Absolute Bull FL2

[Light]

In the 2nd race @ FL, I bet against the 3/5 who had $5000 to show. I bet the 2nd choice to show who had only $900 to show. The big favorite hops at the start on his own and finishes out of the money while my horse wins. Two bombs come 2nd and 3rd in this 6 horse field. They make an inquiry and there is nothing there but the stewards rule this big favorite a "non starter". There is no reason given and all wagers are refunded on this big favorite. My show comes back a miserly $2.30.

Two weeks ago I also bet against a big favorite in the show pool @ EMD and it was the same exact scenario. Hops at the start on his own and and is declared a non starter after finishing out of the money.

So here is the existential question. Would they have declared either of these horses non starters if they won? Absolutely not.

This is one of the low life manipulations that track officials put on their own customers as a thank you for your patronage.

[cj]

Don't tracks lose money when a horse is declared a non starter?

[therussmeister]

Don't tracks lose money when a horse is declared a non starter?
Especially an odds-on favourite.

[whodoyoulike]

What were the reasons these two horses were declared non-starters?

I think there's only been a couple since I've been watching races and can't recall the reasons for those instances. I thought one of the standard reasons is a gate malfunction or something related to the gate.

[MONEY]

I think tracks make more money (in most cases) when the favorite wins or finishes in the money because of breakage. The more winning tickets the tracks sell the more breakage the tracks collect.

Now in this case, eliminating the money that was bet on #2, probably cost Finger Lakes a little cash. I'm not smart enough to do the math.

[moneyandland]

What were the reasons these two horses were declared non-starters?

I think there's only been a couple since I've been watching races and can't recall the reasons for those instances. I thought one of the standard reasons is a gate malfunction or something related to the gate.

Today at FL the starter clearly had a hold of the horse still when the gate opened, easy call by stewards

[Light]

Don't tracks lose money when a horse is declared a non starter?

The only thing they lose is the handle of course, but I believe the reason why they declared this horse and the other horse at Emd a non stater is because there was well connected money bet on the big favorite to show. Someone well connected to the management covered their ass if the horse ran out. I play show bets mostly and it looks like someone had $2k to $3k to show on this horse. Also note that the people who bet my horse to win had 5/2 odds on him when the gates opened. They got $3.70 on the win after refunds on the big favorite. Today I should have got $4.60 to show on my horse and I got $2.30. At Emd I had the exacta which was paying $36 for $1 and when they declared the big favorite a non starter I got $18 for the $1 exacta. So besides the handle, the tracks make sure they don't lose money by taking it out of the bettor's pockets.

If the gate doesn't open properly or the gate handler doesn't release the horse properly I have no problem declaring the horse a non starter. But when they can't give me a reason, to which Tony Calo had none, and I can't see one on the replay it's way too fishy. Many horses hop at the start and they are rarely declared non starters. I now have 2 horses in 2 weeks with big show money, and no reason given or seen for declaring them non starters. You don't have to be Sherlock to figure it out.

[Light]

Today at FL the starter clearly had a hold of the horse still when the gate opened, easy call by stewards

Watch the head on, on TS and you can clearly see the starter is clear of the horse, not even touching him.

[Tom]

$2.30 at Finger Lakes is pretty good. :rolleyes:

[Light]

I know.

[whodoyoulike]

... I now have 2 horses in 2 weeks with big show money, and no reason given or seen for declaring them non starters. You don't have to be Sherlock to figure it out.

We used to call this "bad racing luck". And, if it happens to you a lot then let me know which horse you like so I will avoid them until this passes.

[johnhannibalsmith]

My video feed of the FL head-on looks like a 3-bit Coleco game but it appeared that the horse was getting light up front for a few seconds and then just as the gate opened and the asst. starter did what he should to keep the horse in line, head straight, may have even had the left ear, but it was just bad timing that he got a good hold as the gate opened. If anything the way the two was acting I'm a little surprised the starter kicked it since it never looked as though he was fully settled.

If they had left it stand there would be a billion times as many complaints that they deliberately got the horse off bad and the stewards bet on it and all that nonsense so under the circumstances and based on what I see - no problem with that decision.

edited - I've watched it again a few times and going to amend the part about the starter kicking it when he did. He took a shot when the horse came down for a second that he could catch them and it was probably the right call to go. The horse just didn't cooperate.

[SuperPickle]

Watch the head on, on TS and you can clearly see the starter is clear of the horse, not even touching him.


So I just watched the head on and simply put nothing you wrote in any of your posts is accurate.

First, off the horse didn't stumble. He reared straight up in the air.

Second, when he rears you can see the assistant starter still has him in his hand. On the slow mo you can watch the guy clearly releases the horse a couple seconds after the field breaks.

Third, stewards always ask the assistant starter on these. Being that they declared him a non-starter I can assure the guy told them he held him. And the video reflects that.

Fourth, I'm not 100% sure but different states have different rules on this but NY is one of the more conservative ones. Some states let them count if they cause their own trouble. New York I believe is if the guy is still holding the horse for any reason its a refund.

Fifth, This refund cost the track more money than it cost you. Your accusation lacks any motive. Are they altering the outcome to lose money?

Six, Didn't you still cash? Yeah it was less but you cashed, right? You didn't lose?

[Light]

Well, I've had much worse luck than this and if as some of you say that the horse was held then so be it. I didn't see that and wonder why Tony Calo wouldn't announce that the horse was held by the starter if that was the case? Why is it such a secret, especially to those that got significantly lower payouts in WPS,ex,and tris? I wrote FL customer service. Maybe I will get an answer. Fortunately I got compensated for this bs with my next 2 bets. And as I said before, if the horse won, it probably would not be declared a non starter. I was not surprised when either of these odds on horses broke poorly because I knew they had peaked in form and were going into a downward form cycle. And these gate problems is what I see at times with these type of false favorites who are starting a downward form cycle. I hope this isn't some new trend of declaring certain horses with a lot of show money as non starters when they flop.

[RXB]

That horse reared a split second before the gate opened and was obviously being restrained as a result by the gate crew member. I don't know how anybody watching the head-on replay could argue otherwise.

[BIGTKLO]

[QUOTE= I didn't see that and wonder why Tony Calo wouldn't announce that the horse was held by the starter if that was the case.

All I was told by the stewards was that the horse had been declared a non starter. I waited for some other explanation but nothing else was said.

[Light]

One last point I'd like to make about these type of instances is that I really doubt a gate starter can impede a horse out the gate. First the horse is 1200 pounds of muscle. The starter is maybe 150-200 pounds of so so muscle. There is a jockey telling the horse to go. If a starter holds onto a horse in some form, he is going to get yanked out of the starting gate or his arm is going to get yanked out of its socket. It's the human not the horse who will be impeded.

In this case the starter was behind the horse at his butt. What can he possibly hold onto there besides his tail which he did not? He was pushing down on the horses butt with one hand while holding onto the gate and balancing himself with another to try to settle him. They want me to believe that this gate starter can hold a horse back in the gate with one hand on his smooth hind that has nothing to grab onto. Right. And I have a bridge to sell you.

There was another horse I played against last night at Canterbury. Again odds on, and this time I didn't have to wait for the bs that he is a non starter. He flipped in the gate as it was about to open and was scratched. These horses who have peaked and about to throw in a clunker are assumed to be the winners or hit the board by the stewards and if they don't get out the gate it must be the superhuman gate starter who can hold a horse back with one hand despite the jock on the horses back telling him to go. They know nothing about form. All three of these horses (FL, Emd, Cby) I have mentioned now had the same nervousness in the gate because they were about to go off form. The horses knew it but not the humans.

These type of horses cause their own problems. The gate starters merely try to keep them calm. To blame the gate starter for horses hopping in the air is a myth. But it is a convenient myth for racetracks to sell their customers when they deem necessary. I never received a response from FL for my inquiry into the reason the horse was scratched. Doesn't surprise me. Because they don't have a legitimate one that would stand up to the laws of nature.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...

In this case the starter was behind the horse at his butt. ...

Your video feed must be way worse than even mine.

[Hambletonian]

One last point I'd like to make about these type of instances is that I really doubt a gate starter can impede a horse out the gate. First the horse is 1200 pounds of muscle. The starter is maybe 150-200 pounds of so so muscle. There is a jockey telling the horse to go. If a starter holds onto a horse in some form, he is going to get yanked out of the starting gate or his arm is going to get yanked out of its socket. It's the human not the horse who will be impeded.

In this case the starter was behind the horse at his butt. What can he possibly hold onto there besides his tail which he did not? He was pushing down on the horses butt with one hand while holding onto the gate and balancing himself with another to try to settle him. They want me to believe that this gate starter can hold a horse back in the gate with one hand on his smooth hind that has nothing to grab onto. Right. And I have a bridge to sell you.

There was another horse I played against last night at Canterbury. Again odds on, and this time I didn't have to wait for the bs that he is a non starter. He flipped in the gate as it was about to open and was scratched. These horses who have peaked and about to throw in a clunker are assumed to be the winners or hit the board by the stewards and if they don't get out the gate it must be the superhuman gate starter who can hold a horse back with one hand despite the jock on the horses back telling him to go. They know nothing about form. All three of these horses (FL, Emd, Cby) I have mentioned now had the same nervousness in the gate because they were about to go off form. The horses knew it but not the humans.

These type of horses cause their own problems. The gate starters merely try to keep them calm. To blame the gate starter for horses hopping in the air is a myth. But it is a convenient myth for racetracks to sell their customers when they deem necessary. I never received a response from FL for my inquiry into the reason the horse was scratched. Doesn't surprise me. Because they don't have a legitimate one that would stand up to the laws of nature.


Really, just stop already. Your theories are embarrassingly horrific, and the fact that you believe them and still bet on horse racing, well, I am mostly speechless.

Starters can and do impede horses every day, mostly due to the fault of the horses, but anything that leads to a horse not being alert and ready at the start and pointed straight ahead is going to cost them.

A good gate crew is worth their weight in gold.

I was at Grants Pass once and witnessed what had to be the worst gate crew in history. They took so long to load that every other race (mainly QHs) had a late scratch after a horse got agitated and reared up, fell over backwards or otherwise threw a massive temper tantrum, occasionally kicking their neighbors leading to more scratches. One guy literally got straight behind a reluctant loader and tried to push him into the gate, and for a moment I wondered what the life insurance situation was for these dudes.

A good gate crew and a good starter makes for good racing.

[TheGarMan]

As an off topic "side note" I am always intrigued by the gate starting process....

As the load in is finished, it seems there are always 2-3 assistants yelling "NO", "NO", "NO" , and in a split second the bell rings and they are off... :D

My guess is that there is a lot happening in there behind the scenes...

It is truly a wonder those guys don't get hurt more often...

[johnhannibalsmith]

...

It is truly a wonder those guys don't get hurt more often...

Most underappreciated people on the racetrack in the afternoon. Nobody ever has a word to say about all of the riders that they sacrifice themselves for and horses that they keep from killing themselves, but can't wait to blame them for the rare event that they can't overcome with perfection.

[Light]

Really, just stop already. Your theories are embarrassingly horrific, and the fact that you believe them and still bet on horse racing, well, I am mostly speechless.

LOL, Get a grip. It's only a horse forum.

Starters can and do impede horses every day,

Be specific. Tell me how they hold a 1200 lb animal from taking off when the jock says go without getting killed or seriously injured.


I was at Grants Pass once and witnessed what had to be the worst gate crew in history. They took so long to load that every other race (mainly QHs) had a late scratch after a horse got agitated and reared up, fell over backwards or otherwise threw a massive temper tantrum, occasionally kicking their neighbors leading to more scratches. One guy literally got straight behind a reluctant loader and tried to push him into the gate, and for a moment I wondered what the life insurance situation was for these dudes.

A good gate crew and a good starter makes for good racing.

That does not address anything I am saying regarding gate crews allegedly impeding a horses start.

[Light]

Your video feed must be way worse than even mine.

I just watched it again in case I 'm wrong but there is no other gate starter there except the one standing in the back of the gate of the horse in question. As the horses leave it is clear that all the gate starters are one per gate at the back.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I just watched it again in case I 'm wrong but there is no other gate starter there except the one standing in the back of the gate of the horse in question. As the horses leave it is clear that all the gate starters are one per gate at the back.

I'm not going to argue with you. I'm actually wondering if we are even watching the same race at this point. But I can't really think of a place that has the "headers" head the horse at the ass end.

Edited just to mention that for they most part the step back from the pontoons towards the tail and jump off there after they are released so maybe it just appears to you as though they are at the rear of the gate when it opens.

[Light]

I don't know what you are seeing either. The head on clearly shows only 1 stater at the back and nobody is straightening this horses head out in the front because there is nobody there. The extra gate crew guys you may see are BEHIND the gate, not inside. look closely. This is FL June 22 2nd race FYI

[johnhannibalsmith]

I don't know what you are seeing either. The head on clearly shows only 1 stater at the back and nobody is straightening this horses head out in the front because there is nobody there. The extra gate crew guys you may see are BEHIND the gate, not inside. look closely. This is FL June 22 2nd race FYI

Yeah we are watching the same race. I see a horse that is light up front, tossing his head, and the header does a good job getting him straight for a second and the starter kicks it. At the moment he hits the button, the horse goes up again and it even appears to me, though I can't say with certainty, that the header has a hold of the left ear when the gate opens. I say this only to demonstrate just how wildly differently two people can see something and use that as my segue into departing from this exercise.

[appistappis]

I'm pretty sure that finger lakes gets guys from mcdonalds on their lunch breaks to work the gate.

[the little guy]

I'm pretty sure that finger lakes gets guys from mcdonalds on their lunch breaks to work the gate.

There will be a more thoughtless comment made on this board this year, but it won't be easy.

Working the gate is extraordinarily difficult and dangerous. Have a little respect please.

[green80]

[QUOTE=Hambletonian]Really, just stop already. Your theories are embarrassingly horrific, and the fact that you believe them and still bet on horse racing, well, I am mostly speechless.

That seems to sum it all up.

[castaway01]

Yeah we are watching the same race. I see a horse that is light up front, tossing his head, and the header does a good job getting him straight for a second and the starter kicks it. At the moment he hits the button, the horse goes up again and it even appears to me, though I can't say with certainty, that the header has a hold of the left ear when the gate opens. I say this only to demonstrate just how wildly differently two people can see something and use that as my segue into departing from this exercise.

It helps a lot when one of those people has money bet on what they're watching. It makes you imagine things that aren't there.