Down the ladder

[arw629]

http://www.nj.com/horse-racing/index.ssf/2012/06/new_jersey-based_my_adonis_looks_to_make_history_of_his_own_a t_belmont_park.html

1 for his last 15 and in for a nickel at Finger Lakes today!

[cj]

This is just sad. I've said it many times, the claiming game needs to go away.

[SuperPickle]

This is just sad. I've said it many times, the claiming game needs to go away.


Are you thinking harness racing conditions like non winners of blank $$$ in blank races? Or classifications?

[cj]

Are you thinking harness racing conditions like non winners of blank $$$ in blank races? Or classifications?

It would have to be well thought out and worked out over time, not something I could put together in a PA post right now.

Don't get me wrong I have nothing against the horse racing if he is still sound. It just seems like some guys don't know where to draw the line and the outcome for this horse most likely won't be good.

[johnhannibalsmith]

It would have to be well thought out and worked out over time, not something I could put together in a PA post right now.

...

I'd love to read it because it's awfully hard to come up with an alternate system that protects all of the declining horses from another undesirable fate, doesn't encourage harness type manipulation for eligibility purposes, and doesn't otherwise make it seem like the game itself is just too flawed to persevere with in trying to tie up all those loose ends. I'm not saying this as a wiseass sort of rebuttal, it's a sincere position based on what I've read in terms of similar floated ideas. To boil it down, the problem is still the unscrupulous that willingly create the problem you are trying to address aren't being addressed (though we've seen baby steps taken to do just this with voided claims, etc.) and ultimately, that seems to be the problem more than the claiming system.

[SuperPickle]

It would have to be well thought out and worked out over time, not something I could put together in a PA post right now.

Don't get me wrong I have nothing against the horse racing if he is still sound. It just seems like some guys don't know where to draw the line and the outcome for this horse most likely won't be good.

The one of the reasons I asked is Monday night I noticed a harness condition that was NW 6 races and then had an alternative qualification of $82K lifetime. I glanced at the horses and saw the favorite who was from a powerhouse barn had $80K in career earnings.

So the problem of having to appease the guys with big barns still exists in that sport too.

As I've said about Ron Burke in the past he's certainly a great trainer but having the market force of training hundreds of horses gives you lots of leverage with racing secretaries. They don't write special conditions for guys with five horses.

[macguy]

Earned over $50,000/year for 2015 and 2014, looks to me like he's earning his keep.

[EMD4ME]

Earned over $50,000/year for 2015 and 2014, looks to me like he's earning his keep.

And $3,390 in 2016, last time he earned a real check was a year ago ($3000).

I blame all 4 recent trainers.

David Scumbag Jacobson

Danny Gargantuan

Linda Rice

Sydney Dutrow

Not one of them cared enough to find him a home. I actually (ironically) blame Jacobson less as the horse was productive during his handling of the horse and I blame Dutrow less for the same reason.

The next 2, little excuse. Rice dumped the horse at FL for 5,000 hoping he would go away. Repulsive.

[Tom]

True story - back in the 70's, Finger Lakes put in a rule that if a horse had not finished in the money, 1-2-3, in any of it's last 6 races, it was not eligible to run.

Very quickly, the entries took such a major hit the rule was rescinded.

[Big Peps]

And $3,390 in 2016, last time he earned a real check was a year ago ($3000).

I blame all 4 recent trainers.

David Scumbag Jacobson

Danny Gargantuan

Linda Rice

Sydney Dutrow

Not one of them cared enough to find him a home. I actually (ironically) blame Jacobson less as the horse was productive during his handling of the horse and I blame Dutrow less for the same reason.

The next 2, little excuse. Rice dumped the horse at FL for 5,000 hoping he would go away. Repulsive.

He ran 2nd yesterday, shows a pretty steady work pattern, including a bullet. Understanding he's running cheap and has fallen off, but who is to say that he isn't sound. I don't see the big deal. I wouldn't call it repulsive and people who claim a horse for 5k in November at Finger Lakes do so with the understanding that the horse will most likely get laid up for the winter. Looks like the new owners and trainer are treating the horse fine from the outside looking in? Never really know but there is no crime in running a horse where you think they can win although he may have been a stake horse years ago.

[no breathalyzer]

He ran 2nd yesterday, shows a pretty steady work pattern, including a bullet. Understanding he's running cheap and has fallen off, but who is to say that he isn't sound. I don't see the big deal. I wouldn't call it repulsive and people who claim a horse for 5k in November at Finger Lakes do so with the understanding that the horse will most likely get laid up for the winter. Looks like the new owners and trainer are treating the horse fine from the outside looking in? Never really know but there is no crime in running a horse where you think they can win although he may have been a stake horse years ago.
:ThmbUp: thank you i was going to say this yesterday

[no breathalyzer]

also i didn't see the race but horse did lose to a good above your average nickel claimer aswell.. actually the winner was a straight up Lock

[Big Peps]

:ThmbUp: thank you i was going to say this yesterday


Yep, I am running a horse with huge pedigree at finger lakes and PID for a nickel-$7,500 and have been for 2 years, horse is sound as a dollar, loves training and racing. Did I think that is where he would wind up? hell no but gives him the best shot at win and where he belongs, he gets better on the synthetic and turf ( Not good enough). Is what it is, he pays his way and we have a lot of fun with him as he is a very cool horse. So why not? geeze, he didn't live up to expectation but such is the game

[pandy]

If claiming races were eliminated I'm not sure if I'd continue to bet horses. Maiden claiming and restricted claiming races, like N2L and N3L, or even the time restricted claiming races, are my most profitable races (along with MSW races).

Generally speaking, allowance races are not good betting races because of the fact that the condition is not precise. For instance, NW3 other than maiden, claiming, or starter. The NW3 doesn't mean much because there could be horses in the race that have 12 wins. You have to be extremely selective to find good bets in allowance races and if, as a bettor, I have to pass almost every race, I would lose interest in the game.

[Big Peps]

If claiming races were eliminated I'm not sure if I'd continue to bet horses. Maiden claiming and restricted claiming races, like N2L and N3L, or even the time restricted claiming races, are my most profitable races (along with MSW races).

Generally speaking, allowance races are not good betting races because of the fact that the condition is not precise. For instance, NW3 other than maiden, claiming, or starter. The NW3 doesn't mean much because there could be horses in the race that have 12 wins. You have to be extremely selective to find good bets in allowance races and if, as a bettor, I have to pass almost every race, I would lose interest in the game.

Agree 100%.

[no breathalyzer]

If claiming races were eliminated I'm not sure if I'd continue to bet horses. Maiden claiming and restricted claiming races, like N2L and N3L, or even the time restricted claiming races, are my most profitable races (along with MSW races).

Generally speaking, allowance races are not good betting races because of the fact that the condition is not precise. For instance, NW3 other than maiden, claiming, or starter. The NW3 doesn't mean much because there could be horses in the race that have 12 wins. You have to be extremely selective to find good bets in allowance races and if, as a bettor, I have to pass almost every race, I would lose interest in the game.
these have become by far the most profitable for me as well

[pandy]

I've told this story before, but one of the best things that ever happened to me as a bettor and handicapper was when I bet on a horse in a contentious NW3 Allowance race at Saratoga. This was probably 15 years ago or so. The race The horse was 3-1. Halfway through the race, the horse was right in contention but in a tight pack when I got an epiphany...which was, "why in the hell would anyone bet any horse at 3-1 in this type of a field, and why am I betting it?"

That changed my theory of finding good bets entirely. Since then, I rarely bet "non winners other than" races. That being said, I like true condition races like N2L where every horse only has one win.

That was also when I started looking at other tracks instead of just betting one circuit...more opportunities. If you're good at betting certain types of races, say maiden races, you may as well check out as many as you can so you don't miss any good bets.

[Redboard]

True story - back in the 70's, Finger Lakes put in a rule that if a horse had not finished in the money, 1-2-3, in any of it's last 6 races, it was not eligible to run.

Very quickly, the entries took such a major hit the rule was rescinded.


Why not a condition where no one finished in the money, 1-2-3, in any of it's last 6 races?

Wouldn't get any 3/5's in that baby.

[pandy]

Why not a condition where no one finished in the money, 1-2-3, in any of it's last 6 races?

Wouldn't get any 3/5's in that baby.


You would have to be extremely creative to do away with claiming races. It will never happen, but I guess it could be done without destroying the sport, but you would have to have a lot more conditions.

[classhandicapper]

I don't think the core problem is the classification system. IMO, it's that once a horse's form starts declining due to an accumulation of injuries or age, the standards for allowing him to continue to run are too loose.

It certainly appears that there is a difference between being sound enough to get past the vet and run and doing what is in the horse's best interests for his long term health once he starts getting older or starts to decline due to accumulated minor injuries.

I understand the economic pressures, but maybe if you are so worried about the bills and squeezing every last drop out of a horse you should not own racehorses to begin with. (or even be allowed to own racehorses)

[macguy]

Why not a condition where no one finished in the money, 1-2-3, in any of it's last 6 races?

Wouldn't get any 3/5's in that baby.

I think Hastings Park did a few of those at the end of last year.
Kinda gave the races a feeling of horsemen's welfare.

[classhandicapper]

I don't think the core problem is the classification system. IMO, it's that once a horse's form starts declining due to an accumulation of injuries or age, the standards for allowing him to continue to run are too loose.

It certainly appears that there is a difference between being sound enough to get past the vet and run and doing what is in the horse's best interests for his long term health once he starts getting older or starts to decline due to accumulated minor injuries.

I understand the economic pressures, but maybe if you are so worried about the bills and squeezing every last drop out of a horse you should not own racehorses to begin with. (or even be allowed to own racehorses)

Now that I think about it, this situation reminds me a lot of boxing.

[bello]

On the other hand...This horse My Adonis may be in a very good place and quite lucky.

The horse is older....may or may not be infirm, may be just slowing down or not eager to compete as hard as he was when younger. Now he is up at Finger Lakes where the competition is easier. Reminds me of when I joined a Golden Boys basketball league when I could no longer compete with the youngsters but still loved the game and the competition, just didn't have the skills I once had.

And what is the alternative for My Adonis, the kill pen?

Looks to me like her current trainer Amber Cobb ( who I do not know) has listed horses in the past for adoption or a new "job".

Not a bad alternative for a horse getting older.

http://fingerlakesfinesttbs.com/