Strange Trend

[traynor]

I have noticed a dramatic increase in a particular event, and I'm curious if it is happening elsewhere (or just in the US upper midwest). I have been approached by (a dramatically increasing number of) people asking for money (usually "a couple of dollars"). On buses. On trains. And most everywhere else.

I am not a recluse, and I like public transportation. My habits have not changed in any significant way, but the above scenario has happened more in the last couple of months than in the last 10 years. In a number of cases, it is framed as a "thinly-veiled demand"--as in, "give me money or else." On several occasions, I have seen people "working" buses and "local transit" trains--and the various stops for those transport modes--moving from person to person as if they were a captive income source.

Oddly, it is also evident in casual encounters that involve (casual) conversations. A comment to another (on public transport, on the street, or other public place) seems to (relatively frequently) elicit a knee-jerk response on the order of "if you want to talk to me, give me money first."

Even more odd, the requests/demands seem repetitious--as if they came from some 2017 social media version of Steal This Book.

I am not especially miserly, but I have little interest in (or patience with) handing out money to people for no good reason. It is not that those requesting seem especially needy--on the contrary, many seem to be "professional beggars" who consider their demands for money a (relatively steady) source of income (and less stressful than explicit mugging or robbery).

Anything like this going on in your part of the planet?

[Stoleitbreezing]

I have noticed a dramatic increase in a particular event, and I'm curious if it is happening elsewhere (or just in the US upper midwest). I have been approached by (a dramatically increasing number of) people asking for money (usually "a couple of dollars"). On buses. On trains. And most everywhere else.

I am not a recluse, and I like public transportation. My habits have not changed in any significant way, but the above scenario has happened more in the last couple of months than in the last 10 years. In a number of cases, it is framed as a "thinly-veiled demand"--as in, "give me money or else." On several occasions, I have seen people "working" buses and "local transit" trains--and the various stops for those transport modes--moving from person to person as if they were a captive income source.

Oddly, it is also evident in casual encounters that involve (casual) conversations. A comment to another (on public transport, on the street, or other public place) seems to (relatively frequently) elicit a knee-jerk response on the order of "if you want to talk to me, give me money first."

Even more odd, the requests/demands seem repetitious--as if they came from some 2017 social media version of Steal This Book.

I am not especially miserly, but I have little interest in (or patience with) handing out money to people for no good reason. It is not that those requesting seem especially needy--on the contrary, many seem to be "professional beggars" who consider their demands for money a (relatively steady) source of income (and less stressful than explicit mugging or robbery).

Anything like this going on in your part of the planet?

All the time especially in the city. Chicago is especially bad, unless your walking on Michigan Ave "mag mile" where the police are encouraged to prevent this riff raff from taking place.

I would agree that the beggars are more direct and authoritative as if its a "command". In the past it was a down on luck story, now its the "door in face" type approach "give me a couple of bucks" like you've known them forever or actually owe them something. I hate being in the city for this reason. In the suburban areas now some intersections have these people "camped" out with a sign or cup. Some will go to a gas station and will walk pump to pump "demanding" money because they know you can't just drive off. Professional bums or truly needing the help I'm tired of it. There's plenty of agencies out there and charities that are willing to help without us being confronted at a stop light or gas pump with no way to easily drive away or escape.

[barahona44]

I have noticed a dramatic increase in a particular event, and I'm curious if it is happening elsewhere (or just in the US upper midwest). I have been approached by (a dramatically increasing number of) people asking for money (usually "a couple of dollars"). On buses. On trains. And most everywhere else.

I am not a recluse, and I like public transportation. My habits have not changed in any significant way, but the above scenario has happened more in the last couple of months than in the last 10 years. In a number of cases, it is framed as a "thinly-veiled demand"--as in, "give me money or else." On several occasions, I have seen people "working" buses and "local transit" trains--and the various stops for those transport modes--moving from person to person as if they were a captive income source.

Oddly, it is also evident in casual encounters that involve (casual) conversations. A comment to another (on public transport, on the street, or other public place) seems to (relatively frequently) elicit a knee-jerk response on the order of "if you want to talk to me, give me money first."

Even more odd, the requests/demands seem repetitious--as if they came from some 2017 social media version of Steal This Book.

I am not especially miserly, but I have little interest in (or patience with) handing out money to people for no good reason. It is not that those requesting seem especially needy--on the contrary, many seem to be "professional beggars" who consider their demands for money a (relatively steady) source of income (and less stressful than explicit mugging or robbery).

Anything like this going on in your part of the planet?I live in Massachusetts and this has been common here since the late 80's..The scenario would be, "Oh, I lost my bus ticket and I need to get to Hartford" or whatever city popped in their head (At the time,I was living near the city bus terminal).I mostly refused, except one time when there was nobody else around and five dollars seemed like a reasonable exit fee.When I was teaching school, there was a gas station that I passed by that had cheap gasoline and the hustlers would ask for money."Can you give me a couple of dollars? "My reply was "I was about to ask you the same question".I usually got either quizzical looks or obscenities, although one guy laughed so hard, I gave him a dollar (I appreciate anybody who likes my jokes).
And like you,I agree this is mostly a hustle and with some a thinly veiled threat.

[boxcar]

Here in Swampland, especially on the Gold Coast during the winter, we have more than our fair share of panhandlers. In my county, the Sheriff's department had even posted signs at major intersections stating that it's perfectly fine to say "no" to panhandlers.

Recently, I've seen some creative panhandlers carrying signs with a short explanation of their hard luck story while also pedaling something, such as bottled water in return for a donation, of course.

Signs of the times as the economy continues worsen...

On a different but related note, I know the times are hard down here because just the other day I stopped in to one of my banks (a major one by the way) to conduct a transaction. I hadn't been in that branch for about 6 months. When I walked in the door I immediately noticed the two customer service desks had no one sitting at them. When I looked in the window of the manager's office, I saw a different person sitting in there than I had seen several months ago. When I reached my teller I inquired about the two fellas who used to occupy the now vacant chairs at those two desks. All she said was, "they're gone". I inquired about the manager -- same thing. "He's gone". Thankfully, all their money wasn't gone, so I was able to complete my transaction. :rolleyes:

Signs of the times...

[OntheRail]

Yep have them here... was at the Gas station other day... guy comes in looks at me and said give me five buck for gas. I looked at him and said you got a fresh pack of smokes in your pocket and your asking me for money for gas. He's I'm addicted to them... you gonna give me five I'm on empty. Nope I said enjoy your smokes.

We also have the deaf guy... but he always has a little something to offer for a donation. I'll slip him a few bucks as he's not offensive to those that say no.

[thaskalos]

In my entire life, I've never been able to say "no" to a panhandler. The only time that I remember ever turning down a money request from a beggar, I was quickly overcome by remorse...and chased the guy down so I could put a few odd bills in his hand. I never could explain the reason of this seemingly unreasonable behavior of mine.

The most memorable experience of this nature that I could recall took place some years ago...as I was stopped at a red light on a ramp exiting an expressway. Standing by the stoplight right in front of me was a middle-aged woman with a young child. Both of them were unkempt and seemingly exhausted...and the older woman held up a sign which read: "PLEASE HELP US. MY DAUGHTER AND I ARE TRYING TO RAISE MONEY FOR A BUS TICKET BACK TO OUR HOME IN FLORIDA."

I quickly summoned the lady to my car...and asked her how much money she still needed in order to buy the tickets so she and her daughter could get back home. I think she told me that she needed about $70. I handed her a $100 bill...and she looked as if she would faint from the shock. She thanked me profusely...and I drove away.

Alas... about a week later, I happened to drive through another busy intersection a few blocks away from there...and I saw the same lady carrying the same sign, with the exhausted young child still right next to her. The mere thought of this sickens me even now...but I am still unable to turn away panhandlers. "Among all these crooks, there may be a few truly needy people"...I keep telling myself.

In the end...we are who we are...

[boxcar]

In my entire life, I've never been able to say "no" to a panhandler. The only time that I remember ever turning down a money request from a beggar, I was quickly overcome by remorse...and chased the guy down so I could put a few odd bills in his hand. I never could explain the reason of this seemingly unreasonable behavior of mine.

The most memorable experience of this nature that I could recall took place some years ago...as I was stopped at a red light on a ramp exiting an expressway. Standing by the stoplight right in front of me was a middle-aged woman with a young child. Both of them were unkempt and seemingly exhausted...and the older woman held up a sign which read: "PLEASE HELP US. MY DAUGHTER AND I ARE TRYING TO RAISE MONEY FOR A BUS TICKET BACK TO OUR HOME IN FLORIDA."

I quickly summoned the lady to my car...and asked her how much money she still needed in order to buy the tickets so she and her daughter could get back home. I think she told me that she needed about $70. I handed her a $100 bill...and she looked as if she would faint from the shock. She thanked me profusely...and I drove away.

Alas... about a week later, I happened to drive through another busy intersection a few blocks away from there...and I saw the same lady carrying the same sign, with the exhausted young child still right next to her. The mere thought of this sickens me even now...but I am still unable to turn away panhandlers. "Among all these crooks, there may be a few truly needy people"...I keep telling myself.

In the end...we are who we are...

Touching and revealing story, Thask. I guess I am who I am -- and I don't like to be taken. This is why when I part with my money, I do so only under controlled circumstances -- such as taking someone into a convenience store to buy a sandwich -- and sometimes the panhandlers actually refused that kind of gesture. So...you know they were up to no good.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Thirty even twenty years ago it was people that genuinely looked like the homeless, destitute, hard luck types. Now it's nothing buy grungy dope fiends that can't put in enough consecutive hours at a job without shooting up a vein. I'll give a legit bum some money and don't care what he does with it. The kid who could be having daddy pay his tuition or use the degree he already has but would rather buy more smack every couple of hours can pass out from heatstroke for all I care.

[rastajenk]

Yep have them here... was at the Gas station other day... .I've been hit up at gas stations a few times this year. My daily routines don't usually put me anywhere else that panhandling is occurring. I usually just shrug and tell them I participate in the "cashless" economy and move on.

[Saratoga_Mike]

If you want to help the homeless, give to a professionally run organization like the Salvation Army. If you give directly on the street, most of the time you're merely enabling a drug or alcohol addiction.

[therussmeister]

Touching and revealing story, Thask. I guess I am who I am -- and I don't like to be taken. This is why when I part with my money, I do so only under controlled circumstances -- such as taking someone into a convenience store to buy a sandwich -- and sometimes the panhandlers actually refused that kind of gesture. So...you know they were up to no good.
Not necessarily. Perhaps you are familiar with the website www.quora.com. There was a question posted there asking why beggars turned down food. A formerly homeless person answered that he got so many offers for food, but still need cash to do laundry, buy toothpaste, buy socks, etc.

[therussmeister]

I've been hit up at gas stations a few times this year. My daily routines don't usually put me anywhere else that panhandling is occurring. I usually just shrug and tell them I participate in the "cashless" economy and move on.
There is a Scandinavian country, forgot which one, where so many people have gone cashless the government is issuing homeless people credit card accepting devices to facilitate begging.

[proximity]

this happens a lot on the boardwalk in atlantic city and it's about annoying enough to ruin the experience. you just got sucked out on runner-runner at tropicana or taj or wherever and you're trying to take a relaxing walk back to bally's and they're all over you......

[tucker6]

this happens a lot on the boardwalk in atlantic city and it's about annoying enough to ruin the experience. you just got sucked out on runner-runner at tropicana or taj or wherever and you're trying to take a relaxing walk back to bally's and they're all over you......
Tell them the lump in the front of your pants is not a wad of cash. :lol:

[traynor]

There is a Scandinavian country, forgot which one, where so many people have gone cashless the government is issuing homeless people credit card accepting devices to facilitate begging.

Probably Sweden. They are so adamant about "no cash allowed" that I am not sure one can even make cash bets at their racetracks. The basic theory is that cash transactions encourage crime (of one sort or another).

[Robert Fischer]

'running the gauntlet' ?


All the time.

My health isn't what It used to be and I'm generally dressed for work with a very non confrontational appearance, - so aggressive beggars tend to misread me, and not notice that I'm the bad guy in this situation, who still has has the skills to kick their ass in a heartbeat if they cross the line.

If I hospitalize the 18yo squeegee guy(way better physical shape than I am in) who aggressively approaches, gets a polite 'no thanks' and then spritzes and sprays my window after I just finished washing my windows before work, the headline will read "White man beats black Baltimore teen".

Last night I was entering the liquor store and some little thug who was lurking near the building approached me to make his pitch and he had enough sense to stop in his tracks as he saw my body language and timing change. I held the door for him "YOU COMING IN?", and he went back over to the shadows.

Once in a while it gets to be slightly annoying.

Obviously, the best approach is to be aware of your surroundings, avoid confrontation, be safe,and behave rationally. :ThmbUp:

[JustRalph]

When I lived near Baltimore, all the time. Not here in Texas, yet.

There used to be this chick that would drive around Glen Burnie MD late on Fri-Sat night in a huge Ford Pickup. She would flag you down or drive up on you and she would have a black eye and busted lip. She would ask for ten bucks for gas to get home to her mom's place in city. She had a story about her boyfriend just beat her up and threw her out.

The first time my wife gave her ten bucks she told me "it's a scam'

A couple of months later she hit us up again 20 miles away from the first time. I pulled my truck behind her and walked over to her and got up close and realized the black eye and busted lip were fake. She drove over a curb to escape my conversation.

[Fager Fan]

Not necessarily. Perhaps you are familiar with the website www.quora.com. There was a question posted there asking why beggars turned down food. A formerly homeless person answered that he got so many offers for food, but still need cash to do laundry, buy toothpaste, buy socks, etc.

You believe that? They can still eat, and still pursue cash.

One time I was at a light and the guy's sign said he was hungry. I had no cash on me but did have an unpened pack of Lance peanut butter crackers. He came to the window, I put the crackers in his hand, he looked at it in shock, then threw (petty hard) the pack of crackers at me. Hit me in the face.

[thaskalos]

You believe that? They can still eat, and still pursue cash.

One time I was at a light and the guy's sign said he was hungry. I had no cash on me but did have an unpened pack of Lance peanut butter crackers. He came to the window, I put the crackers in his hand, he looked at it in shock, then threw (petty hard) the pack of crackers at me. Hit me in the face.

Maybe he was on a no-carb diet.

[proximity]

in baltimore they are all over the road on russell street and at the end of 83 where it becomes president (?) street but (for whatever reason) they never approach my car. maybe seeing the car they think "this guy needs the money more than i do...." :)

[traynor]

The homeless folks with the signs (true statements or otherwise) and the conventional panhandlers have been around a long time. The thing that I see different is in the presentation--much more demanding than requesting, and much more structured as a repeated endeavor.

[Marshall Bennett]

Seems geographics and the rate you come into contact with ordinary people has much to do with it. I say ordinary because these days being broke and homeless is almost ordinary in a lot of places.
I haven't had this happen to me in many years, but I'm not particularly around people much either. :)

[TJDave]

"Among all these crooks, there may be a few truly needy people"...I keep telling myself.

This is why I have no complaint with our social services. While it may be true that many take advantage, the truly needy also benefit. That is the higher good.

[therussmeister]

You believe that? They can still eat, and still pursue cash.

One time I was at a light and the guy's sign said he was hungry. I had no cash on me but did have an unpened pack of Lance peanut butter crackers. He came to the window, I put the crackers in his hand, he looked at it in shock, then threw (petty hard) the pack of crackers at me. Hit me in the face.
My point was he may have eaten thirty minutes ago. The formerly homeless person's point was food was relatively easy to come by. Cash not so much.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I'll say this as an addendum to my earlier post - when I lived and worked in Boston a couple or so decades ago (lived in the lovely Roxbury/Mission Hill area and worked downtown 24 hour night shift convenient store at Mass Ave near Boylston just before the Turnpike bridge) - some of the best people I dealt with daily were our panhandling regulars.

You couldn't get in or out the door without dealing with them. But, everyone made the most of it. They were allowed to panhandle and work the door if they did so professionally. They opened the door for customers, 'donation' or not. The smiled and were polite. They worked out who got the door amongst themselves and didn't cause any scenes fighting over turf.

They worked security. They knew who was bad news in the area and was likely coming in to steal batteries or scratch off tickets. They (especially Darren and Cassie aka Chicken Man and Chicken Lady, named for their favorite microwavable treat) would let us know to keep an eye on these guys and gals as they came through the door. They'd help out cleaning up on a busy night in exchange for free fountain drinks and the tired old hot dogs on the roller.

They would all get together and make Grateful Dead tie-dyes before the band came in for one of its long ass stays at the Garden. They'd make money. They'd get good and drunk. But they tried. And usually they'd vanish for a few weeks or months every now and then, picked up for something or another. Even Chicken Lady got put away for stabbing Chicken Man one night during a fight. These people had problems, but they were bigger than just their addictions.

They tried. They could have tried harder but they weren't utterly useless and under the impression that the world should just pity them and pay them because of it. If they weren't working in this way, they were in the subways playing music. Or something. It wasn't just awful scam artistry. It was people that had suffered through bad choices, the consequences, and a whole lot of lousy hands dealt their way in the process. You had hope for most of these people because you could see them trying to make the most of a bad situation to some degree. These pathetic scab faced kids I see out there today are making the least of everything. They've been dealt hands that are at least playable and won't even try unless it involves being shitty towards people that have what they want and could themselves have. Something changed, maybe me, but I have a hard time mustering up much sympathy for the latest generation of this segment.

[zico20]

One time at a gas station a guy came up to me and asked me for 10 bucks for gas so he could get to Cape Girardeau , a 75 minute drive so he could see his mother who was dying. I asked him if it was very important to see his mother before she died. He told me yes so I said I would give him 10 bucks if he gave me his shoes and he declined. I told him I guess seeing your dying mother is not that important to you. He walked away.

I never give any money to anyone. Almost everyone one of them is a scam. I also start speaking in German sometimes when approached. They quickly go on to the next person.

[traynor]

How scam artists are dealt with in Sweden:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36924717

[traynor]

While it may give one a warm fuzzy to believe himself or herself providing "selfless charity to those less fortunate than I" that (definitely) may not be true. There is plenty of need to go around in the world (one might start in Darfur, for example, or any of a dozen other places). Handouts--regardless of how good it may make one feel--rarely help to do more than train the recipients to continue seeking handouts.

There is a symbiotic relationship between those who seek handouts and those who dispense them. They need each other. That is not the area I find unusual, or disturbing. It is the meek acquiescence to peremptory demands for money that I find objectionable--as much or more so than the demands. Large numbers of people are being trained to expect instant gratification (and an endless supply of cash) by demanding money from strangers.

A person made such a demand of me recently at a bus stop (and was politely but firmly refused). His reaction was intense and instantaneous hostility, and, from all indications, if I had hesitated, wavered, or backed down for an instant, I would have been attacked. Not just for the money, but because I had violated his preconception of how chumps should respond to his (rather obnoxious) demands.

If someone attacks me or threatens me--explicitly or implicitly--they had best be ready for the consequences. However, I am an anomaly. Others may not be as capable, or as ready to respond to violent encounters. That still others have trained those demanding money to expect meek compliance and easy reward is the cause of the problem, and may well be the major reason it seems to be expanding rapidly. If I had been a frail senior citizen, barely able to get around, and unable or unwilling to hand over the money demanded, the outcome may have been quite different. The fault for such unfortunate (and unnecessary) incidents may well lie with those who trained the person demanding money to expect instant compliance.

[thaskalos]

While it may give one a warm fuzzy to believe himself or herself providing "selfless charity to those less fortunate than I" that (definitely) may not be true. There is plenty of need to go around in the world (one might start in Darfur, for example, or any of a dozen other places). Handouts--regardless of how good it may make one feel--rarely help to do more than train the recipients to continue seeking handouts.

There is a symbiotic relationship between those who seek handouts and those who dispense them. They need each other. That is not the area I find unusual, or disturbing. It is the meek acquiescence to peremptory demands for money that I find objectionable--as much or more so than the demands. Large numbers of people are being trained to expect instant gratification (and an endless supply of cash) by demanding money from strangers.

A person made such a demand of me recently at a bus stop (and was politely but firmly refused). His reaction was intense and instantaneous hostility, and, from all indications, if I had hesitated, wavered, or backed down for an instant, I would have been attacked. Not just for the money, but because I had violated his preconception of how chumps should respond to his (rather obnoxious) demands.

If someone attacks me or threatens me--explicitly or implicitly--they had best be ready for the consequences. However, I am an anomaly. Others may not be as capable, or as ready to respond to violent encounters. That still others have trained those demanding money to expect meek compliance and easy reward is the cause of the problem, and may well be the major reason it seems to be expanding rapidly. If I had been a frail senior citizen, barely able to get around, and unable or unwilling to hand over the money demanded, the outcome may have been quite different. The fault for such unfortunate (and unnecessary) incidents may well lie with those who trained the person demanding money to expect instant compliance.

I'm sorry...I think I misunderstood your initial post here. Had I known that you were talking about "violent encounters" between you and the panhandlers out there, then I would have abstained from posting in your thread...because I've never experienced such a thing. And that's after living in one of our country's most dangerous cities for 43 years.

[thaskalos]

While it may give one a warm fuzzy to believe himself or herself providing "selfless charity to those less fortunate than I" that (definitely) may not be true. There is plenty of need to go around in the world (one might start in Darfur, for example, or any of a dozen other places). Handouts--regardless of how good it may make one feel--rarely help to do more than train the recipients to continue seeking handouts.

There is a symbiotic relationship between those who seek handouts and those who dispense them. They need each other. That is not the area I find unusual, or disturbing. It is the meek acquiescence to peremptory demands for money that I find objectionable--as much or more so than the demands. Large numbers of people are being trained to expect instant gratification (and an endless supply of cash) by demanding money from strangers.

A person made such a demand of me recently at a bus stop (and was politely but firmly refused). His reaction was intense and instantaneous hostility, and, from all indications, if I had hesitated, wavered, or backed down for an instant, I would have been attacked. Not just for the money, but because I had violated his preconception of how chumps should respond to his (rather obnoxious) demands.

If someone attacks me or threatens me--explicitly or implicitly--they had best be ready for the consequences. However, I am an anomaly. Others may not be as capable, or as ready to respond to violent encounters. That still others have trained those demanding money to expect meek compliance and easy reward is the cause of the problem, and may well be the major reason it seems to be expanding rapidly. If I had been a frail senior citizen, barely able to get around, and unable or unwilling to hand over the money demanded, the outcome may have been quite different. The fault for such unfortunate (and unnecessary) incidents may well lie with those who trained the person demanding money to expect instant compliance.

True...but I think you are missing the other half of the spectrum here. Yes...those who dispense the handouts may indeed need the panhandlers...but those who withhold the handouts may need the beggars, as well. Rebuking them reminds those "tough guys" of how shrewd and "tough" they really are.

These "symbiotic relationships" can become quite complicated affairs...

[traynor]

True...but I think you are missing the other half of the spectrum here. Yes...those who dispense the handouts may indeed need the panhandlers...but those who withhold the handouts may need the beggars, as well. Rebuking them reminds those "tough guys" of how shrewd and "tough" they really are.

These "symbiotic relationships" can become quite complicated affairs...

On the contrary. It is not so much rebuking as the equivalent of "Don't Feed the Bears" signs in various national parks.

I am a big fan of Nakadai. I have spent the major portion of my life perfecting the appearance of harmlessness. My ego doesn't require nourishing by artificial scenarios, and when the situation turns serious, it gives me an advantage. Slight, but useful.

My apologies if I created the impression I was pretending to be a "tough guy." I only intended the context to convey the difficulty others might find themselves in, with little hope of a way out.

[thaskalos]

On the contrary. It is not so much rebuking as the equivalent of "Don't Feed the Bears" signs in various national parks.

I am a big fan of Nakadai. I have spent the major portion of my life perfecting the appearance of harmlessness. My ego doesn't require nourishing by artificial scenarios, and when the situation turns serious, it gives me an advantage. Slight, but useful.

My apologies if I created the impression I was pretending to be a "tough guy." I only intended the context to convey the difficulty others might find themselves in, with little hope of a way out.

No apology necessary. Perhaps I got the wrong impression as a result of your description of how "ready and capable" you are to respond to a "violent encounter".

[davew]

I do have to admire their willingness to do something (instead of or in addition to getting as much from the government as possible), although I ignore them.

[johnhannibalsmith]

In spite of reading and posting in this thread I was off the reservation shopping for something out of the ordinary in a throwback hippy type area and a young guy got $10 off of me because he asked for a sandwich. :lol:

[thaskalos]

In spite of reading and posting in this thread I was off the reservation shopping for something out of the ordinary in a throwback hippy type area and a young guy got $10 off of me because he asked for a sandwich. :lol:
:ThmbUp:

Feed the hungry...I say. Regardless of age.

[tucker6]

I'm sorry...I think I misunderstood your initial post here. Had I known that you were talking about "violent encounters" between you and the panhandlers out there, then I would have abstained from posting in your thread...because I've never experienced such a thing. And that's after living in one of our country's most dangerous cities for 43 years.
In Boston one time I gave someone the change in my pocket because it was all I had at that moment. Maybe 85 cents. I turn around and start walking away, and the guy throws the change at me in disgust. I've rarely given to people unless they are passive. Some are scammers making 40k a year panhandling.

[thaskalos]

In Boston one time I gave someone the change in my pocket because it was all I had at that moment. Maybe 85 cents. I turn around and start walking away, and the guy throws the change at me in disgust. I've rarely given to people unless they are passive. Some are scammers making 40k a year panhandling.

I, myself, have never been accosted by a militant panhandler...and if I were, then I would ignore him and go about my business. What I have encountered are cases where strangers have approached me, some of them in a shy and embarrassed manner, and have asked me for whatever financial assistance I might be able to provide for them, to help them in the dire condition that they find themselves. In such situations...I can't find it within myself to refuse their requests for help. But this doesn't mean that I don't understand the position of those who insist on turning these people away. We are who we are...and we react instinctively to cases such as these.

What I resent, is when I see people try to paint me as someone who "needs" the panhandlers...because I need to reassure myself that I am a "nice guy"...which is what I thought Traynor was trying to do with his post #28.

I also am in the habit of feeding whatever stray cats happen to show up at my back door. Does this mean that I "need" to establish some sort of "symbiotic relationship" with the stray cats too?

[tucker6]

I, myself, have never been accosted by a militant panhandler...and if I were, then I would ignore him and go about my business. What I have encountered are cases where strangers have approached me, some of them in a shy and embarrassed manner, and have asked me for whatever financial assistance I might be able to provide for them, to help them in the dire condition that they find themselves. In such situations...I can't find it within myself to refuse their requests for help. But this doesn't mean that I don't understand the position of those who insist on turning these people away. We are who we are...and we react instinctively to cases such as these.

What I resent, is when I see people try to paint me as someone who "needs" the panhandlers...because I need to reassure myself that I am a "nice guy"...which is what I thought Traynor was trying to do with his post #28.

I also am in the habit of feeding whatever stray cats happen to show up at my back door. Does this mean that I "need" to establish some sort of "symbiotic relationship" with the stray cats too?
Anyone who feeds stray cats is okay in my book. :ThmbUp:

As for the subject, a guy approached me in an isolated parking area last month and nicely asked for lunch money. I gave him $5. Said he was having trouble finding work and making ends meet. I don't know the truth of it, but it wasn't like he was on a corner with a sign. I don't give to them. Too many stories to tell.

[anotherCAfan]

Anyone who feeds stray cats is okay in my book. :ThmbUp:
I agree with you and thaskalos!

Getting back to the original post, rather than a strange trend, it's just another day here in the Los Angeles area. On our various freeways, I know where to expect panhandlers on specific freeway offramps I frequently (or even occasionally) use. I will purposely drive in the middle lane of an offramp, instead of the left lane (assuming both go left), to try to avoid contact with the panhandler.

That's a horrible thing to admit, but I would go broke if I have to every panhandler that I encounter. I'll give a few bucks sometimes, but it isn't that often.

[johnhannibalsmith]

.... On our various freeways, I know where to expect panhandlers on specific freeway offramps I frequently (or even occasionally) use. I will purposely drive in the middle lane of an offramp, instead of the left lane (assuming both go left), to try to avoid contact with the panhandler.

...

Ha... that's the main method around Phoenix too. When I drive down I usually offer the guys a cigarette while I'm waiting at the light. Most are happy with that and never thought I'd have thunk it, but I miss the days when 99 people out of 100 wouldn't decline the offer of a smoke.

[Jess Hawsen Arown]

I have noticed a dramatic increase in a particular event, and I'm curious if it is happening elsewhere (or just in the US upper midwest). I have been approached by (a dramatically increasing number of) people asking for money (usually "a couple of dollars"). On buses. On trains. And most everywhere else.

I am not a recluse, and I like public transportation. My habits have not changed in any significant way, but the above scenario has happened more in the last couple of months than in the last 10 years. In a number of cases, it is framed as a "thinly-veiled demand"--as in, "give me money or else." On several occasions, I have seen people "working" buses and "local transit" trains--and the various stops for those transport modes--moving from person to person as if they were a captive income source.

Oddly, it is also evident in casual encounters that involve (casual) conversations. A comment to another (on public transport, on the street, or other public place) seems to (relatively frequently) elicit a knee-jerk response on the order of "if you want to talk to me, give me money first."

Even more odd, the requests/demands seem repetitious--as if they came from some 2017 social media version of Steal This Book.

I am not especially miserly, but I have little interest in (or patience with) handing out money to people for no good reason. It is not that those requesting seem especially needy--on the contrary, many seem to be "professional beggars" who consider their demands for money a (relatively steady) source of income (and less stressful than explicit mugging or robbery).

Anything like this going on in your part of the planet?

I'm still waiting for the fifty bucks you promised me.

[Jess Hawsen Arown]

In my entire life, I've never been able to say "no" to a panhandler. The only time that I remember ever turning down a money request from a beggar, I was quickly overcome by remorse...and chased the guy down so I could put a few odd bills in his hand. I never could explain the reason of this seemingly unreasonable behavior of mine.

In the end...we are who we are...

My history is just the opposite. Only once in my life did I give money to a beggar. It was quite a few years in New York City as I was getting ready to go into Madison Square Garden for a Knicks game. A young black man engages me in conversation about the difficulty somebody has coming from out of town to the Big Apple. He said he was just in from Wyoming...

Wyoming!?! If this guy is in from Wyoming, I'm Paris Hilton. If true, there must be no more black people in Wyoming. I had to reward him for the entertainment value.

[barahona44]

My history is just the opposite. Only once in my life did I give money to a beggar. It was quite a few years in New York City as I was getting ready to go into Madison Square Garden for a Knicks game. A young black man engages me in conversation about the difficulty somebody has coming from out of town to the Big Apple. He said he was just in from Wyoming...

Wyoming!?! If this guy is in from Wyoming, I'm Paris Hilton. If true, there must be no more black people in Wyoming. I had to reward him for the entertainment value.
Black poulation is 0.8% in Wyoming or about 4500 based on a population of 563,000.
Minus one, your new pal, of course :)

[traynor]

The classic example of doing good is the Boy Scout who helps the little old lady across the street. Which enables her to get to the next corner just in time to be run over by a bus. The key point is not the snapshot in time of the good deed. It is how that good deed turns out.

You may recall the chagrin which Ronald Reagan's speech to the NAACP created with the line about freeing people "from the economic slavery of welfare." No suggestion was made that welfare should be eliminated entirely, nor that it should not be provided to those who truly needed it. The suggestion was that there might be peripheral damage caused by those good intentions, ignored or dismissed by those advocating easy access to the "welfare net" for everyone.

A similar argument could be made for the folly of "readily available" student loans. While no one could deny the advantages of a "higher education" in many cases that is not what the students get. Instead they are filled with promises of fortune and glory if they have "a whatever degree" with little or no consideration given to actually instilling the skill set needed to pursue that fortune and glory with any hope of actually attaining it. Colleges and universities (as well as thousands of marginally qualified "teachers") thrive. Hundreds of thousands of degree holders discover are unemployed, can't find anyone who thinks what they "learned" is worth paying for, and opt out to more student loans, more years in college or university, and more advanced degrees.

The pattern of "doing good with little thought to effect" is the same. Directly related to the original post, my motivation was not my experience. It was the experience of the teenage boy with the basketball who passed the bench at the bus stop at which the "militant panhandler" had been glowering at me for several minutes with no effect after I sat down on the bench next to him to wait for the bus. The boy was trundling along the street past a large bush (that obscured the bench and its occupants until abreast of it). The "militant panhandler" jumped up, approached within 18" or so of the boy (who was a full foot shorter and probably 75 pounds lighter, as well as considerably less muscular) held his hand up in the boy's face and essentially demanded "a couple of dollars for bus fare." The kid was so terrified I thought he was going to wet his pants. He dug around in the pocket of his shorts, came up with a folded dollar bill, and offered it. The guy grabbed it, looked at it for a moment as if deciding whether or not to punch out the kid on general principles because the amount was insufficient, then stepped back and allowed the kid to pass.

That was the "person less prepared for violence" that I referred to in the post above. As were the half dozen people on the bus I boarded (with the "militant panhandler" right behind me) that he "put the arm on" while the bus was trundling down the street. He moved from one to the next as if he thought of them as a captive audience with no alternative except to meekly submit to his demands. And that is precisely what they did.

End result? Reward for obnoxious demands for money from strangers, training the "militant panhandler" much as a porpoise is trained with pieces of fish. It is the well-being of those who may be unwilling or unable (for one reason or another) to promptly comply with his demands that concerns me.

I was actually kind of hoping (since he had followed me on the bus) that he would follow me off at my stop. However, he was much too busy collecting money from the others on the bus.

[VigorsTheGrey]

I also am in the habit of feeding whatever stray cats happen to show up at my back door. Does this mean that I "need" to establish some sort of "symbiotic relationship" with the stray cats too?

I would advise against feeding stray cats...you don't want to normalized their routines...you never get rid of them...and their digestive offloads are so foul and caustic to your environs you'll wish you never had fed them ever!

Believe me, cats are the worst in this regard...you never get rid of the odor, they'll multiply and return with their howling lusty counterparts and haunt your initial goodwill..."familiarity breeds contempt" in this case...

[traynor]

And from the Land of Oz:

They say no good deed goes unpunished.

And so it was when Australian Prime Minster Malcolm Turnbull gave A$5 (£3) to a beggar on Melbourne's streets.

On his way to give a major economic speech on Thursday, Mr Turnbull stopped to shake the man's hand and slip some money into his coffee cup.

But this minor act of generosity quickly turned into a major talking point on social media, where people were keen to criticise the PM from multiple angles.

Some saw Mr Turnbull as stingy. He is a wealthy man and the five-dollar note was plucked from a substantial wad of cash. Australia's version of the Daily Mail described him as "Miserly Mal".

But on the other hand, he was also criticised for giving money at all. Melbourne's Lord Mayor Robert Doyle said giving to beggars helped feed drug habits and entrench poverty, and suggested Mr Turnbull give to a charity instead.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-37127985

I agree with Melbourne's Lord Mayor. Training people to expect charity is training them to remain in (or quickly descend to) poverty. The only "benefit" is to the giver--not to the recipient.

That can readily be seen by the giver's preference for tokenism--not real benefit, not real help, and not real aid.

[traynor]

I would advise against feeding stray cats...you don't want to normalized their routines...you never get rid of them...and their digestive offloads are so foul and caustic to your environs you'll wish you never had fed them ever!

Believe me, cats are the worst in this regard...you never get rid of the odor, they'll multiply and return with their howling lusty counterparts and haunt your initial goodwill..."familiarity breeds contempt" in this case...

Even worse, the young ones all want to start wars (a topic about which they know little or nothing, but believe themselves to be more than competent), and the old ones are too busy posturing and pontificating to be of any use to anyone except themselves. An altogether strange group of creatures.

[Inner Dirt]

Must have been 25 years ago back in California. Coming back from a party at a friend of a friend's house where I was in charge of liquid "refreshments". The host couple did not drink or hold parties, but it was a special occasion. I was given a wad of cash and told to get whatever. When the party was over I was given the leftovers as a thank you (there was a lot). On the way home I stop in to get gas with a 66 Cadillac Coupe De Ville with a truck full of alcohol. Guy walks up while I am pumping gas asking for money to buy milk for his baby. I told him I don't like liars and that if he wants money for alcohol why doesn't he just be honest. He finally comes clean about wanting money for a 40 ouncer. I popped the trunk handed the dude an unopened bottle of Scotch (The only hard stuff I never liked) and gave him a grocery sack and told him he could fill it with beers out of the ice chest. The guy was so happy I was afraid he was going to try to hug me.

[traynor]

Must have been 25 years ago back in California. Coming back from a party at a friend of a friend's house where I was in charge of liquid "refreshments". The host couple did not drink or hold parties, but it was a special occasion. I was given a wad of cash and told to get whatever. When the party was over I was given the leftovers as a thank you (there was a lot). On the way home I stop in to get gas with a 66 Cadillac Coupe De Ville with a truck full of alcohol. Guy walks up while I am pumping gas asking for money to buy milk for his baby. I told him I don't like liars and that if he wants money for alcohol why doesn't he just be honest. He finally comes clean about wanting money for a 40 ouncer. I popped the trunk handed the dude an unopened bottle of Scotch (The only hard stuff I never liked) and gave him a grocery sack and told him he could fill it with beers out of the ice chest. The guy was so happy I was afraid he was going to try to hug me.

Good example of learned behavior taking precedence over truthfulness. I think I would be much more inclined to give something to someone who asked honestly (without the song-and-dance routine internalized as the fastest way to separate the chumps from their money).

[mostpost]

Here in Swampland, especially on the Gold Coast during the winter, we have more than our fair share of panhandlers. In my county, the Sheriff's department had even posted signs at major intersections stating that it's perfectly fine to say "no" to panhandlers.

Recently, I've seen some creative panhandlers carrying signs with a short explanation of their hard luck story while also pedaling something, such as bottled water in return for a donation, of course.

Signs of the times as the economy continues worsen...

On a different but related note, I know the times are hard down here because just the other day I stopped in to one of my banks (a major one by the way) to conduct a transaction. I hadn't been in that branch for about 6 months. When I walked in the door I immediately noticed the two customer service desks had no one sitting at them. When I looked in the window of the manager's office, I saw a different person sitting in there than I had seen several months ago. When I reached my teller I inquired about the two fellas who used to occupy the now vacant chairs at those two desks. All she said was, "they're gone". I inquired about the manager -- same thing. "He's gone". Thankfully, all their money wasn't gone, so I was able to complete my transaction. :rolleyes:

Signs of the times...
One of your banks??? Just how many banks do you own? :confused: :confused:

[Inner Dirt]

Good example of learned behavior taking precedence over truthfulness. I think I would be much more inclined to give something to someone who asked honestly (without the song-and-dance routine internalized as the fastest way to separate the chumps from their money).

In Southern California beggars holding signs were common place. A few did have a "need money for beer" sign. Those were usually the only ones I gave money to.

[classhandicapper]

I also am in the habit of feeding whatever stray cats happen to show up at my back door. Does this mean that I "need" to establish some sort of "symbiotic relationship" with the stray cats too?

I have a much greater weakness for animals than humans.

I give generously to street musicians (even when they aren't very good) because at least I can be 100% certain they are trying. The thought of giving money to someone that may turn around and buy alcohol, drugs, or cigarettes with it is disturbing to me. When I can weed out the needy from the scammers and know what the person needs it for, I am more generous.

Animals on the other hand melt me every time.

A couple of weeks ago I chased down a stray cat in the neighborhood because he looked a little thin. He was very grateful once I caught up to him. I'm not so sure my neighbors felt the same. ;)

[Inner Dirt]

I have a much greater weakness for animals than humans.
;)

I spent 90 minutes trying to safely extract a rat snake who had become entangled in the netting over a planter of tomatoes (tired of feeding the birds). I cut the big balled mess out and took it to a work bench, the snake was wrapped up real tight. I finally got it lose but it had obviously swallowed some of the netting and the thrashing about had scrambled
it's insides. I set it on the ground in the woods and it thrashed about briefly and died in a few minutes. Shall I tell you about the kitten I got from the shelter I had to force feed with a syringe 10 times a day for over a month so it would not die (She turned 6 years old a couple months ago). Watching Animal Planet even the kittens they showed died from the same ailment my cat had. Now she repays me by just playing with the mice that get in the house and peeing in my laundry basket full of dirty clothes.

My liberal girlfriend says I have no compassion. I have plenty of it but only
for those that are trying to do their best with what they have to work with.
Not those that are looking to game the system.

[traynor]

I have a much greater weakness for animals than humans.

I give generously to street musicians (even when they aren't very good) because at least I can be 100% certain they are trying. The thought of giving money to someone that may turn around and buy alcohol, drugs, or cigarettes with it is disturbing to me. When I can weed out the needy from the scammers and know what the person needs it for, I am more generous.

Animals on the other hand melt me every time.

A couple of weeks ago I chased down a stray cat in the neighborhood because he looked a little thin. He was very grateful once I caught up to him. I'm not so sure my neighbors felt the same. ;)


I had a cat once. (Yes, once ... I am not overly fond of cats.) It was an ideal cat. Cold, aloof, hostile, very aggressive (Huh ... reminds me of Katherine Jung, my favorite bowhunting companion) and very anti-social. I would feed it when (and if) it showed up, but it was usually far too busy doing other things (most likely foraging for its own food, rather than relying on someone or something else to do it for him. Good hunter.).

Little old lady moved in next door, and absolutely adored the cat. Doting would be an understatement. Gourmet catfood, fresh fish, whatever she could think of to entice it to stick around. It did, after awhile. Got fat and stupid. Waddled out and was run over by a passing car. Apparently it had lost whatever finely-tuned instincts had enabled it to survive. A pity. It was the only cat I ever encountered that I actually liked.

It made me think. A lot. Doing good deeds is never guaranteed to turn out well for the recipient of those good deeds. Sometimes it is useful to think a bit beyond the warm fuzzy (and highly subjective) feeling the doing creates. One may be doing more harm than good.

[Inner Dirt]

I had a cat once. (Yes, once ... I am not overly fond of cats.) It was an ideal cat. Cold, aloof, hostile, very aggressive (Huh ... reminds me of Katherine Jung, my favorite bowhunting companion) and very anti-social. I would feed it when (and if) it showed up, but it was usually far too busy doing other things (most likely foraging for its own food, rather than relying on someone or something else to do it for him. Good hunter.).

Little old lady moved in next door, and absolutely adored the cat. Doting would be an understatement. Gourmet catfood, fresh fish, whatever she could think of to entice it to stick around. It did, after awhile. Got fat and stupid. Waddled out and was run over by a passing car. Apparently it had lost whatever finely-tuned instincts had enabled it to survive. A pity. It was the only cat I ever encountered that I actually liked.

It made me think. A lot. Doing good deeds is never guaranteed to turn out well for the recipient of those good deeds. Sometimes it is useful to think a bit beyond the warm fuzzy (and highly subjective) feeling the doing creates. One may be doing more harm than good.

Close analogy of people who abuse government assistance (Note I said abuse) except for one big difference. People who rely on public assistance as a hand out instead of a hand up do nothing but take and never give back. The cat gave the old lady joy and companionship. The cat served a purpose, career welfare cases don't.

[traynor]

Close analogy of people who abuse government assistance (Note I said abuse) except for one big difference. People who rely on public assistance as a hand out instead of a hand up do nothing but take and never give back. The cat gave the old lady joy and companionship. The cat served a purpose, career welfare cases don't.

That is the root of the problem. Was the joy and companionship enjoyed by the little old lady a rational exchange for the cat's life? And if the cat was able to see the future and make a reasoned decision--considering the outcome--it is likely to have avoided the little old lady like the plague.

The same argument you make could be made for all handouts--in that they often give a warm fuzzy to the giver (who believes himself or herself "doing good for the less fortunate") while working to the ultimate detriment of the recipient. Is the warm fuzzy a worthwhile (or even moral) exchange for helping to train the recipient to accept "economic slavery" and poverty as her or his only option?

As in the case of the cat, the value (or morality) of a situation can only be determined once it is played out. It is not a trivial problem, nor is it isolated. It has been studied in depth (the "Good Samaritan syndrome") with interesting results. In most cases, the "Good Samaritan" is far more motivated by his or her own subjective warm fuzzies, than by any (real or imagined) interest in "helping" others.

[dav4463]

I saw a homeless guy once with a sign that said "need money for drugs and alcohol" At least he was honest ! :)

[traynor]

I saw a homeless guy once with a sign that said "need money for drugs and alcohol" At least he was honest ! :)
In the desert southwest, "Will Work For Food" is common. And almost guaranteed to lead to a bad outcome for those who need someone to mow the lawn, take out the trash, move the sofa, or something similar. The lucky ones get by with a modest robbery, burglary, or whatever.

The unlucky ones get slammed with a lawsuit for everything from sexual harassment or sexual assault to "disablihg injuries sustained while in the employ of ..."

[Parkview_Pirate]

Unfortunately, I don't see this as a strange or unexpected trend, and fully expect it to get much worse as the economy tanks. Desperate people, with nothing to lose, are dangerous people when left with few options.

Here in the Portland area, the moochers are stationed at many of the off-ramps and busy stoplights. The symbiotic relationship is in full swing, as I often see drivers handing out cash, which hardly addresses the root cause of the problem.

Due to the left-coast friendliness and favorable climate, the city has a HUGE homeless problem. There's at least a couple of stories every week on the local news about home owner complaints and the problems.

http://www.kgw.com/news/investigations/6-reasons-why-portlands-homeless-crisis-is-at-a-breaking-point/156737977

I don't expect government to be able to solve this, and local charities are struggling due to a downturn in donations. It's swiftly becoming a predicament instead of a problem.

[thaskalos]

I would advise against feeding stray cats...you don't want to normalized their routines...you never get rid of them...and their digestive offloads are so foul and caustic to your environs you'll wish you never had fed them ever!

Believe me, cats are the worst in this regard...you never get rid of the odor, they'll multiply and return with their howling lusty counterparts and haunt your initial goodwill..."familiarity breeds contempt" in this case...

Thanks for the advice...but I've been feeding stray cats in my back yard for about 10 years now, without any unpleasantries. And I find it most enjoyable when I see the fruits of their "multiplying".

Do my NEIGHBORS share my enthusiasm for stray animals? That, I don't know...but, when they start paying my home mortgage...then I will be more receptive of their opinion on the matter.

[traynor]

Unfortunately, I don't see this as a strange or unexpected trend, and fully expect it to get much worse as the economy tanks. Desperate people, with nothing to lose, are dangerous people when left with few options.

Here in the Portland area, the moochers are stationed at many of the off-ramps and busy stoplights. The symbiotic relationship is in full swing, as I often see drivers handing out cash, which hardly addresses the root cause of the problem.

Due to the left-coast friendliness and favorable climate, the city has a HUGE homeless problem. There's at least a couple of stories every week on the local news about home owner complaints and the problems.

http://www.kgw.com/news/investigations/6-reasons-why-portlands-homeless-crisis-is-at-a-breaking-point/156737977

I don't expect government to be able to solve this, and local charities are struggling due to a downturn in donations. It's swiftly becoming a predicament instead of a problem.

It is not just Portland. It is spreading all over the country. For those unfamiliar with the problem, it may be well to note that in many cases "professional welfare recipients" (who consider it their careers) shop around for the best place to be "homeless and destitute."

It is a bit like the "refugee crisis" in Europe. Hundreds of thousands of people flocked to (or toward) places they believed (correctly or incorrectly) would "provide them with a better life."

[Robert Fischer]

Was walking up to the door of a 7-11 last night.

Guy just 'hanging out' at the far side of the building called out to me "HEY BUDDY!"

I decided to go in for some impromptu method-acting, and as if I was legitimately a friendly face that the aggressive bum/hustler was calling out to, I answered with a hearty "HEYYY, WHATS UP!!", as I merrily swaggered into the store.

Got the bum to surrender with a grin, and I happened to think it was pretty funny at the time ;)

[VigorsTheGrey]

Thanks for the advice...but I've been feeding stray cats in my back yard for about 10 years now, without any unpleasantries. And I find it most enjoyable when I see the fruits of their "multiplying".

Do my NEIGHBORS share my enthusiasm for stray animals? That, I don't know...but, when they start paying my home mortgage...then I will be more receptive of their opinion on the matter.

I was trained as a cement and brick mason...cats were always getting into the sand which of course we used for mortar... My German master stone mason had little sympathy for cats, especially feral ones...I learned early to despatch them away quickly before my master had his way with them...

[Valuist]

The homeless folks with the signs (true statements or otherwise) and the conventional panhandlers have been around a long time. The thing that I see different is in the presentation--much more demanding than requesting, and much more structured as a repeated endeavor.

I worked in Chicago for 10 years and live in the Bay area now. I've noticed the same thing, but just have heard San Francisco's panhandlers have a bigger sense of entitlement.

[traynor]

I think it may be that many who "give to those who ask" are responding from fear, rather than generosity. Specifically, they respond to the requests because they fear the possible outcome if they decline, and cognitive dissonance (contrast with their self-image of being "capable, and in control") prevents them from realizing it at more than a subconscious level.

The "strange trend" is that those requesting money have apparently learned this, and are leveraging it to their advantage by escalating to a more aggressive form of behavior. In essence, while trained by those perhaps more generous in the past that free money is readily available on request, they are learning that (increasingly explicit) bullying behavior is more rewarding than obsequious behavior and "gimme money or else" is more rewarding than "oh, please, can you help me?"

Therein lies the real danger. And that danger has been created by the "generosity" that trained the requesters that easy money was readily available.


"Bullying is "a clear social strategy for self-advancement and power" in humans, says Maestripieri."
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160822-why-bullying-is-such-a-successful-evolutionary-strategy

[VigorsTheGrey]

I think it may be that many who "give to those who ask" are responding from fear, rather than generosity. Specifically, they respond to the requests because they fear the possible outcome if they decline, and cognitive dissonance (contrast with their self-image of being "capable, and in control") prevents them from realizing it at more than a subconscious level.

The "strange trend" is that those requesting money have apparently learned this, and are leveraging it to their advantage by escalating to a more aggressive form of behavior. In essence, while trained by those perhaps more generous in the past that free money is readily available on request, they are learning that (increasingly explicit) bullying behavior is more rewarding than obsequious behavior and "gimme money or else" is more rewarding than "oh, please, can you help me?"

Therein lies the real danger. And that danger has been created by the "generosity" that trained the requesters that easy money was readily available.


"Bullying is "a clear social strategy for self-advancement and power" in humans, says Maestripieri."
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160822-why-bullying-is-such-a-successful-evolutionary-strategy

Exactly put! And at that point have they crossed the line into criminal behavior? A threat is a threat...it's like they are holding you up without a gun or stalking you as a mark in order to shake you down....report these people to the police and try to get them out of your neighborhood...

[barahona44]

I think it may be that many who "give to those who ask" are responding from fear, rather than generosity. Specifically, they respond to the requests because they fear the possible outcome if they decline, and cognitive dissonance (contrast with their self-image of being "capable, and in control") prevents them from realizing it at more than a subconscious level.

The "strange trend" is that those requesting money have apparently learned this, and are leveraging it to their advantage by escalating to a more aggressive form of behavior. In essence, while trained by those perhaps more generous in the past that free money is readily available on request, they are learning that (increasingly explicit) bullying behavior is more rewarding than obsequious behavior and "gimme money or else" is more rewarding than "oh, please, can you help me?"

Therein lies the real danger. And that danger has been created by the "generosity" that trained the requesters that easy money was readily available.


"Bullying is "a clear social strategy for self-advancement and power" in humans, says Maestripieri."
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160822-why-bullying-is-such-a-successful-evolutionary-strategy
As Robert De Niro said in "The Untouchables", "In my old neighborhood, a kind word got you far; a kind word and a knife got you farther"

[traynor]

Exactly put! And at that point have they crossed the line into criminal behavior? A threat is a threat...it's like they are holding you up without a gun or stalking you as a mark in order to shake you down....report these people to the police and try to get them out of your neighborhood...

If you happen to live in an area in which many thrive by catering to the wealthy, and the wealthy are so firmly entrenched in their artificially constructed lala land that they rarely if ever venture out into the hinterlands where their assets make them easy targets rather than "respected citizens of means" to be pampered, coddled, and protected, that might work. Anywhere else, and "report(ing) these people to the police" is not likely to do any good. Especially if you happen to live in one of the receiver neighborhoods that the rejects from the neighborhoods of the "respected citizens of means" are sent.

Once again, it reminds me of the bad guy's line in Liam Neeson's Taken: "Good luck with that."

[traynor]

As Robert De Niro said in "The Untouchables", "In my old neighborhood, a kind word got you far; a kind word and a knife got you farther"
That is pretty much the core of the problem. Train people to expect easy access to free money, with minimal exertion, and removing that easy access is likely to lead (rather quickly) to an escalation in aggression.

[thaskalos]

I think it may be that many who "give to those who ask" are responding from fear, rather than generosity. Specifically, they respond to the requests because they fear the possible outcome if they decline, and cognitive dissonance (contrast with their self-image of being "capable, and in control") prevents them from realizing it at more than a subconscious level.
[/url]

If that were truly the case...then we would "give to those who ask" only when they are the menacing type. But, of course...we give to the weaklings, as well.

Nice theory though. :ThmbUp:

[Robert Fischer]

If you happen to live in an area in which many thrive by catering to the wealthy, and the wealthy are so firmly entrenched in their artificially constructed lala land that they rarely if ever venture out into the hinterlands where their assets make them easy targets rather than "respected citizens of means" to be pampered, coddled, and protected, that might work. Anywhere else, and "report(ing) these people to the police" is not likely to do any good. Especially if you happen to live in one of the receiver neighborhoods that the rejects from the neighborhoods of the "respected citizens of means" are sent.

Once again, it reminds me of the bad guy's line in Liam Neeson's Taken: "Good luck with that."

depending on how broadly you are willing to stretch the conceptual limits of things like "bullying" and "pecking order", using wealth to hire others to pamper coddle and protect, (not to mention using wealth for access to food and females) also becomes interesting.
Not an extremely basic physical attempt at domination like the street thug who approaches you directly as you enter the 7-11, but with enough similar 'elements' that it is worthy of at least a pondering in passing.


I happen to believe that we live in a power-based universe. Whether we are talking about stars or waves or humans or wealth.
When our own rules on behavior don't match the natural universe, they risk becoming arbitrary etiquette.

If the big male by the 7-11 in 'the receiver neighborhoods' can get the most money to fund his 40oz refreshment account, by way of intimidating patrons, and there is no recourse or threat from the establishment or the police, maybe bullying is optimum behavior in the immediate basic sense?

[VigorsTheGrey]

depending on how broadly you are willing to stretch the conceptual limits of things like "bullying" and "pecking order", using wealth to hire others to pamper coddle and protect, (not to mention using wealth for access to food and females) also becomes interesting.
Not an extremely basic physical attempt at domination like the street thug who approaches you directly as you enter the 7-11, but with enough similar 'elements' that it is worthy of at least a pondering in passing.


I happen to believe that we live in a power-based universe. Whether we are talking about stars or waves or humans or wealth.
When our own rules on behavior don't match the natural universe, they risk becoming arbitrary etiquette.

If the big male by the 7-11 in 'the receiver neighborhoods' can get the most money to fund his 40oz refreshment account, by way of intimidating patrons, and there is no recourse or threat from the establishment or the police, maybe bullying is optimum behavior in the immediate basic sense?
So true! “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”― Edmund Burke

[traynor]

If that were truly the case...then we would "give to those who ask" only when they are the menacing type. But, of course...we give to the weaklings, as well.

Nice theory though. :ThmbUp:

Not necessarily. It is the cognitive dissonance that acts as motivator (of the giver) in many cases. What kicks that off differs from person to person. That is, if one perceives himself or herself to "be" a particular type of person, she or he will behave (in many cases) in a manner consistent with that self-perception (with little or no cognitive dissonance). If that self-image is "generous to those less advantaged" (or whatever) the underlying impetus is stroking the self-image with tokenism, rather than actual altruism. Specifically, handouts could be considered tokenism by those unwilling to be more altruistic. As in, "if I give this person a couple of bucks, I don't have to think about the starving millions in Africa" (or whatever). Best example is the Sierra Club members spending buckets of cash to "save the baby fur seals" when tens of thousands of people were starving in the Horn. Tokenism to salve the self-perceptions.

In the fear response to perceived menace, it is the cognitive dissonance that acts as the motivator. The fear only acts as a catalyst to set it off.

[traynor]

depending on how broadly you are willing to stretch the conceptual limits of things like "bullying" and "pecking order", using wealth to hire others to pamper coddle and protect, (not to mention using wealth for access to food and females) also becomes interesting.
Not an extremely basic physical attempt at domination like the street thug who approaches you directly as you enter the 7-11, but with enough similar 'elements' that it is worthy of at least a pondering in passing.


I happen to believe that we live in a power-based universe. Whether we are talking about stars or waves or humans or wealth.
When our own rules on behavior don't match the natural universe, they risk becoming arbitrary etiquette.

If the big male by the 7-11 in 'the receiver neighborhoods' can get the most money to fund his 40oz refreshment account, by way of intimidating patrons, and there is no recourse or threat from the establishment or the police, maybe bullying is optimum behavior in the immediate basic sense?

Yes. It then becomes (in both cases) a matter of calibration, and using the techniques that (have been found to be) most effective. The "generous" (but condescending) patron, customer, or client is using the implied threat of withholding money as a form of behavioral manipulation that is as distinct (and prevalent) as the threat of physical harm. If you want to see how the real bullies act, spend a bit of time in Monaco and the southern coast of France. They have mastered the fine art of "financial intimidation."

[thaskalos]

Not necessarily. It is the cognitive dissonance that acts as motivator (of the giver) in many cases. What kicks that off differs from person to person. That is, if one perceives himself or herself to "be" a particular type of person, she or he will behave (in many cases) in a manner consistent with that self-perception (with little or no cognitive dissonance). If that self-image is "generous to those less advantaged" (or whatever) the underlying impetus is stroking the self-image with tokenism, rather than actual altruism. Specifically, handouts could be considered tokenism by those unwilling to be more altruistic. As in, "if I give this person a couple of bucks, I don't have to think about the starving millions in Africa" (or whatever). Best example is the Sierra Club members spending buckets of cash to "save the baby fur seals" when tens of thousands of people were starving in the Horn. Tokenism to salve the self-perceptions.


Ahhh...I like this one much better. :ThmbUp:

So...your contention is that those who habitually shun the panhandlers might be preoccupied with other, "more altruistic" endeavors. They overlook the "minor" in favor of the "greater good".

No...now that I think about it a little more, I can't say that I agree with you on this one.

[Parkview_Pirate]

...The "strange trend" is that those requesting money have apparently learned this, and are leveraging it to their advantage by escalating to a more aggressive form of behavior...

IMHO, rather than learning that being more aggressive is more effective, the panhandlers are simply becoming more aggressive as their revenue stream is drying up. Looking at employment numbers, the number of underemployed and part time employed, the rise in the number of people on food stamps, and the fact that 95% of workers are seeing their incomes remain steady or drop tells me that there's less discretionary money to hand out.

While the cause/effect relationship is obviously not simple, in this case I think the root cause does trace back to more beggars fighting for a slice of the ever shrinking pie.

[barn32]

In Las Vegas there is a homeless city downtown.

The homeless live under the underpasses of freeways and city streets--even in the suburbs. They do get washed out when it rains though. That's the purpose of most of these underpasses--it's a place for the rain to go.

Down the road apiece from where I live there is a homeless guy who fills up the underpass with just about everything you can think of. In fact about six blocks from this underpass is another one that he fills up as well.

Every so often the police come by with a small contraption capable of driving underneath the street and through the underpass scooping up all of the crap and debris he has gathered so they can haul it away.

The underpass remains clean for a few days, but it only takes a few weeks before it's full again with endless amounts of crap.

I had a cop tell me it's just one guy and most of the stuff is stolen.

[thaskalos]

In Las Vegas there is a homeless city downtown.

The homeless live under the underpasses of freeways and city streets--even in the suburbs. They do get washed out when it rains though. That's the purpose of most of these underpasses--it's a place for the rain to go.

Down the road apiece from where I live there is a homeless guy who fills up the underpass with just about everything you can think of. In fact about six blocks from this underpass is another one that he fills up as well.

Every so often the police come by with a small contraption capable of driving underneath the street and through the underpass scooping up all of the crap and debris he has gathered so they can haul it away.

The underpass remains clean for a few days, but it only takes a few weeks before it's full again with endless amounts of crap.

I had a cop tell me it's just one guy and most of the stuff is stolen.

Most of his stuff is stolen...and yet, the homeless thief remains at large? Maybe the poor guy just wants to finally get ARRESTED...so he could have a place to stay.

[barahona44]

IMHO, rather than learning that being more aggressive is more effective, the panhandlers are simply becoming more aggressive as their revenue stream is drying up. Looking at employment numbers, the number of underemployed and part time employed, the rise in the number of people on food stamps, and the fact that 95% of workers are seeing their incomes remain steady or drop tells me that there's less discretionary money to hand out.

While the cause/effect relationship is obviously not simple, in this case I think the root cause does trace back to more beggars fighting for a slice of the ever shrinking pie.
Besides that, I also think that many people are aware where the money is really going and they're getting tired of being played for chumps.

[traynor]

I grew up with people who did not believe in charity, nor in panhandling (in ANY form). Unless absolutely necessary (as in for survival) gifts--however intentioned the giver--were routinely declined. Accepting them incurred an obligation, and that obligation was considered worse (often MUCH worse) than life without the "gifts." There was no free lunch. Everything had to be paid back.

Cialdini, in Persuasion, expalined it elegantly. For those unfamiliar with the concept, it is called reciprocity.

"In social psychology, reciprocity is a social rule that says people should repay, in kind, what another person has provided for them; that is, people give back (reciprocate) the kind of treatment they have received from another. By virtue of the rule of reciprocity, people are obligated to repay favors, gifts, invitations, etc. in the future. If someone receives a gift for their birthday, a reciprocal expectation may influence them to do the same on the gift-giver's birthday. This sense of future obligation associated with reciprocity makes it possible to build continuing relationships and exchanges. Reciprocal actions of this nature are important to social psychology as they can help explain the maintenance of social norms.

A person who violates the reciprocity norm by accepting without attempting to return the good acts of others is disliked by the social group. Individuals who benefit from the group's resources without contributing any skills, helping, or resources of their own are called free riders. Both individuals and social groups often punish free riders, even when this punishment results in considerable costs to the group. Therefore, it is unsurprising that individuals will go to great lengths to avoid being seen as a moocher, freeloader, or ingrate."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocity_(social_psychology)

The present crop of panhandlers have been trained, and are being trained, to bypass the entire concept of reciprocity. Anyone who cannot understand the implications of such training on an increasingly larger scale needs to get out of the house more, and look around a bit more at the real world. All is not well beyond the borders of lala land. "Mememe" is bad enough, but tolerable. "All for me, and bleep you" has sinister connotations for the future.

[traynor]

IMHO, rather than learning that being more aggressive is more effective, the panhandlers are simply becoming more aggressive as their revenue stream is drying up. Looking at employment numbers, the number of underemployed and part time employed, the rise in the number of people on food stamps, and the fact that 95% of workers are seeing their incomes remain steady or drop tells me that there's less discretionary money to hand out.

While the cause/effect relationship is obviously not simple, in this case I think the root cause does trace back to more beggars fighting for a slice of the ever shrinking pie.

Doesn't it seem odd--given what you just wrote--that one of the big arguments for tolerance of illegal immigration is that the illegals are "only taking the jobs that real Americans don't want and won't do"?

[thaskalos]

I grew up with people who did not believe in charity, nor in panhandling (in ANY form). Unless absolutely necessary (as in for survival) gifts--however intentioned the giver--were routinely declined. Accepting them incurred an obligation, and that obligation was considered worse (often MUCH worse) than life without the "gifts." There was no free lunch. Everything had to be paid back.

Cialdini, in Persuasion, expalined it elegantly. For those unfamiliar with the concept, it is called reciprocity.

"In social psychology, reciprocity is a social rule that says people should repay, in kind, what another person has provided for them; that is, people give back (reciprocate) the kind of treatment they have received from another. By virtue of the rule of reciprocity, people are obligated to repay favors, gifts, invitations, etc. in the future. If someone receives a gift for their birthday, a reciprocal expectation may influence them to do the same on the gift-giver's birthday. This sense of future obligation associated with reciprocity makes it possible to build continuing relationships and exchanges. Reciprocal actions of this nature are important to social psychology as they can help explain the maintenance of social norms.

A person who violates the reciprocity norm by accepting without attempting to return the good acts of others is disliked by the social group. Individuals who benefit from the group's resources without contributing any skills, helping, or resources of their own are called free riders. Both individuals and social groups often punish free riders, even when this punishment results in considerable costs to the group. Therefore, it is unsurprising that individuals will go to great lengths to avoid being seen as a moocher, freeloader, or ingrate."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocity_(social_psychology)

The present crop of panhandlers have been trained, and are being trained, to bypass the entire concept of reciprocity. Anyone who cannot understand the implications of such training on an increasingly larger scale needs to get out of the house more, and look around a bit more at the real world. All is not well beyond the borders of lala land. "Mememe" is bad enough, but tolerable. "All for me, and bleep you" has sinister connotations for the future.

Is this sort of behavior only allowed when engaged by our politicians?

[traynor]

I like Jennifer Lawrence's "philosophy" expressed in Winter's Bone:
"Sonny: Maybe they'll share some of that with us.
Ree: That could be.
Sonny: Maybe we should ask.
Ree: Never ask for what oughta be offered."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1399683/quotes

And never accept that which is offered unless you (literally) cannot live without it.

[traynor]

Is this sort of behavior only allowed when engaged by our politicians?

I don't know. Other than (very loose) social structures, there does not seem to be much constraint on allowable behavior. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing in this case--like much else in life--can only be determined in retrospect, once one sees how it all turns out.

[thaskalos]

I like Jennifer Lawrence's "philosophy" expressed in Winter's Bone:
"Sonny: Maybe they'll share some of that with us.
Ree: That could be.
Sonny: Maybe we should ask.
Ree: Never ask for what oughta be offered."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1399683/quotes

And never accept that which is offered unless you (literally) cannot live without it.

I prefer the "philosophy" of Kahlil Gibran, who opined:

"Generosity is giving more than you can...and pride is taking less than you need."

[traynor]

I prefer the "philosophy" of Kahlil Gibran, who opined:

"Generosity is giving more than you can...and pride is taking less than you need."

I think it depends on one's perspective. It is not easy to consider that generosity can be detrimental to the recipient--or to even care--if one's perspective is limited to simply being generous--whatever that might be interpreted to mean.

[thaskalos]

I think it depends on one's perspective. It is not easy to consider that generosity can be detrimental to the recipient--or to even care--if one's perspective is limited to simply being generous--whatever that might be interpreted to mean.

It is also not easy to consider that PRIDE -- however interpreted -- could prove detrimental, as well.

[Parkview_Pirate]

...The present crop of panhandlers have been trained, and are being trained, to bypass the entire concept of reciprocity. Anyone who cannot understand the implications of such training on an increasingly larger scale needs to get out of the house more, and look around a bit more at the real world. All is not well beyond the borders of lala land. "Mememe" is bad enough, but tolerable. "All for me, and bleep you" has sinister connotations for the future.

Sinister connotations, indeed. Panhandlers display this negative trait, along with the incredibly naive support for Bernie Sanders we've seen this year. Marxism provides the theory of justifying this behavior, but history and common sense show this simply opens the door for political upheaval that results in tyranny - and mass murder.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Doesn't it seem odd--given what you just wrote--that one of the big arguments for tolerance of illegal immigration is that the illegals are "only taking the jobs that real Americans don't want and won't do"?

I don't buy into the accuracy of that argument. While there are surely some who don't want to work some of the lower manual labor positions most often done by illegals, I believe there's plenty of evidence to support .GOV has a method to their madness of maintaining the status quo:

- illegals provide cheap labor to skirt minimum wage laws for some jobs, especially in agriculture, to control costs (supported by Republicans)
- illegals tend to vote as they're told (supported by Democrats)
- illegals help support the growth economic model, as demographics for whites have a much slower growth, if not negative, growth rate
- illegals, who often require .GOV programs to survive, help support the .GOV growth model
- illegals, used to a lower standard of living, are providing an example of what the future holds for many of us - as government policy is clearly designed to decimate the middle class in a world of deindustrialization and diminishing resources....

[traynor]

It is also not easy to consider that PRIDE -- however interpreted -- could prove detrimental, as well.

Of course. The "ideal" would seem to be the ability to consider the effect of the behavior on the recipient--both in the short term and the long term--and possibly on others as well. It is all too easy to narrow one's perspective to the immediate self-gratification of whatever motivates one to be generous. "Doing good" is good. "Doing good" (or what one perceives to be good)--when the primary benefit is to the giver--may, intentionally, unintentionally, or simply thoughtlessly lead to outcomes detrimental to the recipient. On the other side of the left-side pond, they refer to the duality as mindlessness and mindfulness. The latter takes a bit more work, but well worth the effort. Both for one's self AND for others.

Neat old book. An Experiment in Mindfulness.
https://www.amazon.com/Experiment-Mindfulness-Admirals-Experiences-Monastery/dp/B0007DLUQS

Or for a gateway to a lot of academic writing on the topic:
http://aging.wisc.edu/pdfs/2506.pdf

[thaskalos]

Neat old book. An Experiment in Mindfulness.
https://www.amazon.com/Experiment-Mindfulness-Admirals-Experiences-Monastery/dp/B0007DLUQS

Thanks...I just ordered it. I have an extensive library of eastern-religion works...but this was a book that I never heard of before. :ThmbUp:

[traynor]

Sinister connotations, indeed. Panhandlers display this negative trait, along with the incredibly naive support for Bernie Sanders we've seen this year. Marxism provides the theory of justifying this behavior, but history and common sense show this simply opens the door for political upheaval that results in tyranny - and mass murder.

There is a video I watch occasionally, just to keep things in a proper perspective--and as a reminder of things to avoid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay4Sc6ZJg-U

[traynor]

I don't buy into the accuracy of that argument. While there are surely some who don't want to work some of the lower manual labor positions most often done by illegals, I believe there's plenty of evidence to support .GOV has a method to their madness of maintaining the status quo:

- illegals provide cheap labor to skirt minimum wage laws for some jobs, especially in agriculture, to control costs (supported by Republicans)
- illegals tend to vote as they're told (supported by Democrats)
- illegals help support the growth economic model, as demographics for whites have a much slower growth, if not negative, growth rate
- illegals, who often require .GOV programs to survive, help support the .GOV growth model
- illegals, used to a lower standard of living, are providing an example of what the future holds for many of us - as government policy is clearly designed to decimate the middle class in a world of deindustrialization and diminishing resources....


I lived in a place where the issue of illegal immigration is a daily fact of life.The reason I put the argument in quotes is a carryover from general semantics, in which quotes are used as analogical marking to indicate something is other than it seems to be on the surface. As in, the "argument" is BS. Even worse, it provides an opportunity for otherwise (possibly) law-abiding employers to lie, cheat, and steal with ruthless abandon.

The rhetoric goes, "Well, ABC Company does it, and if I don't do it, I can't compete with them." That is about as sensible as saying, "Joe Smith cheats on his taxes, so unless I cheat on my taxes, I can't afford to buy that new car I need so desperately."

Cost of doing business is less (because no fringes are deducted, lower wages) when employing illegal aliens. Solution is just as simple as solving the "drug problem." Put the employers in jail. Period. End of problem. Give it a wink wink nudge nudge, and the problem only gets worse. The employers are breaking a whole schlonk of various rules and regulations. Stop the endless debating, and put the employers (and anyone who aids and abets their illegal operations) in jail.

[traynor]

Something to watch when one is cruising on the warm fuzzies of having given a couple of bucks to a panhandler as one's contribution to the betterment of the condition of "those less fortunate."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-37211092

[traynor]

"We all like to present ourselves as kind and generous. In 2010, group of study participants in Japan were given a sum of money and told they could either keep all of it, or they could choose to share some of it with a charity selected from a list. The subjects were significantly more likely to donate their money if they thought that person on the screen in front of them was watching them.

This hunger to appear generous has an interesting effect on charitable giving websites. Although people can choose to remain anonymous when giving a donation on these sites, the majority of people give their names for public display. Researchers from University College London recently analysed 2,500 online donation pages. They found that the donations rose as soon as one person has been extra-generous, offering an extra £10 on average."
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160914-five-ways-to-encourage-generosity

What seems to some (including themselves) as generosity is often little more than impression management. When that impression management is directed at one's self, it is still no more than impression management.

In general, people are way less complex than they fancy themselves to be. And rarely as altruitstic as they believe themselves to be.

[betovernetcapper]

In my more Liberal days, I would always give money to the "unfortunate". Then at some point I broke my angle & was on crutches. I noticed that the "unfortunates" would no longer ask for money, but demand it. The straw that broke the camels back occurred one night when I'd visited a blues club with a friend & was standing with my crunches waiting for him to get the car. Two "unfortunates" approached me and one demanded a dollar & then said "my friend wants one too".

I then proceeded to "go postal" and told them to f!@# off. The "unfortunates" left abruptly in search of easier prey. At that moment I resolved never to give so much as a penny to the "unfortunates".

There is a newspaper that the "homeless" sell called Street Wise". Whenever one of them approaches me and says" buy a Street Wise & help the homeless", my response is always the same "No thanks, I have a subscription at the office" & keep walking. It usually takes about ten steps for them to realize that no one has a subscription to Street Wise. It's a little thing but it brightens my day. :)

[VigorsTheGrey]

Why is it that most of us feel obligated to leave tips whenever we eat out?

It is suppose to be for excellent service or great portions or something along those lines...but it just seems expected now just for them getting your food to you in an ordinary manner...

.Nobody ever gave me a tip for doing my job and there are millions of people who make the same hour wage at theirs who don't get tips either..

I guess I just kind of resent it with all the other taxes fees, etc...

It all adds up...I feel like I'm being nickeled and dimed and quartered everywhere I go, and now with inflation it is more like EVERYTHING is $5 bucks or more...

[Grits]

If you need to make your charitable gifts about you? You need to keep your money in your wallet, your bank accounts, or wherever. Even with the advent of ...all over the place, GoFundMe pages. Anything other than "Anonymous" is unfortunate.

"We all like to present ourselves as kind and generous. In 2010, group of study participants in Japan were given a sum of money and told they could either keep all of it, or they could choose to share some of it with a charity selected from a list. The subjects were significantly more likely to donate their money if they thought that person on the screen in front of them was watching them.

This hunger to appear generous has an interesting effect on charitable giving websites. Although people can choose to remain anonymous when giving a donation on these sites, the majority of people give their names for public display. Researchers from University College London recently analysed 2,500 online donation pages. They found that the donations rose as soon as one person has been extra-generous, offering an extra £10 on average."
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160914-five-ways-to-encourage-generosity

What seems to some (including themselves) as generosity is often little more than impression management. When that impression management is directed at one's self, it is still no more than impression management.

In general, people are way less complex than they fancy themselves to be. And rarely as altruitstic as they believe themselves to be.

[barahona44]

Why is it that most of us feel obligated to leave tips whenever we eat out?

It is suppose to be for excellent service or great portions or something along those lines...but it just seems expected now just for them getting your food to you in an ordinary manner...

.Nobody ever gave me a tip for doing my job and there are millions of people who make the same hour wage at theirs who don't get tips either..

I guess I just kind of resent it with all the other taxes fees, etc...

It all adds up...I feel like I'm being nickeled and dimed and quartered everywhere I go, and now with inflation it is more like EVERYTHING is $5 bucks or more...
Restaurants that allow tipping do not have to pay the standard minimum wage, but instead pay 2.13 an hour.If tips don't cover the 7.25 federal minimum wage or whatever the state minimum is. , the employer makes up the difference.They count on customers to essentially pay most of their servers wages directly for them.