Lawsuit

[mountainman]

A jock's agent has threatened to sue me for comments last week critical of his rider. The guy missed second narrowly, after which I remarked that he " looked awful on the horse, fell back every time the horse lunged forward, and had to contort his body and look back with every whip-strike-to hit the ass and make sure he didn't fall off. "

I further stated that the rider seemed to lack requisite professional skills.

Candor makes enemies.

[dilanesp]

A jock's agent has threatened to sue me for comments last week critical of his rider. The guy missed second narrowly, after which I remarked that he " looked awful on the horse, fell back every time the horse lunged forward, and had to contort his body and look back with every whip-strike-to hit the ass and make sure he didn't fall off. "

I further stated that the rider seemed to lack requisite professional skills.

Candor makes enemies.

Seems to me a jockey is a public figure and your statements (if they were even incorrect on their merits) would constitute constitutionally protected opinion.

[Fager Fan]

One is always entitled to their opinion. The jock agent you mention must be an all round joke.

[Donttellmeshowme]

Please do tell mountainman

[EMD4ME]

A jock's agent has threatened to sue me for comments last week critical of his rider. The guy missed second narrowly, after which I remarked that he " looked awful on the horse, fell back every time the horse lunged forward, and had to contort his body and look back with every whip-strike-to hit the ass and make sure he didn't fall off. "

I further stated that the rider seemed to lack requisite professional skills.

Candor makes enemies.

You should be given a raise! Forget the agent and keep on trucking :ThmbUp:

[thaskalos]

You should be given a raise! Forget the agent and keep on trucking :ThmbUp:

Vic would have given him a PAY-CUT! :)

[EMD4ME]

Vic would have given him a PAY-CUT! :)

:lol:

Vic would've given the 3 blind mice at the SPA a raise after this weekends rabbit hunting :lol:

[mountainman]

Accepting pay to ride as a professional jockey opens the door to critique. And if it doesn't, what country do we live in?

And where would the censorship ever end??????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????

[EMD4ME]

Accepting pay to ride as a professional jockey opens the door to critique. And if it doesn't, what country do we live in?

And where would the censorship ever end??????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????

Agreed 100000000000%. Let em have it! You're a professional horse racing analyst for Christ Sake.

Yeah I know. I shouldn't use the words Christ sake as I might offend non Christians but that's exactly why I did. This censorship and politically correct crap needs to go away. The rider looked terrible. Good for you for saying it . :ThmbUp:

[Tom]

The best way to avoid being called out for a bad ride is to ride good.
The guy's agent is a loser.

Counter-sue him.

[Redboard]

That's a piece of paper (if he sent you one) that you can throw away.

Imagine if every sports commentator could be sued for a comment. ( "He should have made that catch Dandy Don, it hit him right in the hands!" )

[thespaah]

That agent is a jackass.....First off, what woudl be his grounds to recover damages?
How would the agent show his business or his client were harmed?
This goes nowhere....

[johnhannibalsmith]

I'm all for an agent going the extra mile to defend his jock even if the agent himself doesn't really believe what he's saying in his jock's defense. Such is the life of an agent. But threatening a lawsuit like some suburban nerd dad? Come on pal, grow up and threaten to kick him in the balls or something mature and respectable that we can all appreciate.

[Tom]

Come on pal, grow up and threaten to kick him in the balls

Dammit, man, you ARE good! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

[mountainman]

Blow my temper and resort to violence? Perish the thought.

Joking aside..I'm going to avoid the guy for a few weeks. Otherwise: DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!!!

Some overbearing redneck trainer yelled at my beloved niece, Ramsey, who works photo finish here, several weeks ago. I got 3 inches from his face and screamed so loudly that I blew out my vocal chords. It wasn't pretty.

A man's got to know his limitations. One of mine is holding my temper.

[proximity]

this is amazing. i love it that horse racing is apparently the only PROFESSIONAL SPORT :faint: where the fans ( what's left of them) can't say a bad word about trainers or jockeys.

on the colts site people rip pagano and grigson all the time and they're WINNING connections. yet we never see chuck or ryan crying about internet posters hurting their business, lol.

[PaceAdvantage]

To be fair, I believe this agent is threatening because of what MM said on the in-house Mountaineer feed...which is heard by everyone at MNR...including all the trainers...you know those people who might be looking to ride said jock.

Not that I agree with any of this mind you...just pointing out this wasn't just something posted on the internet.

[dilanesp]

To be fair, I believe this agent is threatening because of what MM said on the in-house Mountaineer feed...which is heard by everyone at MNR...including all the trainers...you know those people who might be looking to ride said jock.

Not that I agree with any of this mind you...just pointing out this wasn't just something posted on the internet.

This doesn't matter one bit when a lawsuit is threatened.

[mountainman]

Just to be clear: the guy is claiming I violated his rider's lawful rights by criticizing him. And that I should forfeit my job, all my money, and perhaps even be jailed. He's been an agent for decades.

He is serious and persistent.

[BCOURTNEY]

Just to be clear: the guy is claiming I violated his rider's lawful rights by criticizing him. And that I should forfeit my job, all my money, and perhaps even be jailed. He's been an agent for decades.

He is serious and persistent.

Jailed? :lol:

[mountainman]

Jailed? :lol:

I'm totally serious. There is a small order of the tin-foil-hat on the backside that actually believes I belong in jail for speaking my mind.

In occasionally proposing civil lawsuits against me, they HAVE INDEED made the leap, once or twice, to violation of the law.

Welcome to my world.

[mountainman]

Sorry for the distraction, guys. Just needed to vent. I know this stuff is significant only to me. Which is as it should be.

[EMD4ME]

Sorry for the distraction, guys. Just needed to vent. I know this stuff is significant only to me. Which is as it should be.

Don't be sorry. Were here to provide feedback. Stand firm. You're doing your job.

[maclr11]

I've had a couple of really interesting encounters with horsemen after comments I've made. The best one being a trainer who was 0 for 18 in the last 2 years with debuting maiden claimers, I made the comment this filly is taking a lot of money but the barn really does not have any success at all with horses starting at this level and that probably makes her a vulnerable favorite. Next thing I know the next day I'm being called into a meeting regarding my defamation of trainers talents and that I'm trying to ruin their business. My boss asked me if I had any proof and I grabbed the racing form and pointed it out, and the trainer said I didn't even know they kept stats like that, but it doesn't matter you should be promoting my horses and my business.

So now for TV unless I have stats to back it up, I say the most passive comments I can about rides and horsemen because all it ends up doing is getting me in hot water with either my boss or the stewards. So it's turned into a game to word things that makes them sound neutral but really means I think the horse got a really bad ride or something.

If only people didn't take offence at every little thing...

[johnhannibalsmith]

That's awful to read Mac. You are doing a service to ASD bettors with that kind of information and they'd rather have a cheerleader for a bunch of trainers that are mostly under some kind of Assiniboia Downs house arrest? Man. I can honestly say that in the coupla years I did the job that my superiors had my back when it came it to that stuff.

[cj]

I've had a couple of really interesting encounters with horsemen after comments I've made. The best one being a trainer who was 0 for 18 in the last 2 years with debuting maiden claimers, I made the comment this filly is taking a lot of money but the barn really does not have any success at all with horses starting at this level and that probably makes her a vulnerable favorite. Next thing I know the next day I'm being called into a meeting regarding my defamation of trainers talents and that I'm trying to ruin their business. My boss asked me if I had any proof and I grabbed the racing form and pointed it out, and the trainer said I didn't even know they kept stats like that, but it doesn't matter you should be promoting my horses and my business.

So now for TV unless I have stats to back it up, I say the most passive comments I can about rides and horsemen because all it ends up doing is getting me in hot water with either my boss or the stewards. So it's turned into a game to word things that makes them sound neutral but really means I think the horse got a really bad ride or something.

If only people didn't take offence at every little thing...

That is really sad that your boss wouldn't be 100% behind you in that spot.

[Nitro]

A jock's agent has threatened to sue me for comments last week critical of his rider. The guy missed second narrowly, after which I remarked that he " looked awful on the horse, fell back every time the horse lunged forward, and had to contort his body and look back with every whip-strike-to hit the ass and make sure he didn't fall off. "

I further stated that the rider seemed to lack requisite professional skills.

Candor makes enemies.
Based on your observations, I believe you were actually doing the jockey a big favor by offering a subsequent report, be it public or otherwise. If his riding abilities are as poor as you’ve described, then not only does it become a safety issue for the jockey himself, but for the other riders as well.

I’m not sure who if anyone at Mountaineer Casino, Racetrack & Resort monitors and regulates the racing activities, but the type of race riding you’ve described should be cause for alarm. These type of situations also create a perception for a lack of credibility by those betting on races there.

I hate to constantly make reference to the Hong Kong Jockey Club, but in their eyes you would have been praised for coming forward, and the jockey would have gotten an immediate suspension. If nothing else, they believe in offering a fair game to their patrons. Why? Because there’s BIG betting money involved.

[mountainman]

i can honestly say that in the coupla years I did the job that my superiors had my back when it came it to that stuff.

So do mine. Rosemary Williams is terrific. And totally gets it when it comes to pitching our show to the players, not horsemen or riders. In fact, she requires it.

[teddy]

Well. my gf daughter slapped her mom in the face and I dragged her out of the house by her hair. NEVER TO RETURN. .... GLAD ITS NOT JUST ME THAT HAS A SHORT FUSE IN OUR OLD AGE.

[mountainman]

I've had a couple of really interesting encounters with horsemen after comments I've made. The best one being a trainer who was 0 for 18 in the last 2 years with debuting maiden claimers, I made the comment this filly is taking a lot of money but the barn really does not have any success at all with horses starting at this level and that probably makes her a vulnerable favorite. Next thing I know the next day I'm being called into a meeting regarding my defamation of trainers talents and that I'm trying to ruin their business. My boss asked me if I had any proof and I grabbed the racing form and pointed it out, and the trainer said I didn't even know they kept stats like that, but it doesn't matter you should be promoting my horses and my business.

So now for TV unless I have stats to back it up, I say the most passive comments I can about rides and horsemen because all it ends up doing is getting me in hot water with either my boss or the stewards. So it's turned into a game to word things that makes them sound neutral but really means I think the horse got a really bad ride or something.

If only people didn't take offence at every little thing...

Sad. When I get time I'll list some other things that enrage horsemen when stated on air. Believe me, you don't have to critique their skills to infuriate them. They are other ways. Unavoidable ways. And I've got the scars to prove it.

[pandy]

It can be a sticky situation when you work for the track, depends on the management, though.

Most of you probably never this guy, but back in the '70's the NY Post gave sportswriter Henry Hecht a harness handicapping column that took up an entire page. It was an in-depth analysis of the races at Roosevelt/Yonkers, and a follow up column called "checking up on Hecht" where he would critique his selections from the night before. In the checking up he was often very critical of the drivers. It was great stuff.

[dilanesp]

It can be a sticky situation when you work for the track, depends on the management, though.

Most of you probably never this guy, but back in the '70's the NY Post gave sportswriter Henry Hecht a harness handicapping column that took up an entire page. It was an in-depth analysis of the races at Roosevelt/Yonkers, and a follow up column called "checking up on Hecht" where he would critique his selections from the night before. In the checking up he was often very critical of the drivers. It was great stuff.

The track obviously has a lot of leeway here.

But threatening lawsuits is a very different issue. OP should contacta lawyer in W Va and see if there is anything that can be done to stop the threats. Because it is perfectly clear under First Amendment law that there are no grounds for suit.

[rrpic6]

I didn't hear the comments made by MM on the MNR feed but its no mystery that the jock colony there this year is really bad. Parker should never be below 30% now. Rivera and Bracho are solid journeymen. Quinones has found a niche the last few years, but struggles at Mahoning. Barbaran struggled a few places but is 20% there. Paucar rides mostly for Sullivan and is solid, as is Lagunes. That's 7 jockeys eliminated from the wrath of MM IMO. Better jock colonies this summer at T-Down and Presque Isle by far, and even Belterra's crew are evenly matched with Mountaineer's. Its all about the Benjamins.

RR

[proximity]

Don't be sorry. Were here to provide feedback. Stand firm. You're doing your job.

this.

i know this is the golden age of backstretch entitlement but YOU are the pride of that whole operation mountainman. just keep doing your best.

[arw629]

MM...we are all dying to know ...who is the jockey?!?!?!?

[mountainman]

Luis Ramon Rodriguez. I'll give the race out later so my fellow posters can pull it up. Sadly, I lack the computer skills to link or embed it.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Luis Ramon Rodriguez. ...

Ha. Didn't even know he was there. When he was just getting going a few years ago I was hustling and people were falling all over themselves to use this great new young kid. I didn't really get it. Although the rest of the colony was pretty much old and not exactly stellar in their own right, but still. Surprised on the one hand to see that name, but then again not all that surprised. :D

[maclr11]

It wasn't like I wasn't supported, they had my back on the facts, but I better have facts to back it all up. It's a very weird dynamic working in the race office and working a tv job. Sometimes too much information and too much contact with people puts you way too close to the situation.

It's made me very careful though to never say something is a positive trainer change, or a positive rider change or anything of that nature, everything is the possibility of improvement, or things like that.

There's ways to work around it, but sometimes there are things that most certainly don't get said because it can start too many problems.

I've got a few good stories too about horsemen who don't want things said on tv and such. I picked a $25 winner one time for a sharp horsemen and the next week when I was in the barn area doing race office work I got chased out with a hose for putting the public on this horse who unknowingly to me they were intending to gamble on. There's all sorts of funny ones from over the years.

2-year-old races and maiden races are the worst for it too.

[EMD4ME]

I've had a couple of really interesting encounters with horsemen after comments I've made. The best one being a trainer who was 0 for 18 in the last 2 years with debuting maiden claimers, I made the comment this filly is taking a lot of money but the barn really does not have any success at all with horses starting at this level and that probably makes her a vulnerable favorite. Next thing I know the next day I'm being called into a meeting regarding my defamation of trainers talents and that I'm trying to ruin their business. My boss asked me if I had any proof and I grabbed the racing form and pointed it out, and the trainer said I didn't even know they kept stats like that, but it doesn't matter you should be promoting my horses and my business.

So now for TV unless I have stats to back it up, I say the most passive comments I can about rides and horsemen because all it ends up doing is getting me in hot water with either my boss or the stewards. So it's turned into a game to word things that makes them sound neutral but really means I think the horse got a really bad ride or something.

If only people didn't take offence at every little thing...

Thanks for posting. Love this stuff!

Is this at ASD?

[johnhannibalsmith]

... It's a very weird dynamic working in the race office and working a tv job. Sometimes too much information and too much contact with people puts you way too close to the situation...

:D

Had to listen to the boss cuss and yell about agents and trainers entering to fill races with no intention of running just to make a race go for so-and-so. Was told in no uncertain terms that this was the end of it and next time it happens to let him know and he'd put the brakes on it if we couldn't. I was doubtful. But lo and behold, not a week later we have 7 in the box. I call him in. Throw the cards into two stacks, one with 4 and one with 3. Say, here you go, that final nine is really eight because these are the four that will run, these are the three that will scratch.

Long story shorter, he decided he couldn't really do anything and besides we couldn't magically pull another field out of our asses. Which was something that I had mentioned when he bugged out over it originally. So the race was carded. And I was kinda hot about it since I had just the other day listened to a long rant about how it was our jobs to prevent this stop from happening and blah blah blah.

That afternoon, sprint up from the race office where all this had been happening, moments after drawing the card, and had about forty seconds before I had to start yapping on-air.

First horse I get to talk about is a ridgling. I proceed to state that if anyone wants to know what a ridgling is, please see director of racing ........

I didn't even get yelled at for THAT. And I probably should have because knowing me it was probably a better idea to give me a clear line to stay north of. But it quickly got me over being mad for the rest of the day when my co-workers in the office called upstairs to laugh at me. And then three days later the race scratched down from seven to four. And we got to laugh again.

[johnhannibalsmith]

By the way I think I was going to tell a different tale that actually had something to do with what you meant. But I got distracted and thought I was still on the topic of not getting in trouble with the boss for comments. Oh well.

[EMD4ME]

:D

Had to listen to the boss cuss and yell about agents and trainers entering to fill races with no intention of running just to make a race go for so-and-so. Was told in no uncertain terms that this was the end of it and next time it happens to let him know and he'd put the brakes on it if we couldn't. I was doubtful. But lo and behold, not a week later we have 7 in the box. I call him in. Throw the cards into two stacks, one with 4 and one with 3. Say, here you go, that final nine is really eight because these are the four that will run, these are the three that will scratch.

Long story shorter, he decided he couldn't really do anything and besides we couldn't magically pull another field out of our asses. Which was something that I had mentioned when he bugged out over it originally. So the race was carded. And I was kinda hot about it since I had just the other day listened to a long rant about how it was our jobs to prevent this stop from happening and blah blah blah.

That afternoon, sprint up from the race office where all this had been happening, moments after drawing the card, and had about forty seconds before I had to start yapping on-air.

First horse I get to talk about is a ridgling. I proceed to state that if anyone wants to know what a ridgling is, please see director of racing ........

I didn't even get yelled at for THAT. And I probably should have because knowing me it was probably a better idea to give me a clear line to stay north of. But it quickly got me over being mad for the rest of the day when my co-workers in the office called upstairs to laugh at me. And then three days later the race scratched down from seven to four. And we got to laugh again.


Forgive the distraction of the thread but were you there during this time?

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/10/sports/future-is-cloudy-at-phoenix-track.html

I love reading about the past of our game.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Forgive the distraction of the thread but were you there during this time?

...

No, I moved west right around the turn of the century. And for the record, I've never worked for Turf Paradise. Not a big fan of the guy who writes the checks there. I did train and own, but that was about the only job I wanted to have for three-quarters of a year at that joint.

[EMD4ME]

No, I moved west right around the turn of the century. And for the record, I've never worked for Turf Paradise. Not a big fan of the guy who writes the checks there. I did train and own, but that was about the only job I wanted to have for three-quarters of a year at that joint.

I hear you. Read some interesting stuff about him.

Back to thread, my apologies.

MountainMan is on solid ground here. This is ridiculous. I would threaten a lawsuit back. On grounds that he has harrassed me to the point where I'm afraid to do my job and make a living.

Or something like that :lol: :lol: :lol:

[maclr11]

Yes it is, though trust me it happens everywhere.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...

Back to thread, my apologies.

...

I'm the one that took it far off the rails but seemed like it was a good type of thread for these kinds of vaguely topical segues. My apologies if needed.

[betovernetcapper]

You can sue a ham sandwich. Let him sue. If you get one person on the jury that lost money due to a bad ride you have at least a hung jury. Showing films of his joc's work would probably destroy his career.
When he loses you can counter sue & collect for a negligent lawsuit.
In any event this would be very amusing. :)

[dilanesp]

You can sue a ham sandwich. Let him sue. If you get one person on the jury that lost money due to a bad ride you have at least a hung jury. Showing films of his joc's work would probably destroy his career.
When he loses you can counter sue & collect for a negligent lawsuit.
In any event this would be very amusing. :)

This doesn't go to a jury. OP would get summary judgment on the First Amendment issue. In West Virginia, OP could also be entitled to an early dismissal under Harris v. Atkins.

This is why I say OP should consult with counsel. There are sometimes things you can do to stop the threats. For one thing it's a pretty big ethical violation for a lawyer to be send cease and desist letters that do not have a colorable legal basis.

[kingfin66]

This doesn't go to a jury. OP would get summary judgment on the First Amendment issue. In West Virginia, OP could also be entitled to an early dismissal under Harris v. Atkins.

This is why I say OP should consult with counsel. There are sometimes things you can do to stop the threats. For one thing it's a pretty big ethical violation for a lawyer to be send cease and desist letters that do not have a colorable legal basis.

Whether one can sue a ham sandwich, or whether or not the case would go to a jury is irrelevant. The fact remains that if a civil action is filed by one person against another, the defendant must respond or else they will be held liable. This presents a very stressful situation for the defendant in a lawsuit who must retain counsel. Counsel costs money that mountainman probably doesn't have (most don't). Unfortunately, our legal system is set up to easily allow this type of action by the types of yokels who are threatening Mark. The bottom line is that if the jerks file suit, Mark will likely end up paying them something because it will be less expensive than vigorously defending the lawsuit. This is something I know from my own experience. As my attorney told me when giving me advice, "You can either give them $10,000 or pay me $25,000."

By the way, am I crazy (rhetorical question) or did some posts get deleted from this thread?

[dilanesp]

Whether one can sue a ham sandwich, or whether or not the case would go to a jury is irrelevant. The fact remains that if a civil action is filed by one person against another, the defendant must respond or else they will be held liable. This presents a very stressful situation for the defendant in a lawsuit who must retain counsel. Counsel costs money that mountainman probably doesn't have (most don't). Unfortunately, our legal system is set up to easily allow this type of action by the types of yokels who are threatening Mark. The bottom line is that if the jerks file suit, Mark will likely end up paying them something because it will be less expensive than vigorously defending the lawsuit. This is something I know from my own experience. As my attorney told me when giving me advice, "You can either give them $10,000 or pay me $25,000."

By the way, am I crazy (rhetorical question) or did some posts get deleted from this thread?

I don't want to get too far into legal advice here, but settling on these facts would be ridiculous. This is an attempt to scare OP into shutting up, not to get money. Often times, a proactive legal strategy is very cost effective when someone does this.

[Broad Brush]

I really feel sorry for MM. This agent is a joke.
I do like some of the other stories this has prompted here though.

I never worked at a track--though I did cause an issue one day.

Years ago Thistledown used to have something called "The Morning
Glory Club" on Saturdays. It was fun they would go to the barns,
go to farms and have trackside seminars with guest speakers (jockeys,
trainers and so forth). The year that Valhol?? won the Arkansas Derby
and was DQed for the jockey using a battery they came to Thistle
for the Ohio Derby. That Saturday the speakers were the owner and
the trainer of him. They cried and complained the whole time that
it was not fair that their horse was taken down and that they should
have kept the win, the money and trophy and only the jockey
should have been punished as they were totally not at fault.
After listening to this garbage for 15-20 minutes, I could take no more.
I raised my hand and asked them: "your horse, though a maiden, ran
a game fourth in the Louisiana Derby, there were many decent jockeys
that would have wanted to ride him in the Ark. Derby. You, of your own free
will, reached out and tabbed "Billy convicted thief Patten" to ride him
in a $500,000 race. You are not responsible?"
They got up and stomped off and everybody was mad at me including the host. Oh well.

[proximity]

In West Virginia, OP could also be entitled to an early dismissal under Harris v. Atkins.


was that a low-carb case? :)

seriously, it's sad that our society has devolved to the point that harris v atkins may need to be brought up in this ridiculous situation.

i'm not an expert on track management and politics but this would probably be a good time for mnr management or the stewards to remind the backside of the importance for a track of such small stature to have a racing program that's palatable to experienced gamblers. jmo...

[mountainman]

was that a low-carb case? :)

seriously, it's sad that our society has devolved to the point that harris v atkins may need to be brought up in this ridiculous situation.

i'm not an expert on track management and politics but this would probably be a good time for mnr management or the stewards to remind the backside of the importance for a track of such small stature to have a racing program that's palatable to experienced gamblers. jmo...

Management is behind me. And tx, for the support, guys.

[EMD4ME]

I really feel sorry for MM. This agent is a joke.
I do like some of the other stories this has prompted here though.

I never worked at a track--though I did cause an issue one day.

Years ago Thistledown used to have something called "The Morning
Glory Club" on Saturdays. It was fun they would go to the barns,
go to farms and have trackside seminars with guest speakers (jockeys,
trainers and so forth). The year that Valhol?? won the Arkansas Derby
and was DQed for the jockey using a battery they came to Thistle
for the Ohio Derby. That Saturday the speakers were the owner and
the trainer of him. They cried and complained the whole time that
it was not fair that their horse was taken down and that they should
have kept the win, the money and trophy and only the jockey
should have been punished as they were totally not at fault.
After listening to this garbage for 15-20 minutes, I could take no more.
I raised my hand and asked them: "your horse, though a maiden, ran
a game fourth in the Louisiana Derby, there were many decent jockeys
that would have wanted to ride him in the Ark. Derby. You, of your own free
will, reached out and tabbed "Billy convicted thief Patten" to ride him
in a $500,000 race. You are not responsible?"
They got up and stomped off and everybody was mad at me including the host. Oh well.


Love it!!!! If I was there , I would've clapped and hee hawed like crazy for you! Good job!

[thespaah]

Blow my temper and resort to violence? Perish the thought.

Joking aside..I'm going to avoid the guy for a few weeks. Otherwise: DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!!!

Some overbearing redneck trainer yelled at my beloved niece, Ramsey, who works photo finish here, several weeks ago. I got 3 inches from his face and screamed so loudly that I blew out my vocal chords. It wasn't pretty.

A man's got to know his limitations. One of mine is holding my temper.
Not me.. The first word of the threat of a suit would have me picking at that scab at every opportunity. I would aggravate the crap out of that guy....
Of course I would push only so much. Just enough to be an irritant, but never enough to cause real trouble.
I would make that guy sorry he ever mentioned the word "lawsuit"...
My motto is this. If you step on my toes, I'm putting on work boots. Step on my toes again, and you'll be in pain. Not me.
:lol:

[thespaah]

I really feel sorry for MM. This agent is a joke.
I do like some of the other stories this has prompted here though.

I never worked at a track--though I did cause an issue one day.

Years ago Thistledown used to have something called "The Morning
Glory Club" on Saturdays. It was fun they would go to the barns,
go to farms and have trackside seminars with guest speakers (jockeys,
trainers and so forth). The year that Valhol?? won the Arkansas Derby
and was DQed for the jockey using a battery they came to Thistle
for the Ohio Derby. That Saturday the speakers were the owner and
the trainer of him. They cried and complained the whole time that
it was not fair that their horse was taken down and that they should
have kept the win, the money and trophy and only the jockey
should have been punished as they were totally not at fault.
After listening to this garbage for 15-20 minutes, I could take no more.
I raised my hand and asked them: "your horse, though a maiden, ran
a game fourth in the Louisiana Derby, there were many decent jockeys
that would have wanted to ride him in the Ark. Derby. You, of your own free
will, reached out and tabbed "Billy convicted thief Patten" to ride him
in a $500,000 race. You are not responsible?"
They got up and stomped off and everybody was mad at me including the host. Oh well.
Now THAT would alone been worth the price of admission.

[lamboguy]

years ago racing was a lot more fun. you dealt with a lot of different characters at the track. you used to have to deal with guys that had names like "johnny providence", "jerry the roach", "angie the worm", "red the milkman", dennis the foot doctor", "tony the tout".

the tracks across this land were full of guys like these. today the only one i know that everyone else knows is "jimmy the hat" in southern cal. today all we have is this board because most of us never leave the house. when you post something here and its not 100% factual some troll will come down your throat and try to stomp on you to the 10th degree. real tough group here, lots of very serious people though.

[mountainman]

Ha. Didn't even know he was there. When he was just getting going a few years ago I was hustling and people were falling all over themselves to use this great new young kid. I didn't really get it. Although the rest of the colony was pretty much old and not exactly stellar in their own right, but still. Surprised on the one hand to see that name, but then again not all that surprised. :D

He sits a horse like The Outlaw Josey Wales. Or John Wayne's brother in law from The Quiet Man.

Uh oh.....SOMEBODY just punched his own ticket to Alcatraz. I'd better throw myself on the mercy of the court.

[Track Phantom]

This is what happens when you have too many "customers" to appease.

It seems, from the track management view, trainers, owners and horseplayers are all customers. Guess who sits lowest on the totem pole?

[castaway01]

The only thing logical in the whole incident is the anger about MM's comments because at least that makes sense from someone trying to protect his livelihood. Even if my rider was awful, I wouldn't want someone to point it out either. But the idea he can be sued for giving his opinion? It's insane. Then the rest of the thread, if you include mac's story and some of the other stuff, is equally silly. Suing a commentator for doing his job? Not giving him the cold shoulder, but threatening a lawsuit? Then the trainer who had no idea that stats like the trainer's record with first-time starters were published? It's like they're all in a little bubble and have no clue the rest of the world is there.

[kingfin66]

I don't want to get too far into legal advice here, but settling on these facts would be ridiculous. This is an attempt to scare OP into shutting up, not to get money. Often times, a proactive legal strategy is very cost effective when someone does this.

My point is that right or wrong, a legal defense costs money, time, and stress. Often times, settling has less to do with legal facts and is more about saving time, money and stress. Lawsuits, even those that are not demanding large sums, can make life difficult for those involved.

[mountainman]

The only thing logical in the whole incident is the anger about MM's comments because at least that makes sense from someone trying to protect his livelihood. Even if my rider was awful, I wouldn't want someone to point it out either. But the idea he can be sued for giving his opinion? It's insane. Then the rest of the thread, if you include mac's story and some of the other stuff, is equally silly. Suing a commentator for doing his job? Not giving him the cold shoulder, but threatening a lawsuit? Then the trainer who had no idea that stats like the trainer's record with first-time starters were published? It's like they're all in a little bubble and have no clue the rest of the world is there.

Let me add something. I've occasionally plugged the guy's riders just a little-and at his behest. I'm a human being, and not averse to helping a jock get started if I see anything even REMOTELY praiseworthy.

[teddy]

Id turn up the heat ... nobody ever sues anybody but they all say they will. I remember a lawyer friend of mine said a guy came in to his office and wanted to sue a store because he was charged .50 too much for cigarettes. Dead serious he was going to score.

[dilanesp]

My point is that right or wrong, a legal defense costs money, time, and stress. Often times, settling has less to do with legal facts and is more about saving time, money and stress. Lawsuits, even those that are not demanding large sums, can make life difficult for those involved.

While those general bromides are true enough, they literally have nothing to do with this situation.

[castaway01]

Let me add something. I've occasionally plugged the guy's riders just a little-and at his behest. I'm a human being, and not averse to helping a jock get started if I see anything even REMOTELY praiseworthy.
I wasn't knocking you, or attempting to. You're totally in the right. I was just saying that as someone trying to make a living, I could at least understand that part. The rest of it, the lawsuit threat, that's all ridiculous. You've got to have some thick skin to do your job, no question.

[kingfin66]

While those general bromides are true enough, they literally have nothing to do with this situation.

General bromides? You just don't have it in your DNA to not be insulting do you. Your inane comment aside, my comment has plenty to do with the situation. Go alienate someone else assuming there is anybody left.

[mountainman]

I wasn't knocking you, or attempting to. You're totally in the right. I was just saying that as someone trying to make a living, I could at least understand that part. The rest of it, the lawsuit threat, that's all ridiculous. You've got to have some thick skin to do your job, no question.

I have always respected your opinions and didn't take your post as criticism.

But as far as "thick skin" is concerned, it's a work in progress. I used to take umbrage at any SUGGESTION that I wasn't phenomenal at my job.

However, at some point (sadly, not so very long ago), it finally dawned on me that I'm NOT the smartest guy in the room. And all the things I DON'T know began to appear as if some Klingon cloaking device had been disengaged. So I put that burden down and just endeavored to be the best Mark Patterson I can. And that made me a better analyst and a happier man. Please excuse the third person reference-there was no other way to phrase that sentence.

[dilanesp]

General bromides? You just don't have it in your DNA to not be insulting do you. Your inane comment aside, my comment has plenty to do with the situation. Go alienate someone else assuming there is anybody left.

King:

I am precluded by bar rules from giving legal advice in this situation.

But I AM allowed to say if something is wrong, and your statement about settling and buying this person off is utterly bad legal advice in this situation.

[ponyplayerdotca]

If the agent doesn't like anyone to point out that his client is atrocious at his craft, tell him to get better riders as clients.

If the rider doesn't like to hear criticisms about his abilities, get better at riding races.

If either of them are scared that their livelihoods are on the line, then get better at your job if you want to keep it. Otherwise, go get work at a restaurant or elsewhere to make ends meet like everyone else.

There's no law that says you get to be a jockey or an agent for your entire life just because. Your job security, like everybody elses, depends on sustained performance over a long period of time.

If you can't sustain your proficiency at your chosen career, there is no guarantee you'll continue to be gainfully employed in that career.

Mountainman, you've done nothing wrong. And he's an asshole, "wanting to protect his client or not" aside.

There are no tough people in the world anymore, only victims. F@%k me.

[EMD4ME]

If the agent doesn't like anyone to point out that his client is atrocious at his craft, tell him to get better riders as clients.

If the rider doesn't like to hear criticisms about his abilities, get better at riding races.

If either of them are scared that their livelihoods are on the line, then get better at your job if you want to keep it. Otherwise, go get work at a restaurant or elsewhere to make ends meet like everyone else.

There's no law that says you get to be a jockey or an agent for your entire life just because. Your job security, like everybody elses, depends on sustained performance over a long period of time.

If you can't sustain your proficiency at your chosen career, there is no guarantee you'll continue to be gainfully employed in that career.

Mountainman, you've done nothing wrong. And he's an asshole, "wanting to protect his client or not" aside.

There are no tough people in the world anymore, only victims. F@%k me.

Where have you been???? Please post more!!! :ThmbUp:

[HalvOnHorseracing]

A jock's agent has threatened to sue me for comments last week critical of his rider. The guy missed second narrowly, after which I remarked that he " looked awful on the horse, fell back every time the horse lunged forward, and had to contort his body and look back with every whip-strike-to hit the ass and make sure he didn't fall off. "

I further stated that the rider seemed to lack requisite professional skills.

Candor makes enemies.
Only one thing to tell the judge. I stand on the truth

Dr. Ray Stantz: Everything was fine with our system until the power grid was shut off by dickless here.
Walter Peck: They caused an explosion!
Mayor: Is this true?
Dr. Peter Venkman: Yes it's true.
[pause]
Dr. Peter Venkman: This man has no dick.

[bobphilo]

A jock's agent has threatened to sue me for comments last week critical of his rider. The guy missed second narrowly, after which I remarked that he " looked awful on the horse, fell back every time the horse lunged forward, and had to contort his body and look back with every whip-strike-to hit the ass and make sure he didn't fall off. "

I further stated that the rider seemed to lack requisite professional skills.

Candor makes enemies.

Good for you. If this guy wins this case every sports writer in the country will be in trouble.

[DeanT]

But threatening a lawsuit like some suburban nerd dad?

Holy cow I laughed at this.

Great thread Mark - despite some of the posts regarding your trials and tribulations. Eye-opening, and as always I wish you the best.

[GatetoWire]

Don't worry Mark!!
You haven't lived until someone threatens you for something you say or post.

I was personally threatened by a well-known trainers wife who said that if I didn't stop posting things on Twitter that she would inform my current employer about what I was saying and would try to get me fired.
Reminded me of the kind of thing Lance Armstrong would do!!! Made me think they had to be guilty. Especially because they were not going to sue me. Just try to get me fired.

Only in racing....of course they skated away from the scandal that they were facing at the time. Always wondered if they threatened or tried to intimidate anyone else.

[Donttellmeshowme]

Don't worry Mark!!
You haven't lived until someone threatens you for something you say or post.

I was personally threatened by a well-known trainers wife who said that if I didn't stop posting things on Twitter that she would inform my current employer about what I was saying and would try to get me fired.
Reminded me of the kind of thing Lance Armstrong would do!!! Made me think they had to be guilty. Especially because they were not going to sue me. Just try to get me fired.

Only in racing....of course they skated away from the scandal that they were facing at the time. Always wondered if they threatened or tried to intimidate anyone else.




Oh please do tell..

[mountainman]

Don't worry Mark!!
You haven't lived until someone threatens you for something you say or post.

I was personally threatened by a well-known trainers wife who said that if I didn't stop posting things on Twitter that she would inform my current employer about what I was saying and would try to get me fired.
Reminded me of the kind of thing Lance Armstrong would do!!! Made me think they had to be guilty. Especially because they were not going to sue me. Just try to get me fired.

Only in racing....of course they skated away from the scandal that they were facing at the time. Always wondered if they threatened or tried to intimidate anyone else.

The wet dream of any track's troublemakers is to get somebody fired.

Dispossessing someone of their job is ALWAYS the goal. A reprimand or black mark might satiate agents and trainers who continuously whine about track employees, but taking the person's livelihood away is the grand prize.

There are always owners and trainers, for instance, who scheme relentlessly to get the racing secretary fired-no matter how competent their target is. And some persist just for kicks, to enliven their day. And that's the absolute truth.

Other fun (and high value) targets range from the state vet, to the official starter, to the track superintendent....etc....etc...etc....

And were it a video game, the stewards would be worth 10,000 points.

[WP1981]

Don't worry Mark!!
You haven't lived until someone threatens you for something you say or post.

I was personally threatened by a well-known trainers wife who said that if I didn't stop posting things on Twitter that she would inform my current employer about what I was saying and would try to get me fired.
Reminded me of the kind of thing Lance Armstrong would do!!! Made me think they had to be guilty. Especially because they were not going to sue me. Just try to get me fired.

Only in racing....of course they skated away from the scandal that they were facing at the time. Always wondered if they threatened or tried to intimidate anyone else.

I see you've met Jill as well.. :lol:

[mountainman]

Now complaints that I "ruined a career" by remarking the other night that bug girl Nicole Disdier has some positive attributes, but also glaring weaknesses, and that her window might be closing faster than she suspects.

Maybe I could just join hands with Nancy and sing coca cola commercials all night. Or gush praise like Gome Pyle.

[bello]

" and that her window might be closing faster than she suspects."

I didn't hear these comments live but since you said them here, my unsolicited view.

The first part of your comments are fine and your observations which is why we listen and like your opinions. But the comment in quotes above is not really needed. If she does not win for owners and trainers, what happens will happen.

BTW, I would not touch Nicole when she started riding here just like I am careful not to play ant triple bug unless I see something good. Needless to say she won a few early that I did not have.

She appears weak when they go into a drive down the lane as many Mountaineer jockeys do. One male jock who I bet regularly actually looks even weaker but gets results.

Her asset seems to be in her hands and her ability to get along with some of the horses, so they keep running for her. I am mainly a horizontal bettor and I will put her on tickets. More han I can say for some of the regulars there and she is still learning.

[mountainman]

" and that her window might be closing faster than she suspects."

I didn't hear these comments live but since you said them here, my unsolicited view.

The first part of your comments are fine and your observations which is why we listen and like your opinions. But the comment in quotes above is not really needed. If she does not win for owners and trainers, what happens will happen.

BTW, I would not touch Nicole when she started riding here just like I am careful not to play ant triple bug unless I see something good. Needless to say she won a few early that I did not have.

She appears weak when they go into a drive down the lane as many Mountaineer jockeys do. One male jock who I bet regularly actually looks even weaker but gets results.

Her asset seems to be in her hands and her ability to get along with some of the horses, so they keep running for her. I am mainly a horizontal bettor and I will put her on tickets. More han I can say for some of the regulars there and she is still learning.

Nobody finishes more weakly than Disdier. Not even close..no legs, can't stick, and refuses to ride out out to the wire..just refuses. And, as far as the WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY goes, there seems to be some notion that as a bug girl, she's got all the time in the world to learn and catch on. Usually, that's not the case. She's going backwards and has lost business at a time when promising careers often GAIN momentum. Bad omen. And mark my words, she's going to get tagged sometime because she stopped riding with 3 jumps left.

History hints she's more likely to struggle, struggle mightily,as a journeyman than to have a successful career.

I do respect your opinions, appreciate the feedback, and enjoy your posts.

[bello]

Nobody finishes more weakly than Disdier. Not even close..no legs, can't stick., and refuses to ride out out to the wire..just refuses. And, as far as the WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY goes, there seems to be some notion that as a bug girl, she's got all the time in the world to learn and catch on. Usually, that's not the case. She's going backwards and has lost business at a time when promising careers often GAIN momentum. Bad omen. And mark my words, she's going to get tagged sometime because she stopped riding with 3 jumps left.

History hints she's more likely to struggle, struggle mightily,as a journeyman than to have a successful career.

I do respect your opinions, appreciate the feedback, and enjoy your posts.

thanks Mark.....Likewise for sure. Just an opinion, and the weaker riders will need to find new careers. That is the nature of the business...any business. Keep up the good work.

[Donttellmeshowme]

Nobody finishes more weakly than Disdier. Not even close..no legs, can't stick, and refuses to ride out out to the wire..just refuses. And, as far as the WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY goes, there seems to be some notion that as a bug girl, she's got all the time in the world to learn and catch on. Usually, that's not the case. She's going backwards and has lost business at a time when promising careers often GAIN momentum. Bad omen. And mark my words, she's going to get tagged sometime because she stopped riding with 3 jumps left.

History hints she's more likely to struggle, struggle mightily,as a journeyman than to have a successful career.

I do respect your opinions, appreciate the feedback, and enjoy your posts.




So shes an automatic throwout in the race? How many mounts does she usually get in a nite?

[pandy]

Nobody finishes more weakly than Disdier. Not even close..no legs, can't stick, and refuses to ride out out to the wire..just refuses. And, as far as the WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY goes, there seems to be some notion that as a bug girl, she's got all the time in the world to learn and catch on. Usually, that's not the case. She's going backwards and has lost business at a time when promising careers often GAIN momentum. Bad omen. And mark my words, she's going to get tagged sometime because she stopped riding with 3 jumps left.

History hints she's more likely to struggle, struggle mightily,as a journeyman than to have a successful career.

I do respect your opinions, appreciate the feedback, and enjoy your posts.


When she doesn't ride the horses out, if she wins, what's the difference? I only ask because I see a lot of riders whipping horses all the way to the wire when they don't have to. I've seen hundreds of horses take control under a hand ride and start to pull away and then the jockey goes to the whip for no reason.

If she gets caught on the wire after she stopped riding, that's different.

[mountainman]

When she doesn't ride the horses out, if she wins, what's the difference? I only ask because I see a lot of riders whipping horses all the way to the wire when they don't have to. I've seen hundreds of horses take control under a hand ride and start to pull away and then the jockey goes to the whip for no reason.

If she gets caught on the wire after she stopped riding, that's different.
Agree on unecessary whip. This is different. She's too lazy, or has some mental block about riding out to the wire and invariably stands up with a few jumps left. She's cut it close several times with those antics, and I doubt she has the judgement to know when it's safe. It's going to cost her dearly sometime.

[EMD4ME]

It's amazing, guy is doing his job with passion and he gets flack for it.

This pathetic politically correct, give out a participation award to underperformers world is a joke.

You keep up the great work Mark. If they don't like it, they should get better at what they do.

[mountainman]

Agree on unecessary whip. This is different. She's too lazy, or has some mental block about riding out to the wire and invariably stands up with a few jumps left. She's cut it close several times with those antics, and I doubt she has the judgement to know when it's safe. It's going to cost her dearly sometime.

Fine came down tonight: $500 for standing up before the wire.

Hopefully, she won't sue me in an effort to raise the cash.

[rrpic6]

Fine came down tonight: $500 for standing up before the wire.

Hopefully, she won't sue me in an effort to raise the cash.

I see Clouston is back. How long was he suspended for this time? Did that 99-1 shot that won race 9 last night sneak into his barn?

RR

[mountainman]

I see Clouston is back. How long was he suspended for this time? Did that 99-1 shot that won race 9 last night sneak into his barn?

RR

Route horse cutting back into an extremely speed-loaded race. Saved ground..inside bias..no way predictable in advance, but understandable after the fact..such is the stuff upsets are made of..

[EMD4ME]

Fine came down tonight: $500 for standing up before the wire.

Hopefully, she won't sue me in an effort to raise the cash.

Just gives more merit to your words. Good job :ThmbUp:

[bello]

I see Clouston is back. How long was he suspended for this time? Did that 99-1 shot that won race 9 last night sneak into his barn?

RR
Now you have Clouston training his own and Ates training for Helm.

Looks like entrymates to me.