Dortmund: Weight?

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Sorry for the question, but I thought I heard a snippet on TVG passingly that Dortmund is like 100 pounds lighter than he was just a couple of months or so ago?

Just wondering if anybody had any news on him in his comeback race today while facing Chrome in the San Diego Handicap.

Was he just unfit and needed some training? Did he get sick? I just haven't heard any news on the big fella. Then again, maybe I heard it completely wrong.

Any info would be greatly appreciated. I tried the interwebz but couldn't find ****.

[ebcorde]

Sorry for the question, but I thought I heard a snippet on TVG passingly that Dortmund is like 100 pounds lighter than he was just a couple of months or so ago?

Just wondering if anybody had any news on him in his comeback race today while facing Chrome in the San Diego Handicap.

Was he just unfit and needed some training? Did he get sick? I just haven't heard any news on the big fella. Then again, maybe I heard it completely wrong.

Any info would be greatly appreciated. I tried the interwebz but couldn't find ****.

call , or tweet TVG. they have a messaging app

[olddaddy]

A horses weight should be posted public knowledge like in japan and hong kong.

[Bennie]

i always wanted to know the horses weights during the triple crown races but could never find any source. was always curious as to who was holding weight, who lost weight and who filled out and put on a few pounds. generally if they lost weight, I would play against them.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

i always wanted to know the horses weights during the triple crown races but could never find any source. was always curious as to who was holding weight, who lost weight and who filled out and put on a few pounds. generally if they lost weight, I would play against them.

Along with you and Olddaddy, this SHOULD be public information. Important information oh by the way.

And like you said, during the Triple Crown season for 3YO's that is critical info. Even as a 4YO for Dortmund, and I'm hearing something about him being 100 pounds lighter, or maybe even more, I want to know. I need to know if I want to wager into a likely 2 horse race if he has a real shot of beating Chrome.

[outofthebox]

Along with you and Olddaddy, this SHOULD be public information. Important information oh by the way.

And like you said, during the Triple Crown season for 3YO's that is critical info. Even as a 4YO for Dortmund, and I'm hearing something about him being 100 pounds lighter, or maybe even more, I want to know. I need to know if I want to wager into a likely 2 horse race if he has a real shot of beating Chrome.I can't find the article, but read that he weighed in at over 1300 lbs in recent weeks. Baffert has been breezing him every 5 days trying to get the big fella fit.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

I can't find the article, but read that he weighed in at over 1300 lbs in recent weeks. Baffert has been breezing him every 5 days trying to get the big fella fit.

I think we kinda heard the same.

I think the big fella gets it done today. :ThmbUp:

[arw629]

Too bad we never saw Chrome and AP go at it

[linrom1]

So much for Dortmund. He went off at 6/5 against Chrome? I don't think we'll see the horse race again! :lol:

[Grits]

So much for Dortmund. He went off at 6/5 against Chrome? I don't think we'll see the horse race again! :lol:

Believe you will see him again. He ran well off a layoff. He and Chrome were neck and neck to the wire.

It's good to see both of them still running!

[Lemon Drop Husker]

So much for Dortmund. He went off at 6/5 against Chrome? I don't think we'll see the horse race again! :lol:

The Chromies are unbearable at times.

[zico20]

Believe you will see him again. He ran well off a layoff. He and Chrome were neck and neck to the wire.

It's good to see both of them still running!

It was a great race. The question now is the distance of the Pacific Classic. Many posters on here have always said Dortmund is not a classic distance horse. I wonder if that will change with him as he is now a four year old.

[no breathalyzer]

THE CHAMP!... 4/5 WAS A GIFT.. can't believe there is not one chrome thread on front page pathetic

[OntheRail]

THE CHAMP!... 4/5 WAS A GIFT.. can't believe there is not one chrome thread on front page pathetic
Little Button Upper left side... click it and start one... :rolleyes:

That was a thrilling race for such a short field... Dortmund ran a big one for being off for 7+ months. And Chrome what a trooper... can't wait for Beholder to get in the mix with these guys. :jump:

[outofthebox]

THE CHAMP!... 4/5 WAS A GIFT.. can't believe there is not one chrome thread on front page patheticWhat? You didn't have the $4.10 tri. Now that WAS A GIFT

[Psychotic Parakeet]

Sorry for the question, but I thought I heard a snippet on TVG passingly that Dortmund is like 100 pounds lighter than he was just a couple of months or so ago?

Just wondering if anybody had any news on him in his comeback race today while facing Chrome in the San Diego Handicap.

Was he just unfit and needed some training? Did he get sick? I just haven't heard any news on the big fella. Then again, maybe I heard it completely wrong.

Any info would be greatly appreciated. I tried the interwebz but couldn't find ****.

He was found cast in his stall, got time off, came back, and then back on the shelf again from foot issues.

[whodoyoulike]

He was found cast in his stall, got time off, came back, and then back on the shelf again from foot issues.


What does "found cast in his stall" mean?

Btw, I thought both CC and Dortmund ran well and both in good times yesterday. Nobody was going to beat CC in that race.

Any news on how they came out of that race?

[woodbinepmi]

Usually when a horse cast themselves, they have lied down or rolled and can't get their feet back under themselves to get back up because they are stuck up against a wall.

[SPEEDHORSE]

What is the BEYER for the SAN DIEGO HANDICAP?

[affirmedny]

What is the BEYER for the SAN DIEGO HANDICAP?

111

[rastajenk]

A horses weight should be posted public knowledge like in japan and hong kong. generally if they lost weight, I would play against them.... this SHOULD be public information. Important information oh by the way...Even as a 4YO for Dortmund, and I'm hearing something about him being 100 pounds lighter, or maybe even more, I want to know...

While not trying to be argumentative, and genuinely wanting to know: you'd flip a decision based on weight? After going through the usual checks like class, form, pace, speed, trainer/jock stats, algorithms, computer output...you'd still say, "Can't do it; he's lost weight." Would you start with weight and eliminate one even before going through the usual drills? How many losing wagers would it take to begin thinking that maybe you've overthought it? To me, it's like handicapping off vet records; a foolish pursuit.

Since they do it in Asia, have there been any studies correlating weight and performance, or weight and wagering ROI? Or is it just an intuitive thing?

[biggestal99]

It was a great race. .

Yeah It was OK but beisdes CC giving weight to D he always had him measured during the race. didn't give his all.

CC>D

thats just the way it is.

Allan

[cj]

Yeah It was OK but beisdes CC giving weight to D he always had him measured during the race. didn't give his all.

CC>D

thats just the way it is.

Allan

Way too early to say that IMO. One was coming off a longer layoff and some physical issues. The other came off a layoff, but it was planned. We'll see, Chrome was certainly the better horse on Saturday.

[outofthebox]

Yeah It was OK but beisdes CC giving weight to D he always had him measured during the race. didn't give his all.

CC>D

thats just the way it is.

AllanBoth horses ran superb, and both trainers had them in excellent shape for this race off their respective layoffs. I agree with you that it seemed CC had him measured around the turn, but i don't agree that CC didn't give his all. They were both reaching and digging at the wire and both galloped out nicely together. It was a nice weekend to be a race fan...

[classhandicapper]

We already know how good Chrome is. We still don't know how good Dortmund is. He's still relatively lightly raced for a 4yo. He didn't have that full fall campaign at 3 to continue his development.

Another question is how he's going to come out of this race. That was a pretty hard race first after a long layoff. I'm not sure what that means. Maybe it will serve as a good prep and move him forward but maybe it was too much too soon and will set him back before he starts moving forward again.

[chadk66]

Dortmund's weight appeared to be spot on. Ran a huge race. In regards to someone mentioning horses weights should be published for the public, I'm not sure if that would help or hurt. Horses weight fluctuates greatly from day to day let alone week to week. I used to weigh my horses daily. Totally blew me away the fluctuations. And you can't see it on em either until it gets to a couple hundred pounds. Hell they can have 20 pounds of feces in em at any given time.

[cj]

Dortmund's weight appeared to be spot on. Ran a huge race. In regards to someone mentioning horses weights should be published for the public, I'm not sure if that would help or hurt. Horses weight fluctuates greatly from day to day let alone week to week. I used to weigh my horses daily. Totally blew me away the fluctuations. And you can't see it on em either until it gets to a couple hundred pounds. Hell they can have 20 pounds of feces in em at any given time.

I remember when Freehold weighed standardbreds and tried to use the info. It was pretty useless IMO. Weights were all over the place and didn't seem to correspond at all to performance.

[chadk66]

I remember when Freehold weighed standardbreds and tried to use the info. It was pretty useless IMO. Weights were all over the place and didn't seem to correspond at all to performance.that was kind of my inclination too. There is so much that comes into play. Higher heat times mean lighter horses but that also means they're all lighter weight. Winter the opposite. I just think it would be more clutter to sort through with no positives to it.

[chadk66]

I know I've said this before but I am a piss poor handicapper off of PP's etc. So rarely bet. Three years ago I spent four or five days in a row at Cby. Used PP's etc. the first day and I maybe cashed a couple tickets. So I gave up on that and just started looking at horses in the paddock and post parade and coming up with a horse I felt appeared to be in the right mind set and appeared physically to be ready to win. I backed that up with PP's to basically eliminate a horse on paper that really had no shot. I cashed far more tickets that way. I never bet any gimmick bets though just straight up WPS. It was kind of strange how that worked out.

[biggestal99]

Way too early to say that IMO. One was coming off a longer layoff and some physical issues. The other came off a layoff, but it was planned. We'll see, Chrome was certainly the better horse on Saturday.

well D has only won 2 G1 races in his career; whereas CC has many G1 scalps in his belt. also CC was coming off a trip from the dreaded Meydan, which is a long way from Callie.

Allan

[cj]

well D has only won 2 G1 races in his career; whereas CC has many G1 scalps in his belt. also CC was coming off a trip from the dreaded Meydan, which is a long way from Callie.

Allan

All I'm saying is Dortmund could get better.

The Dubai knockout thing is a phony myth.

[whodoyoulike]

Dortmund's weight appeared to be spot on. Ran a huge race. In regards to someone mentioning horses weights should be published for the public, I'm not sure if that would help or hurt. Horses weight fluctuates greatly from day to day let alone week to week. I used to weigh my horses daily. Totally blew me away the fluctuations. And you can't see it on em either until it gets to a couple hundred pounds. Hell they can have 20 pounds of feces in em at any given time.

I think this fluctuation of at least 100 lbs. +/- is what the OP was concerned about.

Again, I don't think anyone knew but it was based on a comment whether it was true or not because Dortmund seemed to run just fine. And, if I remember correctly, I don't think he was all out in the stretch. We'll probably have to wait for the PC or the BCC.

Since we don't have the weights available, when wouldn't you enter your horses if they had a weight change and at what level of increase or reduction from what you considered ideal for the horse?

[Tee]

Since we don't have the weights available, when wouldn't you enter your horses if they had a weight change and at what level of increase or reduction from what you considered ideal for the horse?

A weight change wouldn't prevent an entry or a scratch imo. The root cause of the weight change most certainly would.

When it comes to weight increase or reduction, a thoroughbred race horse is either fat or fit. I would think a trainer that has had any sort of time with his/her trainee would most certainly know what is ideal.

In this case I think Bob Baffert would know when Dortmund is ready to go.

[woodbinepmi]

As a Hong Kong player, the only time I concern myself with weight is when they are coming off a layoff or if a horse has run five or six races without any kind of break. Usually they will be within 10 to 15 pounds from their heaviest to their lightest.

[sammy the sage]

I posted years ago on weight...after ORB and OTHERS lost weight after the Kentucky Derby....was TOTALLY bashed here by bossman and others....thread was locked...yet I pm'd him PROOF....never an apology or opening of thread....funny how THE climate/Attitude HAS changed around here.....just sayin '''' :faint: :rolleyes: :lol: :( :bang: :mad: :eek:

[chadk66]

I think this fluctuation of at least 100 lbs. +/- is what the OP was concerned about.

Again, I don't think anyone knew but it was based on a comment whether it was true or not because Dortmund seemed to run just fine. And, if I remember correctly, I don't think he was all out in the stretch. We'll probably have to wait for the PC or the BCC.

Since we don't have the weights available, when wouldn't you enter your horses if they had a weight change and at what level of increase or reduction from what you considered ideal for the horse?never used weight as a determining factor ever. strictly based it on how they we're training, eating and feeling. And of course if they had a physical ailment. I honestly don't think weight on a horse is an angle to be concerned with. There is sprung weight (jockey, equipment, etc.) and un-sprung weight. Sprung weight has some bearing. Un-sprung not really. Sure if you have a horse that is 200 pounds over weight they aren't going to run but that is directly related to conditioning usually.

[outofthebox]

never used weight as a determining factor ever. strictly based it on how they we're training, eating and feeling. And of course if they had a physical ailment. I honestly don't think weight on a horse is an angle to be concerned with. There is sprung weight (jockey, equipment, etc.) and un-sprung weight. Sprung weight has some bearing. Un-sprung not really. Sure if you have a horse that is 200 pounds over weight they aren't going to run but that is directly related to conditioning usually.Agree here. We constantly weigh our horses once a week and over the years have never seen much of a difference of 20lbs or so.

[sammy the sage]

When they lose 100lbs Plus...they don't run as well...PERIOD....Super Savior, Orb,....many others....

oh wait....heaven forbid if that becomes public knowledge....BEFORE a race...:rolleyes: :eek: :faint:

[whodoyoulike]

Agree here. We constantly weigh our horses once a week and over the years have never seen much of a difference of 20lbs or so.

Well that's good to know but what about when they get sick or is this normal?

I know when I'm ill with the flu etc., for a few days I can lose 10 + lbs. or I can gain weight which affects me but, I don't weigh 1000 - 1300 lbs..

I think the concern is because we don't see the reports, how do we know they aren't off from their ideal weight?

Unless you're stating they don't have an ideal racing weight.

[chadk66]

Well that's good to know but what about when they get sick or is this normal?

I know when I'm ill with the flu etc., for a few days I can lose 10 + lbs. or I can gain weight which affects me but, I don't weigh 1000 - 1300 lbs..

I think the concern is because we don't see the reports, how do we know they aren't off from their ideal weight?

Unless you're stating they don't have an ideal racing weight.that's the point they really don't have an ideal racing weight. Their weight gain/loss can be 20-40 lbs in a couple days back and forth all the time. It's all based on when you weigh em. before/after they eat, piss, poop, work out, etc. They have a range they may perform better in and that range is rather big so I don't think it would benefit handicappers at all. Just add more to the confusion. Orb would be a good example. Didn't need anybody telling you his weight because if you were half awake you could see he lost substantial weight. They need to loose a hundred pounds to really see it. With Orb you saw it. So the red light should have came on. They loose that much weight due to stress/being overworked or being ill. As a trainer you generally know which one is the culprit. Being ill means the horse isn't running.

[chadk66]

Let's look at something else. When I trained I leased two of these and used them on every horse every day. I can flat guarantee you that this machine made my horses much stronger deep in the stretch. In fact my horses rarely ever backed up in the stretch. It was a huge part of my program. If I trained today I would have two tomorrow. Now, that being said should I have to divulge this to bettor's? I surely don't want other trainers to know how beneficial it is to my horses. Rusty Arnold was the only other trainer I knew that used one at the time. It certainly gave me an edge.

http://www.centurionsystems.com/transpirator/

[Donttellmeshowme]

How many people here would use weight in there handicapping if it was available?

[PaceAdvantage]

I posted years ago on weight...after ORB and OTHERS lost weight after the Kentucky Derby....was TOTALLY bashed here by bossman and others....thread was locked...yet I pm'd him PROOF....never an apology or opening of thread....funny how THE climate/Attitude HAS changed around here.....just sayin '''' :faint: :rolleyes: :lol: :( :bang: :mad: :eek:Write in English and you might actually get a cogent response. I have no idea what you're talking about.

I'd like you to link to the locked thread though. I'd enjoy seeing if what you actually attempt to write above is actually true. It might be, and I'd enjoy reading what you see as "bashed by bossman." It's probably a rather polite disagreement. But you've always been one to exaggerate and carry that 100 ton chip on your shoulder.

[PaceAdvantage]

And I like how everyone who has replied after "I see stupid people" has done nothing but ignore the sage (well, everyone except me, but I'm a sucker). :lol:

Put up the link to the locked thread.

[sammy the sage]

And I like how everyone who has replied after "I see stupid people" has done nothing but ignore the sage (well, everyone except me, but I'm a sucker). :lol:

Put up the link to the locked thread.

Yes...personal insults do you well...especially when you're blatantly WRONG...

here you go...and not....ain't finding the proof FOR you...did THAT 3 years AGO......

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103451

[PaceAdvantage]

If you consider that bashing, then I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Sooner or later, that chip will get too big for even you to carry around.

[Cratos]

I think this fluctuation of at least 100 lbs. +/- is what the OP was concerned about.

Again, I don't think anyone knew but it was based on a comment whether it was true or not because Dortmund seemed to run just fine. And, if I remember correctly, I don't think he was all out in the stretch. We'll probably have to wait for the PC or the BCC.

Since we don't have the weights available, when wouldn't you enter your horses if they had a weight change and at what level of increase or reduction from what you considered ideal for the horse?

Yes, a horse’s bodyweight plus its load do make a difference in its performance; we use a performance weight algorithm in our predictive handicapping model.

It is necessary to estimate a horse’s bodyweight based on its performance to have a good understanding of the number of joules needed for the horse’s performance which will help determine the amount of work (energy) done by the horse during its performance.

A 450kg (about 1000 lbs) thoroughbred would burn around 19 MJ in just 2 minutes for a mile race. That's pretty impressive when it gets most of its energy from glucose.

Somewhere on this forum, the poster, “Magister Ludi” has posted a very good overview about the racehorse energy consumption.

Also a good reference for this calculation is “Bioenergetics and Racehorse Ratings” by Bob Wilkins.

However it should be understood that individual horses vary greatly, as do environments they race in. Cold weather, parasites, age, body weight and many other factors can affect energy requirements.

[sammy the sage]

back to THE original topic...supposedly Dortman GAINED 10lbs...post time Pacific classic...let's see if that helps!

[sammy the sage]

he ran credible...no match for the champs tho...

[Tom]

How many people here would use weight in there handicapping if it was available?

Probably anyone who found it to be predictive of performance.
Won't know until it is available and can be quantified.

Unless someone like TRAKUS does the weighing and doesn't count the whole weight of the horse. :rolleyes:

[outofthebox]

Baffert should run him in the BC Mile for sure now...