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Partsnut
06-27-2016, 09:41 AM
I haven't heard anything lately about the Pace Of The Race Software.
Is this on the back burner?
Is a future release forth coming?
Possibly I may have missed the latest update.
Please fill me in.

Dave Schwartz
06-27-2016, 10:49 AM
If you mean, Pace Makes the Race, it is back to being developed again. I have hired a new programmer and he's in the process of getting re-started with it.

Dave

Boulder
06-27-2016, 01:07 PM
Dave,

Any Idea when it might be available?

Dave Schwartz
06-27-2016, 02:14 PM
I am very disappointed in the entire process. I must say that if it comes at all, possibly towards the end of the year.

I have redesigned the project, removing the connections to HSH and making it just a no-data product.

Please understand that funding an all-but-free-get-the-money-back-someday-somehow is a very difficult endeavor.

I am really working at this.

It is about an 800-hour project.

PaceAdvantage
06-27-2016, 05:30 PM
No-data product?

Dave Schwartz
06-27-2016, 07:05 PM
Yes. That was the original design of the software.

It is a form of manual entry, where you capture the entries/program from somewhere and enter whatever data you want to use.

In the case of a pace handicapping approach, one would (logically) have to enter some pace line information. In the case of more factor-based approaches, one would enter data in other ways.

For example, in an approach that was using ranks, you'd have to pick from 1st, 2nd, 3rd, front-half, rear-half.

Another example - my favorite - would be a Fuzzy Handicapping approach where one would designate each horse to be:

Excellent (5)
Good (4)
Average (3)
Fair (2)
Poor (1)

In an approach such as this one, the scale is open at the top. Thus, even though "5" is where most horses would be, in a race where Chrome was entered against non-winners of 2 lifetime he might deserve a "9."

The ultimate goal is to build a program where the inputs could be imported in the shape of probabilities, even after being exported from some other program!

Lots of possibilities. That's what I design. But this time I am trying to start the data needs on a much lower level: just whatever you want to use.

The question, of course, becomes, "How do I monetize such a program in order to cover its cost and make a profit?" That is a valid question. Originally I had planned on a subscription model, and that could still happen. The real issue with that model is that horseplayers are famous for not liking subscriptions.

I have some other ideas, but am always open to new ones.

mikesal57
06-27-2016, 08:06 PM
Dave..

You say its a 800 hour job....at about $25/HR...its comes to $20,000

You have to be real honest with yourself and ask can I make that back?

Without seeing anything , there are 2 reg flags in reading with what you said..

One you mentioned..subscription...people just want what they want...no more than what they use..a simple drf download

The other is "manual" ...once I hear manual entries ...its over!!
You can go just so far till your done inputting stuff...

This is just my opinion and I'm not being an ass...just straight with you

Mike

Partsnut
06-27-2016, 08:29 PM
Dave,

It's unfortunate that you had such difficulty with the project.
I'm sure your intentions were of the best and you were trying to provide a quality product.
Sometimes things just don't work out.
I guess it's just like horse racing.
Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.
Oh well.

I was looking forward to your release.
Hopefully, the project will be feasable at a future date.
Good luck. Keep me in the loop.

Dave Schwartz
06-27-2016, 09:08 PM
Dave..

You say its a 800 hour job....at about $25/HR...its comes to $20,000

You have to be real honest with yourself and ask can I make that back?

Without seeing anything , there are 2 reg flags in reading with what you said..

One you mentioned..subscription...people just want what they want...no more than what they use..a simple drf download

The other is "manual" ...once I hear manual entries ...its over!!
You can go just so far till your done inputting stuff...

This is just my opinion and I'm not being an ass...just straight with you

Mike

I really wish I could get a reliable programmer for $25 per hour. More like $40-$60. If you pay less you get a guy that will take 4 times as long, not finish, and leave as soon as he gets a $40 job.

My biggest issue is that I cannot afford ME.

re: Manual Entry
I encourage you to not think of it this way.

This program is designed as an Optimizer of whatever you are doing now.

I seriously do not care what program a player is using now - including HSH. The end result can always be optimized.

Think, instead, that someone is using a piece of software that produces picks (or they are handicapping by hand) and the end result of that handicapping winds up in the optimizer.


Dave

PS: We've got a new guy on the forum who has recently released his own software. Let's not get too involved here with my software that is currently not much more than vaporware. Maybe its time will come.

mikesal57
06-27-2016, 09:42 PM
This program is designed as an Optimizer of whatever you are doing now.

I seriously do not care what program a player is using now - including HSH. The end result can always be optimized.

Think, instead, that someone is using a piece of software that produces picks (or they are handicapping by hand) and the end result of that handicapping winds up in the optimizer.


Dave

PS: We've got a new guy on the forum who has recently released his own software. Let's not get too involved here with my software that is currently not much more than vaporware. Maybe its time will come.

Got it...its like an Advanced Monty to what I have now...

OK...let me go bash that other guy..

Mike

SandyW
06-29-2016, 12:28 PM
Manual input, didn't we do that 15 years ago??? You stay up to 3:00 AM doing all the work and then it rains. Been there, done that, not for me.
Way to many tracks running these days for manual input.
It is very tough to go backwards in time.

mikesal57
06-29-2016, 12:37 PM
Manual input, didn't we do that 15 years ago??? You stay up to 3:00 AM doing all the work and then it rains. Been there, done that, not for me.
Way to many tracks running these days for manual input.
It is very tough to go backwards in time.


Its not like that...read carefully post #9

mike

traveler
07-02-2016, 12:46 AM
Seems like a lot of time and effort to throw away thousands of dollars on a product for a very limited market. You got to know when to fold 'em.

traynor
07-02-2016, 11:14 AM
I really wish I could get a reliable programmer for $25 per hour. More like $40-$60. If you pay less you get a guy that will take 4 times as long, not finish, and leave as soon as he gets a $40 job.


I don't understand this at all, unless it is an exploratory project (for which someone other than a programmer should be doing the work). Basically, the only time it is worthwhile to hire a programmer is when the end result is clearly defined (including the interim steps necessary to generate that end result). Until that point is reached, one needs an analyst and/or designer, not a programmer.

Especially in the price range you cite above, most programmers expect (and absolutely need) a crystal clear objective, and at the absolute minimum, detailed flow charts and pseudocode indicating how that objective is to be achieved.

I understand that you know all this already, and my comments are intended for other readers who may make no distinctions about what programmers actually do. Few things are more costly than hiring a programmer on an hourly basis to produce something only vaguely defined. If the project is clearly defined, so is the cost--before the first line of (contract) code is written. If the project is not clearly defined enough to get a delivered bid price that is guaranteed to meet specific criteria, it is still in the initial design phase, not the programmer stage.

Programmers love hourly rate open-ended, vaguely defined fishing expeditions. Especially SCRUM or Extreme (pairs) programmers. Lots of flurry and "incremental deliverables" with little (if any) real desire (or motivation) to actually complete the project. The IT equivalent of a "cost plus" construction or remodeling project. No one, except the person or entity hiring the work done, has any incentive to do much more than continue milking the cash cow.

Dave Schwartz
07-02-2016, 05:21 PM
Oh, there's a plan. Not "open ended" as you called it.

traynor
07-04-2016, 11:43 AM
Oh, there's a plan. Not "open ended" as you called it.

In addition to a number of contract developer employment (and bidding) sites (at which one can post RFPs and get numerous bids from developers for specific--as in "not open ended fishing expedition"--projects), one of the most useful sources I have discovered is Craigslist. In Buenos Aires. In English. Santiago (Chile) is a close second.

In head-to-head comparisons of specific projects, the TCO is typically less than a third, and often a fourth or less of what the same project/modules/components cost with local developers. I have located and used various developers (from Argentina) for various projects over the years, with very satisfying results. Skill levels easily match or exceed that of local developers.

Because a LOT of programming is repetitious and prime candidate for boilerplate, you may find that farming out sections (components, modules, partials), if not the complete project, would be more efficient.

Dave Schwartz
07-04-2016, 12:35 PM
Traynor,

Thanks for your input.

The purpose of this thread was not to discuss how I should manage this project.

The purpose was merely to inform interested parties that it may actually happen.

I actually had a couple of people come forward and offer their services. One in particular is a very enticing offer.


Dave

traynor
07-05-2016, 10:02 AM
Traynor,

Thanks for your input.

The purpose of this thread was not to discuss how I should manage this project.

The purpose was merely to inform interested parties that it may actually happen.

I actually had a couple of people come forward and offer their services. One in particular is a very enticing offer.


Dave

I look forward with anticipation (as I am sure many others do) to your successful completion of this very interesting project. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor.

DeltaLover
07-05-2016, 11:40 AM
I don't understand this at all, unless it is an exploratory project (for which someone other than a programmer should be doing the work). Basically, the only time it is worthwhile to hire a programmer is when the end result is clearly defined (including the interim steps necessary to generate that end result). Until that point is reached, one needs an analyst and/or designer, not a programmer.

Especially in the price range you cite above, most programmers expect (and absolutely need) a crystal clear objective, and at the absolute minimum, detailed flow charts and pseudocode indicating how that objective is to be achieved.

I understand that you know all this already, and my comments are intended for other readers who may make no distinctions about what programmers actually do. Few things are more costly than hiring a programmer on an hourly basis to produce something only vaguely defined. If the project is clearly defined, so is the cost--before the first line of (contract) code is written. If the project is not clearly defined enough to get a delivered bid price that is guaranteed to meet specific criteria, it is still in the initial design phase, not the programmer stage.

Programmers love hourly rate open-ended, vaguely defined fishing expeditions. Especially SCRUM or Extreme (pairs) programmers. Lots of flurry and "incremental deliverables" with little (if any) real desire (or motivation) to actually complete the project. The IT equivalent of a "cost plus" construction or remodeling project. No one, except the person or entity hiring the work done, has any incentive to do much more than continue milking the cash cow.

What you are describing here is not very fashionable any more. The old cascade model, where "analysts" used to struggle for long periods of time trying to "define" the solution in terms of blueprints and documentation has been abandoned and substituted by lighter methodologies like agile, scrum, xp etc.

The distinction of analyst - programmer seems to no longer exist as the modern developer tries to fulfil both roles. The emerge of the "full stack developer" is exactly this, especially in smaller shops and start-ups, developers are responsible for the whole development cycle and also for tasks like continuous builds, testing and QA. Even the role of classical System Admin is currently under the umbrella of the developer, and this is exactly what we mean by a devop developer today.

Of course a professional developer with the ability to serve as a full stack devop, will not even consider a consulting job paying only $60 per hour. Rates are much higher...