Nagasaki bombing anniversary -- 8,500 Christians killed

[highnote]

I had never known that the atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki had killed so many Christians -- about 8,500.

A Christian cathedral was one of the few identifiable landmarks at 31,000 feet and was used as a ground-zero target.

Interesting links:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/nagasaki-anniversary-how-a-christian-cathedral-built-following-centuries-of-persecution-was-10446974.html

https://consortiumnews.com/2016/08/09/christianity-and-the-nagasaki-bomb/

[barahona44]

I'm going to the Land of the Rising Sun in October and have been reading up on it.Nagasaki was the first city in Japan that the West (specifically Portugal) encountered and from what I understand is the most 'westernized' city in Japan as far as things like architecture, religion and cuisine are concerned.Nagasaki is still about 3 percent Christian today, while Japan is about 1 %.

[Dave Schwartz]

Barahona,

It is a wonderful place. The people are amazing.

There is like no crime. I went to the "WINS" (equivalent to a "race book, 8 floors with 125 ticket writers per floor) with my client carrying $750,000 in an Adidas bag! After he picked up his money, the bag had $2m in it!

People leave their umbrellas outside the grocery story in racks. Nobody steals them!

I doubt that you could buy a bike lock if you wanted to.

Check out the price of things in the grocery store. When I was there (July 2002, at the World Cup, coincidentally) I was shocked to find celery was sold in a 2-stalk package for about $2 USD. That's not two HEADS, but two PIECES!

You're just going to have a great time. Please send pictures.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

PS: No chicken breasts at KFC. That was really strange.

PPS: Take the time to go to Mt. Fuji.

[ReplayRandall]

I went to the "WINS" (equivalent to a "race book, 8 floors with 125 ticket writers per floor) with my client carrying $750,000 in an Adidas bag! After he picked up his money, the bag had $2m in it!

When I was there (July 2002, at the World Cup, coincidentally).

Just curious, but do you still have that client, or was it a one-time arrangement back in 2002?

[Tom]

Far more Christian lives were saved.
The japs were animals and left us no choice.
It was, in retrospect, a no-brainer.

[highnote]

Far more Christian lives were saved.
The japs were animals and left us no choice.
It was, in retrospect, a no-brainer.

That is debatable. The Russians were a couple of days away from invading Japan also. The U.S. was aware of that and didn't want Russia to share the occupation or dictate the terms of surrender. It is likely the US felt a sense of urgency. But that's war. To the victor go the spoils. If you're going to start a war you better finish it or be willing to accept the consequences.

[Tom]

Best way to avoid annihilation is not to sneak attack your betters.
So sorry.

[Dave Schwartz]

Just curious, but do you still have that client, or was it a one-time arrangement back in 2002?

We agreed to part ways a few months later. He was the most unpleasant human being I have ever met. Sometimes money is just not enough.

(Please note he was a westerner, as are most racing people in Hong Kong and Japan.)

[ronsmac]

I had never known that the atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki had killed so many Christians -- about 8,500.

A Christian cathedral was one of the few identifiable landmarks at 31,000 feet and was used as a ground-zero target.

Interesting links:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/nagasaki-anniversary-how-a-christian-cathedral-built-following-centuries-of-persecution-was-10446974.html

https://consortiumnews.com/2016/08/09/christianity-and-the-nagasaki-bomb/A Christian friend of mine would pawn it off to God's will. He uses that line all the time.

[Johnny V]

That is debatable. The Russians were a couple of days away from invading Japan also. The U.S. was aware of that and didn't want Russia to share the occupation or dictate the terms of surrender. It is likely the US felt a sense of urgency. But that's war. To the victor go the spoils. If you're going to start a war you better finish it or be willing to accept the consequences.
Dropping those atomic bombs saved a lot of American and Allied lives and even many more Japanese lives as well. If Japan had not surrendered and the invasion gone forward they would have been finished as a nation with tremendous losses in military and civilian casualties. I think I remember reading somewhere that we were possibly planning to drop 8 more atomic bombs as part of an invasion plan spread over the course of the expected long extended military campaign with the second later invasion coming ashore on the second main island near Tokyo. Not many at the time would have really known for sure what the short and long term resulting consequences of using those weapons and the aftermath of the invasion with a possible divided Japan with Russian and Allied zones may have been. It has always been an interesting controversial debated issue among historians and an interesting part of US history.

[elysiantraveller]

Dropping those atomic bombs saved a lot of American and Allied lives and even many more Japanese lives as well. If Japan had not surrendered and the invasion gone forward they would have been finished as a nation with tremendous losses in military and civilian casualties. I think I remember reading somewhere that we were possibly planning to drop 8 more atomic bombs as part of an invasion plan spread over the course of the expected long extended military campaign with the second later invasion coming ashore on the second main island near Tokyo. Not many at the time would have really known for sure what the short and long term resulting consequences of using those weapons and the aftermath of the invasion with a possible divided Japan with Russian and Allied zones may have been. It has always been an interesting controversial debated issue among historians and an interesting part of US history.

The bombings were largely unnecessary to bring about the end of the war. Japan planned to surrender after Soviet entrance. They were largely dropped as a precursor to force an end that would be more favorable to the United States and less likely to allow Soviet expansion.

[highnote]

The bombings were largely unnecessary to bring about the end of the war. Japan planned to surrender after Soviet entrance. They were largely dropped as a precursor to force an end that would be more favorable to the United States and less likely to allow Soviet expansion.

Japan probably benefited economically in the long run under the US. Life would have been harsher under Russia's rule.

[Hank]

The bombings were largely unnecessary to bring about the end of the war. Japan planned to surrender after Soviet entrance. They were largely dropped as a precursor to force an end that would be more favorable to the United States and less likely to allow Soviet expansion.

It was completely unnecessary militarily.It was purely a political decision. The entire US military command was against it.


"...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing." GEN. DWIGHT EISENHOWER

"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. ADMIRAL WILLIAM D. LEAHY

"There was no military justification for the dropping of the bomb." GENERAL DOUGLAS MacARTHUR

[elysiantraveller]

Japan probably benefited economically in the long run under the US. Life would have been harsher under Russia's rule.

Wouldn't have been under Soviet rule. But most of Manchuria might have been.

[elysiantraveller]

It was completely unnecessary militarily.It was purely a political decision. The entire US military command was against it.


"...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing." GEN. DWIGHT EISENHOWER

"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. ADMIRAL WILLIAM D. LEAHY

"There was no military justification for the dropping of the bomb." GENERAL DOUGLAS MacARTHUR

Very little disagreement on my side.

[TJDave]

I had never known that the atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki had killed so many Christians -- about 8,500.

The firebombing of Dresden was a case of Christians killing Christians.

[Jess Hawsen Arown]

It was completely unnecessary militarily.It was purely a political decision. The entire US military command was against it.


"...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing." GEN. DWIGHT EISENHOWER

"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. ADMIRAL WILLIAM D. LEAHY

"There was no military justification for the dropping of the bomb." GENERAL DOUGLAS MacARTHUR

Obviously the entire military command was not against it or the Missouri haberdasher would never have authorized its use.

Eisenhower first learned of the bombs while at his military headquarters in Europe. While we all respect him as a general, his entire attention was the war against Germany and might not have been the best authority to understand the kamikaze mentality of the Japanese. Nazis did not kamikaze.

As for MacArthur, he hated Truman for his humiliating firing and would automatically disagree with anything Truman did. Admiral Leahy was a voice against the use of the bombs within the Truman administration. He was not alone in that view, but from what I have read he was not part of the majority.

In my opinion, the Japanese would have fought to their last breath if we invaded their homeland and hundreds of thousands more Japanese, Americans, Australians, etc. would have died.

The Japanese are our friends, today, but not then. It offends my senses when people ignore the horrors of Pearl Harbor as if it was nothing when they talk about ending a war with a people who used kamikaze the way the terrorists use suicide belts today. IMO, we are all here today because of the courageous act of President Harry Truman.

[VigorsTheGrey]

The firebombing of Dresden was a case of Christians killing Christians.
Was it the case of catholics burning up protestants if I remember right? Or just non specified Christians burning same? Wasn't Dresden largely Protestant?

[highnote]

The firebombing of Dresden was a case of Christians killing Christians.

WWI, WWII, and even the Battle of Hastings in 1066 were cases of Christians killing Christians.

I started the thread not to criticize, but because I thought it was interesting that there was a large population of Christians in Nagasaki and that their church was used as a ground-zero target because it was recognizable from the air. I thought others might be interested in the historical aspect and thought that it might be an interesting topic of conversation.

[VigorsTheGrey]

WWI, WWII, and even the Battle of Hastings in 1066 were cases of Christians killing Christians.

I started the thread not to criticize, but because I thought it was interesting that there was a large population of Christians in Nagasaki and that their church was used as a ground-zero target because it was recognizable from the air. I thought others might be interested in the historical aspect and thought that it might be an interesting topic of conversation.

If there were no Christians killed in Nagasaki, would you somehow feel differently about the legitimacy (need for) of the bombing? But it is an interest thought that Christians would countenance killing other Christians for any reason, perhaps our leaders (Truman was it?) who authorized the bombing felt the human trade-off was acceptable..kind of like Madeline Albright's comment, I think it was, when referring to the human cost of the Iraqi wars...I am assuming that Truman was a Christian but maybe he was a Deist, like many of our founding fathers were....

[highnote]

If there were no Christians killed in Nagasaki, would you somehow feel differently about the legitimacy (need for) of the bombing?

Nope. I'd feel the same. But that wasn't the point of the thread. I was just unaware there were native Japanese who were practicing Christians in Japan during WWII.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Nope. I'd feel the same. But that wasn't the point of the thread. I was just unaware there were native Japanese who were practicing Christians in Japan during WWII.

But why is the unawareness striking for you...

There were probably some Buddists as well, along with other minorities...

I admit the thought of Christians dying there also never occurred to me either, until you mentioned it, so maybe it is the pure non-directed novelty of that fact, that is driving the curiosity...without any messy moral considerations involved..

[highnote]

But why is the unawareness striking for you...

There were probably some Buddists as well, along with other minorities...

I admit the thought of Christians dying there also never occurred to me either, until you mentioned it, so maybe it is the pure non-directed novelty of that fact, that is driving the curiosity...without any messy moral considerations involved..

It was striking to me because I was ignorant of the fact that there were Christians in Japan during WWII. Also, given the fact that it was a small minority of people, I found it ironic that the church this small minority built was large enough to be an easily identifiable object from the air, and thus became a ground-zero target. The Christian community in Nagasaki had been persecuted for centuries. Surely, some of these Christians must have questioned their beliefs after having a nuke dropped on them!

My interest was piqued by this small bit of WWII history and thought others might find it interesting.

[VigorsTheGrey]

It was striking to me because I was ignorant of the fact that there were Christians in Japan during WWII. Also, given the fact that it was a small minority of people, I found it ironic that the church this small minority built was large enough to be an easily identifiable object from the air, and thus became a ground-zero target. The Christian community in Nagasaki had been persecuted for centuries. Surely, some of these Christians must have questioned their beliefs after having a nuke dropped on them!

My interest was piqued by this small bit of WWII history and thought others might find it interesting.

I wonder if they put the Christians in internment camps like we did the Japanese? I never really asked that question to anyone before. I wonder if anyone here at PA knows that one.....?

[VigorsTheGrey]

[QUOTE=highnote]It was striking to me because I was ignorant of the fact that there were Christians in Japan during WWII. Also, given the fact that it was a small minority of people, I found it ironic that the church this small minority built was large enough to be an easily identifiable object from the air, and thus became a ground-zero target. The Christian community in Nagasaki had been persecuted for centuries. Surely, some of these Christians must have questioned their beliefs after having a nuke dropped on them!

My interest was piqued by this small bit of WWII history and thought others might find it interesting.[/QUOTE

If any did have questions at that point the only one who could hear them would be St. Peter....being at ground zero.

[Hank]

Obviously the entire military command was not against it or the Missouri haberdasher would never have authorized its use.

Eisenhower first learned of the bombs while at his military headquarters in Europe. While we all respect him as a general, his entire attention was the war against Germany and might not have been the best authority to understand the kamikaze mentality of the Japanese. Nazis did not kamikaze.

As for MacArthur, he hated Truman for his humiliating firing and would automatically disagree with anything Truman did. Admiral Leahy was a voice against the use of the bombs within the Truman administration. He was not alone in that view, but from what I have read he was not part of the majority.

In my opinion, the Japanese would have fought to their last breath if we invaded their homeland and hundreds of thousands more Japanese, Americans, Australians, etc. would have died.

The Japanese are our friends, today, but not then. It offends my senses when people ignore the horrors of Pearl Harbor as if it was nothing when they talk about ending a war with a people who used kamikaze the way the terrorists use suicide belts today. IMO, we are all here today because of the courageous act of President Harry Truman.

I see,your opinion is contrary to that of the Supreme Allied Commander and you think "you" are correct...interesting.Clearly believing the official government mythology is very important to your Psychological well being so perhaps you should stop reading here...The decision to nuke Hiroshima was made by Harry S. Truman and Secretary of State James F. Byrnes.They did it to gain leverage over Stalin because the red army was preparing to crush
the Japanese occupation forces in China and Manchuria this would have forced Japan to surrender, strengthening Russia's post war position, Truman and Byrnes saw the Bomb as a means of taking the play away from Stalin and intimidating Him at the upcoming post war negotiations.This was a purely political calculation and a foolhardy one at that.We released a Genie from the bottle that we will bitterly regret one day.

[MONEY]

If any did have questions at that point the only one who could hear them would be St. Peter....being at ground zero.
I read this a couple of times, and I think your remark is just a little bigoted.
Like somehow you find pleasure that some of the believers may have had time to pray to a nonexistent god just before their painful ends.

[VigorsTheGrey]

I read this a couple of times, and I think your remark is just a little bigoted.
Like somehow you find pleasure that some of the believers may have had time to pray to a nonexistent god just before their painful ends.

Think what you wish...I do not find pleasure in the suffering of other human beings...those are your words you have penned above...not mine...please do not attempt to place your words in my mouth...

If it was me, I would never have dropped atomic bombs on anyone, and If I were a god, I would not have allowed it...I am no fan of Truman...I think it was this country's biggest tragedy to date....

[Tom]

Better to let over a million others die in battle than drop the bomb?

[elysiantraveller]

Better to let over a million others die in battle than drop the bomb?

The Japanese were not going to hold out to the start of Operation Downfall. The Soviets were going to begin their Manchurian Push and we wanted to limit their gains. Hence the Bomb.

[JustRalph]

I see,your opinion is contrary to that of the Supreme Allied Commander and you think "you" are correct...interesting.Clearly believing the official government mythology is very important to your Psychological well being so perhaps you should stop reading here...The decision to nuke Hiroshima was made by Harry S. Truman and Secretary of State James F. Byrnes.They did it to gain leverage over Stalin because the red army was preparing to crush
the Japanese occupation forces in China and Manchuria this would have forced Japan to surrender, strengthening Russia's post war position, Truman and Byrnes saw the Bomb as a means of taking the play away from Stalin and intimidating Him at the upcoming post war negotiations.This was a purely political calculation and a foolhardy one at that.We released a Genie from the bottle that we will bitterly regret one day.

Even if you stipulate what you say is true, good for Truman. He had two reasons to do it. He showed something very few politicians ever do. Foresight

[elysiantraveller]

Even if you stipulate what you say is true, good for Truman. He had two reasons to do it. He showed something very few politicians ever do. Foresight

Maybe.

Its a hard thing to speculate on. Monday morning quarterbacking leads me to think they unnecessary in achieving our long term strategic goals in the region. Mao still defeated Kai-shek and Korea still happened. But I have the advantage of hindsight. Not sure I would have acted differently in the moment.

[PaceAdvantage]

It was completely unnecessary militarily.It was purely a political decision. The entire US military command was against it.


"...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing." GEN. DWIGHT EISENHOWER

"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. ADMIRAL WILLIAM D. LEAHY

"There was no military justification for the dropping of the bomb." GENERAL DOUGLAS MacARTHURI guess Trump was President back then...

[highnote]

Maybe the use of nukes on Japan was similar to what Gen. Sherman did in the Civil War in his march to Atlanta and then back up to Virginia.

Here is a good summary of his conquest:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/08/13/the-man-who-created-modern-war.html

“We cannot change the hearts of those people of the South,” Sherman explained to Grant, “but we can make war so terrible… [and] make them so sick of war that generations will pass away before they would again appeal to it.” Major Henry Hitchcock, an Alabaman on Sherman’s staff, fleshed out his commander’s rationale for the operation nicely when he wrote that if the “terror, grief and even want” the army was about to inflict on the people of Georgia “shall help paralyze their husbands and fathers who are fighting us … it is mercy in the end.”

No one knows how many Southerners were killed by Sherman’s army as it ripped out the innards of Georgia and the Carolinas, but contemporary historians all agree that it was not very many.

Ironically, Sherman has been reviled by generations of Southerners—and no small number of historians—for practicing a kind of war that eschewed conventional combat, and the conventional fighting in the Civil War was enormously destructive of human life. Until the end of his life in 1891, William Tecumseh Sherman remained unapologetic for his final campaigns of the Civil War. He had done what he had to do to bring the war to a close as soon as possible, and save the Union. That was what mattered to Uncle Billy above all else, and his contribution to that accomplishment was enormous. “If the people raise a howl against my barbarity and cruelty,” wrote Sherman, “I will answer that war is war, and not popularity seeking.”

[Tall One]

If you're going to start a war you better finish it or be willing to accept the consequences.


Exactly...after bringing us in the war with Pearl Harbor, they got what they deserved.

Just wish we could've dropped three..

[highnote]

Exactly...after bringing us in the war with Pearl Harbor, they got what they deserved.

Just wish we could've dropped three..

I wish they would have surrendered before it was necessary to drop the first one. Think about all the innocent children and others who must have died horrible deaths. Thank God only two were used.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

I wish they would have surrendered before it was necessary to drop the first one. Think about all the innocent children and others who must have died horrible deaths. Thank God only two were used.
At the time, two was all we had. The process of assembling a third, fat-man type bomb was underway, but it was weeks from reality, and at that time we were some time away from creating additional plutonium for more bombs. Of course it was critical that the Japanese believed we had perhaps a dozen bombs and that Tokyo was the likely next target.

The story of Enrico Fermi and the first nuclear reactor is a fascinating read. I actually got to tour Reactor B at the Hanford site, the first operating nuclear reactor, built to Fermi's specifications. The story of how the Hanford site was built is an equally fascinating story. If anyone ever has a chance to tour the site, I'd highly recommend it. There is an interesting area where all the nuclear engines from mothballed ships and submarines are stored. There is also a vitrification plant under construction that will blend nuclear waste with glass making materials and produce stable glass cylinders that are supposed to be stable and impervious to the environment. You can see where they actually encapsulated the C and D reactors, literally burying them under concrete. A lot of history at that site.

[Tom]

MacArthur had 25 more on back-order.

[GaryG]

The bomb would almost surely not have been operational at that time without the help of Einstein. The only reason he was involved was because he thought it was for use on Hitler. I don't see how anyone can complain about Harry S dropping those two. The war could have dragged on and on. When you feel sorry for the Japanese just remember the death marches and torture. They got what they deserved and the war was over.

[highnote]

The bomb would almost surely not have been operational at that time without the help of Einstein. The only reason he was involved was because he thought it was for use on Hitler. I don't see how anyone can complain about Harry S dropping those two. The war could have dragged on and on. When you feel sorry for the Japanese just remember the death marches and torture. They got what they deserved and the war was over.

What is wrong with feeling sorry for innocent children who were died, suffered, or lost their families in the war.

My father was a POW in WWII in Germany. As bad as it was for him, he said he felt sorry for the women and children because they were the ones who suffered most.

War is awful, but there is no reason to lose compassion for innocent victims.

[highnote]

One other complication is that an enemy may move troops and war machinery into civilian areas. When this happens, civilian casualties are inevitable. But by Geneva Convention those civilian areas a fair targets.

Germans and Japanese would have metal lathes in civilian homes and use them to make weapons. As a result civilians got hit by bombs.

The same thing happens in the Middle East today.

So even though those civilian targets are fair game, it is still a tragedy that children die through no fault of their own.