upstairs.

[bobphilo]

I just watched the replay of the Sword Dancer again. When I watched the race live, I was focused on the 5 horse. He was the rabbit that missed the break, went blazing fractions and then took out a few horses so Flintshire could get a clean trip up the rail.

I watched the replay again and focused on Money Multiplier. Heading for the far turn, he is in a perfect spot sitting behind the speed. Irad suddenly pulls MM up and to the right suddenly (essentially stands up) and allows Flintshire the spot - costing MM any chance of winning the race. In essence, he threw the race.

MM was 5-1 and was deliberately not trying to win the race either (same with rabbit). Both the rabbit's jockey and Irad were not only not trying to win the race, they actually took actions in the race that put other horses, their mounts, and jockeys at risk of injury.

This should not be allowed. First of all Flintshire really does not need the help. Second, there is wagering here and you are ripping off the public if your jockey is not actively trying to win the race. Third, you are creating a safety issue by doing this stuff.
I agree. The Travers is another example. Bejarano deliberately took American Freedom 6-wide out if the gate to block other horses so his stablemate, Arrogate, would not be challenged for the lead.
I used to run track in college and the use of such tactics to help a teammate would result in disqualification whether in a local meet or the Olympics. This "race riding" BS makes racing look like a roller derby.

[Big Peps]

There have been a ton of head scratchers at Saratoga this summer, the super trainers, the issues with the starters, etc. Not a good look. The sword dancer was a joke, funny that Irad wasn't on a Chad Brown horse but played a big part there too. Sure you can always throw lipstick on a pig and justify but it definitely leaves one scratching their head..

[outofthebox]

I agree. The Travers is another example. Bejarano deliberately took American Freedom 6-wide out if the gate to block other horses so his stablemate, Arrogate, would not be challenged for the lead.
I used to run track in college and the use of such tactics to help a teammate would result in disqualification whether in a local meet or the Olympics. This "race riding" BS makes racing look like a roller derby.Yes, he was riding to instructions. Baffert wanted Arrogate on the lead. Baffert used the same tactics in the 2014 Awesome Again with his entry against Shared Belief. It almost paid off. People criticized Espinosa for herding Shared Belief that day, but he was following BB instructions. Espinosa also did this with California Chrome in the Pac Classic, and it definitely worked there, as Stevens and Bejarano grabbed their horses and looked at each other the first 1/2 mile wondering who was going to challenge Chrome for the lead. Neither did.

[the little guy]

Money Multiplier got a poor ride, no doubt, but how that is suddenly considered "deliberately trying not to win" is beyond me.

I guess this is another example of one man's paranoia having a negative affect on others.

[bobphilo]

Yes, he was riding to instructions. Baffert wanted Arrogate on the lead. Baffert used the same tactics in the 2014 Awesome Again with his entry against Shared Belief. It almost paid off. People criticized Espinosa for herding Shared Belief that day, but he was following BB instructions. Espinosa also did this with California Chrome in the Pac Classic, and it definitely worked there, as Stevens and Bejarano grabbed their horses and looked at each other the first 1/2 mile wondering who was going to challenge Chrome for the lead. Neither did.
Fortunately, Espinoza was suspended for his disgraceful ride in the Awesome Again. Unfortunately these tactics usually go unpunished, encouraging more of the same.

[cj]

Fortunately, Espinoza was suspended for his disgraceful ride in the Awesome Again. Unfortunately these tactics usually go unpunished, encouraging more of the same.

Espinoza was not trying to win the race with his horse. Can we say the same about Bejarano? I'm not sure in this case.

[Fager Fan]

Where's the outrage when these unofficial entries had somewhat similar coincidences during tons of races on the inner track the last 2 years? Substitute the chad brown runners in the race with irad , Jose and cornelio/angel/Eric .

You all called me nuts and crazy. Glad some of you finally lived some of the bullshit these kids are a part of. Granted this one was of true trainer instruction but a script is a script.

The 2nd poster in this thread gave plausible deniability. Unfortunately that's all these guys need to complete their tasks. And who am I kidding, besides a few sharpies. No one else is noticing. Especially not the 3 blind mice upstairs.

It does seem to be more and more commonplace. The Sword Dancer was obvious. A rider trying to win the race would never deliberately give up the path th way the winner's stablemate did.

I don't think coupling solves the problem. That may protect the naive bettor on the rabbit but it does nothing to the trainer and owner to stop them from pulling the shenanigans. The consequences have to hit those two.

How about knocking down the helped stablemate to last? And a large fine and suspension for the jockey and trainer? We can't allow the jockeys to be beholden to their trainer's wishes just to keep their jobs.

[cj]

It does seem to be more and more commonplace. The Sword Dancer was obvious. A rider trying to win the race would never deliberately give up the path th way the winner's stablemate did.

I don't think coupling solves the problem. That may protect the naive bettor on the rabbit but it does nothing to the trainer and owner to stop them from pulling the shenanigans. The consequences have to hit those two.

How about knocking down the helped stablemate to last? And a large fine and suspension for the jockey and trainer? We can't allow the jockeys to be beholden to their trainer's wishes just to keep their jobs.

To be fair, I see plenty of horses moving out the way when they are spent for other horses. It drives me crazy but it is pretty commonplace. What we don't see is them moving out sharply and banging into other horses.

As for consequences...this was discussed in another thread. If horses are coupled and one half of the entry commits a foul that helps the other, both can be DQed.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

I find myself questioning rides too, but unfortunately I will never be able to "walk in a mile in their shoes". I have never been a jock nor will I ever be, so questioning split second decisions on rides doesnt help. Like Andy said, it was a poor ride, but I cant imagine Irad wasnt trying to win the race. Add to that, Saratoga and NYRA racing in general is under a microscope on a daily basis. I just cant see it.

As far as the rabbit goes, we know why they are in there. Coupling would protect the bettor, but at the same time it has been hard to fill many of these graded stakes races, so would it make sense to have a short field with several coupled?

The nice thing with horse racing is the next day presents new opportunities. If you have that much of a problem, speak with your wallet. Complaining on a message board doesnt have the same impact.

[Grits]

The nice thing with horse racing is the next day presents new opportunities. If you have that much of a problem, speak with your wallet. Complaining on a message board doesnt have the same impact.

Well stated. The wisest words I've read, whether here, twitter, blogs, or elsewhere. .... Nothing anyone wrote after the race, nothing anyone writes going forward is going to change the order of finish of this race. They've crossed the wire. It's done. We're into the last week of Saratoga. Enjoy it, or take time off.

[Grits]

On a side note. Speaking of Flintshire, who I absolutely love. If you have a FB account, go to TVG's page, and take a look at the 20 second video of him. ..... He is so kind, so gentle, (even in his eyes) eating an apple out of one of Chad's groom's hands. One wrong bite, and the groom could have multiple broken fingers, but no, not with this fella. He's amazing!

[Fager Fan]

To be fair, I see plenty of horses moving out the way when they are spent for other horses. It drives me crazy but it is pretty commonplace. What we don't see is them moving out sharply and banging into other horses.

As for consequences...this was discussed in another thread. If horses are coupled and one half of the entry commits a foul that helps the other, both can be DQed.

Unless I was seeing things, I could've sworn the jockey looked over his shoulder to find his stablemate then moved out, so don't really think this is comparable to other circumstances for that reason.

But getting a spent horse out of the way of others brings up the issue of how safe it is to allow these rabbits/stablemates to go out and run on or near the front, knowing they're going to spend their horse, and then the ones behind them have to get out of his way or be in jeopardy of clipping heels and worse.

I don't know if the punishment should just be levied for a foul. While we may all know that horses sometimes have to be raced into shape or a trainer maybe has to race in a spot because he can't get the spot he wants, at the upper level at least, the horses should all be in there to win, so I'd make the punishment for not riding to win or finish as well as possible.

[Fager Fan]

Well stated. The wisest words I've read, whether here, twitter, blogs, or elsewhere. .... Nothing anyone wrote after the race, nothing anyone writes going forward is going to change the order of finish of this race. They've crossed the wire. It's done. We're into the last week of Saratoga. Enjoy it, or take time off.

Shutting up isn't a very effective way to make changes.

[Fager Fan]

On a side note. Speaking of Flintshire, who I absolutely love. If you have a FB account, go to TVG's page, and take a look at the 20 second video of him. ..... He is so kind, so gentle, (even in his eyes) eating an apple out of one of Chad's groom's hands. One wrong bite, and the groom could have multiple broken fingers, but no, not with this fella. He's amazing!

No offense, but come on. It's a rare horse that you have to worry you'd lose a finger to feeding them an apple. I like the horse, and maybe he's got a kind personality, but the idea that this was some dangerous scenario that could only be pulled off safely by such an "amazing" horse is over the top.

[castaway01]

Unless I was seeing things, I could've sworn the jockey looked over his shoulder to find his stablemate then moved out, so don't really think this is comparable to other circumstances for that reason.



Whether you think the rabbit for the favorite should move out of the way for that favorite or not (and it appears most here don't), don't you think that it's likely he looked over his shoulder because he heard someone screaming "coming through" and he was trying to move his fried horse out of the way not to get killed?

[PaceAdvantage]

No offense, but come on. It's a rare horse that you have to worry you'd lose a finger to feeding them an apple. I like the horse, and maybe he's got a kind personality, but the idea that this was some dangerous scenario that could only be pulled off safely by such an "amazing" horse is over the top.Well:

a) she never said you'd lose a finger.
b) i've been in the shedrow with horses like Invasor who took just a lightning fast nip at someone's arm that left the nastiest of bruises for days
c) i've been around some other nutty horses that would spook at anything.

So, I get it...you like to bump heads with Grits (unless I'm confusing you with someone else)...this time it looks ultra petty of you.

[Fager Fan]

Whether you think the rabbit for the favorite should move out of the way for that favorite or not (and it appears most here don't), don't you think that it's likely he looked over his shoulder because he heard someone screaming "coming through" and he was trying to move his fried horse out of the way not to get killed?

No, I don't. Is there any indication that happened?

Besides, the other horse isn't "coming through" if he has no were to go through, and the chances are far greater that the horse behind is going to take the worst of it if he hits someone from behind than the one who was hit.

[bobphilo]

Espinoza was not trying to win the race with his horse. Can we say the same about Bejarano? I'm not sure in this case.
Actually it seemed he was trying to insure a 1-2 finish with his stablemate. He still hindered those behind him. Some would call it race riding but calling it race riding doesn't make it right.

[Fager Fan]

Well:

a) she never said you'd lose a finger.
b) i've been in the shedrow with horses like Invasor who took just a lightning fast nip at someone's arm that left the nastiest of bruises for days
c) i've been around some other nutty horses that would spook at anything.

So, I get it...you like to bump heads with Grits (unless I'm confusing you with someone else)...this time it looks ultra petty of you.

No, she said break several fingers which is equally extreme. It was over the top and makes it seem like feeding an apple to a horse is a dangerous activity and it's not.

Spooking, nipping at an arm, and other reactions to stimuli are different than the reaction to the stimuli of being fed a treat. A mean horse can be a kitty cat when it's being fed a treat, and a very nice horse can be easily spooked.

[bobphilo]

Well:

a) she never said you'd lose a finger.
b) i've been in the shedrow with horses like Invasor who took just a lightning fast nip at someone's arm that left the nastiest of bruises for days
c) i've been around some other nutty horses that would spook at anything.

So, I get it...you like to bump heads with Grits (unless I'm confusing you with someone else)...this time it looks ultra petty of you.

So true. There were some of my trainer's horses where you took your life into your hands every time you entered their stall. John Henry and Forego struck terror into the hearts of those that had to deal with them. Being a groom is a dangerous job though the nice ones do make it all worthwhile.

Racing T-breds are the only breed of horses where temperament is a zero factor in breeding. As long as they're fast they can pass on their psychotic behavior to future generations.

[Fager Fan]

So true. There were some of my trainer's horses where you took your life into your hands every time you entered their stall. John Henry and Forego struck terror into the hearts of those that had to deal with them. Being a groom is a dangerous job though the nice ones do make it all worthwhile.

Racing T-breds are the only breed of horses where temperament is a zero factor in breeding. As long as they're fast they can pass on their psychotic behavior to future generations.

Those are the exceptions. This is exactly what I object to, furthering the notion that TBs are these highly dangerous horses. That's why they have such a hard time being adopted to other careers.

Dealing with most any horse can have its dangers, and yes, TBs are hotter than some other breeds, but most TBs are perfectly safe to interact with and to feed treats.

[outofthebox]

So true. There were some of my trainer's horses where you took your life into your hands every time you entered their stall. John Henry and Forego struck terror into the hearts of those that had to deal with them. Being a groom is a dangerous job though the nice ones do make it all worthwhile.

Racing T-breds are the only breed of horses where temperament is a zero factor in breeding. As long as they're fast they can pass on their psychotic behavior to future generations.I've worked on the track for 35 years, and only one horse put the fear into me every day i was with him. That was Dynaformer. I only groomed him when he was a 2yo. I was happy when he left our barn. I use to hot walk his dam Andover Way, and she was the sweetest thing ever. Don't know where Dynaformer got his mean streak from.

[bobphilo]

Those are the exceptions. This is exactly what I object to, furthering the notion that TBs are these highly dangerous horses. That's why they have such a hard time being adopted to other careers.

Dealing with most any horse can have its dangers, and yes, TBs are hotter than some other breeds, but most TBs are perfectly safe to interact with and to feed treats.
These are not so much the exceptions that you believe. True there are many that are real sweethearts and I loved working with them. However when you have an industry that does not try to keep the crazy ones from breeding because they're fast, it will spread throughout the gene pool.

[menifee]

Money Multiplier got a poor ride, no doubt, but how that is suddenly considered "deliberately trying not to win" is beyond me.

I guess this is another example of one man's paranoia having a negative affect on others.

Mike Beer and Dan Illman have the same questions I have in their review of the race.

http://video.drf.com

[Grits]

I've worked on the track for 35 years, and only one horse put the fear into me every day i was with him. That was Dynaformer. I only groomed him when he was a 2yo. I was happy when he left our barn. I use to hot walk his dam Andover Way, and she was the sweetest thing ever. Don't know where Dynaformer got his mean streak from.

Off topic, I know, but still. Bless your heart, Box! I visited him at T.Chim. His reputation, notoriously tough, right up until the day he died. I remember when he passed.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/129966/renowned-international-sire-dynaformer-dies

After suffering the significant cardiac episode two weeks ago, Dynaformer was immediately pensioned from stallion duty. After Dynaformer had been stabilized, an ultrasound performed on April 15 revealed several holes in his heart as a result of the heart attack, one measuring eight centimeters long and two others measuring two centimeters each.

"Dynaformer told us when it was his time to go," said Dr. Jim Morehead, Three Chimneys' resident veterinarian. "Amazingly, he had been comfortable after his initial crisis on April 14 and had been able to go to his paddock daily. A normal horse would not have survived his initial cardiac episode. He did everything on his terms, including deciding when he'd had enough."

[bobphilo]

I've worked on the track for 35 years, and only one horse put the fear into me every day i was with him. That was Dynaformer. I only groomed him when he was a 2yo. I was happy when he left our barn. I use to hot walk his dam Andover Way, and she was the sweetest thing ever. Don't know where Dynaformer got his mean streak from.

I respect your experience. Guess we had somewhat different experiences with different horses. I loved working with lots of my horses. Some of the young fillies were real sweethearts. However, there are also a lot of bad tempered ones not only with me but with other grooms since their is no selection for temperament in breeding race horses. Of course that doesn't mean that they are all or even mostly bad.

[ReplayRandall]

I've worked on the track for 35 years, and only one horse put the fear into me every day i was with him. That was Dynaformer. I only groomed him when he was a 2yo. I was happy when he left our barn. I use to hot walk his dam Andover Way, and she was the sweetest thing ever. Don't know where Dynaformer got his mean streak from.

Dynaformer got his mean streak from his sire, Roberto.

"Roberto stood 16.1-1/2 hands. He was plain and workmanlike although well-made. He could handle any kind of footing but was moody and not always willing to give his best, reflecting the temperament of his dam Bramalea. He had a long, low stride and was a good mover but had rather suspect knees and was not at his best in soft going although he won on it. As a stallion, he apparently had his fair share of the nasty temper often seen in members of his sire line."- Avalyn Hunter

[cj]

http://crunktrunk.tumblr.com/post/149756349063/race-fixing-for-me-but-not-for-thee

Interesting takes...

Also, didn't know this. Stewards asleep at the wheel or don't care.

http://66.media.tumblr.com/0c3f310f4ad380baf22f16ea6cfed81e/tumblr_inline_ocsen5z8iN1rag3qy_500.png

[johnhannibalsmith]

...
Stewards asleep at the wheel or don't care.

...

Wouldn't they have had to decided that Inordinate should have been DQ'ed for affecting Roman Approval's chances for it to have even mattered?

[cj]

Wouldn't they have had to decided that Inordinate should have been DQ'ed for affecting Roman Approval's chances for it to have even mattered?

Possible, but really gets into gray area and judgement calls there. I'm not sure how bull dozing your way out to open a lane for the other horse falls.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Possible, but really gets into gray area and judgement calls there. I'm not sure how bull dozing your way out to open a lane for the other horse falls.

The way that I read it is that if they had felt that the alleged foul against Roman Approval had affected that one (or any other in the race) from finishing ahead of the other uncoupled entrant (in this case Flintshire), then they could also DQ Flintshire in addition to Inordinate. So, I'd guess that bulldozing your way out requires costing the fouled horse(s) a legitimate chance to outfinish Flintshire in order to take down Flintshire.

[cj]

The way that I read it is that if they had felt that the alleged foul against Roman Approval had affected that one (or any other in the race) from finishing ahead of the other uncoupled entrant (in this case Flintshire), then they could also DQ Flintshire in addition to Inordinate. So, I'd guess that bulldozing your way out requires costing the fouled horse(s) a legitimate chance to outfinish Flintshire in order to take down Flintshire.

I agree. In this case they didn't even disqualify the rabbit so I have no faith they would ever implement the "other entry" rule anyway.

[SuperPickle]

This thread kind of brings something up which a theme of a lot of threads around here. Personally responsibility.

First, off that being said the Stewards/NYRA made a mess of this by not coupling the horses. There's no way a horse should be entered in a race with the sole purpose to assist another horse and not be coupled. It's obscene. It's wrong.

That being said we all knew the situation three days before the race. Chad Brown had a 1-9 shot. Chad Brown had a billion to one shot in as a rabbit. Chad Brown had the second best horse in the race.

I honestly think if you bet this race as a stand along race (i.e. not pick 3/4) you took the short bus to the track. The race was a sh!tshow. But that being said if you knowingly participated it in you're kind of a fool.

It's like the thread about the nickel and the teller. I totally concur that lots of on track, unionized tellers behave horrendously. The problem should continue to be addressed and improved. But in the last 20 years we've invented ADW's and self service machines. So on some level I feel if you're walking up to a window you kind of get what you deserved.

And I think if you bet the Sword Dancer you kind of got what you deserved. It's hard to be sympathetic.

[cj]

This thread kind of brings something up which a theme of a lot of threads around here. Personally responsibility.

First, off that being said the Stewards/NYRA made a mess of this by not coupling the horses. There's no way a horse should be entered in a race with the sole purpose to assist another horse and not be coupled. It's obscene. It's wrong.

Sadly, they didn't even know there was a "rabbit" in the race!

That being said we all knew the situation three days before the race. Chad Brown had a 1-9 shot. Chad Brown had a billion to one shot in as a rabbit. Chad Brown had the second best horse in the race.

I honestly think if you bet this race as a stand along race (i.e. not pick 3/4) you took the short bus to the track. The race was a sh!tshow. But that being said if you knowingly participated it in you're kind of a fool.

I know plenty of people that didn't know one of the horses was a rabbit three days beforehand, myself included. I didn't pay much attention to the race because I didn't see any way Flintshire would lose. Once I looked closely on Saturday it was obvious why the horse was in the race. Still, I think the people betting $5 or $10 deserve protection too. The horse had over 200k bet across various pools. That shouldn't have been allowed to happen.

It's like the thread about the nickel and the teller. I totally concur that lots of on track, unionized tellers behave horrendously. The problem should continue to be addressed and improved. But in the last 20 years we've invented ADW's and self service machines. So on some level I feel if you're walking up to a window you kind of get what you deserved.

And I think if you bet the Sword Dancer you kind of got what you deserved. It's hard to be sympathetic.

There are times at the track where the teller is the best option. Wireless signals aren't always great and betting at machines can be a crapshoot. They aren't that reliable and if you get stuck behind an idiot, you're screwed. You can always bet early, but often times you wind up betting horses at bad odds if you bet too soon.

That said, I know what I'm getting into when I go to the track and plan ahead. I generally bet through ADW. Just saying problems do arise.

[cj]

Here is an example...

if one of the slots on the roulette wheel was filled with led for all to see, would the Casino Commission allow betting on that number and say "buyer beware"? No way in hell. The stewards are supposed to be our casino commission, but they usually let us down.

[menifee]

This thread kind of brings something up which a theme of a lot of threads around here. Personally responsibility.

First, off that being said the Stewards/NYRA made a mess of this by not coupling the horses. There's no way a horse should be entered in a race with the sole purpose to assist another horse and not be coupled. It's obscene. It's wrong.

That being said we all knew the situation three days before the race. Chad Brown had a 1-9 shot. Chad Brown had a billion to one shot in as a rabbit. Chad Brown had the second best horse in the race.

I honestly think if you bet this race as a stand along race (i.e. not pick 3/4) you took the short bus to the track. The race was a sh!tshow. But that being said if you knowingly participated it in you're kind of a fool.

It's like the thread about the nickel and the teller. I totally concur that lots of on track, unionized tellers behave horrendously. The problem should continue to be addressed and improved. But in the last 20 years we've invented ADW's and self service machines. So on some level I feel if you're walking up to a window you kind of get what you deserved.

And I think if you bet the Sword Dancer you kind of got what you deserved. It's hard to be sympathetic.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I was at the track on Saturday. There are a lot of new fans, families and young people betting the races for the first time that don't really understand what was happening there. It does not present the game well when things like this happen. I don't have an issue with the rabbit being entered. I don't even care if they are coupled or uncoupled. My problem is with the rabbit acting like a bulldozer on the top of the stretch to clear a path for his entry mate. That was dangerous. Perhaps, reasonable people can disagree about Irad Ortiz ride, but it seemed to me that he was not giving his mount the best chance to win intentionally.

[bobphilo]

http://crunktrunk.tumblr.com/post/149756349063/race-fixing-for-me-but-not-for-thee

Interesting takes...

Also, didn't know this. Stewards asleep at the wheel or don't care.

http://66.media.tumblr.com/0c3f310f4ad380baf22f16ea6cfed81e/tumblr_inline_ocsen5z8iN1rag3qy_500.png

According to the rules it appears it's only a foul if the horse interfered with was prevented from beating the stablemate. Hell, nobody was going to beat Flintshire that day. Does that mean the jock can pull anything with impunity. I don't like the fact that the stewards are supposed to play psychics as to the results of a foul. Seems like a foul is a foul in every sport except racing.

[cj]

With the way the pace is in these turf races usually (see today's 9th as example 4,652) at NYRA, they might want to consider buying a stable of house rabbits.

[Grits]

I was at the track on Saturday. There are a lot of new fans, families and young people betting the races for the first time that don't really understand what was happening there.

Obviously, we saw the same. Too, they went nuts when their 1-9 pick won!!

I use the machines all the time. Hardly ever go to the tellers to bet. All day Saturday, I was caught behind a slew of young--men betting, women betting, or couples betting--who didn't know how to use the machines, and too, didn't know how to handicap. Worst of all, they thumbed through the entries sipping their beer while trying to wager. :faint: Travers Day is not a good day to decide, for the first time,"oh, let's use the machines."

[Lemon Drop Husker]

So let me get this straight.

People are outraged and looking for a disqualification because a single horse helped another to get some room for a possible win if he was good enough, while 4 of the other 5 entries were doing their best to pin Flintshire to the rail and keep him from winning?

4 vs 1? Fair

2 vs 4? Unfair

Is this what we are saying?

[cj]

So let me get this straight.

People are outraged and looking for a disqualification because a single horse helped another to get some room for a possible win if he was good enough, while 4 of the other 5 entries were doing their best to pin Flintshire to the rail and keep him from winning?

4 vs 1? Fair

2 vs 4? Unfair

Is this what we are saying?

Plenty of people complained about those tactics in the last race he won. In this one the jockey chose that route again. He had ample oppotunity to go outside. I wonder why he went inside here? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[EMD4ME]

Plenty of people complained about those tactics in the last race he won. In this one the jockey chose that route again. He had ample oppotunity to go outside. I wonder why he went inside here? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Chee Watson, I wonder too !!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

He is SO lucky that never give up, true sportsman, Irad Ortiz decided to check and go wide. Whew....for Flinthsire fans :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Fager Fan]

So let me get this straight.

People are outraged and looking for a disqualification because a single horse helped another to get some room for a possible win if he was good enough, while 4 of the other 5 entries were doing their best to pin Flintshire to the rail and keep him from winning?

4 vs 1? Fair

2 vs 4? Unfair

Is this what we are saying?

If carrying a horse wide or trying t keep him pinned on the rail is what that rider and horse are doing in an attempt to win, then it's fair. He'd have to go wid himself to carry a horse wide, and can only keep the horse pinned until such point where he needs to run for the lead, at which point the other becomes unpinned too.

If a horse were to do either of those things to aid a stablemate, then it's wrong.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Chee Watson, I wonder too !!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

He is SO lucky that never give up, true sportsman, Irad Ortiz decided to check and go wide. Whew....for Flinthsire fans :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I like Flintshire. Think he is obviously a pretty damn good horse. "Fan"?

Still, my whole point remains the same.

We require "race riding" as a pre-requisite for jockeys to be smart or dumb in their riding.

Again, you accept race riding as an excuse to keep Flintshire at the rail and the jockey being stupid to pin himself there. The connections responded because they knew what would happen after the BS that was the Bowling Green and put another horse in the field to give Flintshire an out if the horses and connections tried the same BS tactics.

Like I said.

4 vs 1. Fair

2 vs 4. Unfair

How is race riding in either circumstance better than the other?

[EMD4ME]

If carrying a horse wide or trying t keep him pinned on the rail is what that rider and horse are doing in an attempt to win, then it's fair. He'd have to go wid himself to carry a horse wide, and can only keep the horse pinned until such point where he needs to run for the lead, at which point the other becomes unpinned too.

If a horse were to do either of those things to aid a stablemate, then it's wrong.

What about the ride MM received?

All these posts and no one has stated that Irad looked back for Flintshire at

The 1 Mile pole

1/2 Mile pole

and after he made room for him because the plan was for the 5 to drift on the far turn, the 3/8 pole.

They're all guilty of carrying out a script.

To be honest, I don't care about Aaron giving up his horse for Flintshire. Anyone with any experience in this game could've fathomed that happening AS HE WAS THE WEAKEST of a 3 horse uncoupled entry.

BUT....those expecting MM to get an honest run should be pissed. There is no way Irad was riding to win.

Here's where I will burst anyone's response of: EMD, you just hate Irad.

I DON'T BLAME IRAD. I blame Chad Brown for orchestrating Saturday's 10th race script.

Irad in this case, probably just followed orders.

If the stewards really cared and had 5 brain cells, they should've disqualified both the rabbit, MM and Flintshire as a punishment for the script and checks/peculiar path changes.

That race was as scripted as many races that I have screamed about on here in the past.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

If carrying a horse wide or trying t keep him pinned on the rail is what that rider and horse are doing in an attempt to win, then it's fair. He'd have to go wid himself to carry a horse wide, and can only keep the horse pinned until such point where he needs to run for the lead, at which point the other becomes unpinned too.

If a horse were to do either of those things to aid a stablemate, then it's wrong.

When you have 3 to 4 other horses pinning a horse at the rail, do you feel that is a fair race? Especially when you can visually see how egregiously they are doing that very task?

Sorry, but at some point in time, shouldn't we want to have the best horse win?

This isn't a $5K claimer at Evangeline Downs. This is a G1 turf race at Saratoga supposedly pitting the very best against the very best, and you are trying to make an argument for strong arm tactics so lesser horses can win?

[EMD4ME]

I like Flintshire. Think he is obviously a pretty damn good horse. "Fan"?

Still, my whole point remains the same.

We require "race riding" as a pre-requisite for jockeys to be smart or dumb in their riding.

Again, you accept race riding as an excuse to keep Flintshire at the rail and the jockey being stupid to pin himself there. The connections responded because they knew what would happen after the BS that was the Bowling Green and put another horse in the field to give Flintshire an out if the horses and connections tried the same BS tactics.

Like I said.

4 vs 1. Fair

2 vs 4. Unfair

How is race riding in either circumstance better than the other?

LDH, I'm a fan of Flintshire as well. We've seen it all (people on PA). No surprise a rabbit was entered and did his job. After the Bowling Green, I don't blame them. I really don't. I'm not ashamed to admit, I bet a 6-2 cold exacta and got my 5.90. However, I am a fan of integrity 1st. I am equally as pissed that Irad gave up the winning spot (due to their preplanned script-can't literally blame him) as I am at Aaron for riding dangerously to smash other foes (to complete his mission).

It was repulsive watching.

I feel like I made 390 bucks on a WWE match. Felt dirty knowing I bet on a scripted outcome.

[rsetup]

Horse had a garden, suckup inside trip as a result of the 'pinning'.
Then had the pleasure of a clear outside last run.

[cj]

I like Flintshire. Think he is obviously a pretty damn good horse. "Fan"?

Still, my whole point remains the same.

We require "race riding" as a pre-requisite for jockeys to be smart or dumb in their riding.

Again, you accept race riding as an excuse to keep Flintshire at the rail and the jockey being stupid to pin himself there. The connections responded because they knew what would happen after the BS that was the Bowling Green and put another horse in the field to give Flintshire an out if the horses and connections tried the same BS tactics.

Like I said.

4 vs 1. Fair

2 vs 4. Unfair

How is race riding in either circumstance better than the other?

Problem with that is nobody ever said the 4 vs 1 was fair that I've seen.

[EMD4ME]

Problem with that is nobody ever said the 4 vs 1 was fair that I've seen.

Hate to be the annoying 1 but it was 3 vs.1 ..not that it matters. Carry on :D


Edit: My bad. I thought LDH was discussing (as his 4 vs. 1) the Bowling Green race where 2 out of 4 total horses (1 innocent horse & rider) race rode Flintshire the whole way. He's referring to the 4 uncoupled entries in the 8/27 race.

[cj]

Hate to be the annoying 1 but it was 3 vs.1 ..not that it matters. Carry on :D

I know that...Didn't want to be the internet police. 😃

[Lemon Drop Husker]

LDH, I'm a fan of Flintshire as well. We've seen it all (people on PA). No surprise a rabbit was entered and did his job. After the Bowling Green, I don't blame them. I really don't. I'm not ashamed to admit, I bet a 6-2 cold exacta and got my 5.90. However, I am a fan of integrity 1st. I am equally as pissed that Irad gave up the winning spot (due to their preplanned script-can't literally blame him) as I am at Aaron for riding dangerously to smash other foes (to complete his mission).

It was repulsive watching.

I feel like I made 390 bucks on a WWE match. Felt dirty knowing I bet on a scripted outcome.

Scripted or not.

The only bet to be made was :6::2: straight. The rest of the field is G3 level at best, and likely even OC $40K type horses.

I skipped the race after watching the complete BS that was the Bowling Green and then seeing the same horses and connections involved.

Even with a rabbit, you aren't guaranteed anything. Too much risk for such little reward IMO. :ThmbUp: you made a decent return.

[EMD4ME]

Scripted or not.

The only bet to be made was :6::2: straight. The rest of the field is G3 level at best, and likely even OC $40K type horses.

I skipped the race after watching the complete BS that was the Bowling Green and then seeing the same horses and connections involved.

Even with a rabbit, you aren't guaranteed anything. Too much risk for such little reward IMO. :ThmbUp: you made a decent return.

If Irad stayed on the rail and took his time getting really clear (into the lane) I think he has a shot to beat Flintshire (with those trips).

The interruption of integrity and tactics puts a bad taste in my mouth. Again, I don't care if the rabbit sacrificed himself. It's sacrificing ( getting out of Flintshire's way) MM that bothers me.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Hate to be the annoying 1 but it was 3 vs.1 ..not that it matters. Carry on :D


Edit: My bad. I thought LDH was discussing (as his 4 vs. 1) the Bowling Green race where 2 out of 4 total horses (1 innocent horse & rider) race rode Flintshire the whole way. He's referring to the 4 uncoupled entries in the 8/27 race.

Yep.

3 vs 1 in BG.

Possible 4 vs 1 in SD.

We know the rabbit. MM is who knows what, but the other 4 weren't in it to win it. Right?

I don't know. So confusing. :bang::D

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Problem with that is nobody ever said the 4 vs 1 was fair that I've seen.

I know that.

But you are inherently accepting it by complaining about a rabbit "giving" Flintshire the rail in the stretch while not complaining about 4 other horses race riding and looking to box in Flintshire for the entire race to keep him from winning.

Why no complaints about a number of horses looking to pin Flintshire to the rail? Your only complaint is a single horse giving Flintshire a chance to win if he was good enough.

[EMD4ME]

Yep.

3 vs 1 in BG.

Possible 4 vs 1 in SD.

We know the rabbit. MM is who knows what, but the other 4 weren't in it to win it. Right?

I don't know. So confusing. :bang::D

I think the other 4 (non chad brown team) would win if they could but rode for their best placing or check.

[EMD4ME]

I know that.

But you are inherently accepting it by complaining about a rabbit "giving" Flintshire the rail in the stretch while not complaining about 4 other horses race riding and looking to box in Flintshire for the entire race to keep him from winning.

Why no complaints about a number of horses looking to pin Flintshire to the rail? Your only complaint is a single horse giving Flintshire a chance to win if he was good enough.

Wait pal. Don't mind me. What race are you talking about? The BG or the 8/27 race?

[Lemon Drop Husker]

I think the other 4 (non chad brown team) would win if they could but rode for their best placing or check.

We finally agree. :ThmbUp::D

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Wait pal. Don't mind me. What race are you talking about? The BG or the 8/27 race?

8/27. SD. Come on, EMD, keep up with the pace. :p

This portion that you quoted should have given it away..., right?:

Why no complaints about a number of horses looking to pin Flintshire to the rail? Your only complaint is a single horse giving Flintshire a chance to win if he was good enough.

[EMD4ME]

8/27. SD. Come on, EMD, keep up with the pace. :p

This portion that you quoted should have given it away..., right?:

Why no complaints about a number of horses looking to pin Flintshire to the rail? Your only complaint is a single horse giving Flintshire a chance to win if he was good enough.

This is why I had to ask.

I didn't see 4 horses looking to pin Flintshire into the rail. In fact, the only horse looking to pin Flintshire into the rail was.............

Flintshire. More realistically, the jockey, Javier Castellano.

The 5 was the rabbit (and almost messed it up, breaking super slow).

The 1 was mid pack, far ahead of the 6.

The 7 was near the pace, nothing to do with pinning the 6 in.

The 2 was giving the 6 cover till the 3/8's.

The 3 was on the lead till the rabbit showed up.

The 4 was the only horse remotely near the 6 but I didn't see the jock race riding to box the 6 in.

Javier had every chance to make sure he got off the rail from the gate till the backstretch. He CHOSE to stay inside, which shows me A LOT.......

You don't say inside with a horse who is SUPER MEGA TONS THE BEST, in a race where the speeds are 1/100000000000000000000000 to collapse.


That is why I thought you meant the BG, where Jose and Irad played Gallop racer till Johnny V rode honest and created an opening for Javier to win.

[cj]

I know that.

But you are inherently accepting it by complaining about a rabbit "giving" Flintshire the rail in the stretch while not complaining about 4 other horses race riding and looking to box in Flintshire for the entire race to keep him from winning.

Why no complaints about a number of horses looking to pin Flintshire to the rail? Your only complaint is a single horse giving Flintshire a chance to win if he was good enough.

Frankly I didn't see that at all on Saturday. He was clear and easily could have went around but the rider CHOSE to go inside. The others weren't trying to pin him. Once he made the decision to go down there they should make it tough. Trying to save ground should come with traffic problems.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Obviously, we saw the same. Too, they went nuts when their 1-9 pick won!!

I use the machines all the time. Hardly ever go to the tellers to bet. All day Saturday, I was caught behind a slew of young--men betting, women betting, or couples betting--who didn't know how to use the machines, and too, didn't know how to handicap. Worst of all, they thumbed through the entries sipping their beer while trying to wager. :faint: Travers Day is not a good day to decide, for the first time,"oh, let's use the machines."
I remember when they first came out. The abuse was legendary. Younger people thinking they were video games, other people thinking they were like slot machines where once you got in front of one it was yours. I remember at my track there was a guy in a wheelchair who would park in front a machine with impunity, thinking who would push him to move along. Turned out not to be a good assumption given the racetrack crowd. Of course copious banks of machines only has a capital cost for the track but the marginal operating cost is very small.

[Fager Fan]

When you have 3 to 4 other horses pinning a horse at the rail, do you feel that is a fair race? Especially when you can visually see how egregiously they are doing that very task?

Sorry, but at some point in time, shouldn't we want to have the best horse win?

This isn't a $5K claimer at Evangeline Downs. This is a G1 turf race at Saratoga supposedly pitting the very best against the very best, and you are trying to make an argument for strong arm tactics so lesser horses can win?

If you have such the best horse that you're worried about getting pinned in by multiple horses, then I suggest you get outside.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

If you have such the best horse that you're worried about getting pinned in by multiple horses, then I suggest you get outside.

You're right.

I have the best horse, I should ride him 6 wide around the entire track in a 12 furlong race.

Why hasn't any jockey, trainer, or owner ever thought of that before?

[SuperPickle]

Sadly, they didn't even know there was a "rabbit" in the race!



I know plenty of people that didn't know one of the horses was a rabbit three days beforehand, myself included. I didn't pay much attention to the race because I didn't see any way Flintshire would lose. Once I looked closely on Saturday it was obvious why the horse was in the race. Still, I think the people betting $5 or $10 deserve protection too. The horse had over 200k bet across various pools. That shouldn't have been allowed to happen.



There are times at the track where the teller is the best option. Wireless signals aren't always great and betting at machines can be a crapshoot. They aren't that reliable and if you get stuck behind an idiot, you're screwed. You can always bet early, but often times you wind up betting horses at bad odds if you bet too soon.

That said, I know what I'm getting into when I go to the track and plan ahead. I generally bet through ADW. Just saying problems do arise.

I think we're on the same page. I'll sum it up this way. Law Enforcement has an obligation to protect citizens. Citizens have a right to walk safely down the street.

But even with those facts it's still a dumb idea to walk down the street in a bad neighborhood with $1,000 cash on you. The government has an obligation to keep you safe but you still have an obligation outside of that to keep yourself safe.

The Sword Dancer was that neighborhood late at night.

[Robes]

I just watched the replay of the Sword Dancer again. When I watched the race live, I was focused on the 5 horse. He was the rabbit that missed the break, went blazing fractions and then took out a few horses so Flintshire could get a clean trip up the rail.

I watched the replay again and focused on Money Multiplier. Heading for the far turn, he is in a perfect spot sitting behind the speed. Irad suddenly pulls MM up and to the right suddenly (essentially stands up) and allows Flintshire the spot - costing MM any chance of winning the race. In essence, he threw the race.

MM was 5-1 and was deliberately not trying to win the race either (same with rabbit). Both the rabbit's jockey and Irad were not only not trying to win the race, they actually took actions in the race that put other horses, their mounts, and jockeys at risk of injury.

This should not be allowed. First of all Flintshire really does not need the help. Second, there is wagering here and you are ripping off the public if your jockey is not actively trying to win the race. Third, you are creating a safety issue by doing this stuff.


How can some people on this board call the way Ortiz rode M.M (a bad ride) ,when it is obvious which ever way you look at it than his priority was not to win the race. But to make sure that his stablemate go through and won,these crooks should go to jail for race fixing.

[thespaah]

So true. There were some of my trainer's horses where you took your life into your hands every time you entered their stall. John Henry and Forego struck terror into the hearts of those that had to deal with them. Being a groom is a dangerous job though the nice ones do make it all worthwhile.

Racing T-breds are the only breed of horses where temperament is a zero factor in breeding. As long as they're fast they can pass on their psychotic behavior to future generations.
Yep....During my short tenure with Standardbreds, the mostly calm cousins of Thoroughbreds, most are easy to handle.
A few though, can be downright mean.
One of my horses, a 2yo colt was a nut job. Our stalls had a window in the upper door. The window had bars. When someone walked by, that SOB would get wide eyed and start biting the bars. I could not go into his stall unless i had a curry or main/tail comb in my hand. Only other time i could go in there was to feed.
I had to bribe the horse with treats just to get a lead shank on him so I could get him out to muck his stall.
At the end of the summer, they had him cut. His stud value was not going to be worth anything so "snip here. Tie there.".....Calmed him down to a manageable level. But he was always going to be a biter.

[thespaah]

This thing started with an angry post. Then others jumped the bandwagon. The conspiracy theories flew.
People calling out riders, trainers, everybody.
One the Sword Dancer. What I saw was cooperation among members of a jockey colony.
Flintshire was going to win that race if they made him start at the entrance to Yaddo. He's just that good.
Now, Castellano is on the rail and he has a ton of horse. The one in front was running out of petrol. Of course Castallano is most likely hollering at the rider in front to make a hole. This happens far more often then most would like to admit. And it is the way it is.
Remember folks, these people, the jockeys compete against each other every day. They have to live with each other. And they realize that what goes around comes around. So if a guy is going to run the horse in front over with his horse, the one out front knows to get out of the way. I view it as a safety thing as well as mutual cooperation by people who have to work with each other.

[Robes]

This thing started with an angry post. Then others jumped the bandwagon. The conspiracy theories flew.
People calling out riders, trainers, everybody.
One the Sword Dancer. What I saw was cooperation among members of a jockey colony.
Flintshire was going to win that race if they made him start at the entrance to Yaddo. He's just that good.
Now, Castellano is on the rail and he has a ton of horse. The one in front was running out of petrol. Of course Castallano is most likely hollering at the rider in front to make a hole. This happens far more often then most would like to admit. And it is the way it is.
Remember folks, these people, the jockeys compete against each other every day. They have to live with each other. And they realize that what goes around comes around. So if a guy is going to run the horse in front over with his horse, the one out front knows to get out of the way. I view it as a safety thing as well as mutual cooperation by people who have to work with each other.


Friend you are talking out of your arse, do your self a favor and watch the replay I made it easy for you I attached the video below,the one in front of Flintshire is M.M who after Ortiz. Gives up his perfect position to let Flintshire through comes around and finishes 2nd,if what Ortiz. did happened in a racing jurisdiction who cares about the game and the bettors like Hong Kong Ortiz would be probably be banned for life
http://video.drf.com/

[Fager Fan]

You're right.

I have the best horse, I should ride him 6 wide around the entire track in a 12 furlong race.

Why hasn't any jockey, trainer, or owner ever thought of that before?

You realize that one or more horses take the wider path in every race run?

Yes, if you have the best horse, and you are worried about being boxed in, then get your horse outside.

[bello]

Javier did not have a care in the world as he knew the horses in front of him would let hem through.

Maybe this entire scenario bothers me less since collusion, courtesy tucks, outside flow blocking and other "questionable" activities are a daily occurrence in harness racing where I cut my teeth. When I had the time to create my own charts, particularly at a single track, I would use what I saw to my advantage. Now that I am mostly on the t'bred side, I also notice obvious collusion but not as often.

This race was obvious collusion. But what surprises me is how surprised everyone else is. It wasn't the first and will not be the last.

My biggest issue in this entire escapade are how dumbass NYRA judges really and truly are. Doesn't give me much confidence in the product ans the knowledge that all the trainers, jocks, jock agents, and anyone else who can mis-behave also know these guys have no clue.

[Fager Fan]

Javier did not have a care in the world as he knew the horses in front of him would let hem through.

Maybe this entire scenario bothers me less since collusion, courtesy tucks, outside flow blocking and other "questionable" activities are a daily occurrence in harness racing where I cut my teeth. When I had the time to create my own charts, particularly at a single track, I would use what I saw to my advantage. Now that I am mostly on the t'bred side, I also notice obvious collusion but not as often.

This race was obvious collusion. But what surprises me is how surprised everyone else is. It wasn't the first and will not be the last.

My biggest issue in this entire escapade are how dumbass NYRA judges really and truly are. Doesn't give me much confidence in the product ans the knowledge that all the trainers, jocks, jock agents, and anyone else who can mis-behave also know these guys have no clue.

Do we allow collusion, and isn't collusion another word for race-fixing?

[bello]

Do we allow collusion, and isn't collusion another word for race-fixing?

Yes and Yes....The proof is in the pudding or this thread would not exist. All of these respected and knowledgeable horse players saw it with their own eyes in a Grade 1 Stakes race at Saratoga with some of the most presigios trainers, owners jocks in the world . What do you think occurs in a 12.5 claimer on the inner track in the middle of winter when 25% of the jockeys are either related or live together.

[EMD4ME]

Yes and Yes....The proof is in the pudding or this thread would not exist. All of these respected and knowledgeable horse players saw it with their own eyes in a Grade 1 Stakes race at Saratoga with some of the most presigios trainers, owners jocks in the world . What do you think occurs in a 12.5 claimer on the inner track in the middle of winter when 25% of the jockeys are either related or live together.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Love it when there's 4 equal speeds and 3 of them get choked down from the 1st stride :bang: :bang:

[bello]

Yes and Yes....The proof is in the pudding or this thread would not exist. All of these respected and knowledgeable horse players saw it with their own eyes in a Grade 1 Stakes race at Saratoga with some of the most presigios trainers, owners jocks in the world . What do you think occurs in a 12.5 claimer on the inner track in the middle of winter when 25% of the jockeys are either related or live together.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Love it when there's 4 equal speeds and 3 of them get choked down from the 1st stride :bang: :bang:
Funny you say that EMD....Look at race race 3 today at the spa. Check out the bunkmates and what would your own pace figs show as which horse, 1,2,or 8 would be stalking a 26 /14 and a 50.2 1/2. And flush all logic down the toilet. It was the slow and plodding 8 who holds for second

[bobphilo]

Appeal filed in Sword Dancer.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/214685/appeal-filed-over-sword-dancer-decision?source=rss

[JustRalph]

Appeal filed in Sword Dancer.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/214685/appeal-filed-over-sword-dancer-decision?source=rss

Uh oh.........

The results of this are going to be very very interesting

[bello]

Appeal filed in Sword Dancer.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/214685/appeal-filed-over-sword-dancer-decision?source=rss

Now the judges may have to learn the rules that CJ posted.....unless an appeal goes to the state.

[EMD4ME]

Uh oh.........

The results of this are going to be very very interesting

I hope (which will never happen) they DQ all Chad Brown runners to last AS per the rules as they were ALL 100% guilty of collusion and true race fixing.

Not my opinion, FACT.

I hope Irad gets the hammer, Javier gets a bit less than the hammer and Aaron also gets fined/suspended for a long time for his dangerous actions.

They didn't do this to collect a bet but ironically, hopefully this will get the right attention and make up for the other bs that these boys run all year round.

[EMD4ME]

Now the judges may have to learn the rules that CJ posted.....unless an appeal goes to the state.

I wouldn't hold my breath but those 3 blind clowns should be pension less and jobless.

[EMD4ME]

[QUOTE=EMD4ME]
Funny you say that EMD....Look at race race 3 today at the spa. Check out the bunkmates and what would your own pace figs show as which horse, 1,2,or 8 would be stalking a 26 /14 and a 50.2 1/2. And flush all logic down the toilet. It was the slow and plodding 8 who holds for second

I had a long post written but it in the interest of not being banned, I never submitted it.

To say the least, that race had WWE written all over it. All stars deserve Oscars for their roles.

[cj]

[QUOTE=bello]

I had a long post written but it in the interest of not being banned, I never submitted it.

To say the least, that race had WWE written all over it. All stars deserve Oscars for their roles.

I don't even blame the guys involved. I blame the stewards. They are fat catting it and do only the bare minimum required of the them to accept a big salary.

[EMD4ME]

[QUOTE=EMD4ME]

I don't even blame the guys involved. I blame the stewards. They are fat catting it and do only the bare minimum required of the them to accept a big salary.


And I would not be surprised if part of the fat is coming from the boys.

[Fager Fan]

It is situations like these where I've often wondered why handicappers don't pool together some resources (like who among you is a lawyer?) and file a class action suit against the track(s)?

That's the way to get meaningful change in the sport. Either the handicappers band together, or the owners. It's more difficult for the owners because their decision to band together forces their trainers into it as well which is a logistical nightmare.

[cj]

[QUOTE=cj]


And I would not be surprised if part of the fat is coming from the boys.

For me, that is going too far. But when you are lazy and/or incompetent, those under your watch figure it out quickly and take advantage.

[JustRalph]

It is situations like these where I've often wondered why handicappers don't pool together some resources (like who among you is a lawyer?) and file a class action suit against the track(s)?

That's the way to get meaningful change in the sport. Either the handicappers band together, or the owners. It's more difficult for the owners because their decision to band together forces their trainers into it as well which is a logistical nightmare.

You would have to do it separately in every state there is racing. You would have to prove a ton of different things in a ton of different courts. It would be so convoluted and expensive it would never end.

The states would just close down racing to avoid any large suit or penalty. It's a nightmare scenario

[PaceAdvantage]

What happened that day in the Sword Dancer SHOULD have warranted action by the Stewards...of this there is no doubt in my mind.

But some of you guys, with your "I'm gonna push the envelope of insanity yet again" really do yourselves a disfavor by using this race as some example of the all encompassing CONSTANT race-fixing you claim you see on average in 6 out of 9 races per day...and that's being conservative.

Do you guys actually believe for one second that the connections of a horse like Flintshire thought they were going to be THAT DESPERATE to win that race that not only did they enter a rabbit (they did), but that they also scripted the race?

As if Flintshire WITHOUT a rabbit wouldn't win that race 8-9 times out of 10?

What ACTUALLY happened was that Gryder had the rail, Javier saw Gryder had the rail and knew he would move out of the way for him if Gryder saw or heard Javier coming up behind him, as a matter of courtesy. Gryder took it way too far, overreacted and should have been DQ'd, ALONG WITH Flintshire.

But to think these guys wasted two minutes coming up with this elaborate plan is silly. We're talking Flintshire here...really? You think they thought they were in that much trouble going into the race and had to come up with something that desperate? What did he go off at? 1-9?

[EMD4ME]

What happened that day in the Sword Dancer SHOULD have warranted action by the Stewards...of this there is no doubt in my mind.

But some of you guys, with your "I'm gonna push the envelope of insanity yet again" really do yourselves a disfavor by using this race as some example of the all encompassing CONSTANT race-fixing you claim you see on average in 6 out of 9 races per day...and that's being conservative.

Do you guys actually believe for one second that the connections of a horse like Flintshire thought they were going to be THAT DESPERATE to win that race that not only did they enter a rabbit (they did), but that they also scripted the race?

As if Flintshire WITHOUT a rabbit wouldn't win that race 8-9 times out of 10?

What ACTUALLY happened was that Gryder had the rail, Javier saw Gryder had the rail and knew he would move out of the way for him if Gryder saw or heard Javier coming up behind him, as a matter of courtesy. Gryder took it way too far, overreacted and should have been DQ'd, ALONG WITH Flintshire.

But to think these guys wasted two minutes coming up with this elaborate plan is silly. We're talking Flintshire here...really? You think they thought they were in that much trouble going into the race and had to come up with something that desperate? What did he go off at? 1-9?

OK. I'll play.

Explain Money Multiplier's jock looking back at the 1M pole, 1/2 pole and the 3/8 AND then wildly pushing out into no available path (to make room for Flintshire) if there was no plan to win the race this way.

I'm all ears.

[Fager Fan]

For what it's worth, I want to add that there are jockeys being told directly that if they dare race ride certain top trainers' horses, that they'll never ride for that trainer again.

I've not been a supporter of the mega-stables in the past, but in knowing the above and seeing races be scripted almost regularly and multiple entries from a single trainer in big races, I am now of the opinion that racing has to break up the mega-stables. This could be far worse than anything we think is going on with illegal drugs.

[PaceAdvantage]

OK. I'll play.

Explain Money Multiplier's jock looking back at the 1M pole, 1/2 pole and the 3/8 AND then wildly pushing out into no available path (to make room for Flintshire) if there was no plan to win the race this way.

I'm all ears.I've stated my case as clearly as I can. You disagree. I didn't think I'd change your mind. I have nothing more to add.

But, I will add this... :lol:

I never said it wasn't in Gryder's best interests to make sure he didn't get in the way of Flintshire, thus he was making himself aware of where his partner was, because after all, it was publicly stated before the race that he was riding the rabbit. And when you're riding as rabbit, you probably want to know where the horse you're rabbitting for is on the track...one reason might be you want to know when you can wrap up on your rabbit and not kill the horse more than you already have...

[summersquall]

The DRF guys Illman and Beer both remarked about the inanity of what occurred with Beer speculating "Irad had future mounts in mind".

[EMD4ME]

I've stated my case as clearly as I can. You disagree. I didn't think I'd change your mind. I have nothing more to add.

But, I will add this... :lol:

I never said it wasn't in Gryder's best interests to make sure he didn't get in the way of Flintshire, thus he was making himself aware of where his partner was, because after all, it was publicly stated before the race that he was riding the rabbit. And when you're riding as rabbit, you probably want to know where the horse you're rabbitting for is on the track...one reason might be you want to know when you can wrap up on your rabbit and not kill the horse more than you already have...

OK :lol: . Truce enacted !

[bello]

The DRF guys Illman and Beer both remarked about the inanity of what occurred with Beer speculating "Irad had future mounts in mind".
As did Gryder. What kind of outrage would there have been if Gryder stayed glued to the rail and didnt let Flintshire though? How many singles were there in the P3,4,6 and verticals on top.

Gryder would have been banished to Columbus Nebraska as no trainer would ever use him again, let alone public outrage for burying his 1-9 stablemate. Gryder at least had absolutely no choice but to extricate himself from the rail or it would have been remembered as one of the worst rides in history. He had no choice.

[Track Phantom]

As did Gryder. What kind of outrage would there have been if Gryder stayed glued to the rail and didnt let Flintshire though? How many singles were there in the P3,4,6 and verticals on top.

Gryder would have been banished to Columbus Nebraska as no trainer would ever use him again, let alone public outrage for burying his 1-9 stablemate. Gryder at least had absolutely no choice but to extricate himself from the rail or it would have been remembered as one of the worst rides in history. He had no choice.
Not sure this makes sense. If the horse (and rider) are in the race to win, why should he be concerned with any other horse than his own? It only matters in the pathetic state horse racing is in where the same trainer has 3 runners in the race and orchestrated the best path for the favorite.

If you look at it objectively, Gryder should be staying on the rail to slow anyone trying to save ground...unless, of course, his instructions are different which is basically corrupt.

[menifee]

What happened that day in the Sword Dancer SHOULD have warranted action by the Stewards...of this there is no doubt in my mind.

But some of you guys, with your "I'm gonna push the envelope of insanity yet again" really do yourselves a disfavor by using this race as some example of the all encompassing CONSTANT race-fixing you claim you see on average in 6 out of 9 races per day...and that's being conservative.

Do you guys actually believe for one second that the connections of a horse like Flintshire thought they were going to be THAT DESPERATE to win that race that not only did they enter a rabbit (they did), but that they also scripted the race?

As if Flintshire WITHOUT a rabbit wouldn't win that race 8-9 times out of 10?

What ACTUALLY happened was that Gryder had the rail, Javier saw Gryder had the rail and knew he would move out of the way for him if Gryder saw or heard Javier coming up behind him, as a matter of courtesy. Gryder took it way too far, overreacted and should have been DQ'd, ALONG WITH Flintshire.

But to think these guys wasted two minutes coming up with this elaborate plan is silly. We're talking Flintshire here...really? You think they thought they were in that much trouble going into the race and had to come up with something that desperate? What did he go off at? 1-9?

I'm not one of those guys that believes racing is fixed, but this race really bothered me. Your point is well taken. They did not need to do what they did. Flintshire was winning this race regardless so all the bs was unnecessary. Similar to Watergate.

[outofthebox]

I'm sure if Money would have won, CC Brown and co. would have been very happy for the Klaravich connections. Don't think for a moment Klaravich would not pull his horses from stable if he felt his best interest were not in play..IMHO. Ortiz just ran into a roadblock. His horse was fresh and rolling, and the two leaders were backing up. It wasn't a bad ride, stiff job, just the way the race dynamics rolled his way. Lucky for Castellano his stablemate moved out of the way.

[bobphilo]

As did Gryder. What kind of outrage would there have been if Gryder stayed glued to the rail and didnt let Flintshire though? How many singles were there in the P3,4,6 and verticals on top.

Gryder would have been banished to Columbus Nebraska as no trainer would ever use him again, let alone public outrage for burying his 1-9 stablemate. Gryder at least had absolutely no choice but to extricate himself from the rail or it would have been remembered as one of the worst rides in history. He had no choice.
And that is the shame of it. Forcing jockeys to participate in skulduggery.
A black eye to the sport and it stinks.

[rsetup]

Been following this thread and trying to get behind the notion that miniature athletes, for the most part not at the upper tier of the intellectual spectrum, piloting 1000+ pound animals significantly less intelligent but more stubborn than they are, going close to 40 mph are able to control race setups as they premeditatedly please.

Got me to think how many cycling events must be fixed.

[bobphilo]

The NY Gaming Commission has refused to hear the claim in the Sword Dancer
with a bullshit excuse that since it was a "judgement call" on the part of the stewards it was not subject to review. When the hell are stewards' decisions not judgement calls of some kind?

Why am I not surprised? :bang:

[Fager Fan]

The NY Gaming Commission has refused to hear the claim in the Sword Dancer
with a bullshit excuse that since it was a "judgement call" on the part of the stewards it was not subject to review. When the hell are stewards' decisions not judgement calls of some kind?

Why am I not surprised? :bang:

The collusion continues.

[PaceAdvantage]

Been following this thread and trying to get behind the notion that miniature athletes, for the most part not at the upper tier of the intellectual spectrumTry harder next time not to be so diplomatic.

[rsetup]

Try harder next time not to be so diplomatic.

If we get the NYRA jocks on a crowded city street and direct (key word) them
to walk on the right side, what would you bet with confidence that they'd all be there after one block?

[bobphilo]

The collusion continues.
Hey, we're a capitalist society and whatever favors the big money trainers and owners goes.
Like the King in the Wizard of ID said. "Remember the golden rule. He who has the gold, makes the rules.

[bobphilo]

If we get the NYRA jocks on a crowded city street and direct (key word) them
to walk on the right side, what would you bet with confidence that they'd all be there after one block?
That's why Beyer calls them the "little pinheads".
While I agree with the statement that, "While I can question their judgement, I can never question their courage", being brave does not make one immune from being dumb.

[cj]

The NY Gaming Commission has refused to hear the claim in the Sword Dancer
with a bullshit excuse that since it was a "judgement call" on the part of the stewards it was not subject to review. When the hell are stewards' decisions not judgement calls of some kind?

Why am I not surprised? :bang:

It is so hard to be a bettor and fan of this sport any more.

[EMD4ME]

It is so hard to be a bettor and fan of this sport any more.

Yes, it is. And then you have people telling you you're seeing too much into things AND then coverups, it is SUCH a turn off.

[cj]

Yes, it is. And then you have people telling you you're seeing too much into things AND then coverups, it is SUCH a turn off.

Just got beat out of a nice straight exacta when Ostolenka somehow got beat out of second. Time for a trip to the Caribbean and forget about racing for a while, at least the betting side.

[EMD4ME]

Just got beat out of a nice straight exacta when Ostolenka somehow got beat out of second. Time for a trip to the Caribbean and forget about racing for a while, at least the betting side.

I see a negative rail or at least a strong chance of a negative rail.

Genius rides the rail most of the way. Yeah, that would make me leave town for a while....

That check at the 1/8 was a crusher for you too.

[bello]

Like the OP said,,,,where is the outrage....Well the outrage should have gotten even worse today. The NYS Gaming commission refusing to hear the appeal is spineless and outrageous.

You know many people think because NYRA and Saratoga are the Mecca of thoroughbred racing that there is some special oversight being given to the game.

As has now been proven by the judges at Saratoga with their comments about not knowing a rabbit was in and their lack of knowledge about the rules, couple with the commission not even hearing the appeal, they are showing the entire nation there really is no oversight.

Yes, I often make comparisons to my experiences in harness racing, but this is the same feckless commission that has allowed every juicer known to mankind in the harness world race at Yonkers. We are talking trainers with lists upon lists of positives. As well as a fairly well documented yet denied case of a particular trainer getting favored treatment again and again in the post draw.

NY Judges and the Commission are anything but the overseers many perceive them to be.

[EMD4ME]

Like the OP said,,,,where is the outrage....Well the outrage should have gotten even worse today. The NYS Gaming commission refusing to hear the appeal is spineless and outrageous.

You know many people think because NYRA and Saratoga are the Mecca of thoroughbred racing that there is some special oversight being given to the game.

As has now been proven by the judges at Saratoga with their comments about not knowing a rabbit was in and their lack of knowledge about the rules, couple with the commission not even hearing the appeal, they are showing the entire nation there really is no oversight.

Yes, I often make comparisons to my experiences in harness racing, but this is the same feckless commission that has allowed every juicer known to mankind in the harness world race at Yonkers. We are talking trainers with lists upon lists of positives. As well as a fairly well documented yet denied case of a particular trainer getting favored treatment again and again in the post draw.

NY Judges and the Commission are anything but the overseers many perceive them to be.


To me, everything you said has been a given since when I can remember.

I've NEVER had any faith in any integrity in horse racing. Here (NY) or anywhere. If anyone ever did, they need their heads examined.

Only gotten 10000X worse in NY since Ramon went down.

Not knocking you, complimenting you on seeing as it is.

Unlike these rose colored glasses, kiss everyone's asses, homers that come on here and attack the people who see it like it really is.

[EMD4ME]

But according to a well known announcer here, you Bello, myself and other horseplayers would have no CLUE how to be a steward as we didn't attend 30 hours of dumby school.

[cj]

But according to a well known announcer here, you Bello, myself and other horseplayers would have no CLUE how to be a steward as we didn't attend 30 hours of dumby school.

30 hours, is that what he said? LOL. These guys are clueless most of the time. I remember when the NYRA "Stewards Reports" were heralded as some great stride for bettors that was going to educate us. They are the joke of jokes. They say absolutely nothing. Putting them on the web site is a slap in the face.

[JustRalph]

One good thing did come out of it. Since the stewards didn't know there was a rabbit in the race, all rabbits will be required extra equipment in the future

[EMD4ME]

One good thing did come out of it. Since the stewards didn't know there was a rabbit in the race, all rabbits will be required extra equipment in the future

OMG!!!! I felt my brain come out of my skull, LAUGHING SO HARD :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[EMD4ME]

One good thing did come out of it. Since the stewards didn't know there was a rabbit in the race, all rabbits will be required extra equipment in the future

I'm going to print that, take the 2nd floor elevator up to the Stewards room, walk in to them and teach them a thing or two.

I'M STILL LAUGHING RALPH!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

If Andy happens to walk by, I'll take him with me! That should be a hoot :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[EMD4ME]

30 hours, is that what he said? LOL. These guys are clueless most of the time. I remember when the NYRA "Stewards Reports" were heralded as some great stride for bettors that was going to educate us. They are the joke of jokes. They say absolutely nothing. Putting them on the web site is a slap in the face.

In 2010 California also instituted that all stewards must have an R.O.A.P accreditation certificate which is earned after a six day 60 hour seminar given twice a year at various locations around the country. Film review teaching is a major part of this course.

Vic said that in 2015 in the DQ thread.


My apologies, I said 30. It's 60 hours a year.

Sh*t, we watch that in 1 or 2 weeks.

[cj]

In 2010 California also instituted that all stewards must have an R.O.A.P accreditation certificate which is earned after a six day 60 hour seminar given twice a year at various locations around the country. Film review teaching is a major part of this course.

Vic said that in 2015 in the DQ thread.


My apologies, I said 30. It's 60 hours a year.

Sh*t, we watch that in 1 or 2 weeks.

Still isn't very much. I've taken naps almost that long after a long night of imbibing.

[EMD4ME]

Still isn't very much. I've taken naps almost that long after a long night of imbibing.

You think Vic will Imbibe all this and help the cause??? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :D :D :lol: :lol: :lol:

[bello]

But according to a well known announcer here, you Bello, myself and other horseplayers would have no CLUE how to be a steward as we didn't attend 30 hours of dumby school.

Hey now... He once dqed a mule jockey at Ferndale for lack of effort. I still think it was the mule and not jockey Crispin

[EMD4ME]

The stewards mindset is obvious here. Let everyone think we are stupid instead of them seeing the truth.

I dont buy the BS about them not knowing the 5 was a rabbit.

They also didn't DQ the 5 because they knew the next relevant question would be : why not DQ the winner as well for benefitting from the foul.

Its always cleaner to just say no change. In their eyes.

[EMD4ME]

Karma is such a bitch. Even if you weren't a participator , watching something unscrupulous happen and not doing something about it (when you have the power) is attaching yourself to the crime...

[SG4]

Didn't NYRA stewards say future rabbits were going to be coupled with their more heralded stablemates after what happened in the Sword Dancer? Latigo Trail & Tapitation today were separate betting interests, was in print well before the race what the intentions were, sleeping at the switch again or was the coupling idea just a garbage way to try & cover the incident in the Sword Dancer?

[EMD4ME]

Didn't NYRA stewards say future rabbits were going to be coupled with their more heralded stablemates after what happened in the Sword Dancer? Latigo Trail & Tapitation today were separate betting interests, was in print well before the race what the intentions were, sleeping at the switch again or was the coupling idea just a garbage way to try & cover the incident in the Sword Dancer?

Great point....will fall on deaf ears sadly.


Also, race 8 had many sharpies up in anger. I don't blame them either.

[SG4]

Also, race 8 had many sharpies up in anger. I don't blame them either.

Did every sharpie bet Flipcup? What am I missing in this race that was so problematic?

[ReplayRandall]

Great point....will fall on deaf ears sadly.


Also, race 8 had many sharpies up in anger. I don't blame them either.

The so-called sharpies had their money on the wrong horse then....from the start...:cool:

[EMD4ME]

The so-called sharpies had their money on the wrong horse then....from the start...:cool:

I've won a bet and fumed myself when I saw weird crap.

I wasn't one of the complainers. I'm kind of desensitized by the same old same old most often. This time, I listened, nodded and sympathized.

I did point out the 6 was dead in the doubles and win pool. The board was screaming that the 5 would get no competition, gate till wire.

[ReplayRandall]

I've won a bet and fumed myself when I saw weird crap.

I wasn't one of the complainers. I'm kind of desensitized by the same old same old most often. This time, I listened, nodded and sympathized.

I did point out the 6 was dead in the doubles and win pool. The board was screaming that the 5 would get no competition, gate till wire.

You said " I don't blame the sharpies for being mad", How so?....I don't see what you're referring to, unless you're talking about THEIR money showing up in the pools. If that's the case, who cares...They were on the wrong horse from the start.

[EasyGoer89]

Did every sharpie bet Flipcup? What am I missing in this race that was so problematic?

Maybe it had something to do with the entire field moving out of the way so the chalk could win, the favorite was buried with zero chance unless he got helped out.

[EMD4ME]

Did every sharpie bet Flipcup? What am I missing in this race that was so problematic?

I posted on Saturday and you maybe thought my post was from sunday?

Were talking about two different racing days.

[SG4]

I posted on Saturday and you maybe thought my post was from sunday?

Were talking about two different racing days.

Sorry about that, now I see why I was scratching my head so much. Saturday's 8th I see even less to grumble about though.

[EMD4ME]

Flintshire back on some WET TURF today. No rabbit or predetermined script to follow.

Money Multiplier beats him today. Johnny wire to wire in my small play against this over bet chalk.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Flintshire back on some WET TURF today. No rabbit or predetermined script to follow.

Money Multiplier beats him today. Johnny wire to wire in my small play against this over bet chalk.

I can't see him getting beaten today if the last couple fields and trips couldn't manage it. But, if I had to play against my only move could be the price on Ectot conceivably being good enough to hope for an aggressive ride that compels the others to play 'smart' jockey and wind up with too much to do, another move forward in the third for the barn off the layoff, and some success on boggy turf courses.

[Alwaysonpoint36]

But, if I had to play against my only move could be the price on Ectot conceivably being good enough to hope for an aggressive ride that compels the others to play 'smart' jockey and wind up with too much to do, another move forward in the third for the barn off the layoff, and some success on boggy turf courses.

great call :cool: :cool:

[horses4courses]

Soft ground made the difference

[Tom]

Nice, JHB! :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[EMD4ME]

I can't see him getting beaten today if the last couple fields and trips couldn't manage it. But, if I had to play against my only move could be the price on Ectot conceivably being good enough to hope for an aggressive ride that compels the others to play 'smart' jockey and wind up with too much to do, another move forward in the third for the barn off the layoff, and some success on boggy turf courses.

Great call JHB!!!!! Well deserved :)

[johnhannibalsmith]

Yeah, thanks. Hope someone played it. I didn't. :lol: