Songbird Alabama

[MonmouthParkJoe]

After that race, in reality who is going to show up? Cotillion at Philly Park is double the purse I believe at $1 million and is a couple weeks later. Hard enough to get entries for this past race, I can only imagine who shows up now. Gives other fillies a chance to be graded stakes placed or even win if she loses, but with another big race for twice the amount and avoiding this monster, should be interesting. Maybe the ML will be closer to 1/9 :)

[biggestal99]

After that race, in reality who is going to show up? Cotillion at Philly Park is double the purse I believe at $1 million and is a couple weeks later. Hard enough to get entries for this past race, I can only imagine who shows up now. Gives other fillies a chance to be graded stakes placed or even win if she loses, but with another big race for twice the amount and avoiding this monster, should be interesting. Maybe the ML will be closer to 1/9 :)

Once they saw the destruction of a really good G1 horse, The Alabama might be a walkover.

Allan

[spiketoo]

I also had Bird Song in the 3rd. :D

[Fager Fan]

After that race, in reality who is going to show up? Cotillion at Philly Park is double the purse I believe at $1 million and is a couple weeks later. Hard enough to get entries for this past race, I can only imagine who shows up now. Gives other fillies a chance to be graded stakes placed or even win if she loses, but with another big race for twice the amount and avoiding this monster, should be interesting. Maybe the ML will be closer to 1/9 :)

The Cotillion is a month after the Alabama and is the race they said Songbird's pointed to after.

[SG4]

The Cotillion is a month after the Alabama and is the race they said Songbird's pointed to after.

Sounds like the connections of Cathryn Sophia are going to be pointing to the Cotillion & firing on all cylinders for that one by prepping in a race at Parx ahead of time too. If Off the Tracks & Lewis Bay show up in the Alabama it looks like Songbird will get a chance to vanquish each of the top east coast horses at some point this summer.

Haven't seen it mentioned here yet, but Rachel Valentina retired today as well so that's one less big name to encounter.

[Redboard]

Cathryn Sophia would be better off running in the PA Derby, rather than face this filly in the Cotillion. She is the real deal.

[horses4courses]

Exceptional fillies - both of them.
We're lucky to have them around. :ThmbUp:

[thespaah]

You guys are forgetting one important ingredient.
A picture in the winner's circle is every owner's and horsemen's dream come true. if you win at The Spa that is a sign that you have "arrived"...
With that said, many horses, especially ion graded stakes are pointed to the Saratoga meet. For this reason, many top of the heap in their respective division horses have gone down to defeat.
I would expect there will be connections that may take a shot in the Alabama
One other thing. The Alabama is a 10 F event. Farther than many fillies have ever been or will be in the remainder of their respective racing careers.
If I had a filly that was of pretty good stock and she had distance in her pedigree, I would train her up to such a race. Why not?

[EMD4ME]

Here's a revolutionary thought..... :rolleyes:

Enter 2 horses. 1 who will show good speed (rabbit) and your stalker/closer.

If 3 barns did so, we'd have 6 entries right there. Plus Songbird plus 3-5 other normal average contenders and VIOLA.

10-12 horse field. 10F, chaos could happen. Flow could happen, trips might ensue, chalk can lose.

OR she overcomes it all and FURTHER expands her Legacy. Either way I'm happy.

Why wouldn't a barn take a chance at G1 Black Type.

Sick of these 6 horse fields in these races. Go for it, darn it!

All it takes is 1 bump at the gate (More likely to happen and have larger damage if there are 12 in the gate vs 5), 1 box in, 1 suicide send etc......

[v j stauffer]

Cathryn Sophia would be better off running in the PA Derby, rather than face this filly in the Cotillion. She is the real deal.

You might be right. The Derby could be easier.

While Carina Mia is a fabulous filly. Cathryn Sophia is in a another league even from her.

Sophia's numbers on Thorograph have been consistently faster than Songbird's from the very beginning.

I don't know who would win but I'd walk barefoot over broken glass to see it.

Can't remember a time we've had so many truly GREAT horses in training at the same time.

California Chrome
Dortmund
Frosted
Songbird
Cathryn Sophia
Nyquist
Exaggerator
Tepin
Beholder

Let's get em all to the GREAT RACE PLACE Nov 4 & 5 and let it wash over us.

:jump:

[dilanesp]

You guys are forgetting one important ingredient.
A picture in the winner's circle is every owner's and horsemen's dream come true. if you win at The Spa that is a sign that you have "arrived"...
With that said, many horses, especially ion graded stakes are pointed to the Saratoga meet. For this reason, many top of the heap in their respective division horses have gone down to defeat.
I would expect there will be connections that may take a shot in the Alabama
One other thing. The Alabama is a 10 F event. Farther than many fillies have ever been or will be in the remainder of their respective racing careers.
If I had a filly that was of pretty good stock and she had distance in her pedigree, I would train her up to such a race. Why not?

I would buy this argument about why people run no chance entries in the Ky Derby.

But Saratoga? The vast, vast majority of people in this gane do not give two hoots about Saratoga as a "special" place. That is a totally parochial, New York view.

[thespaah]

I would buy this argument about why people run no chance entries in the Ky Derby.

But Saratoga? The vast, vast majority of people in this gane do not give two hoots about Saratoga as a "special" place. That is a totally parochial, New York view.
I may be biased, but here is the cold hard reality...Sartaoga is THE preeminent horse racing meeting in North America.
Period. Done. End of story.
And please...don't try telling me that getting a picture taken in the winner's circle at Saratoga is viewed as insignificant or ho hum.
Because it just ain't true.

[v j stauffer]

I may be biased, but here is the cold hard reality...Sartaoga is THE preeminent horse racing meeting in North America.
Period. Done. End of story.
And please...don't try telling me that getting a picture taken in the winner's circle at Saratoga is viewed as insignificant or ho hum.
Because it just ain't true.

I'm a 57 year old west coast guy. I've never been to Saratoga and I agree with thespaah.

[dilanesp]

I may be biased, but here is the cold hard reality...Sartaoga is THE preeminent horse racing meeting in North America.
Period. Done. End of story.
And please...don't try telling me that getting a picture taken in the winner's circle at Saratoga is viewed as insignificant or ho hum.
Because it just ain't true.

One way to determine whether this is true is to look at average field sizes of big open stakes at Saratoga. Are they any larger than those at Del Mar, for instance? I've seen plenty of 5 horse (and even a few 4 and 3 horse) fields in the major Saratoga stakes over the years.

[classhandicapper]

I'm a 57 year old west coast guy. I've never been to Saratoga

I'm a 57 year old east coast guy and made sure I saw Delmar (Lava Man's Pacific Classic). What are you waiting for? You have to see Saratoga!

[Saratoga_Mike]

I would buy this argument about why people run no chance entries in the Ky Derby.

But Saratoga? The vast, vast majority of people in this gane do not give two hoots about Saratoga as a "special" place. That is a totally parochial, New York view.

Yes, owners from all over the country yearn to win at Los Alamitos. :rolleyes:

[biggestal99]

I'm a 57 year old west coast guy. I've never been to Saratoga and I agree with thespaah.

Time to break down and give the SPA a whirl. its a great track.

Allan

[biggestal99]

But Saratoga? The vast, vast majority of people in this gane do not give two hoots about Saratoga as a "special" place. That is a totally parochial, New York view.

LOL. why do you think American Pharoah ran in the Travers last year against the trainers advice?

He wanted to win it so much there, he could taste it.

Allan

[bobphilo]

One way to determine whether this is true is to look at average field sizes of big open stakes at Saratoga. Are they any larger than those at Del Mar, for instance? I've seen plenty of 5 horse (and even a few 4 and 3 horse) fields in the major Saratoga stakes over the years.

In what universe is field size in major stakes indicative of meet quality? Just because a race has such a weak favorite that it invites a lot of inferior horses to clutter up the field is no indication of quality. Great horses make great meets and great horses scare away sub par horses resulting in smaller more select fields. Give me a race with a small but select field, making a fair result more likely, any day.

[SuperPickle]

One way to determine whether this is true is to look at average field sizes of big open stakes at Saratoga. Are they any larger than those at Del Mar, for instance? I've seen plenty of 5 horse (and even a few 4 and 3 horse) fields in the major Saratoga stakes over the years.

Dilanesp, I REALLY wish you were right because I think winning at these meets is overrated and I think the stockpiling of horse flesh for the meets hurts racing but you're not right. Lots of outfits put lots of added value at winning at both Saratoga and Del Mar.

There's a lot of evidence that supports this (wait till the last 2-3 weeks of Saratoga when you Ken Ramsey dropping everything to win the owners title) but you really don't need to look further than yesterday.

Barclay Tagg won the 5th race by 5+ lengths with a maiden for Fipke he'd been sitting on since a second place finish in December at Gulstream. The horse got pounded down to 2-1 off works that were called A by the clockers. In hindsight he could have ran this horse weeks ago maybe eve a month ago in a variety of spots downstate and won. Fipke loves Saratoga so they waited.

Then over at Del Mar Jeff Mullins had a horse jog in the last race off a nine month layoff. The race was a maiden $20K all be it a one with a larger field with more special weight droppers than usual. In hindsight this horse would have won any maiden $20K run at Santa Anita or Los Al the last 4-6 weeks and they run one almost everyday in SoCal. But Mullins is a big Del Mar guy so he waited.

Given the extent people go to win ordinary races on the undercard can you imagine what people do to try and win graded stakes?

[Fager Fan]

I've never heard of anyone wanting to win a race just because it's run at Saratoga. There may be a few, but instead I think they want to win a graded stakes, and they happen to be at Saratoga during a specific period. The only time I've heard of winning a race at the Spa as being a positive is when talking of a 2yo for the general reason that winning a MSW there probably meant you beat some decent horses.

Ramsey doesn't count. He gets off on winning owner titles, and think he's the only owner who cares at all about that.

[Fager Fan]

Dilanesp, I REALLY wish you were right because I think winning at these meets is overrated and I think the stockpiling of horse flesh for the meets hurts racing but you're not right. Lots of outfits put lots of added value at winning at both Saratoga and Del Mar.

There's a lot of evidence that supports this (wait till the last 2-3 weeks of Saratoga when you Ken Ramsey dropping everything to win the owners title) but you really don't need to look further than yesterday.

Barclay Tagg won the 5th race by 5+ lengths with a maiden for Fipke he'd been sitting on since a second place finish in December at Gulstream. The horse got pounded down to 2-1 off works that were called A by the clockers. In hindsight he could have ran this horse weeks ago maybe eve a month ago in a variety of spots downstate and won. Fipke loves Saratoga so they waited.

Then over at Del Mar Jeff Mullins had a horse jog in the last race off a nine month layoff. The race was a maiden $20K all be it a one with a larger field with more special weight droppers than usual. In hindsight this horse would have won any maiden $20K run at Santa Anita or Los Al the last 4-6 weeks and they run one almost everyday in SoCal. But Mullins is a big Del Mar guy so he waited.

Given the extent people go to win ordinary races on the undercard can you imagine what people do to try and win graded stakes?

I bet there was another reason than winning at the Spa to spend $28k or so in training costs just to have him in a holding pattern for 7 months.

[v j stauffer]

I've never heard of anyone wanting to win a race just because it's run at Saratoga. There may be a few, but instead I think they want to win a graded stakes, and they happen to be at Saratoga during a specific period. The only time I've heard of winning a race at the Spa as being a positive is when talking of a 2yo for the general reason that winning a MSW there probably meant you beat some decent horses.

Ramsey doesn't count. He gets off on winning owner titles, and think he's the only owner who cares at all about that.

I can't speak to that at Saratoga.

But I can say over my career I've met over a thousand owners that wanted to win just because it was Del Mar.

Hundreds of which would never even have thought about buying into a horse if winning at the beach wasn't on their horseracing bucket list.

[the little guy]

I can't speak for Del Mar, though I imagine it's much the same, but as far as Saratoga, the notion that winning here isn't considered anything special is laughably incorrect. It's a big deal, even to the biggest owners. It's really as simple as that.

It's OK, you know, for there to be some things about racing that people like. Everything doesn't have to suck all the time.

[dilanesp]

Yes, owners from all over the country yearn to win at Los Alamitos. :rolleyes:

Never said that. Los Al sucks.

But this Saratoga "mystique" doesn't exist as compared to major races on other circuits. For instance, there's likely to be four top horses entered in the Pacific Classic. I don't think any of their connections even considered the Whitney.

(In contrast, as I said earlier, the Kentucky Derby DOES have that mystique. People enter even no chance horses because they want to be there.)

[dilanesp]

In what universe is field size in major stakes indicative of meet quality? Just because a race has such a weak favorite that it invites a lot of inferior horses to clutter up the field is no indication of quality. Great horses make great meets and great horses scare away sub par horses resulting in smaller more select fields. Give me a race with a small but select field, making a fair result more likely, any day.

Read the start of the thread. The whole argument here is whether there are going to be no chance entrants that show up against Songbird at Saratoga.

[the little guy]

Never said that. Los Al sucks.

But this Saratoga "mystique" doesn't exist as compared to major races on other circuits. For instance, there's likely to be four top horses entered in the Pacific Classic. I don't think any of their connections even considered the Whitney.

(In contrast, as I said earlier, the Kentucky Derby DOES have that mystique. People enter even no chance horses because they want to be there.)

This has to be an act.

[classhandicapper]

Never said that. Los Al sucks.

But this Saratoga "mystique" doesn't exist as compared to major races on other circuits. For instance, there's likely to be four top horses entered in the Pacific Classic. I don't think any of their connections even considered the Whitney.

(In contrast, as I said earlier, the Kentucky Derby DOES have that mystique. People enter even no chance horses because they want to be there.)

This is how I feel about Saratoga. Just substitute Saratoga for Iowa.

John Kinsella: Is this heaven?
Ray Kinsella: It's Iowa.
John Kinsella: Iowa? I could have sworn this was heaven.
[starts to walk away]
Ray Kinsella: Is there a heaven?
John Kinsella: Oh yeah. It's the place where dreams come true.
Ray Kinsella: Maybe this is heaven.

[SuperPickle]

I bet there was another reason than winning at the Spa to spend $28k or so in training costs just to have him in a holding pattern for 7 months.

My point was that since both of them jogged they probably could have raced a month ago in a softer spot at Belmont or SA and jogged. Clearly the connections were waiting for their races versus racing them when they were ready.

[Fager Fan]

I can't speak for Del Mar, though I imagine it's much the same, but as far as Saratoga, the notion that winning here isn't considered anything special is laughably incorrect. It's a big deal, even to the biggest owners. It's really as simple as that.

It's OK, you know, for there to be some things about racing that people like. Everything doesn't have to suck all the time.

I know a number of owners who have raced there or have the opportunity to do so, and I've never heard it said. Nor can I remember reading in 20+ years any owner quoted as wanting to win a race just because it's Saratoga. Maybe it's all just eluded me.

[Fager Fan]

My point was that since both of them jogged they probably could have raced a month ago in a softer spot at Belmont or SA and jogged. Clearly the connections were waiting for their races versus racing them when they were ready.

I got your point but think it's not likely true for the reason above. You don't just sit on a horse when it's ready to run. There's nothing wrong with running at Belmont then Saratoga. It'd probably be better than coming into the Spa off such a long layoff/

[the little guy]

I know a number of owners who have raced there or have the opportunity to do so, and I've never heard it said. Nor can I remember reading in 20+ years any owner quoted as wanting to win a race just because it's Saratoga. Maybe it's all just eluded me.


I has.

[thespaah]

One way to determine whether this is true is to look at average field sizes of big open stakes at Saratoga. Are they any larger than those at Del Mar, for instance? I've seen plenty of 5 horse (and even a few 4 and 3 horse) fields in the major Saratoga stakes over the years.
I was not referring to just stakes races.

[thespaah]

I has.
Jeez.. I cannot believe some of these people.
Anyone who has been around the block with Thoroughbred racing knows or at least has an idea that The Spa is one place where any owner who has one, proudly display that one winner's photo on the wall of the room where they entertain their guests.
A win at Saratoga says something special.

[affirmedny]

I has.

All one has to do is watch the opening of the msg/fs1 show today and watch the clip of Maggie and her husband Wed for a good example.

[EMD4ME]

I has.
:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

It's well known to everyone, at least I thought so :)

[SG4]

. Barclay Tagg won the 5th race by 5+ lengths with a maiden for Fipke he'd been sitting on since a second place finish in December at Gulstream. The horse got pounded down to 2-1 off works that were called A by the clockers. In hindsight he could have ran this horse weeks ago maybe eve a month ago in a variety of spots downstate and won. Fipke loves Saratoga so they waited.

I had this horse on a watch list since last year specifically looking for her to run at Belmont, Tagg was quoted somewhere saying she got over the Belmont track really well but maybe wasn't quite as fond at Saratoga. I'm thinking 2 things -1, if she was ready she would've been racing at Belmont. 2, if Tagg's opinion is still true, she might really be one to watch when they head back downstate.

[depalma113]

After that race, in reality who is going to show up? Cotillion at Philly Park is double the purse I believe at $1 million and is a couple weeks later. Hard enough to get entries for this past race, I can only imagine who shows up now. Gives other fillies a chance to be graded stakes placed or even win if she loses, but with another big race for twice the amount and avoiding this monster, should be interesting. Maybe the ML will be closer to 1/9 :)

Has any MDO filly won at a mile and a quarter?

[depalma113]

I would buy this argument about why people run no chance entries in the Ky Derby.

But Saratoga? The vast, vast majority of people in this gane do not give two hoots about Saratoga as a "special" place. That is a totally parochial, New York view.

Well, I have been involved in two year-old training sales for nearly 25 years and have been around numerous trainers and owners. I can say, almost all of them want four things. To win the Kentucky Derby, to win a Breeders Cup and to win at Saratoga and Keeneland.

[biggestal99]

Has any MDO filly won at a mile and a quarter?

Marketing Mix won at 12F in graded company. :-)

Allan

[classhandicapper]

Has any MDO filly won at a mile and a quarter?

I think it could be a more interesting test for her than this last race. 10F on dirt at Saratoga is sometimes a lot tougher for speed horses than at other places. If she's pressed (or at least challenged) early and there's someone in there that really wants 10f, the last 1/16th could be challenging.

[v j stauffer]

I know a number of owners who have raced there or have the opportunity to do so, and I've never heard it said. Nor can I remember reading in 20+ years any owner quoted as wanting to win a race just because it's Saratoga. Maybe it's all just eluded me.

I believe it has.

[bobphilo]

Read the start of the thread. The whole argument here is whether there are going to be no chance entrants that show up against Songbird at Saratoga.
I was responding to the post that claimed that a meet quality is based on the field size in major stakes.
If Songbird scares away non-contenders making for small but select fields that is no knock on the SPA.

[classhandicapper]

If Songbird scares away non-contenders making for small but select fields that is no knock on the SPA.

There's not much that can be done remedy this. It's been a problem for as long as the game has been around. Man O War used to run in 2, 3 and 4 horse fields because no one wanted to face him. These days, with all the opportunities to get black type, horses will even ship away from their home base to avoid a champion. When it happens, you can't hold it against the horse or the track.

[thespaah]

There's not much that can be done remedy this. It's been a problem for as long as the game has been around. Man O War used to run in 2, 3 and 4 horse fields because no one wanted to face him. These days, with all the opportunities to get black type, horses will even ship away from their home base to avoid a champion. When it happens, you can't hold it against the horse or the track.
One issue is the amount of graded stake races and/or non graded events with huge slots inflated purses.
IMO there are too many graded stake races.
yeah, connections can avoid other high caliber horses by chasing huge purses.
For example. Yes the PA Derby has been around a while. However, the only thing that keeps this event going is the fact that Parx can dip into the slots money and inflate the purse to seven figures.
Same goes for the West Virginia Derby. I think that race carries a purse of $1.5 million.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

It is a light division to begin with. Lots of options this time of year, inflated purses, horses in training that cant make it to the race, and of course this filly who could be the best three year old right now

[Fager Fan]

I believe it has.

Yes, people here keep saying that, yet it's weird that I missed the quotes in all these years.

I don't think it's not a nice thing, but instead exaggerated here. It strikes me as the afterthought nicety after the initial thrill of actually winning the race, regardless of location. You all make it sound as if it's more special to owners to win a claimer at the Spa than win the Cotillion at Parx.

[the little guy]

Yes, people here keep saying that, yet it's weird that I missed the quotes in all these years.

I don't think it's not a nice thing, but instead exaggerated here. It strikes me as the afterthought nicety after the initial thrill of actually winning the race, regardless of location. You all make it sound as if it's more special to owners to win a claimer at the Spa than win the Cotillion at Parx.


A stellar example of passively aggressive obnoxiousness.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

A stellar example of passively aggressive obnoxiousness.

Everybody wants to win at Saratoga.

Be it owners, trainers, jockeys, or us small time horse players. It is THE meet to win.

Not sure why people have a problem with that. I love Del Mar as well, but 'Toga is a notch above. Love Keeneland, Santa Anita, and other big time tracks, but they simply don't compare to 'Toga. They just don't.

I mean, you win a race at 'Toga, you damn well done something. Especially if you win a Maiden, or a Stakes race, or by chance a Graded Stakes race.

Anyway...., monster carryover for the Pick 6. Time to get to work after I win the 8th at Del Mar. :cool:

[SuperPickle]

The Curlin at Saratoga today was another example of people "waiting for Saratoga." Chad Brown ran one-two with horses he sat on since May and June. He could have ran them in a bunch of stakes (Peter Pan, Matt Win, Long Branch, Ohio Derby) and about a dozen allowances.

Instead he waited to go Curlin to Travers.

Saratoga is a big deal.

[Dahoss9698]

The Curlin at Saratoga today was another example of people "waiting for Saratoga." Chad Brown ran one-two with horses he sat on since May and June. He could have ran them in a bunch of stakes (Peter Pan, Matt Win, Long Branch, Ohio Derby) and about a dozen allowances.

Instead he waited to go Curlin to Travers.

Saratoga is a big deal.
Obviously I agree with your premise but I'm not sure these two are the best examples.

Connect ran early June and Gift Box ran end of May. The Peter Pan was middle of May. You and I both know he's not shipping for the Ohio Derby.

Does he point to this meet? Of course.

[depalma113]

Marketing Mix won at 12F in graded company. :-)

Allan

Yes, but that was on the turf. I want to know the MDO fillies that have done it on dirt.

[delsully]

Obviously I agree with your premise but I'm not sure these two are the best examples.

Connect ran early June and Gift Box ran end of May. The Peter Pan was middle of May. You and I both know he's not shipping for the Ohio Derby.

Does he point to this meet? Of course.

Those two horses would be better off in the Ohio Derby compared to the Travers.

[Fager Fan]

Yes, but that was on the turf. I want to know the MDO fillies that have done it on dirt.

How many 10 and 12f dirt races exist? When there are so few in existence, stats are rendered meaningless.