Another One for the Stewards to Review

[Dahoss9698]

Race 6 at Louisiana Downs today. Take a look at the ride the jockey on the 6 gives through the lane and draw your own conclusions.

For the record, I did not play the race. I saw a tweet from Ray Paulick about it

[thaskalos]

And then we wonder why the grandstands are empty.

[cj]

I can't wait to hear the jockey apologists on this one.

https://twitter.com/raypaulick/status/759163427868712960

[MonmouthParkJoe]

That is pretty brutal

[cj]

You can view the whole race here, scroll towards the bottom.

https://www.caesars.com/harrahs-louisiana-downs/racing/live-racing#.V5vwBbgrKCg

[thaskalos]

How does this jockey dare to face the trainer after this race...if this ride wasn't the trainer's idea?

[johnhannibalsmith]

This is why never doing anything ever is such a joke. Absolutely no fear of even the threat of repercussion and this is what you get. Doesn't even make an effort to make it look plausible just anchored when it becomes apparent the horse has a big shot to win midstretch. If it had only two legs even the scarediest of jocks will usually let one roll on to the win for the sake of the pot.

[kevb]

Wow. Stiffed plain and simple.

[Stoleitbreezing]

Just brutal to watch. Anyone alive to the 6 or had bets on that horse just got robbed with one of the most blatant stiff jobs I've ever seen. Kevin Smith should be banned and removed from the premises. Are we sure it was Kevin Smith and not one of the Patin brothers? :bang:

Sad day for racing. He probably will be fined a 100 bucks in 3 months when they get around to reviewing this race. :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

[Augenj]

I was casually watching a favorite (not betting) at Delta one night on TVG. He's in the far turn in a gap between groups of horses in the clear. He checks him not once but twice and then hand rides to the finish out of the money. The TVG announcer started to say something and then shut up. It was stinkingly obvious. :(

[Stoleitbreezing]

I was casually watching a favorite (not betting) at Delta one night on TVG. He's in the far turn in a gap between groups of horses in the clear. He checks him not once but twice and then hand rides to the finish out of the money. The TVG announcer started to say something and then shut up. It was stinkingly obvious. :(

The veteran announcer also noticed this bogus ride, saying "Crossbow Huntress "Gingerly handled" still finished well to be second". The chart caller wrote the horse was "never asked".

[JustRalph]

I watched the first race link from Paulick and knew right away it had to be a maiden race. Somebody wants to stay a maiden. I don't have pps, what's previous on the horse? Anything close before?

[JustRalph]

How does this jockey dare to face the trainer after this race...if this ride wasn't the trainer's idea?

I have a feeling they plan on collecting 2nd place money more than a few more times. $1900 vs $7500 if they win........ :bang:

[thaskalos]

But, as Vic Stauffer likes to say, instances like these shouldn't be too troubling for us players. Instead of complaining...we should just buckle-down more on our handicapping. There is a lot of "loose money" out there... :rolleyes:

[JustRalph]

I just sent a complaint to the LA racing commission investigations division

[Augenj]

The veteran announcer also noticed this bogus ride, saying "Crossbow Huntress "Gingerly handled" still finished well to be second". The chart caller wrote the horse was "never asked".
This might have been a different race since the favorite finished out of the money. Smells like something is pervasively rotten at Delta Downs.

[Stoleitbreezing]

I watched the first race link from Paulick and knew right away it had to be a maiden race. Somebody wants to stay a maiden. I don't have pps, what's previous on the horse? Anything close before?

The horse's debut race was a non threatening 8th after missing the break and trailing early on.

Not sure why they would want to stay a Maiden, the horse was nearly 11-1 today when she was blatantly stiffed. The odds would be far less next race back.

[outofthebox]

I have a feeling they plan on collecting 2nd place money more than a few more times. $1900 vs $7500 if they win........ :bang:Think you hit it on the head. Actually being a Texas Bred she was only eligible for the $9500 purse which gives the winner $5700 before expenses. I kinda think he was riding to instructions. Either way, should get a nasty fine and suspension.

[Stoleitbreezing]

This might have been a different race since the favorite finished out of the money. Smells like something is pervasively rotten at Delta Downs.

I think you mean Louisana Downs, but you're right anything in LA should be looked at with suspicion given the recent exposure fixing at Evangeline last year.

The .80 favorite finished 4th and out of the money causing there to be a show pool boost for the longshot laden Trifecta.

:4: Custom Gerardo Mora 21.20 8.40 6.00
:6: Crossbow Huntress Kevin J. Smith 13.20 7.00
:1a: Layla Forever Rico Flores 6.00

[Augenj]

I think you mean Louisana Downs, but you're right anything in LA should be looked at with suspicion given the recent exposure fixing at Evangeline last year.

The .80 favorite finished 4th and out of the money causing there to be a show pool boost for the longshot laden Trifecta.

:4: Custom Gerardo Mora 21.20 8.40 6.00
:6: Crossbow Huntress Kevin J. Smith 13.20 7.00
:1a: Layla Forever Rico Flores 6.00
This was a 2 or 3 years ago but in any case, it was Delta Downs and I swore off betting there ever. :)

[thespaah]

Race 6 at Louisiana Downs today. Take a look at the ride the jockey on the 6 gives through the lane and draw your own conclusions.

For the record, I did not play the race. I saw a tweet from Ray Paulick about it
Wow....Looked to me like the rider on the 6 had a ton of horse. Never drew the stick. Once he had a clear shot at the leader with more than a furlong out, never angled out in the drive.
Looked very odd.
The only thing I am seeing here is the rider has explicit instructions not to hit the horse.
But jeez.....How about waving the stick so the horse could see it....
Without the benefit of PP's, I have no clue as to whether or not this was the first time for this rider with this particular horse....
in any event. This is a JDLR.....Just doesn't look right.

[EMD4ME]

As usual, all you guys are all running to out of this world conclusions.

It's so obvious that he thought there was another lap to go. He was choking in the lane but he thought it was the backstretch. :rolleyes:

Honest mistake. Turn the page, study harder than the next guy and YOU'LL be like all those other people that cashed on the winner in that race.

Stop making excuses everyone. Someone is cashing tickets on those winners.







Forgive me, I for once, wanted to see what it felt like to be on the other side of reality.

[Stoleitbreezing]

Wow....Looked to me like the rider on the 6 had a ton of horse. Never drew the stick. Once he had a clear shot at the leader with more than a furlong out, never angled out in the drive.
Looked very odd.
The only thing I am seeing here is the rider has explicit instructions not to hit the horse.
But jeez.....How about waving the stick so the horse could see it....
Without the benefit of PP's, I have no clue as to whether or not this was the first time for this rider with this particular horse....
in any event. This is a JDLR.....Just doesn't look right.

Totally agree with this. The horse while never ridden by the jockey with his hands also made no effort to angle out in deep stretch for the win. The glaring amount of horse he had to win the race was evident to me when the jockey briefly tipped out in the shadow of the wire to avoid clipping heels with the :4: and eventual winner.

[Stoleitbreezing]

. As usual, all you guys are all running to out of this world conclusions.

It's so obvious that he thought there was another lap to go. He was choking in the lane but he thought it was the backstretch. :rolleyes:

Honest mistake. Turn the page, study harder than the next guy and YOU'LL be like all those other people that cashed on the winner in that race.

Stop making excuses everyone. Someone is cashing tickets on those winners.


Nice! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:




Forgive me, I for once, wanted to see what it felt like to be on the other side of reality.

[EMD4ME]

He gave the fake "I'm riding" but his fingers were pulling BS drive.

Very common on another colony I watch closely.

[chadk66]

yea that one was pretty ugly. horse was getting in a little so I would be he is going to sell that to the stewards. that horse was so much the best he could have jerked that horse towards the grandstand and let him loose and still won.

[Robert Fischer]

'alligator arms'

[EMD4ME]

'alligator arms'


-mvKKGYUppE


You could see him in his Green silks screaming: WATCH ME RIDE THIS WINNER TO THE WIRE BOYS!!! WATCH ME DRIVE THIS HORSE HOME BABY!!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[SuperPickle]

I can't wait to hear the jockey apologists on this one.

https://twitter.com/raypaulick/status/759163427868712960

CJ, Come on comparing this to Castanon is like saying a twig is the same as a two by four. And I'm not a jockey apologist as much as a occam razor apologist.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

When I see a guy check a horse sharply in mid stretch I think there must be something wrong with the horse. When I see a guy anchor a horse like this for three furlongs and run a close second I think he's not trying to win a race.

This is frighteningly similar to Omar's ride on Masochistic. The only difference is AC knew what he had that day. I think given how this race was bet it's a jockey most likely being told to educate a horse or that he wasn't sitting on much and it turned out the horse can run.

Either way the ride is major b.s.

On another note second and third tier racing in Louisiana is essentially the WWE of horse racing. Crap goes on like this way too much.

[AltonKelsey]

I've seen hundreds of 'second only' rides over the years, mostly done with a lot more finesse than that.

Don't these guys realize how bad they look?

[EMD4ME]

I've seen hundreds of 'second only' rides over the years, mostly done with a lot more finesse than that.

Don't these guys realize how bad they look?

They don't care. There's 16 people in the stands and no one does a damn thing about it.

Apathy.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

They don't care. There's 16 people in the stands and no one does a damn thing about it.

Apathy.

True.

What are we gonna do? Play effing slot machines?:sleeping:

[EMD4ME]

True.

What are we gonna do? Play effing slot machines?:sleeping:

Honestly, I am 40 years old. I want this damn game to be around when I retire so I can play it full full full time when I'm not working.

I have no confidence there will be 2 tracks running on a Mon, Tue, Wed or Thur when I retire.

If I ever have to wager on anything BUT horse racing, I wouldn't wager a $1. I hate all forms of gambling believe it or not. Absolutely nothing but horse racing gets my attention. Nothing. Not sports, not poker, nothing.

I watch these brain dead, comatose idiots when I take a walk around that cesspool at AQU (on the racino side). I have never seen a dumber bunch of gamblers in my life.

As I watch them mindlessly punch a button, I say to myself, how low must your IQ be to wager on that video game???

Even the worst of horse racing is better than the best of any slot machine.

I'm with you pal.

[EMD4ME]

True.

What are we gonna do? Play effing slot machines?:sleeping:

You know what that jock deserves?


A crazy bettor to tackle him on the way off the horse, 15 punches throughout his body and 3 broken bones. I know I would never do that. But quite honestly, I wish some one would.

You wanna play with people's money and minds? You deserve a beating.

[kevb]

I just sent a complaint to the LA racing commission investigations division

I did too.

[v j stauffer]

But, as Vic Stauffer likes to say, instances like these shouldn't be too troubling for us players. Instead of complaining...we should just buckle-down more on our handicapping. There is a lot of "loose money" out there... :rolleyes:

I don't say that. How come everybody weighs in on a piece of film. Then someone always weighs in on how I in particular may contribute to the thread?

What makes me so lucky?

[v j stauffer]

Doesn't look good. No encouragement for the best possible placing. Zero chance I'd form a final opinion until I heard what the jockey has to say.

[outofthebox]

So the Texas bred filly was running for $9500, and there is a mdn race at Retama in Sept for $14,500 and the owner/trainer says don't want to win here, just get me a check. Do you penalize both equally?

[camourous]

It kind of reminds me of the ride Simon Husbands gave at Woodbine back in 2009. He never moved on the horse, never took the whip out and finished 2nd by a 1/2 to his brother who was battled for the top spot in the jockey standings.

The stewards suspended him for a year, he of course appealed and the suspension was thrown out when the trainer said he was "tickled pink" with the ride. He said he had specifically told the rider not to use the whip, as other riders did down the stretch, because the horse didn't like it.

Hopefully the trainer comes forward and rips him for the ride.

[Donttellmeshowme]

Anyone have the PP's for this race?

[no breathalyzer]

It wasn't that bad :liar: That might be the worst stiff i ever seen.. who ever bet that horse should get a refund.

[Ruffian1]

The Stewards need to talk to the jock as well as the trainer IMO. This is because sometimes knuckleheads say stupid things and while I don't know either of these people, I would surely offer a platform for them to incriminate themselves.

After talking to both of them, a ruling would be imminent. The severity would depend on what was said, but I can't imagine what COULD be said that would shed any light on what we can clearly see.

Every jockey in the room saw this and will await the Stewards decision. After all, the Stews are their governing body. And we all know that when the teacher let's the classroom get away with too much, the kids act poorly. A jocks colony is no different. They ride accordingly based on how loose or strict the Stewards are.

Like I said in the last thread, someday, somewhere, a set of Stewards or management will take a stand against this crap. Will it be the last one, or this one? We shall see.

[thaskalos]

Doesn't look good. No encouragement for the best possible placing. Zero chance I'd form a final opinion until I heard what the jockey has to say.

What possible reason could this jockey come up with to entice you to treat him with leniency and understanding?

[Hambletonian]

the only excuse would be if the jock thought the horse was gonna break down, and I have seen more than a few of those, including one on a horse I was a partner on.

if he had any sense, he would have pulled the horse up right away and asked for the van to complete the illusion.

instead he rode him out no problem and the horse looked perfectly fine, better than in the stretch run.

it can't be overstated, you want to stiff a horse, you need a professional. keep him tuck behind horses, in traffic, stuck down inside....you don't keep them in the clear the whole race and let them gain five lengths in the stretch run.

one year suspension for bad ride, and five more for incompetent attempt at holding a horse back.

[EMD4ME]

the only excuse would be if the jock thought the horse was gonna break down, and I have seen more than a few of those, including one on a horse I was a partner on.

if he had any sense, he would have pulled the horse up right away and asked for the van to complete the illusion.

instead he rode him out no problem and the horse looked perfectly fine, better than in the stretch run.

it can't be overstated, you want to stiff a horse, you need a professional. keep him tuck behind horses, in traffic, stuck down inside....you don't keep them in the clear the whole race and let them gain five lengths in the stretch run.

one year suspension for bad ride, and five more for incompetent attempt at holding a horse back.

I like those numbers, NO leniency in my world. :ThmbUp:

[cj]

CJ, Come on comparing this to Castanon is like saying a twig is the same as a two by four. And I'm not a jockey apologist as much as a occam razor apologist.



I didn't compare it to anything.

[cj]

Anyone have the PP's for this race?

Yes...TimeformUS, Bris, Equibase, DRF, Trackmaster, etc.

[johnhannibalsmith]

What possible reason could this jockey come up with to entice you to treat him with leniency and understanding?

If the guy has any sense he'll explain that the horse needs to stay locked into the bridle and you can't throw his head away at all and do any riding or he'll spit it out. That ought to be ample to get a thank you and dismissal if they even call him in at all.

[Track Phantom]

Not a thing will be done here. In fact, I doubt if there is any kind of press release.

[cj]

Not a thing will be done here. In fact, I doubt if there is any kind of press release.

Ray Paulick carries some weight so I'm hopeful.

[Track Phantom]

Ray Paulick carries some weight so I'm hopeful.
They are saying he had a heat stroke during the race?!?!? I don't know much about heat strokes but that sounds like pure and total BS.

[cj]

They are saying he had a heat stroke during the race?!?!? I don't know much about heat strokes but that sounds like pure and total BS.

Who said this and where? The jockey had a heat stroke? Certainly not the horse.

[thaskalos]

If the guy has any sense he'll explain that the horse needs to stay locked into the bridle and you can't throw his head away at all and do any riding or he'll spit it out. That ought to be ample to get a thank you and dismissal if they even call him in at all.

And the racing fan -- the "backbone of the industry" -- is combing through the past performances...to find out which horse is a fifth-of-a-second faster than the next.

[green80]

Stewards talking to him today.

[v j stauffer]

What possible reason could this jockey come up with to entice you to treat him with leniency and understanding?

What possible reason would cause you to think my desire to hear his description of the ride was a search on my part for leniency and understanding?

I said I wanted to hear what he had to say. Period.

[Donttellmeshowme]

Dont know if this has been brought up but maybe the trainer told the jock do not whip this horse. Did the jock even carry a whip in the race?

[EMD4ME]

Dont know if this has been brought up but maybe the trainer told the jock do not whip this horse. Did the jock even carry a whip in the race?

Maybe the trainer told him to also pull on him if in contention from the 3/16 till the wire?

[Ruffian1]

Yes, he had a whip in his right hand.

But forget that.

He had a 6-5 on him from at least the 3/8ths pole to the wire.

Meaning, he had a choke hold on him from at least the 3/8ths pole to the wire.

Never let him run an inch.

Ears pricked galloping out.

Totally comfortable stride during the race and galloping out.

Maybe it was the customers with a win ticket on him that had the heat stroke.:blush:

[outofthebox]

Word around here locally,is that he explained to the stewards that he was experiencing heat stroke, and he was just trying to finish the race safely. It's been also rumored around here that he was taken by ambulance after the race. This i heard from an racing official. Can't verify. Guess we will have to wait for a written report if there ever is one..

[cj]

Word around here locally,is that he explained to the stewards that he was experiencing heat stroke, and he was just trying to finish the race safely. It's been also rumored around here that he was taken by ambulance after the race. This i heard from an racing official. Can't verify. Guess we will have to wait for a written report if there ever is one..

If that is the case he should have pulled the horse up. This kind of crap can't be allowed to stand. For that matter, he should have taken off the mount before the race. If he truly had heat stroke no way it happened in the minute after the race started.

[outofthebox]

If that is the case he should have pulled the horse up. This kind of crap can't be allowed to stand. For that matter, he should have taken off the mount before the race. If he truly had heat stroke no way it happened in the minute after the race started.We all agree with your sentiment around here. Local jocks calling it BS.

[thaskalos]

Word around here locally,is that he explained to the stewards that he was experiencing heat stroke, and he was just trying to finish the race safely. It's been also rumored around here that he was taken by ambulance after the race. This i heard from an racing official. Can't verify. Guess we will have to wait for a written report if there ever is one..

Did the heat stroke strike precisely during the run down the stretch...or was it noticed during the post parade as well?

[JustRalph]

Word around here locally,is that he explained to the stewards that he was experiencing heat stroke, and he was just trying to finish the race safely. It's been also rumored around here that he was taken by ambulance after the race. This i heard from an racing official. Can't verify. Guess we will have to wait for a written report if there ever is one..

If I had bet on him, I would have had a stroke too

[johnhannibalsmith]

Not sure that I can buy it here but I do remember the immortal Terry Gard getting blasted in the face with a rock down the backside once. He finished the race riding the last half-mile looking like he was giving it the old windsurfer gallop. Everyone was baffled until they saw the blood. Dude was out on his feet. Or in his irons. I believe Equibase comment was 'jockey incapacitated'.

[Jeff P]

I'm not buying heatstroke as a valid excuse for the ride.

In my opinion the stewards shouldn't be buying it either.

Watch video of the stretch run carefully.

Heatstroke or not - just inside the sixteenth pole - the rider has the strength to crouch in the irons.

He is not standing straight up.

He is bending his knees at a near 90 degree angle.

This is a much harder position to hold than if you are either sitting all the way down or standing all the way up.

Try holding a 90 degree crouch for any length of time. (Seriously try it.) Your quadriceps muscles will start to burn.

Now, during the final yards - while holding this crouch - which (in my opinion) is a position that gives one maximum leverage - he then appears to apply stout restraint by smoothly and powerfully pulling back on the reigns.

Watch his hands as they move ever so slightly straight back - taking the horse's head back a bit with them.

These are hardly the actions of someone about to pass out from a heatstroke.


-jp

.

[Jeff P]

Also, watch the full replay - all 4 minutes and 12 seconds of it - including the gallop out as well as the winner being returned to the winner's circle.

The #6 horse is shown at several points in the video after the finish.

At no point in the video after the finish does the rider (Kevin Smith) attempt to pull the #6 horse up and dismount. Instead, he gallops out alongside the winner.

FYI, the winner crosses the wire at about the 1:24 mark in the full replay video.

At about the 4:00 minute mark in the replay video, just as the #4 horse is about to enter the winner's circle...

The #6 horse appears one final time - AND THE RIDER IS STILL ON THE HORSE.

Now I ask you:

Wouldn't a rider who feels like they were about to pass out from a heatstroke have asked an outrider for help on the backstretch (or at some point during the gallop out?) instead of galloping the horse out for several minutes?

Or if a rider were in obvious distress (which the video doesn't support) wouldn't an outrider have been close by asking the rider if help were needed?

After watching the full replay video:

No way I am buying heatstroke as a valid excuse for the ride.

No way should the stewards be buying it either.



-jp

.

[Track Phantom]

Also, watch the full replay - all 4 minutes and 12 seconds of it - including the gallop out as well as the winner being returned to the winner's circle.

The #6 horse is shown at several points in the video after the finish.

At no point in the video after the finish does the rider (Kevin Smith) attempt to pull the #6 horse up and dismount. Instead, he gallops out alongside the winner.

FYI, the winner crosses the wire at about the 1:24 mark in the full replay video.

At about the 4:00 minute mark in the replay video, just as the #4 horse is about to enter the winner's circle...

The #6 horse appears one final time - AND THE RIDER IS STILL ON THE HORSE.

Now I ask you:

Wouldn't a rider who feels like they were about to pass out from a heatstroke have asked an outrider for help on the backstretch (or at some point during the gallop out?) instead of galloping the horse out for several minutes?

Or if a rider were in obvious distress (which the video doesn't support) wouldn't an outrider have been close by asking the rider if help were needed?

After watching the full replay video:

No way I am buying heatstroke as a valid excuse for the ride.

No way should the stewards be buying it either.



-jp

.

It's not a valid excuse. It's a lie. He didn't have heat stroke. What happened was, after the race, when he was approached and realized the world saw what he did, he came up with something that could excuse it, at least in his mind. If every rider claimed heat stroke during the running of the race, you could have a built in reason to cheat.

He would have been better off with some other excuse. Because, now, he's blatantly admitted to not trying (his reason is he was about to pass out from heat stroke). So, the more plausible excuses like the horse didn't feel right, etc, are no longer in play. I'm sure whatever hospital he went to can shine some light on the likelihood of any credence to a heat stroke. If the doctor doesn't validate his story, it should be deemed he purposely didn't try and be banned for 10 years (ala Patin in the mid '90's).

[v j stauffer]

Also, watch the full replay - all 4 minutes and 12 seconds of it - including the gallop out as well as the winner being returned to the winner's circle.

The #6 horse is shown at several points in the video after the finish.

At no point in the video after the finish does the rider (Kevin Smith) attempt to pull the #6 horse up and dismount. Instead, he gallops out alongside the winner.

FYI, the winner crosses the wire at about the 1:24 mark in the full replay video.

At about the 4:00 minute mark in the replay video, just as the #4 horse is about to enter the winner's circle...

The #6 horse appears one final time - AND THE RIDER IS STILL ON THE HORSE.

Now I ask you:

Wouldn't a rider who feels like they were about to pass out from a heatstroke have asked an outrider for help on the backstretch (or at some point during the gallop out?) instead of galloping the horse out for several minutes?

Or if a rider were in obvious distress (which the video doesn't support) wouldn't an outrider have been close by asking the rider if help were needed?

After watching the full replay video:

No way I am buying heatstroke as a valid excuse for the ride.

No way should the stewards be buying it either.



-jp

.

Sharp Post

[chadk66]

heatstroke would be the worst argument to make. what he was doing to the horse took a lot of physical exertion which would be contrary to what you would to with heat stroke. best thing he could have done for that is let the horse go and just sit there and exert as little as possible.

[bello]

As one of the founders and Sargent at Arms of the Grassy Knoll association I invite you all to join.

I am finding it interesting how few handicappers actually study videos and replays and likely now focus on software and programs. Everyone joins in when someone points out a video. These occurrences are not the anomalies many of you are making them out to be. But software and formulas do not point these "trips" out. Only astute race watching and charting for yourselves.

In this particular case was one of two things.

1. Intent to stay a maiden and suck up in the money purse money without winning or as one astute poster pointed out, better off getting a higher in state purse in Texas.....BTW.....even happens at NYRA....I gave out to friend a Monmouth 2 year old who was tightened up at Monmouth and shipped t the Spa and won at big balloons for twice the purse money. OMG does this really happen on the big circuit? You betcha

2. Plain old fashion envelop

[Hambletonian]

At the end of the day, it is just like with the juicers...the crime is bad...but the way the industry handles it is even worse.

Something was up here, and whether it was the jockey or the connections or both, it darn well looks like fraud was committed and the suspensions should be lengthy.

However, it seems that in horse racing, crime pays...and then we wonder why the criminals all flourish.

[bello]

Judging from your screen name you are a harness man Hambletonian.

As you likely know, every day at every harness track horses are instructed to go dead to earn the all important NW $xxx in last xxx races.

The way one gets class relief is to lose. Been making a living watching this phenomenon for years. I don't publicize it because wagering is a competitive game and the more bettors who DO NOT know what occurs on the track, the better for me.

Is it right NO. But the point is, horses, jockeys. drivers, trainers, go dead every day for a variety of reason and it is astonishing how few recognize this.

[thespaah]

Honestly, I am 40 years old. I want this damn game to be around when I retire so I can play it full full full time when I'm not working.

I have no confidence there will be 2 tracks running on a Mon, Tue, Wed or Thur when I retire.

If I ever have to wager on anything BUT horse racing, I wouldn't wager a $1. I hate all forms of gambling believe it or not. Absolutely nothing but horse racing gets my attention. Nothing. Not sports, not poker, nothing.

I watch these brain dead, comatose idiots when I take a walk around that cesspool at AQU (on the racino side). I have never seen a dumber bunch of gamblers in my life.

As I watch them mindlessly punch a button, I say to myself, how low must your IQ be to wager on that video game???

Even the worst of horse racing is better than the best of any slot machine.

I'm with you pal.
Slot Machine, aka Video Lottery terminals = electronic crack...

[cj]

As one of the founders and Sargent at Arms of the Grassy Knoll association I invite you all to join.

I am finding it interesting how few handicappers actually study videos and replays and likely now focus on software and programs. Everyone joins in when someone points out a video. These occurrences are not the anomalies many of you are making them out to be. But software and formulas do not point these "trips" out. Only astute race watching and charting for yourselves.

In this particular case was one of two things.

1. Intent to stay a maiden and suck up in the money purse money without winning or as one astute poster pointed out, better off getting a higher in state purse in Texas.....BTW.....even happens at NYRA....I gave out to friend a Monmouth 2 year old who was tightened up at Monmouth and shipped t the Spa and won at big balloons for twice the purse money. OMG does this really happen on the big circuit? You betcha

2. Plain old fashion envelop

You are nuts if you think this kind of ride happens every day.

[bello]

You are nuts if you think this kind of ride happens every day.

More than once a day if you include harness racing....often every race has horses that will be in to get class relief....Cannot get to the class you belong in by sitting on the sidelines. Gotta be nuts not to understand this. But that id okay, as I said, ignorance makes prices my prices more lucrative and there is an abundance of ignorance amongst my gambling brethren.

And I would like to keep it that way.

[cj]

More than once a day if you include harness racing....often every race has horses that will be in to get class relief....Cannot get to the class you belong in by sitting on the sidelines. Gotta be nuts not to understand this. But that id okay, as I said, ignorance makes prices my prices more lucrative and there is an abundance of ignorance amongst my gambling brethren.

And I would like to keep it that way.

Well, first off I'm not including harness racing because this is a totally different sport. It is much easier to hide a live horse than it is in thoroughbred racing.

Second, this has nothing to do with what you are talking about. This was a horse that was in the clear and easily could have won the race with any effort at all from the rider. Not only was there no effort, he held the horse. If this kind of stuff goes on every day the sport wouldn't be around for another week.

[EMD4ME]

Well, first off I'm not including harness racing because this is a totally different sport. It is much easier to hide a live horse than it is in thoroughbred racing.

Second, this has nothing to do with what you are talking about. This was a horse that was in the clear and easily could have won the race with any effort at all from the rider. Not only was there no effort, he held the horse. If this kind of stuff goes on every day the sport wouldn't be around for another week.

Yes, the "professional" stiff artists are really good at stiffing a horse (break with their ass leaning back, ride dead rails, kamikaze mid race moves, bury horses into traffic and other very subtle piss poor rides). This guy obviously needs some coaching and if we had the obvious stiff (like this 1) every day, even the hardcore would quit the game.

[Dahoss9698]

More than once a day if you include harness racing....often every race has horses that will be in to get class relief....Cannot get to the class you belong in by sitting on the sidelines. Gotta be nuts not to understand this. But that id okay, as I said, ignorance makes prices my prices more lucrative and there is an abundance of ignorance amongst my gambling brethren.

And I would like to keep it that way.

I watch thousands of replays a year. I've rarely seen a ride like this if ever.

[thaskalos]

You can't expect heat strokes to strike every day.

[outofthebox]

Local friends of his said his excuse was that meds prescribed by his Dr , combined with the heat, caused him to be dizzy and trouble seeing. They also said that the stewards were understanding when they talked to him...huh...Anyway Paulick tweeted there is no immediate ban and the stewards did not respond to any calls or messages left on the answering machine.

[thaskalos]

...Anyway Paulick tweeted there is no immediate ban and the stewards did not respond to any calls or messages left on the answering machine.

Hardly surprising...

[Tom]

Why would anyone place another bet that that track?
The stewards are obviously a joke.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Why would anyone place another bet that that track?
The stewards are obviously a joke.

If nothing happens to the jockey for that, the place should be closed down.

[thaskalos]

If Louisiana Racing had any sense of decency...they would have shut down decades ago.

[EMD4ME]

Shame on any of us who wager on any Louisiana track going forward.

Everyone here should write to someone of import there. If anything just to annoy them.

Anyone have an address please?

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Shame on any of us who wager on any Louisiana track going forward.

Everyone here should write to someone of import there. If anything just to annoy them.

Anyone have an address please?

You can write me.

I love Louisiana racing. I'll wager on the Louisiana tracks till I die. I can't argue when I can Nickel and Dime a $5 WP and a $2 to $3 Ex and roll home over $500 in a single race, right? That kind of shizzy happens nearly every night in Louisiana.

When you can bet $100 total on an entire card, and honestly entertain thoughts of rolling out of there with $5K or more, then why wouldn't you be betting?

Crooked? Who gives a *((*)? If I get mine, who am I hurting?

[ReplayRandall]

You can write me.

I love Louisiana racing. I'll wager on the Louisiana tracks till I die. I can't argue when I can Nickel and Dime a $5 WP and a $2 to $3 Ex and roll home over $500 in a single race, right? That kind of shizzy happens nearly every night in Louisiana.

When you can bet $100 total on an entire card, and honestly entertain thoughts of rolling out of there with $5K or more, then why wouldn't you be betting?

Crooked? Who gives a *((*)? If I get mine, who am I hurting?

Fill up my shot-glass with whatever you're drinking......make it a double..:cool:

[thaskalos]

You can write me.

I love Louisiana racing. I'll wager on the Louisiana tracks till I die. I can't argue when I can Nickel and Dime a $5 WP and a $2 to $3 Ex and roll home over $500 in a single race, right? That kind of shizzy happens nearly every night in Louisiana.

When you can bet $100 total on an entire card, and honestly entertain thoughts of rolling out of there with $5K or more, then why wouldn't you be betting?

Crooked? Who gives a *((*)? If I get mine, who am I hurting?

Why not bet $1,000-$1,500 on an entire card...and honestly entertain thoughts of buying a brand new Mercedes?

[EMD4ME]

The last 3 posts are exactly why I come here.

You guys put a smile on a tired face :ThmbUp:

[EMD4ME]

You can write me.

I love Louisiana racing. I'll wager on the Louisiana tracks till I die. I can't argue when I can Nickel and Dime a $5 WP and a $2 to $3 Ex and roll home over $500 in a single race, right? That kind of shizzy happens nearly every night in Louisiana.

When you can bet $100 total on an entire card, and honestly entertain thoughts of rolling out of there with $5K or more, then why wouldn't you be betting?

Crooked? Who gives a *((*)? If I get mine, who am I hurting?

More power to you LDH. If you can read the "script", more power to ya!

[EMD4ME]

Fill up my shot-glass with whatever you're drinking......make it a double..:cool:

Maybe he drinks a lot when he bets Louisana? With all their crooked races, that sounds like a great plan to me! That's certainly 1 way to catch those crooks :lol:

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Well, I'd certainly pick my cards to throw that much money into the pools in the LA tracks.

$100 to W on a horse can drop it from 6/1 to 5/2 in a hurry. Maybe even 6/5 depending on the race.

All I'm saying is, I minimal bet Louisiana tracks. And why not? 20/1 shots aren't irregular. Chaos happens. 10/1 or more shots across the board Trifectas are somewhat regular.

Hey, I absolutely know it isn't for everybody, much less anybody. I like it. Most won't. Doesn't bother me a nickel.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

More power to you LDH. If you can read the "script", more power to ya!

There isn't any script.

I do find it funny, however, for someone who constantly complains about horrible jockeys and jockey rides left and right, that you feel NYRA racing is "fairer" than Louisiana racing?

I have no dog in the fight, I just find it interesting that you'll wager into races in which 5 to 7 horses with the same jockeys nearly every race, are jockeying for $2.10 to $10.40 winners, race in, and race out. Jockeys that you berated constantly.

You are happy grinding out 4 to 8 horse fields because it is "fair" racing? And when you nail a Trifecta you get rewarded with a $27 payout?

What part am I missing here?

[EMD4ME]

Yea ok..

Jocks who cut a lap out of a race in the fog, complete choke artists at EVD and Louisana's Choker.

You have to say, they lead the pack in "caught" stiff jobs.

We all know crap happens elsewhere but they do have the worst perceived larceny colony.

[EMD4ME]

There isn't any script.

I do find it funny, however, for someone who constantly complains about horrible jockeys and jockey rides left and right, that you feel NYRA racing is "fairer" than Louisiana racing?

I have no dog in the fight, I just find it interesting that you'll wager into races in which 5 to 7 horses with the same jockeys nearly every race, are jockeying for $2.10 to $10.40 winners, race in, and race out. Jockeys that you berated constantly.

You are happy grinding out 4 to 8 horse fields because it is "fair" racing? And when you nail a Trifecta you get rewarded with a $27 payout?

What part am I missing here?

Very easy, I leverage the "questions" and "scripts" and "close" jockey colony to spread appropriately to hit $38,000 worth of withholding tickets (not W-2 G's but withholding) while everyone else misses a leg because they didn't see an unsual result coming.

Pick 5 is the game's greatest bet.

I don't bet much to win or in Tri's. I leverage bankroll and opinions to navigate through 4/5/6 races where others can't/won't/aren't good at it.

P.S. What you call "fair" circuit racing is my ATM. I'd rather be the smartest fish in a medium pond VS. being a somewhat smart fish in a massive shark infested pond ;)

[Lemon Drop Husker]

P.S. What you call "fair" circuit racing is my ATM. I'd rather be the smartest fish in a medium pond VS. being a somewhat smart fish in a massive shark infested pond ;)

You do run shop at EMD. :ThmbUp:

[EMD4ME]

You do run shop at EMD. :ThmbUp:

Thanks LDH. Without Julien Couton and Battery Barton there this year, racing has been formful and riding has been solid.

Happy to see Rocco Bowen drawing away with the jockey title.

I WISH he came to NYRA. Send Send Send Send Send and can ride a closer. He looks like Jorge Chavez out there (powerful pumping action).

[AltonKelsey]

Jocks who cut a lap out of a race in the fog, complete choke artists at EVD and Louisana's Choker.

You have to say, they lead the pack in "caught" stiff jobs.

We all know crap happens elsewhere but they do have the worst perceived larceny colony.

Which do you prefer, stiff jobs you can see, or have everything happen out of sight on the backside.

[thaskalos]

Which do you prefer, stiff jobs you can see, or have everything happen out of sight on the backside.

When they are ballsy enough to stiff horses this blatantly in public view...can you imagine what they do "out of sight on the backside"?

[VigorsTheGrey]

You can write me.

I love Louisiana racing. I'll wager on the Louisiana tracks till I die. I can't argue when I can Nickel and Dime a $5 WP and a $2 to $3 Ex and roll home over $500 in a single race, right? That kind of shizzy happens nearly every night in Louisiana.

When you can bet $100 total on an entire card, and honestly entertain thoughts of rolling out of there with $5K or more, then why wouldn't you be betting?

Crooked? Who gives a *((*)? If I get mine, who am I hurting?

I appreciate your honesty Lemon Drop Husker...we all are well aware that this game, much like most endeavors involving humans and money is not always on the up and up...

...I'm always non-plused when I recall the quote attributed to the great Willie Shoemaker that "his job was to ride and stiff horses" It is almost inconceivable that racing would be exempt from human foible so common in our world...

...so I thank you for being honest about being able to somehow take advantage of, apparently, a less than square racing situation...it takes some intelligence to "exploit the exploiters"...since you say there is no script, I was wondering what your winning technique involves...is it the case of expect the unexpected....or what?

But you know I really wonder where all this leads....when we look askance at this kind of behavior, in fact exploit it ourselves, and I ask this about myself as well as any other, how can I not avoid some pitfall as well...Am I not as corrupt as the act itself?

I guess the premise is that we all do indeed want live in a moral world, where things as these ought not to happen....but I and you both know that is not how the world really is...and despite all our glances into racings' realities....we still show up, form in hand basking in it's daily carnality...tells more about ourselves than others...and the horses, broken, lain across the track, mere mirror images of our broken souls..

[EMD4ME]

Which do you prefer, stiff jobs you can see, or have everything happen out of sight on the backside.

Obviously I want the subtle on track stiff job as I'll see it.

[Dahoss9698]

Well, I'd certainly pick my cards to throw that much money into the pools in the LA tracks.

$100 to W on a horse can drop it from 6/1 to 5/2 in a hurry. Maybe even 6/5 depending on the race.

All I'm saying is, I minimal bet Louisiana tracks. And why not? 20/1 shots aren't irregular. Chaos happens. 10/1 or more shots across the board Trifectas are somewhat regular.

Hey, I absolutely know it isn't for everybody, much less anybody. I like it. Most won't. Doesn't bother me a nickel.
I think in your attempt to keep it real you're missing the big picture here. This isn't something irregular, this was a blatant stiff job in front of all of our faces. The entity trusted to protect us from this stuff has so far not done a thing and don't appear to care at all.

There is a gigantic difference between a rider being dumb and not understanding the rail is bad, or not understanding a speed favoring track or taking back a speed horse and this nonsense. This was a stiff plain and simple and his excuse is insulting to anyone with a brain.

I'm sure Louisiana tracks offer overlays and good betting opportunities so have at it. But I can't give them a dime when they cheat and steal in front of my face and tell me it's okay. That's the reason not to bet their product.

[bello]

So what is worse....the obvious stiff job done by a newbee or simpleton or the subtle stiff job that is much less obvious?

A couple of people post a couple of obvious stiffs and the place goes nuts. As if those two rides were the only stiff jobs of the year and every other race run was hunky dory

Like the shark scares every year....a few sightings of a great white and everyone goes nuts.....Than it quits down for a few years. THE SHARKS ARE STILL OUT THERE FOLKS. Just not obvious enough all of the time to bite you in the ass.

[PressThePace]

I think in your attempt to keep it real you're missing the big picture here. This isn't something irregular, this was a blatant stiff job in front of all of our faces. The entity trusted to protect us from this stuff has so far not done a thing and don't appear to care at all.

There is a gigantic difference between a rider being dumb and not understanding the rail is bad, or not understanding a speed favoring track or taking back a speed horse and this nonsense. This was a stiff plain and simple and his excuse is insulting to anyone with a brain.

I'm sure Louisiana tracks offer overlays and good betting opportunities so have at it. But I can't give them a dime when they cheat and steal in front of my face and tell me it's okay. That's the reason not to bet their product.

This pretty much sums up how I feel as well. It's not as if we're talking about something marginal here...it's a no-brainer. But by the same token, I must ask the question, is anyone really surprised? When have racing officials put the interest of the betting public ahead of the horsemen?

[johnhannibalsmith]

Re: his posts focusing on how naive the world is for caring about this one as though there aren't threads on questionable rides on this forum

Edited to include the above because once again I forgot to hit quote and a post slipped between us while I hit submit.


Maybe that's part of the point here?

That it's bad enough that you get all sort of legitimately questionable rides (as in, it isn't clear, but there's good cause to question) that never are so much as questioned officially, but then you get one that is unquestionably suspect and even people that generally disagree on those that aren't blatant yell and scream and write and call... and reportedly get what seems like a gratuitous sit-down with June and Ward where Beaver puts Ward's mind at ease and all is well with the world once again?

I don't have a clue what your point is. That nobody should give a shit about this because other people have some actual discretion and make the minimal effort to not look ridiculous in their attempts? Or that we need more posts here every day about the questionable ones? What is this crusade exactly?

How about we let the questionable ones be questionable for now and in the meantime when you get something as sorry looking to everyone as this event that we feel free to scrutinize it relentlessly in the hope that something better than 'the dog at my homework' will suffice for a ten second acquittal?

[Tom]

When they are ballsy enough to stiff horses this blatantly in public view...can you imagine what they do "out of sight on the backside"?

You mean stick needles in their backsides?

[Ruffian1]

This pretty much sums up how I feel as well. It's not as if we're talking about something marginal here...it's a no-brainer. But by the same token, I must ask the question, is anyone really surprised? When have racing officials put the interest of the betting public ahead of the horsemen?


With all due respect sir, jockeys are NOT horsemen.

They never have been nor will they ever be.

[VigorsTheGrey]

One would think jockeys were horsemen...I guess I don't understand what defines a horse man and what separates the two...some jockeys have gone on to become trainers like Vann Belvoir for one...what happened to him when he became a trainer? In Harness racing, the driver is a trainer also...are they not horsemen? :confused:

[PressThePace]

With all due respect sir, jockeys are NOT horsemen.

They never have been nor will they ever be.

With even more respect, I think you're splitting hairs in this instance because I have a notion that you knew what was meant.

[AltonKelsey]

With all due respect sir, jockeys are NOT horsemen.

They never have been nor will they ever be.

I'd like to hear you say that in the jockey's room.

[overthehill]

when i first looked at the race in the stretch i was a ltille curious why he didnt try to angle the horse out and there also seem something funny about how he was riding the horse. then upon closer review i realize that he is not sitting in on the horse i the stretch he is tushy is obviously raise up from the saddle. like is he is quasi trying to pull the horse up as opposed to trying to drive the horse to the wire. unless he had an equipment issue in deep stretch i think his riding style will be difficult to explain. i would clearly say he is not persevering with the horse.

[overthehill]

even when you stiff horse you have to give the appearance of somewhat trying. its offensive to see such a blatant non-try for the win. I think in most venues you will get fined for standing up before the finish the line. and this guy has his seat out of the saddle for at least a quarter mile before the finish.

[outofthebox]

With all due respect sir, jockeys are NOT horsemen.

They never have been nor will they ever be.And there are trainers that aren't horsemen. I worked for a very successful trainer in the 80's who would go from his office to the grandstand to watch the horses train. Never came into the shed to check horses. He paid people to do that. But he was a hell of a trainer.

[Ruffian1]

One would think jockeys were horsemen...I guess I don't understand what defines a horse man and what separates the two...some jockeys have gone on to become trainers like Vann Belvoir for one...what happened to him when he became a trainer? In Harness racing, the driver is a trainer also...are they not horsemen? :confused:

Jockey's and horsemen are two very different categories at thoroughbred tracks. I think they are considered horsemen in Equestrian circles and I don't know at all about harness. I can see why it might be confusing.
If a retired jockey becomes a trainer, does that make him a horsemen? No. Not in the eyes of most trainers.
In the truer sense of the words trainer and horseman, if you pass all the tests required you can become a trainer. A horseman is a trainer that is accomplished, astute, and has a true understanding of what a trainer and caretaker should be.
Just about anyone that wants to, can get a trainers license. That does not mean they are horseman. At least not IMO.
The day I received my trainers license, too me, I was a trainer. Over time, as I learned more and gained experience, I would like to think I became a horseman. I think that it would be up to others that observed my body of work to declare that. It wouldn't be up to me.

I hope that makes sense.

[Ruffian1]

With even more respect, I think you're splitting hairs in this instance because I have a notion that you knew what was meant.

Certainly did not mean to offend you.

It is just that there is a real difference when you work in those circles.

I was trying to make you aware of that. That's all.

[Ruffian1]

I'd like to hear you say that in the jockey's room.

Riders know full well they are not horsemen.

It is two different things on the backside.

They would not have a problem with me saying that.

[v j stauffer]

With all due respect sir, jockeys are NOT horsemen.

They never have been nor will they ever be.

Not all jockeys are horsemen.

Many many are.

I could list a hundred.

Probably many more than that.

I'll go for just a few that immediately popped into my head.

Jack Kaenel

Pete Anderson

Vann Belvoir

Ron Hansen

Johnny Longden

Bill Shoemaker

Johnny Adams

Kenny Black

Wesley Ward

Robbie Davis

Frank Gomez

Jacinto Vazquez

John Tammaro

Rosie Napravnik

Hell that's a list while nodding back to sleep.

Might be 500 - 1000

Desperately weak post! :ThmbDown:

[Ruffian1]

And there are trainers that aren't horsemen. I worked for a very successful trainer in the 80's who would go from his office to the grandstand to watch the horses train. Never came into the shed to check horses. He paid people to do that. But he was a hell of a trainer.

Very true.

There are plenty of trainers that do that. One just went into the HOF.
If that is what makes them successful, that is fine. They can be great trainers.
But , I am sure we would agree that trainers like that, are not horsemen in the truest sense of the word.

[Ruffian1]

Not all jockeys are horsemen.

Many many are.

I could list a hundred.

Probably many more than that.

I'll go for just a few that immediately popped into my head.

Jack Kaenel

Pete Anderson

Vann Belvoir

Ron Hansen

Johnny Longden

Bill Shoemaker

Johnny Adams

Kenny Black

Wesley Ward

Robbie Davis

Frank Gomez

Jacinto Vazquez

John Tammaro

Rosie Napravnik

Hell that's a list while nodding back to sleep.

Might be 500 - 1000

Desperately weak post! :ThmbDown:

I responded to "jockeys are horsemen". You agreed, then bashed me.

Some jocks went on to become horsemen but if you want to call all jocks horsemen, go right ahead.


I won't. And never will. That is a joke.

I knew John Tammaro very well for decades. He would laugh at that assertion.

I knew Kenny when he had the bug. A horseman at seventeen? Really?
Your kidding right?

And Jack Kaenel, as tremendous as he was at 15 would be the first to tell you he was not a horseman until years later.

Give me a break Vic.

Either way, please stick your opinion about my post Vic.

Go find someone else to heckle or as you would say, troll.

And remember the pearls of wisdom from a couple of months ago you posted, all trainers lie!

Go tell that to the trainers on that list.

[Donttellmeshowme]

All trainers lie
All jocks lie

[Saratoga_Mike]

"All trainers lie." No, they don't. I've interacted with one trainer for almost 20 years. On numerous occasions, he's taken actions that were against his own self-interest and in my interest. So he doesn't lie to owners. And he doesn't comment on his horses to the press.

[SuperPickle]

"All trainers lie." No, they don't. I've interacted with one trainer for almost 20 years. On numerous occasions, he's taken actions that were against his own self-interest and in my interest. So he doesn't lie to owners. And he doesn't comment on his horses to the press.

Yeah I don't think trainers lie as much as are wrong a lot. I bumped into Larry Jones in a convenience store a couple years ago. I asked him what he was up too and he replied "just ran a horse around the corner. The dummy who trains her told everyone she was a turf horse. Ran last in her turf debut today. She is NOT a turf horse."

Btw... most jockey agents implicitly tell their jockeys NOT to lie to stewards. Use Joe Talamo as an example. He's been riding in SoCal about 10 years. Scott Cheney has been in the booth all of those 10 years. They might work 20 years together. Lying ain't a smart thing to do when the guys in booth might be there 20 years. It'll be a long 20 years."

[chadk66]

With all due respect sir, jockeys are NOT horsemen.

They never have been nor will they ever be.you are 100% correct. The true meaning of "horseman" fall silent on most people.

[v j stauffer]

you are 100% correct. The true meaning of "horseman" fall silent on most people.

Well SOMEBODY has to be considered a "horseman"

Use whatever criteria you and Ruff choose. Doesn't matter. Identify who you guys 100% agree is a horseman.

Then go ask those people if they believe jockeys can be and are horsemen.

I believe you'll be very surprised by their answer.

[chadk66]

there are a few jockey's that are horsemen. but as a general rule that's not the case. can most ride the shit out of a horse? absolutely. does that make them a horsemen? not as a general rule. Just like there are quite a few trainers that win an awful lot of races that barely know which end of the horse the crap comes out of . I guess (assume) what we are both saying is that there is a whole lot more to this than being great at one or two aspects of the full spectrum of the horse and his world. But the bottom line is it really doesn't matter. the term means different things to different people.

[AltonKelsey]

straight from the horses mouth , dictionary.com
:D
Yep.

noun, plural horsemen. 1. a person who is skilled in riding a horse.

2. a person on horseback.

3. a person who owns, breeds, trains, or tends horses.

So according the them , jockeys are twice the horseman trainers are.

[cj]

Okay, back to the point, according to Ray Paulick the stewards are still investigating.

[PressThePace]

Okay, back to the point, according to Ray Paulick the stewards are still investigating.
Thank you...

[Dahoss9698]

Okay, back to the point, according to Ray Paulick the stewards are still investigating.
I guess that's a good thing. The question begs, what else are they looking at?

This should be a no brainer

[chadk66]

fast forward one year-stewards are investigation it

[v j stauffer]

I guess that's a good thing. The question begs, what else are they looking at?

This should be a no brainer

Sanctioning a jockey for less than a maximum effort is something stewards want to make 100% sure they're correct before putting a ruling out. That every bit of due diligence has been satisfied.

They know the decision will most likely be appealed.

Also as much as it's been on our radar. Issuing this decision will ramp up coverage ten fold.

This issuing of the ruling will now be the focus of not only the racing world. But the mainstream sports news cycle as well.

It's a tough one to put your signature on knowing the ramifications of the case.

One of those can't put the toothpaste back in the tube deals.

Perhaps you're correct in saying it's a no brainer. But if so it's one that takes a massive amount of thought.

[Dahoss9698]

Sanctioning a jockey for less than a maximum effort is something stewards want to make 100% sure they're correct before putting a ruling out. That every bit of due diligence has been satisfied.

They know the decision will most likely be appealed.

Also as much as it's been on our radar. Issuing this decision will ramp up coverage ten fold.

This issuing of the ruling will now be the focus of not only the racing world. But the mainstream sports news cycle as well.

It's a tough one to put your signature on knowing the ramifications of the case.

One of those can't put the toothpaste back in the tube deals.

Perhaps you're correct in saying it's a no brainer. But if so it's one that takes a massive amount of thought.
I highly doubt Kevin Smith being suspended will be the focus of the mainstream sports cycle.

Sorry that racing officials might have to make a tough decision but welcome to the real world where people have to make tough decisions every day. Not to mention, you know, their job is to make these decisions.

Smith made his decision. Let's hope his decision is rewarded with the type of suspension (years) it deserves

[Tom]

The first consideration should be to the CUSTOMERS.

[bello]

I am NOT saying this is the case, but sometimes the jocks are following trainer or owner instructions. What then?

I guess it would start with the need for the jockey to disclose that and "ratting" out someone. Let's face it, Smith did not pull because he simply felt like it.

Keeping in mind, in this industry comes with another set of problems for the "rat" which may keep them from doing so.

[v j stauffer]

I highly doubt Kevin Smith being suspended will be the focus of the mainstream sports cycle.

Sorry that racing officials might have to make a tough decision but welcome to the real world where people have to make tough decisions every day. Not to mention, you know, their job is to make these decisions.

Smith made his decision. Let's hope his decision is rewarded with the type of suspension (years) it deserves

Traditionally. Sanctions for this kind of violation are not even close to (years) as you are suggesting.

I think you may be thinking about riders who are caught using electrical devices and situations like that.

Here in California the last two I can remember who were sanctioned for not attempting to reach a maximum placing were Billy Antongeorgi and Joe Crispin.

I was one of the stewards in the Crispin matter.

Both rulings can be found at www.chrb.ca.gov

[v j stauffer]

I am NOT saying this is the case, but sometimes the jocks are following trainer or owner instructions. What then?

I guess it would start with the need for the jockey to disclose that and "ratting" out someone. Let's face it, Smith did not pull because he simply felt like it.

Keeping in mind, in this industry comes with another set of problems for the "rat" which may keep them from doing so.

If a trainer or owner instructs a jockey to not give his maximum effort that rider must reject those instructions.

If the rider choose to go along it becomes his responsibility.

[bello]

Traditionally. Sanctions for this kind of violation are not even close to (years) as you are suggesting.

I think you may be thinking about riders who are caught using electrical devices and situations like that.

Here in California the last two I can remember who were sanctioned for not attempting to reach a maximum placing were Billy Antongeorgi and Joe Crispin.

I was one of the stewards in the Crispin matter.

Both rulings can be found at www.chrb.ca.gov

Did Crispin stiff a mule?

[v j stauffer]

Did Crispin stiff a mule?

Not a big fan of the word stiff.

He was suspended 10 days for failure to give his best effort to reach a maximum placing.

He was aboard a mule in that race.

Also looked up the Billy Antongeorgi III ruling. It was 2009 and he was suspended 7 days for a similar violation.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Did Crispin stiff a mule?

Stiff a mule? How curious! The term seems almost oxymoronic...mules are portrayed as natural stubborn..."stubborn as a mule" :)

[VigorsTheGrey]

If a trainer or owner instructs a jockey to not give his maximum effort that rider must reject those instructions.

If the rider choose to go along it becomes his responsibility.

And thus the rider is placed in a tough position...reject the directions per the racing code (I assume) and displease the trainer-who may be looking to win a race down the road, and not want his horse to expend itself- or follow the instructions, please the trainer, and perhaps get more mounts in the future...

...there seems to be a natural and unavoidable conflict of interest between trainer's intentions and the racing betting public based on equine performance cycles, and when horsemen desire a peak performance from their charge...

[Dahoss9698]

Traditionally. Sanctions for this kind of violation are not even close to (years) as you are suggesting.

I think you may be thinking about riders who are caught using electrical devices and situations like that.

Here in California the last two I can remember who were sanctioned for not attempting to reach a maximum placing were Billy Antongeorgi and Joe Crispin.

I was one of the stewards in the Crispin matter.

Both rulings can be found at www.chrb.ca.gov
I wasn't thinking about anything. I was giving an opinion on what I think he deserves, which is years.

[cj]

And thus the rider is placed in a tough position...reject the directions per the racing code (I assume) and displease the trainer-who may be looking to win a race down the road, and not want his horse to expend itself- or follow the instructions, please the trainer, and perhaps get more mounts in the future...

...there seems to be a natural and unavoidable conflict of interest between trainer's intentions and the racing betting public based on equine performance cycles, and when horsemen desire a peak performance from their charge...


If I'm a rider and a trainer does that to me first thing I do is go to the stewards. Let the chips fall where they may from that point.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Not a big fan of the word stiff.



Why?

Would you not use it in this case?

[castaway01]

And thus the rider is placed in a tough position...reject the directions per the racing code (I assume) and displease the trainer-who may be looking to win a race down the road, and not want his horse to expend itself- or follow the instructions, please the trainer, and perhaps get more mounts in the future...

...there seems to be a natural and unavoidable conflict of interest between trainer's intentions and the racing betting public based on equine performance cycles, and when horsemen desire a peak performance from their charge...

There's a big difference between what you're talking about and what happened here though. The end result might be the same in some cases. For example, a turf horse running in a dirt race off a layoff, it's logic to say "This horse might need a race", which is probably what the trainer told the rider too. In this case, I don't think a trainer usually instructs "If you're a length from the lead in the stretch and barely have to exert any further effort to win, be sure to go stiff as a board and totally stop urging the horse so you don't win".

I usually come down on the side of rider incompetence rather than outright cheating, but how much more blatant can it be than this race?

[barn32]

If I'm a rider and a trainer does that to me first thing I do is go to the stewards. Let the chips fall where they may from that point.So, you're a jockey, with a mortgage, and two kids. People have to eat.

It would be his word against theirs. And, his career, if not ruined, would notice a severe drop in income.

Be realistic. This kind of thing has always happened, is happening, and will always continue to happen.

I's the nature of the business.

[bello]

If I'm a rider and a trainer does that to me first thing I do is go to the stewards. Let the chips fall where they may from that point.

I know your feeling about harness racing and tbred racing being different. And that is one of the reasons I mostly switched my tack to t'breds as harness racing conditions actually encourage drivers to be instructed to "go dead" for class relief.

If a harness driver went to the stewards that would be the last drive they would get.

Though not as rampant as t'bred racing does not have built in class relief other than claiming races....horses are still spotted for certain races or are being dirtied up for a price. I don't think many jocks will go to the stewards in reality. They will just follow the instructions of their employers

[Saratoga_Mike]

1) So, you're a jockey, with a mortgage, and two kids. People have to eat.

It would be his word against theirs. And, his career, if not ruined, would notice a severe drop in income.

Be realistic. This kind of thing has always happened, is happening, and will always continue to happen.

2) It's the nature of the business.

1) You could use that line of reasoning to justify just about anything. Why did you rob the bank? Well, as barn32 said, I gotta feed my kids.

2) Yes, the business is doing really well. :rolleyes:

[v j stauffer]

I wasn't thinking about anything. I was giving an opinion on what I think he deserves, which is years.

Finally some honesty. I glimpse into your posting procedures.

" I wasn't thinking about anything "

[v j stauffer]

If I'm a rider and a trainer does that to me first thing I do is go to the stewards. Let the chips fall where they may from that point.

Exactly correct. It's not always easy to do the right thing. However, in the long run it will never betray you.

Sharp Post CJ

[v j stauffer]

Why?

Would you not use it in this case?

Pretty much.

That word just gives me the willy's.

I know it goes on.

Just tough to deal with the bad guys in a sport I love and believe in so much.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Pretty much.

That word just gives me the willy's.

I know it goes on.

Just tough to deal with the bad guys in a sport I love and believe in so much.

First, I think the term is thrown around far too loosely, but not in this case. If you love the sport, which I do not doubt, you shouldn't advocate sweeping problems under the rug. That's absolutely the wrong approach. The saying "sunshine is the best disinfectant" has merit.

[v j stauffer]

Why?

Would you not use it in this case?

When I was a teenager I worked as a groom for Charlie Whittingham at San Luis Rey Down near Del Mar.

His brother Joe ran the operation. We would see Charlie maybe twice a month.

It's where he'd keep his lay ups and two year olds who just came in from the farm.

They'd get shipped to Charlie when it was time to start to tighten the screws and get ready to run.

One year I was rubbing a lovely filly named Buck's Belle. We became good friends and I was sad when she went to CW at Santa Anita.

She was ready to run later that year and made her first start at Del Mar.

Boy was I charged up. So much so I asked for and was given permission to come to the paddock for her race.

I was standing right next to Charlie when Shoemaker walked up. Here is what he said.

" This is a nice filly" I think she'll be a lot better when she goes long" Make sure she get's a lot of dirt in her face down the backside" Swing her out at the top of the stretch and see what you can get" Be sure she gallops out strong"

The race went EXACTLY as planned. She finished a pretty good looking 4th.

What's you guys take on that.

I honestly don't have an opinion.

Want to know what you think?

[v j stauffer]

First, I think the term is thrown around far too loosely, but not in this case. If you love the sport, which I do not doubt, you shouldn't advocate sweeping problems under the rug. That's absolutely the wrong approach. The saying "sunshine is the best disinfectant" has merit.

I have zero problem with that.

[Robert Fischer]

Update??

checking back in with this thread


So, how long did they suspend this guy for?

[outofthebox]

Update??

checking back in with this thread


So, how long did they suspend this guy for?Nothing announced yet. But locally the word is that the stewards went along with his explanation of being impaired of giving his utmost effort from a reaction to presc. meds and heat. I do not know if this matter is being put before the Racing Commission. They have been awfully quiet about it over there at LAD.

[Saratoga_Mike]

"Swing her out and see what you can get." Nothing wrong with that. If he had the horse to win, he would have won. Charlie didn't say, "she'll never win going short, so don't even try with her in the stretch."

[Dahoss9698]

Finally some honesty. I glimpse into your posting procedures.

" I wasn't thinking about anything "
Do you really want to go there Vic?

[Dahoss9698]

When I was a teenager I worked as a groom for Charlie Whittingham at San Luis Rey Down near Del Mar.

His brother Joe ran the operation. We would see Charlie maybe twice a month.

It's where he'd keep his lay ups and two year olds who just came in from the farm.

They'd get shipped to Charlie when it was time to start to tighten the screws and get ready to run.

One year I was rubbing a lovely filly named Buck's Belle. We became good friends and I was sad when she went to CW at Santa Anita.

She was ready to run later that year and made her first start at Del Mar.

Boy was I charged up. So much so I asked for and was given permission to come to the paddock for her race.

I was standing right next to Charlie when Shoemaker walked up. Here is what he said.

" This is a nice filly" I think she'll be a lot better when she goes long" Make sure she get's a lot of dirt in her face down the backside" Swing her out at the top of the stretch and see what you can get" Be sure she gallops out strong"

The race went EXACTLY as planned. She finished a pretty good looking 4th.

What's you guys take on that.

I honestly don't have an opinion.

Want to know what you think?
Look at me!!!!

Look at me!!!!

[Donttellmeshowme]

When I was a teenager I worked as a groom for Charlie Whittingham at San Luis Rey Down near Del Mar.

His brother Joe ran the operation. We would see Charlie maybe twice a month.

It's where he'd keep his lay ups and two year olds who just came in from the farm.

They'd get shipped to Charlie when it was time to start to tighten the screws and get ready to run.

One year I was rubbing a lovely filly named Buck's Belle. We became good friends and I was sad when she went to CW at Santa Anita.

She was ready to run later that year and made her first start at Del Mar.

Boy was I charged up. So much so I asked for and was given permission to come to the paddock for her race.

I was standing right next to Charlie when Shoemaker walked up. Here is what he said.

" This is a nice filly" I think she'll be a lot better when she goes long" Make sure she get's a lot of dirt in her face down the backside" Swing her out at the top of the stretch and see what you can get" Be sure she gallops out strong"

The race went EXACTLY as planned. She finished a pretty good looking 4th.

What's you guys take on that.

I honestly don't have an opinion.

Want to know what you think?




Basically he wanted the horse to get some race experience and didnt care if she won or lost.

[barn32]

1) You could use that line of reasoning to justify just about anything. Why did you rob the bank? Well, as barn32 said, I gotta feed my kids.

Bad analogy. There is a big difference between stealing and not trying. And there is no guarantee that an all out effort would matter anyway.

I think you understood the point I was trying to make. Jockeys who ignore trainer instructions will probably not be working much only to be replaced with jockeys who do follow instructions.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Bad analogy. There is a big difference between stealing and not trying. And there is no guarantee that an all out effort would matter anyway.


Perfect analogy.

I'm talking about THIS case. In this case, it would have mattered.

[Mulerider]

Stiff a mule? How curious! The term seems almost oxymoronic...mules are portrayed as natural stubborn..."stubborn as a mule" :)

The mule's stubbornness is usually the result of asking the mule to do something that it perceives could harm it. Mules have a remarkable sense of self-preservation. I've heard it said that you could train a horse to obey so well that it would ride you off a cliff if you asked it to. The mule's attitude is, you want to go over the cliff, fine. I'm not going with you.

Back to LAD. Does anyone know why Richard Eramia is on suspension? DRF said it was for a riding infraction but didn't go into detail. Eramia can get pretty aggressive with his rides, but I don't remember any prior suspensions.

[VigorsTheGrey]

The mule's stubbornness is usually the result of asking the mule to do something that it perceives could harm it. Mules have a remarkable sense of self-preservation. I've heard it said that you could train a horse to obey so well that it would ride you off a cliff if you asked it to. The mule's attitude is, you want to go over the cliff, fine. I'm not going with you.

Back to LAD. Does anyone know why Richard Eramia is on suspension? DRF said it was for a riding infraction but didn't go into detail. Eramia can get pretty aggressive with his rides, but I don't remember any prior suspensions.

Love your Avatar! That mule may not go over a cliff with you but it sure can hurdle! That's hilarious! But really I have nothing but respect for mules...maybe the saying should be "Patient as a mule"....by the way, do mules bray regularly just before sunset? I keep hearing an animal in my neighborhood braying near sunset and I'm wondering if it is a longear?

[Mulerider]

Love your Avatar! That mule may not go over a cliff with you but it sure can hurdle! That's hilarious! But really I have nothing but respect for mules...maybe the saying should be "Patient as a mule"....by the way, do mules bray regularly just before sunset? I keep hearing an animal in my neighborhood braying near sunset and I'm wondering if it is a longear?

You're probably hearing a donkey. They're a lot more vocal than mules.

You know, I pulled that avatar off the web and I'm still wondering if that mule is making the jump from a standing start.

Like this. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO-ULQOzV6s)

[v j stauffer]

Basically he wanted the horse to get some race experience and didnt care if she won or lost.

That is 100% correct. My question is that being ethical to the bettors?

[v j stauffer]

Do you really want to go there Vic?

C'mon. You have to be just funning. You can't possibly, honestly think threatening me will have any effect on what I post and how I present it. I reconciled you away many many moons ago. Hate for the sake of hate is so pathetic it can't even blip my screen. Enjoy yourself. But do know you're flying solo.

I'm at the most happy point of my 57 years.

My wife and I think we did an OK job with her daughter who left Wed. for College in Germany.

I'm having a stone cold blast covering the Pittsburg Diamonds.

Handicapping tournaments are WAY ahead of schedule and I'm enjoying each one more than the one before.

I'm really loving the threads where speaking about stewarding comes into play.

AND,I'm starting to feel the pangs of wanting to call again. Since Dec 22 2013 I've rarely thought about calling. Just recently I've found myself watching the races closer and listening to the super talented next wave of young announcers. They're really good.

It's made me start remembering the passion rush that comes along with a great field of Stakes Horses turn for home. I'm sure I want to feel that again and intend to seek out the PERFECT spot to feel it.

Of course, needless to say, you're welcome to continue saying whatever you feel you need. About me, my career, my family. Nothing has ever been off limits with you. I expect that won't change.

But one other thing also hasn't changed and NEVER will. I DO NOT CARE what you say and it WILL NOT EVER stop me from sharing this great sport with the real fans hear on PA.

Might be time to find someone else to try to bully. :ThmbUp:

[rastajenk]

Back to LAD. Does anyone know why Richard Eramia is on suspension? DRF said it was for a riding infraction but didn't go into detail. Eramia can get pretty aggressive with his rides, but I don't remember any prior suspensions."Suspended seven calendar days July 29, 2016 through August 4, 2016, inclusive, for careless riding during the running of race 6, July 20, 2016, at Louisiana Downs, resulting in the disqualification of his mount, “Gold Chrome”, from first to third place."

He also had a suspension the month before, 6/11/16, race 5.

[Stoleitbreezing]

Nothing announced yet. But locally the word is that the stewards went along with his explanation of being impaired of giving his utmost effort from a reaction to presc. meds and heat. I do not know if this matter is being put before the Racing Commission. They have been awfully quiet about it over there at LAD.

If that's the case and they bought this guy's story then shame on the stewards :ThmbDown: Some savvy board members have already pointed out how he was seated on the horse and how difficult that would be considering his apparent "heat stroke" during the race. I mentioned that he appeared to want to "cover the horse up" behind the eventual winner, but had to tip out slightly not to run on that horses heels before the wire. That's not something I would think he would have the presence of mind to do if he was truly in "distress". I would think he would be in the middle of the track someplace away from others positioned in the saddle a lot differently if that was the case.

Regardless of what Vic mentioned of similar behavior in California yielded for punishment, Kevin Smith's behavior should be punished by year(s). The blatant non-effort he "rode" the horse with, and the ridiculous excuse isn't fooling anyone. Its strange to me this somehow came up "only" during the race and that he rode another horse after the race. :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

[Mulerider]

"Suspended seven calendar days July 29, 2016 through August 4, 2016, inclusive, for careless riding during the running of race 6, July 20, 2016, at Louisiana Downs, resulting in the disqualification of his mount, “Gold Chrome”, from first to third place."

He also had a suspension the month before, 6/11/16, race 5.

Thank you. Just checked the replays. The July 20 incident was pretty clear from the head-on shot.

Mule

[Dahoss9698]

C'mon. You have to be just funning. You can't possibly, honestly think threatening me will have any effect on what I post and how I present it. I reconciled you away many many moons ago. Hate for the sake of hate is so pathetic it can't even blip my screen. Enjoy yourself. But do know you're flying solo.

I'm at the most happy point of my 57 years.

My wife and I think we did an OK job with her daughter who left Wed. for College in Germany.

I'm having a stone cold blast covering the Pittsburg Diamonds.

Handicapping tournaments are WAY ahead of schedule and I'm enjoying each one more than the one before.

I'm really loving the threads where speaking about stewarding comes into play.

AND,I'm starting to feel the pangs of wanting to call again. Since Dec 22 2013 I've rarely thought about calling. Just recently I've found myself watching the races closer and listening to the super talented next wave of young announcers. They're really good.

It's made me start remembering the passion rush that comes along with a great field of Stakes Horses turn for home. I'm sure I want to feel that again and intend to seek out the PERFECT spot to feel it.

Of course, needless to say, you're welcome to continue saying whatever you feel you need. About me, my career, my family. Nothing has ever been off limits with you. I expect that won't change.

But one other thing also hasn't changed and NEVER will. I DO NOT CARE what you say and it WILL NOT EVER stop me from sharing this great sport with the real fans hear on PA.

Might be time to find someone else to try to bully. :ThmbUp:

Your posts are getting more and more pathetic with each one. I didn't think it possible.

For the record, I've never said a word about your family. I've also never bullied you.

Look, I know this is hard for you. You're such an egomaniac and you're so desperate to stay in the limelight. That's why you fell the need to start a thread each time you do something. No one cares. I mean seriously, outside of like 3 or 4 dimwits who are still somehow fooled by this act, no one cares.

If you want to keep pushing me, I'll keep pushing back. But I've purposely tried to stop because whether you believe it or not I actually feel really bad for you. It must suck wanting something so bad and knowing you'll never be able to get it again because of your own actions.

But there has to be better way to get attention, no?

You can keep pretending to be a good guy and you can keep trying to make me the big bad wolf. But I'll ask you an honest question and I hope you'll answer it honestly.

If you are indeed interested in calling again, wouldn't you think it'd make sense to clean up your act a bit? I mean, lots of announcers post on horse racing message boards and none of them act like you do. In fact I've never seen someone in the industry act like you do. Why is that you think?

[Norm Gold]

https://youtu.be/4M1eXVFE6fk

[Dahoss9698]

https://youtu.be/4M1eXVFE6fk
I must be pretty special. 5 years a member here and you finally decide to post and it's to me!

[v j stauffer]

Your posts are getting more and more pathetic with each one. I didn't think it possible.

For the record, I've never said a word about your family. I've also never bullied you.

Look, I know this is hard for you. You're such an egomaniac and you're so desperate to stay in the limelight. That's why you fell the need to start a thread each time you do something. No one cares. I mean seriously, outside of like 3 or 4 dimwits who are still somehow fooled by this act, no one cares.

If you want to keep pushing me, I'll keep pushing back. But I've purposely tried to stop because whether you believe it or not I actually feel really bad for you. It must suck wanting something so bad and knowing you'll never be able to get it again because of your own actions.

But there has to be better way to get attention, no?

You can keep pretending to be a good guy and you can keep trying to make me the big bad wolf. But I'll ask you an honest question and I hope you'll answer it honestly.

If you are indeed interested in calling again, wouldn't you think it'd make sense to clean up your act a bit? I mean, lots of announcers post on horse racing message boards and none of them act like you do. In fact I've never seen someone in the industry act like you do. Why is that you think?

Once upon a time I was a lot more volatile and confrontational than I am now. I've pretty much played it straight for quite some time. It's more fun to trade views on racing than wasting time sniping. Therefore the change in emphasis.

What I'll never understand is why you seem to feel the need to analyze and ultimately bash everything I say?

Pretending to be a good guy? I don't even know what that means. I think I am a good guy.

Why does it make me an egomaniac because I post stories about different things I do?

The great majority of people who read those postings respond to the content. Not whether or not I've succeeded in keeping myself in some sort of limelight.

If I am in fact trying to feed my out of control ego, begging for adulation, why would I do it here? No chance I could win. You will immediately slam the door thereby making it impossible for me to quench any form of ego thirst. With you on the watch how could I ever succeed?

What exactly is it that I am "wanting so bad"? And how can you know what the future holds regarding that desire? If you're talking about announcing, I've said (only when asked) I'm starting to get excited about getting back into the booth. But at this stage in my life, only in the PERFECT scenario.

You feel really bad for me? Of course that's total BS. What I don't get is why you feel bad? What makes you feel bad? I don't feel bad. Just yesterday I stated I felt happier in my life now than at any point since Hollywood Park closed. I'm VERY happy. Honest! So what would there be for you to feel bad for me about?

Another threat from you is " If you keep pushing me" " I'll push back" I'm not pushing anything. I know nothing about you. I do not know who you are. The only push I apply is to remind all the horrible/hateful things you say are meaningless. Where is the pushing on my part?

You advised I " clean up my act " if I wish to consider returning to race calling. You say other announcers post on this board and they don't act like I do. In fact nobody in the industry acts like I do.

What would be your definition of " cleaning up my act " and acting properly like the other announcers do. What specifically would you advise?

And if you must share what are your qualifications for knowing what I should do?

You don't know anything about me. You don't know what makes me tick. What's important (life wise) to me. You cannot possibly know anything about me. I'll say it again. You cannot possibly know anything about me.

Since I toned down some of my posts I've really started enjoying PA again. Why can't I simply rejoice in that?

Why won't you stop picking on me?

You know NOTHING about me!

[chadk66]

Damn it V J I didn't even know who you were. This changes everything:lol:

[Dahoss9698]

Why won't you stop picking on me?

You know NOTHING about me!
Dude, you blab non stop about yourself. Every single post is some sort of personal story or something about your life. Couple that with the countless negative stories about you and your actions during your various jobs in racing means the members here know a lot about you.

The last 3 or 4 interactions we've had have been you egging me on and me eventually responding. Can you really cry about someone picking on you, when you egg it on?

Im not going to let you do this anymore though. If you want attention you'll have to seek it elsewhere. Best of luck with all your future endeavors.

[Stoleitbreezing]

I tweeted to Jay Privman the other day about this issue after he reported Kent got suspended for 3 days for a DQ. I can't find any recent news about the LAD situation, but Jay said the stews bought his story. Goes to show that the horseplayers mean nothing to them. :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

Jay Privman ‏@DRFPrivman Aug 5
@StoleItBreezing hey Jason the stewards there believed his excuse (heat exhaustion or sumthin). Vote with your $$$

[cj]

I tweeted to Jay Privman the other day about this issue after he reported Kent got suspended for 3 days for a DQ. I can't find any recent news about the LAD situation, but Jay said the stews bought his story. Goes to show that the horseplayers mean nothing to them. :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

Jay Privman ‏@DRFPrivman Aug 5
@StoleItBreezing hey Jason the stewards there believed his excuse (heat exhaustion or sumthin). Vote with your $$$

I would if I could, but it would be impossible to reduce my handle below current levels at Louisiana Downs. It is a terrible, terrible product and that is not even considering this kind of crap getting "excused".

[green80]

I would if I could, but it would be impossible to reduce my handle below current levels at Louisiana Downs. It is a terrible, terrible product and that is not even considering this kind of crap getting "excused".

Hey, some of us have to make a living here!

But you are right, poor management, they are more concerned about the casino and slot machines and it seems the management views racing as a necessary evil. Could be a nice place to run, as it was back in the 80"s. I guess 5 casino's within about 10 miles of the track takes it's toll.

[cj]

Hey, some of us have to make a living here!

But you are right, poor management, they are more concerned about the casino and slot machines and it seems the management views racing as a necessary evil. Could be a nice place to run, as it was back in the 80"s. I guess 5 casino's within about 10 miles of the track takes it's toll.

The company I work for sells PPs. Of course I want every track to be a viable product that is interesting for horseplayers. That said, there are a few that I would never steer anyone to and LaD fits the mold.

I recommend the unlimited PPs! :)

[green80]

The company I work for sells PPs. Of course I want every track to be a viable product that is interesting for horseplayers. That said, there are a few that I would never steer anyone to and LaD fits the mold.

I recommend the unlimited PPs! :)

Is it the poor quality of the horses or other reasons? From where I am, it's not that bad other than the low purse structure which, of course does not attract the best of horses. That can work to your advantage if the horses you have aren't that good anyway.

[EMD4ME]

The company I work for sells PPs. Of course I want every track to be a viable product that is interesting for horseplayers. That said, there are a few that I would never steer anyone to and LaD fits the mold.

I recommend the unlimited PPs! :)


Off topic, thanks to you and Kash, I bought the unlimited yearly PPS.

Tell your people that !

[Pensacola Pete]

Couple that with the countless negative stories about you and your actions during your various jobs in racing


I haven't seen or heard of any such things. Do you have URLs to reputable sources that detail the alleged negative stories?

[cj]

Can we end the Vic discussion and get back to the topic at hand please? Aren't there enough threads where Vic is the topic?

[Pensacola Pete]

Can we end the Vic discussion and get back to the topic at hand please? Aren't there enough threads where Vic is the topic?

That's fine with me, Chief. I just wanted to see if there was any substance to what Dahoss9698 said or if he/she is just another blowhard with an agenda.

[Dahoss9698]

That's fine with me, Chief. I just wanted to see if there was any substance to what Dahoss9698 said or if he/she is just another blowhard with an agenda.
You're familiar with Google right? Do I need to explain how it works or you think you can figure it out all by yourself?

[Donttellmeshowme]

Yep that took about 5 mins to take down

[cj]

Yep that took about 5 mins to take down

You can always apply for a moderator job with the owner PA!

[EMD4ME]

You can always apply for a moderator job with the owner PA!

Can I nominate someone else for a moderator job with PA? :)

Just to be clear, I wasn't knocking the resident moderator, he does a fine job. Was referrring to bring someone "back", with a BIG SPLASH, as a moderator ;)

[no breathalyzer]

Yep that took about 5 mins to take down
:D 4 mins longer then mine

[outofthebox]

Finally an explanation from the stewards. They should of put a sock in the mouth of the trainer. Can someone please post the link off the Paulick Report. Thanks

[EMD4ME]

Finally an explanation from the stewards. They should of put a sock in the mouth of the trainer. Can someone please post the link off the Paulick Report. Thanks


http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/jockey-excused-gingerly-handling-filly-louisiana-downs-race/

[Stoleitbreezing]

Explanation was garbage. I watched the race and gallop out and saw nothing with respect to the outriders. Smith did not appear to be in distress and was actually "motionless" throughout while having plenty of horse. One would think if a jockey was feeling lousy and couldn't see, he'd make more of an effort to pull the horse up or steer the horse widest of all to avoid potential collisions with others. It was a bs ride on a bs Track overseen by bs stewards. No one should bet that dump again. :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

[ReplayRandall]

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/jockey-excused-gingerly-handling-filly-louisiana-downs-race/

After reading that lovely explanation, I do believe I feel a bout of diarrhea coming on...:faint:

[kevb]

It seems like the stewards have lost control of the races in Louisiana. They practically gave this guy a medal of valor for his ride. Now they might as well give out a cash award each week for the best excuse for not giving maximum effort and affording the horse an opportunity to win.

What's wrong with saying "OK, from your point of view, you did the right thing. You weren't feeling well, so you rode like a statue. But a rule's a rule, you didn't give a best effort to win. Suspension and fine. Case closed.

[thaskalos]

Typical reaction by the stewards...and conclusive proof that the position of steward has outlived its usefulness. Get these bums out of there...and let some people with at least an ounce of integrity police this sport.

[v j stauffer]

Explanation was garbage. I watched the race and gallop out and saw nothing with respect to the outriders. Smith did not appear to be in distress and was actually "motionless" throughout while having plenty of horse. One would think if a jockey was feeling lousy and couldn't see, he'd make more of an effort to pull the horse up or steer the horse widest of all to avoid potential collisions with others. It was a bs ride on a bs Track overseen by bs stewards. No one should bet that dump again. :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

This is exactly why I stated a couple of weeks ago that ruling a rider didn't put forth maximum effort is by far the toughest, most important thing stewards do.

It's almost as though they are forced PROVE he did stiff the horse.

Once a rider receives that type of ruling it had better be 100% correct. It's like a Scarlet letter he'll be forced to carry and explain for the rest of his career.

There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO chance I could have signed a ruling saying what he did was corrupt, race fixing, stiffing or whatever you'd like to call it. No Chance.

In this instance the stewards had two sources of information. First and foremost the video tape. Did the rider attempt to achieve a maximum placing? Of course not! A rank amateur at watching races could see that very clearly. His horse was never urged forward at any point in the race. No effort. Period.Very easy film to analyze.

The second consideration is the testimony. Of the people involved. Then most importantly the jockey himself. Extremely important.

The jockey stated he was in severe physical distress while riding the horse. How can a steward simply summarily dispatch that and say BS you're lying? How could a steward know that for sure? Because remember if he tosses that testimony in the garbage he's saying to the rider. You're a race fixer! What if he really was sick?

Therefore either there is an explanation for the damming video tape or there isn't. Prior to this incident he had no allegations or similar investigations against him. Betting patterns showed nothing irregular.

The next thing you do is search for reasons to either solidify or discredit his story.

Plenty of testimony there. All from people who didn't have a dog in the hunt. The outriders, the EMT's and perhaps most importantly the hospital staff who confirmed he was in terrible shape when admitted just after the race.

How can you carry the burden of being wrong and badly damaging a career? Could everything being said be total bullshit? Sure. It's possible. But if any part of you as a steward thinks in fact he was suffering and incapacitated. His choices during the running of the race become irrelevant. His number one priority then became try not to get killed or kill someone else.

Do I think there's a chance he brazenly just stiffed this horse effectively saying **** YOU to all bettors, regulators and the game itself? Sure there's a chance.

But IMO opinion there's a MUCH MUCH larger chance nothing like that happened and he actually was in a very dangerous physical state.

The steward have said he must have a clean bill of health before being cleared to ride again. IMO that's as far as this situation can go.

[thaskalos]

This is exactly why I stated a couple of weeks ago that ruling a rider didn't put forth maximum effort is by far the toughest, most important thing stewards do.

It's almost as though they are forced PROVE he did stiff the horse.

Once a rider receives that type of ruling it had better be 100% correct. It's like a Scarlet letter he'll be forced to carry and explain for the rest of his career.

There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO chance I could have signed a ruling saying what he did was corrupt, race fixing, stiffing or whatever you'd like to call it. No Chance.

In this instance the stewards had two sources of information. First and foremost the video tape. Did the rider attempt to achieve a maximum placing? Of course not! A rank amateur at watching races could see that very clearly. His horse was never urged forward at any point in the race. No effort. Period.Very easy film to analyze.

The second consideration is the testimony. Of the people involved. Then most importantly the jockey himself. Extremely important.

The jockey stated he was in severe physical distress while riding the horse. How can a steward simply summarily dispatch that and say BS you're lying? How could a steward know that for sure? Because remember if he tosses that testimony in the garbage he's saying to the rider. You're a race fixer! What if he really was sick?

Therefore either there is an explanation for the damming video tape or there isn't. Prior to this incident he had no allegations or similar investigations against him. Betting patterns showed nothing irregular.

The next thing you do is search for reasons to either solidify or discredit his story.

Plenty of testimony there. All from people who didn't have a dog in the hunt. The outriders, the EMT's and perhaps most importantly the hospital staff who confirmed he was in terrible shape when admitted just after the race.

How can you carry the burden of being wrong and badly damaging a career? Could everything being said be total bullshit? Sure. It's possible. But if any part of you as a steward thinks in fact he was suffering and incapacitated. His choices during the running of the race become irrelevant. His number one priority then became try not to get killed or kill someone else.

Do I think there's a chance he brazenly just stiffed this horse effectively saying **** YOU to all bettors, regulators and the game itself? Sure there's a chance.

But IMO opinion there's a MUCH MUCH larger chance nothing like that happened and he actually was in a very dangerous physical state.

The steward have said he must have a clean bill of health before being cleared to ride again. IMO that's as far as this situation can go.

Then, for the sake of us horseplayers...it's a good thing that you are returning to the announcer's booth, instead of to the steward's box.

Did you watch the gallop-out after the race, Vic....to see if you could spot these apparent 'distress' signals on the part of the jockey? Shouldn't this jockey have made a more obvious attempt to pull up his horse...if he was suffering from a physical malady which required immediate hospital care?

Is it difficult to mislead the outriders and the hospital staff into thinking that you don't feel well?

[v j stauffer]

Then, for the sake of us horseplayers...it's a good thing that you are returning to the announcer's booth, instead of to the steward's box.

Did you watch the gallop-out after the race, Vic....to see if you could spot these apparent 'distress' signals on the part of the jockey? Shouldn't this jockey have made a more obvious attempt to pull up his horse...if he was suffering from a physical malady which required immediate hospital care?

Is it difficult to mislead the outriders and the hospital staff into thinking that you don't feel well?

If in fact he was, as he stated, in severe physical distress during the running of the race. Then his choices while on the back of the horse become completely irrelevant.

[thaskalos]

If in fact he was, as he stated, in severe physical distress during the running of the race. Then his choices while on the back of the horse become completely irrelevant.
Nice explanation.

Anything is permissible for a jockey to do while on the back of the horse...as long as he claims that he was suffering from "severe physical distress", once the race is over. :ThmbUp:

[EMD4ME]

Nice explanation.

Anything is permissible for a jockey to do while on the back of the horse...as long as he claims that he was suffering from "severe physical distress", once the race is over. :ThmbUp:

Agreed.

Also, love the trainer's BS excuses. One of which was 'it's a shame that they stopped offering the schooling races for these horses'.

LAD is WWE minor leagues. They can sure use some coaching on how to stiff properly.

[green80]

Agreed.

Also, love the trainer's BS excuses. One of which was 'it's a shame that they stopped offering the schooling races for these horses'.

LAD is WWE minor leagues. They can sure use some coaching on how to stiff properly.

This wasn't a stiff job, these guys are pro's. If they stiff one it won't be near that obvious. Kevin is much much better than that.

[EMD4ME]

This wasn't a stiff job, these guys are pro's. If they stiff one it won't be near that obvious. Kevin is much much better than that.

I agree on the part that they can do a much better job in their stiff attempts.

I don't care why or how but this horse was stiffed from the win spot. Period.

I don't see how you can say otherwise.

[EMD4ME]

Did these stewards even watch the replay/tape?

It was a 4 minute plus video. He was still on the horse at the end of the replay. At no point was an outrider close to him looking to offer help.

Total BS and we're going to make you swallow it BS.

[EMD4ME]

After reading that lovely explanation, I do believe I feel a bout of diarrhea coming on...:faint:

If most of us weren't so desensitized by cheating, we would ALL (not some or most) feel that way.

Alas, many people are apathetic to this crap.

In my hayday, if I saw this happen live and I lost a big ticket to this stiff job, Smith would've looked like the guy who tried to rape Tim Robbins.....

ndeDgR54kIM

[EMD4ME]

I need the geek squad.

I have tried to attach a you tube video many times in the last 24 hours, no luck. Done it many times before, just won't seem to work for me now....

[ReplayRandall]

Kevin Smith celebrated his escape from punishment today by taking down races 5 thru 7 at LaD.....All Smith $1 pick3 paid $105.50......

[v j stauffer]

Then, for the sake of us horseplayers...it's a good thing that you are returning to the announcer's booth, instead of to the steward's box.

Did you watch the gallop-out after the race, Vic....to see if you could spot these apparent 'distress' signals on the part of the jockey? Shouldn't this jockey have made a more obvious attempt to pull up his horse...if he was suffering from a physical malady which required immediate hospital care?

Is it difficult to mislead the outriders and the hospital staff into thinking that you don't feel well?

We both watched tape. We both read testimony. We both shared our opinions.

Yet only one of us made personal statements attacking our career directions, options and choices including the diversity of our resume.

And the PA ball keeps on a rollin! Nice :(

[v j stauffer]

Nice explanation.

Anything is permissible for a jockey to do while on the back of the horse...as long as he claims that he was suffering from "severe physical distress", once the race is over. :ThmbUp:

Think of it this way. A guy suffers a stroke or heart attack while driving a car.

From the second the medical episode begins anything else that takes place must be irrelevant.

C'mon guys you have to understand that.

You are fixated on only the video. Before, during and after the race.

Absent any other mitigating or aggravating factors the tape is indefensible.

A maximum effort to reach the best possible placing was not given.

That's what the tape shows. 1000%.

However, based on eyewitness accounts. Testimony from people involved in the incident and the jockey himself. Mitigating factors have now been introduced into the equation.

What you're saying is after hearing this and looking at the results of the investigation the stewards are supposed to say......

" Wait a minute! Stop with all the crap. Impaired, Shimpaired. We can see the film. He stiffed that horse. Off with his head"

Does that even remotely come close to reasonably seeking the truth and doing due diligence?

I know people lose their minds when they think horses are stiffed. Or races are fixed. Or corruption is rampant.

And yes. Sometimes it does happen.

But in this case, given the totality of the review, how could a steward proclaim he's 100% sure something corrupt happened here?

C'mon guys!!

Would you look at the laws and justice the same way in your real, non racetrack related, lives? I highly doubt it.

[EMD4ME]

Think of it this way. A guy suffers a stroke or heart attack while driving a car.

From the second the medical episode begins anything else that takes place must be irrelevant.

C'mon guys you have to understand that.

You are fixated on only the video. Before, during and after the race.

Absent any other mitigating or aggravating factors the tape is indefensible.

A maximum effort to reach the best possible placing was not given.

That's what the tape shows. 1000%.

However, based on eyewitness accounts. Testimony from people involved in the incident and the jockey himself. Mitigating factors have now been introduced into the equation.

What you're saying is after hearing this and looking at the results of the investigation the stewards are supposed to say......

" Wait a minute! Stop with all the crap. Impaired, Shimpaired. We can see the film. He stiffed that horse. Off with his head"

Does that even remotely come close to reasonably seeking the truth and doing due diligence?

I know people lose their minds when they think horses are stiffed. Or races are fixed. Or corruption is rampant.

And yes. Sometimes it does happen.

But in this case, given the totality of the review, how could a steward proclaim he's 100% sure something corrupt happened here?

C'mon guys!!

Would you look at the laws and justice the same way in your real, non racetrack related, lives? I highly doubt it.

I am not arguing for the sake of arguing, let me state that Vic.

This clown, galloped out just fine. This clown, did not have an outrider near him on the gallop out.

This clown, could've dismounted as soon as he properly galloped the horse out AND NOT CAME back the extra half mile walking, cantoring his horse back.

He didn't. The video evidence does not show his claim to be true.

If it smells like manure, looks like manure and came out of an ass, it's manure.

I don't care if I had a mortgage to pay, kids to feed etc. I would insert my moral values into the decision and ban this punk for the rest of his life.

That's whats wrong with this game, amongst many flaws, no morall compass and no testicular fortitude from people in power to lead the game back to honesty.

[Dahoss9698]

I mentioned to 3 people about a week ago that there was no doubt in my mind this was going to be another instance where stewards tell us one thing, while everyone with a working brain sees and thinks another thing.

Let's ignore the fact that the video does not show the outriders assisting Smith after the race, despite that report from the stewards. I'm not saying they are lying, however at no point in any video after the race do we see this happening. Maybe they watched video of a different race, who knows.

Would someone suffering from heat exhaustion (especially someone who is probably underweight anyway) not only be cleared to ride the following day, but also ride 6 mounts with no incident? I'm not a doctor, but doesn't that seem a bit strange?

I think this incident confirms what many of us already knew. First, most jurisdictions don't care about bettors. And second, in a sport where a lot of people are really bad at their jobs, no one stands out more than the stewards do. They consistently and unapologetically blow the easist of calls and we just have to accept it.

Well, I guess we don't have to accept it, but anyone betting another cent in Louisiana is.

[Jeff P]

Horseplayers might see things differently - if only the video corroborated the following statement given by the Louisiana stewards to Ray Paulick in the article at the following link:
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/jockey-excused-gingerly-handling-filly-louisiana-downs-race/

According to a report from state steward Roy Wood Jr. and association stewards W. Dale Coleman and Charles T. Magee, “Immediately following the horses crossing the finish line the stewards received radio contact from the outriders that Kevin Smith, the rider of #6 Crossbow Huntress who finished second, was in need of immediate medical attention.“ The outrider assisted Kevin Smith back to the jockey area where he was administered medical aide by EMT Cathy Hock.

Simply put - the replay video fails to support the above quote given by the Louisiana stewards to the Paulick Report.

Seriously, watch the video.

No, not the edited/shortened Youtube video embedded in Paulick's article - but the full replay video - all 4 minutes and 12 seconds of it.

In the full replay video:

The winner (#4) crosses the wire at about the 1:24 mark - with the #6 horse (ridden by Kevin Smith) a close second.

The #6 horse (ridden by Kevin Smith) is shown at several points after the finish line in the full replay video.

At no point in the full replay video does the rider (Kevin Smith) attempt to pull the #6 horse up and dismount after the finish.

Instead, the #6 horse (ridden by Kevin Smith) is clearly shown galloping out alongside the winner (#4.)

At no point in the full replay video is an outrider shown assisting the rider (Kevin Smith.)

In fact, at no point in the full replay video is an outrider seen anywhere near the #6 horse (ridden by Kevin Smith) at all.

Incredibly, at about the 4:00 minute mark in the full replay video, just as the #4 horse is about to enter the winner's circle...

The #6 horse appears one final time - AND THE RIDER (Kevin Smith) IS STILL RIDING THE HORSE!

I suggest the stewards watch the full replay video - all 4 minutes and 12 seconds of it - and try again.




-jp

.

[thaskalos]

We both watched tape. We both read testimony. We both shared our opinions.

Yet only one of us made personal statements attacking our career directions, options and choices including the diversity of our resume.

And the PA ball keeps on a rollin! Nice :(

Don't complain, Vic. No one twisted your arm to reveal your real name here. You could have remained anonymous, like me...and then you wouldn't have to deal with any "attacks about the direction of your career"...or any discussions about the "diversity of your resume".

Such is the price of fame, Mr. Stauffer. :)

[Dahoss9698]

That's whats wrong with this game, amongst many flaws, no morall compass and no testicular fortitude from people in power to lead the game back to honesty.
You said it.

I don't think anyone is calling for jockeys or anyone for that matter to be suspended unjustly. I'm just not sure how anyone could actually buy this dude's story. I mean seriously, how hard is it to fake heat exhaustion when it's 95 degrees out?

What this tells me, is not only was he in on it, but it appears as though a lot of people at that track were in on it. Scary when you think about it.

[v j stauffer]

I am not arguing for the sake of arguing, let me state that Vic.

This clown, galloped out just fine. This clown, did not have an outrider near him on the gallop out.

This clown, could've dismounted as soon as he properly galloped the horse out AND NOT CAME back the extra half mile walking, cantoring his horse back.

He didn't. The video evidence does not show his claim to be true.

If it smells like manure, looks like manure and came out of an ass, it's manure.

I don't care if I had a mortgage to pay, kids to feed etc. I would insert my moral values into the decision and ban this punk for the rest of his life.

That's whats wrong with this game, amongst many flaws, no morall compass and no testicular fortitude from people in power to lead the game back to honesty.

Ok. Let me try it this way. Then I gotta get to sleep. Supposed to report to prison at 8:15.

Everybody is now dissecting the film of the race during and after with more scrutiny than the Zapruder footage.

And remember I said if the tape was the only piece of evidence he was a dead duck.

I'll say this again. I 1000% agree the race film shows zero effort to gain a maximum placing. Nothing. And I'll agree to anything you like on the logistics of the gallop out and return.

However, each of you learned gentlemen, please ask yourself the following question.

DO YOU THINK THERE IS "ANY" CHANCE WHAT THE JOCKEY AND OTHERS ARE SAYING ABOUT HIS CONDITION BEING IMPAIRED AND IN DISTRESS IS TRUE?

DO YOU THINK THAT COULD POSSIBLY BE TRUE?

If your answer is yes. There cannot be any sanctions levied against this jockey. Period. End of story.

Oh one other thing. If I was sitting in the office when that trainer went on his meaningless rant about the mental health of his horse. I'd have stopped him after about 3 1/2 words. Talk about a pile of irrelevant rubbish. NBC which stands for nobody cares.

I don't care if he had footage of her sticking up a 7-11 at gunpoint. It has ZERO to do with this case. When a jockey and his agent accept a mount. ThAT denotes implicit understanding the rider agrees to do everything in his power, within the rules, to attempt to gain the maximum possible placing.

I have no idea why that trainer thought any of that drivel was germane to the investigation. :confused:

[v j stauffer]

Don't complain, Vic. No one twisted your arm to reveal your real name here. You could have remained anonymous, like me...and then you wouldn't have to deal with any "attacks about the direction of your career"...or any discussions about the "diversity of your resume".

Such is the price of fame, Mr. Stauffer. :)

It doesn't have anything to do with who I am or what I do. If I was totally anonymous it would still be out of bounds to speak specifically about my direction and choices and nobody else's.

[v j stauffer]

You said it.

I don't think anyone is calling for jockeys or anyone for that matter to be suspended unjustly. I'm just not sure how anyone could actually buy this dude's story. I mean seriously, how hard is it to fake heat exhaustion when it's 95 degrees out?

What this tells me, is not only was he in on it, but it appears as though a lot of people at that track were in on it. Scary when you think about it.

If a lot of people were in on it. How do explain the fact that no suspicious betting patterns were detected either on track or offshore?

If there's a betting coup. Shouldn't there be evidence and fallout of the financial windfall?

[thaskalos]

Ok. Let me try it this way. Then I gotta get to sleep. Supposed to report to prison at 8:15.

Everybody is now dissecting the film of the race during and after with more scrutiny than the Zapruder footage.

And remember I said if the tape was the only piece of evidence he was a dead duck.

I'll say this again. I 1000% agree the race film shows zero effort to gain a maximum placing. Nothing. And I'll agree to anything you like on the logistics of the gallop out and return.

However, each of you learned gentlemen, please ask yourself the following question.

DO YOU THINK THERE IS "ANY" CHANCE WHAT THE JOCKEY AND OTHERS ARE SAYING ABOUT HIS CONDITION BEING IMPAIRED AND IN DISTRESS IS TRUE?

DO YOU THINK THAT COULD POSSIBLY BE TRUE?

If your answer is yes. There cannot be any sanctions levied against this jockey. Period. End of story.

Oh one other thing. If I was sitting in the office when that trainer went on his meaningless rant about the mental health of his horse. I'd have stopped him after about 3 1/2 words. Talk about a pile of irrelevant rubbish. NBC which stands for nobody cares.

I don't care if he had footage of her sticking up a 7-11 at gunpoint. It has ZERO to do with this case. When a jockey and his agent accept a mount. ThAT denotes implicit understanding the rider agrees to do everything in his power, within the rules, to attempt to gain the maximum possible placing.

I have no idea why that trainer thought any of that drivel was germane to the investigation. :confused:

Couldn't EVERY thieving jockey concoct some sort of corroborated excuse claiming that he was "physically impaired", in order to plea innocent for his criminal actions during the running of the race? If that's all it takes...then, WHAT? Only the STUPID criminals get caught in this game?

[thaskalos]

If a lot of people were in on it. How do explain the fact that no suspicious betting patterns were detected either on track or offshore?

If there's a betting coup. Shouldn't there be evidence and fallout of the financial windfall?
Yeah. Louisiana is very adept at catching up with suspicious betting patterns.

I suggest you read the book EXACTA EXPOSE, by former Louisiana mutuel pool investigator Douglas J. Railey...for a behind-the-scenes look of Louisiana's betting pattern investigative methods. :rolleyes:

[v j stauffer]

Couldn't EVERY thieving jockey concoct some sort of corroborated excuse claiming that he was "physically impaired", in order to plea innocent for his criminal actions during the running of the race? If that's all it takes...then, WHAT? only the STUPID criminals get caught in this game?

Your question has absolutely nothing to do with my question.

ZERO.

It's a very simple question.

DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT THINK THERE IS A CHANCE HE'S TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT BEING PHYSICALLY IMPAIRED AND IN DISTRESS?

Why can't you simply answer the ****ing question?

[Dahoss9698]

If a lot of people were in on it. How do explain the fact that no suspicious betting patterns were detected either on track or offshore?

If there's a betting coup. Shouldn't there be evidence and fallout of the financial windfall?
I didn't say there was a betting coup. Please don't put words into my mouth. It's very unbecoming of a ambassador of the sport.

What I'm suggesting is the guy is full of crap and a lot of people covered for him.

Don't you find it odd that he was able to make such a rapid recovery to ride 6 races the following day?

[v j stauffer]

I didn't say there was a betting coup. Please don't put words into my mouth. It's very unbecoming of a ambassador of the sport.

What I'm suggesting is the guy is full of crap and a lot of people covered for him.

Don't you find it odd that he was able to make such a rapid recovery to ride 6 races the following day?

You said you thought a lot of people could have been in on it. Coup or no coup. If there were several in on it. It had to be for some sort of financial gain.

As for his recovery. In Louisiana summertime heat. With what these kids do to their bodies. Nothing surprises me anymore.

[thaskalos]

Your question has absolutely nothing to do with my question.

ZERO.

Your question doesn't DESERVE a reply.

Anyone who watches that video, which covers the more than 4 minutes immediately AFTER the finish of the race...knows PRECISELY what the answer to that question of yours rightly is.

You don't casually trot around with the horse for an additional 4+ minutes after the finish of the race...when you are in need of "immediate medical care". Lame excuses like these work in the world of horse racing...and no-where else.

[v j stauffer]

Your question doesn't DESERVE a reply.

Anyone who watches that video, which covers the more than 4 minutes immediately AFTER the finish of the race...knows PRECISELY what the answer to that question of yours rightly is.

You don't casually trot around with the horse for an additional 4+ minutes after the finish of the race...when you are in need of "immediate medical care". Lame excuses like these work in the world of horse racing...and no-where else.

Doesn't deserve a reply? What? And it's not MY question. It is A question.

A question that does in fact have two answers. Either YES or NO.

You're a joke. You don't want to have a discussion. You just want to spew drivel.

I suppose I had forgotten how useless it is trying to debate things with you. We'll you've reminded me. Thanks. Now I don't have to waste anymore time on you. BYE BYE. Good riddance!

[Dahoss9698]

Your question has absolutely nothing to do with my question.

ZERO.
No, it has everything to do with your question.

I'll play along. In my opinion there is a 1% chance his story is true. So to answer your question, yes.

To Thaskalos's point, short of Smith admitting he stiffed the horse, how could he ever be convicted based on what you are saying? Every single rider has an easy out by saying they didn't feel well during the race.

This just looks REALLY bad. His story isn't believable. The video doesn't back it up and him riding the next day confirms it. The doctors basically diagnosed him with a case of the shi.ts.

I appreciate your opinions here, but as someone who is a part of the game, don't you see this isn't the case to try and play devil's advocate just for the sake of it?

[Dahoss9698]

You said you thought a lot of people could have been in on it. Coup or no coup. If there were several in on it. It had to be for some sort of financial gain.

As for his recovery. In Louisiana summertime heat. With what these kids do to their bodies. Nothing surprises me anymore.
I'm not suggesting there was financial gain, but hypothetically speaking, 5 or 6 people picking up an extra grand or two probably wouldn't raise too many flags, would it?

If you could do that a few times a month you'd eek out a pretty nice living I suppose.

And the fact it was so hot means he's less likely to make such a rapid recovery, no?

[v j stauffer]

No, it has everything to do with your question.

I'll play along. In my opinion there is a 1% chance his story is true. So to answer your question, yes.

To Thaskalos's point, short of Smith admitting he stiffed the horse, how could he ever be convicted based on what you are saying? Every single rider has an easy out by saying they didn't feel well during the race.

This just looks REALLY bad. His story isn't believable. The video doesn't back it up and him riding the next day confirms it. The doctors basically diagnosed him with a case of the shi.ts.

I appreciate your opinions here, but as someone who is a part of the game, don't you see this isn't the case to try and play devil's advocate just for the sake of it?

Thank you for answering the question. Stewards decide things everyday by a preponderance of the evidence. What you're saying is in your opinion his excuse doesn't seem credible to you and your choice would be to sanction him. I'm fine with that. I disagree but that's how the system works.

[Dahoss9698]

Thank you for answering the question. Stewards decide things everyday by a preponderance of the evidence. What you're saying is in your opinion his excuse doesn't seem credible to you and your choice would be to sanction him. I'm fine with that. I disagree but that's how the system works.
I wish you wouldn't have avoided my question. Short of him just admitting it, based on what you've been saying, how could he ever be convicted?

[thaskalos]

Doesn't deserve a reply? What? And it's not MY question. It is A question.

A question that does in fact have two answers. Either YES or NO.

You're a joke. You don't want to have a discussion. You just want to spew drivel.

I suppose I had forgotten how useless it is trying to debate things with you. We'll you've reminded me. Thanks. Now I don't have to waste anymore time on you. BYE BYE. Good riddance!

Oh, my God...how deeply your words have wounded me. And to think that I come to this board on the mere hope that I might have a scant chance to converse with a highly knowledgeable "insider" such as yourself. Haven't you noticed how eager I have been to enter into conversations with you during my tenure here?

[thaskalos]

I wish you wouldn't have avoided my question. Short of him just admitting it, based on what you've been saying, how could he ever be convicted?

As long as the stewards function under the mentality expressed by Vic...ANYTHING goes.

Blatantly stiff the horse...casually trot around the track aboard the animal for an additional 5 minutes after the race...and then tell the stewards that you became "light-headed" during the stretch run.

After all...where is the injustice that you have committed? The "important customers" are inside the joint playing the slots.

[EMD4ME]

Its a brethren and its disgusting.

Ban him for life & then let him prove his innocence.

This is not a courthouse. Its a racetrack.

[v j stauffer]

Oh, my God...how deeply your words have wounded me. And to think that I come to this board on the mere hope that I might have a scant chance to converse with a highly knowledgeable "insider" such as yourself. Haven't you noticed how eager I have been to enter into conversations with you during my tenure here?

It's not that I dislike you or don't. I know you wouldn't care anyway and shouldn't. It just that I forgot how frustrating it is communicating with you.

Totally not worth it. Your contributions are just and important and carry the same weight as mine or anybody else's.

I just don't enjoy debating anything with you. No fun.

[thaskalos]

Its a brethren and its disgusting.

Ban him for life & then let him prove his innocence.

This is not a courthouse. Its a racetrack.

Ban him for LIFE? Are you KIDDING? And run the risk of having him get depressed, and stricken by some other serious unforeseen ILLNESS. Haven't you noticed how fragile his immune system already is?

[thaskalos]

It's not that I dislike you or don't. I know you wouldn't care anyway and shouldn't. It just that I forgot how frustrating it is communicating with you.

Totally not worth it. Your contributions are just and important and carry the same weight as mine or anybody else's.

I just don't enjoy debating anything with you. No fun.

I assure you that the feeling is mutual.

[Robert Fischer]

i thought we all agreed this was an obvious stiff job, where the jock fell asleep and almost let a maiden win that wasn't supposed to?


You guys are a trip. Enjoyed reading the last few pages. You all played your parts very well. Bravo.

[kevb]

Why do the stewards have to be doctors, psychoanalysts, and forensic scientists. Why can't the rule at all race tracks be that if you don't make a effort to secure a better placing, then a fine and suspension is automatic. The amount and duration to be determined by the stewards. If you say that you saw the ghost of your departed grandfather at the top of the stretch and it scared you so bad you couldn't see straight, then by all means wrap up and ride gingerly, but the fine and suspension are automatic.

[v j stauffer]

Why do the stewards have to be doctors, psychoanalysts, and forensic scientists. Why can't the rule at all race tracks be that if you don't make a effort to secure a better placing, then a fine and suspension is automatic. The amount and duration to be determined by the stewards. If you say that you saw the ghost of your departed grandfather at the top of the stretch and it scared you so bad you couldn't see straight, then by all means wrap up and ride gingerly, but the fine and suspension are automatic.

Because KB there are sometimes legitimate reasons why the jockey wasn't able to seek the better placing.

Not so much anymore. But back in the day it wasn't uncommon for a rider sitting behind horses to have a rock hurled back striking him right in the schnazz. Or a dislodged shoe to spin like Mr. Moto's hat and clank off their forehead. When I worked for Tyler in 2009 his mount, Night Justice, threw his head back and smashed Tyler's face so badly he missed the better part of two years. What if as he was coming to in post-op I told him he'd gotten 90 days and a $10,000 fine for failure to make his best effort to obtain a maximum placing?

For any of us that either play or officiate sports we've all had this happen. Wayward pass in basket ball. Foul tip straight back into the mask. Deflected slap shot from the point.

If something similar happens in a race. Are you actually ok with saying sorry about your luck pal. We're fining and suspending you. It's automatic?

[Dahoss9698]

Vic, I want to feel like you're not just totally dodging my very fair question but you keep...well....avoiding it.

I certainly understand why you're avoiding it, but i don't think any of us are interested in seeing this from the stewards perspective. Why should we? Do they look at it from our perspective?

You're the one that decided to defend the indefensible. So let's have it. Explain how under your logic (and the stewards) Smith could ever be convicted, short of him admitting it.

[Inner Dirt]

When I was a teenager I worked as a groom for Charlie Whittingham at San Luis Rey Down near Del Mar.

His brother Joe ran the operation. We would see Charlie maybe twice a month.

It's where he'd keep his lay ups and two year olds who just came in from the farm.

They'd get shipped to Charlie when it was time to start to tighten the screws and get ready to run.

One year I was rubbing a lovely filly named Buck's Belle. We became good friends and I was sad when she went to CW at Santa Anita.

She was ready to run later that year and made her first start at Del Mar.

Boy was I charged up. So much so I asked for and was given permission to come to the paddock for her race.

I was standing right next to Charlie when Shoemaker walked up. Here is what he said.

" This is a nice filly" I think she'll be a lot better when she goes long" Make sure she get's a lot of dirt in her face down the backside" Swing her out at the top of the stretch and see what you can get" Be sure she gallops out strong"

The race went EXACTLY as planned. She finished a pretty good looking 4th.

What's you guys take on that.

I honestly don't have an opinion.

Want to know what you think?

When I was a teenager I would drive through Bonsall on the way to Del Mar from Hemet. The 70's don't seem like 40 years ago, but they are. As for the Bald Eagle's instructions, I have no issue with those, a bettor should not expect a horse to have all the screws tightened, perfectly placed, with an all out effort to win first out. Pretty sure even the best trainers don't always know exactly what they have until a horse is in a live race with a full field.

[kevb]

Because KB there are sometimes legitimate reasons why the jockey wasn't able to seek the better placing.

Not so much anymore. But back in the day it wasn't uncommon for a rider sitting behind horses to have a rock hurled back striking him right in the schnazz. Or a dislodged shoe to spin like Mr. Moto's hat and clank off their forehead. When I worked for Tyler in 2009 his mount, Night Justice, threw his head back and smashed Tyler's face so badly he missed the better part of two years. What if as he was coming to in post-op I told him he'd gotten 90 days and a $10,000 fine for failure to make his best effort to obtain a maximum placing?

For any of us that either play or officiate sports we've all had this happen. Wayward pass in basket ball. Foul tip straight back into the mask. Deflected slap shot from the point.

If something similar happens in a race. Are you actually ok with saying sorry about your luck pal. We're fining and suspending you. It's automatic?

Not the greatest analogy, but... A batter swings at a pitch it bounces off the plate and then hits him in the jaw and breaks his jaw. While he is writhing in pain on the ground, he is tagged out. Too bad, so sad, but a rule is a rule. He is out. Maybe for the one in a million mounts where something like you describe happens, the unfortunate application of the rule is OK if it cleans up the process.

The stewards are frequently put in an almost impossible situation if they have to determine why a jockey didn't persevere. How can you really determine with certainty that the jock wasn't struck with heat exhaustion, or total blindness for ten seconds, or whatever he might say. Make the rules and the application of the rules simple. Everyone knows the rules and agrees on the rules when they agree to play the game.

Did you see the replay of this Australian race where the Jockey was fined by the stewards day after the race. He didn't bother pleading heat exhaustion or temporary paralysis, because I am guessing it wouldn't have changed the ruling.

Stewards ruling: "Like My Brother- S. Lisnyy was fined $200 (AR 137 (b)) for failing to ride the gelding out to the end of the race when still in contention for fourth place."

http://bit.ly/2av5Rtc

[v j stauffer]

Vic, I want to feel like you're not just totally dodging my very fair question but you keep...well....avoiding it.

I certainly understand why you're avoiding it, but i don't think any of us are interested in seeing this from the stewards perspective. Why should we? Do they look at it from our perspective?

You're the one that decided to defend the indefensible. So let's have it. Explain how under your logic (and the stewards) Smith could ever be convicted, short of him admitting it.

I absolutely look at things from a bettors perspective. I was a bettor before I was a steward. I am again now a bettor since resigning as a steward. When I was in the stand I strongly believed my first priority was to protect and consider the best interests of the people who paid my salary. The betting public. As a child of both worlds. I strongly feel it helped me understand what the players have to deal with everyday. My back round as a player was factored into every decision I made.

He could be found guilty if his explanation of being in physical distress seemed to be unfounded. If there was nobody else to corroborate his story. If he seemed, during his testimony, to come across as a person not worthy of the benefit of the doubt. Frankly put, if a steward, a judge, because that's what stewards are at the end of the day. Judges. Said to his or her self. This kid is lying. His behavior during, after and in the subsequent days was such to make me believe he thought he had gotten away with his crime.

Believe me. Stewarding is an in-exact science. Often were not totally sure decisions are correct. But you watch the film. Which I've conceded is damming. You listen to everybody involved. Especially those beyond reproach. Like EMT's and hospital staff. You discuss it amongst yourselves. You think about it constantly. And I mean wear it for days. In the shower, at dinner, driving to work. And finally you put forth your decision.

But again please don't forget the gravity of this particular type of decision. IMO carries more weight and responsibility than anything a steward ever rules on.

Did the young man or did he not STIFF a horse.

If I'm not 100% sure he did. With no questions in my mind. I cannot in good conscious attach a tag to him that could hinder his ability to prosper for the rest of his career.

Once you are officially called a cheat there's never a chance of going back.

V J Singh was once accused of cheating by altering his correct score card for a tournament. Whenever I see him play golf it's the first thing I think.

Horse racing has cheaters. Probably more today than at any point in it's history. I'm not suggesting we ignore the problem. Look for reasons to let them get away with it.

But when you're a steward the very foundation of performing your duties correctly is to do so without bias, agenda or rushing to justice.

There is a strict protocol on the due process and due diligence for every licensee accused of a rule violation.

Do I think this young man is guilty of what so many of you are saying he did? It's possible. But as a reasonable man with 40 years hands on experience in the trenches. I think it's more likely/plausible he didn't do it.

We judge. We agonize. We make a decision in good faith. We hope we got it right. We move on to the next one.

I hope that answers your question.

[castaway01]

I think we all knew deep down this was going to get brushed under the rug with some ridiculous excuse, especially considering where it took place. We're at the point where you can have a 4-minute video of a guy robbing a bank, but if he tells you "It's okay, I handed the money back after the video ended" then you have to let him go because there's no conclusive proof he robbed the bank.

[rastajenk]

You guys would have made great Romans back in the day:


" :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: "

[kevb]

Here is the link of the Aus race. Race 6

http://m.racingnsw.com.au/FreeFields/Results.aspx?Key=2016Jul16,NSW,Tuncurry

[Dahoss9698]

I hope that answers your question.
It doesn't but I appreciate the effort.

We both know the racetrack and the people that work at it are a close knit family. We protect our "family". That's why the corroborating stories here hold no water with me.

At the end of the day I realize you have to keep pumping out p.c. answers. But I'm not sure you're being 100% genuine here. I understand your perspective but in my gut I feel like you know this is a travesty of justice and I'm not sure why you keep defending it.

You keep talking about the impact it could have on Smith. What about the impact his actions had on the bettors? I imagine his performance cost a lot of people a good amount of money.

You and the stewards are believing his story. You can't fault us for not because a guy who is suffering heat exhaustion wouldn't stay on the horse for 4 minutes after. Stop spitting in our face and telling us it's actually rain

[v j stauffer]

It doesn't but I appreciate the effort.

We both know the racetrack and the people that work at it are a close knit family. We protect our "family". That's why the corroborating stories here hold no water with me.

At the end of the day I realize you have to keep pumping out p.c. answers. But I'm not sure you're being 100% genuine here. I understand your perspective but in my gut I feel like you know this is a travesty of justice and I'm not sure why you keep defending it.

You keep talking about the impact it could have on Smith. What about the impact his actions had on the bettors? I imagine his performance cost a lot of people a good amount of money.

You and the stewards are believing his story. You can't fault us for not because a guy who is suffering heat exhaustion wouldn't stay on the horse for 4 minutes after. Stop spitting in our face and telling us it's actually rain

Well it's up to you to accept my answers as genuine or not.

I am telling the truth as I see it both professionally and from my heart.

If you choose to reject that. Call me a liar. So be it.

You asked me a question. I answered it truthfully and you come back by saying my answer is bullshit.

Whatever. You've never had an ounce of respect me for.

Why start now?

Off to prison.

All PA'ers have a great day.

V J S

[Dahoss9698]

Stop playing the victim everytime someone disagrees with you.

What you don't get is no one cares how you view it professionally. No one here has to have been a steward to watch that video and the subsequent story that came with it to realize what a crock it is.

Thats about it in a nutshell. Why you insist on playing devils advocate is beyond me. Because if you were genuinely viewing this as a horseplayer, you'd be outraged. That's what I'm saying.

I'm able to put my total lack of respect for you aside to try and have a discussion but since you insist on playing message board steward, I've got to bow out.

[Tom]

Thank you for answering the question. Stewards decide things everyday by a preponderance of the evidence. What you're saying is in your opinion his excuse doesn't seem credible to you and your choice would be to sanction him. I'm fine with that. I disagree but that's how the system works.

You know the old saying when the track announces a claim of foul, "....while the stewards will examine their tickets."

Racing, as a whole, has no clue who the customer is.
Theses stewards lied, this clown cheated.
All four of them should be banned.

[Ruffian1]

In a court of law, a judge has attorneys from both sides that they will have to deal with if an appeal is requested.

In this case, only one side would have an appeal process.

So ruling one way creates questions, scrutiny, possible job security, law suits, etc. and ruling another way and it all goes away. That's just sad, but it is very true and customers deal with that everyday.

The fact that there is no outrider anywhere in view for the entire 4 plus minutes, yet they say they were told immediately after they crossed the finish line that the outrider was alerted and reported it to the Stewards, makes no sense. How could the outrider have been alerted without going to the horse while pulling up? Or at very least, been hollered towards by the ill jock galloping out and immediately move to help the jock in distress ?


The two biggest problems with this IMO are that the explanation makes no sense when viewing the tape and no film was provided to help the customer understand.

Until at least some effort is made to show the customer what is needed to make them feel as though the Stewards have their backs, nobody can expect those customers to feel anything but dismissed as irrelevant.

As a former track guy, I want to say I am sorry to the fans. It's stuff like this , and not as much the decision because maybe lots of things happened that we could not see , but the presentation by the Stewards to the customers that showed no evidence that maybe a head on might have shown or something that might have made the customer feel anything but what they feel, which is cheated and not considered in this process.

I hate this stuff and it never stops happening. Whether the Stewards really do care about the customers or don't care about them is unknown in this case. But , if presentation counts for anything, if indeed they really care, they need to work on there skills so as to better show it.

As for the trainers comments, I have heard of some dumb things trainers have said to riders in the paddock prior to the race but this quote is incredible.
“I explained (to Smith) that the filly had been in a lot of trouble and had been entered three times,” Dodwell said. “The most important thing, I told him, was not to get anybody hurt. I said I would be careful about running my hands up her neck, to keep her in the bridle and try not to get her in anybody's way.”

Dodwell said she told Smith the filly had never been hit with the whip, although a review of her June 19 race showed she was struck twice left-handed on three different occasions in the stretch.

In other words, my horse is crazy and you can't trust her, don't let her head loose because she might do anything and don't get run over.

Other things we don't know are, did the rider and trainer talk prior to the paddock discussion?

Did the rider ever get on this horse before that race?

Does this trainer have any reputation good or bad for the jockey to formulate any opinion? If she has a habit of running goofy horses, riders will know this in the room. It's self preservation and goes on all the time at 2nd tier tracks that have trainers like that . And that's a good thing.


Her words standing alone would have had most riders not letting her run. I mean, if you are a rider and somebody says that to you, what would you think?


Talk about not instilling confidence in your horse to the rider. It's a wonder he didn't take off before they loaded with those instructions.

[cj]

My opinion is anybody saying this was a fair decision by the stewards is either an idiot or pretending to be one just to troll.

I'd say nobody should bet that product again, but hardly anybody does anyway.

[Robert Fischer]

either an idiot or pretending to be one just to troll.


I really want to give vic credit for trolling dahoss back pretty hard in these recent days

honestly don't care enough to read into it that deeply to decide if he's sincere

either way, thread is awful, and racing has yet another black eye