Why Don't BEL & SAR Consolidate Their Turf Courses?

[Thomas Roulston]

If they did, the result would be extremely similar to Gulfstream's, Arlington's and Laurel's turf courses at Saratoga, and a super-size version of these at Belmont. Also, at Saratoga, a backstretch chute similar to Monmouth's could be built, allowing for 6-furlong turf races instead of topping out turf sprints at 5 1/2 furlongs.

The Wilson Mile Chute should also be reinstated on the dirt at Saratoga. Going from 7 furlongs to 1 1/18 miles on dirt is, for lack of a better term, Mickey Mouse - and Ellis Park does fine with its Wilson-like 1 mile chute on the dirt: Their races at that distance are wildly popular with horsemen and players alike (maximum 12-horse fields).

[EMD4ME]

If they did, the result would be extremely similar to Gulfstream's, Arlington's and Laurel's turf courses at Saratoga, and a super-size version of these at Belmont. Also, at Saratoga, a backstretch chute similar to Monmouth's could be built, allowing for 6-furlong turf races instead of topping out turf sprints at 5 1/2 furlongs.

The Wilson Mile Chute should also be reinstated on the dirt at Saratoga. Going from 7 furlongs to 1 1/18 miles on dirt is, for lack of a better term, Mickey Mouse - and Ellis Park does fine with its Wilson-like 1 mile chute on the dirt: Their races at that distance are wildly popular with horsemen and players alike (maximum 12-horse fields).

Why? So we can have absolutely no clue what each distance is/where 1/16 markers are?

[OTM Al]

The Wilson Mile Chute should also be reinstated on the dirt at Saratoga. Going from 7 furlongs to 1 1/18 miles on dirt is, for lack of a better term, Mickey Mouse - and Ellis Park does fine with its Wilson-like 1 mile chute on the dirt: Their races at that distance are wildly popular with horsemen and players alike (maximum 12-horse fields).
No, it's just the way it is on a 1 1/8 mile track. That chute will never come back as it would run through too much prime real estate.

[andtheyreoff]

Why? So we can have absolutely no clue what each distance is/where 1/16 markers are?

Apparently. If anything, life would be a lot easier if Gulfstream and Laurel separated their grass courses. Many of Gulfstream's grass races are run on, essentially, a seven-furlong course, but they aren't marked in the PPs as such.

And I doubt that anyone besides the OP thinks Saratoga is any poorer for not having that one-mile chute.

[Thomas Roulston]

Saratoga's Mellon Turf Course measures 1 mile plus 98 feet. What constructive purpose does the additional 98 feet serve? Move the rail in 15.6 feet - impossible with the separation of the two turf courses - and the MTC becomes exactly 1 mile.

Same goes for the Inner Turf Course and its 7 furlongs plus 304 feet. Move that rail out 4.14 feet and the result is a 7 1/2-furlong course, exactly.

The major virtue of eliminating the separate turf courses is that you can run larger fields - up to even 20 if the starting position is far enough away from the turn.

They're supposed to be in the business of having horses race - not having horses not race because they're scratching to 12 or even 10 horses.

[castaway01]

Saratoga's Mellon Turf Course measures 1 mile plus 98 feet. What constructive purpose does the additional 98 feet serve? Move the rail in 15.6 feet - impossible with the separation of the two turf courses - and the MTC becomes exactly 1 mile.

Same goes for the Inner Turf Course and its 7 furlongs plus 304 feet. Move that rail out 4.14 feet and the result is a 7 1/2-furlong course, exactly.

The major virtue of eliminating the separate turf courses is that you can run larger fields - up to even 20 if the starting position is far enough away from the turn.

They're supposed to be in the business of having horses race - not having horses not race because they're scratching to 12 or even 10 horses.

You're creating problems where there aren't any.

[SuperPickle]

You're creating problems where there aren't any.

Totally agreed.

First, because of the Saratoga meet neither Belmont or Saratoga need to do this because the course heals during the other meet. Those tracks need to do that because of the length of their meets.

Second, the three tracks you mention are HORRENDOUS at timing their races. CJ can attest that race times are constantly wrong. Sometimes over a second. No one wants that at NYRA.

Third, NYRA tried bringing back the mile races at some point. Maybe the 90's? I can't remember the exact year. But the horsemen hated it. It a huge bias. I can't remember if it was post positions or speed bias but the races were a joke. And the horseman weren't too excited about starting million dollar horses in the middle of the turn.

Bringing back the mile chute would be a trainwreck.

[the little guy]

Late 80s or early 90s. It went straight into the first turn, and in the beginning only inside posts did any good. I think later that may have changed a bit and perhaps the experiment didn't even last the meet. I also believe the races were limited to eight entrants.

Maybe I can find out about it.....right after I sneak out tonight to dig up the hedges and make that one turf course.

[burnsy]

You're creating problems where there aren't any.

Exactly, with the number of races and the summer weather the courses barely make the 6 weeks some years. Gulfstream is a joke of an example. Who wants a beach with sand kick back? They work after hours just to keep those courses alive when its hot like this. I know this for a fact. The number of races on the grass almost dictates two courses. One course and weather like we are having would eventually be a pretty big problem. These courses are torn up every race but meticulously maintained and its not easy, that crew works OT.

[thespaah]

No, it's just the way it is on a 1 1/8 mile track. That chute will never come back as it would run through too much prime real estate.
The chute was back for a few years. Then NYRA decided to put the suites in the clubhouse turn. Bye bye chute.

[thespaah]

Exactly, with the number of races and the summer weather the courses barely make the 6 weeks some years. Gulfstream is a joke of an example. Who wants a beach with sand kick back? They work after hours just to keep those courses alive when its hot like this. I know this for a fact. The number of races on the grass almost dictates two courses. One course and weather like we are having would eventually be a pretty big problem. These courses are torn up every race but meticulously maintained and its not easy, that crew works OT.
Laurel has a single turf course that is I think 140 feet wide.
But, unlike Gulfstream with the sandy soil and Bermuda grass turf which tears up easily, Laurel's turf is deep rooting cool season grass, most likely fescue blends in a heavier clay and loam type soil. The horses hooves do not damage the turf or the base nearly as much.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Gulfstream has a 100 foot wide turf course and none of us know what it really is or how it plays!

[CincyHorseplayer]

I like how NY has their turf courses set up. It's a little complicated but that is far better than it being beat up.

[EMD4ME]

Gulfstream has a 100 foot wide turf course and none of us know what it really is or how it plays!

Between that and their timing, I wager close to zero on their garbage (I'm talking about their championship meet).

Hate it when horses come back from GP to NY as I can't trust the timing, run ups etc. Hate their product.

[Thomas Roulston]

Laurel's turf course width is 160 feet - with a gap of just 18 feet between the rail on the dirt and the outside fence on the turf (the "standard" gap on the "standard" 1-mile dirt track with a 7-furlong turf course inside of it is 25 feet, and can be as much as 30 feet), while Gulfstream's turf width is 170 feet, with a 21-foot gap between it and the main track. Saratoga's would "only" be about 142 feet if they took down the permanent rail between the Mellon and Inner Turf Courses. And why does there need to be any gap at all? See Woodbine's courses.

By the way, the width of Churchill Downs' dirt course at the Derby Start is 120 feet. If a stand-alone, 20-horse gate were to be constructed (a six-horse auxiliary gate is used if necessary for the Derby), a width of about 112 feet would be necessary to fit such a gate into the course (remember that Woodbine lobbied for 20-horse limits for the Breeders' Cup turf races the last time they hosted the BC; the E.P. Taylor Turf Course is 120 feet wide).

[OTM Al]

The chute was back for a few years. Then NYRA decided to put the suites in the clubhouse turn. Bye bye chute.
That would be the prime real estate. Those were supposed to be made permanent structures according to the design plans but who knows anymore