Griffey hurt again

[sq764]

A few injuries is bad luck, but constant injuries is bad preparation, IMO..



http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20040711&content_id=795489&vkey=allstar2004&fext=.jsp

[cj]

I agree for the most part. I know he has been hurt many times, though I don't know the nature of all of his injuries.

If he has a history of hamstring problems, I'll give him somewhat of a pass on this one. Once you yank one really bad, it never is the same. All the stretching and exercise in the world won't eliminate the possibility of it recurring when on the dead run.

I know this from personal experience, and a leg that was black and blue from my ass to my ankle. I can run all day up and down the basketball court or tennis court, but dig hard on a grounder or take off scrambling in football, and trouble usually follows.

[sq764]

This year, he's been out of games for a knee injury, a shoulder injury, and more recently 5 games for a strained calf muscle.. All this in addition to the hamstring..

If it's the same injury, or even the same body part, sure it can be bad.. But come on.. This guy is just not taking care of himself in the offseason..

[cj]

Do you think Bonds will back out of the HR Derby now? He said he only agreed to participate when he was assured the other 500 HR Club members were in it as well.

[sq764]

I could care less if Bonds is in it, I hope not. He's a jerkoff..
He's bad for the game and a bad representative of what a professional athlete should be..

[chickenhead]

yeah, who'd want the best hitter in a hitting exhibition anyway....:D

[sq764]

how do you figure he is the best hitter?

[chickenhead]

Originally posted by sq764
how do you figure he is the best hitter?

his domination in every statistical category tipped me off.....keep it on the dl.

OK, I know you have someone else in mind, please don't say Jim Thome.

[sq764]

Domination in every statistical category? um, where?

He is not leading one major offensive category.. Not sure what he is dominating.. He has a great OB%, and tons of walks, a good average..

But he's not having quite the year a Manny Ramirez or Rolen or Guerrero is:

Ramirez: .344, 26 HR, 77 RBI, .487 OB%
Rolen: .344, 18 HR. 80 RBI
Guererro: .345, 20 HR, 77 RBI

And I know Bonds has less ABs than someone like Rolen, but if you project out their AB difference (189 vs 289), (Which isn't realistic anyway, but for fun do it anyway), Bonds would be in the mid 70's in RBIs..

No doubt Bonds is a very good hitter, but he is not dominating in every statistical category.. Frankly he is not dominating in hardly any statistical category..

[chickenhead]

RBI's....considering neither Bonds nor Rolen or anyone else controls whether anyone is on base in front of them, maybe I'm a contrarian, but RBI's aren't an individual measure.

You seem to think RBI's make up for the fact Bonds dominates all those listed in pretty much every meaningful category.

Slugging Percentage: Off the charts
On Base Percentage: Off the charts (almost higher than highest non Bonds SLUGGING percentage)
BA: Best in NL
HR per AB: I'm guessing he's first in MLB
BB: Off the Charts
Strike Outs: Ridiculously Low for a power hitter

Do you know out of 77 games he has failed to reach base in only 2 of them? That is domination. No two ways about it.

Your arguments are weak!

But Bonds does benefit from having the mighty Marquis Grissom batting behind him.........

[sq764]

Well, I showed you the stats, if you want to disagree with facts, knock yourself out.

If facts are weak, go argue with Secretariat, and have fun.

[sq764]

"...maybe I'm a contrarian, but RBI's aren't an individual measure"

I don't think you are a contrarian, I just don't think you understand how important this stat is.

If it wasn't important, it wouldn't be included in the Triple Crown..

(And by the way, Bonds has Alfonso hitting behind him. Rolen has Edmonds.. Edmonds and Alfonso have almost identical batting averages. Not sure of the intended point there)

[chickenhead]

so you admit that RBI's aren't an individual measure, yet you use it as your main justification to say that Bonds is not the best individual hitter?

what other category does Bonds not lead all those others you listed?

Home Runs?

HR/AB he dominates all others. What else is there? I'm still waiting to see your facts, you haven't shown me anything yet.

[chickenhead]

time for dinner now....good discussion SQ, btw Bonds will be in the HR derby.

[sq764]

You say: "so you admit that RBI's aren't an individual measure, yet you use it as your main justification to say that Bonds is not the best individual hitter? "

Where did I say RBI's aren't an individual measure?? I said they are crucial, that is why they are included in the Triple Crown..

[chickenhead]

SQ,

Do you beleive total RBI's are a measure of individual hitting or slugging ability?

if yes, please explain considering a player could logically have 1/2 or less RBI opportunities than another throughout the course of a season through no fault of his own.

if no, please explain how those others you listed could possibly be listed above Bonds, considering RBI's are the only meaningful category they lead him in.

[sq764]

they lead him in HR's and RBI's.. (2/3 of the Triple Crown, if you were not aware)..

[chickenhead]

why not answer my question?

[sq764]

Your question makes no sense, since your no portion is not true. Get your facts straight, then I can answer you. Until then, it's tough to address a question with wrong information.

[Valuist]

There is a theory that Griffey's injuries could be tied to steroid use. It is a fact that steroid use can lead to chronic muscle pulls and tears. We all know that Bonds, Sosa, McGwire and Giambi were on them, why not Griff Jr?

[chickenhead]

"Your question makes no sense, since your no portion is not true. Get your facts straight, then I can answer you. Until then, it's tough to address a question with wrong information."

Manny 26 HR in 314 AB 1HR/12AB
Bonds 23 HR in 189 AB 1HR/8AB

Are these the facts I left out? Is this the information you plan to make your case on?

You say "they lead him" in 2/3 of the triple crown, Manny leads him, although I think the numbers speak for themselves as to who is having a more dominate year in regards to HR.

Bonds leads the other two you listed in 2/3 of the triple crown.

You want to keep up with this rope-a-dope you're running, or just admit that you're wrong?

[SAL]

I agree with chickenhead here. If Bonds was pitched to more often, his stats would be comparable to the other best hitters in baseball.

He would definitely be leading the league in rbi's if he were not intentionally walked so often. He is the only hitter I've ever seen intentionally walked with the bases loaded.

No other batter in the Major Leagues is as feared as Bonds is. Take a poll of the managers, I think they would confirm this.

[sq764]

He doesn't lead in 2/3 of the triple crown, are you using your own numbers?

[cj]

There is more to this game than numbers. Bonds, whether you love him, hate him, or somewhere in between, is the greatest hitter in the game. Its not even close.

[chickenhead]

Yawn. Show me where I said that SQ.

[sq764]

Chicken, did you not just say this:

"Bonds leads the other two you listed in 2/3 of the triple crown."

[chickenhead]

yes, he leads 2 out of the 3 you listed in the majority of TC categories. Using your numbers. BA and HR.

[sq764]

CJ, you have to have more of an open mind.. Bonds is not the greatest hitter in baseball, please...

He's probably the best power hitter in baseball right now, sure..

Then again, until someone leads every single offensive category, it's all speculation as to who the best hitter is..

One could say Pudge Rodriguez is the best hitter in baseball right now. He does have the highest avg.. Do I think he is? Not really..

[cj]

I think he is the greatest hitter in baseball today because of the fear pitchers show by constantly walking him. No other player gets that kind of respect from Major League pitchers, now, or at any time in the past.

[sq764]

That's your rationale for the greatest hitter?? HAHA.. Good one, keep the laughs coming.

Do you think he'd have half as many walks if he hit in front of Manny Ramirez or Jim Thome or Rolen or Pudge or Tejada?? NO..

They walk him because there is not much else on that team that can be feared.

It's not fear, it's smart baseball, plain and simple..

[sq764]

CJ, in 1927, Babe Ruth walked 137 times, even though he hit 60 homeruns.. Any idea why he didn't walk more?

Let's see.. MAYBE, because there was this dude named Lou Gherig that hit behind him, who hit .373 with 47 homeruns and 175 RBIs that year..

How many times you think Ruth may have walked if, let's say, you put, oh, Edgardo Alfonso in place of Lou Gherig?

Or take the opposite scenario.. How many times would Bonds be walked this year if Lou Gherig hit behind him? How many intentional walks?? How about none??

[chickenhead]

CJ doesn't want to drink your funky ass Kool Aid SQ.

Bonds' numbers are far and away the best in baseball when viewed in context and in totality.

Just because you hate him, that shouldn't stop you from admitting this. I hate Kobe Bryant as a player, that doesn't keep me from admitting he is the best 2 guard in the league right now.

[sq764]

Your funky ass coolaid? Are you related to Derek2u??

Bonds numbers are not the best in baseball, whether you take the for what they are or you average them out per at bat. Sorry.. If you want to believe in your mind that they are, go nuts my man..

[sq764]

If you put Bonds number in proportion to 309 at bats (comparable player's 4-hole at bats at this point in the season), he would project out to 36 HR and 76 RBI.

So, he would be leading MLB in 1 category - Homeruns..

36 homeruns is fantastic, serious.. But to say his stats are 'far and away' better than anyone else in baseball is just a ridiculous statement, when he would only lead 1 category..

[SAL]

You can't always look at the pure numbers ALL THE TIME.

When pitchers don't intentionally walk him, they don't give him much to hit either. In one game against the Dodgers they showed a graphic that showed he saw something like 25 pitches, and 21 of them were balls. Rarely does he get challenged.

To do what he's doing when he does see a decent pitch is remarkable.

[chickenhead]

with your HR projections

MLB rank

2nd in BA
1st in SLG
1st in OBP
1st in HR


those numbers taken in totality don't out him head and shoulders above the rest? You crazy mang! And your RBI projections don't mean squat, he is not pitched to RBI situations, so you can't project from his numbers...

If you want to argue that the sun rises in the West for your next act, let me know, and we can continue, I'm about worn out on this subject.

[sq764]

Manny Ramirez:

7th in BA
2nd in HR
3rd in RBI
2nd in Slugging %
4th in OB%


And I love the continued excuses as to why he doesn't have many RBI's.. Pitchers don't pitch to good hitters when they don't have to.. Do you ever even watch baseball at all? By your statements, it doesn't appear that you do..

Look at Adam Dunn.. This guy has 69 walks and he is hitting .263!

[cj]

Ask the GMs of baseball who they want on their team, Barry or Manny for one season, right now. Since both are pretty much jerks, it will come down to ability. I would bet Bonds wins by at least 15.

[sq764]

Unfortunately, we will never know the answer to that..

Oddly, they both have a lot of common traits..

They're both individuals who only care about themselves.

They are both jackasses

They both are hated by a good portion of their teammates and by MLB as a whole

They both are lazy as hell sometimes

They both put up big offensive numbers year in and year out.

Not sure that manny is on steroids though, only difference.

[chickenhead]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sq764
Manny Ramirez:

7th in BA
2nd in HR
3rd in RBI
2nd in Slugging %
4th in OB%


and I presume your point must be that Bonds is kicking his ass, since that is all that data shows?

[/B]
Pitchers don't pitch to good hitters when they don't have to..
[/B]

Which is exactly why total number of RBI's is not a meaningful measure of ability or performance. Thank you for so eloquently proving my point.

[Valuist]

Ramirez has never stolen 40 bases in a season or won a Gold Glove. Bonds may not be the 5 tool player he used to be but he's a far more complete player than Ramirez.

[sq764]

"Which is exactly why total number of RBI's is not a meaningful measure of ability or performance. Thank you for so eloquently proving my point."

Ahh, spin,i love it..

The point that you miss is that if they pitch around good hitters and they still put up 77 RBI's so far, they must be a hell of a hitter..

I guess baseball historians should listen to you and just disregard the RBI portion of someone's statistics.. Ted Williams should not have won the triple crown, since he only led the league in BA, HRs and RBIs.. He may not have led in OB% or walks or intentional walks..

Dude, get a clue..

[sq764]

Valuist, we are not talking of the best all around player, only hitter..

Best all around players would not include either of these 2.. They would be way down the list..

[chickenhead]

if they are pitching around them, then they are too stupid to realize it, because it is surely not reflected by their OBP.

And yes, I admit it, Hack Wilson is the greatest ballplayer of all time.

[cj]

My Top 5 all time players, just to stir the pot.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ted Williams
3. Willie Mays
4. Frank Robinson
5. Barry Bonds

[sq764]

You put Bonds ahead of Mickey Mantle??

Good Lord, that is laughable..

[cj]

You are laughable. Was Mantle better? Maybe. Is it possible Bonds is better? Any reasonable person would think so.

Mantle didn't play long enough in my opinion. Bonds will be the All Time Home Run leader if he so chooses. I would put Aaron before Mantle as well.

[sq764]

Now why would you go insulting me? I didn't insult you..Because I have a different opinion than you? You sound more like Secretariat every day.. That's not good.

Mantle played 18 years!! And he didn't get to play longer because he had 2 bad knees (and was a raging alcoholic)..

[cj]

I didn't insult you any more than your typical "You obviously never saw..." or all your other smartass comments. I'll go find a list if you like. Saying a statement of mine is "laughable" is the same thing to me. If you took it differently, get over yourself.

Its not Bonds' fault Mick was an alcoholic and had bad knees. He played 18 years, but the latter part of his career wasn't much, and he was playing 1b.

[sq764]

500+ homeruns, almost a .300 career hitter, possibly the best defensive centerfielder ever, in the Hall of Fame.. And you knock on him is that he 'only' played 18 years??

Maybe if Mantle knew the same 'supplement' contacts Bonds knew, he would have hit 850 homeruns.. We'll never know..

Too bad Bonds won't be able to walk at 50, let alone play with his kids.. Sad to sacrifice so much to be a star..

[Valuist]

The one omission I noticed was A-Rod. Bonds may break Aaron's record but A-Rod will fly past all of them by the time he's done playing.

[cj]

Originally posted by sq764
500+ homeruns, almost a .300 career hitter, possibly the best defensive centerfielder ever, in the Hall of Fame.. And you knock on him is that he 'only' played 18 years??

Maybe if Mantle knew the same 'supplement' contacts Bonds knew, he would have hit 850 homeruns.. We'll never know..

Too bad Bonds won't be able to walk at 50, let alone play with his kids.. Sad to sacrifice so much to be a star..

I'm sure alcohol and supplements would be a great mix.

In the same number of years, Bonds has 681 home runs, average of 299, 1760 RBIs, 503 steals, a 439 OBP, and and a 794 slugging percentage.

Mantle had 536 HR (-155 and counting), batted 298 (a wash), 1509 RBI (-251 and counting), 153 steals (-350), 421 OBP (-18), and a 557 slugging percentage (-237).

Mantle was a better fielder in his prime, but Bonds is no slouch, having won several gold gloves. Bonds is the better hitter, and base running is no contest.

Bonds' OBP this year is a mind boggling 628! He already has the season record at 582, and the next closest is Ted Williams at 551.

Mantle's last four years were very mediocre. He had WAY better hitters batting around him in the lineup.

Case Closed.

[sq764]

CJ, as usual, you are only telling half the story..

Mantle only played 144 games per year back then.. You are comparing Bonds numbers to Mantle's when you fail to acknowledge that, in 18 years:

Bonds played in 245 more games than Mantle did..

Bonds had 812 more at bats than Mantle..

At least compare apples to apples, don't selectively leave out important parts..

[cj]

So he would have been a little closer in HRs and RBIs. Not to mention had they played 162, he may not have lasted 18 years.

I agree he was at least as talented as Bonds, but he pissed a lot of that talent away.

[sq764]

And in reality, it's impossible to compare stats from 1950's to now.. If Babe Ruth played in tiny ballparks all year long, he would have hit 1,000 homeruns..

If Bonds had to face Koufax, who would drill his ass in a second, he would have never hit 70 homeruns.

If the players from the 50's had the weight lifting knowledge and access the players do now, what would that have done for their longevity and fitness?

[chickenhead]

My top 5 players most often left off of top 5 players list

Cobb
Aaron
Musial
Gehrig
Rose

[sq764]

My top 5 are:

Ruth
Mantle
Gehrig
Mays
Aaron

Top 5 pitchers

Koufax
Gibson
Spahn
Ryan
Carlton

Top couple that would have been higher if they played longer

Clemente
Puckett

[Bubbles]

Seeing as how everyone's giving lists...

My Top Five...

Ruth
Mays
Williams
Aaron
Musial

Honorable Mentions...

Rose
Gehrig
Clemente
Carew
Banks

Top Five Pitchers...

Koufax
Gibson
Young (511 wins, how could you have left him out, SQ?)
Walter Johnson
Carlton

Honorable Mentions...

Seaver
Feller
Marichal
Ryan
Spahn

[chickenhead]

ok, my list....

top 5 non pitchers

Ruth
Williams
Cobb
Aaron
Gehrig

honorable mention
Josh Gibson
Willie Mays

top 5 pitchers
Young
Gibson
Spahn
Koufax
Tom Seaver

honorable mention
Satchel Paige
Steve Carlton

[Valuist]

My top 5:

1. Ruth- don't forget he was a 20 game winner as well as homering more than some teams
2. Mays- could do it all
3. Ted Williams- he may have had the HR record if he didn't have several years taken away by the war
4. A-Rod-by the time he's done, he'll have over 800 home runs, and he hit quite a few of them while playing the toughest position
5. Bonds- hard to deny him the top 5. 500 HRs/500 steals

honorable mention: Musial, Aaron, Cobb

pitchers (1960 and beyond)
1. Koufax
2. Gibson
3. Palmer
4. Marichal
5. tie-Randy Johnson and Pedro

[sq764]

Valuist, good list, but I have to STRONGLY disagree that shortstop is the toughest position..

Catching is by far the most difficult position.. This is the reason that you see good defensive catchers lasting forever in the league